Law School Discussion

Deciding Where to Go => Acceptances, Denials, and Waitlists => Topic started by: latinlord on August 11, 2005, 03:56:46 PM

Title: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: latinlord on August 11, 2005, 03:56:46 PM
Well yep that was me!! ( I just found this forum today) I was that guy, the guy who you never want to be! I got 11 denial letters all through out a 9month period. My depression has grown more and more. I graduated from my undergrad this year WCU magna cum laude Spanish major. (you would think it means anything). Well I am hoping that this time the lack of extra summer classes I was taking at the same time of my LSAT helps me do better. AT the time I was bombarded with regular summer classes and a Kaplan course that I felt rushed in anyway. I took the June 04 exam and bombed it (135), I had no idea it was worth as much as it has been. I thought my GPA would keep me afloat and get me into at least 1 of the schools I sent applications to. I think I sent applications to school that were just too high up for me, hoping that by some god they would see past the one LSAT number and look more into me.
  Well I decided to finish up the year and get a tutor from Kaplan to help me study for the October test. This time I won't be applying to any real extreme schools. Only the ones near my home, which sadly has basically all high ranking schools. I live in PA, so Villanova, temple, Penn, Dickenson, Rutgers, Maryland, etc. are all near me and I can't get into one. I will reapply to Villanova b/c they don't average the LSAT and Widner too because they are a 4th tier school. But mainly i'm looking for something, anything that I could get into.  My search has led me all throughout the country to a North Carolina school, Texas school, Florida, Louisiana etc. If any of you guys have any clue of any schools that I might have a chance of getting into that would help. I just hope that my new LSAt score isn't anything close to what I got before. But as of right now i'm just studying as much as I can to get my LSAt up and the have the older one be only a distant memory. I wish I had half the luck of so many of you all, I see people getting into awesome schools, I wish I could have that. But hey, sometimes life just isn't fair. But hey, maybe I can be a success story too. 

Thanks for listening I know it was long, I just needed someone to hear about my struggles. Ones that are basically a lot worse than yours, but if anyone out there has the same as me. Please do tell, letting it out helps.
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: Ann Coulter on August 11, 2005, 04:15:56 PM
tke a year off to work, travel, join Americorp, anything to help you move on with life. Then start studying your butt off for next time. discover your strengths an dweaknesses regarding the LSAT and go from there.
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: Denny Crane on August 11, 2005, 05:55:40 PM
Latinlord:

If you're the same latinlord from LSN, then it is no surprise you got rejected everywhere.  Your LSAT score is WAY too low for the schools you were applying (I know your parents made you apply to Harvard, etc), but you needed to aim WAY lower than what you ended up doing.  Did you discuss your application with your pre-law advisor (does your school have one?)?  I know it sucks to be judged by the factors that weaken you (ie: your lsat score) than by the factors that you think truly show who you are, but the LSAT is a fairly good indicator of first year performance in law school, and based on your numbers, you'd get slaughtered.  Take the test again.  Study like hell for it.  If you can, take a prep course.  It would do wonders for you.  If you can't take it again, then I'd look at the data from the LSAC to see where you'd be competitive.  Based on the LSN numbers, you would have the best shots at Cooley (I don't mean that as a joke), Pontifical Catholic, and Inter-American law schools.  If these don't match your goals, then you need to take the lsat again, and do significantly better (by at least 15 points for schools that don't average LSAT scores, and by about 35 points for schools that do).  Sorry man.  This situation sucks.

The lsac calculator, go to the following link and click on "LSAC Data Search":

