Law School Discussion

Specific Groups => Black Law Students => Topic started by: blk_reign on April 28, 2005, 08:53:54 AM

Title: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on April 28, 2005, 08:53:54 AM
Faith started this discussion before.. but i think that a thread needs to be dedicated to it


New Report Details Inequality For Black Americans
By ERIN TEXEIRA
AP National Writer

NEW YORK (AP) _ Though income and education gaps between black and white Americans have narrowed significantly, black households still have barely one-tenth the net worth of white households, according to a new National Urban League report.

Middle class blacks' tenuous hold on prosperity reflects racial discrimination in housing and other wealth-building arenas _ both historically and now _ and suggests that today's U.S. civil rights battles are largely economic, said Marc H. Morial, Urban League president.

``Since the 1960s, one of the success stories is the growth of the African-American middle class _ those who are college-educated, participating throughout the American economy and growing in stature and influence,'' Morial said. ``But what we face is that these successes of 40 years are being eroded. The danger is the great backslide that can occur.''

``The State of Black America 2005,'' scheduled to be released Wednesday at a Washington news conference, comes as the Urban League also calls on Congress to assemble a bipartisan commission on economic equality and advancement.

Analyzing a broad range of government statistics, the report compares life quality for blacks and whites in dozens of categories related to economics, health, education, civic participation and social justice. Taking the whole picture into account, the report produced a measure of blacks overall well-being, which it described as barely three-fourths that of whites _ a ratio that was unchanged from last year to this year.

``Last year, I said I looked forward to seeing these numbers improve. Our update, however, does not represent an improvement,'' said James Diffley of Global Insight, the Philadelphia-based economic research firm that compiled the data. ``There is a gap between black America and white America.''

Among the report's findings:

_Blacks have more than double the unemployment rate of whites.

_Less than half of blacks own homes compared to more than three-fourths of whites.

_Black youth are more likely to have poorly trained teachers, live in poverty and not have health insurance than whites.

Still, the report also makes clear that black America has made significant gains in some areas.

Since 1960, when black men earned only 50 cents for every dollar earned by white men, income gaps have narrowed as the black middle class has grown and become more educated. In 2000, black men earned 64 cents on the dollar, according to Thomas M. Shapiro, a professor of law and social policy at Brandeis University who wrote an essay, ``The Racial Wealth Gap,'' in the Urban League's report.

But Shapiro said that net worth shows how families accumulate gains over generations.

``Wealth really rounds the picture out and gives us a deeper perspective,'' said Shapiro, whose essay is based on his book, ``The Hidden Cost of Being African American,'' published last year.

The median net worth of black versus white households has remained virtually unchanged for more than a decade: In 2000, black households on average were worth $6,166 compared to $67,000 for whites, census data show. The ratio was virtually identical in the early 1990s.

Since most Americans build wealth through home ownership, inequities in the housing market explain much of the gap, Shapiro said.

Today, studies show, among blacks and whites with comparable credit histories, blacks are 60 percent more likely to be denied home loans as whites, he said.

This wealth gap, Shapiro writes, ``is reversing gains earned in schools and on jobs and making inequality worse.''
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on April 28, 2005, 09:00:01 AM

Less than half of blacks own homes compared to more than three-fourths of whites.



With that said.. I’m here to do whatever I can to help you guys in your quest for wealth-building and home ownership.. if you are considering purchasing a home.. I can help you get an excellent deal anywhere in this country… a very dear friend of mine is an African American loan officer  and she works with all types of credit.. finds excellent deals in spite of student loans.. so if you’re interested.. feel free to PM me for further details…

Onward and Upward in the struggle!

Edit: As a barred attorney I can also help with some of the seller consession (ie builder/seller contracts)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: MsJay9 on April 28, 2005, 10:55:08 AM
 :) Good Job!  You know we needed this thread....(and u know I did)  :)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: jsonlaw on April 28, 2005, 11:37:24 AM
Amen! 

Actually, I believe that black home ownership is at 52% now.  Owning a home is pertinent to building wealth, but the disparity in home values are crazy.  What other ways, besides spending 92% of our incomes on materialistic stuff, can black people build wealth?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: angmill08 on April 28, 2005, 11:59:47 AM
I just read a column recently in either the WSJ or the NYT about wealth building and privatization of social security which claimed that private accounts would help black families build wealth because the $$ could be passed on to heirs. Apparently now, elderly people collect Social Security until they die (or until their spouse dies) but if both die relatively young, they could have paid more into the system than they take out. Since blacks on average have shorter life spans than whites, I believe the argument was that, on average, blacks are not getting as much benefit from social security as whites. I thought this was an unusual argument, and I don't really know much about privatization plans. Of course, now that I go back and try to search for the article (I think it was an op-ed piece) I can't find it... sorry to be so vague here. But I wonder if anyone else knows more or has strong opinions about the capacity for social security changes to help/hinder wealth building?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on April 28, 2005, 12:07:07 PM
investing.. perhaps HBCU and Biting Panther can speak on that (hint)

Amen! 

Actually, I believe that black home ownership is at 52% now.  Owning a home is pertinent to building wealth, but the disparity in home values are crazy.  What other ways, besides spending 92% of our incomes on materialistic stuff, can black people build wealth?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: HBCU.EDU on April 28, 2005, 01:13:53 PM
Amen! 

Actually, I believe that black home ownership is at 52% now.  Owning a home is pertinent to building wealth, but the disparity in home values are crazy.  What other ways, besides spending 92% of our incomes on materialistic stuff, can black people build wealth?

As a stockbroker, I would definitely say you could look into stocks, bonds, mutual funds and a myriad of other investment products that you can find in the market. Its not easy to tell you exactly where you should put your money because there is no such thing as a “one size fits all” investment strategy. You have to look at things like your current debt, annual/monthly income, your education and your family life. Your 5-10 year goals are important. It’s important for a investment advisor to know if you have kids, a wife and if you own a home. I would say that before you make any big decision to get in the market you should definitely buy a home first. Well, unless you feel like you have a “sure thing” and we are dealing with a 90s market for example. I mean, if the opportunity presents itself I say go for it. However, that’s another issue all together: risk tolerance. Who knows, perhaps you want large caps, small caps, options, or you may even want to do day trading or long term investing. There are really so many ways you can approach the market. With that said I would just go to the library and read a few books on investing. You know, I use to read IBD, Barrons, and the wall street journal a lot. Be smart about it though. Do some research on the subject first that way you will have more specific question about the market if you feel like that is where you want to go. There are so many books on investing that it will make your nose bleed.

HTH     

Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: jsonlaw on April 28, 2005, 01:58:33 PM
Amen! 

Actually, I believe that black home ownership is at 52% now.  Owning a home is pertinent to building wealth, but the disparity in home values are crazy.  What other ways, besides spending 92% of our incomes on materialistic stuff, can black people build wealth?

As a stockbroker, I would definitely say you could look into stocks, bonds, mutual funds and a myriad of other investment products that you can find in the market. Its not easy to tell you exactly where you should put your money because there is no such thing as a “one size fits all” investment strategy. You have to look at things like your current debt, annual/monthly income, your education and your family life. Your 5-10 year goals are important. It’s important for a investment advisor to know if you have kids, a wife and if you own a home. I would say that before you make any big decision to get in the market you should definitely buy a home first. Well, unless you feel like you have a “sure thing” and we are dealing with a 90s market for example. I mean, if the opportunity presents itself I say go for it. However, that’s another issue all together: risk tolerance. Who knows, perhaps you want large caps, small caps, options, or you may even want to do day trading or long term investing. There are really so many ways you can approach the market. With that said I would just go to the library and read a few books on investing. You know, I use to read IBD, Barrons, and the wall street journal a lot. Be smart about it though. Do some research on the subject first that way you will have more specific question about the market if you feel like that is where you want to go. There are so many books on investing that it will make your nose bleed.

HTH     



I hit u on PM.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: faith2005 on April 28, 2005, 02:09:49 PM
I just read a column recently in either the WSJ or the NYT about wealth building and privatization of social security which claimed that private accounts would help black families build wealth because the $$ could be passed on to heirs. Apparently now, elderly people collect Social Security until they die (or until their spouse dies) but if both die relatively young, they could have paid more into the system than they take out. Since blacks on average have shorter life spans than whites, I believe the argument was that, on average, blacks are not getting as much benefit from social security as whites. I thought this was an unusual argument, and I don't really know much about privatization plans. Of course, now that I go back and try to search for the article (I think it was an op-ed piece) I can't find it... sorry to be so vague here. But I wonder if anyone else knows more or has strong opinions about the capacity for social security changes to help/hinder wealth building?

I read something discussing this life expectancy issue as well. I guess the biggest question though is that the $ is not guaranteed, so where does that leave people if the market goes bad? you are done. And most older people don't have that safety net to fall back on, let alone older people of color. I don't have any strong informed opinions about the reform, but in general I a suspicious anything that makes wall st. more money. who really benefits from investing that $. I think the people who stand to gain the most are the corporations who will make $ on those management fees etc. but if somebody knows different I'm willing to be persuaded.

oh and thanks for the shout out blk!  :)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: SheLaw on April 28, 2005, 02:12:11 PM
HBCU - I just went to amazon.com to try to find some books on investing.  You're right, there's a whole lot to choose from.  I'm completely new to investing and have no background in business whatsoever so I'm looking for book (or books) that's basic but thorough.  So far, it looks like I may buy "The Four Pillars of Investing: Lessons for building a Winning Portfolio" since it has good reviews on amazon.  Are there any books that you would personally recommend I check out?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: bobo21 on April 28, 2005, 02:33:57 PM
If you guys are up to a little latino input, several people recommended a book called "Get a Financial Life", which I read and liked.  It is a good basic starting point.  Wheny you get to a position where you want more specificity, i.e. buying a house or investing in individual stocks, they point you in the right direction.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: HBCU.EDU on April 28, 2005, 02:37:41 PM
HBCU - I just went to amazon.com to try to find some books on investing.  You're right, there's a whole lot to choose from.  I'm completely new to investing and have no background in business whatsoever so I'm looking for book (or books) that's basic but thorough.  So far, it looks like I may buy "The Four Pillars of Investing: Lessons for building a Winning Portfolio" since it has good reviews on amazon.  Are there any books that you would personally recommend I check out?

I've read many. But, I'll look at a few and def. post the ones that I like best. I'll do that soon.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Ladyday on April 28, 2005, 04:36:54 PM
I just read a column recently in either the WSJ or the NYT about wealth building and privatization of social security which claimed that private accounts would help black families build wealth because the $$ could be passed on to heirs. Apparently now, elderly people collect Social Security until they die (or until their spouse dies) but if both die relatively young, they could have paid more into the system than they take out. Since blacks on average have shorter life spans than whites, I believe the argument was that, on average, blacks are not getting as much benefit from social security as whites. I thought this was an unusual argument, and I don't really know much about privatization plans. Of course, now that I go back and try to search for the article (I think it was an op-ed piece) I can't find it... sorry to be so vague here. But I wonder if anyone else knows more or has strong opinions about the capacity for social security changes to help/hinder wealth building?

Hmmmm, interesting, I just read an article that says the assumption that blacks get less benefit from lower life expectancy is not as correct, but I can't find the article anymore, if I come across it again I will post it.

But I meant to post all the the great things from the conference but never got a chance, but I'm happy you brought up social security  :). In Maxine Waters speech, this issue was one that she spent the most time talking about. Ultimately she was saying that all this talk about Social Security not being around is a bunch of BS that the republican machine is spitting out to both the older and younger generations (especially the younger) in attempt to scare us into believing we will no longer have benefits and so that we'll support privatization. For the most part, privatization helps the 1% of the population get richer, and like someone pointed out before, you could potentially lose everything. Social security was designed for you to have guaranteed benefits not gamble and lose it. She said that there is enough money currently in the system up to year 2052. Furthermore, even Pres Bush admits that privatization will not solve the current problem. Basically, don't believe the hype
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: SheLaw on April 29, 2005, 10:53:59 AM
Bobo21- Thanks for the recommendation.  I'm definitely gonna look into that book as well.

Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on May 12, 2005, 02:14:16 PM

As a stockbroker, I would definitely say you could look into stocks, bonds, mutual funds and a myriad of other investment products that you can find in the market. Its not easy to tell you exactly where you should put your money because there is no such thing as a “one size fits all” investment strategy. You have to look at things like your current debt, annual/monthly income, your education and your family life. Your 5-10 year goals are important. It’s important for a investment advisor to know if you have kids, a wife and if you own a home. I would say that before you make any big decision to get in the market you should definitely buy a home first. Well, unless you feel like you have a “sure thing” and we are dealing with a 90s market for example. I mean, if the opportunity presents itself I say go for it. However, that’s another issue all together: risk tolerance. Who knows, perhaps you want large caps, small caps, options, or you may even want to do day trading or long term investing. There are really so many ways you can approach the market. With that said I would just go to the library and read a few books on investing. You know, I use to read IBD, Barrons, and the wall street journal a lot. Be smart about it though. Do some research on the subject first that way you will have more specific question about the market if you feel like that is where you want to go. There are so many books on investing that it will make your nose bleed.

HTH     
Sorry I'm late to this thread, I just never saw it.

Good post HBCU.  One thing that HBCU hit on that you never see mentioned in the Social Security discourse is the concept of risk.  They mention higher potential returns without mentioning the higher risk.  This is one of the most prevalent cognitive errors people make when thinking about finances: thinking about return without taking risk into account.  This is similar to people who say, "I can't wait to get my Biglaw job and be making 100K per year, while ignoring the fact that at an 80 hour week, this works out to $25 per hour, which is the same as someone working a regular 40 hour week, making 50K per year.  The same way you can't look at the 100K per year (return) while ignoring the input (hours worked), one cannot make investment judgements based on higher potential returns without considering the input, which is RISK.

I have to give it to the Republican machine though, they're good.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: BadAssOne on May 12, 2005, 02:27:14 PM
Maybe instead of blaming Republicans you ought to blame the black rappers/athletes that basically swindle black youth into spending what money they have on jewelry and basketball shoes.  Blacks need to get their priorities straight.

By the way, privatization does not hurt the poor, rather it helps them.  Why would you not want build wealth that can be passed onto your children in the event that you don't live to realize the full amount of your social security benefits?  I find it funny that liberals have swindled so many blacks into believing that being beholdent to the government will somehow improve their lot in life. 
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: HBCU.EDU on May 12, 2005, 02:46:09 PM
Maybe instead of blaming Republicans you ought to blame the black rappers/athletes that basically swindle black youth into spending what money they have on jewelry and basketball shoes.  Blacks need to get their priorities straight.

By the way, privatization does not hurt the poor, rather it helps them.  Why would you not want build wealth that can be passed onto your children in the event that you don't live to realize the full amount of your social security benefits?  I find it funny that liberals have swindled so many blacks into believing that being beholdent to the government will somehow improve their lot in life. 


I'm a Republican and I don't believe in privatization. As a stockbroker I can see who really benefits for this a mile away. INVESTMENT FIRMS! PERIOD! Hell, they are going to make so much money on commissions that you would have to be crazy not to buy stock in etrade, scott trade, merrill lynch, etc.

See, in finance, there is this concept of diversification. The way social security is set up now helps SPREAD THE RISK. Buddy, if you bring in privatization you are going to put the RISK in the hands of INDIVIDUAL investors who don't know jack sh*t about the market! They don't know a stop order from a market order. Also, depending on how the market is doing some people will make more money than others depening on the ebb and flow of the DOW.

Think of the word SOCIAL SECURITY. It's not SOCIAL SPECULATION.

By the way, this is why Black Democrats need to have more respect for Black Republicans. It's possible for Black Dem and Black Rep to come together and work on issues that are important for black people. We may not agree on everything but it would be good to have a friend in the Rep. party, like myself, to help you when your party is not in power.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 12, 2005, 03:04:15 PM
HBCU-i love to hear u speak about financial power...

Badassone- it's obvious that you don't know what you're talking about.. black rappers and black athletes aren't holding a gun or a noose over anyone's head and saying hey be like me...

are you black?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 12, 2005, 03:14:23 PM


I'm a Republican and I don't believe in privatization. As a stockbroker I can see who really benefits for this a mile away. INVESTMENT FIRMS! PERIOD! Hell, they are going to make so much money on commissions that you would have to be crazy not to buy stock in etrade, scott trade, merrill lynch, etc.

See, in finance, there is this concept of diversification. The way social security is set up now helps SPREAD THE RISK. Buddy, if you bring in privatization you are going to put the RISK in the hands of INDIVIDUAL investors who don't know jack sh*t about the market! They don't know a stop order from a market order. Also, depending on how the market is doing some people will make more money than others depening on the ebb and flow of the DOW.

Think of the word SOCIAL SECURITY. It's not SOCIAL SPECULATION.

By the way, this is why Black Democrats need to have more respect for Black Republicans. It's possible for Black Dem and Black Rep to come together and work on issues that are important for black people. We may not agree on everything but it would be good to have a friend in the Rep. party, like myself, to help you when your party is not in power.

