Law School Discussion

Off-Topic Area => General Off-Topic Board => Topic started by: elemnopee on June 30, 2005, 12:26:12 PM

Title: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: elemnopee on June 30, 2005, 12:26:12 PM
Operation Yellow Elephant was established to encourage our the best and brightest among Republicans to volunteer for our armed services, since our recruiting goals have not been met.  They recently attempted to purchase advertising space in the National College Republicans Conference Program.

They were rejected.
(http://webpages.charter.net/micah/oyead.gif)

Why don't you/they want to go?  It makes no sense if you are so scared of our freedoms being taken away, why are you/they not fighting?  Have Republicans written a check their a$$ can't cash?

discuss, or not.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: swordfish on June 30, 2005, 12:32:07 PM
Republicans talk a big game, but are female private part's when put to the test.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: fooseball22 on June 30, 2005, 12:32:52 PM
would you really want to be fighting next to them?  I wouldnt.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: NathanB on June 30, 2005, 12:33:00 PM
THIS IS GREAT!

Personally, I think that they should start with the children of all US Congressmen, Senators, Executive Branch Administration, etc, then everyone else.

We'd get in  a lot fewer wars.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: hammer101 on June 30, 2005, 12:37:11 PM
THIS IS GREAT!

Personally, I think that they should start with the children of all US Congressmen, Senators, Executive Branch Administration, etc, then everyone else.

We'd get in  a lot fewer wars.

Been there, done that....tired idea. Remember Michael Moore's masterpiece in sixth grade logic, Fahrenheit 911?
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Julie Fern on June 30, 2005, 12:38:47 PM
tired, maybe...but never tried.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: fooseball22 on June 30, 2005, 12:39:40 PM
it'd make them a whole lot less cavalier about sending poor people off to die, thats for sure.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: NathanB on June 30, 2005, 12:40:31 PM
Amen.

it'd make them a whole lot less cavalier about sending poor people off to die, thats for sure.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: hammer101 on June 30, 2005, 12:43:16 PM
it'd make them a whole lot less cavalier about sending poor people off to die, thats for sure.

I'll assume cause you generally seem reasonable that you don't mean to imply everyone in the military is poor, but that's certainly the implication here....

3 words: all volunteer army.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Julie Fern on June 30, 2005, 12:45:35 PM
it'd make them a whole lot less cavalier about sending poor people off to die, thats for sure.

I'll assume cause you generally seem reasonable that you don't mean to imply everyone in the military is poor, but that's certainly the implication here....

3 words: all volunteer army.

let julie take wild guess:  you for war, but intere43sted in fighting it.  right?
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Jebber on June 30, 2005, 12:50:37 PM
Why don't you/they want to go?  It makes no sense if you are so scared of our freedoms being taken away, why are you/they not fighting?  Have Republicans written a check their a$$ can't cash?

Army won't take me because I have a 4 inch steel plate in my leg.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Oneof2 on June 30, 2005, 12:57:11 PM
I didnt know that wanting to actally fight the war was a prerequisite for supporting it...

Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: hammer101 on June 30, 2005, 12:59:47 PM
In general (and I'm not singling out people here, I should say) I think the liberal attitude toward servicemen and women is interesting...on the one hand, the look down their noses at them (hence the comment about poor people...and while foose probably didn't mean it the way I read it, it is common liberal thinking that most troops are from lower middle class backgrounds) and yet pretend to honor and revere them. You don't exalt someone you believe is beneath you. Liberals can't have it both ways.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: fooseball22 on June 30, 2005, 12:59:57 PM
it'd make them a whole lot less cavalier about sending poor people off to die, thats for sure.

I'll assume cause you generally seem reasonable that you don't mean to imply everyone in the military is poor, but that's certainly the implication here....

3 words: all volunteer army.

how many rich people sign up for this 'volunteer army'?  I assume you're reasonable enough to recognize that mostly poor people compose the ranks of the military.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: fooseball22 on June 30, 2005, 01:01:22 PM
In general (and I'm not singling out people here, I should say) I think the liberal attitude toward servicemen and women is interesting...on the one hand, the look down their noses at them (hence the comment about poor people...and while foose probably didn't mean it the way I read it, it is common liberal thinking that most troops are from lower middle class backgrounds) and yet pretend to honor and revere them. You don't exalt someone you believe is beneath you. Liberals can't have it both ways.

sounds like rush rhetoric to me...
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: hammer101 on June 30, 2005, 01:02:27 PM
it'd make them a whole lot less cavalier about sending poor people off to die, thats for sure.

I'll assume cause you generally seem reasonable that you don't mean to imply everyone in the military is poor, but that's certainly the implication here....

3 words: all volunteer army.

how many rich people sign up for this 'volunteer army'?  I assume you're reasonable enough to recognize that mostly poor people compose the ranks of the military.

Some are, no doubt....but all of them joined for the promise of a GI bill at the end? I highly doubt it...I don't have the figures but I would assume it's mostly middle class...
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: hammer101 on June 30, 2005, 01:05:44 PM
In general (and I'm not singling out people here, I should say) I think the liberal attitude toward servicemen and women is interesting...on the one hand, the look down their noses at them (hence the comment about poor people...and while foose probably didn't mean it the way I read it, it is common liberal thinking that most troops are from lower middle class backgrounds) and yet pretend to honor and revere them. You don't exalt someone you believe is beneath you. Liberals can't have it both ways.

sounds like rush rhetoric to me...

It's a logical inference. If you consider people inferior to yourself, how can you possibly respect and admire them (not you, the general "you")?
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: ASNetlenov on June 30, 2005, 01:06:07 PM
how many rich people sign up for this 'volunteer army'?  I assume you're reasonable enough to recognize that mostly poor people compose the ranks of the military.

What's your point? I guess poor people shouldn't be allowed to support higher taxation on the wealthy because they benefit without giving anything up? Similarly twisted logic.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: MustBMe on June 30, 2005, 01:10:58 PM
it'd make them a whole lot less cavalier about sending poor people off to die, thats for sure.

I'll assume cause you generally seem reasonable that you don't mean to imply everyone in the military is poor, but that's certainly the implication here....

3 words: all volunteer army.

let julie take wild guess:  you for war, but intere43sted in fighting it.  right?

Speaking as a veteran, Julie, I find that comment highly offensive.  

I've never taken drugs, so I guess I have no right to speak about the danger of using/abusing drugs.

I've never had lung cancer, so I guess I have no right to speak about the dangers of smoking.

I've never had STD, but I guess I have no right to speak about somewhat safe sex (ie condoms) and safest sex (monogamous relationships).

After reading some of your posts, I think a two year stint in any of our armed forces, but particularly the Marines, would you do you a WORLD of good.  You might understand what it means to support your country, to be more inclined to trust your government i/s/o just about every other international organization that insults and disparages it.

Also, the military is overwhelming conservative.  I remember reading the Stars and Stripes last November which reported that about 80%.... THAT'S 80%.... of our armed forces who voted voted for Bush over Kerry.

So, in reponse to this assinine topic about Republicans being the first to volunteer to join the armed forces:  WE'RE ALREADY THERE!!!  

In the spirit of equality, I suggest we encourage more Democrats to join, so that instead of 80/20 split of conservatives to liberals, it'll be closer to 50/50.

Tell you kids what:  if any of you 'progressive' pi$$ on the US types were to enlist, I'll reenlist.  Swear to God.  

You see, I know how good it feels to be a part of something greater than myself.  To know that what I do truly matters.  To know that if I would have to sacrifice myself for my country, I'd be able to look God in the eye, knowing that there is no greater love than to lay down my life in defense of true liberty and freedom.

Reading your posts almost makes me wonder why I bothered.  Almost.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: fooseball22 on June 30, 2005, 01:12:09 PM
i'm still not sure where your 'liberals see the poor as inferior' argument comes from...it was never stated nor inferred in this thread that they were inferior, nor have i read any stories recently about liberals calling the poor inferior.  You're more than welcome to show me real examples of such.

My point was originally that its easy to support a war your family is not involved in.  
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: fooseball22 on June 30, 2005, 01:16:57 PM
it'd make them a whole lot less cavalier about sending poor people off to die, thats for sure.

I'll assume cause you generally seem reasonable that you don't mean to imply everyone in the military is poor, but that's certainly the implication here....

3 words: all volunteer army.

how many rich people sign up for this 'volunteer army'?  I assume you're reasonable enough to recognize that mostly poor people compose the ranks of the military.

Some are, no doubt....but all of them joined for the promise of a GI bill at the end? I highly doubt it...I don't have the figures but I would assume it's mostly middle class...

I think something about 80% of americans think theyre middle class...that should make a flag pop up in your head...80%, think theyre in the middle...80%...get some census stats and you'll see why thats horribly wrong.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: ASNetlenov on June 30, 2005, 01:17:07 PM
I was not clear in my example.

The point being made here is that some people support a cause and that if they believe in the cause they should enlist to support it. The inference is that if they do not enlist that their support is somehow less than honorable because they expect others to pay the price for that support. This is a ridiculous attack against the character of many people.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: fooseball22 on June 30, 2005, 01:20:37 PM
what attack?
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: ASNetlenov on June 30, 2005, 01:22:03 PM
the one in the OP
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: hammer101 on June 30, 2005, 01:23:18 PM
it'd make them a whole lot less cavalier about sending poor people off to die, thats for sure.

I'll assume cause you generally seem reasonable that you don't mean to imply everyone in the military is poor, but that's certainly the implication here....

3 words: all volunteer army.

how many rich people sign up for this 'volunteer army'?  I assume you're reasonable enough to recognize that mostly poor people compose the ranks of the military.

Some are, no doubt....but all of them joined for the promise of a GI bill at the end? I highly doubt it...I don't have the figures but I would assume it's mostly middle class...

I think something about 80% of americans think theyre middle class...that should make a flag pop up in your head...80%, think theyre in the middle...80%...get some census stats and you'll see why thats horribly wrong.

You still haven't proven that the military is predominantly poor...

As to your other question -- again I did not say that you, or anyone else in this thread, said the poor are inferior. But I have read snide comments about soldiers' pre-professional careers on some liberal blogs in the past but I'll have to look back and see what I can find. Again, I don't think every liberal thinks that way...that wasn't the point...but some do.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: fooseball22 on June 30, 2005, 01:30:02 PM
you have to admit...rich kids have little to lose from the war, no?
it'd make them a whole lot less cavalier about sending poor people off to die, thats for sure.

I'll assume cause you generally seem reasonable that you don't mean to imply everyone in the military is poor, but that's certainly the implication here....

3 words: all volunteer army.

how many rich people sign up for this 'volunteer army'?  I assume you're reasonable enough to recognize that mostly poor people compose the ranks of the military.

Some are, no doubt....but all of them joined for the promise of a GI bill at the end? I highly doubt it...I don't have the figures but I would assume it's mostly middle class...

I think something about 80% of americans think theyre middle class...that should make a flag pop up in your head...80%, think theyre in the middle...80%...get some census stats and you'll see why thats horribly wrong.

You still haven't proven that the military is predominantly poor...

As to your other question -- again I did not say that you, or anyone else in this thread, said the poor are inferior. But I have read snide comments about soldiers' pre-professional careers on some liberal blogs in the past but I'll have to look back and see what I can find. Again, I don't think every liberal thinks that way...that wasn't the point...but some do.

i'll wait for some examples.

And the american military has historically been comprised of the poor and the rich have historically been able to get out of the war by paying fees, going to school, etc.(who are the ones that are usually going to school, thats right, rich folk).

http://www.daveyd.com/polarticlesoldiersblack.html
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: lp4law on June 30, 2005, 01:31:46 PM
I served in the Marines with a number of guys/gals that were from all socioeconomic backgrounds.  They were all very proud of their service, and the valuable individual and teamwork skills that you would be hard pressed to develop outside of the military. Most of the people I served with volunteered for two reasons: the combined physical/emotional/intellectual challenges inherent to military training, and the desire to defend our country's interests and our way of life.   They also understood the risks, especially those who volunteered for the Army and Marines, where you're trained as an infantryman first, and anything else is secondary.   Most of the "poor" people I served with would be offended by the characterization that they joined primarily for economic reasons.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: fooseball22 on June 30, 2005, 01:41:00 PM
...i provided an article showing that poor people comprise a larger percentage of servicemen and women...your turn to show me liberals calling servicemen inferior.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: The Dread Pirate Roberts on June 30, 2005, 01:42:17 PM
You see, I know how good it feels to be a part of something greater than myself.  To know that what I do truly matters.  To know that if I would have to sacrifice myself for my country, I'd be able to look God in the eye, knowing that there is no greater love than to lay down my life in defense of true liberty and freedom.

That kind of sentiment is very appealing, and I think, although it hasn't been put to the test, that if I believed that our military was something great and noble, and that our country was doing the right things for the right reasons, I would be willing to put my life on the line for that.  I might even be willing to put myself into a place where I would kill for that, though I'm not sure.

The problem is that I just don't have that kind of faith in our government, and its use of the military.  It's done too many terrible things in the past (as have most other governments; I'm not saying it's unique in that respect).  I wish I felt like our government was something I could trust and respect that much.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: be10dwn on June 30, 2005, 01:47:52 PM
You see, I know how good it feels to be a part of something greater than myself.  To know that what I do truly matters.  To know that if I would have to sacrifice myself for my country, I'd be able to look God in the eye, knowing that there is no greater love than to lay down my life in defense of true liberty and freedom.

That kind of sentiment is very appealing, and I think, although it hasn't been put to the test, that if I believed that our military was something great and noble, and that our country was doing the right things for the right reasons, I would be willing to put my life on the line for that.  I might even be willing to put myself into a place where I would kill for that, though I'm not sure. 
The problem is that I just don't have that kind of faith in our government, and its use of the military.  It's done too many terrible things in the past (as have most other governments; I'm not saying it's unique in that respect).  I wish I felt like our government was something I could trust and respect that much.

Wow, I really don't think anything else needs to be said on this topic after reading this opst.  It's just a good thing that there are people who believe in this country enough to defend your right to despise it.     
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: fooseball22 on June 30, 2005, 01:49:26 PM
false consciousness
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: fooseball22 on June 30, 2005, 01:53:22 PM
its hard to believe that iraq was started in order to defend against terrorism...or to defend this country...Its hard to believe that my friend at west point gets shipped off to fight for a cause as material as the inside of a balloon.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: be10dwn on June 30, 2005, 01:57:56 PM
A lot of people do join the military to escape the economic situation in which they are in.  But they join to better themselves and their family's lives.  I think this argument about whether the military is poor or whatver is somewhat inconsequential because it is an all volunteer force.  People have the right to volunteer if they choose to, as well as the right to not join, and that is perfectly okay.  I have no problem with someone not wanting to serve in the armed forces, just respect those that have volunteered no matter what your political belief is.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: _BP_ on June 30, 2005, 01:59:36 PM
You see, I know how good it feels to be a part of something greater than myself.  To know that what I do truly matters.  To know that if I would have to sacrifice myself for my country, I'd be able to look God in the eye, knowing that there is no greater love than to lay down my life in defense of true liberty and freedom.

That kind of sentiment is very appealing, and I think, although it hasn't been put to the test, that if I believed that our military was something great and noble, and that our country was doing the right things for the right reasons, I would be willing to put my life on the line for that.  I might even be willing to put myself into a place where I would kill for that, though I'm not sure.

The problem is that I just don't have that kind of faith in our government, and its use of the military.  It's done too many terrible things in the past (as have most other governments; I'm not saying it's unique in that respect).  I wish I felt like our government was something I could trust and respect that much.

Exactly.  Good post.  

MustbMe, that was a great rehash of army recruiting/advertising material.  As for looking God in the eye...you feel that sacrificing yourself for America let's you look God in the eye, while others think that sacrificing themselves for their countries and causes make it easier for them to look their God in the eye.  In the end it's all rhetoric bull.  God, if he/she is out there, is for HUMANKIND, not just for humans that just happened to be born in a certain area code.  God is not an American.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: lp4law on June 30, 2005, 02:01:27 PM
its hard to believe that iraq was started in order to defend against terrorism...or to defend this country...Its hard to believe that my friend at west point gets shipped off to fight for a cause as material as the inside of a balloon.

Oh...you mean AIR.  You know, that silly stuff that allows you to sustain your life, communicate your ideas through sound, and carries you into flight.   ;)
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: be10dwn on June 30, 2005, 02:02:39 PM
The problem with the liberals is that you keep trying to fight the same windmill over and over again.  At this point it doesn't matter why we went to Iraq, what matters is getting the damn job done.  We have to be successful, we have no choice.  Does nobody on the liberal side understand this?  All I ever hear is quagmire this and quagmire that, but no solutions are ever given to the problem.  If you think something is wrong, great, come up with a solution because otherwise you just sound like a whiny female dog.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: fooseball22 on June 30, 2005, 02:03:34 PM
I have no problem with someone not wanting to serve in the armed forces, just respect those that have volunteered no matter what your political belief is.

i dont think anyone here would have the fuspa to disrespect someone who serves.  The question is more along the lines of whose interests are being served and accountability of those interests.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Intuition on June 30, 2005, 02:04:09 PM
Well, I'm not sure how skilled Republicans in general are. I tend to think they'd be great scorers and possess solid man-to-man defensive skills. I'm not sure if I'd want them running the point or playing help defense. But if you find a Rep. with good size who can elevate and play lock down defense, then I say he's definitely worth a lottery pick.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: be10dwn on June 30, 2005, 02:05:30 PM
I have no problem with someone not wanting to serve in the armed forces, just respect those that have volunteered no matter what your political belief is.

i dont think anyone here would have the fuspa to disrespect someone who serves.  The question is more along the lines of whose interests are being served and accountability of those interests.

