Law School Discussion

Deciding Where to Go => Choosing the Right Law School => Topic started by: Phanatic on May 14, 2005, 04:04:08 PM

Title: 1
Post by: Phanatic on May 14, 2005, 04:04:08 PM
1
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: dbgirl on May 14, 2005, 04:08:11 PM
Wow, I make more than that now and I'm a journalist!
I didn't think anyone made less than I do.

I'm not planning to make a ton of $$$, I will start as a prosecutor for $55-60K, but $27K? I'd be seriously crying.
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: michigantroll on May 14, 2005, 04:09:45 PM
he was lucky to find a job

hth
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: YankyKitten on May 14, 2005, 04:18:09 PM
Thanks for the info Phanatic!

dbgirl... where do you live that starting prosecutors make that much?  I personally know two prosecutors that have been in the business for years, and that is what they make.  One works in southeastern PA and the other works in south Jersey.
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: ccorsi on May 14, 2005, 04:58:26 PM
OMG.  27 K?

I made more than that one SUMMER waiting tables and bartending.

I make triple that now and I just have a BBA.

That has got to be some anomoly that I refuse to consider could happen to me.

C2
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: els2007 on May 14, 2005, 05:09:25 PM
Wow you are all sorely confused.  Widener is a tier 4 school.  

If you're not in the top 5% there's absolutely no guarantee you'll make more than 20-40K (if you get a job). MOST Widener grads don't GET jobs (ie actual legal jobs) by graduation.  Check US News recent rankings.  Only 43% of Widener grads even had employment at graduation. And I most likely the ones who did get jobs were probably doing temp work or legal aid..etc.

Most large philadelphia firms don't even interview the very top students at Widener and so even if you ARE at the top top of the class your career options and future potential are severaly limited.  

If you're attending a Tier 2-3-4 School you should probably reconsider your investment...

Also.. prosecutor's start at around $40K..
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: YankyKitten on May 14, 2005, 05:20:03 PM
Do you know that the last National Rookie Lawyer of the Year was a Widener grad?

Do you know that Widener is extremely competive with the "top" schools, and have taken two recent moot court competitions?

The school you go to may get you an interview, that is for sure; however, it is the graduate themselves that get the job.
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: ccorsi on May 14, 2005, 05:20:43 PM
Wow you are all sorely confused.  Widener is a tier 4 school.  

If you're not in the top 5% there's absolutely no guarantee you'll make more than 20-40K (if you get a job). MOST Widener grads don't GET jobs (ie actual legal jobs) by graduation.  Check US News recent rankings.  Only 43% of Widener grads even had employment at graduation. And I most likely the ones who did get jobs were probably doing temp work or legal aid..etc.

Most large philadelphia firms don't even interview the very top students at Widener and so even if you ARE at the top top of the class your career options and future potential are severaly limited.  

If you're attending a Tier 2-3-4 School you should probably reconsider your investment...

Also.. prosecutor's start at around $40K..

Dude, get a grip.  No one said Widener was all that, but secretaries make more than 27k.

And as far as saying to reconsider your investment - almost all T2s show starting average private sector salaries in the $80+k - some even in the 100K range such as Temple, Rutgers-Newark, etc.

C2
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: YankyKitten on May 14, 2005, 05:28:17 PM
don't take the flame bait you guys.  I didn't start this thread so people could bash Widener.  I apologize if it takes a bad direction.  I am not going there and have no opinion on the school, just thought this information could be useful for somebody.

Where are you going?
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: YankyKitten on May 14, 2005, 05:33:34 PM
Nice!  Good luck.
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: DodgerLaw on May 14, 2005, 05:41:02 PM
don't take the flame bait you guys.  I didn't start this thread so people could bash Widener.  I apologize if it takes a bad direction.  I am not going there and have no opinion on the school, just thought this information could be useful for somebody.

ditto that!

els2007 belongs on a different board.  ;)
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: dbgirl on May 14, 2005, 06:22:37 PM
Regarding prosecutor salaries, I live in the Bay Area CA, so the cost of living is very high ...

Still, I can live with starting at $55-60k and working up to more. (although my hefty loan debt does concern me.)
My job as a journalist connects me to a lot of people at the DAs office. I kept hearing horror stories about how low the pay is, so I finally asked someone in the know.
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: YankyKitten on May 14, 2005, 07:22:51 PM
Regarding prosecutor salaries, I live in the Bay Area CA, so the cost of living is very high ...

Still, I can live with starting at $55-60k and working up to more. (although my hefty loan debt does concern me.)
My job as a journalist connects me to a lot of people at the DAs office. I kept hearing horror stories about how low the pay is, so I finally asked someone in the know.

Cool... and you should know then... I have heard before that the cost of living is very high there.

Good luck to you dbgirl.  :)
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: hilljack on May 14, 2005, 07:55:06 PM

If you're attending a Tier 2-3-4 School you should probably reconsider your investment...


Screw that, if you don't get into Yale or Harvard, you are just stupid to go at all.  Maybe Stanford, but that is as far as I go.  If not, take your poli sci degree to Chili's and see if they are hiring.
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: BoscoBreaux on May 15, 2005, 01:34:13 AM
For whatever its worth-

I was talking with a friend the other day who just graduated from Widener DE (probably not at the top in ranking) and he took a job with a small firm for 27k/yr!  I was definitly taken back by this, but it really exemplifies the fact that competition for good jobs is fierce.  I must say that I am not passing judgement on the school, general job market, or anything else.  I just simply laid out the facts as I heard them from the source.  You all can make your own determinations.