http://officialguide.lsac.org/docs/cgi-bin/home.asp
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: latinlord on August 11, 2005, 06:13:49 PM
Thanks for the comments, Yea I know I was crazy to shoot for some of those schools. But I seriously was didn't have a clue how much my low LSAT would distroy my 3.65 GPA. Also yea i'm working with kaplan, I got a tutor and am already scheduled for the October LSAT. I will be applying to Cooly among other schools. I mean I can still hope to transfer, right? I really like the idea of asking for Part time also, I will definately do that. I think that I heard that I can add an extra request asking that they consider me for Part time as well if I don't get into fulltime. Can I do that?? Also does anyone know of a list of schools that doesn't average the LSAT? Thanks everyone
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: Denny Crane on August 11, 2005, 06:43:20 PM
You can transfer up, but only if two things happen: 1.) you do very well during your first year at whatever college you matriculated to (this implies law review, top 15%, in many cases top 10% or 5%, depending on the school you're transferring to) and 2.) that your stats (undergrad GPA, lsat score) are strong enough to have made you competitive as a first-year applicant.  You'll have some leway if you have a relatively low lsat score, but not enough to get you into harvard if your lsat was sub-165 (sub-170 really).  Just do well wherever you end up at, and aim at schools that are ranked above it within 10-20 positions (it is a little difficult to jump tiers, but certainly possible).  I can't think of any schools that don't average lsat scores, but I think Penn is one of them assuming you score at least 5 points above your previous score (in your case, you'll need to improve your lsat score by at least 30 points to be competitive for Penn and comparable schools.  If those schools average your score, you'll have no chance at them unless they feel very generous).  Good luck with your second lsat exam and your second round of law school apps.  It sucks you have to go through this again.  Hopefully this time will work out for you better.
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: twarga on August 11, 2005, 07:29:26 PM
This time I won't be applying to any real extreme schools. Only the ones near my home, which sadly has basically all high ranking schools. I live in PA, so Villanova, temple, Penn, Dickenson, Rutgers, Maryland, etc. are all near me and I can't get into one. I will reapply to Villanova b/c they don't average the LSAT and Widner too because they are a 4th tier school. But mainly i'm looking for something, anything that I could get into.  

If you'd applied to Widener like you should have from the start, you'd be packing for school right now instead of belly-aching.  What was your LSAT score?
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: PSUDSL08 on August 11, 2005, 07:52:24 PM
Agree with twarga you should def apply to Widener...may not get into the Delaware campus, but Harrisburg is a possibility. Also, Duquesne University in Pittsburgh will take the highest of your two LSAT scores. You'd probably need a minimum of a 152 to get in there, so study your ass off.
As for transferring, there's a forum on Yahoo that has the stats of those that have transferred to other schools. A girl who went to my T4 scored in the top 5% and got into top schoos, so anything is possible. As for now, study your ass off and accept the fact that you'll be going to a T3 or T4 next year.
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: Denny Crane on August 11, 2005, 07:58:13 PM
Hate to break it to you guys, but he did apply to Widener, and got rejected (yes, his lsat was quite poor, even by widener standards).  Being a URM did not help him.
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: latinlord on August 11, 2005, 09:35:34 PM
 Yea sadly I got denied by Widener DE campus also. I'll probibly try Harrisburg this time too. Bottom line i'm still working on the LSAT, I don't know how I did so bad, the LSAT has control of my freaking soul!Sad thing is that my GPA is higher than most schools average. It is a shame that 4 long years of doing well in a higher instituion means nothing compared to a 1 4hr exam. :(
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: Denny Crane on August 12, 2005, 07:12:27 AM
Sad thing is that my GPA is higher than most schools average. It is a shame that 4 long years of doing well in a higher instituion means nothing compared to a 1 4hr exam. :(

That's exactly how I felt about the SAT when I was applying to college.  I did fine on it, but not as highly as I needed in order to get into all of my top choices.  Luckily I got into one of my top choices, but I was definitely limited by an exam I thought had no bearing on my performance in college.  I know that the LSAT is looked upon more strongly by law schools than the SAT was for colleges, so I'm not taking any chances.  LSAT reigns supreme.
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: d1337 on August 12, 2005, 08:27:33 AM
Latinlord: Did you speak with a prelaw advisor, or consult online sources?  Since you were on LSN, you must not have been completely ignorant of the circumstances. 
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: d1337 on August 12, 2005, 08:28:10 AM
Sad thing is that my GPA is higher than most schools average. It is a shame that 4 long years of doing well in a higher instituion means nothing compared to a 1 4hr exam. :(

That's exactly how I felt about the SAT when I was applying to college.  I did fine on it, but not as highly as I needed in order to get into all of my top choices.  Luckily I got into one of my top choices, but I was definitely limited by an exam I thought had no bearing on my performance in college.  I know that the LSAT is looked upon more strongly by law schools than the SAT was for colleges, so I'm not taking any chances.  LSAT reigns supreme.