HBCU, man, you best stop it with that "I'm a Republican" mess  >:( Say you are an Independent; hell, say you hate the Democratic Party with a vengeance, but don't put yourself in the party of those who would continue to rape and pillage your people if they could get away with it.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on May 12, 2005, 03:18:47 PM
Maybe instead of blaming Republicans you ought to blame the black rappers/athletes that basically swindle black youth into spending what money they have on jewelry and basketball shoes.  Blacks need to get their priorities straight.

By the way, privatization does not hurt the poor, rather it helps them.  Why would you not want build wealth that can be passed onto your children in the event that you don't live to realize the full amount of your social security benefits?  I find it funny that liberals have swindled so many blacks into believing that being beholdent to the government will somehow improve their lot in life. 

First let me take back my Republican dig, cause I realize that there are Republicans out there who are capable of independent thought and are not just drones to be programmed and sent to push certain agendas (Kudos HBCU!).  I'm working on becoming more open-minded on this.

As for your post "newbie":  It's interesting how some folks cannot see pass the rhetoric and recognize the real.  You don't even have to be a finance head to see this.  Okay, let's stick with my employment analogy: Imagine  you have two choices 1) a job that pays a flat 50K per year and 2)a commision based sales job that has the potential to pay more than 50K per year. Ofcourse the sales job can pay more than 50K, but you would not want to ignore the fact that the sales job could potentially pay far less than 50K depending on how you do.  This is my point.  The machine ignores this possibility, and further ignores the fact that risk is multiplied (risk measured by volatility of returns or just shortfall risk (possibility of not achieving your goals))
 
Consider the worst periods in recent market history (1973-74, Dow Jones down 45%; 1977-1978, Dow down 25.6%; 1987 -- crash, Dow down 36%; 2000-2002, Nasdaq down 78%.  Now show this to an old lady who would have retired in one of these years under a private program.  She would would have had to delay retirement (or get a supermarket job) for another 15 years just to break even.

It's not even a black and white thing kid.  This is reality.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 12, 2005, 03:30:22 PM
that's a perfect analogy!!! None of us are going to take a commission based job as our only source of income...it's like playing the lottery.. i could win 56 million dollars.. but am i going to bank on that happening? never that



Okay, let's stick with my employment analogy: Imagine  you have two choices 1) a job that pays a flat 50K per year and 2)a commision based sales job that has the potential to pay more than 50K per year. Ofcourse the sales job can pay more than 50K, but you would not want to ignore the fact that the sales job could potentially pay far less than 50K depending on how you do.  This is my point.  The machine ignores this possibility, and further ignores the fact that risk is multiplied (risk measured by volatility of returns or just shortfall risk (possibility of not achieving your goals))
 

Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 12, 2005, 03:41:33 PM
BP, could you send me that financial guide?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 12, 2005, 03:43:16 PM
A lot of economists have been warning about a bubble around the housing market, any thoughts/opinions on this subject?  horrible time to buy?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on May 12, 2005, 04:33:38 PM
A lot of economists have been warning about a bubble around the housing market, any thoughts/opinions on this subject?  horrible time to buy?

There are huge differences between the stock market and the real estate market.  The speculative bubble in the stock market was driven by insane stock valuations, the internet phenomena, a gambling mentality (every Tom male private part and Harry thought they could get rich overnight), and great marketing by new companies and brokerage houses.

On the other hand, the increase in home prices has been driven by more "honest" demand.  People need a place to live, and in certain areas of the country that are more attractive for people to move to (DC for example) demand has just been crazy.  This coupled with a favorable interest rate environment and somewhat limited housing supply, prices had no way to go but up.  This is a somewhat simplified explanation, but I'm trying to get this across: the drivers that pushed stock prices to those astronomically insane levels are far different from those that have moved the real estate market to current levels. 

Furthermore, (daymn this is getting long), for there to be a "bursting of the bubble" there has to be some liquidity, like the stock market, where prices can drop 50% in a day.  There is no such liquidity in the housing market, so the worse we can probably see is a "fizzle"...i.e price appreciation slowing down over a reasonably long period of time.

I can send you some info on this if you like.  Oh, and I'll bring the financial guide stuff to work tomorrow, and send it to you.
HTH   






Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Muse on May 12, 2005, 05:37:57 PM
BP is going to buy my house.  ;)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 12, 2005, 05:48:53 PM
A lot of economists have been warning about a bubble around the housing market, any thoughts/opinions on this subject?  horrible time to buy?

There are huge differences between the stock market and the real estate market.  The speculative bubble in the stock market was driven by insane stock valuations, the internet phenomena, a gambling mentality (every Tom male private part and Harry thought they could get rich overnight), and great marketing by new companies and brokerage houses.

On the other hand, the increase in home prices has been driven by more "honest" demand.  People need a place to live, and in certain areas of the country that are more attractive for people to move to (DC for example) demand has just been crazy.  This coupled with a favorable interest rate environment and somewhat limited housing supply, prices had no way to go but up.  This is a somewhat simplified explanation, but I'm trying to get this across: the drivers that pushed stock prices to those astronomically insane levels are far different from those that have moved the real estate market to current levels. 

Furthermore, (daymn this is getting long), for there to be a "bursting of the bubble" there has to be some liquidity, like the stock market, where prices can drop 50% in a day.  There is no such liquidity in the housing market, so the worse we can probably see is a "fizzle"...i.e price appreciation slowing down over a reasonably long period of time.

I can send you some info on this if you like.  Oh, and I'll bring the financial guide stuff to work tomorrow, and send it to you.
HTH   








please do
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: faith2005 on May 13, 2005, 09:09:52 AM
BP is going to buy my house.  ;)

really? where? (j/k regal) :)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 13, 2005, 09:11:19 AM
 :D

BP is going to buy my house.  ;)

really? where? (j/k regal) :)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: seu2002 on May 13, 2005, 09:13:47 AM


:D

BP is going to buy my house.  ;)

really? where? (j/k regal) :)


yeah, but i'm having his children. 
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 13, 2005, 09:19:30 AM
so is anyone trying to buy a home anytime soon? :)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: seu2002 on May 13, 2005, 09:22:08 AM
from what i've gathered, it's just BP.  and you too, no?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 13, 2005, 09:25:27 AM
i have a home already ;D.. now i'm trying to help others ;D


from what i've gathered, it's just BP.  and you too, no?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on May 13, 2005, 09:58:44 AM


:D

BP is going to buy my house.  ;)

really? where? (j/k regal) :)


yeah, but i'm having his children. 

 :D
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: angelus on May 13, 2005, 11:25:04 AM
Econnomic subjugation is a useful tool. Get he masses excited about a product through media manipulation and they will spend all their money on consumable goods taht lose value over time rather than investing their money in property, education, stocks, etc. thus they have a hand in their own subjugation....IMO.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 13, 2005, 12:07:28 PM
why are you SO negative  ???


Econnomic subjugation is a useful tool. Get he masses excited about a product through media manipulation and they will spend all their money on consumable goods taht lose value over time rather than investing their money in property, education, stocks, etc. thus they have a hand in their own subjugation....IMO.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Made4law on May 13, 2005, 12:13:08 PM
so is anyone trying to buy a home anytime soon? :)

Hey folks, I thought I would chime in with my thoughts on home ownership.  

First off owning a home alone will not make you rich, however what it can and will do for you is provide a cushion for certain "financial mistakes" that one may make in their youth. ;)  It will also provide you with a valuable tax write off each year.  But what home ownership has done for me is provide an opportunity for me to achieve my dream of being an attorney.  I am a fairly young man and have owned my house for 7 years...I am selling this house and buying a new house and going to Law school.  The selling of my house and moving to a less expensive, and better area is allowing me to accomplish all of my goals, limit my debt and keep my family happy at the same time.  I am saying this as a testimonial to the power of home ownership.  Most markets are growing and will probably continue to grow because..."They don't make Real Estate anymore"...sure the bubble may burst or shrink but people will always need a place to live...and the American Dream is based upon owning land, and if that is not enough the Bible says to own land and property.  When we as a race begin to put Homeownership above all other material items, then we will begin to see a shift in the wealth of America flowing more in our direction.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: angelus on May 13, 2005, 12:19:59 PM
I thought I was being realistic.

why are you SO negative  ???


Econnomic subjugation is a useful tool. Get he masses excited about a product through media manipulation and they will spend all their money on consumable goods taht lose value over time rather than investing their money in property, education, stocks, etc. thus they have a hand in their own subjugation....IMO.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: official2008 on May 13, 2005, 12:34:24 PM
Let me jump in on this one.

I have to disagree on the whole American dream/buy a house theory. I’m against buying homes to “build wealth,” as far as helping black people goes. I think the discussion so far has been talking about the wrong type of wealth, (i.e. monetary) which doesn’t necessarily follow from buying a home btw.

We should be trying to build political capital rather than anything fiscal. You see, people always think that money is power, but it’s just the opposite, power is money (you have to understand the linguistic properties of identity to understand that the statement I just made isn’t the same), but let me explain what I’m saying. It doesn’t matter where you live, or if you own that residence or not, what matters is how you live. Being stuck under a burdensome mortgage for 20-30+ years is not the way to go.  However, owning a solid stock portfolio is, having the mobility to get up and leave a particular political district or economy is as well. 

Just think if black people instead of putting 30 to sometimes 60/80% of their income into buying a house were to invest that money into something that helps us all. Like black businesses, black banks…Africa!

Of course there are exceptions, but buying a home is so secondary.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Statistic on May 13, 2005, 12:52:08 PM
official - what are you doing in the UK?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: HBCU.EDU on May 13, 2005, 12:56:08 PM
 :D And you said that *&^% with a modicum of sincerity!






Let me jump in on this one.

I have to disagree on the whole American dream/buy a house theory. I’m against buying homes to “build wealth,” as far as helping black people goes. I think the discussion so far has been talking about the wrong type of wealth, (i.e. monetary) which doesn’t necessarily follow from buying a home btw.

We should be trying to build political capital rather than anything fiscal. You see, people always think that money is power, but it’s just the opposite, power is money (you have to understand the linguistic properties of identity to understand that the statement I just made isn’t the same), but let me explain what I’m saying. It doesn’t matter where you live, or if you own that residence or not, what matters is how you live. Being stuck under a burdensome mortgage for 20-30+ years is not the way to go.  However, owning a solid stock portfolio is, having the mobility to get up and leave a particular political district or economy is as well. 

Just think if black people instead of putting 30 to sometimes 60/80% of their income into buying a house were to invest that money into something that helps us all. Like black businesses, black banks…Africa!

Of course there are exceptions, but buying a home is so secondary.

Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: official2008 on May 13, 2005, 12:59:31 PM
official - what are you doing in the UK?

RBG: working...for some international law firms


HBCU: hell yeah i'm sincere, please explain it to me how i'm wrong. 
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: HBCU.EDU on May 13, 2005, 01:04:40 PM
No. I don't feel like it. Also, I'm not smart enough to defend my view. I just like to reject topics without backing it up with anything. My girl will get you though. She is smart. She graduated from a PWI. .:-\


official - what are you doing in the UK?

RBG: working...for some international law firms


HBCU: hell yeah i'm sincere, please explain it to me how i'm wrong. 
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 13, 2005, 01:09:45 PM
So you’d rather pay rent when you can own a home? Seriously.. why pay a white man (or anyone for that matter) 1k or more a month for rent when you can pay a lender 1k a month for a home that you own? And God who puts down 30% or more for a home loan if they don’t have that money to spend? :o You better believe that that person has horrible credit and will have a higher risk of foreclosure… no loan officer (unless it’s a predatory lender) is going to come to you and tell you that you need to put 30% down into a home unless your credit score is under 580 or you have no credit at all…then you’ll have a high risk loan.. which in all probability with be a 3/2 arm mortgage that you’d refinance after 3 yrs… just so you know.. a lender is NOT going to allow a person to put 60% of their income into a home loan.. that’s just ridiculous..

And to be quite honest.. I’m tired of seeing my brothas and sistas rolling around in these expensive ass cars without a garage that they own to put it in..

see here’s where your statement is flawed.. the more money that a person puts into a loan the more equity they’re building.. meaning that’s more money that can be cashed out for a re-finance.. that’s wealth building right there.. a Home is an investment and the possibilities are endless once you buy… I’m not putting my money into “fiscal power, stocks, bonds” etc if I don’t own a home.. that’s silly.. as wishy-washy as the market is.. there are no guarantees unless you’re in a locked rate…

Money is power.. the reason that we have no power as a black community is because so many of us are broke… it’s just that simple.. the people that hold the keys are the same people with money.. it’s one thing to sit down and talk about doing something but without the money to do so it’s nothing more than a conversation…

You’re saying all of these things against “making money” yet you’re choosing one of the most glamorous professions in American society… I’m sure it isn’t just to save the world and feed the hungry people.. there are other ways that are a lot cheaper than taking out loans for a JD..matter of fact.. since we’re having this conversation about wealth- why take out a $60- $140k loan for an education that will NOT guarantee you a job once you graduate??? Hell don’t go law school keep doing what you’re doing to get ahead…


There are many other ways   that you can  help people without all of the glam and glory of a JD.. americorp  or teaching for example..but I digress.











Let me jump in on this one.

I have to disagree on the whole American dream/buy a house theory. I’m against buying homes to “build wealth,” as far as helping black people goes. I think the discussion so far has been talking about the wrong type of wealth, (i.e. monetary) which doesn’t necessarily follow from buying a home btw.

We should be trying to build political capital rather than anything fiscal. You see, people always think that money is power, but it’s just the opposite, power is money (you have to understand the linguistic properties of identity to understand that the statement I just made isn’t the same), but let me explain what I’m saying. It doesn’t matter where you live, or if you own that residence or not, what matters is how you live. Being stuck under a burdensome mortgage for 20-30+ years is not the way to go.  However, owning a solid stock portfolio is, having the mobility to get up and leave a particular political district or economy is as well. 

Just think if black people instead of putting 30 to sometimes 60/80% of their income into buying a house were to invest that money into something that helps us all. Like black businesses, black banks…Africa!

Of course there are exceptions, but buying a home is so secondary.

Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: official2008 on May 13, 2005, 01:11:43 PM
No. I don't feel like it. Also, I'm not smart enough to defend my view. I just like to reject topics without baacking it up with anything. :-\


official - what are you doing in the UK?

RBG: working...for some international law firms


HBCU: hell yeah i'm sincere, please explain it to me how i'm wrong. 






that's what i thought.


but i'll argue my self on this one...





counterpoint: but tim, home ownership is great, for the following four reasons. people can pass the wealth down from generation to generation. it's all about the equity, it's basically like your saving your money instead of throwing ot away on rent, and you can take a loan out based on it. why pay rent when you could be spending the same money to buy a home...that's yours. and lastly, the home may appreciate, in which case you make a profit. top that!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: HBCU.EDU on May 13, 2005, 01:13:41 PM
See. I told you. She is better than me.  :P
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Statistic on May 13, 2005, 01:15:42 PM
why did you use your government name, official?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 13, 2005, 01:16:12 PM
u are silly.. Mr stock brokerman.. i think you should add your two cents..

See. I told you. She is better than me.  :P
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on May 13, 2005, 01:17:24 PM
See. I told you. She is better than me.  :P
:D

good post Blk_Reign, I was about to put together a post myself, but it's no longer needed.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on May 13, 2005, 01:33:11 PM
orright I couldn't help it, real quick:

Plus, if you want to make a comparison between home ownership and financial instrument ownership (stocks-bonds), you can.  Home ownership is really a highly leveraged investment, where one can take control of an asset worth, for example, 250K for an initial investment of 5K.  It's really the equivalent of issuing a collateralized callable bond (with the call being the option to prepay, and the collateral being the home itself).
<HBCU will appreciate this>
Not to make this too involved, but basically home ownership is no different from a strategic financial investment in the strictest form ( a la stock/bond investing).
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: official2008 on May 13, 2005, 01:38:58 PM
I prefer my government name RBG.


Official: listen man, just as homes appreciate they can depreciate, you can lose money too, ESPECIALLY if you don't know what you're doing. so that equity you built...gone. bottom line, i mortgage is a burden! why take on the stress, why live in one place for so long? why pay the interest, the maintenance fees?

rent! there are better things, more reliable things to put your money into. again, how you live is way more important than where you live...nobody cares if you own or rent. an example-- a hypothetical if you will.

scenario one: everyone owns their house, great. but that's it. they pay (to be fair 25% of their income on it) however, they're stuck... in a deteriorating home...under a stressful loan...in that city...in that school district...with those neighbours...with that obligation...with the maintenance costs...for 30-something years...basically, between a rock and a hard place.


scenario two: people rent, from the white man even. they pay 30% of their income on rent. yet they're free from the homeowners burdens. they have options. their quality of life is a bit better... and for that i say they're wealthy(er).

so, it all comes down to two things:

1. opportunity costs; like i said before, you have to ask yourself are the troubles and heartache that come with homeownership or rather buying a home... that you can't afford to buy upfront worth the benefits of renting that you give up?

2. political capital that amasses from putting your money in better-suited, more fruitful places. your child and their children will benefit more from a black bank, or, God forbid, real black communal wealth than they would with a house or piece of real estate.