Phanatic.
What is missing is the following information:  where was the job? If you made $27K in Northern Pensylvania, that would translate to working in LA and making $80k after you consider housing prices. (Know someone making $30k whose house, if in LA, couldn't be touched for under $1.5 million.) Graduating from a 4th Tier school and making the equivalent of $80K? Not bad.
Would you take $27K if you had a 50/50 chance of making partner? Would you take a job clerking at the Supreme Court for $42k? Who knows what he expects to get out of it.
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: sarmstrong806 on May 15, 2005, 01:44:58 AM
Good comment Bosco.

Also you guys aren't stopping to think that there are people in the world that don't mind making 27k a year.

A close friend of mine is a 2L at U Texas. He is a huge hippy and doesn't care about money. He will probably work for a firm where they wear shorts and sandals and take 2 hour lunch breaks, and maybye be making as much as this Widener guy. Just because this guy isn't pulling in big bucks doesn't automatically mean thats all that was avaible to him.

EDIT: Grammar 
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: dbgirl on May 15, 2005, 01:50:37 AM
I'm not going into law for the money ...but unless you get a completely free legal education, live in Oklahoma and have no children, I just don't see earning $27k as a choice anyone would make.
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: mrsdclare on May 15, 2005, 02:23:50 AM
i make more than that as a server.... personally though I am not worried, I am more concerned with my quality of life.  I too want to be a prosecutor. 
Title: Dont tale 27k for granted
Post by: Al on May 15, 2005, 09:42:42 AM
You would be surprised how many people take low paying jobs, even from top schools. For many it is a combination of quality of life and building a career. After all, residents in medschool immediately after graduation make similar low salaries.

I know people at top 10 schools who take these types of jobs, because they want to learn the ropes with a litigator who is willing to teach them and accept mistakes as they learn, rather than some partner breathing down their neck. In the end their true goal is putting up their own shingle, doing plaintiffs work and hopefully hitting that big case. In the end, no disrespect intended, but that is the best a widener grad can hope for.

Others take low paying government jobs with local courts, or municipalities because they have political ambitions

Others still go public service with hopes of being involved more high up with larger organizations in DC or locally.

Its all a matter of sacrifice now for an out of class room education that will pay off later.

I say good for him that he even has a job, and then learn what you can and go and put up your own shingle.

Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: HippieLawChick on May 15, 2005, 11:38:09 AM
Just like there are many different types of law schools, there are many different types of people who attend law school with different goals, skills and ambitions.  While it may be true that some don't make the big bucks (I know an attorney who made $23K upon graduation from Cooley and another from Marquette who is working at a frame shop and another from Marquette who got canned from her first two jobs and is now schlepping books for West instead of practicing), there are other more determined people who are able to present themselves fantastically at an interview (no matter what their grades, "tier" school, etc who make a very good living.

Yes, this field is very competitive, but life is also what you make it. 
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: RufusTheStuntBum on May 15, 2005, 11:59:44 PM

What is missing is the following information:  where was the job? If you made $27K in Northern Pensylvania, that would translate to working in LA and making $80k after you consider housing prices. (Know someone making $30k whose house, if in LA, couldn't be touched for under $1.5 million.) Graduating from a 4th Tier school and making the equivalent of $80K? Not bad.
Would you take $27K if you had a 50/50 chance of making partner? Would you take a job clerking at the Supreme Court for $42k? Who knows what he expects to get out of it.

FYI:  Not all of LA is expensive.  Use a better example if you want to claim lving somewhere is cheap.  If you go 15-20 miles inland you can buy a nice house for $250k.

$27k - taxes is something like $22k.  If you have $100k in debt you will owe upwards of $1k/month, leaving you with $10k/year to live on.  Have fun.  If someone is considering going to a school where they will make less than $60k coming out I would seriously advise them to do some cost/benefit analysis.  If you plan to do PI then you will probably get LRAP and can make less.  Getting PI jobs requires a highly ranked school so someone doing PI would probably have the option of making six figures anyway. 
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: dbgirl on May 16, 2005, 12:07:39 AM
I see the debt as the biggest concern here.
I wouldn't care so much what I make if it weren't for the fact that I will borrow $100-150k to get there.

While I am going to law school with a specific goal in mind, I am fairly certain I could get a relatively high-paying if I HAD to. I expect to be making a moderate salary by choice, not because I will not be able to get a firm job.
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: hilljack on May 16, 2005, 12:12:51 AM

What is missing is the following information:  where was the job? If you made $27K in Northern Pensylvania, that would translate to working in LA and making $80k after you consider housing prices. (Know someone making $30k whose house, if in LA, couldn't be touched for under $1.5 million.) Graduating from a 4th Tier school and making the equivalent of $80K? Not bad.
Would you take $27K if you had a 50/50 chance of making partner? Would you take a job clerking at the Supreme Court for $42k? Who knows what he expects to get out of it.

FYI:  Not all of LA is expensive.  Use a better example if you want to claim lving somewhere is cheap.  If you go 15-20 miles inland you can buy a nice house for $250k.