SWAT students aren't allowed to complain about ug admissions nor SAT scores. ;D
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: Denny Crane on August 12, 2005, 08:33:09 AM
I owe my life to Swarthmore, no questions asked.  They took a chance on me, and luckily for both of us it paid off.  I know, it's annoying for a Swattie to complain.  But I still stand against my hatred of the SAT (the LSAT, on the other hand, I believe is a fairly accurate measure of what you need to be able to do in order to be successful in law school.  Not 100% accurate, but certainly more than the SAT is).
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: d1337 on August 12, 2005, 08:36:36 AM
Both of the tests kind of suck.  But I think they are one of the best ways to gauge ability/potential.  I agree that the LSAT is better, because it deals with abilities which will definitely be relevant to law school.  I have yet to take a math class in college. 
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: Denny Crane on August 12, 2005, 09:17:02 AM
I also have not taken a math class in college (I vowed never to take math again after high school).  I do see how a background in math might help with the logic games (and to some extent the logical reasoning section), but a class in Logic would be better (duh).  I'm not sure how it is at other schools, but Logic at my school is within the Philosophy department, which means that a humanities major can have the same advantages as a math major, assuming they take logic based classes. 
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: hammer101 on August 12, 2005, 11:22:38 AM
You can transfer up, but only if two things happen: 1.) you do very well during your first year at whatever college you matriculated to (this implies law review, top 15%, in many cases top 10% or 5%, depending on the school you're transferring to) and 2.) that your stats (undergrad GPA, lsat score) are strong enough to have made you competitive as a first-year applicant.  You'll have some leway if you have a relatively low lsat score, but not enough to get you into harvard if your lsat was sub-165 (sub-170 really).  Just do well wherever you end up at, and aim at schools that are ranked above it within 10-20 positions (it is a little difficult to jump tiers, but certainly possible).  I can't think of any schools that don't average lsat scores, but I think Penn is one of them assuming you score at least 5 points above your previous score (in your case, you'll need to improve your lsat score by at least 30 points to be competitive for Penn and comparable schools.  If those schools average your score, you'll have no chance at them unless they feel very generous).  Good luck with your second lsat exam and your second round of law school apps.  It sucks you have to go through this again.  Hopefully this time will work out for you better.

Good advice for the most part, except one thing -- actually, to transfer up you don't have to have an LSAT score on par with admitted students (there are exceptions...but Harvard is the only one I know of). It makes sense if you think about it. The LSAT predicts your law school performance, and once you've earned grades in law school, the LSAT is kind of moot.

Otherwise, solid advice. I agree that in many cases you'll probably need better than top 15% to transfer, though I've heard some schools (Wash U comes to mind) will take you as long as you're at least top 25%.

Oh, and other schools that don't average your LSAT scores include Minnesota, Cornell and Pitt (there are probably many more I can't think of off the top of my head).
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: d1337 on August 12, 2005, 11:48:29 AM
"actually, to transfer up you don't have to have an LSAT score on par with admitted students"

TITCR

Many schools, as evidenced in recent articles about rankings manipulation, will take people with lower numbers because the numbers for transfer students are not factored in the USNWR formula.  These students generate additional revenue, with proven ability to succeed, so they are not a threat to the rankings by a decrease in scores nor an increase in attrition rates.   (NYU is a known example of a school that practices this policy.) 
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: Denny Crane on August 12, 2005, 12:15:44 PM
"actually, to transfer up you don't have to have an LSAT score on par with admitted students"

TITCR

Many schools, as evidenced in recent articles about rankings manipulation, will take people with lower numbers because the numbers for transfer students are not factored in the USNWR formula. These students generate additional revenue, with proven ability to succeed, so they are not a threat to the rankings by a decrease in scores nor an increase in attrition rates. (NYU is a known example of a school that practices this policy.)