Black: you'd be surprised what percentages of a person's income they pay on their mortgages. i

i didn’t elect to become a lawyer for its prestige, i feel i'll have a bigger voice if i'm an esquire than i would otherwise
 

Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Made4law on May 13, 2005, 01:41:32 PM
The more I read BLSD the more I want to invest in Mercedes, BMW, whoever the fuuck makes Hummer and Sean John...It's amazing that people find their way to this board just to ask or defend the stupidest point of views in the world...OP if you don't think owning a home is a good idea and the best investment you can make, great... please tell me when you are coming back to the U.S. and where you are going to be staying...I'll make it a point to have a cool crib for you to Rent (er...I mean pay my mortgage)...


Here is my point All wealthy people own property, All, not some All if they don't own now they did to get wealthy...If you think you are wealthy and don't own your own home you're not wealthy.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: official2008 on May 13, 2005, 01:45:17 PM
The more I read BLSD the more I want to invest in Mercedes, BMW, whoever the fuuck makes Hummer and Sean John...It's amazing that people find their way to this board just to ask or defend the stupidest point of views in the world...OP if you don't think owning a home is a good idea and the best investment you can make, great... please tell me when you are coming back to the U.S. and where you are going to be staying...I'll make it a point to have a cool crib for you to Rent (er...I mean pay my mortgage)...


Here is my point All wealthy people own property, All, not some All if they don't own now they did to get wealthy...If you think you are wealthy and don't own your own home you're not wealthy.


they were wealthy first.  ;)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on May 13, 2005, 01:50:06 PM
The more I read BLSD the more I want to invest in Mercedes, BMW, whoever the fuuck makes Hummer and Sean John...It's amazing that people find their way to this board just to ask or defend the stupidest point of views in the world...OP if you don't think owning a home is a good idea and the best investment you can make, great... please tell me when you are coming back to the U.S. and where you are going to be staying...I'll make it a point to have a cool crib for you to Rent (er...I mean pay my mortgage)...

Here is my point All wealthy people own property, All, not some All if they don't own now they did to get wealthy...If you think you are wealthy and don't own your own home you're not wealthy.

 :D
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Made4law on May 13, 2005, 01:51:48 PM
The more I read BLSD the more I want to invest in Mercedes, BMW, whoever the fuuck makes Hummer and Sean John...It's amazing that people find their way to this board just to ask or defend the stupidest point of views in the world...OP if you don't think owning a home is a good idea and the best investment you can make, great... please tell me when you are coming back to the U.S. and where you are going to be staying...I'll make it a point to have a cool crib for you to Rent (er...I mean pay my mortgage)...


Here is my point All wealthy people own property, All, not some All if they don't own now they did to get wealthy...If you think you are wealthy and don't own your own home you're not wealthy.


they were wealthy first.  ;)


I'm gonna say it again for the slow people...All rich people own their own home, All, All...  If I knew All rich people own fukking Monkeys...I'd buy a monkey and pimp her out...but they don't, so I'm gonna stick to the one thing that all wealthy people have...A house/real estate...
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: official2008 on May 13, 2005, 01:53:23 PM
The more I read BLSD the more I want to invest in Mercedes, BMW, whoever the fuuck makes Hummer and Sean John...It's amazing that people find their way to this board just to ask or defend the stupidest point of views in the world...OP if you don't think owning a home is a good idea and the best investment you can make, great... please tell me when you are coming back to the U.S. and where you are going to be staying...I'll make it a point to have a cool crib for you to Rent (er...I mean pay my mortgage)...

Here is my point All wealthy people own property, All, not some All if they don't own now they did to get wealthy...If you think you are wealthy and don't own your own home you're not wealthy.

 :D




who's going to pay the mortgage on the place you're renting to me?


if you can answer that one, then i'll concede...i'm wrong.  ::)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Made4law on May 13, 2005, 01:56:49 PM
The more I read BLSD the more I want to invest in Mercedes, BMW, whoever the fuuck makes Hummer and Sean John...It's amazing that people find their way to this board just to ask or defend the stupidest point of views in the world...OP if you don't think owning a home is a good idea and the best investment you can make, great... please tell me when you are coming back to the U.S. and where you are going to be staying...I'll make it a point to have a cool crib for you to Rent (er...I mean pay my mortgage)...

Here is my point All wealthy people own property, All, not some All if they don't own now they did to get wealthy...If you think you are wealthy and don't own your own home you're not wealthy.

 :D




who's going to pay the mortgage on the place you're renting to me?


if you can answer that one, then i'll concede...i'm wrong.  ::)

You are plus I'm gonna make a profit each month in addition to your rent money..
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 13, 2005, 01:57:19 PM
buy a new house..sell that female dog in three yrs for a profit..and move on.. if you don't see how that can be a good investment then i don't know what to tell you..

I don’t see how you’re saying a person’s quality of life can be better in an apt that they’re renting.. you have NO control on where you live.. the only thing that you control is how you decorate your apt.. whenever there are problems you’ll have to wait on the maintenance company to fix your *&^%.. and most of the time those people are lazy..no matter what kind of area you’re living in..

Then you have to deal with the noise of other tenants.. and that’s a whole notha issue..

Hmm.. the people who are paying a higher percentage of their income for a home aren’t that intelligent… the majority of the time you will find yourself spending less money for a mortgage than you will for an apt unless you’re living in a cheap or crime ridden area like certain parts of SE DC…

What are the troubles and heartaches that come with homeownership? I’m telling you right now as I am sitting in my kitchen typing this post… I’m looking out of the window at my beautiful backyard.. I’m quite happy.. whereas this time last yr as I was paying rent for my apt I was pissed  off thinking about how I’d never benefit from the money that I was spending  on the first of every month…
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: HBCU.EDU on May 13, 2005, 01:58:08 PM
"who's going to pay the mortgage on the place you're renting to me?" Yeah. Right.  ::)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 13, 2005, 01:59:15 PM
YOU are paying the mortgage on the place that someone is renting to you... as well as putting money in that owner's pocket




who's going to pay the mortgage on the place you're renting to me?


if you can answer that one, then i'll concede...i'm wrong.  ::)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Made4law on May 13, 2005, 02:02:58 PM
HBC is Sean John public yet...How much is a share in spinning rims these days... ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: drowles on May 13, 2005, 02:12:35 PM
I prefer my government name RBG.


Official: listen man, just as homes appreciate they can depreciate, you can lose money too, ESPECIALLY if you don't know what you're doing. so that equity you built...gone. bottom line, i mortgage is a burden! why take on the stress, why live in one place for so long? why pay the interest, the maintenance fees?

rent! there are better things, more reliable things to put your money into. again, how you live is way more important than where you live...nobody cares if you own or rent. an example-- a hypothetical if you will.

scenario one: everyone owns their house, great. but that's it. they pay (to be fair 25% of their income on it) however, they're stuck... in a deteriorating home...under a stressful loan...in that city...in that school district...with those neighbours...with that obligation...with the maintenance costs...for 30-something years...basically, between a rock and a hard place.


scenario two: people rent, from the white man even. they pay 30% of their income on rent. yet they're free from the homeowners burdens. they have options. their quality of life is a bit better... and for that i say they're wealthy(er).

so, it all comes down to two things:

1. opportunity costs; like i said before, you have to ask yourself are the troubles and heartache that come with homeownership or rather buying a home... that you can't afford to buy upfront worth the benefits of renting that you give up?

2. political capital that amasses from putting your money in better-suited, more fruitful places. your child and their children will benefit more from a black bank, or, God forbid, real black communal wealth than they would with a house or piece of real estate.



Black: you'd be surprised what percentages of a person's income they pay on their mortgages. i

i didn’t elect to become a lawyer for its prestige, i feel i'll have a bigger voice if i'm an esquire than i would otherwise
 



Please tell me you are kidding me... Your philosophy is so far off base its not even worth attempting to explain how wrong you are.. as others have done successfully.. I just cant believe you are serious!?!?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Made4law on May 13, 2005, 02:22:25 PM
Speaking of Spinning Rims I just saw a guy rolling in a fukking 70something Nova with Spinners and not the cheap ones the real good ones...he looked like a DAmn fool.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Statistic on May 13, 2005, 02:25:43 PM
I have a question and since I am the most influential poster on this damn board, I want you people to pay attention to what I have to say.

How risky is it to start your own practice and what do you think about it in general? Would you guys ever do it? Thanks in advance for the copious suppy of thoughtful responses that will undoubtedly ensue.  :)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 13, 2005, 02:41:10 PM
I'm going to attend a meeting for solo practitioners fairly soon..so I'll get back to you on that... HBC and I will probably start our own practice after he finishes law school.. unless i kick it off before then...
   



I have a question and since I am the most influential poster on this damn board, I want you people to pay attention to what I have to say.

How risky is it to start your own practice and what do you think about it in general? Would you guys ever do it? Thanks in advance for the copious suppy of thoughtful responses that will undoubtedly ensue.  :)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 13, 2005, 02:44:20 PM
BP,
did you bring that file?

reign/HBCU
what kind of practice?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 13, 2005, 02:47:46 PM

yet to be determined



reign/HBCU
what kind of practice?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Made4law on May 13, 2005, 02:58:20 PM
I have a question and since I am the most influential poster on this damn board, I want you people to pay attention to what I have to say.

How risky is it to start your own practice and what do you think about it in general? Would you guys ever do it? Thanks in advance for the copious suppy of thoughtful responses that will undoubtedly ensue.  :)

That's my exact plan to start my own business, we as a people must strive to be independant and start making a way for ourselves...I may work in a firm for a few years to get experience but if I am going to slave away working I'm gonna do it for myself and to build a legacy.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on May 13, 2005, 03:34:43 PM
BP,
did you bring that file?

reign/HBCU
what kind of practice?

You dun know I forgot chile <in a Jamaican accent for effect>  :-[

pm me your email and I'll send it tonight.  Matter of fact, I'll try to put it in a yahoo briefcase so everyone can get access.  Hit me up.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _____ on May 13, 2005, 05:39:41 PM
Official: listen man, just as homes appreciate they can depreciate, you can lose money too, ESPECIALLY if you don't know what you're doing. so that equity you built...gone. bottom line, i mortgage is a burden! why take on the stress, why live in one place for so long? why pay the interest, the maintenance fees?

rent! there are better things, more reliable things to put your money into. again, how you live is way more important than where you live...nobody cares if you own or rent. an example-- a hypothetical if you will.

scenario one: everyone owns their house, great. but that's it. they pay (to be fair 25% of their income on it) however, they're stuck... in a deteriorating home...under a stressful loan...in that city...in that school district...with those neighbours...with that obligation...with the maintenance costs...for 30-something years...basically, between a rock and a hard place.


scenario two: people rent, from the white man even. they pay 30% of their income on rent. yet they're free from the homeowners burdens. they have options. their quality of life is a bit better... and for that i say they're wealthy(er).

so, it all comes down to two things:

1. opportunity costs; like i said before, you have to ask yourself are the troubles and heartache that come with homeownership or rather buying a home... that you can't afford to buy upfront worth the benefits of renting that you give up?

2. political capital that amasses from putting your money in better-suited, more fruitful places. your child and their children will benefit more from a black bank, or, God forbid, real black communal wealth than they would with a house or piece of real estate.



You are assuming that if a home depriciates, the lower sale will result in a total loss of equity (in this case, reasonably defined as money paid for the use of a place to live during the time that one lives there).  This may be true in some cases.  The only problem is that renters lose 100% of their equity (money paid for use of a place to live) in 100% of the cases.

No matter what, people have to pay for a place to live, and no matter what, renters will never get any of that money back.  Homeowners may--and often do.

Furthermore, owning a home outright is extremly freeing.  A home loan is paid off after 30 years in most cases, meaning that you will have more income available for other things as you get older.  Renters never stop paying rent.

As such, there are basically two options:

(1) pay a slightly lower amount every month of every year until the day you die (sometimes 60+ years--and recognizing that rents do rise over time).  or

(2) Pay a slightly higher, but generally consistent, amount every month for 30 years (slightly higher due to maintenence and property taxes), and then pay a reduced rate (ONLY maintenence and property taxes) from then on until the day you die.

Option 2 is cheaper in the long run AND provides (emotional) stability to those who live there--in addition to leaving a legacy for those who follow.

I believe that it is that legacy of stability that will improve people's lives.  Where there is stability, real choices can be made. People can act, not react.  I believe that that kind of stability will make all the difference in improving lives--eductationally, monetarily, politically. 

Stability means you're in control of your own life, and that is the true beginning of freedom--black or otherwise.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 14, 2005, 08:09:53 AM
well said anodduck.. are u looking to buy a home? i don't discriminate ;) ;D


seriously though.. buying a home makes more sense..why waste some money on something that will NEVER be yours.. might as well rent a car for the rest of your life while you're at it too
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: HBCU.EDU on May 14, 2005, 08:23:23 AM
Hmm. I'll send you a PM today!


Less than half of blacks own homes compared to more than three-fourths of whites.



With that said.. I’m here to do whatever I can to help you guys in your quest for wealth-building and home ownership.. if you are considering purchasing a home.. I can help you get an excellent deal anywhere in this country… a very dear friend of mine is an African American loan officer  and she works with all types of credit.. finds excellent deals in spite of student loans.. so if you’re interested.. feel free to PM me for further details…
Onward and Upward in the struggle!

Edit: As a barred attorney I can also help with some of the seller consession (ie builder/seller contracts)

Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: official2008 on May 14, 2005, 01:27:48 PM
I couldn’t get back onto the site after my last post yesterday, so let me finish what I started…


Made: just as I thought, you couldn’t answer my question. I’m sure you don’t even believe that *&^%. You’re going to make a profit off my one rent…enough to pay the mortgage on the place, and make a profit. Be for real.


Black: we’re not talking about the same thing. First, you’re not always going to make a profit on your house (that’s a fantasy). furthermore, if you’re buying homes every three years, then you don’t really *own* that female dog do you? The bank has a pretty serious lien on the mofo (you’re just in debt, with an investment that’s in a market that you have NO control over, lol). Second, if you’re buying and selling houses every three years, then you have business or something similar to it. Most people, and the house-buying that I’m against is the house-buying where you have a 20-something year loan, that you’re committed to and responsible for. What if you lose your job?

You do have control when you’re renting; you can do pretty much the same things you can do in places that you own. More really, you have options; if you want a bigger place, more rooms, a view…move. I can dispute your whole apartment theory/testimony with a single sentence: you can rent houses as well.

As far as me putting money in some homeowner’s pocket, well, that’s just not true. I’m putting money in the bank account of some businessman/woman or company who has several investments/properties, which allows them to make a profit off volume. The average homeowner that rents a room or a spare house is doing so only to ease the costs associated with multiple mortgages. And, if that homeowner, actually *owns* that second house (meaning the *&^% is paid for), and then they were already wealthy, in which case I endorse buying of real estate.


Drowles: say something meaningful.


I’ll end with an analogy similar to Blk_Rein’s silly car comment.

Take a business for instance, only the wealthy business actually build or own their offices. They rent, some lease…the point is, the business, its owners, and directors don’t try to by the office. They get their money elsewhere. Being bogged down with lengthy contracts and stringent obligations is counterproductive.

Stop trying to find little angles to get at my argument; you miss the point that way. What I’m saying is that if you’re wealthy and can afford it, then there’s nothing wrong with investing in real estate…if it’s a business for you, and you can make a little money off it on the side (which most people can’t or won’t if they try) they good. BUT, for the masses, for most people buying one home – over 30 years – is definitely not worth it.   
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Intuition on May 14, 2005, 01:50:02 PM
official...

1. The possibility of losing your job impacts renters equally, if not more profoundly. If you lose your job, how will you pay the rent? It probably is actually worse for a renter because they have no equity to fall back on, whereas even someone with a mortgage has already been paying off that mortgage (and hopefully paying extra month into the principal, depending on rates) meaning they can sell the house or even use that equity to take out a loan to get them through until they find a new job (if they don't simply have savings).

2. I agree about renting one room of a house. That rent won't show a profit when compared to the mortgage.

3. I think there is a broader point that has yet to be addressed. When you rent, you are building the wealth of someone else. Of course, when you buy, you are building the wealth of a bank/lender and maybe the previous homeowner. But the point is that you are also building up your own equity at the same time. With housing being such a large portion of living expenses (probably the largest single expenditure each month), doesn't it make sense to try to use some of that large expenditure to build equity for yourself?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: official2008 on May 14, 2005, 02:04:23 PM
official...

1. The possibility of losing your job impacts renters equally, if not more profoundly. If you lose your job, how will you pay the rent? It probably is actually worse for a renter because they have no equity to fall back on, whereas even someone with a mortgage has already been paying off that mortgage (and hopefully paying extra month into the principal, depending on rates) meaning they can sell the house or even use that equity to take out a loan to get them through until they find a new job (if they don't simply have savings).