What are your interests?  Just curious, I don't mean this in any smartass way.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: be10dwn on June 30, 2005, 02:05:50 PM
Well, I'm not sure how skilled Republicans in general are. I tend to think they'd be great scorers and possess solid man-to-man defensive skills. I'm not sure if I'd want them running the point or playing help defense. But if you find a Rep. with good size who can elevate and play lock down defense, then I say he's definitely worth a lottery pick.

LOL 180
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Oneof2 on June 30, 2005, 02:06:27 PM
Quote

i dont think anyone here would have the fuspa to disrespect someone who serves.  The question is more along the lines of whose interests are being served and accountability of those interests.
Quote

I think this is well said
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: be10dwn on June 30, 2005, 02:07:16 PM
I think all our interests are served if we can prevent people from flying planes into our buildings.  I don't know if a free democratic Iraq will help in his, but it just might.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: fooseball22 on June 30, 2005, 02:08:13 PM
The problem with the liberals is that you keep trying to fight the same windmill over and over again.  At this point it doesn't matter why we went to Iraq, what matters is getting the damn job done.  We have to be successful, we have no choice.  Does nobody on the liberal side understand this?  All I ever hear is quagmire this and quagmire that, but no solutions are ever given to the problem.  If you think something is wrong, great, come up with a solution because otherwise you just sound like a whiny female dog.

liberals are the only ones without a plan?  Maybe you should rethink that one.

Be 10, My interests lay with the well being of all americans, not corporations, not electioneering, not politicians.  Just regular, plain folk.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: The5thAce on June 30, 2005, 02:09:21 PM
Well, I'm not sure how skilled Republicans in general are. I tend to think they'd be great scorers and possess solid man-to-man defensive skills. I'm not sure if I'd want them running the point or playing help defense. But if you find a Rep. with good size who can elevate and play lock down defense, then I say he's definitely worth a lottery pick.

*LOL*  This officially gets the award for the most worthwhile post on this topic thus far.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: A.J. on June 30, 2005, 02:10:04 PM
Yeah I think so.  Along with the dems who voted for Kerry seeing as how he signed onto the war from day one.

Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: be10dwn on June 30, 2005, 02:10:15 PM
Well, I'm not sure how skilled Republicans in general are. I tend to think they'd be great scorers and possess solid man-to-man defensive skills. I'm not sure if I'd want them running the point or playing help defense. But if you find a Rep. with good size who can elevate and play lock down defense, then I say he's definitely worth a lottery pick.

*LOL*  This officially gets the award for the most worthwhile post on this topic thus far.

I second the motion!
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: MustBMe on June 30, 2005, 02:13:50 PM
You see, I know how good it feels to be a part of something greater than myself.  To know that what I do truly matters.  To know that if I would have to sacrifice myself for my country, I'd be able to look God in the eye, knowing that there is no greater love than to lay down my life in defense of true liberty and freedom.

That kind of sentiment is very appealing, and I think, although it hasn't been put to the test, that if I believed that our military was something great and noble, and that our country was doing the right things for the right reasons, I would be willing to put my life on the line for that.  I might even be willing to put myself into a place where I would kill for that, though I'm not sure.

The problem is that I just don't have that kind of faith in our government, and its use of the military.  It's done too many terrible things in the past (as have most other governments; I'm not saying it's unique in that respect).  I wish I felt like our government was something I could trust and respect that much.

Hey Ms. Suger (presuming your female),

Granted, my job was to follow orders, not make policy decisions.  Still, none of us followed orders blindly.  If my conscience had ever bothered about what I was doing, I wouldn't've re upped twice.  And I can assure you that I follow my conscience as much as I can.  I also consider myself a good religious person, and believe that someday I'll have to answer for everything I've done.

I guess what bothers me is the presumption that the majority of the people were #1, poor, and #2, had no options other than join the military.  It makes it sound like we were just dumb fodder for the American military machine.  Of course we had some dim bulbs, but please tell me what large organization doesn't.

I'm not suggesting that there is some mystic nobility in being a member of the military.  I am saying that by far the main reason that the men and women who join it truly love their country and want to ensure that the God given opportunities and blessings that we have in the USA will still be there for our children and grandchildren.  Does anyone honestly believe that only 'dumb' and/or 'poor' people care about such things.

I can also honestly tell you that people like Julie Fern, with her "How Goes the Dirty Little War", is just a slap in the face to your American soldier.  I've been over there and let me tell you, the only "Dirty" thing going on are terrorists blowing up innocent people.  What the soldiers are doing, and more importantly, BELIEVE what we're doing, are routing out a rat's nest of terrorism.  Hopefully we're magnets for the terrorists so that the likelihood of such disgusting people committing such acts here are reduced.  None of us want to hurt of kill anyone, but, believe it or not, there is true evil in the world.  And there ultimately can only be one response to such matters.

I'm sorry you feel that our government has used our military terribly in the past.  Do you mind if I ask you for an example of two of what you're referring to?  It seems to me, if anything, people feel we don't use the military enough (ie Why haven't we invaded Cuba, North Korea, the Sudan, etc)

Anyway, if nothing else, I hope I engender a little more goodwill towards our service people.  They could really use it now.... more than ever.  It's a long fight ahead to protect this country.  Hell, I feel guilty for not still being out there.

 
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: be10dwn on June 30, 2005, 02:14:57 PM
The problem with the liberals is that you keep trying to fight the same windmill over and over again.  At this point it doesn't matter why we went to Iraq, what matters is getting the damn job done.  We have to be successful, we have no choice.  Does nobody on the liberal side understand this?  All I ever hear is quagmire this and quagmire that, but no solutions are ever given to the problem.  If you think something is wrong, great, come up with a solution because otherwise you just sound like a whiny female dog.

liberals are the only ones without a plan?  Maybe you should rethink that one.

Be 10, My interests lay with the well being of all americans, not corporations, not electioneering, not politicians.  Just regular, plain folk.

Hey, I'm pretty politically neutral on this issue.  But all you ever hear from the Democratic side are the voices Ted Kennedy and Howard Dean.  Now I have to question the wisdom of choosing someone who I would think doesn't appeal to the broad majority of his own party to be its leader, but thats another topic.  My point is, if they don't like the the way Iraq is going, the Dems should come up with an alternate strategy that doesn't consist of simply calling it a quagmire.  My feeling is that most of these liberal dem leaders are stuck with Vietnam flashbacks and shape every conflict in light of Vietnam. 
 
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: WKRUSE on June 30, 2005, 02:16:34 PM
I think you would be surprised.  You don't need to draft republicans.  We already make up over 70% of the armed forces.  You see, we do back up what we preach.  I had my B.S. in business before I signed up.  What were you doing while I was deployed?  Bitching and moaning with the rest of your liberal friends?  Grab a rifle or shut the F*$K up.  You might also be surprised to learn that the army is the only branch whose recruits, on average, come from lower middle income families.  The rest of the branches are made up almost entirely of middle to upper middle class americans.

how many rich people sign up for this 'volunteer army'?  I assume you're reasonable enough to recognize that mostly poor people compose the ranks of the military.
Quote
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: A.J. on June 30, 2005, 02:18:38 PM
YEAH!


Take that bitches!
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: fooseball22 on June 30, 2005, 02:22:40 PM
I think you would be surprised.  You don't need to draft republicans.  We already make up over 70% of the armed forces.  You see, we do back up what we preach.  I had my B.S. in business before I signed up.  What were you doing while I was deployed?  Bitching and moaning with the rest of your liberal friends?  Grab a rifle or shut the F*$K up.  You might also be surprised to learn that the army is the only branch whose recruits, on average, come from lower middle income families.  The rest of the barnches are made up almost entirely of middle to upper middle class americans.

how many rich people sign up for this 'volunteer army'?  I assume you're reasonable enough to recognize that mostly poor people compose the ranks of the military.
Quote

care to post data on the 'entirely made up of middle to upper class americans' statement?  And im talking about the 'real' republicans...aka the rich ones who are actually running the show.(think mod pubs or rinos)
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: fooseball22 on June 30, 2005, 02:26:56 PM
but i suppose 70% of republicans are stock holders in haliburton...right?  Sounds like someone missed the reality train.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: The5thAce on June 30, 2005, 02:29:24 PM
I think you would be surprised.  You don't need to draft republicans.  We already make up over 70% of the armed forces.  You see, we do back up what we preach.  I had my B.S. in business before I signed up.  What were you doing while I was deployed?  Bitching and moaning with the rest of your liberal friends?  Grab a rifle or shut the F*$K up.  You might also be surprised to learn that the army is the only branch whose recruits, on average, come from lower middle income families.  The rest of the barnches are made up almost entirely of middle to upper middle class americans.

how many rich people sign up for this 'volunteer army'?  I assume you're reasonable enough to recognize that mostly poor people compose the ranks of the military.
Quote

care to post data on the 'entirely made up of middle to upper class americans' statement?  And im talking about the 'real' republicans...aka the rich ones who are actually running the show.(think mod pubs or rinos)

It is my understanding that officers in any division of the military MUST have a college degree.  A college degree is generally regarded as evidence that one is not a "poor" individual (or is on his/her way to escaping that label).  Keeping this in mind, I similarly believe that the army possesses the greatest proportion of enlisted men of all military branchs.  When one synthesizes this information, one generally reaches the conclusion that non-army branches of the military contain, at the very least, a significant number of middle-class (or higher) citizens.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: swordfish on June 30, 2005, 02:31:50 PM
it'd make them a whole lot less cavalier about sending poor people off to die, thats for sure.

I'll assume cause you generally seem reasonable that you don't mean to imply everyone in the military is poor, but that's certainly the implication here....

3 words: all volunteer army.

let julie take wild guess:  you for war, but intere43sted in fighting it.  right?

Speaking as a veteran, Julie, I find that comment highly offensive.  

I've never taken drugs, so I guess I have no right to speak about the danger of using/abusing drugs.

I've never had lung cancer, so I guess I have no right to speak about the dangers of smoking.

I've never had STD, but I guess I have no right to speak about somewhat safe sex (ie condoms) and safest sex (monogamous relationships).

After reading some of your posts, I think a two year stint in any of our armed forces, but particularly the Marines, would you do you a WORLD of good.  You might understand what it means to support your country, to be more inclined to trust your government i/s/o just about every other international organization that insults and disparages it.

Also, the military is overwhelming conservative.  I remember reading the Stars and Stripes last November which reported that about 80%.... THAT'S 80%.... of our armed forces who voted voted for Bush over Kerry.

So, in reponse to this assinine topic about Republicans being the first to volunteer to join the armed forces:  WE'RE ALREADY THERE!!!  

In the spirit of equality, I suggest we encourage more Democrats to join, so that instead of 80/20 split of conservatives to liberals, it'll be closer to 50/50.

Tell you kids what:  if any of you 'progressive' pi$$ on the US types were to enlist, I'll reenlist.  Swear to God.  

You see, I know how good it feels to be a part of something greater than myself.  To know that what I do truly matters.  To know that if I would have to sacrifice myself for my country, I'd be able to look God in the eye, knowing that there is no greater love than to lay down my life in defense of true liberty and freedom.

Reading your posts almost makes me wonder why I bothered.  Almost.

Then why didn't you stay in the armed forces?
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: swordfish on June 30, 2005, 02:34:37 PM
The problem with the liberals is that you keep trying to fight the same windmill over and over again.  At this point it doesn't matter why we went to Iraq, what matters is getting the damn job done.  We have to be successful, we have no choice.  Does nobody on the liberal side understand this?  All I ever hear is quagmire this and quagmire that, but no solutions are ever given to the problem.  If you think something is wrong, great, come up with a solution because otherwise you just sound like a whiny female dog.

Here's a solution, GET THE @#!* OUT!!!
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: The5thAce on June 30, 2005, 02:36:59 PM
The problem with the liberals is that you keep trying to fight the same windmill over and over again.  At this point it doesn't matter why we went to Iraq, what matters is getting the damn job done.  We have to be successful, we have no choice.  Does nobody on the liberal side understand this?  All I ever hear is quagmire this and quagmire that, but no solutions are ever given to the problem.  If you think something is wrong, great, come up with a solution because otherwise you just sound like a whiny female dog.

Here's a solution, GET THE #@!* OUT!!!

Unfortunately, this is not an acceptable solution because it creates a power vacuum.  Such a situation could potentially result in an even greater problem than we initially sought to solve.  History has taught us many times what sorts of evil may arise in the power vacuum of a nation recently engaged in revolution.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: swordfish on June 30, 2005, 02:39:18 PM
I think you would be surprised.  You don't need to draft republicans.  We already make up over 70% of the armed forces.  You see, we do back up what we preach.  I had my B.S. in business before I signed up.  What were you doing while I was deployed?  Bitching and moaning with the rest of your liberal friends?  Grab a rifle or shut the F*$K up.  You might also be surprised to learn that the army is the only branch whose recruits, on average, come from lower middle income families.  The rest of the branches are made up almost entirely of middle to upper middle class americans.

how many rich people sign up for this 'volunteer army'?  I assume you're reasonable enough to recognize that mostly poor people compose the ranks of the military.
Quote

I like your reasoning, either kill or be quiet.  Republicans are so smart.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: MustBMe on June 30, 2005, 02:39:54 PM
You see, I know how good it feels to be a part of something greater than myself.  To know that what I do truly matters.  To know that if I would have to sacrifice myself for my country, I'd be able to look God in the eye, knowing that there is no greater love than to lay down my life in defense of true liberty and freedom.

That kind of sentiment is very appealing, and I think, although it hasn't been put to the test, that if I believed that our military was something great and noble, and that our country was doing the right things for the right reasons, I would be willing to put my life on the line for that.  I might even be willing to put myself into a place where I would kill for that, though I'm not sure.

The problem is that I just don't have that kind of faith in our government, and its use of the military.  It's done too many terrible things in the past (as have most other governments; I'm not saying it's unique in that respect).  I wish I felt like our government was something I could trust and respect that much.

Exactly.  Good post.  

MustbMe, that was a great rehash of army recruiting/advertising material.  As for looking God in the eye...you feel that sacrificing yourself for America let's you look God in the eye, while others think that sacrificing themselves for their countries and causes make it easier for them to look their God in the eye.  In the end it's all rhetoric bull.  God, if he/she is out there, is for HUMANKIND, not just for humans that just happened to be born in a certain area code.  God is not an American.

BP,

I know you won't care, but I know several fine young men who died to help further democracy in other parts of the world.  They also died to help defend our Country and our Constitution, which guarantee your freedom of speach.  

I wish you could visit North Korea, the Middle East, and portions of Africa.  You do know that they still practice slavery in those parts of the world, right?  I know, I know, there's nothing special about America.....

You, I was tempted to go on a rant here, and tell you what I really thought about you, but considering that July 4th is just around the corner, I thought about something else instead.  How about you visit a VA hospital over the weekend.  Or, maybe, you visit a veterans cemetary and place a few small American flags on their graves.  Granted I know such actions are beneath you, considering they died for rhetoric bull....

Yea, why don't you print out what you just posted, stick it in the back of your pants pocket, and go do SOMETHING to thank a veteran.  Maybe, just maybe, you'll discover something about yourself in the process.  

God Bless America BP
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: WKRUSE on June 30, 2005, 02:40:52 PM
I am a real republican.  I'll tell you what, I will get the hard numbers from the recruiting command for you.    
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: swordfish on June 30, 2005, 02:42:07 PM
The problem with the liberals is that you keep trying to fight the same windmill over and over again.  At this point it doesn't matter why we went to Iraq, what matters is getting the damn job done.  We have to be successful, we have no choice.  Does nobody on the liberal side understand this?  All I ever hear is quagmire this and quagmire that, but no solutions are ever given to the problem.  If you think something is wrong, great, come up with a solution because otherwise you just sound like a whiny female dog.

Here's a solution, GET THE #@!* OUT!!!

Unfortunately, this is not an acceptable solution because it creates a power vacuum.  Such a situation could potentially result in an even greater problem than we initially sought to solve.  History has taught us many times what sorts of evil may arise in the power vacuum of a nation recently engaged in revolution.