$27k - taxes is something like $22k.  If you have $100k in debt you will owe upwards of $1k/month, leaving you with $10k/year to live on.  Have fun.  If someone is considering going to a school where they will make less than $60k coming out I would seriously advise them to do some cost/benefit analysis.  If you plan to do PI then you will probably get LRAP and can make less.  Getting PI jobs requires a highly ranked school so someone doing PI would probably have the option of making six figures anyway. 

First, I don't know about your tax figures, they seem a little high.  Also, if you make 22 after tax, I doubt you will have to pay over half of it back in loan repayment each year.
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: trust on May 16, 2005, 12:17:38 AM
i hope people aren't shocked by this.  thousands of people graduate every year with a JD, and many of them will never get a legal job.  the market is competitive.  biglaw is a lofty goal that few law students will ever get. 

i think the 4th tier schools need to be put in perspective.  the northeast is saturated with plenty of prestigious law schools.  why would a law firm hire a suffolk grad when there is Harvard, BU, and BC around the corner?  similarly, why would a firm hire a widener or temple grad when Penn is right there in Philadelphia?  in the midwest, it is a different story.  take UALR - very few grads from prestigious law schools want to work in little rock or arkansas.  true, there isn't really biglaw in arkansas, but there are plenty of government jobs that pay $37k a year +.  a resident of AR that wants to work in AR is making a smart move by paying in-state tuition.

i know i went off topic, but the key here is debt.  if you were not born into money, then minimize your debt.  most law schools exist for the sole purpose of raking in money.
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: BoscoBreaux on May 16, 2005, 01:36:02 AM

What is missing is the following information:  where was the job? If you made $27K in Northern Pensylvania, that would translate to working in LA and making $80k after you consider housing prices. (Know someone making $30k whose house, if in LA, couldn't be touched for under $1.5 million.) Graduating from a 4th Tier school and making the equivalent of $80K? Not bad.
Would you take $27K if you had a 50/50 chance of making partner? Would you take a job clerking at the Supreme Court for $42k? Who knows what he expects to get out of it.

FYI:  Not all of LA is expensive.  Use a better example if you want to claim lving somewhere is cheap.  If you go 15-20 miles inland you can buy a nice house for $250k.

$27k - taxes is something like $22k.  If you have $100k in debt you will owe upwards of $1k/month, leaving you with $10k/year to live on.  Have fun.  If someone is considering going to a school where they will make less than $60k coming out I would seriously advise them to do some cost/benefit analysis.  If you plan to do PI then you will probably get LRAP and can make less.  Getting PI jobs requires a highly ranked school so someone doing PI would probably have the option of making six figures anyway. 

Actually, the example was perfect.  If you make $80K in LA, you will have as much money left over at the end of the month as someone who makes $27K, but lives in Lancaster PA, Clarksburg WV, etc.  If you make $27K and they are taking $22K in taxes, you should find another tax preparer/accountant.  Loans are a constant, and thus aren't of relevance to the calculation.

 But some clarification is in order: I meant Los Angeles, California, not whichever Los Angeles of which you speak.

If you can find me a house in a decent neighborhood for under $300K let me know, I'll buy it (note: median homes are not exactly homes people who go to law school aspire to usually, and even these are borderline at best in LA). Then again, I'll certainly be outbid by the HUNDREDS of other persons who would put down an offer within hours. Even homes in  Riverside/San Bern, a cozy 2 hour commute during rush hour, sell for considerably more.  Of course, not ALL homes in LA are expensive--plenty of homes become available in South Central relatively cheap given the attrition rate, so to speak (gunshots, crack deals gone bad, etc.).

But for those who get psyched by BigLaw in CA, here is reality (not nearly as bad as Manhattan, but still pretty brutal):
    
Median Price   

Calif.
$471,620    

Los Angeles   
$473,550    

Orange County   
$663,600    

Riverside/S. Bern.   
$342,120    

Sacramento   
$351,700    

San Diego   
$580,860    
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: RufusTheStuntBum on May 16, 2005, 02:27:44 AM

Actually, the example was perfect.  If you make $80K in LA, you will have as much money left over at the end of the month as someone who makes $27K, but lives in Lancaster PA, Clarksburg WV, etc.  If you make $27K and they are taking $22K in taxes, you should find another tax preparer/accountant.  Loans are a constant, and thus aren't of relevance to the calculation.

 But some clarification is in order: I meant Los Angeles, California, not whichever Los Angeles of which you speak.

If you can find me a house in a decent neighborhood for under $300K let me know, I'll buy it (note: median homes are not exactly homes people who go to law school aspire to usually, and even these are borderline at best in LA). Then again, I'll certainly be outbid by the HUNDREDS of other persons who would put down an offer within hours. Even homes in  Riverside/San Bern, a cozy 2 hour commute during rush hour, sell for considerably more.  Of course, not ALL homes in LA are expensive--plenty of homes become available in South Central relatively cheap given the attrition rate, so to speak (gunshots, crack deals gone bad, etc.).

But for those who get psyched by BigLaw in CA, here is reality (not nearly as bad as Manhattan, but still pretty brutal):
    
Median Price   

Calif.
$471,620    

Los Angeles   
$473,550    

Orange County   
$663,600    

Riverside/S. Bern.   
$342,120    

Sacramento   
$351,700    

San Diego   
$580,860    


That is $27k minus taxes is ~$22k.  If you can't make at least $60k or go to a school with good LRAP, don't go.  You'll go bankrupt trying to payoff the loans. 