2. I agree about renting one room of a house. That rent won't show a profit when compared to the mortgage.

3. I think there is a broader point that has yet to be addressed. When you rent, you are building the wealth of someone else. Of course, when you buy, you are building the wealth of a bank/lender and maybe the previous homeowner. But the point is that you are also building up your own equity at the same time. With housing being such a large portion of living expenses (probably the largest single expenditure each month), doesn't it make sense to try to use some of that large expenditure to build equity for yourself?


good point about the job, but you get out of your contract. you see, if you lose your job under a mortgage, you're right you can take out a loan...but that's just more debt. debt takes years off lives; it's a constant stress. however, if you lose your job while renting, you can find a cheaper place, which works out better if you can't a as high-paying job as you had before.

mobility is a comidity that has been seriously undervalued in this discussion. we're talking about people who stay in the same house for 30+ years because they have to. i know some people like that, but i think most people would like the option to move around see different parts of the world if they could.

i hear so many people who after 30+ years say that they regret it.


i did neglet the equitly issue, and Anodduck made a good summary in his post. equity, sure, ussually won't be a total loss in a house that's sold...even those sold for a loss. but i think, again, that the benifits of lower costs associated with your housing can make up for that equity if you do the right things with it.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Intuition on May 14, 2005, 02:16:55 PM
Quote
i hear so many people who after 30+ years say that they regret it.

I can believe this. I think it's why so many people say they want to travel when they retire. I definitely agree that mobility is a great positive of renting. Sometimes it can take years to sell a house, depending on the market.

Going back to an earlier point you made about building your wealth through other means (other investments, entrepreneurship, etc.)...I agree that there are many ways to build wealth and it's a good idea to be diverse across the board (not just have a diverse portfolio) while you're building wealth.

One thing I wonder about is the average difference between mortgage payments and rent in comparable areas. If you can rent for X less than mortgage payments and that difference will allow you to build wealth equal to or even greater than the equity you'd build through homeownership, then I think there would be a solid argument for renting. Obviously this will depend on the market, interest rates, etc. I honestly don't have much of an idea how these numbers will work out for most areas.

I agree that long term debt can lead to stress, but I think a case can be made that if you budget well, you will feel little more stress than someone who has to pay the rent every 30 days.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: angmill08 on May 14, 2005, 09:39:41 PM
One thing I wonder about is the average difference between mortgage payments and rent in comparable areas. If you can rent for X less than mortgage payments and that difference will allow you to build wealth equal to or even greater than the equity you'd build through homeownership, then I think there would be a solid argument for renting.

 This is a crucial point. The only way a renter is fully paying the landlord's mortgage is if the monthly rent paid is more than the monthly mortgage payment. I'm going to rent my house out soon, and the rent will be $100/mo more than the mortgage. So as  long as I have a tenant in the house, they will be paying my mortgage. And the tenant cannot leave at any time -- most leases obligate the tenant to pay rent every month, even if they vacate the rental unit, until a replacement tenant is found or until the lease period ends.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: HBCU.EDU on May 15, 2005, 02:14:49 PM
I'll work in your firm as a summer associate until I get my *&^%. ;)


I'm going to attend a meeting for solo practitioners fairly soon..so I'll get back to you on that... HBC and I will probably start our own practice after he finishes law school.. unless i kick it off before then...
   



I have a question and since I am the most influential poster on this damn board, I want you people to pay attention to what I have to say.

How risky is it to start your own practice and what do you think about it in general? Would you guys ever do it? Thanks in advance for the copious suppy of thoughtful responses that will undoubtedly ensue.  :)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: MsJay9 on May 16, 2005, 11:26:05 AM
I am sitting here reading this thread and its a little disheartning.  I can not understand why anyone would argue that renting is better than buying.  I will assume that you grew up in a family where everyone was renting and not owning.  An apartment that you rent is not HOME its just where you are staying for now.  You are very limited in what you can do to it b/c you have rules to follow b/c of the owner.  Most of the time when you purchase a home you look at an area that you want to stay in and grow.  Personally I'm looking for a home that I can afford right now, as my first one not somewhere I'm going to live for the next 30years.  I'll probably get a two-family to cover majority of the mortgage through the tenant who rents the other portion and if I go to ls outside of my city then I can rent out the second portion and the home can pay for itself and probably make enough to cover minor things that may happen. 

Everyone who lives somewhere and pays money to be there is paying a mortgage.  The only difference is that the people who are renting are paying someone elses.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 16, 2005, 11:41:40 AM
well said..and if a renter isn't paying for a mortgage to the property that they're staying in.. they are at the very least paying the property taxes


I am sitting here reading this thread and its a little disheartning.  I can not understand why anyone would argue that renting is better than buying.  I will assume that you grew up in a family where everyone was renting and not owning.  An apartment that you rent is not HOME its just where you are staying for now.  You are very limited in what you can do to it b/c you have rules to follow b/c of the owner.  Most of the time when you purchase a home you look at an area that you want to stay in and grow.  Personally I'm looking for a home that I can afford right now, as my first one not somewhere I'm going to live for the next 30years.  I'll probably get a two-family to cover majority of the mortgage through the tenant who rents the other portion and if I go to ls outside of my city then I can rent out the second portion and the home can pay for itself and probably make enough to cover minor things that may happen. 

Everyone who lives somewhere and pays money to be there is paying a mortgage.  The only difference is that the people who are renting are paying someone elses.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: drowles on May 16, 2005, 12:21:02 PM
official...

1. The possibility of losing your job impacts renters equally, if not more profoundly. If you lose your job, how will you pay the rent? It probably is actually worse for a renter because they have no equity to fall back on, whereas even someone with a mortgage has already been paying off that mortgage (and hopefully paying extra month into the principal, depending on rates) meaning they can sell the house or even use that equity to take out a loan to get them through until they find a new job (if they don't simply have savings).

2. I agree about renting one room of a house. That rent won't show a profit when compared to the mortgage.

3. I think there is a broader point that has yet to be addressed. When you rent, you are building the wealth of someone else. Of course, when you buy, you are building the wealth of a bank/lender and maybe the previous homeowner. But the point is that you are also building up your own equity at the same time. With housing being such a large portion of living expenses (probably the largest single expenditure each month), doesn't it make sense to try to use some of that large expenditure to build equity for yourself?


good point about the job, but you get out of your contract. you see, if you lose your job under a mortgage, you're right you can take out a loan...but that's just more debt. debt takes years off lives; it's a constant stress. however, if you lose your job while renting, you can find a cheaper place, which works out better if you can't a as high-paying job as you had before.

mobility is a comidity that has been seriously undervalued in this discussion. we're talking about people who stay in the same house for 30+ years because they have to. i know some people like that, but i think most people would like the option to move around see different parts of the world if they could.

i hear so many people who after 30+ years say that they regret it.


i did neglet the equitly issue, and Anodduck made a good summary in his post. equity, sure, ussually won't be a total loss in a house that's sold...even those sold for a loss. but i think, again, that the benifits of lower costs associated with your housing can make up for that equity if you do the right things with it.

I have come to the conclusion that your posts are serious..

SERIOUSLY RETARDED!!!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: official2008 on May 16, 2005, 01:21:08 PM
Msjay, you’re right, my family did rent… until they could afford to, and it was the right to, buy a home; we got three now.  ;)


Anyway, I can only assume that I presented the argument poorly, as it is not really as controversial as you make it out to be. Economists have been saying this for years.

It’s my fault though, i should have realized that I can’t discuss this with non-economists and closed-minded people without backing it up.


So, listen to the economics editor of the Economist Magazine, this Harvard economist, and another smart economist touch on what I failed to get across.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4624307&sourceCode=RSS


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4531732




I’m going to get some numbers for y’all too.

Be easy.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 16, 2005, 01:25:13 PM
Msjay, you’re right, my family did rent… until they could afford to, and it was the right to, buy a home; we got three now. ;)


Anyway, I can only assume that I presented the argument poorly, as it is not really as controversial as you make it out to be. Economists have been saying this for years.

It’s my fault though, i should have realized that I can’t discuss this with non-economists and closed-minded people without backing it up.


So, listen to the economics editor of the Economist Magazine, this Harvard economist, and another smart economist touch on what I failed to get across.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4624307&sourceCode=RSS


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4531732




I’m going to get some numbers for y’all too.

Be easy.


damn, why do half the people on this board have parents banking it like that?  idea for a poll, how many homes/properties do your parents own?   :-\
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on May 16, 2005, 01:42:57 PM
Msjay, you’re right, my family did rent… until they could afford to, and it was the right to, buy a home; we got three now.  ;)


Anyway, I can only assume that I presented the argument poorly, as it is not really as controversial as you make it out to be. Economists have been saying this for years.

It’s my fault though, i should have realized that I can’t discuss this with non-economists and closed-minded people without backing it up.


So, listen to the economics editor of the Economist Magazine, this Harvard economist, and another smart economist touch on what I failed to get across.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4624307&sourceCode=RSS


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4531732




I’m going to get some numbers for y’all too.

Be easy.

.

You posted a link from an economist backing up your claim, while ignoring the overwhelming economic data and analysis that hammers home the opposing view.  If a single viewpoint can be held out as proof against a mountain of conflicting evidence, then here’s a link to a scientific study outlining why global warming does not exist.  I guess that settles it...

http://www.marshall.org/article.php?id=149
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: official2008 on May 16, 2005, 01:48:44 PM
that's one way to do it; just discredit anything counter to your beliefs. you're never wrong that way...
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 16, 2005, 02:10:47 PM
Hold on Official.. you think we're closed minded because we don't agree with you? ???

I'm speaking from my experiences.. renting for 4 yrs.. owning for 1..

so since your family owns three homes now.. do they regret ownership? are they planning on going back to renting??
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: faith2005 on May 16, 2005, 02:23:18 PM
i hate to say it, but after reading this thread, i find it really hard to believe that a black man whose parents own three homes would be discouraging other young black people from buying a home. i am not planning to buy a home right now, but i have seen other people do it who are 35 and under, and none of them regret the decision. i mean its almost guaranteed that if you own a home and rent it out, the renters are paying the mortgage plus extra. and even if its in a neighborhood where the property values are falling, the rent might be low, but its still probably going to cover the mortgage plus some. i see it here in b-more, as the neighborhood changes, white people are buying the houses, sometimes its their second/third, but one landlord i met actually lives in florida and owns a home in baltimore broken up into apts. and with a 2 family, even if you don't rent out the other half, you can split it with family and pool your resources in terms of child-care/property maintenance and everything else. i think that book rich dad/poor dad talks alot about this issue. the man made millions off of home ownership and he didn't start off wealthy at all.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 16, 2005, 02:50:53 PM
yeah Faith..you know when he said that his parents owned 3 houses...I was dying :D.. then he said "we".. like his name was on the deed  :D

i can see it now..

official: mom/dad you know it's better to rent it gives you the security to live wherever you want and beat to your own drum

official's parents: *smack*

official: getting up off the floor but mom :'( :-\  check out this link on NPR it will substantiate my claim

official's parents: to his younger siblings don't listen to a damn thing your bro says >:(
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on May 16, 2005, 03:33:22 PM
yeah Faith..you know when he said that his parents owned 3 houses...I was dying :D.. then he said "we".. like his name was on the deed  :D

i can see it now..

official: mom/dad you know it's better to rent it gives you the security to live wherever you want and beat to your own drum

official's parents: *smack*

official: getting up off the floor but mom :'( :-\  check out this link on NPR it will substantiate my claim

official's parents: to his younger siblings don't listen to a damn thing your bro says >:(

 :D, I can see you've been hanging around HBCU;)  haha, I hope official gets the irony of his position.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Intuition on May 16, 2005, 03:38:33 PM
yeah Faith..you know when he said that his parents owned 3 houses...I was dying :D.. then he said "we".. like his name was on the deed  :D

i can see it now..

official: mom/dad you know it's better to rent it gives you the security to live wherever you want and beat to your own drum

official's parents: *smack*

official: getting up off the floor but mom :'( :-\  check out this link on NPR it will substantiate my claim

You forgot...offical's parents: *smack* (for the backtalk)

official's parents: to his younger siblings don't listen to a damn thing your bro says >:(

ROFL
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Statistic on May 16, 2005, 03:39:24 PM
yo - Official - I have to ask: Is that a gold chain?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Muse on May 16, 2005, 03:51:26 PM
I think it is....  ;)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: HBCU.EDU on May 16, 2005, 03:53:47 PM
yo - Official - I have to ask: Is that a gold chain?

Dayum...it is a gold chain man. :D
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 16, 2005, 04:14:39 PM
that explains it all :D


yo - Official - I have to ask: Is that a gold chain?

Dayum...it is a gold chain man. :D
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on May 16, 2005, 07:50:27 PM
that explains it all :D


yo - Official - I have to ask: Is that a gold chain?

Dayum...it is a gold chain man. :D

Again you guys are showing your closed-mindedness.  Official is very concerned with mobility.  He just figured why invest in stocks of companies that have fixed locations, when he could  have the ultimate mobile investment.  So to you guys it's a gold chain, to Official it's a well constructed investment strategy in gold commodities ;)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Statistic on May 16, 2005, 08:11:38 PM
Again you guys are showing your closed-mindedness.  Official is very concerned with mobility.  He just figured why invest in stocks of companies that have fixed locations, when he could  have the ultimate mobile investment.  So to you guys it's a gold chain, to Official it's a well constructed investment strategy in gold commodities ;)

please... he looks like one of those low budget rappers on BET's Uncut.

I know Fat Joe wants you to lean back, but damn...
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: MsJay9 on May 17, 2005, 07:47:49 AM
Msjay, you’re right, my family did rent… until they could afford to, and it was the right to, buy a home; we got three now.  ;)


Anyway, I can only assume that I presented the argument poorly, as it is not really as controversial as you make it out to be. Economists have been saying this for years.

It’s my fault though, i should have realized that I can’t discuss this with non-economists and closed-minded people without backing it up.


So, listen to the economics editor of the Economist Magazine, this Harvard economist, and another smart economist touch on what I failed to get across.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4624307&sourceCode=RSS


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4531732




I’m going to get some numbers for y’all too.

Be easy.


Wow....how did I make it out to be controversial....I was just commenting on your line of thinking. I think you are the one who seems closed minded.  I consider myself open minded, but even if I didn't I think that closing off the ideal of owning a home would definantly be closed minded.  I find it a little hard to believe that anyone who comes from a family that owns 3 homes would be advocating for renting.  If your parents own three who's living in the other two...Are they renters? B/c if they are and you parents are using that as investment property then they are making a profit from the renters just like your landlord is profitting from you paying rent.  :-\

But don't let me stop you from wanting to rent, I'm going to need people who think just like you to live in the units that I will rent.  This way the renters can pay off my properties mortgages at a faster rate and make them all profit properties.  :)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 17, 2005, 07:57:39 AM
Exactly MsJay... exactly ;)





But don't let me stop you from wanting to rent, I'm going to need people who think just like you to live in the units that I will rent.  This way the renters can pay off my properties mortgages at a faster rate and make them all profit properties.  :)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: MsJay9 on May 17, 2005, 07:59:30 AM
Exactly MsJay... exactly ;)





But don't let me stop you from wanting to rent, I'm going to need people who think just like you to live in the units that I will rent.  This way the renters can pay off my properties mortgages at a faster rate and make them all profit properties.  :)

 :D  Ok I just read your avatar and I am over here ROFLMAO....I almost spit out my water!  :D
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 17, 2005, 08:03:44 AM
 :D :D :D ;D ;)




 :D  Ok I just read your avatar and I am over here ROFLMAO....I almost spit out my water!  :D
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on May 17, 2005, 08:22:26 AM
You guys...haha
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: smujd2007 on May 17, 2005, 09:18:23 AM
Ya'll are crazy.

Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Statistic on May 17, 2005, 09:22:18 AM
"lean back, lean back, Le-oh sh!t I fell over"
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: official2008 on May 17, 2005, 11:19:23 AM
Ok, the picture, it’s 8 years old. So yeah, I did wear a silver chain and my hat backwards in high school…sue me.

And on that same topic, you call me a “gold chain man,” I can’t say I know what that is, but I’m assuming you’re claiming me to be some type of thug or flashy, materialistic person; that’s not the case. But yet you stereotype me, and in next couple of day you’re going to be on talking about how white people always judging us or something along those lines…check that.

Anyway, I’m done playing devil’s advocate. I think I put up a good one, but it’s obvious you’re not getting what I’m saying, plus it’s getting personal, and i'm not on often enough to defend myself. My argument never was don’t buy houses. I said, from the beginning, that it was secondary…get money first, get your business first, then when you’re in a better position, buy a house.

It’s a stifling investment; I’m saying, initially, it’s better to rent. I just think, if my mother didn’t get her magazine off the ground, cause she decided to stay on a journalist’s salary, to pay a mortgage.   
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Statistic on May 17, 2005, 11:22:57 AM
I hope you know I was just teasing...
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 17, 2005, 11:26:06 AM
Ok, the picture, it’s 8 years old. So yeah, I did wear a silver chain and my hat backwards in high school…sue me.

And on that same topic, you call me a “gold chain man,” I can’t say I know what that is, but I’m assuming you’re claiming me to be some type of thug or flashy, materialistic person; that’s not the case. But yet you stereotype me, and in next couple of day you’re going to be on talking about how white people always judging us or something along those lines…check that.