I don't care about vacuums.  I care about human lives.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: The5thAce on June 30, 2005, 02:46:04 PM
The problem with the liberals is that you keep trying to fight the same windmill over and over again.  At this point it doesn't matter why we went to Iraq, what matters is getting the damn job done.  We have to be successful, we have no choice.  Does nobody on the liberal side understand this?  All I ever hear is quagmire this and quagmire that, but no solutions are ever given to the problem.  If you think something is wrong, great, come up with a solution because otherwise you just sound like a whiny female dog.



Here's a solution, GET THE #@!* OUT!!!

Unfortunately, this is not an acceptable solution because it creates a power vacuum.  Such a situation could potentially result in an even greater problem than we initially sought to solve.  History has taught us many times what sorts of evil may arise in the power vacuum of a nation recently engaged in revolution.

I don't care about vacuums. I care about human lives.

Do you really think that the two are separate entities?  What does history teach us about revolution and the ensuing struggle for power?  If you create a power vacuum, then many, many human lives are certain to be lost.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Perversely on June 30, 2005, 02:46:43 PM
yeah, i want to see bush's girls on the line.  i want to see them geared up, fighting for the nobel cause their father has sent so many soilders out to die for.

bush recently made a statement:  "this is a cause worth dying for."

send his daughters.  if he thought it was so important, he should INSIST his daughter enlist.  they're old enough.  they graduated from high school (they're definitely part of the "no child left behind plan...")

this sh*t pisses me off.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: swordfish on June 30, 2005, 02:51:12 PM
The problem with the liberals is that you keep trying to fight the same windmill over and over again.  At this point it doesn't matter why we went to Iraq, what matters is getting the damn job done.  We have to be successful, we have no choice.  Does nobody on the liberal side understand this?  All I ever hear is quagmire this and quagmire that, but no solutions are ever given to the problem.  If you think something is wrong, great, come up with a solution because otherwise you just sound like a whiny female dog.



Here's a solution, GET THE #@!* OUT!!!

Unfortunately, this is not an acceptable solution because it creates a power vacuum.  Such a situation could potentially result in an even greater problem than we initially sought to solve.  History has taught us many times what sorts of evil may arise in the power vacuum of a nation recently engaged in revolution.

I don't care about vacuums. I care about human lives.

Do you really think that the two are separate entities?  What does history teach us about revolution and the ensuing struggle for power?  If you create a power vacuum, then many, many human lives are certain to be lost.

Not americans
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: swordfish on June 30, 2005, 02:53:09 PM
I am a real republican.  I'll tell you what, I will get the hard numbers from the recruiting command for you.    

Your more than welcome to grab a rifle and head over seas.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: be10dwn on June 30, 2005, 02:53:29 PM
yeah, i want to see bush's girls on the line.  i want to see them geared up, fighting for the nobel cause their father has sent so many soilders out to die for.

bush recently made a statement:  "this is a cause worth dying for."

send his daughters.  if he thought it was so important, he should INSIST his daughter enlist.  they're old enough.  they graduated from high school (they're definitely part of the "no child left behind plan...")

this sh*t pisses me off.
I always love seeing this inane argument.  It's just like saying, "well if you love it so much, then why don't you marry it?  huhuhuhu"
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: MustBMe on June 30, 2005, 02:53:54 PM
The problem with the liberals is that you keep trying to fight the same windmill over and over again.  At this point it doesn't matter why we went to Iraq, what matters is getting the damn job done.  We have to be successful, we have no choice.  Does nobody on the liberal side understand this?  All I ever hear is quagmire this and quagmire that, but no solutions are ever given to the problem.  If you think something is wrong, great, come up with a solution because otherwise you just sound like a whiny female dog.



Here's a solution, GET THE #@!* OUT!!!

Unfortunately, this is not an acceptable solution because it creates a power vacuum.  Such a situation could potentially result in an even greater problem than we initially sought to solve.  History has taught us many times what sorts of evil may arise in the power vacuum of a nation recently engaged in revolution.

I don't care about vacuums. I care about human lives.

Do you really think that the two are separate entities?  What does history teach us about revolution and the ensuing struggle for power?  If you create a power vacuum, then many, many human lives are certain to be lost.

Not americans

Than you have nothing to worry about Swordfish.  It isn't like you'll ever wear the Uniform.  I do admit, though, it's a lot easier to dump all over those of us who do, but I digress...
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: The5thAce on June 30, 2005, 02:54:15 PM
The problem with the liberals is that you keep trying to fight the same windmill over and over again.  At this point it doesn't matter why we went to Iraq, what matters is getting the damn job done.  We have to be successful, we have no choice.  Does nobody on the liberal side understand this?  All I ever hear is quagmire this and quagmire that, but no solutions are ever given to the problem.  If you think something is wrong, great, come up with a solution because otherwise you just sound like a whiny female dog.



Here's a solution, GET THE #@!* OUT!!!

Unfortunately, this is not an acceptable solution because it creates a power vacuum.  Such a situation could potentially result in an even greater problem than we initially sought to solve.  History has taught us many times what sorts of evil may arise in the power vacuum of a nation recently engaged in revolution.

I don't care about vacuums. I care about human lives.

Do you really think that the two are separate entities?  What does history teach us about revolution and the ensuing struggle for power?  If you create a power vacuum, then many, many human lives are certain to be lost.

Not americans

I will gladly grant you that point; however, we must value the lives of others as well as our own.  Isolationist viewpoints rarely produce positive results for the U.S. or for the rest of the world.  I believe that the last century provides ample evidence of this fact.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: _BP_ on June 30, 2005, 02:55:18 PM
You see, I know how good it feels to be a part of something greater than myself.  To know that what I do truly matters.  To know that if I would have to sacrifice myself for my country, I'd be able to look God in the eye, knowing that there is no greater love than to lay down my life in defense of true liberty and freedom.

That kind of sentiment is very appealing, and I think, although it hasn't been put to the test, that if I believed that our military was something great and noble, and that our country was doing the right things for the right reasons, I would be willing to put my life on the line for that.  I might even be willing to put myself into a place where I would kill for that, though I'm not sure.

The problem is that I just don't have that kind of faith in our government, and its use of the military.  It's done too many terrible things in the past (as have most other governments; I'm not saying it's unique in that respect).  I wish I felt like our government was something I could trust and respect that much.

Exactly.  Good post. 

MustbMe, that was a great rehash of army recruiting/advertising material.  As for looking God in the eye...you feel that sacrificing yourself for America let's you look God in the eye, while others think that sacrificing themselves for their countries and causes make it easier for them to look their God in the eye.  In the end it's all rhetoric bull.  God, if he/she is out there, is for HUMANKIND, not just for humans that just happened to be born in a certain area code.  God is not an American.

BP,

I know you won't care, but I know several fine young men who died to help further democracy in other parts of the world.  They also died to help defend our Country and our Constitution, which guarantee your freedom of speach. 

I wish you could visit North Korea, the Middle East, and portions of Africa.  You do know that they still practice slavery in those parts of the world, right?  I know, I know, there's nothing special about America.....

You, I was tempted to go on a rant here, and tell you what I really thought about you
, but considering that July 4th is just around the corner, I thought about something else instead.  How about you visit a VA hospital over the weekend.  Or, maybe, you visit a veterans cemetary and place a few small American flags on their graves.  Granted I know such actions are beneath you, considering they died for rhetoric bull....

Yea, why don't you print out what you just posted, stick it in the back of your pants pocket, and go do SOMETHING to thank a veteran.  Maybe, just maybe, you'll discover something about yourself in the process. 

God Bless America BP

I could care less what you think of me or if you choose to tell me or not.  HTH

It's interesting how you took my post and interpreted it as an anti-veteran, anti-soldier post.  When that isn't the case at all.  You've really learned to apply the Republican strategy well though, I'll give you that.  Note however, that the (you don't support our troops) b.s isn't going to work forever.  Give it up.  My post was about you invoking God.  Somehow you ignored that.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: swordfish on June 30, 2005, 02:56:51 PM
The problem with the liberals is that you keep trying to fight the same windmill over and over again.  At this point it doesn't matter why we went to Iraq, what matters is getting the damn job done.  We have to be successful, we have no choice.  Does nobody on the liberal side understand this?  All I ever hear is quagmire this and quagmire that, but no solutions are ever given to the problem.  If you think something is wrong, great, come up with a solution because otherwise you just sound like a whiny female dog.



Here's a solution, GET THE #@!* OUT!!!

Unfortunately, this is not an acceptable solution because it creates a power vacuum.  Such a situation could potentially result in an even greater problem than we initially sought to solve.  History has taught us many times what sorts of evil may arise in the power vacuum of a nation recently engaged in revolution.

I don't care about vacuums. I care about human lives.

Do you really think that the two are separate entities?  What does history teach us about revolution and the ensuing struggle for power?  If you create a power vacuum, then many, many human lives are certain to be lost.

Not americans

Than you have nothing to worry about Swordfish.  It isn't like you'll ever wear the Uniform.  I do admit, though, it's a lot easier to dump all over those of us who do, but I digress...

Your pretty tough yourself.  My dad's messed up for the rest of his life because of the war, and my friend got killed in March over there.  I'm from WV most of us serve.  I think I have a right to be upset over the war you female private part.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: The5thAce on June 30, 2005, 02:59:05 PM
I feel that the civility of this discussion is rapidly deteriorating (on both sides).  Can't we all just get along?   ;D
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: _BP_ on June 30, 2005, 03:00:03 PM
Yeah Swordfish, If you're not enlisted you don't get to say sh*t about what is done on your behalf.  Otherwise, you "don't support the troops".....Gettafuckoutta here with that *&^%.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: be10dwn on June 30, 2005, 03:00:34 PM
The problem with the liberals is that you keep trying to fight the same windmill over and over again.  At this point it doesn't matter why we went to Iraq, what matters is getting the damn job done.  We have to be successful, we have no choice.  Does nobody on the liberal side understand this?  All I ever hear is quagmire this and quagmire that, but no solutions are ever given to the problem.  If you think something is wrong, great, come up with a solution because otherwise you just sound like a whiny female dog.



Here's a solution, GET THE #@!* OUT!!!

Unfortunately, this is not an acceptable solution because it creates a power vacuum.  Such a situation could potentially result in an even greater problem than we initially sought to solve.  History has taught us many times what sorts of evil may arise in the power vacuum of a nation recently engaged in revolution.

I don't care about vacuums. I care about human lives.

Do you really think that the two are separate entities?  What does history teach us about revolution and the ensuing struggle for power?  If you create a power vacuum, then many, many human lives are certain to be lost.

Not americans

Than you have nothing to worry about Swordfish.  It isn't like you'll ever wear the Uniform.  I do admit, though, it's a lot easier to dump all over those of us who do, but I digress...

Your pretty tough yourself.  My dad's messed up for the rest of his life because of the war, and my friend got killed in March over there.  I'm from WV most of us serve.  I think I have a right to be upset over the war you female private part.

If you think tucking our tails and heading out of Iraq is the wise thing to do, then God help us if your ilk comes to power.  What would happen then would make 9/11 look like a day in the park.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: swordfish on June 30, 2005, 03:00:37 PM
Mustbme, your not in the military now.  What's wrong couldn't hack it.  If you ever were in the military, I doubt you were deployed you probably had a female dog job.  You talk tough though.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: swordfish on June 30, 2005, 03:01:41 PM
Yeah Swordfish, If you're not enlisted you don't get to say sh*t about what is done on your behalf.  Otherwise, you "don't support the troops".....Gettafuckoutta here with that sh*t.

That's right BP, you'll need to gettafuckoutta here with that *&^%. 
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: swordfish on June 30, 2005, 03:02:16 PM
I feel that the civility of this discussion is rapidly deteriorating (on both sides).  Can't we all just get along?   ;D

Fuckgetting along
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: MustBMe on June 30, 2005, 03:02:33 PM
You see, I know how good it feels to be a part of something greater than myself.  To know that what I do truly matters.  To know that if I would have to sacrifice myself for my country, I'd be able to look God in the eye, knowing that there is no greater love than to lay down my life in defense of true liberty and freedom.

That kind of sentiment is very appealing, and I think, although it hasn't been put to the test, that if I believed that our military was something great and noble, and that our country was doing the right things for the right reasons, I would be willing to put my life on the line for that.  I might even be willing to put myself into a place where I would kill for that, though I'm not sure.

The problem is that I just don't have that kind of faith in our government, and its use of the military.  It's done too many terrible things in the past (as have most other governments; I'm not saying it's unique in that respect).  I wish I felt like our government was something I could trust and respect that much.

Exactly.  Good post. 

MustbMe, that was a great rehash of army recruiting/advertising material.  As for looking God in the eye...you feel that sacrificing yourself for America let's you look God in the eye, while others think that sacrificing themselves for their countries and causes make it easier for them to look their God in the eye.  In the end it's all rhetoric bull.  God, if he/she is out there, is for HUMANKIND, not just for humans that just happened to be born in a certain area code.  God is not an American.

BP,

I know you won't care, but I know several fine young men who died to help further democracy in other parts of the world.  They also died to help defend our Country and our Constitution, which guarantee your freedom of speach. 

I wish you could visit North Korea, the Middle East, and portions of Africa.  You do know that they still practice slavery in those parts of the world, right?  I know, I know, there's nothing special about America.....

You, I was tempted to go on a rant here, and tell you what I really thought about you
, but considering that July 4th is just around the corner, I thought about something else instead.  How about you visit a VA hospital over the weekend.  Or, maybe, you visit a veterans cemetary and place a few small American flags on their graves.  Granted I know such actions are beneath you, considering they died for rhetoric bull....

Yea, why don't you print out what you just posted, stick it in the back of your pants pocket, and go do SOMETHING to thank a veteran.  Maybe, just maybe, you'll discover something about yourself in the process. 

God Bless America BP

I could care less what you think of me or if you choose to tell me or not.  HTH

It's interesting how you took my post and interpreted it as an anti-veteran, anti-soldier post.  When that isn't the case at all.  You've really learned to apply the Republican strategy well though, I'll give you that.  Note however, that the (you don't support our troops) b.s isn't going to work forever.  Give it up.  My post was about you invoking God.  Somehow you ignored that.

So let me get this straight BP, fighting for your country is rheotoric bull, those of us who do fight are and are proud of it and their country are just applying some sort of Republican strategy (as if we ever asked our buddies "so are you a Democrat or a Republican), but that not anti-veteran and anti-solder.  Whatever BP.  Happy 4th of July.  
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: be10dwn on June 30, 2005, 03:03:38 PM
I think this thread has officially been hijacked by someone who doesn't know what they are talking about and should probably stop while they are ahead.  There was a perfectly good debate going on until the extremists take over.  hmm this sounds familiar.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: swordfish on June 30, 2005, 03:03:56 PM
be10, then get over there and save the day.  Why are you wasting time talking to us female private part's when you can be a hero.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: The5thAce on June 30, 2005, 03:04:26 PM
I feel that the civility of this discussion is rapidly deteriorating (on both sides).  Can't we all just get along?   ;D

Fuckgetting along

Wow.....I honestly have no response to that.  I suppose that we are incapable of engaging in civil discourse without one party slinging invectives at another?  I think we are all better than this.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: be10dwn on June 30, 2005, 03:05:30 PM
I feel that the civility of this discussion is rapidly deteriorating (on both sides).  Can't we all just get along?   ;D

Fuckgetting along

Wow.....I honestly have no response to that.  I suppose that we are incapable of engaging in civil discourse without one party slinging invectives at another?  I think we are all better than this.

Nah ace, this thread is dead
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: MustBMe on June 30, 2005, 03:06:09 PM
I feel that the civility of this discussion is rapidly deteriorating (on both sides).  Can't we all just get along?   ;D

Fuckgetting along

I've got two purple hearts Swordfish.  I also have two children who hardly know me b/c I've been gone so long.  You wanna talk sacrifice to me, boy?

And it's real easy to name call behind a keyboard.  That's why I don't do it.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: swordfish on June 30, 2005, 03:06:55 PM
Mustbeme, I doubt you ever served, even if you did I doubt you fought.  So shutthefuckup!
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Tpie82 on June 30, 2005, 03:07:45 PM
Quote
I'm sorry you feel that our government has used our military terribly in the past.  Do you mind if I ask you for an example of two of what you're referring to?  It seems to me, if anything, people feel we don't use the military enough (ie Why haven't we invaded Cuba, North Korea, the Sudan, etc)

A few examples of the government abusing military power:
Manifest Destiny- Routing Indian tribes, taking New Mexico and California from Mexico and Florida from the Spanish (leaving harsh dictators in Cuba that caused problems for generations)

Countless Actions in Central/South America - Toppling governments that were not friendly to us (although this was not always the military per se, I believe the CIA helped to topple one of the regimes down there by themselves but this still goes to the heart of irresponsible use of government power)


Don't get me wrong, I am glad that the US has California etc, but there is no way that anyone can say that the governments motives are always pure.  With that in mind, I don't think that any responsibility falls on the soldiers for the government's mistakes, and that they are the bravest among us for fighting.  It is scary, however, to think that our population could become so nationalistic as to not question the government ever.  I saw someone on the thread say "I am glad soldiers defend the country so you can despise it."  That is a really poor response to someone raising serious issues.  Everyone who questions the government does not hate it, they are simply doing their jobs as informed citizens.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: swordfish on June 30, 2005, 03:07:55 PM
I feel that the civility of this discussion is rapidly deteriorating (on both sides).  Can't we all just get along?   ;D

Fuckgetting along

I've got two purple hearts Swordfish.  I also have two children who hardly know me b/c I've been gone so long.  You wanna talk sacrifice to me, boy?