Please give some calculations to support your assertion that making $27k anywhere is equal to $80k in LA.  And no, you don't need to have a $500k mortgage to live in the LA area. 

Where do you live?  I live in San Diego.  You don't need to buy a house for $475k to live in the LA metro area.  There are plenty of suburbs to the east that are cheaper.  Just looking at the city alone is not going to give you a real picture of the housing market.  LA sucks anyway.

Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: militarygrade on May 16, 2005, 02:48:10 AM

That is $27k minus taxes is ~$22k.  If you can't make at least $60k or go to a school with good LRAP, don't go.  You'll go bankrupt trying to payoff the loans. 

Please give some calculations to support your assertion that making $27k anywhere is equal to $80k in LA.  And no, you don't need to have a $500k mortgage to live in the LA area. 

Where do you live?  I live in San Diego.  You don't need to buy a house for $475k to live in the LA metro area.  There are plenty of suburbs to the east that are cheaper.  Just looking at the city alone is not going to give you a real picture of the housing market.  LA sucks anyway.



You have no idea what you are talking about.  I live 55 miles inland of LA.  You cannot, simply CANNOT, buy a house over 1000sq ft, that meets residential code, or is not a severe fixer-upper, for $250,000.  The cheapest house you can find around these parts is about $315,000, and that's for a crap crap crap house.  Like I said, I'm 55 miles inland, and for every 10 miles you get closer to LA, expect about $15,000 added to housing prices. 

You stated you live in San Diego - spout all you want about San Diego home prices.  But you obviously have no clue what houses in the LA area cost, so perhaps you should shut up and stop speaking like a know-it-all d00shbag.

Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: ccorsi on May 16, 2005, 07:14:25 AM
"similarly, why would a firm hire a widener or temple grad when Penn is right there in Philadelphia?"

Gee - I don't know.  Maybe because Penn only graduates a small percentage of the demand for lawyers any given year?  Temple, Villanova, Rutgers, etc. all place graduates well - and Philly is a good sized market.

Of course, there are some T4s that are money grubbing whores, but certainly not all.  Let's try to refrain from asinine generalizations.

C2
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: twarga on May 16, 2005, 07:40:03 AM
I got a full-tuition scholarship from Widener (and plan to hold onto it with a white-knuckle clutch, thank you).  If I can graduate with little or no debt, I'd be more than happy to take a $50K job doing something I enjoy.  I was making $27K as a legal secretary, and I would look into a gov't job before going that low in the private sector as an attorney.  Heck, I'm going to law school to make a better living for myself and my family.   
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: jdw112 on May 16, 2005, 07:40:35 AM
I know that some people want to be lawyers and have no regard for money, but this is insane. The only way I could justify a legal job at 27K was if I got a free ride through law school, and I was independently well-off/wealthy. I love the law, but I would not invest 100,000+ in an education only to make less than I could have made working as an administrative assistant, paralegal, or even a waiter. I despise ttt's, but the students there are still humans. Even the guy last in his class at Cooley deserves better than 27K, seriously.
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: twarga on May 16, 2005, 08:06:18 AM
I agree.  You can't pay the loans and afford McDonald's on $27K.
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: burghblast on May 16, 2005, 08:19:34 AM
Do you know that the last National Rookie Lawyer of the Year was a Widener grad?

Do you know that Widener is extremely competive with the "top" schools, and have taken two recent moot court competitions?

The school you go to may get you an interview, that is for sure; however, it is the graduate themselves that get the job.

Whoa, lawyers have a ROY award?? That's awesome! 
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: ccorsi on May 16, 2005, 08:43:53 AM
Do you know that the last National Rookie Lawyer of the Year was a Widener grad?

Do you know that Widener is extremely competive with the "top" schools, and have taken two recent moot court competitions?

The school you go to may get you an interview, that is for sure; however, it is the graduate themselves that get the job.

Whoa, lawyers have a ROY award?? That's awesome! 

Do they have a most improved as well?

I plan on tanking the first year to set expectations low and redeem myself when everyone else is on their sophmore slump.

C2
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: burghblast on May 16, 2005, 08:52:22 AM
Do you know that the last National Rookie Lawyer of the Year was a Widener grad?

Do you know that Widener is extremely competive with the "top" schools, and have taken two recent moot court competitions?

The school you go to may get you an interview, that is for sure; however, it is the graduate themselves that get the job.

Whoa, lawyers have a ROY award?? That's awesome! 

Do they have a most improved as well?

I plan on tanking the first year to set expectations low and redeem myself when everyone else is on their sophmore slump.