Anyway, I’m done playing devil’s advocate. I think I put up a good one, but it’s obvious you’re not getting what I’m saying, plus it’s getting personal, and i'm not on often enough to defend myself. My argument never was don’t buy houses. I said, from the beginning, that it was secondary…get money first, get your business first, then when you’re in a better position, buy a house.

It’s a stifling investment; I’m saying, initially, it’s better to rent. I just think, if my mother didn’t get her magazine off the ground, cause she decided to stay on a journalist’s salary, to pay a mortgage.   



don't run away just cause many of us think your opinion is jacked up.  people are bound to disagree with you in life, get over it.  as for the clowning, we clown because we love.  sharpen your tools and get ready for the next round of the dozens.

speaking of which dang how old were you in that pic?  seriously you look like Michael Jordan's dad.  what's up?   ???
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Statistic on May 17, 2005, 11:28:14 AM
speaking of which dang how old were you in that pic?  seriously you look like Michael Jordan's dad.  what's up?   ???

rofl
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: official2008 on May 17, 2005, 11:28:34 AM
i ain't runnig away, but i'm done with this argument. and a lot of people don't think my argument was jacked up.

i was 15 at the oldest
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: drowles on May 17, 2005, 11:29:55 AM
Your argument WAS jacked up!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 17, 2005, 11:30:56 AM
i ain't runnig away, but i'm done with this argument. and a lot of people don't think my argument was jacked up.

i was 15 at the oldest

homie, put a new picture up.  you are making this too easy.  I like a fair fight.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: official2008 on May 17, 2005, 11:31:51 AM
you're jacked up. and you still haven't said anything useful.


what's wrong with my picture ???
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Statistic on May 17, 2005, 11:32:24 AM
i ain't runnig away, but i'm done with this argument. and a lot of people don't think my argument was jacked up.

i was 15 at the oldest


Dude - you look like Ricky Henderson.

(http://www.2walls.com/Images/commentary_pics/Sports/ricky_henderson01.jpg)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Statistic on May 17, 2005, 11:34:17 AM
you're jacked up. and you still haven't said anything useful.


what's wrong with my picture ???

You look like you sell meat door to door. That's what's wrong.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: official2008 on May 17, 2005, 11:37:03 AM
you're jacked up. and you still haven't said anything useful.


what's wrong with my picture ???

You look like you sell meat door to door. That's what's wrong.


you would know too RBG, i'm sure you be buying those meats...when the last time you seen the outside?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Statistic on May 17, 2005, 11:39:52 AM
you're jacked up. and you still haven't said anything useful.


what's wrong with my picture ???

You look like you sell meat door to door. That's what's wrong.


you would know too RBG, i'm sure you be buying those meats...when the last time you seen the outside?

when I opened the door for the cable guy. I didn't open it for you though; last time I bought steaks from your ass they were as flimsy as your "don't buy, rent" argument.  :D
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 17, 2005, 11:40:14 AM
Offical.. no one is stereotyping you for wearing a gold/silver chain ::) geez...

RBG and HBC make fun of everybody on the board at one point or another.. it's never serious..


Secondly.. what do u mean defend yourself? And people getting personal.. you mean to tell me that people have never joked around in your presence? Or tried to make you or anyone see how silly a statement may sound? Come on now it’s all in jest..

You can’t be that sensitive if you’re going to be an attorney..

---

The point that I'm making is this..  you argued that renting is a better option for most people.. I don’t understand why you don’t think it is a better investment to buy property before investing into stocks/bonds etc..

In the four yrs that I’ve rented an apt I found myself spending close to 80k  that will never be recouped.. and I’ll never benefit from that.. it wasn’t an investment.. it was a waste of money…and I wasn’t happy in that situation…

 if a person buys a home (even with a 40k salary for example) they would find themselves paying less than what they would to rent in all probability.. three yrs down the line they can refinance or rent their home out if they want to move into something bigger and better… that is the beginning of wealth building and financial security

you have to have somewhere to live right? Why not own it? Unless you’re going to live in a “bad” area or small city 9 out of 10 you’re going to spend at least 800-1k for a nice apt.. why not put that same money into a mortgage?




I have to disagree on the whole American dream/buy a house theory. I’m against buying homes to “build wealth,” as far as helping black people goes. I think the discussion so far has been talking about the wrong type of wealth, (i.e. monetary) which doesn’t necessarily follow from buying a home btw.


It just seems to me that you have this attitude that we’re ‘whitewashed’ because we want to buy homes.. because we want to get professional degrees (which u’re about to do I might add) but I don’t believe that anyone thinks they’re “better” than  any of our brothas and sistas that have chosen a different path than we have.. we are just trying to help them- those that want to be helped

Some  people may think you’re ‘white washed’ because you’re overseas working for an international law firm… most black folks aren’t even interested in that kind of thing (I say that because I've studied it for yrs..and i've heard that for yrs).. does that make you less than a black man? I think not.. you’ve already passed judgments and formed your opinions about us..and it really doesn’t make any sense
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: drowles on May 17, 2005, 11:47:55 AM
you're jacked up. and you still haven't said anything useful.


what's wrong with my picture ???

LOL.. great comeback.. you're a smart cookie.. aint you?

There is nothing useful to be said.. Its smarter to buy then rent for a plethora of reasons.. some of these reasons have already been mentioned.. its pretty simple.. Building credit and equity is smart.. throwing money down the toilet is not!  

You look very sexy in your picture..  
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: official2008 on May 17, 2005, 11:51:03 AM
Offical.. no one is stereotyping you for wearing a gold/silver chain ::) geez...

RBG and HBC make fun of everybody on the board at one point or another.. it's never serious..


Secondly.. what do u mean defend yourself? And people getting personal.. you mean to tell me that people have never joked around in your presence? Or tried to make you or anyone see how silly a statement may sound? Come on now it’s all in jest..

You can’t be that sensitive if you’re going to be an attorney..

---

The point that I'm making is this..  you argued that renting is a better option for most people.. I don’t understand why you don’t think it is a better investment to buy property before investing into stocks/bonds etc..

In the four yrs that I’ve rented an apt I found myself spending close to 80k  that will never be recouped.. and I’ll never benefit from that.. it wasn’t an investment.. it was a waste of money…and I wasn’t happy in that situation…

 if a person buys a home (even with a 40k salary for example) they would find themselves paying less than what they would to rent in all probability.. three yrs down the line they can refinance or rent their home out if they want to move into something bigger and better… that is the beginning of wealth building and financial security

you have to have somewhere to live right? Why not own it? Unless you’re going to live in a “bad” area or small city 9 out of 10 you’re going to spend at least 800-1k for a nice apt.. why not put that same money into a mortgage?




I have to disagree on the whole American dream/buy a house theory. I’m against buying homes to “build wealth,” as far as helping black people goes. I think the discussion so far has been talking about the wrong type of wealth, (i.e. monetary) which doesn’t necessarily follow from buying a home btw.


It just seems to me that you have this attitude that we’re ‘whitewashed’ because we want to buy homes.. because we want to get professional degrees (which u’re about to do I might add) but I don’t believe that anyone thinks they’re “better” than  any of our brothas and sistas that have chosen a different path than we have.. we are just trying to help them- those that want to be helped

Some  people may think you’re ‘white washed’ because you’re overseas working for an international law firm… most black folks aren’t even interested in that kind of thing (I say that because I've studied it for yrs..and i've heard that for yrs).. does that make you less than a black man? I think not.. you’ve already passed judgments and formed your opinions about us..and it really doesn’t make any sense

i'm done, Black, we just disagree.
i didn't pass judgement on anyone; i just like to argue.
the time difference makes it difficult for me to get on when y'all are on... i don't think i'm being sensitive, but when i come in to work, and i see this *&^% i can't respond to cause i'm too busy... i can't get back at y'all, with my argument or responses to the jabs.

Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 17, 2005, 11:51:55 AM
dude are you hitting on him?? :o :-\



You look very sexy in your picture..  
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 17, 2005, 11:54:22 AM
Official..there's nothing wrong with disagreeing... just know that you stand alone on this topic..

my statement about you and your judgments isn't only based on this thread.. it's based on things that you've said in various threads when we debate on here..it just seems that no matter what is said you always choose to disagree with EVERYONE
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: drowles on May 17, 2005, 11:54:55 AM
dude are you hitting on him?? :o :-\



You look very sexy in your picture.. 

Nah.. sarcasm.. Although he is kinda sexy, in a Ricky Henderson sort of way.. 

I just wanted to get his chin up a bit.. He seems a little defeated..

I wish he'd just admit that his argument is, at least a little bit, flawed (its obvious that he already know this)...

Oh well..
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Statistic on May 17, 2005, 11:58:35 AM
i'm done, Black, we just disagree.
i didn't pass judgement on anyone; i just like to argue.
the time difference makes it difficult for me to get on when y'all are on... i don't think i'm being sensitive, but when i come in to work, and i see this *&^% i can't respond to cause i'm too busy... i can't get back at y'all, with my argument or responses to the jabs.



ok. just know that you look like an educated tootsie roll.

But on the real, have you heard back from Cornell yet man? I thought you'd get in.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: official2008 on May 17, 2005, 12:01:21 PM
yeah, i'm on reserve
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Statistic on May 17, 2005, 12:02:43 PM
yeah, i'm on reserve

so do you know where you're going?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: official2008 on May 17, 2005, 12:04:16 PM
not at the moment... i should know next month
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Statistic on May 17, 2005, 12:04:46 PM
cool
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _____ on May 17, 2005, 12:26:58 PM
Regarding being whitewashed...

In a public policy class in college (Race and Ethnicity in America), we were talking about what it is to be black.  I am not black, but most of the people who were black said things along the same lines: Black people struggle with identity.  Who are we as a people?  What defines us, other than the color of our skin?

At which point it occurred to me: maybe much of the problem is that struggle has worked its way into the idea of what it means to be black. Maybe struggle has become the black identity for many people, which would explain why black people who are successful or want to be sucessful are ridiculed by their own people.  

I grew up in Oakland, so I've seen it first hand--black people who want to get somewhere in life face huge social pressure.  It's way more acceptable to be mediocre (or worse) than it is to be smart and successful.  If you're smart and get good grades, you're being white.  You dress nicely, you're being white.  

Since when are intelligence and class white-only traits???  

It's like, Black = Struggle.  No struggle = not black.  What's up with that???

I mean, the only people who rag on Condoleeza Rice or Colin Powell or Bryant Gumbel or Oprah are either (a) ridiculous white supremicists, or (b) black people who say they're not "black enough."

How awful is that?  The only people who ridicule rich, sucessful blacks are crazy white supremicists and other blacks themselves!

Personally, I think the whole ghetto rapper thing just perpetuates the cycle, because they get rich, but they don't get educated. Or maybe they do--but they don't let us know it, because that would ruin their market niche....

Regular people need to have more Bryant Gumbels and Condoleza Rices, or even just professors and teachers, as role models.  Why? Because it's a lot easier to get scholarships for college, even if it's just a regional one, and then get a good job (with which you can support your family and help them get an education and more wealth building skills etc in general) than it is to land a recording deal and suddenly be catapulted out of your struggle... Same thing with professional sports.  Those are long shots.

And while "huge media mogul" (i.e. Oprah) is a long shot as well, "local reporter" isn't really. And that's how Oprah started.  Music or professional sports are basically all or nothing: you either make it huge, or you make nothing.  There is very little in between...But a college education is virtually guaranteed to help both you and your family, even if it takes a generation or two... (My mother was the first and only person in her family to go to college (with loans up the wazoo), and now both my brother and I are continuing on (with only some loans as of right now, though law school will change that). I plan to see to it that my kids continue on too, and maybe they won't need any loans, y'know?...)

The way I see it, this whole "black = struggle" thing has got to stop.  What happened to Black and Proud?  Seems to me like the only acceptable phrase has become "Struggling and Proud."  And it really shouldn't be that way... "Successful and Proud" has a much better ring to it...
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 17, 2005, 12:42:23 PM
Well said annoduck  :)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on May 17, 2005, 12:49:59 PM
Well said annoduck  :)

second.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: smujd2007 on May 17, 2005, 04:51:58 PM
third.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: HBCU.EDU on May 17, 2005, 07:35:53 PM
4th here here!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: drowles on May 17, 2005, 08:42:38 PM
Regarding being whitewashed...

In a public policy class in college (Race and Ethnicity in America), we were talking about what it is to be black.  I am not black, but most of the people who were black said things along the same lines: Black people struggle with identity.  Who are we as a people?  What defines us, other than the color of our skin?

At which point it occurred to me: maybe much of the problem is that struggle has worked its way into the idea of what it means to be black. Maybe struggle has become the black identity for many people, which would explain why black people who are successful or want to be sucessful are ridiculed by their own people.  

I grew up in Oakland, so I've seen it first hand--black people who want to get somewhere in life face huge social pressure.  It's way more acceptable to be mediocre (or worse) than it is to be smart and successful.  If you're smart and get good grades, you're being white.  You dress nicely, you're being white.  

Since when are intelligence and class white-only traits???  

It's like, Black = Struggle.  No struggle = not black.  What's up with that???

I mean, the only people who rag on Condoleeza Rice or Colin Powell or Bryant Gumbel or Oprah are either (a) ridiculous white supremicists, or (b) black people who say they're not "black enough."

How awful is that?  The only people who ridicule rich, sucessful blacks are crazy white supremicists and other blacks themselves!

Personally, I think the whole ghetto rapper thing just perpetuates the cycle, because they get rich, but they don't get educated. Or maybe they do--but they don't let us know it, because that would ruin their market niche....

Regular people need to have more Bryant Gumbels and Condoleza Rices, or even just professors and teachers, as role models.  Why? Because it's a lot easier to get scholarships for college, even if it's just a regional one, and then get a good job (with which you can support your family and help them get an education and more wealth building skills etc in general) than it is to land a recording deal and suddenly be catapulted out of your struggle... Same thing with professional sports.  Those are long shots.

And while "huge media mogul" (i.e. Oprah) is a long shot as well, "local reporter" isn't really. And that's how Oprah started.  Music or professional sports are basically all or nothing: you either make it huge, or you make nothing.  There is very little in between...But a college education is virtually guaranteed to help both you and your family, even if it takes a generation or two... (My mother was the first and only person in her family to go to college (with loans up the wazoo), and now both my brother and I are continuing on (with only some loans as of right now, though law school will change that). I plan to see to it that my kids continue on too, and maybe they won't need any loans, y'know?...)

The way I see it, this whole "black = struggle" thing has got to stop.  What happened to Black and Proud?  Seems to me like the only acceptable phrase has become "Struggling and Proud."  And it really shouldn't be that way... "Successful and Proud" has a much better ring to it...


Personally, I think this is rubbish.. stereotyping.. and even offensive..
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Statistic on May 17, 2005, 08:51:51 PM
yes! a contrarian.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 18, 2005, 07:15:15 AM
how so? state your position?



Personally, I think this is rubbish.. stereotyping.. and even offensive..
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: drowles on May 18, 2005, 10:05:15 AM
Black = Struggle
No Black = no struggle..

That is such a sweeping and closed minded statement.  There are plenty of people that would find this comment ridiculous.. I mean, I understand the point of the post, I just dont think its fair (to anyone) to make statements that label an entire group..

 
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 18, 2005, 10:28:08 AM
you misconstrued what he's saying based on this post...

he's saying that in the Black community there are some Black people that equate a person's "blackness" to how much they struggle(d)

the lesser the struggle the less Black you are...

it's an unfortunate view to have but a lot of people really believe that *&^%..

Black = Struggle
No Black = no struggle..

That is such a sweeping and closed minded statement.  There are plenty of people that would find this comment ridiculous.. I mean, I understand the point of the post, I just dont think its fair (to anyone) to make statements that label an entire group..

 
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _____ on May 18, 2005, 10:43:26 AM
Black = Struggle
No Black = no struggle..

That is such a sweeping and closed minded statement.  There are plenty of people that would find this comment ridiculous.. I mean, I understand the point of the post, I just dont think its fair (to anyone) to make statements that label an entire group..

 


You have the second sentence backwards.  

It is not "no black = no struggle."  As you have it written, the phrase implies that if so long as you are not black (you are white, blue, green, whatever), you are not struggling.  This is patently false--struggle and suffering affect all people of all races and creeds (white, blue, green, whatever).  

What I DID say was that it would appear that if a black person is not struggling, then they are subject to criticism for not being black enough. (no struggle = no black)

I based these remarks on observations made in my own life.  I have seen how black people who are successful are often criticized by other black people for being whitewashed, or an oreo--basically, for not being black enough.  

But how can that be?  Their skin color hasn't changed--only their level of income and education.  And if we're to the point where it is socially unacceptable in some circles to be both black AND educated with a good income, we're at a sad, sad day...
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _____ on May 18, 2005, 10:44:55 AM
you misconstrued what he's saying based on this post...

he's saying that in the Black community there are some Black people that equate a person's "blackness" to how much they struggle(d)

the lesser the struggle the less Black you are...

it's an unfortunate view to have but a lot of people really believe that sh*t..

Black = Struggle
No Black = no struggle..

That is such a sweeping and closed minded statement.  There are plenty of people that would find this comment ridiculous.. I mean, I understand the point of the post, I just dont think its fair (to anyone) to make statements that label an entire group..