Boalt also does this (with regards to GPA more so than LSAT), but they still will not accept you if they think you won't be able to handle the workload.  Luckily, the LSAT is an indicator of first year performance (not second/third years), so if you've shown you can beat what is arguably the hardest year of law school by making law review or being in the top 10% of your class, then you should be good to go with an upward transfer, assuming everything else is in prime condition.
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: d1337 on August 12, 2005, 12:19:27 PM
agreed
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: makotosan on August 12, 2005, 12:31:38 PM
The problem is that when it comes to law school a good GPA for your institution is not necessarily a good GPA compared to the applicant pool. A 3.65 is just average compared to everyone else (trust me, I know, I had a 3.67) because of the level of student applying to law school. That's why they put more stock in the LSAT, the GPA isn't going to help unless it's closer to a 4, and you still would have had problems with a 135. They can pull a 3.65 out of anywhere.
The problem is even if you talk to advisors at your school, not all of them understand the importance of the LSAT. Get kapalan, do TM, do something, and bring that score up! I know it sucks being in the PA area, because most of the PA schools and all of the NJ schools are top 100. But if you can just get that up closer to the 160 range, you'll definitely get in somewhere. Spend the year researching your ass off, make a reasonable list, and study, study, study! ;D
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: DavidSJ on December 14, 2005, 08:08:25 PM
But hey, sometimes life just isn't fair.

You have only yourself to blame...
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: THE BLUE SWEATER on December 27, 2005, 11:36:30 AM
Have you considered the puerto rican law schools?
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: bluegreyeyes on December 27, 2005, 10:25:23 PM
Thanks for the comments, Yea I know I was crazy to shoot for some of those schools. But I seriously was didn't have a clue how much my low LSAT would distroy my 3.65 GPA. Also yea i'm working with kaplan, I got a tutor and am already scheduled for the October LSAT. I will be applying to Cooly among other schools. I mean I can still hope to transfer, right? I really like the idea of asking for Part time also, I will definately do that. I think that I heard that I can add an extra request asking that they consider me for Part time as well if I don't get into fulltime. Can I do that?? Also does anyone know of a list of schools that doesn't average the LSAT? Thanks everyone

i'm not positive, but does Drexel have any sort of law school?
i thought i heard something about that... but maybe it isn't ABA approved yet?
might be something to look into.....?
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: Steve.jd on December 27, 2005, 10:46:00 PM
Thanks for the comments, Yea I know I was crazy to shoot for some of those schools. But I seriously was didn't have a clue how much my low LSAT would distroy my 3.65 GPA. Also yea i'm working with kaplan, I got a tutor and am already scheduled for the October LSAT. I will be applying to Cooly among other schools. I mean I can still hope to transfer, right? I really like the idea of asking for Part time also, I will definately do that. I think that I heard that I can add an extra request asking that they consider me for Part time as well if I don't get into fulltime. Can I do that?? Also does anyone know of a list of schools that doesn't average the LSAT? Thanks everyone

i'm not positive, but does Drexel have any sort of law school?
i thought i heard something about that... but maybe it isn't ABA approved yet?
might be something to look into.....?

Drexel has a school starting next year...its their inaugural year - its not ABA approved, but it will be in a year or two (at most)

By the way guys this thread refers to last cycle....


But hey, sometimes life just isn't fair.

You have only yourself to blame...

Thats a pretty rude thing to say to someone you don't even know...maybe the OP had familial problems that caused stress/hardship/lack of time to study, or maybe just maybe not everyone is as good at standardized tests as you (presumably) are
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: vitaminwater on January 20, 2006, 11:23:46 PM
don't worry latin lord. your time will come. i was once in your position. my practice tests were in the late 130's range and was always very frustrated and depressed. i took a powerscore class, and invested in extra tutoring time to help me with the games sections. took the test in october and got a 154. i know that compared to many people on this board, my score is not all that, but it was good enough for me.
if you can, hire a tutor because i felt that is really what helped me. i also took about a year to prepare/study read the bibles cover to cover.
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: ohstacey on July 17, 2007, 01:08:11 PM
Bump...inspirational thread.... :)

Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: latinlord on July 29, 2007, 12:25:22 PM
Bump...inspirational thread.... :)



lol... this thread was so long ago... i'm amazed it is still around!! Reading it almost brings tears to my eyes.  I'm happy that my story has been so inspirational to them.... I wish all of you luck in your up in comming cycle and hope that you all have the success that I'v had.