And it's real easy to name call behind a keyboard.  That's why I don't do it.

Then get back over there.  Hurry go save the day tough guy.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: _BP_ on June 30, 2005, 03:08:08 PM
You see, I know how good it feels to be a part of something greater than myself.  To know that what I do truly matters.  To know that if I would have to sacrifice myself for my country, I'd be able to look God in the eye, knowing that there is no greater love than to lay down my life in defense of true liberty and freedom.

That kind of sentiment is very appealing, and I think, although it hasn't been put to the test, that if I believed that our military was something great and noble, and that our country was doing the right things for the right reasons, I would be willing to put my life on the line for that.  I might even be willing to put myself into a place where I would kill for that, though I'm not sure.

The problem is that I just don't have that kind of faith in our government, and its use of the military.  It's done too many terrible things in the past (as have most other governments; I'm not saying it's unique in that respect).  I wish I felt like our government was something I could trust and respect that much.

Exactly.  Good post. 

MustbMe, that was a great rehash of army recruiting/advertising material.  As for looking God in the eye...you feel that sacrificing yourself for America let's you look God in the eye, while others think that sacrificing themselves for their countries and causes make it easier for them to look their God in the eye.  In the end it's all rhetoric bull.  God, if he/she is out there, is for HUMANKIND, not just for humans that just happened to be born in a certain area code.  God is not an American.

BP,

I know you won't care, but I know several fine young men who died to help further democracy in other parts of the world.  They also died to help defend our Country and our Constitution, which guarantee your freedom of speach. 

I wish you could visit North Korea, the Middle East, and portions of Africa.  You do know that they still practice slavery in those parts of the world, right?  I know, I know, there's nothing special about America.....

You, I was tempted to go on a rant here, and tell you what I really thought about you
, but considering that July 4th is just around the corner, I thought about something else instead.  How about you visit a VA hospital over the weekend.  Or, maybe, you visit a veterans cemetary and place a few small American flags on their graves.  Granted I know such actions are beneath you, considering they died for rhetoric bull....

Yea, why don't you print out what you just posted, stick it in the back of your pants pocket, and go do SOMETHING to thank a veteran.  Maybe, just maybe, you'll discover something about yourself in the process. 

God Bless America BP

I could care less what you think of me or if you choose to tell me or not.  HTH

It's interesting how you took my post and interpreted it as an anti-veteran, anti-soldier post.  When that isn't the case at all.  You've really learned to apply the Republican strategy well though, I'll give you that.  Note however, that the (you don't support our troops) b.s isn't going to work forever.  Give it up.  My post was about you invoking God.  Somehow you ignored that.

So let me get this straight BP, fighting for your country is rheotoric bull, those of us who do fight are and are proud of it and their country are just applying some sort of Republican strategy (as if we ever asked our buddies "so are you a Democrat or a Republican), but that not anti-veteran and anti-solder.  Whatever BP.  Happy 4th of July. 

Happy 4th of July to you too.  The Republican strategy I was referring to, is to distract people from the issues by invoking either God or "Support our troops".  As if people who disagree with the war support our troops any less.  That my friend, is the point I've been trying to make.  You are free to disagree.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: be10dwn on June 30, 2005, 03:09:03 PM
Mustbeme, I doubt you ever served, even if you did I doubt you fought.  So shutthefuckup!

Alright man, since you can't play nice and debate like a normal human being, you have been reported.  Have a nice day
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: swordfish on June 30, 2005, 03:10:13 PM
Mustbeme, I doubt you ever served, even if you did I doubt you fought.  So shutthefuckup!

Alright man, since you can't play nice and debate like a normal human being, you have been reported.  Have a nice day

Wow you really are a tough guy. I've been reported, wow.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: The5thAce on June 30, 2005, 03:12:31 PM
Mustbeme, I doubt you ever served, even if you did I doubt you fought.  So shutthefuckup!

Alright man, since you can't play nice and debate like a normal human being, you have been reported.  Have a nice day

Wow you really are a tough guy. I've been reported, wow.

Why do you feel compelled to insult so many people?  I will not say whether I agree or disagree with your position on the war; however, I believe that you are hurting your own arguments by virtue of the manner in which you present them.  I do not mean to insult you, but I decided to offer this unsolicited advice.  Use it as you will.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: mxpocc on June 30, 2005, 03:12:45 PM
You see, I know how good it feels to be a part of something greater than myself.  To know that what I do truly matters.  To know that if I would have to sacrifice myself for my country, I'd be able to look God in the eye, knowing that there is no greater love than to lay down my life in defense of true liberty and freedom.

That kind of sentiment is very appealing, and I think, although it hasn't been put to the test, that if I believed that our military was something great and noble, and that our country was doing the right things for the right reasons, I would be willing to put my life on the line for that.  I might even be willing to put myself into a place where I would kill for that, though I'm not sure.

The problem is that I just don't have that kind of faith in our government, and its use of the military.  It's done too many terrible things in the past (as have most other governments; I'm not saying it's unique in that respect).  I wish I felt like our government was something I could trust and respect that much.

Hey Ms. Suger (presuming your female),

Granted, my job was to follow orders, not make policy decisions.  Still, none of us followed orders blindly.  If my conscience had ever bothered about what I was doing, I wouldn't've re upped twice.  And I can assure you that I follow my conscience as much as I can.  I also consider myself a good religious person, and believe that someday I'll have to answer for everything I've done.

I guess what bothers me is the presumption that the majority of the people were #1, poor, and #2, had no options other than join the military.  It makes it sound like we were just dumb fodder for the American military machine.  Of course we had some dim bulbs, but please tell me what large organization doesn't.

I'm not suggesting that there is some mystic nobility in being a member of the military.  I am saying that by far the main reason that the men and women who join it truly love their country and want to ensure that the God given opportunities and blessings that we have in the USA will still be there for our children and grandchildren.  Does anyone honestly believe that only 'dumb' and/or 'poor' people care about such things.

I can also honestly tell you that people like Julie Fern, with her "How Goes the Dirty Little War", is just a slap in the face to your American soldier.  I've been over there and let me tell you, the only "Dirty" thing going on are terrorists blowing up innocent people.  What the soldiers are doing, and more importantly, BELIEVE what we're doing, are routing out a rat's nest of terrorism.  Hopefully we're magnets for the terrorists so that the likelihood of such disgusting people committing such acts here are reduced.  None of us want to hurt of kill anyone, but, believe it or not, there is true evil in the world.  And there ultimately can only be one response to such matters.

I'm sorry you feel that our government has used our military terribly in the past.  Do you mind if I ask you for an example of two of what you're referring to?  It seems to me, if anything, people feel we don't use the military enough (ie Why haven't we invaded Cuba, North Korea, the Sudan, etc)

Anyway, if nothing else, I hope I engender a little more goodwill towards our service people.  They could really use it now.... more than ever.  It's a long fight ahead to protect this country.  Hell, I feel guilty for not still being out there.

 

Excellent post; it's a noble profession--but criticism of the politicians wielding the sword shouldn't be taken as criticism of the sword itself. I think people need to draw the line. When John Kerry says he disapproves of the war, he's not saying he disapproves of the military men fighting the war--for Christ's sake, he's saying those men don't deserve to die for unjust causes. I still don't understand how any military person can disagree with someone who is well intentioned on their behalf (even if it's indirectly so)

Finally, while a noble profession, it's not the ONLY noble profession available for an American to pursue; it's not the only cog in the wheel, and it, like many other professions, relies on a slew of other professions to even make it possible. Law is one of those professions.

What are militaries fighting for? A civilized country with its culture and way of life. What provides the infrastructure for that way of life--the very thing that, without which, a military would be a moot point? Law

Not that it's necessary to gas up a forum of future lawyers on the importance of their profession, but I think it's necessary to acknowledge the fact that other professions are, indeed, just as noble as that of the enlisted.

Also, if you wanted cookies, you should've stayed in kindergarten. I'd hope that our military people are emotionally strong enough to dismiss even direct criticism--not that I'd offer it, but honestly. If they're so convinced that the cause they fight for is just and correct, then criticism from Americans at home won't even phase them, right? If criticism bothers them, then it might suggest the possibility that they aren't fighting with their whole heart, and that would expose the very problem.

Criticism is necessary
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: swordfish on June 30, 2005, 03:14:59 PM
Mustbeme, I doubt you ever served, even if you did I doubt you fought.  So shutthefuckup!

Alright man, since you can't play nice and debate like a normal human being, you have been reported.  Have a nice day

What's wrong you can dish it out but not take it.  I'm not the only one slinging mud, I'm just the only one not complaining about it.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: be10dwn on June 30, 2005, 03:15:37 PM
Mustbeme, I doubt you ever served, even if you did I doubt you fought.  So shutthefuckup!

Alright man, since you can't play nice and debate like a normal human being, you have been reported.  Have a nice day

Wow you really are a tough guy. I've been reported, wow.

You're a moron and we are all dumber for having to listen to your ignorant rantings.  You make everyone who agrees with your viewpoint look stupid and I would put money that they would have nothing to do with you.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: swordfish on June 30, 2005, 03:16:02 PM
Mustbeme, I doubt you ever served, even if you did I doubt you fought.  So shutthefuckup!

Alright man, since you can't play nice and debate like a normal human being, you have been reported.  Have a nice day

Wow you really are a tough guy. I've been reported, wow.

Why do you feel compelled to insult so many people?  I will not say whether I agree or disagree with your position on the war; however, I believe that you are hurting your own arguments by virtue of the manner in which you present them.  I do not mean to insult you, but I decided to offer this unsolicited advice.  Use it as you will.

Cause I like to pick fights.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Intuition on June 30, 2005, 03:17:06 PM
This thread would have been much more entertaining if someone had followed up on my hijack attempt.

Oh well.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: swordfish on June 30, 2005, 03:17:11 PM
Mustbeme, I doubt you ever served, even if you did I doubt you fought.  So shutthefuckup!

Alright man, since you can't play nice and debate like a normal human being, you have been reported.  Have a nice day

Wow you really are a tough guy. I've been reported, wow.

You're a moron and we are all dumber for having to listen to your ignorant rantings.  You make everyone who agrees with your viewpoint look stupid and I would put money that they would have nothing to do with you.

I agree, HAHA
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: sarmstrong806 on June 30, 2005, 03:35:16 PM
*BAFFED* for later
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Perversely on June 30, 2005, 06:38:13 PM
Mustbeme, I doubt you ever served, even if you did I doubt you fought.  So shutthefuckup!

Alright man, since you can't play nice and debate like a normal human being, you have been reported.  Have a nice day

Wow you really are a tough guy. I've been reported, wow.

You're a moron and we are all dumber for having to listen to your ignorant rantings.  You make everyone who agrees with your viewpoint look stupid and I would put money that they would have nothing to do with you.

you're not nearly as clever as you think you are.

just because you are able to identify an argument type, it doesn't mean you're right.

bush needS to do more.  talk is cheap.  if he believed in this war as much as he says he does, he would insist that his daughters enlist.  he would insist that every member of congress enlist their daughters, their sons, their grand kids....oh i forgot, they don't need to serve, they'll go to college.

no child left behind MY BLACK A*S!

if you believe in this war, why don't you just forget about law school and go commit suicide because you have nothing else better to do?
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Perversely on June 30, 2005, 06:42:45 PM
utterly ridiculous.


what's ridiculous?
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Perversely on June 30, 2005, 06:49:44 PM
perversely name 3 things in the next 5 minutes that the No Child Left Behind law does and why they are bad policy prescriptions.  Don't go look up moveon.orgs talking points either. Give me stuff fast.  I doubt you even know much about NCLB, I did my thesis on it and will destroy you if you try to debate me.  But to quote GW, Bring em on.

it says we need to:
1) test
2) not be held accountable for not testing
3) not change how all public schools learn
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: djladyjo on June 30, 2005, 06:50:12 PM
just got home from happy hour... just changing to go out drinking some more... so i dont have time to read 4 pages of threads... but my answer to the OP IS:

YES!!!!
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Perversely on June 30, 2005, 06:51:32 PM
utterly ridiculous.


what's ridiculous?

::sigh:: where do i begin?  have we not figured out how the world works yet?  there is no fairness dammit.....never has been and never will be.  Why don't we just open our eyes to the reality that power in this world is maintained through A)killing and B)wealth 

it'll never change.

the fairness begins with you.  decide to be fair.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: mxpocc on June 30, 2005, 06:58:00 PM
how much funding did Bush allocate for the implementation of NCLB?
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Perversely on June 30, 2005, 07:05:11 PM
i'm waiting for your rebuttal.  you gave me 5 minutes.  i'm giving you 3 more before i sign off.

the no child left behind theory, IN THEORY, is wonderful. but, the reality is that although there is funding to help, there's no real progress in changing how children learn across the board.  bottom line.  there needs to be some fundamental changes in how children learn.  there shouldn't be a HUGE disparity between the level of education a child receives when they attend a private school oppose to attending a public one.

our public schools can do more.  they should do more.  & it begins with not only giving money to those schools, it begins by sending a message to the families that they need to care or else....  it begins by allowing a student in any neighbor access to the same quality of an education that one would receive at the best private school.  & it's more than just class size...

the no child left behind should do more than weed students who don't test well out...did you know more minorities aren't graduating from high school because of testing.  geewiz...i wonder why is that!
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: swordfish on June 30, 2005, 07:06:16 PM
perversely name 3 things in the next 5 minutes that the No Child Left Behind law does and why they are bad policy prescriptions.  Don't go look up moveon.orgs talking points either. Give me stuff fast.  I doubt you even know much about NCLB, I did my thesis on it and will destroy you if you try to debate me.  But to quote GW, Bring em on.

it says we need to:
1) test
2) not be held accountable for not testing
3) not change how all public schools learn

First of all as for the last 2, they are double negatives and i can hardly see how a positivist piece of legislation can include as policy perscriptions qua policy double negatives.  and yes NCLB mandates testing.  andy why shouldnt it mandate that we test.  the public (you know the first word in the clause public school) in poll after poll supports using tests to gauge performance.  would you then suggest that the public, the very public who funds these schools not be entitled to see what its tax dollars is generating in terms of accomplishments via accountability.  lemme guess you would prefer more holistic arts and crafts style evaluative sh*t to determine performance.  tests are a part of life.  ever heard of the LSAT. It's a small test you might have heard of.

At the risk of being reported to the MOD's, becaue righties are so sensitive now.  Your a pompous prick, I did my thesis on this and will destroy you, LMAO.  Ever heard of the LSAT, pretentiousasshole!!
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: swordfish on June 30, 2005, 07:09:14 PM
did you know more minorities aren't graduating from high school because of testing.  geewiz...i wonder why is that!


enlighten us.  what's wrong with having standards?

probably because nobody cares about them in this admin.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: be10dwn on June 30, 2005, 07:09:35 PM
Wow this thread took a turn to the ludicrous huh.  I'm pretty sure I never on any of these pages said what my political leanings were.  I'm pretty sure I took an objective view that if someone doesnt like something, they should come up with an alternative instead of simply whining  about it.  I never said I subscribed to any one specific political philosophy, but hey if you want to assume what my positions are, well, we know what assuming does.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: swordfish on June 30, 2005, 07:10:18 PM


At the risk of being reported to the MOD's,


mods?  what f-ing mods?

Some sissy on here earlier reported me to the mod's for having a potty mouth.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Perversely on June 30, 2005, 07:11:22 PM


the fairness begins with you.  decide to be fair.

I appreciate your enthusiasm to change things.  I think it's noble.  Honestly.

but have you ever noticed how dirty and utterly disgusting protesters look?  Playing outside the rules of the game gets you absolutely nowhere.  If you really want to make changes in the world, and fairness is out of the question, you have to do it from within the system.  I realize this is way beyond the scope of your post, but i'm talkative right now.


don't be talkative.  the only way to make change...real change, is from within--from within one's self.

Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: be10dwn on June 30, 2005, 07:13:27 PM
Swordfish, you have not added a single word of intelligence to this conversation.  Once again, it is you who assumes that one is a "righty" because they don't agree with your ignorant rantings.  If you have some shred of intellect to add to this conversation, please do.  Until then, go back to thinking of all the ways that you can sound stupid next.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Perversely on June 30, 2005, 07:14:02 PM
how much funding did Bush allocate for the implementation of NCLB?
That sort of question is shows you to be less than knowledgable on NCLB and how it functions.  NCLB, much to Mr. Kerry's chagrin, was and never is an "unfunded mandate."  Why not. Well first, its not a mandate.  States may decide whether they want to comply- UTAH is considering not tagging on this year.  When states don't comply they lose the portion of federal funds they would otherwise receive.  The figure below in the link I've provided shows how education funding has risen (something that I as a critic of the public education system) am not happy about.  Funding has very little to do with educational outcomes and success. Washington DC for instance has the highest funding per pupil of any district in the nation, some 14,000 a year per pupil, yet they boast some of the worst scores in the nation.  NCLB is designed to be an accountability system that gives kids a chance to get some free tutoring or a switch to another public school if schools fail to improve.  Funding is not the issue.  By reasonable standards AMerican public schools are funded incredibly generously and the per pupil funding is higher than some of the most socialist european nations known for their generousity in funding social programs (e.g. France, Sweden, you name it).


http://www.educationnext.org/20042/images/peyserfig2.gif

rhetoric is getting old.

i'm waiting for your rebuttal.  you gave me 5 minutes.  i'm giving you 3 more before i sign off.

the no child left behind theory, IN THEORY, is wonderful. but, the reality is that although there is funding to help, there's no real progress in changing how children learn across the board.  bottom line.  there needs to be some fundamental changes in how children learn.  there shouldn't be a HUGE disparity between the level of education a child receives when they attend a private school oppose to attending a public one.

our public schools can do more.  they should do more.  & it begins with not only giving money to those schools, it begins by sending a message to the families that they need to care or else....  it begins by allowing a student in any neighbor access to the same quality of an education that one would receive at the best private school.  & it's more than just class size...

the no child left behind should do more than weed students who don't test well out...did you know more minorities aren't graduating from high school because of testing.  geewiz...i wonder why is that!
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Hegel on June 30, 2005, 07:19:22 PM
In general (and I'm not singling out people here, I should say) I think the liberal attitude toward servicemen and women is interesting...on the one hand, the look down their noses at them (hence the comment about poor people...and while foose probably didn't mean it the way I read it, it is common liberal thinking that most troops are from lower middle class backgrounds) and yet pretend to honor and revere them. You don't exalt someone you believe is beneath you. Liberals can't have it both ways.

lower middle class == upper poor class
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Hegel on June 30, 2005, 07:23:29 PM
Also, the military is overwhelming conservative.  I remember reading the Stars and Stripes last November which reported that about 80%.... THAT'S 80%.... of our armed forces who voted voted for Bush over Kerry.

Bush is not conservative.  He's as radical as they come.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: swordfish on June 30, 2005, 07:25:32 PM
Also, the military is overwhelming conservative.  I remember reading the Stars and Stripes last November which reported that about 80%.... THAT'S 80%.... of our armed forces who voted voted for Bush over Kerry.

Bush is not conservative.  He's as radical as they come.

amen to that
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Perversely on June 30, 2005, 07:29:32 PM
perversely, maybe we in fact agree, you mention wanting a public school education to offer more of what a private school education does.  i take it you would support vouchers then.  great, i do.  you know funding really isnt an issue. catholic schools in NYC spend 1/3 of what the average public school does and get 30000 times the testing results.  and these arent lily white catholic schools they are some of the most heavily minority populated schools in NY.

no, no freakin' vouchers!  fix the freakin problem!  don't put a bandaide on it and say, "hey, we tried"!!!! because you know what's going to happen???? not everyone will take advantage of it.  not everyone will know how.  not everyone will be able to entirely.

yeah, i'm a communist.  my name is mrs. castro.

call me anything, just don't call me a republican!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

no, seriously, i think the 'no child left behind' law or laws that have been brewing because of this initiative have been wonderful...however, if a law says it's going to do something, it should do it.

to imply 'no child left behind'...i would think they mean ALL CHILDREN will have a chance.

currently, ALL CHILDREN don't have a chance.

we're just looking at another form of what's going on in asia and in europe.  do we want or need a classist society that begs to treat people differently, depending on the side of the tracks where a person has been raised.  aren't we better than that?

i would hope so.  with the needless war, our fleeting manufacturing base, and a number of countless issues this country faces today, do you really think we can afford to be this selective.

let's face it:  rich people aren't having the babies in this country.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: swordfish on June 30, 2005, 07:29:40 PM
Swordfish, you have not added a single word of intelligence to this conversation.  Once again, it is you who assumes that one is a "righty" because they don't agree with your ignorant rantings.  If you have some shred of intellect to add to this conversation, please do.  Until then, go back to thinking of all the ways that you can sound stupid next.

I defame people.  I have yet to try to anything positive or intelligent to anything.  That's not the reason God put me on here.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: swordfish on June 30, 2005, 07:32:23 PM
perversely, maybe we in fact agree, you mention wanting a public school education to offer more of what a private school education does.  i take it you would support vouchers then.  great, i do.  you know funding really isnt an issue. catholic schools in NYC spend 1/3 of what the average public school does and get 30000 times the testing results.  and these arent lily white catholic schools they are some of the most heavily minority populated schools in NY.

no, no freakin' vouchers!  fix the freakin problem!  don't put a bandaide on it and say, "hey, we tried"!!!! because you know what's going to happen???? not everyone will take advantage of it.  not everyone will know how.  not everyone will be able to entirely.

yeah, i'm a communist.  my name is mrs. castro.

call me anything, just don't call me a republican!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

no, seriously, i think the 'no child left behind' law or laws that have been brewing because of this initiative have been wonderful...however, if a law says it's going to do something, it should do it.

to imply 'no child left behind'...i would think they mean ALL CHILDREN will have a chance.

currently, ALL CHILDREN don't have a chance.

we're just looking at another form of what's going on in asia and in europe.  do we want or need a classist society that begs to treat people differently, depending on the side of the tracks where a person has been raised.  aren't we better than that?

i would hope so.  with the needless war, our fleeting manufacturing base, and a number of countless issues this country faces today, do you really think we can afford to be this selective.

let's face it:  rich people aren't having the babies in this country.

Yep, you can curse my momma and call me what you want just don't call me a republican
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: be10dwn on June 30, 2005, 07:32:37 PM
Thats just rhetoric.  Bush is radical blah blah blah.  The original point was credible.  The military voted for Bush and they are the main consituency taking the fallout from this war and bearing its burden. If it passes their muster, then who are you to say that Bush's war is radical and Bush is radical.  Apparently a larger percentage of the American people found Monseniur Kerry to be the more radical candidate because a few million more voters said no to his agenda.

What agenda? He never had any plan but to be against anything the Pres was for.  I'm no fan of Reps or Dems for that matter, but for Christ's sake, give me a choice of candidates to vote for. If you think I should vote for you, tell me what you can  do for me and our country. Don't just tell me that the other guy  is wrong.  Give me an alternative of how things could be under you.  That's all I ask.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: swordfish on June 30, 2005, 07:32:46 PM
who will people blame for the world's problems once Bush isn't around anymore? 

You
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: be10dwn on June 30, 2005, 07:34:26 PM
Swordfish, you have not added a single word of intelligence to this conversation.  Once again, it is you who assumes that one is a "righty" because they don't agree with your ignorant rantings.  If you have some shred of intellect to add to this conversation, please do.  Until then, go back to thinking of all the ways that you can sound stupid next.

I defame people.  I have yet to try to anything positive or intelligent to anything.  That's not the reason God put me on here.
You must live a sad life then.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: swordfish on June 30, 2005, 07:34:37 PM
here's to hopin'!!!

LMOA, or me it doesn't really matter.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: swordfish on June 30, 2005, 07:35:25 PM
Swordfish, you have not added a single word of intelligence to this conversation.  Once again, it is you who assumes that one is a "righty" because they don't agree with your ignorant rantings.  If you have some shred of intellect to add to this conversation, please do.  Until then, go back to thinking of all the ways that you can sound stupid next.

I defame people.  I have yet to try to anything positive or intelligent to anything.  That's not the reason God put me on here.
You must live a sad life then.

I'm just tryin' to do God's will, don't hate the messenger.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: swordfish on June 30, 2005, 07:36:10 PM
I make people cry, because it makes me feel better about myself.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: swordfish on June 30, 2005, 07:38:06 PM
Ok, here's a question for allayas.  Since I seem to hurt people's feelings, I'm willing to become politically correct and compliment everybody.  Is this what you want?  Or can I continue to defame the world, as God has instructed me to?
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: swordfish on June 30, 2005, 07:39:53 PM
i hear ya sword.  I've had a few tonight....the old Phanatic seems to have taken over a little.

I'm Irish I drink every night and day.  Have a Guinness on me.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Hegel on June 30, 2005, 07:40:24 PM
Thats just rhetoric.  Bush is radical blah blah blah.  The original point was credible.  The military voted for Bush and they are the main consituency taking the fallout from this war and bearing its burden. If it passes their muster, then who are you to say that Bush's war is radical and Bush is radical.  Apparently a larger percentage of the American people found Monseniur Kerry to be the more radical candidate because a few million more voters said no to his agenda.

The military and others voted for Bush because they figured that voting for someone else wouold make it look like the terrorists won.  It had little to do with their actually believing in his policies.

BTW, Bush was SUNK until 911 happened!  Giulani was an embarrasment as well until 911.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: swordfish on June 30, 2005, 07:40:57 PM
why do protesters choose dread locks as their favorite hairstyle?  

It gives them street credibility
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: swordfish on June 30, 2005, 07:42:06 PM
How about we just let natural selection run its course?

I'm all for natural selection, maybe then I'll be put out of my misery.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: be10dwn on June 30, 2005, 07:42:22 PM
Thats just rhetoric.  Bush is radical blah blah blah.  The original point was credible.  The military voted for Bush and they are the main consituency taking the fallout from this war and bearing its burden. If it passes their muster, then who are you to say that Bush's war is radical and Bush is radical.  Apparently a larger percentage of the American people found Monseniur Kerry to be the more radical candidate because a few million more voters said no to his agenda.

The military and others voted for Bush because they figured that voting for someone else wouold make it look like the terrorists won.  It had little to do with their actually believing in his policies.

BTW, Bush was SUNK until 911 happened!  Giulani was an embarrasment as well until 911.

Hmm 9/11 was what, NINE months into the administration?  Sunk huh? 
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Perversely on June 30, 2005, 07:43:07 PM
perversely, maybe we in fact agree, you mention wanting a public school education to offer more of what a private school education does.  i take it you would support vouchers then.  great, i do.  you know funding really isnt an issue. catholic schools in NYC spend 1/3 of what the average public school does and get 30000 times the testing results.  and these arent lily white catholic schools they are some of the most heavily minority populated schools in NY.

no, no freakin' vouchers!  fix the freakin problem!  don't put a bandaide on it and say, "hey, we tried"!!!! because you know what's going to happen???? not everyone will take advantage of it.  not everyone will know how.  not everyone will be able to entirely.

yeah, i'm a communist.  my name is mrs. castro.

call me anything, just don't call me a republican!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

no, seriously, i think the 'no child left behind' law or laws that have been brewing because of this initiative have been wonderful...however, if a law says it's going to do something, it should do it.

to imply 'no child left behind'...i would think they mean ALL CHILDREN will have a chance.

currently, ALL CHILDREN don't have a chance.

we're just looking at another form of what's going on in asia and in europe.  do we want or need a classist society that begs to treat people differently, depending on the side of the tracks where a person has been raised.  aren't we better than that?

i would hope so.  with the needless war, our fleeting manufacturing base, and a number of countless issues this country faces today, do you really think we can afford to be this selective.

let's face it:  rich people aren't having the babies in this country.

okay, i've given you like 20 minutes...i'm signing off.  you haven't convinced me that bush really cares about PEOPLE other than his cronies.

you haven't convinced me that bush shouldn't send his daughters to iraq....let's not forget the topic here.

Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: be10dwn on June 30, 2005, 07:43:33 PM
OOh phanatic, you are just begging for the "the Supreme Court screwed us" argument to be started again.  LOL 
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: MustBMe on June 30, 2005, 07:43:53 PM
Mustbeme, I doubt you ever served, even if you did I doubt you fought.  So shutthefuckup!

Alright man, since you can't play nice and debate like a normal human being, you have been reported.  Have a nice day

Wow you really are a tough guy. I've been reported, wow.

You're a moron and we are all dumber for having to listen to your ignorant rantings.  You make everyone who agrees with your viewpoint look stupid and I would put money that they would have nothing to do with you.

Hey Be10dwn,

I appreicate your efforts to get Swordfish to behave in a more respectful manner, but honestly, don't waste your time.

Part of his lashing out may be due to his anger over his father being an injured vet, or maybe b/c his friend died.  I assuming both facts to be true, but have some reservations about it.  Lord knows that if they are true, both men would be ashamed of his behavior.  That's probably punishment enough.

Look, he's young, probably still in his mid teens.  Let him rant.  We've all done things we're not proud of - this is just his turn.

In any event, I've appreciated your comments throughout this thread.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Hegel on June 30, 2005, 07:44:24 PM


BTW, Bush was SUNK until 911 happened!  Giulani was an embarrasment as well until 911.

good to know, now who cares?  he won a second term.  2 for 2.

Thankfully, he has no terms left.  He got his second term by taking us to war, Dude.  Got it?
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: swordfish on June 30, 2005, 07:47:27 PM
Mustbeme, I doubt you ever served, even if you did I doubt you fought.  So shutthefuckup!

Alright man, since you can't play nice and debate like a normal human being, you have been reported.  Have a nice day

Wow you really are a tough guy. I've been reported, wow.

You're a moron and we are all dumber for having to listen to your ignorant rantings.  You make everyone who agrees with your viewpoint look stupid and I would put money that they would have nothing to do with you.

Hey Be10dwn,

I appreicate your efforts to get Swordfish to behave in a more respectful manner, but honestly, don't waste your time.

Part of his lashing out may be due to his anger over his father being an injured vet, or maybe b/c his friend died.  I assuming both facts to be true, but have some reservations about it.  Lord knows that if they are true, both men would be ashamed of his behavior.  That's probably punishment enough.

Look, he's young, probably still in his mid teens.  Let him rant.  We've all done things we're not proud of - this is just his turn.

In any event, I've appreciated your comments throughout this thread.

I only regret mentioning my dad and my friend, guess my emotions got the best of me for a sec.  In all seriousness can you guys not understand sarcasm, look at all of my post.  I refuse to be serious.  You all did catch me for a second earlier today, guess I should apologize for that.  The rest is just shits and giggles for me.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Hegel on June 30, 2005, 07:47:40 PM
now that theory of yours is hegelian indeed.  give me a break, voting for W because they didnt want to make it seem like the terrorists won.  that's about as bad as Dr. I Had A Scream Dean and his accepting the theory that W Knew about 9-11 beforehand.  Wow some LSDrs are really drinking the moveon.org koolaid tonight.

Check your history, wiz.  Presidents get support when they are at the beginning of a war.

What else did Bush bring to the table other than ... 911 ... New York ... Giuliani ... Iraq ... 911 ... New York ... blah blah blah ... idiots
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: MustBMe on June 30, 2005, 07:48:15 PM


BTW, Bush was SUNK until 911 happened!  Giulani was an embarrasment as well until 911.

good to know, now who cares?  he won a second term.  2 for 2.

Thankfully, he has no terms left.  He got his second term by taking us to war, Dude.  Got it?

I spent 15 months in Iraq.  I've seen the things terrorists do.  Trust me, we're doing the right thing over there.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: swordfish on June 30, 2005, 07:51:51 PM
For cryin' out loud mustbme, you made me get serious for a second there.  You caught me off guard with the comment about my dad and my friend.  I forgot that I wrote that earlier, seeing blood I guess.  If I have offended anybody I'm sorry, but for the most part I'm just entertaining myself.  Sorry guys, I guess I shall retire now.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: MustBMe on June 30, 2005, 07:52:47 PM
Mustbeme, I doubt you ever served, even if you did I doubt you fought.  So shutthefuckup!

Alright man, since you can't play nice and debate like a normal human being, you have been reported.  Have a nice day

Wow you really are a tough guy. I've been reported, wow.

You're a moron and we are all dumber for having to listen to your ignorant rantings.  You make everyone who agrees with your viewpoint look stupid and I would put money that they would have nothing to do with you.

Hey Be10dwn,

I appreicate your efforts to get Swordfish to behave in a more respectful manner, but honestly, don't waste your time.

Part of his lashing out may be due to his anger over his father being an injured vet, or maybe b/c his friend died.  I assuming both facts to be true, but have some reservations about it.  Lord knows that if they are true, both men would be ashamed of his behavior.  That's probably punishment enough.

Look, he's young, probably still in his mid teens.  Let him rant.  We've all done things we're not proud of - this is just his turn.

In any event, I've appreciated your comments throughout this thread.

I only regret mentioning my dad and my friend, guess my emotions got the best of me for a sec.  In all seriousness can you guys not understand sarcasm, look at all of my post.  I refuse to be serious.  You all did catch me for a second earlier today, guess I should apologize for that.  The rest is just shits and giggles for me.