 

Blk_Reign--you got it exactly...
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: HBCU.EDU on May 18, 2005, 10:45:03 AM
This is how most blacks view our community. The vast majority of blacks view themselves as inferior. This is the truth. At the very center of black identity is self-hatred drowles. Most of us hate everything black: schools, and businesses. Most of all we hate who we are because we are not white. It’s some deep *&^%. Goes back to centuries of slavery. Slave culture was passed down from generation to generation. Think about it. Slavery didn’t end 1,000 years ago. Hell, my grandmother knew someone that was a slave. That’s some deep *&^% when you can talk to someone who actually knew a slave in this country.     

As far as black people are concerned being black has nothing to do with the color of your skin. That is why Bill Clinton was voted as one of the greatest African-Americans in this country, and Collin Powel is considered a sell out cracker. Negros are messed up man.
 


Black = Struggle
No Black = no struggle..

That is such a sweeping and closed minded statement.  There are plenty of people that would find this comment ridiculous.. I mean, I understand the point of the post, I just dont think its fair (to anyone) to make statements that label an entire group..

 
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: drowles on May 18, 2005, 11:55:23 AM
This is how most blacks view our community. The vast majority of blacks view themselves as inferior. This is the truth. At the very center of black identity is self-hatred drowles. Most of us hate everything black: schools, and businesses. Most of all we hate who we are because we are not white. It’s some deep sh*t. Goes back to centuries of slavery. Slave culture was passed down from generation to generation. Think about it. Slavery didn’t end 1,000 years ago. Hell, my grandmother knew someone that was a slave. That’s some deep sh*t when you can talk to someone who actually knew a slave in this country.     

As far as black people are concerned being black has nothing to do with the color of your skin. That is why Bill Clinton was voted as one of the greatest African-Americans in this country, and Collin Powel is considered a sell out cracker. Negros are messed up man.
 


Black = Struggle
No Black = no struggle..

That is such a sweeping and closed minded statement.  There are plenty of people that would find this comment ridiculous.. I mean, I understand the point of the post, I just dont think its fair (to anyone) to make statements that label an entire group..

 

Colin Powell is a sell out cracker because he didnt stand up to George W, Bill Clinton was voted a great president because he spent a lot of his time on the current plight of African Americans.  I know several blacks who do not "hate who they are".. Its simply ridiculous to think that because a few of your friends hold this view.. or even all the blacks in your community that this is a view of the black population throughout the nation.. I dont take issue when people say "some blacks".. or "i know people who".. but when you say "all" or even "most".. you are stereotyping.. and its shameful in my opinion..
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: HBCU.EDU on May 18, 2005, 12:00:05 PM
You don't know anything about black people. ALL blacks have been affected by slavery. ALL of us. You are removed from our situation and you only see our issues on the surface. You can’t dig the historical significance of our post.

This is how most blacks view our community. The vast majority of blacks view themselves as inferior. This is the truth. At the very center of black identity is self-hatred drowles. Most of us hate everything black: schools, and businesses. Most of all we hate who we are because we are not white. It’s some deep sh*t. Goes back to centuries of slavery. Slave culture was passed down from generation to generation. Think about it. Slavery didn’t end 1,000 years ago. Hell, my grandmother knew someone that was a slave. That’s some deep sh*t when you can talk to someone who actually knew a slave in this country.     

As far as black people are concerned being black has nothing to do with the color of your skin. That is why Bill Clinton was voted as one of the greatest African-Americans in this country, and Collin Powel is considered a sell out cracker. Negros are messed up man.
 


Black = Struggle
No Black = no struggle..

That is such a sweeping and closed minded statement.  There are plenty of people that would find this comment ridiculous.. I mean, I understand the point of the post, I just dont think its fair (to anyone) to make statements that label an entire group..

 

Colin Powell is a sell out cracker because he didnt stand up to George W, Bill Clinton was voted a great president because he spent a lot of his time on the current plight of African Americans.  I know several blacks who do not "hate who they are".. Its simply ridiculous to think that because a few of your friends hold this view.. or even all the blacks in your community that this is a view of the black population throughout the nation.. I dont take issue when people say "some blacks".. or "i know people who".. but when you say "all" or even "most".. you are stereotyping.. and its shameful in my opinion..
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Statistic on May 18, 2005, 12:01:49 PM
You don't know anything about black people. ALL blacks have been affected by slavery. ALL of us. You are removed from our situation and you only see our issues on the surface. You can’t dig the historical significance of our post.


I didn't dig this post at all.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: drowles on May 18, 2005, 12:03:33 PM
Black = Struggle
No Black = no struggle..

That is such a sweeping and closed minded statement.  There are plenty of people that would find this comment ridiculous.. I mean, I understand the point of the post, I just dont think its fair (to anyone) to make statements that label an entire group..

 


You have the second sentence backwards.  

It is not "no black = no struggle."  As you have it written, the phrase implies that if so long as you are not black (you are white, blue, green, whatever), you are not struggling.  This is patently false--struggle and suffering affect all people of all races and creeds (white, blue, green, whatever).  

What I DID say was that it would appear that if a black person is not struggling, then they are subject to criticism for not being black enough. (no struggle = no black)

I based these remarks on observations made in my own life.  I have seen how black people who are successful are often criticized by other black people for being whitewashed, or an oreo--basically, for not being black enough.  

But how can that be?  Their skin color hasn't changed--only their level of income and education.  And if we're to the point where it is socially unacceptable in some circles to be both black AND educated with a good income, we're at a sad, sad day...


You are correct.. I did misread the second sentence.. And, as you have said.. you have conjured your opinion of blacks being ashamed of themselves, or success, or whatever.. out of your own group of friends.. This does not represent the entire population!

As a matter of fact, when I was younger I too thought it wasnt cool to get good grades.. I went from being a straight A student to getting Ds and Fs.. I was subsequently sent to a private school that straightened me out REAL quick.. My point in revealing this is to prove that this issue is not so much racial as it is cultural.. No matter what your skin color, people are going to be jealous of any successes you may have.. And weak people, like myself at the time, tend to succomb to that pressure.. Its human nature..

Not sure if this is making sense or not.. The pressure to struggle or be cool may be greater amongst people in different groups.. but I dont think its fair to classify an ENTIRE group in this manner..
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Statistic on May 18, 2005, 12:05:06 PM
I say there was only one president in the 20th century that really actively tried to better the plight of African-Americans and that was LBJ. The rest clearly play second fiddle to him. RBG has spoken!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: HBCU.EDU on May 18, 2005, 12:05:38 PM
drowles- "Colin Powell is a sell out cracker" Colin Powell is a great African-American man. Don't you ever come into BLSD with this racist *&^%.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: drowles on May 18, 2005, 12:07:07 PM
You don't know anything about black people. ALL blacks have been affected by slavery. ALL of us. You are removed from our situation and you only see our issues on the surface. You can’t dig the historical significance of our post.

This is how most blacks view our community. The vast majority of blacks view themselves as inferior. This is the truth. At the very center of black identity is self-hatred drowles. Most of us hate everything black: schools, and businesses. Most of all we hate who we are because we are not white. It’s some deep sh*t. Goes back to centuries of slavery. Slave culture was passed down from generation to generation. Think about it. Slavery didn’t end 1,000 years ago. Hell, my grandmother knew someone that was a slave. That’s some deep sh*t when you can talk to someone who actually knew a slave in this country.     

As far as black people are concerned being black has nothing to do with the color of your skin. That is why Bill Clinton was voted as one of the greatest African-Americans in this country, and Collin Powel is considered a sell out cracker. Negros are messed up man.
 


Black = Struggle
No Black = no struggle..

That is such a sweeping and closed minded statement.  There are plenty of people that would find this comment ridiculous.. I mean, I understand the point of the post, I just dont think its fair (to anyone) to make statements that label an entire group..

 

Colin Powell is a sell out cracker because he didnt stand up to George W, Bill Clinton was voted a great president because he spent a lot of his time on the current plight of African Americans.  I know several blacks who do not "hate who they are".. Its simply ridiculous to think that because a few of your friends hold this view.. or even all the blacks in your community that this is a view of the black population throughout the nation.. I dont take issue when people say "some blacks".. or "i know people who".. but when you say "all" or even "most".. you are stereotyping.. and its shameful in my opinion..

You are an immature idiot.. I am trying to have a civil discussion with you.. And by the way, I would never contend that you know NOTHING about white people just because you arent one..

We are all people dude... chill out.. we'll never get anywhere (race relation wise) with that attitude..  
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: HBCU.EDU on May 18, 2005, 12:08:50 PM
suck a cock.

You don't know anything about black people. ALL blacks have been affected by slavery. ALL of us. You are removed from our situation and you only see our issues on the surface. You can’t dig the historical significance of our post.

This is how most blacks view our community. The vast majority of blacks view themselves as inferior. This is the truth. At the very center of black identity is self-hatred drowles. Most of us hate everything black: schools, and businesses. Most of all we hate who we are because we are not white. It’s some deep sh*t. Goes back to centuries of slavery. Slave culture was passed down from generation to generation. Think about it. Slavery didn’t end 1,000 years ago. Hell, my grandmother knew someone that was a slave. That’s some deep sh*t when you can talk to someone who actually knew a slave in this country.     

As far as black people are concerned being black has nothing to do with the color of your skin. That is why Bill Clinton was voted as one of the greatest African-Americans in this country, and Collin Powel is considered a sell out cracker. Negros are messed up man.
 


Black = Struggle
No Black = no struggle..

That is such a sweeping and closed minded statement.  There are plenty of people that would find this comment ridiculous.. I mean, I understand the point of the post, I just dont think its fair (to anyone) to make statements that label an entire group..

 

Colin Powell is a sell out cracker because he didnt stand up to George W, Bill Clinton was voted a great president because he spent a lot of his time on the current plight of African Americans.  I know several blacks who do not "hate who they are".. Its simply ridiculous to think that because a few of your friends hold this view.. or even all the blacks in your community that this is a view of the black population throughout the nation.. I dont take issue when people say "some blacks".. or "i know people who".. but when you say "all" or even "most".. you are stereotyping.. and its shameful in my opinion..

You are an immature idiot.. I am trying to have a civil discussion with you.. And by the way, I would never contend that you know NOTHING about white people just because you arent one..

We are all people dude... chill out.. we'll never get anywhere (race relation wise) with that attitude..   
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Statistic on May 18, 2005, 12:09:11 PM
drowles- "Colin Powell is a sell out cracker" Colin Powell is a great African-American man. Don't you ever come into BLSD with this racist *&^%.

man, Colin Powell is just another selly on the telly. He don't care about your black ass!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: MsJay9 on May 18, 2005, 12:12:33 PM
Come on HB....New BLSD...... ;)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: drowles on May 18, 2005, 12:12:52 PM
drowles- "Colin Powell is a sell out cracker" Colin Powell is a great African-American man. Don't you ever come into BLSD with this racist sh*t.

grow up fruitcake.. you said it first.. I was simply explaining why I thought some people may have this opinion of Colin Powell.. I thought Colin Powell was a great leader, and is certainly a brilliantly intelligent man.. I am one of those individuals who didnt like how he was used as Bush's pawn to tell us about mobile nuclear launching stations and *&^%.. I also dont like Condy Rice.. But.. Barack Obama, without a doubt, gave the best speech at the democratic convention.. and, in my opinion, would make a brilliant leader for our country.. Dont try and pull the race card on me.. its ridiculous...
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 18, 2005, 12:28:23 PM
hey..let's stop with the name calling..we're all very intelligent and can articulate better than that...


Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _____ on May 18, 2005, 12:48:58 PM
Black = Struggle
No Black = no struggle..

That is such a sweeping and closed minded statement.  There are plenty of people that would find this comment ridiculous.. I mean, I understand the point of the post, I just dont think its fair (to anyone) to make statements that label an entire group..

 


You have the second sentence backwards.  

It is not "no black = no struggle."  As you have it written, the phrase implies that if so long as you are not black (you are white, blue, green, whatever), you are not struggling.  This is patently false--struggle and suffering affect all people of all races and creeds (white, blue, green, whatever).  

What I DID say was that it would appear that if a black person is not struggling, then they are subject to criticism for not being black enough. (no struggle = no black)

I based these remarks on observations made in my own life.  I have seen how black people who are successful are often criticized by other black people for being whitewashed, or an oreo--basically, for not being black enough.  

But how can that be?  Their skin color hasn't changed--only their level of income and education.  And if we're to the point where it is socially unacceptable in some circles to be both black AND educated with a good income, we're at a sad, sad day...


You are correct.. I did misread the second sentence.. And, as you have said.. you have conjured your opinion of blacks being ashamed of themselves, or success, or whatever.. out of your own group of friends.. This does not represent the entire population!

As a matter of fact, when I was younger I too thought it wasnt cool to get good grades.. I went from being a straight A student to getting Ds and Fs.. I was subsequently sent to a private school that straightened me out REAL quick.. My point in revealing this is to prove that this issue is not so much racial as it is cultural.. No matter what your skin color, people are going to be jealous of any successes you may have.. And weak people, like myself at the time, tend to succomb to that pressure.. Its human nature..

Not sure if this is making sense or not.. The pressure to struggle or be cool may be greater amongst people in different groups.. but I dont think its fair to classify an ENTIRE group in this manner..

I have never said it was the entire population.  (And the post was chock full of maybes...)

As for basing my comments on my own personal experience--am I supposed to do otherwise?  What else could I base them on?  Stereotypes?

(There is a big difference between making a sterotype and making an extrapolation.  Political polls are extrapolations--ie. to say, 64% of people polled think "X", therefore it is likely that 64% of the total population thinks X is not a stereotype.  It is an extrapolation.  So to say that in my experience (i.e. my poll) these issues have surfaced in and affected the lives of black people, therefore it is likely that these issues affect the lives of other black people, is not a sterotype.  It is an extrapolation. If I had never known any blacks or made any personal observations--basing all of my ideas off of OTHER people's experiences--then it would be a stereotype.)

As for the downward pressue to get bad grades, I'm glad you went to a private school and were able to get out of it... But what about those who couldn't/can't go to a private school (where teachers and staff spend much more time with and on their students)?  

Many people are stuck in that kind of environment, and it makes it a heck of a lot harder to get out... So what can we do?  Encourage them to reject suffering and embrace success.  It's easier said than done, but you gotta start somewhere...
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: drowles on May 18, 2005, 12:56:25 PM
I totally agree with everything you just said.. not sure what, exactly, i took issue with in the last post.. and im too lazy to reread it..
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: drowles on May 18, 2005, 12:59:16 PM
Well.. I re-read it.. and I dont agree entirely.. especially about your analysis of what constitutes stereotyping and extrapolation.. Im sure the KKK could come up with some extrapolations we would all find ridiculous.. For the most part, however, I think we are agreed.. I guess..
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: drowles on May 18, 2005, 01:01:24 PM
And.. by the way.. political polls.. especially some of the ones found on the FOX news channel.. can EASILY be manipulated (extrapolated) to stereotype particular groups..
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 18, 2005, 01:02:43 PM
Annoduck was on point with his post and he got praise for it.. get over it Drowles...

it wasn't racist..there were no stereotypes..nor any hidden innuendos involved..

we got it..and have sense moved on

Many blacks throughout this country have a negative self image.. it goes from generation to generation.. just the other day a friend's grandmother said to her granddaughter

I saw that young lady Beyonce on television the other day..boy have they lightened her up.. I need to get some of that lightening cream for myself..


Can you imagine the look on my face when my girl told me her grandmother said that filth?? It’s sick… and it isn’t a rare example

Look at how many people are calling successful black people Uncle Tom’s… look at the minstrel time period and how black folks are STILL cooning on tv today..

How can you not say that self hatred doesn’t exist among black people?? I don’t know what type of utopia you’re wishing for.. but it takes a great black person to rise above hating themselves.. no one has said that ALL blacks have issues with self hatred.. but it’s safe to say that most do.. it may not show at all times..but  every now and then you will see it shine through..

It sits at the very core of our being as a whole.. a lot of people are still stuck with “the white doll is better” mentality.. The White college is superior to the Black college.. .

Let me find a white economist to support why I feel as a Black man it’s better to rent an apt than buy your own home..

Howard beat Harvard this yr in the mock trial competition?? Damn they really dropped the ball on that one..


Man I don’t want to date this sista unless she has a perm..


those girls with fros and dreadlocks are ugly.. hmm maybe they’re gay

Daughter/granddaughter  why did you do that to your hair, I miss the silky smooth look that you had

Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: drowles on May 18, 2005, 01:06:58 PM
Annoduck was on point with his post and he got praise for it.. get over it Drowles...

it wasn't racist..there were no stereotypes..nor any hidden innuendos involved..

we got it..and have sense moved on

Many blacks throughout this country have a negative self image.. it goes from generation to generation.. just the other day a friend's grandmother said to her granddaughter

I saw that young lady Beyonce on television the other day..boy have they lightened her up.. I need to get some of that lightening cream for myself..


Can you imagine the look on my face when my girl told me her grandmother said that filth?? It’s sick… and it isn’t a rare example

Look at how many people are calling successful black people Uncle Tom’s… look at the minstrel time period and how black folks are STILL cooning on tv today..