C2

Yeah! You'll be "Comeback Player of the Year" like Tommy Maddox or Kurt Warner!
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: BoscoBreaux on May 16, 2005, 12:16:09 PM
I know that some people want to be lawyers and have no regard for money, but this is insane. The only way I could justify a legal job at 27K was if I got a free ride through law school, and I was independently well-off/wealthy. I love the law, but I would not invest 100,000+ in an education only to make less than I could have made working as an administrative assistant, paralegal, or even a waiter. I despise third tier toilet's, but the students there are still humans. Even the guy last in his class at Cooley deserves better than 27K, seriously.
I'd agree, its not for me either. Then again, those Supreme Court law clerks are more than happy to make $45K a year, live in a bad neighborhood in DC, withstand the burden of $125K in loans, and then, a few years later, bring in the average salary of a Supreme Court law clerk upon leaving: $325,000 starting plus fast track to partner.
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: twarga on May 16, 2005, 12:19:47 PM
I know that some people want to be lawyers and have no regard for money, but this is insane. The only way I could justify a legal job at 27K was if I got a free ride through law school, and I was independently well-off/wealthy. I love the law, but I would not invest 100,000+ in an education only to make less than I could have made working as an administrative assistant, paralegal, or even a waiter. I despise third tier toilet's, but the students there are still humans. Even the guy last in his class at Cooley deserves better than 27K, seriously.
I'd agree, its not for me either. Then again, those Supreme Court law clerks are more than happy to make $45K a year, live in a bad neighborhood in DC, withstand the burden of $125K in loans, and then, a few years later, bring in the average salary of a Supreme Court law clerk upon leaving: $325,000 starting plus fast track to partner.

They're keeping their eyes on the prize.   ;)
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: jdw112 on May 16, 2005, 12:41:08 PM
I'd live out of dumpsters if I could get a SCOTUS clerkship.

I'd agree, its not for me either. Then again, those Supreme Court law clerks are more than happy to make $45K a year, live in a bad neighborhood in DC, withstand the burden of $125K in loans, and then, a few years later, bring in the average salary of a Supreme Court law clerk upon leaving: $325,000 starting plus fast track to partner.
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: Precise on May 16, 2005, 01:16:21 PM

That is $27k minus taxes is ~$22k.  If you can't make at least $60k or go to a school with good LRAP, don't go.  You'll go bankrupt trying to payoff the loans. 

Please give some calculations to support your assertion that making $27k anywhere is equal to $80k in LA.  And no, you don't need to have a $500k mortgage to live in the LA area. 

Where do you live?  I live in San Diego.  You don't need to buy a house for $475k to live in the LA metro area.  There are plenty of suburbs to the east that are cheaper.  Just looking at the city alone is not going to give you a real picture of the housing market.  LA sucks anyway.



You have no idea what you are talking about.  I live 55 miles inland of LA.  You cannot, simply CANNOT, buy a house over 1000sq ft, that meets residential code, or is not a severe fixer-upper, for $250,000.  The cheapest house you can find around these parts is about $315,000, and that's for a darn darn darn house.  Like I said, I'm 55 miles inland, and for every <a  style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=23&k=10%20miles" onmouseover="window.status='<a  style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=23&k=10%20miles" onmouseover="window.status='10 miles'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">10 miles[/url]'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">10 miles[/url] you get closer to LA, expect about $15,000 added to housing prices. 

You stated you live in San Diego - spout all you want about San Diego home prices.  But you obviously have no clue what houses in the LA area cost, so perhaps you should shut up and stop speaking like a know-it-all d00shbag.



Actually, you are the one that doesnt have a clue. The guy was totally accurate. I live in a san Gabriel Valley suburb about 20-25 miles east of Los Angeles and you can definitely find housing in the 300-400k range and I live in a pretty decent neighborhood as well. A two story, 4br 3ba place in my little gated complex went for 400k last year.
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: militarygrade on May 16, 2005, 03:55:19 PM

Actually, you are the one that doesnt have a clue. The guy was totally accurate. I live in a san Gabriel Valley suburb about 20-25 miles east of Los Angeles and you can definitely find housing in the 300-400k range and I live in a pretty decent neighborhood as well. A two story, 4br 3ba place in my little gated complex went for 400k last year.

Hey dish!t - he stated that a $250,000 house is easy to find.  Perhaps you should live true to your screen name and realize that 4br, 3ba house selling for $400k is not exactly "precise" when the discussion is about $250,000 homes.   ::)

Christ - and you want to be a lawyer?  uhhhhhhh.........
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: DodgerLaw on May 16, 2005, 06:49:38 PM
I would live in a dumpster for that opportunity.

I'd live out of dumpsters if I could get a SCOTUS clerkship.

I'd agree, its not for me either. Then again, those Supreme Court law clerks are more than happy to make $45K a year, live in a bad neighborhood in DC, withstand the burden of $125K in loans, and then, a few years later, bring in the average salary of a Supreme Court law clerk upon leaving: $325,000 starting plus fast track to partner.
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: hilljack on May 16, 2005, 10:37:38 PM

Actually, you are the one that doesnt have a clue. The guy was totally accurate. I live in a san Gabriel Valley suburb about 20-25 miles east of Los Angeles and you can definitely find housing in the 300-400k range and I live in a pretty decent neighborhood as well. A two story, 4br 3ba place in my little gated complex went for 400k last year.

Hey dish!t - he stated that a $250,000 house is easy to find.  Perhaps you should live true to your screen name and realize that 4br, 3ba house selling for $400k is not exactly "precise" when the discussion is about $250,000 homes.   ::)

Christ - and you want to be a lawyer?  uhhhhhhh.........

You can't just be a dickhead all the time, can you?
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: Precise on May 16, 2005, 11:21:18 PM

Actually, you are the one that doesnt have a clue. The guy was totally accurate. I live in a san Gabriel Valley suburb about 20-25 miles east of Los Angeles and you can definitely find housing in the 300-400k range and I live in a pretty decent neighborhood as well. A two story, 4br 3ba place in my little gated complex went for 400k last year.