Low LSAT means nothing.!! my LSGPA is now a 3.2! top 1/3 of the class!! Beat kids who got over a 160 on the LSAT.. So again! the LSAT MEANS NOTHING!! IT IS JUST A STUPID WAY FOR SCHOOLS TO SEPARATE STUDENTS!! gOOD LUCK TO ALL!!
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: Ender Wiggin on July 29, 2007, 12:32:46 PM
Bump...inspirational thread.... :)



lol... this thread was so long ago... i'm amazed it is still around!! Reading it almost brings tears to my eyes.  I'm happy that my story has been so inspirational to them.... I wish all of you luck in your up in comming cycle and hope that you all have the success that I'v had.

Low LSAT means nothing.!! my LSGPA is now a 3.2! top 1/3 of the class!! Beat kids who got over a 160 on the LSAT.. So again! the LSAT MEANS NOTHING!! IT IS JUST A STUPID WAY FOR SCHOOLS TO SEPARATE STUDENTS!! gOOD LUCK TO ALL!!

No wonder you did poorly on the LSAT.  What makes you think that you can draw a reasonable conclusion about the correlation between LSAT scores and law school success based on one person's experience? 
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: Denny Crane on July 29, 2007, 12:40:56 PM
Bump...inspirational thread.... :)



lol... this thread was so long ago... i'm amazed it is still around!! Reading it almost brings tears to my eyes.  I'm happy that my story has been so inspirational to them.... I wish all of you luck in your up in comming cycle and hope that you all have the success that I'v had.

Low LSAT means nothing.!! my LSGPA is now a 3.2! top 1/3 of the class!! Beat kids who got over a 160 on the LSAT.. So again! the LSAT MEANS NOTHING!! IT IS JUST A STUPID WAY FOR SCHOOLS TO SEPARATE STUDENTS!! gOOD LUCK TO ALL!!

No wonder you did poorly on the LSAT.  What makes you think that you can draw a reasonable conclusion about the correlation between LSAT scores and law school success based on one person's experience? 

Feeling sad because you're afraid your 171 won't guarantee you a spot on law review?
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: Denny Crane on July 29, 2007, 12:48:11 PM
Feeling sad because you're afraid your 171 won't guarantee you a spot on law review?

A 171 statistically means NOTHING at a top school vis-a-vis a single person's performance.

With a 160 or a 179, you might be able to draw some conclusions with a more reasonable margin of error (more so on the lower end).

I know, it just seems like latinlord touched on a nerve with his statement. 
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: Hank Rearden on July 29, 2007, 12:55:28 PM
Bump...inspirational thread.... :)



lol... this thread was so long ago... i'm amazed it is still around!! Reading it almost brings tears to my eyes.  I'm happy that my story has been so inspirational to them.... I wish all of you luck in your up in comming cycle and hope that you all have the success that I'v had.

Low LSAT means nothing.!! my LSGPA is now a 3.2! top 1/3 of the class!! Beat kids who got over a 160 on the LSAT.. So again! the LSAT MEANS NOTHING!! IT IS JUST A STUPID WAY FOR SCHOOLS TO SEPARATE STUDENTS!! gOOD LUCK TO ALL!!

No wonder you did poorly on the LSAT.  What makes you think that you can draw a reasonable conclusion about the correlation between LSAT scores and law school success based on one person's experience? 

Feeling sad because you're afraid your 171 won't guarantee you a spot on law review?

LSAT isn't considered for law review apps?

 ???
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: Denny Crane on July 29, 2007, 12:58:51 PM
LSAT isn't considered for law review apps?

 ???

If only.


Though I have heard of certain law firms asking for LSAT scores, regardless of which schools they went to.
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: Hank Rearden on July 29, 2007, 01:01:59 PM
LSAT isn't considered for law review apps?

 ???

If only.


Though I have heard of certain law firms asking for LSAT scores, regardless of which schools they went to.