I bear you no ill will Swordfish.  I recognize a rabble rouser when I read one.  Hell, I've served with more than few.  We need a few souls like that around when things are tense, both to lighten the mood and to mark themselves for a serious arse kicking when we got back to base!

Don't sweat.  And hey, think about picking up where your poppa left off.  

Happy 4th!
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: be10dwn on June 30, 2005, 07:52:55 PM
The GWB should send his daughters to Iraq is such a stupid argument that I don't even know where to begin.  First of all, the job as President is to decide whether or not to send the armed service into a war that, btw, was approved by Congress.  All cynicism aside, do you think it is decision a President would take lightly, knowing that young men and women are going to be killed?  It is his job to make tough decisions.  I believe, like it or not, the President didn't make the decision to go to war because it was the politically correct thing to do.  He believed it was the right thing to do, and with the CONSENT OF CONGRESS, he made that decision.  If his daughters for some reason enlisted, the same people that are now saying they should enlist will be the ones saying that it is a political stunt.  The children of a sitting presdient can't feasibly enlsit in the armed services.  That must be obvious right?
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: swordfish on June 30, 2005, 07:53:13 PM
Swordfish out forever and always
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Perversely on June 30, 2005, 07:54:42 PM
it's easy to not think about children when their parents are the problem.  it's easy to think it's the parentss responsibility when they're addicted to drugs or are incabable of caring for a soul.  it's real easy to discount all that when you want to prove a point.

my point is this:  just because there's funding to schools, it doesn't mean that it's being used wisely.  we need to do more.  we need to be held accountable for our future.

and if it means looking at each student as an individual in one way or another (aside from just as a test score) WE NEED TO DO IT!

i don't claim to have the end-all answers to our public school system woes & i certainly don't claim to think that bush can work "miracles"...HOWEVER, i do believe the current system and the proposed system DON'T WORK. & to say it does is a cop out....a missed opportunity.

what if in 80 years, the U.S. is considered a third-world nation...what then?  there's no more oil.  there are few people who can communicate in any other language other than English...the economy is global...where are we then?  where are those few richy rich kids?  they're in europe, hopefully.


ps:  i'm going to bed.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Hegel on June 30, 2005, 07:56:29 PM
The GWB should send his daughters to Iraq is such a stupid argument that I don't even know where to begin.  First of all, the job as President is to decide whether or not to send the armed service into a war that, btw, was approved by Congress.  All cynicism aside, do you think it is decision a President would take lightly, knowing that young men and women are going to be killed?  It is his job to make tough decisions.  I believe, like it or not, the President didn't make the decision to go to war because it was the politically correct thing to do.  He believed it was the right thing to do, and with the CONSENT OF CONGRESS, he made that decision.  If his daughters for some reason enlisted, the same people that are now saying they should enlist will be the ones saying that it is a political stunt.  The children of a sitting presdient can't feasibly enlsit in the armed services.  That must be obvious right?

Don't the members of that silly Royal family across the pond enlist in the military?  Didn't Elvis and a few very popular boxers fight in wars?  Are you saying that the Bush girls are more famous the Elvis? ;)

Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: be10dwn on June 30, 2005, 07:56:42 PM
Thanks MUST for the kind words. 
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: be10dwn on June 30, 2005, 07:58:13 PM
The GWB should send his daughters to Iraq is such a stupid argument that I don't even know where to begin.  First of all, the job as President is to decide whether or not to send the armed service into a war that, btw, was approved by Congress.  All cynicism aside, do you think it is decision a President would take lightly, knowing that young men and women are going to be killed?  It is his job to make tough decisions.  I believe, like it or not, the President didn't make the decision to go to war because it was the politically correct thing to do.  He believed it was the right thing to do, and with the CONSENT OF CONGRESS, he made that decision.  If his daughters for some reason enlisted, the same people that are now saying they should enlist will be the ones saying that it is a political stunt.  The children of a sitting presdient can't feasibly enlsit in the armed services.  That must be obvious right?

Don't the members of that silly Royal family across the pond enlist in the military?  Didn't Elvis and a few very popular boxers fight in wars?  Are you saying that the Bush girls are more famous the Elvis? ;)



Its like pounding mhy head into a brick wall listening to these insane arguments. LOL HTH
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Hegel on June 30, 2005, 08:00:12 PM
Its like pounding mhy head into a brick wall listening to these insane arguments. LOL HTH

Man, we are in agreement there ;)
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: MustBMe on June 30, 2005, 08:04:44 PM

I spent 15 months in Iraq.  I've seen the things terrorists do.  Trust me, we're doing the right thing over there.

thanks for your service.  sincerely.

I appreciate it.  You'd be surprised how many service people are just like the people who post on this board - there are some very different opinions out there in the field, trust me.

I just hope you recognize none of us soldier types are being 'duped' by our goverenment over in the Middle East.  We sincerely believe in what we're doing in Iraq. Nothing would make me happier than to see those Iraqis' lead the Middle East into an era of democracy, human rights, & peace.  

Ya know, I've spent a good chunck of time in a lot rough, scary places in the world.  The hope is is that we're both helping protect our country AND make the lives of the people in those countries better.  Could the methodology be better sometimes?  Sure.  But I believe in my soul that the USA does the best in can in a complicated, dangerous world.

Speaking as someone who's seen both the worst and best of humanity in a lot of places around the globe, I think I can say better than most that God has truly blessed America, and blessed each and every one of us by allowing us to reside here.  

God Bless America, and God Bless each and every one of you crazy kids - even those who think that sending daughters into harms way is the right thing to do.

Have a Happy 4th!
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Perversely on June 30, 2005, 08:05:40 PM
one more point about our wonderful president:

if someone cares so passionately about killing someone else's kid, that person should at least give honest reasons why.

i'm still waiting for the "weapons of MASS DESTRUCTION".

even if iraq had weapons of mass destruction...they couldn't deploy them.  they simply just don't have the technology.  aaaah...but we do. hmm.

i love this country...i love my country...please don't send me to guantanamo bay cuba.  i'm a darkie.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: bonkerselite on June 30, 2005, 08:12:49 PM
Geez, you all made that idiot swordfish quit.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: MustBMe on June 30, 2005, 08:14:04 PM
one more point about our wonderful president:

if someone cares so passionately about killing someone else's kid, that person should at least give honest reasons why.

i'm still waiting for the "weapons of MASS DESTRUCTION".

even if iraq had weapons of mass destruction...they couldn't deploy them.  they simply just don't have the technology.  aaaah...but we do. hmm.

i love this country...i love my country...please don't send me to guantanamo bay cuba.  i'm a darkie.

As someone who's served side by side with men of every nationality, and who's life was saved by a black buddy over in Iraq, I just have to shake my head at that comment.  

We in the military try to be the example of what America should always strive towards - a color blind society.  Trust me, every man stands on his own merits in the military.  I never so much as heard a racist joke during my service.  You succeed and fail on your own merits.  Every ones blood runs red when shot.

As far as Gitmo.... they holding some very bad people there.  Pray for the service men who have to guard them.  They have to have more courage than most could ever hope to have.  And they do it to help keep us safe.

Good night all.  
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: bonkerselite on June 30, 2005, 08:16:36 PM
I've been lurking for a while and this thread motivated me to join in.  I hate war but I appreciate what we're doing over there.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Perversely on June 30, 2005, 08:19:57 PM


Quote


don't be talkative.  the only way to make change...real change, is from within--from within one's self.


Quote

are you serious?  if so, i'm disappointed in this retort.


yes, i'm serious. there's absolutely nothing wrong with that retort.  why are you disappointed?  don't be disappointed in yourself....

i'm really jazzed that i was able to give you some optimistic outlook on where you need draw your best energies from....


Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Perversely on June 30, 2005, 08:22:04 PM
I've been lurking for a while and this thread motivated me to join in.  I hate war but I appreciate what we're doing over there.

what do you think we are doing over there?
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Hegel on June 30, 2005, 08:30:52 PM
I just hope you recognize none of us soldier types are being 'duped' by our goverenment over in the Middle East.  We sincerely believe in what we're doing in Iraq. Nothing would make me happier than to see those Iraqis' lead the Middle East into an era of democracy, human rights, & peace.   

You seem earnest, and I agree there are plenty of servicemen that really care about those Iraquis.  However, did you really serve over there?  Because, I have plenty of friends that are serving there that do not feel the war is worth it.  Your use of the word "none" makes me doubt.

I could give a hoot about the Iraquis, until the Iraquis give a hoot about themselves.  It shouldn't take the US and some of my friends to kick a flame in their buns.  The Iraquis need to fight their own revolution.  You are kidding yourself if you think otherwise.  A power vacuum is a natural process that needs to be sorted out by the parties IN THE VACUUM.  All Bush is doing is substituting Iraqui lives for American lives to sort out the all-fearful "POWER VACUUM".  Oooohhh ... scary.  Oh yeah, Bush created the "POWER VACUUM" by taking out Sadam in the first place!

Even if there is a fleating Democracy in Iraq ... big freaking deal!  How long will it last if they didn't fight for it themselves?  They won't respect what they didn't earn.

BTW, many in the military also think Iraq was a stupid mistake started by civilian leaders for bogus reasons.  I'm out.

Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Tony Brooks1 on June 30, 2005, 08:37:09 PM
should dems be killed first in the next terrorist attack then?
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Perversely on June 30, 2005, 08:42:03 PM
I just hope you recognize none of us soldier types are being 'duped' by our goverenment over in the Middle East.  We sincerely believe in what we're doing in Iraq. Nothing would make me happier than to see those Iraqis' lead the Middle East into an era of democracy, human rights, & peace.   

You seem earnest, and I agree there are plenty of servicemen that really care about those Iraquis.  However, did you really serve over there?  Because, I have plenty of friends that are serving there that do not feel the war is worth it.  Your use of the word "none" makes me doubt.

I could give a hoot about the Iraquis, until the Iraquis give a hoot about themselves.  It shouldn't take the US and some of my friends to kick a flame in their buns.  The Iraquis need to fight their own revolution.  You are kidding yourself if you think otherwise.  A power vacuum is a natural process that needs to be sorted out by the parties IN THE VACUUM.  All Bush is doing is substituting Iraqui lives for American lives to sort out the all-fearful "POWER VACUUM".  Oooohhh ... scary.  Oh yeah, Bush created the "POWER VACUUM" by taking out Sadam in the first place!

Even if there is a fleating Democracy in Iraq ... big freaking deal!  How long will it last if they didn't fight for it themselves?  They won't respect what they didn't earn.

BTW, many in the military also think Iraq was a stupid mistake started by civilian leaders for bogus reasons.  I'm out.



yay!!!!! a reasonable person in unreasonable times...yay!!!!! i'm so happy there are other people who actually READ, really read about what's going on in our world. 

oh hegel...where hae you been hiding most of my adult life in corporate america?
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: mxpocc on June 30, 2005, 09:20:40 PM
how much funding did Bush allocate for the implementation of NCLB?



That sort of question is shows you to be less than knowledgable on NCLB and how it functions.  NCLB, much to Mr. Kerry's chagrin, was and never is an "unfunded mandate."  Why not. Well first, its not a mandate.  States may decide whether they want to comply- UTAH is considering not tagging on this year.  When states don't comply they lose the portion of federal funds they would otherwise receive.  The figure below in the link I've provided shows how education funding has risen (something that I as a critic of the public education system) am not happy about.  Funding has very little to do with educational outcomes and success. Washington DC for instance has the highest funding per pupil of any district in the nation, some 14,000 a year per pupil, yet they boast some of the worst scores in the nation.  NCLB is designed to be an accountability system that gives kids a chance to get some free tutoring or a switch to another public school if schools fail to improve.  Funding is not the issue.  By reasonable standards AMerican public schools are funded incredibly generously and the per pupil funding is higher than some of the most socialist european nations known for their generousity in funding social programs (e.g. France, Sweden, you name it).


http://www.educationnext.org/20042/images/peyserfig2.gif

actually it shows me not to be an idiot who thinks i know everything.

i asked a simple question.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: mxpocc on June 30, 2005, 09:24:22 PM
one more point about our wonderful president:

if someone cares so passionately about killing someone else's kid, that person should at least give honest reasons why.

i'm still waiting for the "weapons of MASS DESTRUCTION".

even if iraq had weapons of mass destruction...they couldn't deploy them.  they simply just don't have the technology.  aaaah...but we do. hmm.

i love this country...i love my country...please don't send me to guantanamo bay cuba.  i'm a darkie.

As someone who's served side by side with men of every nationality, and who's life was saved by a black buddy over in Iraq, I just have to shake my head at that comment. 

We in the military try to be the example of what America should always strive towards - a color blind society.  Trust me, every man stands on his own merits in the military.  I never so much as heard a racist joke during my service.  You succeed and fail on your own merits.  Every ones blood runs red when shot.

As far as Gitmo.... they holding some very bad people there.  Pray for the service men who have to guard them.  They have to have more courage than most could ever hope to have.  And they do it to help keep us safe.

Good night all. 

my father, a mexican american, served 8yrs in the army during the vietnam war period, and was stationed in germany. he has first hand accounts that totally negate the bull you just said; the military, at least as recently as the 60s and 70s, was more racially charged than civilian society, according to my dad.

it's been 30+ years, but i highly doubt that you and your fellow service men are models for racial tolerance.

and of course, when you're in the foxhole, you're not going to have time to be a bigot: that "black" man could save your life. all you're worried about is keeping your ass alive

it's a little more honorable to maintain tolerance in peace time
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: CajunDynamo on July 01, 2005, 04:57:45 AM
Quote
it's been 30+ years, but i highly doubt that you and your fellow service men are models for racial tolerance.
Quote

Well, at least you're keeping an open mind about it.  I didn't ever notice the guy saying anything about his race.  I just figured he was an American.  He could have a Mexican background for all you and I know.

Quote
and of course, when you're in the foxhole, you're not going to have time to be a bigot: that "black" man could save your life. all you're worried about is keeping your ass alive
Quote

Speaking from first hand experience, right?  I think it's more likely that you're speaking out of some other part of your anatomy.

Quote
it's a little more honorable to maintain tolerance in peace time
Quote

Really?  I'm just a regular ol' civilian myself.  I'm guessing you are too.  Seeing as how neither one of us served, I find it fascinating you're able to weight the value of one greater than the other.

These LSD boards rock.  They always provide me with my "you're not going to believe what some people believe" schtick for the day.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: elemnopee on July 01, 2005, 06:44:48 AM
What the hell happened to my thread?

First, Iraq has no WMD, no connections to Al Qaeada, and no active nuclear weapons program.  We are not in Iraq to protect against an imminent threat.  There were no terrorists in Iraq untill we go there (I'm not calling our soldiers terrorists)

Second, fighting in Iraq was not necassary then, but is crucial now.  I don't know if the American people have the resolve to fight the war.

My OP, was to point out that when deciding to go/support a war politician should ask themselves would I send my children?  Would I send my neighbors children?  This is because war is a last resort to a clear an imminent threat (which Iraq was not).  So the Repubs that thought it was so necessary to get into this mess should be willing to go, and that's what Project Yellow Elephant is all about.

To any serviceman in this thread:  Thank you for your service to your country.  To say I don't support our armed forces is ridiculous.  I fully support them, and know they come from a variety of backgrounds.  Opposing the war when it started =/= Opposing the troops. I question the institutions and leadership of this country not because I don't love my country, it's because I do love my country and hold it to a higher standard.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: be10dwn on July 01, 2005, 06:45:44 AM
should dems be killed first in the next terrorist attack then?

LOL 180
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: be10dwn on July 01, 2005, 06:51:50 AM
Like I said in like my 2nd post on this thread.  Dems fight the same fights over and over again.  At this point, it makes no difference what the reasons for going to war are.  We are there now and we have to finish what we started.  As to the point that was made about letting the Iraqis sort this out for themselves, that is a very naive view of the subject.  Sure the Iraqis need to play a part in their own freedo, but they cannot do it on their own, and it is vital to our safety and security that we don't fail.  We MUST succeed, we don't have a choice.  And don't forget, if it weren't for the French, we would probably still be singing God save the Queen, so sometimes people need help to secure their freedom.  I truly believe that the vast majority of Iraqis want peace and security, but it is the minority that is making all the trouble. 
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: elemnopee on July 01, 2005, 07:03:24 AM
Like I said in like my 2nd post on this thread.  Dems fight the same fights over and over again.  At this point, it makes no difference what the reasons for going to war are.  We are there now and we have to finish what we started. 

Phanatic, Pres, and ASN can all testify I have always said that we have to finish what we started, preciseley why young Republicans that supported this war should enlist.  We continually point out the problems with the justifications because your side uses misleading rhetoric.  We are not there protecting America, my freedom was not threatened by Sadaam.

As to the point that was made about letting the Iraqis sort this out for themselves, that is a very naive view of the subject.  Sure the Iraqis need to play a part in their own freedo, but they cannot do it on their own, and it is vital to our safety and security that we don't fail.  We MUST succeed, we don't have a choice. 