Hey dish!t - he stated that a $250,000 house is easy to find.  Perhaps you should live true to your screen name and realize that 4br, 3ba house selling for $400k is not exactly "precise" when the discussion is about $250,000 homes.   ::)

Christ - and you want to be a lawyer?  uhhhhhhh.........

Wow, now I know how Michael Jordan felt when Craig Ehlo used to try and guard him.

Well Ehlo, you didnt quote anything about him saying "250k". You quoted him saying: "You don't need to buy a house for $475k to live in the LA metro area.  There are plenty of suburbs to the east that are cheaper."

Despite your fetish for internet confrontations, his statement is true and it did not warrant your anal response. Sorry a-hole, there are many ways for you to vent your anger at life. LSD isnt one of them.... maybe you should sip on green tea or fly a kite instead.

*waits for militarygrade to reply with his trademark "blah blah blah blah, dipsh!t/cumshot/jerkoff. blah blah blah blah blah feminine hygiene product/cockface/other juvenile insult" followed by a " ::)" response*

have a nice day!

Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: militarygrade on May 16, 2005, 11:29:06 PM

*waits for militarygrade to reply with his trademark "blah blah blah blah, dipsh!t/cumshot/jerkoff. blah blah blah blah blah feminine hygiene product/cockface/other juvenile insult" followed by a " ::)" response*

have a nice day!



You dipsh!t cumsh0t jerk0ff d00shbag.  ::)

Have a nice day!
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: sarbinson on May 16, 2005, 11:35:14 PM
Good comment Bosco.

Also you guys aren't stopping to think that there are people in the world that don't mind making 27k a year.

A close friend of mine is a 2L at U Texas. He is a huge hippy and doesn't care about money. He will probably work for a firm where they wear shorts and sandals and take 2 hour lunch breaks, and maybye be making as much as this Widener guy. Just because this guy isn't pulling in big bucks doesn't automatically mean thats all that was avaible to him.

EDIT: Grammar 

sarmstrong,

do those firms exist?  I could handle a lot less money if I could swing that kind of lifestyle too... does he have something like that lined up for this summer?  If so, he's quickly becoming a hero of mine.
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: mxpocc on May 17, 2005, 12:09:46 AM
Good comment Bosco.

Also you guys aren't stopping to think that there are people in the world that don't mind making 27k a year.

A close friend of mine is a 2L at U Texas. He is a huge hippy and doesn't care about money. He will probably work for a firm where they wear shorts and sandals and take 2 hour lunch breaks, and maybye be making as much as this Widener guy. Just because this guy isn't pulling in big bucks doesn't automatically mean thats all that was avaible to him.

EDIT: Grammar 

sarmstrong,

do those firms exist?  I could handle a lot less money if I could swing that kind of lifestyle too... does he have something like that lined up for this summer?  If so, he's quickly becoming a hero of mine.

move to Montana. almost all firms here are that way--no *&^%.
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: hdeth on May 19, 2005, 06:32:30 PM
whoaaaaaaaaaa.....660k in OC?!?!? whre the hell you living? I've never heard a figure near that high, always more in the 400~450k range, a little less if you can work them down a bit. seriously..where do you get those figures? i'm thinking about moving down to OC and for 660k...@#!* it! But i've never seen anything close to that unless your house has to be decent sized, but you'll never find a decent sized house in any of the areas you listed...

fromw hat i understand, SF is the most expensive, followed by san diego, then LA, then OC. average wages are highest in LA, then SF, then OC, then SD from what i understand.
I have seen some pretty decent houses in san bernadino and riverside for relatively cheap (still expensive) that you could commute to OC from...i couldn't stand living or wokring in LA, but thinking OC might be ok...SD and SF are too expensive...
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: DodgerLaw on May 20, 2005, 12:45:13 AM
Here's an example of a house near the O.C. median. This house is in an older, decent, but by no means great, area of Tustin pretty much smack in the middle of Orange County. 1624 square feet, built in 1962. Listed at $689,000.

http://www.imrmls.com:8080/servlet/lFullDetail?proptype=RESIDENTIAL&ml=T502736
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: linquest on May 20, 2005, 10:12:31 AM
You would be surprised how many people take low paying jobs, even from top schools...After all, residents in medschool immediately after graduation make similar low salaries.

Not a good example.  Medical residency is more of a continuation of education than it is considered employment (at least under the current laws thanks to the Bush Admin), like graduate students paid for research/teaching.  The hospitals have a captive workforce because you must complete a residency before becoming a full-fledged doctor, part of the reason why the salaries are so low.
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: Highway on May 20, 2005, 10:51:21 AM
I pretty much blame everything that is wrong with the world and/or cosmos on Bush. He's a rich guy who grew up in a rich family and doesn't know anything about what the average American Joe Schmo needs. He pushes his own views onto the American public and uses the pulpit of the presidency to do whatever he wants to.

That said, I'm not saying that most Dems who run for president aren't the same.

The president will always be an easy target for anything going wrong in the country.
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: linquest on May 20, 2005, 11:20:02 AM
Quote from: linquest

Not a good example.  Medical residency is more of a continuation of education than it is considered employment (at least under the current laws thanks to the Bush Admin),

holy darn, if I see one more thing blamed on Bush I am going to throw up!! WTF!!