Perhaps as a proxy for intelligence, since they can't ask for IQ tests?
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: Denny Crane on July 29, 2007, 01:06:32 PM
LSAT isn't considered for law review apps?

 ???

If only.


Though I have heard of certain law firms asking for LSAT scores, regardless of which schools they went to.

Perhaps as a proxy for intelligence, since they can't ask for IQ tests?

Possible.  I think this happens more for people applying for 1L summer associate positions since you wouldn't have had too much time to develop a consistent academic record. 
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: Ender Wiggin on July 29, 2007, 10:05:16 PM
Bump...inspirational thread.... :)



lol... this thread was so long ago... i'm amazed it is still around!! Reading it almost brings tears to my eyes.  I'm happy that my story has been so inspirational to them.... I wish all of you luck in your up in comming cycle and hope that you all have the success that I'v had.

Low LSAT means nothing.!! my LSGPA is now a 3.2! top 1/3 of the class!! Beat kids who got over a 160 on the LSAT.. So again! the LSAT MEANS NOTHING!! IT IS JUST A STUPID WAY FOR SCHOOLS TO SEPARATE STUDENTS!! gOOD LUCK TO ALL!!

No wonder you did poorly on the LSAT.  What makes you think that you can draw a reasonable conclusion about the correlation between LSAT scores and law school success based on one person's experience? 

Feeling sad because you're afraid your 171 won't guarantee you a spot on law review?

What does my previous post have to do with the law review?  I thought he drew an unwarranted conclusion, and got a little too excited about being so wrong.  Do you agree with him that there is no correlation between LSAT scores and law school success?  Do you think that one person's experience is enough evidence to draw such a conclusion?

I don't think my LSAT score guarantees me anything.  If I get a spot on law review, it will be because I worked hard and wrote well.
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: Ender Wiggin on July 29, 2007, 10:21:36 PM
Bump...inspirational thread.... :)



lol... this thread was so long ago... i'm amazed it is still around!! Reading it almost brings tears to my eyes.  I'm happy that my story has been so inspirational to them.... I wish all of you luck in your up in comming cycle and hope that you all have the success that I'v had.

Low LSAT means nothing.!! my LSGPA is now a 3.2! top 1/3 of the class!! Beat kids who got over a 160 on the LSAT.. So again! the LSAT MEANS NOTHING!! IT IS JUST A STUPID WAY FOR SCHOOLS TO SEPARATE STUDENTS!! gOOD LUCK TO ALL!!

No wonder you did poorly on the LSAT.  What makes you think that you can draw a reasonable conclusion about the correlation between LSAT scores and law school success based on one person's experience? 


Now now, ender, you're bigger than that...   ;)

<----apologizes and humbly asks for forgiveness.  I was actually trying to be funny, but it didn't really come off that way. 
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: MachuPicchu on July 30, 2007, 01:23:44 PM
Matthies, you raise some interesting points. Beyond merely studying potential correlations between amount of test prep and LS grades, I think the LSAT is due for an overhaul (not the minor "comprehensive reading" changes they've made for the next round of tests). I think the"standardization" conceit needs to be problematized and re-interpreted. Whenever I talk to people from other countries, they express disbelief over "the American system" of standardized multiple choice tests (I elected not to shock them further with the idea of 'Christmas Tree-ing' a test). Many countries' medical, law and other professional schools rely much more heavily on essay-writing, which both they and I believe can shed a lot more light on an applicant's thought processes, style of analysis, etc.

Essays exams--for example, the AP tests in English Lit or Composition--can be pretty standardized with the use of the same questions for all applicants (they've already eliminated the choice of essays on the new LSAT, from what I've heard), a limited time frame, etc. Graders can be instructed to overlook spelling and grammar and award points using a rubric of sorts that emphasizes analytical pattern, argument making, use of supporting evidence/argument, etc. There can be two or more essay-graders for each essay and rules can be made about averaging the graders' marks if they differ more than, say, two letter /numerical points. And, like an AP Lit exam, a "standard" score can be arrived at.

Admissions committees would not have access to the scored/graded essays like they do with the current unscored ones, because they may unconsciously favor applicants with better spelling/grammar and more sophisticated writing skills.