How can you not say that self hatred doesn’t exist among black people?? I don’t know what type of utopia you’re wishing for.. but it takes a great black person to rise above hating themselves.. no one has said that ALL blacks have issues with self hatred.. but it’s safe to say that most do.. it may not show at all times..but  every now and then you will see it shine through..

It sits at the very core of our being as a whole.. a lot of people are still stuck with “the white doll is better” mentality.. The White college is superior to the Black college.. .

Let me find a white economist to support why I feel as a Black man it’s better to rent an apt than buy your own home..

Howard beat Harvard this yr in the mock trial competition?? Damn they really dropped the ball on that one..


Man I don’t want to date this sista unless she has a perm..


those girls with fros and dreadlocks are ugly.. hmm maybe they’re gay

Daughter/granddaughter  why did you do that to your hair, I miss the silky smooth look that you had



Ok.. I give up.. stereotype away.. I dont think its the proper way to go about solving problems.. but to insist that a majority of people feel this way.. without having any other way to know it (unless there are some "extrapolated" polls I dont know about) is dangerous.. in my opinion.. I think some great points where made in his post, and I dont deny it, I just take issue when an entire group of people is labeled.. He has since explained that was not his intention.. and I get it.. I just dont like the terms "many" and "all" when describing a group of people.. WE ARE ALL INDIVIDUALS.. At this point, Im probably just arguing for the sake of arguing.. but its fun just the same.. sorry to annoy you.. Im done.. I guess I should now FIFTH his post..! ;D
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _____ on May 18, 2005, 01:07:44 PM
Well.. I re-read it.. and I dont agree entirely.. especially about your analysis of what constitutes stereotyping and extrapolation.. Im sure the KKK could come up with some extrapolations we would all find ridiculous.. For the most part, however, I think we are agreed.. I guess..

No one has ever said polls are an exact science--just that they are not the same thing as stereotypes.  

Everyone knows that figures and polls can be manipulated to say what people want them to say, but if removing personal experience as a basis for opinion is the correct thing to do because nothing can ever be sufficiently independently verifiable, well, then, I need to move to a new planet...
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: drowles on May 18, 2005, 01:13:46 PM
Well.. I re-read it.. and I dont agree entirely.. especially about your analysis of what constitutes stereotyping and extrapolation.. Im sure the KKK could come up with some extrapolations we would all find ridiculous.. For the most part, however, I think we are agreed.. I guess..

No one has ever said polls are an exact science--just that they are not the same thing as stereotypes.  

Everyone knows that figures and polls can be manipulated to say what people want them to say, but if removing personal experience as a basis for opinion is the correct thing to do because nothing can ever be sufficiently independently verifiable, well, then, I need to move to a new planet...

My point was that polls can be used to stereotype.. not that they are the same thing..  Saying that extrapolating from a poll frees you from the possibility of stereotyping is inaccurate.. (again, this is in my opinion)

You HIT the nail on the head!  Personal experience as a basis for OPINION.. and you are using your OPINION to classify an entire group of people.. Which, although I am alone here, I dont think is fair... Again.. that is the ONLY thing I take issue with in your post..

Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: drowles on May 18, 2005, 01:22:58 PM
Annoduck was on point with his post and he got praise for it.. get over it Drowles...

it wasn't racist..there were no stereotypes..nor any hidden innuendos involved..

we got it..and have sense moved on

Many blacks throughout this country have a negative self image.. it goes from generation to generation.. just the other day a friend's grandmother said to her granddaughter

I saw that young lady Beyonce on television the other day..boy have they lightened her up.. I need to get some of that lightening cream for myself..


Can you imagine the look on my face when my girl told me her grandmother said that filth?? It’s sick… and it isn’t a rare example

Look at how many people are calling successful black people Uncle Tom’s… look at the minstrel time period and how black folks are STILL cooning on tv today..

How can you not say that self hatred doesn’t exist among black people?? I don’t know what type of utopia you’re wishing for.. but it takes a great black person to rise above hating themselves.. no one has said that ALL blacks have issues with self hatred.. but it’s safe to say that most do.. it may not show at all times..but  every now and then you will see it shine through..

It sits at the very core of our being as a whole.. a lot of people are still stuck with “the white doll is better” mentality.. The White college is superior to the Black college.. .

Let me find a white economist to support why I feel as a Black man it’s better to rent an apt than buy your own home..

Howard beat Harvard this yr in the mock trial competition?? Damn they really dropped the ball on that one..


Man I don’t want to date this sista unless she has a perm..


those girls with fros and dreadlocks are ugly.. hmm maybe they’re gay

Daughter/granddaughter  why did you do that to your hair, I miss the silky smooth look that you had



Yeah.. i DO dream of eutopia.. i wish we all did..
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 18, 2005, 01:35:19 PM
I'm not saying that we don't...but I'm also a Realist...
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: drowles on May 18, 2005, 01:42:50 PM
I'm not saying that we don't...but I'm also a Realist...

who is "we".. are you stereotyping again?!?   ;)

I know we all do, and I know you are being a realist, and I know Ive probably wasted your time, but I like talking to you guys and.. I like ragging and getting ragged on.. all good times!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _____ on May 18, 2005, 01:46:49 PM
Well.. I re-read it.. and I dont agree entirely.. especially about your analysis of what constitutes stereotyping and extrapolation.. Im sure the KKK could come up with some extrapolations we would all find ridiculous.. For the most part, however, I think we are agreed.. I guess..

No one has ever said polls are an exact science--just that they are not the same thing as stereotypes.  

Everyone knows that figures and polls can be manipulated to say what people want them to say, but if removing personal experience as a basis for opinion is the correct thing to do because nothing can ever be sufficiently independently verifiable, well, then, I need to move to a new planet...

My point was that polls can be used to stereotype.. not that they are the same thing..  Saying that extrapolating from a poll frees you from the possibility of stereotyping is inaccurate.. (again, this is in my opinion)

You HIT the nail on the head!  Personal experience as a basis for OPINION.. and you are using your OPINION to classify an entire group of people.. Which, although I am alone here, I dont think is fair... Again.. that is the ONLY thing I take issue with in your post..


Polls free us from nothing but the lack of knowledge about those polled.

But let's talk about personal experience and classifying groups.

Lets take a different context: It is my opinion that there are many people in the world against the war in Iraq--it is based on personal experience (with a number of people considerably smaller than "the world" itself, obviously).  Am I wrong?  Am I unjustly classifying an entire group of people?

What about this:  Most hispanic people in the world speak Spanish (though they may speak other languages as well).  This opinion is based on my personal experience.  Am I wrong?

Lots of cats have four legs. This is an opinion based on personal experience. I have not seen all the cats in the world, in fact, I'm sure that some are born with only 3 or 2, or even none--I even once knew a three-legged cat personally--but based on personal experience I think it's pretty safe to say that lots of cats four legs, maybe even most.  Am I unjustly classifying cats based on my personal experience?

Obviously, people are more complex than cats, but the question remains: When is it unjustly classifying, and when is it empirically feasible for you?

Your request NOT to base my opinion on my personal experience is to ask me to have no opinion at all (given that having an opinion based on stereotypes spouted off by other people is not an option).

But here's the thing:  There's nothing wrong with having an opinion.

Besides, if you want to talk stereotypes and assumptions, here's one for you: I'm female.  I just haven't bothered correcting anyone until this point.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: drowles on May 18, 2005, 01:49:29 PM


Listen.. you keep putting words in my mouth.. and most of your comparisons are completely unfair.. there is nothing wrong with having an opinion.. I never contended otherwise..

Guess what.. Im a female too..

jokes, just jokes.. thats a GREAT comeback though.. I'd say I've been defeated here.. and, I am aware that all of you realize the dangers of stereotyping so really its a moot point.. Formulate all the opinions you want.. I just dont think one should classify a group of people using unsubstantiated opinions.. CATS mostly have four legs, People in Spain mostly speak spanish.. These are opinions/facts backed up by a wealth of data.. Your assertion, however, has no data to back it up.. Thats the difference..

Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 18, 2005, 01:52:11 PM
u haven't wasted my time.. it's cool :)

I'm not saying that we don't...but I'm also a Realist...

who is "we".. are you stereotyping again?!?   ;)

I know we all do, and I know you are being a realist, and I know Ive probably wasted your time, but I like talking to you guys and.. I like ragging and getting ragged on.. all good times!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on May 18, 2005, 02:31:11 PM
On another note.  I watched a documentary at lunch today (African American group at work)about Rosa Parks and the Bus Boycotts.  It had actual footage from the period.  It was great.  I really did not realize the role that many white people played in keeping the movement alive.  Rosa Parks employers ( a white couple) sponsored her to go on a retreat to publicize the movement.  They contributed their car to be used to take people around (their home was subsequently bombed ofcourse). There was a prominent white preacher of that got his congregation to sign on to the boycott and spread the word among the other preachers to do the same. People from around the country were sending shoes to Alabama since many people were walking 10 miles per day...It was crazy though.  They showed Martin Luther King make his very FIRST speech as the movement was gathering speed.  My favorite quote from the documentary: "they thought that blacks would quit the bus boycott on the first day of heavy rains!", then they showed blacks skipping laughingly through the streets as the rain poured down!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _____ on May 18, 2005, 02:34:49 PM


Your assertion, however, has no data to back it up.. Thats the difference..


Ah, but it does--you merely question the depth of my sample.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _____ on May 18, 2005, 02:39:26 PM
On another note.  I watched a documentary at lunch today (African American group at work)about Rosa Parks and the Bus Boycotts.  It had actual footage from the period.  It was great.  I really did not realize the role that many white people played in keeping the movement alive.  Rosa Parks employers ( a white couple) sponsored her to go on a retreat to publicize the movement.  They contributed their car to be used to take people around (their home was subsequently bombed ofcourse). There was a prominent white preacher of that got his congregation to sign on to the boycott and spread the word among the other preachers to do the same. People from around the country were sending shoes to Alabama since many people were walking 10 miles per day...It was crazy though.  They showed Martin Luther King make his very FIRST speech as the movement was gathering speed.  My favorite quote from the documentary: "they thought that blacks would quit the bus boycott on the first day of heavy rains!", then they showed blacks skipping laughingly through the streets as the rain poured down!

See, that's neat--I would love to work at a place where you learned about history and important events during lunch... I work for the County--all we learn is how to eat... (And boy do County people eat!  I swear there's a party like every two weeks--and excuse for a cake...)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Intuition on May 18, 2005, 02:41:32 PM
On another note.  I watched a documentary at lunch today (African American group at work)about Rosa Parks and the Bus Boycotts.  It had actual footage from the period.  It was great.  I really did not realize the role that many white people played in keeping the movement alive.  Rosa Parks employers ( a white couple) sponsored her to go on a retreat to publicize the movement.  They contributed their car to be used to take people around (their home was subsequently bombed ofcourse). There was a prominent white preacher of that got his congregation to sign on to the boycott and spread the word among the other preachers to do the same. People from around the country were sending shoes to Alabama since many people were walking 10 miles per day...It was crazy though.  They showed Martin Luther King make his very FIRST speech as the movement was gathering speed.  My favorite quote from the documentary: "they thought that blacks would quit the bus boycott on the first day of heavy rains!", then they showed blacks skipping laughingly through the streets as the rain poured down!

Sounds very interesting. I've talked to my Mom about the time period, she was in HS in Miami, FL and her HS had just integrated while she was there. It affected her so much that her top choice for undergrad became Ole Miss because she wanted to participate in the Civil Rights movement going on full-scale there. She was accepted and planned to attend, but unfortunately her father said he wouldn't pay the tuition  :-[ When she told me that story I found a new respect for my mom.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Rudy Huckleberry on May 18, 2005, 11:34:54 PM
Hey, I will preface with saying I haven't read all of the thread...

BUT I have *major* financial issues and am hoping folks who frequent the wealth-building thread can help a sista out.

So, I just got back home from Ireland and have a lot of random mail waiting on me.  One letter, dated 11/21/2004, is from some random collection agency called "Credit Collection Services" saying that I've been turned over by "Labcorp" for a payment of $81.00.  I'm not entirely sure what Labcorp is.  I go to their website, type in my account number with them, and it shows they found my file and that I owe $0.00.  I have obviously not paid anything.  Does anyone know what this could be about?  What should I do?  I'm calling tomorrow, but I just want to make sure this is not on my credit report.

I said *major* so obviously that is just the tip of the iceberg, but the above is a start.  I am freaking about finances right now and would really appreciate some input! *THANKS* :-\
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 19, 2005, 03:58:57 AM
Hey, I will preface with saying I haven't read all of the thread...

BUT I have *major* financial issues and am hoping folks who frequent the wealth-building thread can help a sista out.

So, I just got back home from Ireland and have a lot of random mail waiting on me.  One letter, dated 11/21/2004, is from some random collection agency called "Credit Collection Services" saying that I've been turned over by "Labcorp" for a payment of $81.00.  I'm not entirely sure what Labcorp is.  I go to their website, type in my account number with them, and it shows they found my file and that I owe $0.00.  I have obviously not paid anything.  Does anyone know what this could be about?  What should I do?  I'm calling tomorrow, but I just want to make sure this is not on my credit report.

I said *major* so obviously that is just the tip of the iceberg, but the above is a start.  I am freaking about finances right now and would really appreciate some input! *THANKS* :-\

welcome back! 
do you know what the charge is from?  write a mean nasty note to the original collection agency--usually they are so impressed that you write them that they'll credit you.
 
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Rudy Huckleberry on May 19, 2005, 06:35:23 AM
Hey, I will preface with saying I haven't read all of the thread...

BUT I have *major* financial issues and am hoping folks who frequent the wealth-building thread can help a sista out.

So, I just got back home from Ireland and have a lot of random mail waiting on me.  One letter, dated 11/21/2004, is from some random collection agency called "Credit Collection Services" saying that I've been turned over by "Labcorp" for a payment of $81.00.  I'm not entirely sure what Labcorp is.  I go to their website, type in my account number with them, and it shows they found my file and that I owe $0.00.  I have obviously not paid anything.  Does anyone know what this could be about?  What should I do?  I'm calling tomorrow, but I just want to make sure this is not on my credit report.

I said *major* so obviously that is just the tip of the iceberg, but the above is a start.  I am freaking about finances right now and would really appreciate some input! *THANKS* :-\

welcome back! 
do you know what the charge is from?  write a mean nasty note to the original collection agency--usually they are so impressed that you write them that they'll credit you.
 

I have *no* idea what Labcorp is.  I don't owe them anything anymore either apparently.  I'm calling all these people now....grrr...not the way I wanted to spend my first day home!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: MsJay9 on May 19, 2005, 07:02:41 AM
Mobell, first I want to say Welcome Home!  :)

What I think you need to do first is contact someone from the place that the original debt came from.  The 0 balance on the website could be due to the fact that they sent it out to collections and so they've written the charge off and you don't owe them anymore.  This is possible to get corrected if you work w/the right people at the company, if it was actually your debt.  As a former victim of identity fraud you should make sure to keep all paperwork sent out about this as well as write down everyones name and work id number if possible when you talk to them just in case you need to refer back to their information at a later date.  This will make it much easier when trying to get it off of your credit report.  You can PM me if you need to, I've been down this road.  :-\

Hey, I will preface with saying I haven't read all of the thread...

BUT I have *major* financial issues and am hoping folks who frequent the wealth-building thread can help a sista out.

So, I just got back home from Ireland and have a lot of random mail waiting on me.  One letter, dated 11/21/2004, is from some random collection agency called "Credit Collection Services" saying that I've been turned over by "Labcorp" for a payment of $81.00.  I'm not entirely sure what Labcorp is.  I go to their website, type in my account number with them, and it shows they found my file and that I owe $0.00.  I have obviously not paid anything.  Does anyone know what this could be about?  What should I do?  I'm calling tomorrow, but I just want to make sure this is not on my credit report.

I said *major* so obviously that is just the tip of the iceberg, but the above is a start.  I am freaking about finances right now and would really appreciate some input! *THANKS* :-\
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on May 19, 2005, 07:43:42 AM
Good stuff Msjay.  Good luck Mo.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: smujd2007 on May 20, 2005, 10:58:09 AM
Welcome home, mobell!!!

Good luck with the credit issues.  Looks like Ms. Jay is the most knowledgeable in this area. Sands might be able to help if he's around, but hes been mia for a few weeks.   If he pops back up, then ask him.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: HBCU.EDU on May 20, 2005, 04:10:20 PM
Wow! That is great blk! I'll PM you today!  :P
 


With that said.. I’m here to do whatever I can to help you guys in your quest for wealth-building and home ownership.. if you are considering purchasing a home.. I can help you get an excellent deal anywhere in this country… a very dear friend of mine is an African American loan officer  and she works with all types of credit.. finds excellent deals in spite of student loans.. so if you’re interested.. feel free to PM me for further details…

Onward and Upward in the struggle!