I didn't "blame" Bush.  I don't necessarily think that decision was a bad one.  However, it is a fact that it was his ADMINISTRATION that reversed the court decisions from the Clinton-era since the influx of conservative appointees into the NLRB.
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: ccorsi on May 20, 2005, 11:40:36 AM
Sweet.  I like my politics like my coffee and women - bitter and caustic.

C2
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: HippieLawChick on May 20, 2005, 12:14:36 PM
I blame Phantic for everything that goes wrong.  (Both with the country and personally)

You bastard!

Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: linquest on May 20, 2005, 12:24:04 PM
"Blame" infers that I think the decision is wrong or harmful.  I think "attribute" would be a more accurate word.  Also, I didn't say Bush caused the change himself...his administration did.
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: linquest on May 20, 2005, 12:25:41 PM
I blame Phanatic for reminding me that I'm probably moving to a red state....
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: linquest on May 20, 2005, 12:29:53 PM
you don't think you lead the reader to infer that you considered the change to be harmful and wrong?  I would re-read the sentence you wrote.  I know this is being picky, but I'm bored.

No, I don't...so there :P
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: YankyKitten on May 20, 2005, 12:31:03 PM
PA is a blue state!

I blame Phanatic for everything too... why not?
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: linquest on May 20, 2005, 12:31:16 PM
I'm not bored, I'm just procrastinating....
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: linquest on May 20, 2005, 12:32:25 PM
Phanatic for President!  or National Scapegoat...
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: linquest on May 20, 2005, 12:46:22 PM
Back on topic though....

Should a firm that can only afford $27K for an Associate even exist?  I'm trying to imagine what kind of profit margin they have. 

For *(#@! sake, NYC hospital janitors make at least $28K+ with awesome benefits and pension....
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: YankyKitten on May 20, 2005, 12:55:14 PM
PA is a blue state!


don't remind me.  Although you and I both know that it REALLY isn't a blue state.  there's Philly and Pittsburgh....and then there's the vast Pennsyltucky which is overwhelmingly Republican.  Rick Santorum?  Hello!!!!!



Yes, the Alabama of PA!  lol... can you believe, I live in a predomoinately republican area (R myself) and my county gave the vote to Kerry?

linquist... I think they will pay someone as little as they can get away with, and if they W grad takes 27K, why not hire the slave/dog?  I have accepted Widener over 'Nova and Hofstra (frickin' temple reject) because of money.  I will never take that little of an amount to practice law... I know paralegals that I am graduating with that make more than that.
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: linquest on May 20, 2005, 01:05:03 PM
linquist... I think they will pay someone as little as they can get away with, and if they W grad takes 27K, why not hire the slave/dog?

I think you're right about that thought process.  It just doesn't make sense to me.  If a firm is offering $27K, they can't be expecting to hire the cream of the crop (or probably anyone in the top 80% of any school), and I can imagine that a bad (or even a merely incompetent) lawyer can do much more damage than his worth of $27K....
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: YankyKitten on May 20, 2005, 01:14:25 PM
linquist... I think they will pay someone as little as they can get away with, and if they W grad takes 27K, why not hire the slave/dog?

I think you're right about that thought process.  It just doesn't make sense to me.  If a firm is offering $27K, they can't be expecting to hire the cream of the crop (or probably anyone in the top 80% of any school), and I can imagine that a bad (or even a merely incompetent) lawyer can do much more damage than his worth of $27K....

very interesting viewpoint.  If you are indicating that the fault lies with the firm for hiring the idiot...then I agree.  Especially if they didn't have someone review their work.  I personally have been on the paralegal track, and only recently thought to shoot for the real dream, so I'm unfamiliar with how a "new" lawyer's work is treated.  Is it reviewed?
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: Al on May 20, 2005, 02:09:42 PM
You would be surprised how many people take low paying jobs, even from top schools...After all, residents in medschool immediately after graduation make similar low salaries.

Not a good example.  Medical residency is more of a continuation of education than it is considered employment (at least under the current laws thanks to the Bush Admin), like graduate students paid for research/teaching.  The hospitals have a captive workforce because you must complete a residency before becoming a full-fledged doctor, part of the reason why the salaries are so low.


With all due respect you are absolutely wrong. Any of you who think that the first 5 years of your life as an attorney is not a  continuiation of your education BELONG in a lower tier school.

Your education as a lawyer never ends, and if anything the first 5 years of practice anywhere will form the lawyer you will become. It is absolutely appropriate to take a hit in your salary, a sacrifice so to speak, in order to be able to get litigation experience for example, or specialized contract experience. That is how it works in law, medicine, almost any professional trade.

And techincally you are a full doctor once you finish four years of med school and write your final boards BEFORE your residency. If you wanted you could even go to the middle of nowhere small town and do a residency with a family doctor, the same way a lawyer would with a small town practicioner. As long as the small town doctor has privileges at a local hospital.

You should be happy you got into a 4rth tier school I think, it suits you.
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: linquest on May 20, 2005, 04:21:44 PM
Your education as a lawyer never ends, and if anything the first 5 years of practice anywhere will form the lawyer you will become. It is absolutely appropriate to take a hit in your salary, a sacrifice so to speak, in order to be able to get litigation experience for example, or specialized contract experience. That is how it works in law, medicine, almost any professional trade.