In fact, I know from experience (a free Law School prep class offered as a promo for a company) that a person who has never been to law school can attempt to write a law-school-type exam based on scenarios, spotting issues, etc. by making use of a simplified list of black letter law pertaining to the essay question's scenario and provided alongside the question. In my proposed system, graders would obviously not expect test-takers to know how to take a law school exam proper; I just want to emphasize that an essay LSAT can be administered in a way that gives a better idea of individual analytical strengths than the current multiple choice system alone. 

Also, to address your point of test prep, I think essays would narrow the gap between those who prepared and those who didn't. The Logic Games, for example, seem to scare a lot of people off the test because they are so different from what most people have experienced in most undergrad exams or courses of study. But we all know that learning a "system" to navigate the games (through an LSAT course or a good book) can dramatically improve a person's games scores. This is where I think your "test prep" argument really holds up.

By giving far more weight to scored essays than to Games, the proposed LSAT could ameliorate the current favoring of "test-preppers" (especially Testmasters, Kaplan, etc. formal courses) over those who could only afford to work through a 25 dollar book or CD ROM on their own.
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: ohstacey on July 30, 2007, 07:37:35 PM
Bump...inspirational thread.... :)



lol... this thread was so long ago... i'm amazed it is still around!! Reading it almost brings tears to my eyes.  I'm happy that my story has been so inspirational to them.... I wish all of you luck in your up in comming cycle and hope that you all have the success that I'v had.

Low LSAT means nothing.!! my LSGPA is now a 3.2! top 1/3 of the class!! Beat kids who got over a 160 on the LSAT.. So again! the LSAT MEANS NOTHING!! IT IS JUST A STUPID WAY FOR SCHOOLS TO SEPARATE STUDENTS!! gOOD LUCK TO ALL!!

Thanks, and I'm glad things have worked out well for you in law school, thanks to your hard work!

Hopefully this thread can give some perspective to others trying to overcome similar odds... :)
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: KD03 on November 20, 2007, 01:08:35 PM
Matthies, you raise some interesting points. Beyond merely studying potential correlations between amount of test prep and LS grades, I think the LSAT is due for an overhaul (not the minor "comprehensive reading" changes they've made for the next round of tests). I think the"standardization" conceit needs to be problematized and re-interpreted. Whenever I talk to people from other countries, they express disbelief over "the American system" of standardized multiple choice tests (I elected not to shock them further with the idea of 'Christmas Tree-ing' a test). Many countries' medical, law and other professional schools rely much more heavily on essay-writing, which both they and I believe can shed a lot more light on an applicant's thought processes, style of analysis, etc.

Essays exams--for example, the AP tests in English Lit or Composition--can be pretty standardized with the use of the same questions for all applicants (they've already eliminated the choice of essays on the new LSAT, from what I've heard), a limited time frame, etc. Graders can be instructed to overlook spelling and grammar and award points using a rubric of sorts that emphasizes analytical pattern, argument making, use of supporting evidence/argument, etc. There can be two or more essay-graders for each essay and rules can be made about averaging the graders' marks if they differ more than, say, two letter /numerical points. And, like an AP Lit exam, a "standard" score can be arrived at.

Admissions committees would not have access to the scored/graded essays like they do with the current unscored ones, because they may unconsciously favor applicants with better spelling/grammar and more sophisticated writing skills.

In fact, I know from experience (a free Law School prep class offered as a promo for a company) that a person who has never been to law school can attempt to write a law-school-type exam based on scenarios, spotting issues, etc. by making use of a simplified list of black letter law pertaining to the essay question's scenario and provided alongside the question. In my proposed system, graders would obviously not expect test-takers to know how to take a law school exam proper; I just want to emphasize that an essay LSAT can be administered in a way that gives a better idea of individual analytical strengths than the current multiple choice system alone. 

Also, to address your point of test prep, I think essays would narrow the gap between those who prepared and those who didn't. The Logic Games, for example, seem to scare a lot of people off the test because they are so different from what most people have experienced in most undergrad exams or courses of study. But we all know that learning a "system" to navigate the games (through an LSAT course or a good book) can dramatically improve a person's games scores. This is where I think your "test prep" argument really holds up.