Your right we don't have a choice, so you are calling it a quagmire too?  If they Iraqis can't sort it out for themeselves what makes you think they can deal with the divisive politcal reality of Democracy? 

And don't forget, if it weren't for the French, we would probably still be singing God save the Queen, so sometimes people need help to secure their freedom.  I truly believe that the vast majority of Iraqis want peace and security, but it is the minority that is making all the trouble. 

The difference is we asked the French to help us, Iraqis did not ask us to come.  Of course they are glad Sadaam is gone, and they want peace and security.  The problem is we have not brought peace or security. 

Don't simplify the problem there is no easy solution.  To think we need to just keep fighting the same way and blindly support the failed approach of this administration is naive.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: _BP_ on July 01, 2005, 07:05:55 AM
Like I said in like my 2nd post on this thread.  Dems fight the same fights over and over again.  At this point, it makes no difference what the reasons for going to war are.  We are there now and we have to finish what we started.  As to the point that was made about letting the Iraqis sort this out for themselves, that is a very naive view of the subject.  Sure the Iraqis need to play a part in their own freedo, but they cannot do it on their own, and it is vital to our safety and security that we don't fail.  We MUST succeed, we don't have a choice.  And don't forget, if it weren't for the French, we would probably still be singing God save the Queen, so sometimes people need help to secure their freedom.  I truly believe that the vast majority of Iraqis want peace and security, but it is the minority that is making all the trouble. 

To YOU it makes no difference.  It makes a huge difference to many people however, especially our enlisted men and women. 
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: hammer101 on July 01, 2005, 07:09:59 AM
What the hell happened to my thread?

First, Iraq has no WMD, no connections to Al Qaeada, and no active nuclear weapons program.  We are not in Iraq to protect against an imminent threat.  There were no terrorists in Iraq untill we go there (I'm not calling our soldiers terrorists)

Second, fighting in Iraq was not necassary then, but is crucial now.  I don't know if the American people have the resolve to fight the war.

My OP, was to point out that when deciding to go/support a war politician should ask themselves would I send my children?  Would I send my neighbors children?  This is because war is a last resort to a clear an imminent threat (which Iraq was not).  So the Repubs that thought it was so necessary to get into this mess should be willing to go, and that's what Project Yellow Elephant is all about.

To any serviceman in this thread:  Thank you for your service to your country.  To say I don't support our armed forces is ridiculous.  I fully support them, and know they come from a variety of backgrounds.  Opposing the war when it started =/= Opposing the troops. I question the institutions and leadership of this country not because I don't love my country, it's because I do love my country and hold it to a higher standard.

elemnopee--

While I disagree with you here (for reasons I and others have already explained and I won't regurgitate here), this is a very nice, well thought out post...since this thread degenerated into a shouting match, it's nice to see someone bring it back to the level of reasoned discussion.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: mxpocc on July 01, 2005, 07:11:16 AM
Quote
it's been 30+ years, but i highly doubt that you and your fellow service men are models for racial tolerance.
Quote

Well, at least you're keeping an open mind about it.  I didn't ever notice the guy saying anything about his race.  I just figured he was an American.  He could have a Mexican background for all you and I know.

Quote
and of course, when you're in the foxhole, you're not going to have time to be a bigot: that "black" man could save your life. all you're worried about is keeping your ass alive
Quote

Speaking from first hand experience, right?  I think it's more likely that you're speaking out of some other part of your anatomy.

Quote
it's a little more honorable to maintain tolerance in peace time
Quote

Really?  I'm just a regular ol' civilian myself.  I'm guessing you are too.  Seeing as how neither one of us served, I find it fascinating you're able to weight the value of one greater than the other.

These LSD boards rock.  They always provide me with my "you're not going to believe what some people believe" schtick for the day.



i don't need to be a serviceman to see first hand that military people are capable of being bigots and racists, and therefore be able to call "bull" when this guy tries to play the holier-than-thou act.

don't be scared of me because i have an opinion. you can, too, if you put your mind to it.

you do make a good argument, though--people who haven't served aren't fit to formulate opinions and judge the differences between aspects of civilian life and aspects of military life. it's a bit funny, but that's what our president does--and he has to lead these people

i guess having advisors and staff members with first hand knowledge isn't enough to understand a subject. if that was so true, our president wouldn't be fit to do the majority of his work
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: CajunDynamo on July 01, 2005, 07:32:30 AM
Quote
it's been 30+ years, but i highly doubt that you and your fellow service men are models for racial tolerance.
Quote

Well, at least you're keeping an open mind about it.  I didn't ever notice the guy saying anything about his race.  I just figured he was an American.  He could have a Mexican background for all you and I know.

Quote
and of course, when you're in the foxhole, you're not going to have time to be a bigot: that "black" man could save your life. all you're worried about is keeping your ass alive
Quote

Speaking from first hand experience, right?  I think it's more likely that you're speaking out of some other part of your anatomy.

Quote
it's a little more honorable to maintain tolerance in peace time
Quote

Really?  I'm just a regular ol' civilian myself.  I'm guessing you are too.  Seeing as how neither one of us served, I find it fascinating you're able to weight the value of one greater than the other.

These LSD boards rock.  They always provide me with my "you're not going to believe what some people believe" schtick for the day.



i don't need to be a serviceman to see first hand that military people are capable of being bigots and racists, and therefore be able to call "bull" when this guy tries to play the holier-than-thou act.

don't be scared of me because i have an opinion. you can, too, if you put your mind to it.

Look, the MustBe guy could be a total A-hole.  I have no idea.  Neither do you.  But all service people, like your father, ARE somewhat holier-than-thou.  How else could you describe someone who risk their lives to serve their country for very little pay?  Heck, use your own pappa as an example. Ditto for firefighters, cops, and teachers.  We may not like the people personally, but they're doing a job that you and I won't do.

What concerns me are not your opinions.  It's your rush to jump on MustBe withhout giving him the benefit of the doubt. 
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Oneof2 on July 01, 2005, 07:50:07 AM
What the hell happened to my thread?

First, Iraq has no WMD, no connections to Al Qaeada, and no active nuclear weapons program.  We are not in Iraq to protect against an imminent threat.  There were no terrorists in Iraq untill we go there (I'm not calling our soldiers terrorists)

Second, fighting in Iraq was not necassary then, but is crucial now.  I don't know if the American people have the resolve to fight the war.

My OP, was to point out that when deciding to go/support a war politician should ask themselves would I send my children?  Would I send my neighbors children?  This is because war is a last resort to a clear an imminent threat (which Iraq was not).  So the Repubs that thought it was so necessary to get into this mess should be willing to go, and that's what Project Yellow Elephant is all about.

To any serviceman in this thread:  Thank you for your service to your country.  To say I don't support our armed forces is ridiculous.  I fully support them, and know they come from a variety of backgrounds.  Opposing the war when it started =/= Opposing the troops. I question the institutions and leadership of this country not because I don't love my country, it's because I do love my country and hold it to a higher standard.

Elemnopee, you could be my hero!
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Hegel on July 01, 2005, 09:06:17 AM
We are there now and we have to finish what we started.  As to the point that was made about letting the Iraqis sort this out for themselves, that is a very naive view of the subject.  Sure the Iraqis need to play a part in their own freedo, but they cannot do it on their own, and it is vital to our safety and security that we don't fail.  We MUST succeed, we don't have a choice. 

This is scary.  Your choice for prez gets us in a huge, unsolvable mess, and yet you are unwilling to see it despite the unnecessary death of Americans and the completely false premises for going to war.  Don't we, as free people in a democracy, deserve accurate reasons for allowing our country to start a war?  That is truly naive.

Arabs will always be suspect of America's intentions regardless of how many schools and hospitals we build.  Have you ever heard of the Crusades?  Do you think that thousands of years of vilification will just vanish by dropping bombs on an Arab country?  Will all the Arabs say, "Yeah ... those Americans are just looking out for us.  Aren't they nice!"  Hah.

Reverse the whole thing.  Make the US the poor little Christian nation in a power vacuum and Iraq the super power.  Do you think the we would sit by and let the Iraquis "liberate" our country????  My guess is that you, me, and most of the Americans on this board would turn to tactics similar to those used by the current Iraqui resistance in order to push out the Iraqui forces.  Or would you just join the invading Iraqui forces as a meekish fellow looking to fill the all-mighty POWER VACUUM ... ooohhhh scary?  How can you expect the same from them?  That is truly naive.

By the way, Why MUST we succeed?  Why DON'T we have a choice?  Why can the Iraquis not do IT (whatever "IT" is) on their own?  Isn't that the newly adjusted reason for the war, since the whole weapons of mass destruction thing blew up ... well pardon the pun ... like a weapon of mass destruction in your faces?

Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: elemnopee on July 01, 2005, 09:16:50 AM
We are there now and we have to finish what we started.  As to the point that was made about letting the Iraqis sort this out for themselves, that is a very naive view of the subject.  Sure the Iraqis need to play a part in their own freedo, but they cannot do it on their own, and it is vital to our safety and security that we don't fail.  We MUST succeed, we don't have a choice. 

This is scary.  Your choice for prez gets us in a huge, unsolvable mess, and yet you are unwilling to see it despite the unnecessary death of Americans and the completely false premises for going to war.  Don't we, as free people in a democracy, deserve accurate reasons for allowing our country to start a war?  That is truly naive.

Arabs will always be suspect of America's intentions regardless of how many schools and hospitals we build.  Have you ever heard of the Crusades?  Do you think that thousands of years of vilification will just vanish by dropping bombs on an Arab country?  Will all the Arabs say, "Yeah ... those Americans are just looking out for us.  Aren't they nice!"  Hah.

Reverse the whole thing.  Make the US the poor little Christian nation in a power vacuum and Iraq the super power.  Do you think the we would sit by and let the Iraquis "liberate" our country????  My guess is that you, me, and most of the Americans on this board would turn to tactics similar to those used by the current Iraqui resistance in order to push out the Iraqui forces.  Or would you just join the invading Iraqui forces as a meekish fellow looking to fill the all-mighty POWER VACUUM ... ooohhhh scary?  How can you expect the same from them?  That is truly naive.

By the way, Why MUST we succeed?  Why DON'T we have a choice?  Why can the Iraquis not do IT (whatever "IT" is) on their own?  Isn't that the newly adjusted reason for the war, since the whole weapons of mass destruction thing blew up ... well pardon the pun ... like a weapon of mass destruction in your faces?



I like your post, although it's only the last paragraph I disagree with.  We have royally screwed up their country, I don't know if there is a bad-aid big enough to fix what we did, but we should still keep looking.

In addition, some of these posters have completely lost touch with reality, but what do you expect? its a prerequisite for supporting this President. 

The poster you quoted clearly did not realize the monumental contradiction of his comment, because that would require being in touch with reality.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: mxpocc on July 01, 2005, 01:36:54 PM
Quote
it's been 30+ years, but i highly doubt that you and your fellow service men are models for racial tolerance.
Quote

Well, at least you're keeping an open mind about it.  I didn't ever notice the guy saying anything about his race.  I just figured he was an American.  He could have a Mexican background for all you and I know.

Quote
and of course, when you're in the foxhole, you're not going to have time to be a bigot: that "black" man could save your life. all you're worried about is keeping your ass alive
Quote

Speaking from first hand experience, right?  I think it's more likely that you're speaking out of some other part of your anatomy.

Quote
it's a little more honorable to maintain tolerance in peace time
Quote

Really?  I'm just a regular ol' civilian myself.  I'm guessing you are too.  Seeing as how neither one of us served, I find it fascinating you're able to weight the value of one greater than the other.

These LSD boards rock.  They always provide me with my "you're not going to believe what some people believe" schtick for the day.



i don't need to be a serviceman to see first hand that military people are capable of being bigots and racists, and therefore be able to call "bull" when this guy tries to play the holier-than-thou act.

don't be scared of me because i have an opinion. you can, too, if you put your mind to it.

Look, the MustBe guy could be a total A-hole.  I have no idea.  Neither do you.  But all service people, like your father, ARE somewhat holier-than-thou.  How else could you describe someone who risk their lives to serve their country for very little pay?  Heck, use your own pappa as an example. Ditto for firefighters, cops, and teachers.  We may not like the people personally, but they're doing a job that you and I won't do.

What concerns me are not your opinions.  It's your rush to jump on MustBe withhout giving him the benefit of the doubt. 

i never intended to suggest that he, himself, was a racist or a bigot--it just seemed he wanted to suggest that military people are farther from being racist than the general public, and are at the forefront of morality within society, and that's something i don't agree with.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: BoscoBreaux on July 01, 2005, 02:03:13 PM
In general (and I'm not singling out people here, I should say) I think the liberal attitude toward servicemen and women is interesting...on the one hand, the look down their noses at them (hence the comment about poor people...and while foose probably didn't mean it the way I read it, it is common liberal thinking that most troops are from lower middle class backgrounds) and yet pretend to honor and revere them. You don't exalt someone you believe is beneath you. Liberals can't have it both ways.

You make a classic Right-Wing assumption regarding the poor–that it implies they are “lowly” by choice or defect–which is no way applies here. In short, you use Republican assumptions, apply similar false premises to the opinion of  liberals, and then criticize them for it. I detected no derision in the term “poor” in the post to which you referenced, whereas your assumptions are laden with them.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: be10dwn on July 01, 2005, 02:05:12 PM
BTW he's not "my" president, he is OUR president.  I didn't vote for him much like I assume you didn't either.  I am a proud libertarian but that doesn't matter to you suposedly open minded people.  Anyone who doesn't agree with you 100% is a cook nutjob religious fanatic.  ALL I said was we are there now and yes, we DO have to succeed.  If we don't, what do you think this world will be like?  You may be able to say I told you so then, but let's see at what cost.  You are supposed to be the "enlightened" ones, yet liberals are more closed minded than anyone I've ever known.  At least I'm willing to see both sides of the argument and say yes, we shouldn't have gone to war,but we're there now, let's get this thing done and done correctly.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: BoscoBreaux on July 01, 2005, 02:12:54 PM
The problem with the liberals is that you keep trying to fight the same windmill over and over again.  At this point it doesn't matter why we went to Iraq, what matters is getting the damn job done.  We have to be successful, we have no choice.  Does nobody on the liberal side understand this?  All I ever hear is quagmire this and quagmire that, but no solutions are ever given to the problem.  If you think something is wrong, great, come up with a solution because otherwise you just sound like a whiny female dog.

Your assumption may be true if such a war is capable of being won. We learned in Vietnam that is not so--you kill one, you create 3 more (a statement used by generals today, but coined by Vietnam era generals.) The Iraq war will continue until we leave, and not a day sooner.

But, Iraq is much worse than Vietnam.  In that instance, we did not CREATE communists; in Iraq, we are creating terrorists by our very presence. That is the point that "liberals" are trying to make. When we leave, the terroists leave--they have no targets. The fact that the vast majority of the "insurgents" are from Saudi Arabia and Syria confirms this--they will hit the road when we leave. While we are there, the new Iraqi regime will be seen as nothing more than extension of the US, and will be a target as well.  There is your solution.

Now, you may argue that when we kill all the terroists there will be peace. You cannot defeat a tactic; in fact, when you do so, you incite those to use the tactic. It's a no-brainer for most persons.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: be10dwn on July 01, 2005, 02:25:59 PM
The problem with the liberals is that you keep trying to fight the same windmill over and over again.  At this point it doesn't matter why we went to Iraq, what matters is getting the damn job done.  We have to be successful, we have no choice.  Does nobody on the liberal side understand this?  All I ever hear is quagmire this and quagmire that, but no solutions are ever given to the problem.  If you think something is wrong, great, come up with a solution because otherwise you just sound like a whiny female dog.

Your assumption may be true if such a war is capable of being won. We learned in Vietnam that is not so--you kill one, you create 3 more (a statement used by generals today, but coined by Vietnam era generals.) The Iraq war will continue until we leave, and not a day sooner.

But, Iraq is much worse than Vietnam.  In that instance, we did not CREATE communists; in Iraq, we are creating terrorists by our very presence. That is the point that "liberals" are trying to make. When we leave, the terroists leave--they have no targets. The fact that the vast majority of the "insurgents" are from Saudi Arabia and Syria confirms this--they will hit the road when we leave. While we are there, the new Iraqi regime will be seen as nothing more than extension of the US, and will be a target as well.  There is your solution.

Now, you may argue that when we kill all the terroists there will be peace. You cannot defeat a tactic; in fact, when you do so, you incite those to use the tactic. It's a no-brainer for most persons.

So you think if we would leave Iraq tomorow, then those insurgents fighting now will say, Oh thank Allah, now I can go home?  Do you honestly think that will happen?  I don't want us to be there either, but we can't just leave and let it become even more of a haven for terrorists.  I think we need to stay just long enough to get the Iraq army up and running and then get the hell out of there.  That may take a year or ten, who knows, but I think that's the point we get out of there.  When they can defend themselves.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: BoscoBreaux on July 01, 2005, 02:32:49 PM
Now, this isn’t a position I necssarily agree with, but to assume there are no valid reasons for the “liberal” position is dishonest.