And techincally you are a full doctor once you finish four years of med school and write your final boards BEFORE your residency. If you wanted you could even go to the middle of nowhere small town and do a residency with a family doctor, the same way a lawyer would with a small town practicioner. As long as the small town doctor has privileges at a local hospital.

Obviously, every profession has to pay it's dues.  I never said that learning should stop once you get your JD.  However, you are completely misinterpeting what I meant by "continuation of education".  A new lawyer just out of law school can practice independently once he passes the bar.  A new doctor just out of med school cannot.  Every state has a graduate medical education requirement (i.e "residency") of 1-3 years before they can obtain a license to practice.  Conversely, there is NO post-law school practical experience prerequisite for a lawyer to hang out his own shingle after passing the bar.  Furthermore, most states dictate that the medical licensing exam (usually the USMLE) may not be taken until at least 1 year into the GME/residency program.

Additionally, let me reiterate that medical residents are considered students NOT employees under federal regs like the NLRA.  The new attorney in the OP's example IS an employee.  This is the main reason why I think the medical resident:new attorney comparison is an apples to oranges (or at least pears) comparison.  The formal educational component that the medical resident receives is considered part of his compensation (think of it as free tuition), and thus she/he receives a much lower salary than a fully-licensed doctor.  A brand new attorney at a firm--although he may still be learning--is not enrolled in a formal, accredited education program that is required by the state for them to practice independently, and so I think he should compensated accordingly.
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: DunkinsFan on May 21, 2005, 02:09:36 PM
I blame Phanatic for reminding me that I'm probably moving to a red state....

LOL, pretty hard not to, unless you're going to Boalt or Harvard (county wise anyway)

Whaa? ???  I'm confused. You're saying it's hard not to end up in a red state if you're going to law school?  Let's look at the T-14, to start with

Yale: CT, 3rd or 4th bluest state in the country
Harvard: MA, doesn't get much more blue than that
Stanford, Boalt: CA, blue
NYU, Columbia, Cornell: NY, very blue.
Chicago, Northwestern: IL, blue
Penn: blue
UVA: RED!
Michigan: Kinda purplish, but still blue.
Duke: Another red, that makes 2.
Georgetown: DC is 90% blue.

So 2 out of the top 14 schools are in red states... obviously there are a lot more law schools, but I'd be willing to bet at least 60% of them are in blue states as well.

Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: DunkinsFan on May 21, 2005, 07:13:56 PM
I blame Phanatic for reminding me that I'm probably moving to a red state....

LOL, pretty hard not to, unless you're going to Boalt or Harvard (county wise anyway)

Whaa? ???  I'm confused. You're saying it's hard not to end up in a red state if you're going to law school?  Let's look at the T-14, to start with

Yale: CT, 3rd or 4th bluest state in the country
Harvard: MA, doesn't get much more blue than that
Stanford, Boalt: CA, blue
NYU, Columbia, Cornell: NY, very blue.
Chicago, Northwestern: IL, blue
Penn: blue
UVA: RED!
Michigan: Kinda purplish, but still blue.
Duke: Another red, that makes 2.
Georgetown: DC is 90% blue.

So 2 out of the top 14 schools are in red states... obviously there are a lot more law schools, but I'd be willing to bet at least 60% of them are in blue states as well.



have you ever heard of a blatently obvious joke dunkin?  Jesus, man.......you took me a little to literal there.

LOL.  Ok, you got me.  But I was actually curious about the blue/red breakdown of the top law schools, so it wasn't *all* about proving a point ; )
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: twarga on May 21, 2005, 07:18:38 PM
I heard that managers at Wal-Mart make $35K per year.   :-\  I'm still going to Widener, though.
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: DunkinsFan on May 21, 2005, 07:20:02 PM
i hear ya.  I fall prey to that kind of thing myself from time to time

At least I didn't look up all 189 ABA-accredited law schools... I decided I wasn't *that* bored and I should quit when I was ahead...
Title: Re: Widener Grad takes 27k/yr job with firm
Post by: Future-Haitian-Lawyer on May 22, 2005, 05:21:53 PM
While I do believe that money is a necessary mean. However, one should be aware that not all of us are interested in working for Big Law firrm and end up making a lot money.
As for me, I am more interested into the Government or non-profit organization.
I truthfully believe that we all go to school for different purpose. I remember after my MBA, my first job was with the State of New Jersey (I still have the same job). A lot of my co-workers were stating that what the heck was doing with MBA for the State of New Jersey by making 38K. Guess what? I did not worry about their say. As a single man, I was getting good experience with the State, I had in my to prepare for the Law School ( which I hope to start in fall 2006), It was not a problem for me at all.
I believe that the point I want to pass on, we all have different objective in life.
Nevertheless, it makes it difficult if you graduated from Law School with a lot debt to work for public/non-profit sector, because you will not be able to pay your debt.
Having say that, we should be aware of a lot of schools have repayment programs which devout specially to student who are willing to work for the public/non-profit sector.
For instance, the State Department has a program in place, if you work for them as a consular, they will pay 40K+ for you.
people need to take different things into consideration when making decision. Therefore, I do not at all think that the guy who take the 27k job made a bad mistake if he does not think so, because we have to take into consideration that he is willing to take a risk today, so that he can maximize his happiness tomorrow ( such happiness is relative as you might know better than me).
let's wish him good luck.
I rest my case. lol