By giving far more weight to scored essays than to Games, the proposed LSAT could ameliorate the current favoring of "test-preppers" (especially Testmasters, Kaplan, etc. formal courses) over those who could only afford to work through a 25 dollar book or CD ROM on their own.


I think the use of essay grading would be hopelessly subjective and inconsistent.  It would also tend to reward those with better overall education (in forming arguments, writing generally, etc.).  At least the LSAT (and other standardized tests) can ID aptitude even where little or no training has occurred.

God - can you imagine how long it would take LSAC to get scores out if the writing section were graded? heinous, heinous suggestion. The thing should be removed from the test altogether.
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: mycousinvinny13 on February 07, 2013, 07:12:18 PM
Kaplan is an awful test prep. Try a different test prep company after researching how others feel about it and retake.
Anything below a 150 is not going to do you any good unless your a URM.

Keep your head up and try again.
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: CA Law Dean on April 04, 2013, 10:52:28 AM
Idea for California applicants who are terminally wait listed or rejected. O.K. The 2013-2014 cycle is almost over and Plan A isn't working out. Gut check time . . . What is your most important objective? If the answer is becoming a lawyer . . . and not just becoming a "________" law school graduate . . . then it is NOT too late to consider one of the 17 California accredited law schools (such as Monterey College of Law) for Fall 2013. These regional schools are accredited by the State Bar of California, not the ABA. Many of them have very respectable bar pass rates (competitive with the unranked ABA law schools), are a fraction of the cost of the traditional ABA schools, and offer part-time programs so that you can actually begin working in law related jobs to gain relevant experience before graduating. Most have strong ties to the local bench-bar that result in jobs after graduation Of course this is not the path if your goal is to work in a large urban center in a multinational law conglomerate. But if the idea of being a small firm lawyer, DA, Public Defender, Legal Services lawyer, or solo practitioner is what you are after . . .  select one of the California accredited law schools in an area that you might like to live/practice and get an application in . . . right away. Then go visit to see if it fits your goals. Ask hard questions about bar pass rates, costs, job placement, clinical,programs, etc. Most of the non-urban areas of California need lawyers (despite the articles in the national news) and many of them are great places to live and raise a family if you have not already decided to be a big city lawyer.

The biggest limitation is that upon graduation from one of the California accredited law schools you must take (and pass) the California bar exam first. You cannot go directly to another state and sit for their bar exam until you are licensed in California (and some states will require minimum years of practice as well). That is why the option is primarily for those who already know that they want to live and practice in California. Bottom line, if you really want to be a lawyer, make it happen.
Title: Re: What do you do when you get denied by every school you applied to??!
Post by: CA Law Dean on February 07, 2014, 11:21:55 AM
An update on this topic for the 2014 cycle - If you were denied by every school you applied to . . . then you didn't have the right list! In these times of reduced applications to law schools across the country, if you have the passion and desire to earn a law degree (with the focus on EARN), there is no reason that you cannot get into an accredited law school. This doesn't mean that law schools are, or should, take every applicant. However, it does mean that there should be a law school that fits your profile.

For example, Monterey College of Law (disclaimer! where I serve as dean) has a rigorous academic support program for non-traditional students who may need supplemental workshops or tutoring to reach their potential. We are less interested in LSAT scores (a poor predictor) and are willing to consider special circumstances that had a detrimental effect on undergraduate GPA. For our older students who are returning to graduate school with considerable work experience, that undergraduate GPA is sometimes decades old . . . and has no relationship to the current potential of an adult student.

We look at every file from the perspective of evaluating the student's current potential to be successful in the study of law. Maturity, dedication, work ethic, academic passion . . . these are critical aspects of a successful law student.

If you have been denied admission by traditional ABA law schools that use a formula of LSAT/UGPA . . . consider a "Plan B" and look at one of the California accredited law schools such as Monterey College of Law. Feel free to send me a direct message if you have questions. If you want more information about California accredited law schools, check the posts on this site under the school specific comments in "M" for Monterey College of Law. Dean Mitchel Winick.