Ultimately, staying in Iraq makes sense if 1) it serves a desirable purpose and 2) the purpose can be attained. Every week, the reasons for going into Iraq changes, and every week the justifications for staying changes. Generally, the reasons (articulated) by the President center on assuring “democracy” in Iraq and to stop terrorism.

Obviously, for all our efforts, the number of terrorists in Iraq has increased. So mission failure–and it will only get worse as time goes on. So, by going there to fight terrorism, we are creating terrorists. It’s a cycle, never-ending.
So, we should hold onto the notion of democracy in Iraq. Now, there is a laugh! Do we REALLY want Iraqis to vote in elections? Last I heard, Saddam Hussein would STILL win an election if he was allowed on the ballot. Further, the most popular replacements for him are fundamentalist Taliban-like leaders.

So, even the very purposes for which we are there will lead to an undesirable outcome. This alone makes fighting the war silly. The fact that it can’t be won only furthers this conclusion.

On top of all this, we need to consider whether the loss of life is worth it.

On top of that, we need to consider whether the hundreds of billions of dollars could be better spent (maybe in Afghanistan, or in actually deploying equipment to screen containers entering the US).

Now, ideology and theory is a great thing, but at a point, practical considerations have to be a factor. Oddly enough, Conservative though is purely theoretical in this context, and the “liberal” position is purely practical.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: BoscoBreaux on July 01, 2005, 02:50:09 PM

So you think if we would leave Iraq tomorow, then those insurgents fighting now will say, Oh thank Allah, now I can go home?  Do you honestly think that will happen?  I don't want us to be there either, but we can't just leave and let it become even more of a haven for terrorists.  I think we need to stay just long enough to get the Iraq army up and running and then get the hell out of there.  That may take a year or ten, who knows, but I think that's the point we get out of there.  When they can defend themselves.

You can’t kill an American if an American is in your presence. That is why the “terrorists” have come to Iraq. If they were just interested in instilling a fundamentalist regime in the Middle East, they would make Saudi Arabia their target. (In fact, that is why many suggest the real “winners” in this whole Iraq affair are the Saudis. The Saudis LOVE the fact that all of their terrorists–those most critical of the current monarchy–have left. Why do you think Saudi Arabia opened its borders to Iraq, but FOR THOSE ONLY GOING FROM SAUDI ARABIA TO IRAQ???) Ask yourself why did Osama Bin Laden change his mind about the US? (Remember, he praised Allah for the US's help in its efforts against the USSR. IN fact, Osama prayed for Allah to bless the US every day, until not that long ago. Why did he change--THE US DIDN'T LEAVE AFTER THE GULF WAR!
No presence in the Middle East, no 9/11.

Who will defend whom? You misdefine democracy.

 A regime in a democratic society represents everyone, in theory. But even in the United States, does the Bush Admin. represent all Americans? Heck, half of the country absolutely loathes Bush. Moreover, the rest of the world does. So, roughly half of the country voted for him (and half of those who did held their nose when doing so). Let’s not misrepresent what democracy means–it just means that the regime is subject to the people, but only once every 2 4 and 6 years–not in every decision it makes.  And, majority agreement is not necessary.

What’s the point? Well, a relatively powerful minority (Fundamentalist Muslims) can take control (de facto) of a government even though they aren’t supported by the vast majority of citizens. Right now, Osama Bin Laden would beat George Bush in an election in Iraq. Now, that is scary, but it is instructive.

Iraq will NEVER yield a leader who will be acceptable to the US from a security perspective. Take a look over at Iran–elections there yielded a terrorist just this week! The ONLY places in the Middle East with significant numbers of muslims that doesn’t have a “terrorist” regime are not even democracies! That is why Saddam Hussein, for all of his evilness, was a “safer bet” than the current situation, or its future. After all, that is the reason why we supported him financially for so long–anything is better than a fundamentalist regime (like that in Iran).

So, we will wait until the Iraqi’s are able to defend themselves? Well, what happens when a fundamentalist leader takes over (which will happen eventually)? Those same soldiers will defend that regime, and when the US later invades to “free” the people again, we will call them “terrorists.”  It is a vicious, and predictable, cycle.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: be10dwn on July 01, 2005, 03:37:18 PM
Well, in the immortal words Ron Burgundy, let's agree to disagree  ;) It's Friday and time to drink some beer. Cheers
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: EASTWEST on July 01, 2005, 04:10:41 PM
Those of us on this board are supposedly the cream of the intellectual crop, and yet after reading the board i get the sense that many of us are so stuck in our own world views that we cant accept another rational theory. For instance, many believe the war was never purely motivated as an attack on terrorism. It was greatly grounded in a school of thought based on the belief that some form of democratic rule in the arab world will help to alleviate the region's violent problems and stimulate some form of populist movement in the region. For nearly five decades we have neglected to involve ourselves in the ailing region because it is not an easy fix. Maybe involving ourselves there now will help to diffuse an increasingly scary situation and save more lives in the long run. Many political theorists have written extensively on the subject...most recently it has been Wolfowit. Also, its ridiculous for me to see people claiming the side of servicemen on both sides. They are people with diverse opinions just like us. Bush may have lied, misled, or even been a war mongerer; but at least lets give him credit for taking a stand for what he believes to be correct and genuinely tries to affect change.

Finally, do not pigeonhole me as someone blinded by the right like some others on the board have been treated. I did not believe we should have gone to war there, nor do i now. There are many merits to the other side, and if your going to argue against them educate yourself. We have enough Michael moore's and people blinded by their own ideologies. Why is the left always so ready to get involved in places(Africa for instance), and yet when the U.S. gets involved they bail from their humanity for all views.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: be10dwn on July 01, 2005, 04:15:59 PM
Those of us on this board are supposedly the cream of the intellectual crop, and yet after reading the board i get the sense that many of us are so stuck in our own world views that we cant accept another rational theory. For instance, many believe the war was never purely motivated as an attack on terrorism. It was greatly grounded in a school of thought based on the belief that some form of democratic rule in the arab world will help to alleviate the region's violent problems and stimulate some form of populist movement in the region. For nearly five decades we have neglected to involve ourselves in the ailing region because it is not an easy fix. Maybe involving ourselves there now will help to diffuse an increasingly scary situation and save more lives in the long run. Many political theorists have written extensively on the subject...most recently it has been Wolfowit. Also, its ridiculous for me to see people claiming the side of servicemen on both sides. They are people with diverse opinions just like us. Bush may have lied, misled, or even been a war mongerer; but at least lets give him credit for taking a stand for what he believes to be correct and genuinely tries to affect change.

Finally, do not pigeonhole me as someone blinded by the right like some others on the board have been treated. I did not believe we should have gone to war there, nor do i now. There are many merits to the other side, and if your going to argue against them educate yourself. We have enough Michael moore's and people blinded by their own ideologies. Why is the left always so ready to get involved in places(Africa for instance), and yet when the U.S. gets involved they bail from their humanity for all views.
180 Well said, I have been trying to form these words for the past two days, but just couldn't! LOL
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: BoscoBreaux on July 01, 2005, 06:15:19 PM
Many political theorists have written extensively on the subject...most recently it has been Wolfowit. Also, its ridiculous for me to see people claiming the side of servicemen on both sides. They are people with diverse opinions just like us. Bush may have lied, misled, or even been a war mongerer; but at least lets give him credit for taking a stand for what he believes to be correct and genuinely tries to affect change.

Finally, do not pigeonhole me as someone blinded by the right like some others on the board have been treated. I did not believe we should have gone to war there, nor do i now. There are many merits to the other side, and if your going to argue against them educate yourself. We have enough Michael moore's and people blinded by their own ideologies. Why is the left always so ready to get involved in places(Africa for instance), and yet when the U.S. gets involved they bail from their humanity for all views.

Might you be referring to Paul Wolfowitz, Dept. Sec. of Defense? I wouldn't call him a political theorist, but one of his ideas would qualify as theory. Wolfowitz is the architect of NeoConservativism, and has always been particularly Hawkish. Back during the first Bush Administration, Wolfowitz came up with this theory on how to settle the problems we had in Iraq and the Middle East. His opinion was to basically go to war, defeat the regimes there, and then all of the citizens, happy with our efforts, will greet us "with flowers and open arms." Of course, we now know this is false. But you want to know something? Even George HW Bush and his cabinent though his theory was nuts. Exit Senior Bush, 8 years of Clinton, and Wolfowitz and Rice. Powell, a reasonable man, though they were nuts back in 1991, and still thinks they are nuts. Exit Powell, enter Rice. See a trend?

You stated an opinion: Bush deserves "credit for taking a stand for what he believes to be correct and genuinely tries to affect change. " Is this true? Does he REALLY believe it, or are this the argument he uses to justify a selfish agenda?  Everyone has opinions, and your opinion is based on nothing more than the application of facts to your worldview. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them an extremist. (Although I'd agree that most persons--maybe 90% of Americans--are moderates, not even liberal or conservative, much less Left-Wing or Right-wing)

And I was struck by your last comment. Certainly, there is hypocrisy on both ends of the spectrum. (Why does the Right want to do business with China, but you can't even visit Cuba? Why is it we can spend hundreds of billiions freeing the poor, starving women and children in Iraq, but want to cut medicaid funding?)
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Hegel on July 02, 2005, 09:44:00 AM
BTW he's not "my" president, he is OUR president.  I didn't vote for him much like I assume you didn't either.  I am a proud libertarian but that doesn't matter to you suposedly open minded people.  Anyone who doesn't agree with you 100% is a cook nutjob religious fanatic.  ALL I said was we are there now and yes, we DO have to succeed.  If we don't, what do you think this world will be like?  You may be able to say I told you so then, but let's see at what cost.  You are supposed to be the "enlightened" ones, yet liberals are more closed minded than anyone I've ever known.  At least I'm willing to see both sides of the argument and say yes, we shouldn't have gone to war,but we're there now, let's get this thing done and done correctly.

Well, you sound like a Republican, as do many Libertarians.  As a libertarian, why do you espouse going into Iraq in the first place?  Wouldn't a libertarian rather the Iraqui people figure it out for themselves, instead of their archenemy, the USA, making the decisions for them?

Your use of words like "HAVE TO" and "MUST" does not indicate looking at both sides of the issue.  We've been there for three years now.  We've gotten rid of Hussein.  We've installed a parliament and trained a few troops.  Now, it's up to the Iraqui's, as it was before Bush decided to "save the day".  Freedom comes at a price.  Let them pay the price, if they truly want it.  Why should we pay the price for them?

Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: elemnopee on July 02, 2005, 09:46:11 AM
I love how Wolfowitz is cited as a "political theorist," try "political hack"
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: elemnopee on July 02, 2005, 09:50:07 AM
We have not been ignoring the middle east for the last 50 years, we have helped prop up several of the dictatorships there, Sadaam included.

I'll reference a real theorist Michael Mandelbaum, he argues no two "true democracies" have ever attacked on another.  Following his line of thinking democracy is vital to global security.

What we have done in Iraq is not export democracy, and I disagree with this adminstrations approach.  I also disagree with continuing to align ourselves with terrible dictatorship regimes while attempting to export democracy.

I'm not rehashing any Michael Moore, or Hollywood elitism, but there are serious flaws with our past foriegn policy and it appears we are making them again. 
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: BoscoBreaux on July 02, 2005, 10:36:30 AM
We have not been ignoring the middle east for the last 50 years, we have helped prop up several of the dictatorships there, Sadaam included.

I'll reference a real theorist Michael Mandelbaum, he argues no two "true democracies" have ever attacked on another.  Following his line of thinking democracy is vital to global security.

What we have done in Iraq is not export democracy, and I disagree with this adminstrations approach.  I also disagree with continuing to align ourselves with terrible dictatorship regimes while attempting to export democracy.

I'm not rehashing any Michael Moore, or Hollywood elitism, but there are serious flaws with our past foriegn policy and it appears we are making them again. 

I love references to Michael Moore. Most persons who reference him don't consider that he is a gun-totiing blue collar midwesterner whose opinions aren't nearly as extreme as his movies and books suggest. He is an ENTERTAINER, not a political theorist, so his opinion should be weighed as such. But I digress...

Often times, one is called a "Liberal" whenever one does nothing more than pointing out the less-than-respectable tactics our Government uses to achieve its ends. Why? Because if you equate "liberal" to "anti-american," then you effectively demonize them. That is the nature of rhetoric. (In fact, in reality, maybe 5% of Americans are truely "Liberals," the rest are Moderates who SOMETIMES agree with the liberal position.

Did we financially support Saddam Hussein during the 1980s? Absolutely. Did we support Noreiga, who in fact, we put on the CIA's payroll? Yep. Which of the two are responsible for more deaths of Americans? Noriega. Do we intmately do business with the Saudi Royal Family? Sure. Are Saudi women allowed to vote or drive a car? Are those who disagree with the Saudi Government beheaded in public squares? Is there freedom of the press in any country of the Middle East?

I think it is not "Liberal" or Conservative to point this out and to use this knowledge in considering whether such policies are wise.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: kerouacbum on July 02, 2005, 09:17:11 PM
Quote
I'll reference a real theorist Michael Mandelbaum, he argues no two "true democracies" have ever attacked on another.  Following his line of thinking democracy is vital to global security.

Yes, the democratic peace theory. To paraphrase the wonderfully succinct comment on that from one of my liberal foreign policy profs: "It may be true, but you can't prove something by showing that it didn't happen." We could still go to war with another democracy (er, republic) at some point, you never know. I do think we'd have a tough time justifying it though, unless they were doing a massive power grab. The thing with democracies is they have open elections and the people wouldn't stand for a president or PM who would do something like that. And if the head of state ignored the people, it would no longer be a democracy.

Quote
If they were just interested in instilling a fundamentalist regime in the Middle East, they would make Saudi Arabia their target. (In fact, that is why many suggest the real “winners” in this whole Iraq affair are the Saudis. The Saudis LOVE the fact that all of their terrorists–those most critical of the current monarchy–have left.

I assume you're referring to the Wahabbis in Saudi Arabia. They and the Muslim Brotherhood are using Saudi Arabia as a fertile training group for up and coming terrorists, but they keep getting money from the Saudi oil coffers, so they're not going to attack just yet. They're going to let the House of Saudi go bankrupt first or for someone within the Al Saud family to grow a backbone and crack down on the fundamentalist clerics and madrassahs. But at the same time, you just said that these terrorists have left. Don't worry, still plenty of them in the homeland too.

Quote
No presence in the Middle East, no 9/11.

Yes, this is one of bin Laden's major complaints, but don't forget that the Saudis asked us to be there. Bin Laden was pissed that he and his battle-hardened Arab and African mujahideen who had just driven the mighty Red Army from Afghanistan (an unthinkable victory to most people at the time) weren't asked to defend the Holy Land. But don't think that's the only reason for their hatred of us. Not to be a psychologist here, but they hate that their own countries are poor and don't educate their people or providethe basic necessitiies of life. They blame it on the U.S. because it's an easy target these days, but the Arab countries need to clean up their own backyard or else all the American help in the world won't be enough. As someone said earlier, the Iraqis have to start fighting this war for themselves. They don't mind seeing American soldiers dying, but they need to understand that the terrorists aren't just after our guys. They want to put in a 7th century Islamic society replete with stonings, women being cloistered in their homes, and death to all who don't believe or cnovert to Islam.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Hegel on July 04, 2005, 04:02:55 PM
Quote
I'll reference a real theorist Michael Mandelbaum, he argues no two "true democracies" have ever attacked on another.  Following his line of thinking democracy is vital to global security.

Yes, the democratic peace theory. To paraphrase the wonderfully succinct comment on that from one of my liberal foreign policy profs: "It may be true, but you can't prove something by showing that it didn't happen." We could still go to war with another democracy (er, republic) at some point, you never know.

Plus, aren't most nations not democracies?  Most of them are an oligarchy or monarchy.  Or what I would term as pseudo-democracies--a powerless parliament with a ruling aristocracy based on lineage or control of the military.

Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: kerouacbum on July 04, 2005, 06:00:20 PM
Yeah, I don't think those count. Sort of like many of the Latin American countries in the 1980a and early 1990s and some even today.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: ->Soon on October 17, 2007, 06:31:52 AM
be alot fewer wars then...
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Miss P on October 19, 2007, 05:35:04 AM
Probably.  I doubt Dems are capable of doing any meaningful fighting, and most violate the gay ban. 

I love it when you use your bigot voice.  It's so hot.
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: Hannibal on October 19, 2007, 05:52:44 AM
Should Republicans be drafted first?  Only if Democrats pay double in taxes.

I would gladly claim responsibility for the conservative side of the government if it meant I could withdraw from its liberal burdens entirely. 
Title: Re: Should Republicans be drafted first?
Post by: ->Soon on October 19, 2007, 06:45:00 AM
actually, repubs should also be required to pay the "war tax" thats floating around.


and im sure dems wouldn't mind paying double taxes if repubs get half benefits!