Edit: As a barred attorney I can also help with some of the seller consession (ie builder/seller contracts)

Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: smujd2007 on May 20, 2005, 06:27:34 PM
Wow! That is great blk! I'll PM you today! :P
 


With that said.. I’m here to do whatever I can to help you guys in your quest for wealth-building and home ownership.. if you are considering purchasing a home.. I can help you get an excellent deal anywhere in this country… a very dear friend of mine is an African American loan officer and she works with all types of credit.. finds excellent deals in spite of student loans.. so if you’re interested.. feel free to PM me for further details…

Onward and Upward in the struggle!

Edit: As a barred attorney I can also help with some of the seller consession (ie builder/seller contracts)


Everyone give big ups to blk.  She has been a wonderful moderator and support system for all of us black folk.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _____ on May 20, 2005, 06:57:09 PM
Wow! That is great blk! I'll PM you today! :P
 


With that said.. I’m here to do whatever I can to help you guys in your quest for wealth-building and home ownership.. if you are considering purchasing a home.. I can help you get an excellent deal anywhere in this country… a very dear friend of mine is an African American loan officer and she works with all types of credit.. finds excellent deals in spite of student loans.. so if you’re interested.. feel free to PM me for further details…

Onward and Upward in the struggle!

Edit: As a barred attorney I can also help with some of the seller consession (ie builder/seller contracts)


Everyone give big ups to blk.  She has been a wonderful moderator and support system for all of us black folk.

YAY blk!  :D
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 24, 2005, 08:49:44 AM
aweeee... thanks you guys :'( :)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 24, 2005, 08:51:36 AM

New and Improved Second Chance Banking Products Help Black Americans With Bad Banking History Get A Fresh Start 

Currently over 70 million Americans need new checking accounts in this country. Of that number, many of these individuals are minorities, single parents, senior citizens and/or divorcees. The Dottie Marketing Group Consumer Club (DMGCC) has launched a nationwide marketing campaign, assisting those individuals who have been blacklisted by ChexSystems and/or TeleCheck, the official credit bureaus of the banking industry.

ChexSystems and TeleCheck are reporting agencies that provide negative banking information about individuals, according to their history with banks. This, in turn, can ban that person from opening a new bank account of any kind with another bank for up to seven years.


DMGCC helps individuals set up new checking accounts with one of three FDIC Banks that they represent. A bank ATM cash card is also provided for easy access to the checking account. This bank ATM card does not have a MasterCard or Visa logo on it. However, it is widely accepted at most ATM machines and retail stores everywhere.

For those who want a card with a major credit card logo, DMGCC also offers a MasterCard logo debit card with unlimited usage per month for a $9 service fee. This debit card is one of the first bank debit cards to offer unlimited usage for a flat monthly rate. This new card also accepts direct deposits, wired cash, and mailed-in endorsed checks with personalized deposit slips.

The administrative process for both of these Second Chance Banking products is fast and easy. An individual can get set-up online or through the mail. Same day service is now available through Paypal online or via MoneyGram Express Payment wire for $6.95.

There is no need of a ChexSystems/TeleCheck credit check, an initial deposit, or an interview with a personal banker. An applicant is guaranteed approval for both banking products, as long as they are 18 years old, have a verifiable home address and telephone number, and possess a valid driver's license, state ID, military ID or US passport.

The one-time processing/set-up fees for these Second Chance Banking products are as follows:

New Checking Account set-up fee, only: $69.00;
MasterCard logo debit card set-up fee, only: $49.00;
or for both, only: $89.00

Senior Citizens 60 and over do not have to pay a fee to set up a new checking account. Only proof of age is required when applying.

For further information about these new Second Chance Banking products, contact:

Debby Thomas, Marketing Director, (866) 418-0133, www.2ndchancechecking.net


To apply, call the marketing representative in your respective area.

* Denise - East Coast Representative: 1-877-924-5030
* Daphne - Southern Representative: 1-877-374-7844
* Krystal - Los Angeles Representative: 1-877-827-7633
* David - Northern California Representative: 1-877-243-0651
* Luanna - Greater West Coast Representative: 1-800-679-8082
* Kayla - Midwest Representative: 1-866-747-9831
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on May 24, 2005, 10:24:23 AM

New Home possible Mortgage Products: required downpayment only $500. (There is a special product for teachers Ms Jay, check it out).  Let me know if you cannot access this link.

http://www.freddiemac.com/search/search_results.jsp?QueryText=home+possible+mortgages&pathName=%2F
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: MsJay9 on May 24, 2005, 11:18:31 AM

New Home possible Mortgage Products: required downpayment only $500. (There is a special product for teachers Ms Jay, check it out).  Let me know if you cannot access this link.

http://www.freddiemac.com/search/search_results.jsp?QueryText=home+possible+mortgages&pathName=%2F

Hey BP...I don't see the product for teachers....where is it?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 24, 2005, 12:01:04 PM

New and Improved Second Chance Banking Products Help Black Americans With Bad Banking History Get A Fresh Start 

Currently over 70 million Americans need new checking accounts in this country. Of that number, many of these individuals are minorities, single parents, senior citizens and/or divorcees. The Dottie Marketing Group Consumer Club (DMGCC) has launched a nationwide marketing campaign, assisting those individuals who have been blacklisted by ChexSystems and/or TeleCheck, the official credit bureaus of the banking industry.

ChexSystems and TeleCheck are reporting agencies that provide negative banking information about individuals, according to their history with banks. This, in turn, can ban that person from opening a new bank account of any kind with another bank for up to seven years.


DMGCC helps individuals set up new checking accounts with one of three FDIC Banks that they represent. A bank ATM cash card is also provided for easy access to the checking account. This bank ATM card does not have a MasterCard or Visa logo on it. However, it is widely accepted at most ATM machines and retail stores everywhere.

For those who want a card with a major credit card logo, DMGCC also offers a MasterCard logo debit card with unlimited usage per month for a $9 service fee. This debit card is one of the first bank debit cards to offer unlimited usage for a flat monthly rate. This new card also accepts direct deposits, wired cash, and mailed-in endorsed checks with personalized deposit slips.

The administrative process for both of these Second Chance Banking products is fast and easy. An individual can get set-up online or through the mail. Same day service is now available through Paypal online or via MoneyGram Express Payment wire for $6.95.

There is no need of a ChexSystems/TeleCheck credit check, an initial deposit, or an interview with a personal banker. An applicant is guaranteed approval for both banking products, as long as they are 18 years old, have a verifiable home address and telephone number, and possess a valid driver's license, state ID, military ID or US passport.

The one-time processing/set-up fees for these Second Chance Banking products are as follows:

New Checking Account set-up fee, only: $69.00;
MasterCard logo debit card set-up fee, only: $49.00;
or for both, only: $89.00

Senior Citizens 60 and over do not have to pay a fee to set up a new checking account. Only proof of age is required when applying.

For further information about these new Second Chance Banking products, contact:

Debby Thomas, Marketing Director, (866) 418-0133, www.2ndchancechecking.net


To apply, call the marketing representative in your respective area.

* Denise - East Coast Representative: 1-877-924-5030
* Daphne - Southern Representative: 1-877-374-7844
* Krystal - Los Angeles Representative: 1-877-827-7633
* David - Northern California Representative: 1-877-243-0651
* Luanna - Greater West Coast Representative: 1-800-679-8082
* Kayla - Midwest Representative: 1-866-747-9831


I actually know someone involved in a similar program in DC.  great idea
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Lawprofessor on May 24, 2005, 12:14:12 PM
What did I tell you all about Prince Georges County!!!

THE MOST AFFLUENT AFRICAN-AMERICAN AND BEST MANAGED COUNTY IN THE COUNTRY...THE PRINCE GEORGE'S MARYLAND STORY


Mitchellville, MD (BlackNews.com) - The New York Times ran a story on June 14, 1992 in The New York Times Magazine titled "The New Black Suburbs" by David J. Dent, featuring Prince George's County, MD. The cover photo featured the Johnson family, Jack B. and Leslie Johnson with their sons Jack Jr. and Zachary outside their home in Paradise Acres, a predominantly Black upper-middle-class neighborhood in Mitchellville, which is located in Prince George's County, MD.


At the time of the story Jack B. Johnson was a Prince George's county prosecutor; the county was 51% Black with a total population of 729,268. In addition, the County Executive was Parris Glendening, a white male who later became the Governor of the State of Maryland. Ironically, ten years later Jack B. Johnson became only the second African American to hold the position of County Executive and is one of only two African Americans who hold the position of County Executives in the United States.


According to a recent study on African American buying power by the University of Georgia, Prince George's County is the most affluent county in the country. In fact, its statistical contribution has made Washington DC the second most affluent African-American market and the number one city with the largest affluent African-American suburb. Currently, the population of Prince George's County is 850, 384 with African Americans comprising 62.7%.


Prince George's County has also become the Mecca for African Americans when seeing employment opportunities with its large number of African-American owned businesses such as Radio One the nation's largest African American owned radio broadcast network.


Gaylord National Resorts, which will become the largest combined hotel and convention center in the Washington, D.C. region, is building on the banks of the Potomac River, in Prince George's County's National Harbor. Gaylord National Resorts, which is the largest hospitality industry project to break ground outside of Las Vegas, is scheduled to open in March 2008. The 500 million dollar project will provide over a minimum of 150 million dollars for minority businesses in Prince George's County. The National Harbor, which is a mixed-use urban waterfront village covering 225 acres along one and one quarter miles of the Potomac River, is th e largest development in the history of Prince George's County. With that said, no wonder Prince George's County has a very hot climate for minority businesses!


Not only is Prince George's County, MD the most affluent, but also one of the best managed Counties in the US. There are 3,066 Counties in the United States. Prince George's County, MD alone with 39 other counties was selected in a group of 40 counties to determine how good a job most counties do at managing their finances, when they're allowed a reasonable amount of freedom. The 40 counties in Governing Magazine's "Government Performance Project" received an average grade of B- in Financial Management. Prince George's County with a B+ was tried for fourth place with first place go! ing to Fairfax County, VA with a grade of A-.


The Prince George's story is a great story to tell...A County that is over 300 years old, one of the best managed, received the highest bond rating in its history this year and has a Livable Community Initiative that is one of the best in the country! And last but not the less, the most affluent African-American county in the nation!!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on May 24, 2005, 12:17:12 PM

New Home possible Mortgage Products: required downpayment only $500. (There is a special product for teachers Ms Jay, check it out).  Let me know if you cannot access this link.

http://www.freddiemac.com/search/search_results.jsp?QueryText=home+possible+mortgages&pathName=%2F

Hey BP...I don't see the product for teachers....where is it?

It's on page 3 of the first pdf on that page.  It's called the HOme possible neighborhood solution 100 (this is the name of the product used by the lender).  

excerpt: Provides Temporary subsidy buydown plans permitting borrowers to qualify using an interest rate that is 1.5 % points lower than the stated rate.  This increases the purchasing power of teachers, firefighters, law enforcement workers, and healthcare workers so they can live in the community they serve

Only people in those "community serving" jobs mentioned above can qualify under the Home Possible Neighborhood Solution 100 product.  Let me know if you need more info, but note these products are facilitated at the lender level, so definitely mention that you are aware of them when it is time for you to shop for your mortgage.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on May 24, 2005, 12:24:33 PM
Msjay, follow this link to see if you meet the income eligibility for the above product.  I have it set for Ohio:

http://ww3.freddiemac.com/ds2/sell/affgold.nsf/frmState?OpenForm&State=OHIO
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on May 24, 2005, 12:29:49 PM
If you qualify, follow this link:

http://www.freddiemac.com/singlefamily/mortgages/homepossible/ns100.html

scroll all the way to the bottom and you'll see a fact sheet for this particular product with relevant info.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: MsJay9 on May 24, 2005, 12:43:30 PM
 :) BP what did I ever do without you!  Thank You, I'll be looking into this fully this evening while I wait outside of babygirl's ballet class! :)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on May 24, 2005, 01:04:05 PM
:) BP what did I ever do without you!  Thank You, I'll be looking into this fully this evening while I wait outside of babygirl's ballet class! :)

Best believe it;)  Happy to help Msjay.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Omegaman on May 24, 2005, 03:53:15 PM
Mystics sold, Johnson becomes WNBA's first black female owner
May 24, 2005

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Former television executive Sheila Johnson became the WNBA's first black female owner Tuesday when she joined a group that purchased the Washington Mystics.

Johnson, co-founder of Black Entertainment Television, became a part-owner of Lincoln Holdings LLC, which purchased the Mystics from Abe Pollin's Washington Sports & Entertainment. Lincoln Holdings, founded by AOL executive Ted Leonsis, owns the NHL's Washington Capitals and is a 45-percent partner in the NBA's Washington Wizards and MCI Center, which Pollin also owns.

The Mystics said Johnson is believed to be the first black woman to be a part-owner of three professional sports franchises. Johnson's stake in Lincoln Holdings is between 5 and 10 percent.

ADVERTISEMENT
Leonsis said Johnson will hold the titles of president and managing partner of the Mystics and will represent the team at the board of governors meetings.

``We think it's time for an African-American woman to own a WNBA team,'' Pollin said. ``We sought her out, we think she's perfect to run a team.''

Her former husband, Robert L. Johnson, who co-founded BET with Johnson, is the owner of the Charlotte Bobcats of the NBA. The two divorced in 2002.

Sheila Johnson, who lives about 50 miles from Washington, is the director of the Washington International Horse Show, which is held annually at MCI Center.

``I hope that this is a signal that it's about time that a woman, and an African-American woman, is part of this whole scene of sports,'' Johnson said.

The purchase price for Pollin's share of the Mystics was about $5.5 million, which would put the franchise's worth at about $10 million.

The sale is the latest transfer of Pollin's holdings to Leonsis' group. In 1999, Lincoln Holdings bought the Capitals from Pollin, but Leonsis has said that team has consistently lost money. The Mystics, meanwhile, have led the WNBA in attendance five times since beginning play in 1998.

``I will say that the Mystics are managed and have been running better than the Washington Capitals. At least they're playing and have a shot at making money,'' Leonsis said. ``So it's an honor to be part of a team that is very vital and has been a leader in attendance so many years.

``Sheila really has a unique perspective on business and management and how to drive our sports teams forward,'' he added.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on June 03, 2005, 08:29:05 AM
Ways & Means: Six Ways to Pay Off Your Student Loans Part 1

It is the moment you have been waiting for. After several grueling years of studying and wonderful memories of socializing., armed with your mint diploma, you are ready to enter the workforce to slay corporate Goliaths. Just as you are about to celebrate your journey to freedom you realize that there are a few roadblocks up ahead, including paying bills, buying a home and paying off those student loans you racked up while pursuing your higher education.


Now you might be thinking that you have plenty of time to worry about these things, especially since you have up until six months after graduation before you have to start paying off student loans. However, this grace period is actually the best time to begin repayment since student loan interest rates are over a half a percentage point lower. You’ll also want to give serious thought to repayment plans. You have four options:


Standard Payment
This is the quickest way to pay of your loans but it requires the highest monthly payments. In 10 years, you’ll have finished paying off your loans plus you’ll get the better interest rate. Should you land a great paying job out of college and can afford to make steep monthly payments, go with this plan.


Income-Sensitive Payment
This is a good fit if you’re unsure what your salary will be or get a job working on commission. Your monthly payments are calculated based on your gross monthly income and the total loan amount. You’ll get up to 15 years to pay it all off but you have to reapply for this plan each year.

Graduated Payment
This is ideal if you expect to make a modest salary starting out but expect it to steadily rise after a few years in the job market. With this plan, your monthly payments would increase every couple of years for the next 10 to 30 years.


Extended Payment
You can pay the least possible amount per month by lengthening your payback time up to 30 years. Of course by the time 30 years rolls around, you may have paid double the original amount of the loan and you’ll end up paying at the worst possible interest rate.


Bear in mind that if you fail to choose a repayment plan when you first begin repaying your loans, you’ll automatically be put on the standard one at a fixed rate. There may be some other options that you may be unaware of, including those that reduce or wipe out your student loan debt altogether.


Work Off Your Student Loans
Congress has passed a bill that will forgive your student loan debt up to $10,000 per year and $60,000 over your career if you work for the federal government. How about devoting a year of your life to volunteering for Americorps (www.americorps.org; 800-942-2677), you’ll be rewarded with $4,725 to spend on your college debts and a stipend of up to $7,400. Or if you opt to travel with the Peace Corps (www.peacecorps.gov; 800-424-8580) you’ll get to defer most of your student loans until after you leave the program. Also, you may be able to get as much as 70 percent of the loan amount you owe reduced. Should you join the Army Reserve or National Guard after graduation, you can receive up $10,000 to pay of your loans.

Wipe Out Your Student Loans
There is a special student loan forgiveness program for teachers. Congress has already passed the Taxpayer Protection Act, which is awaiting President Bush’s signature. Under the program, a schoolteacher can erase up to $17,500 in student loan debt. The catch, however, is that you have to teach specific courses, such as math, science or special education. Or you have to teach in a school that services students from low-income families or is in a designated area with a teacher shortage. Moreover, student loans can be completely absolved for those who are a full-time provider of early intervention services for the disabled, a full-time nurse or medical technician, or a full-time law enforcement or corrections officer. Loan forgiveness is also available to law students who take on public interest or non-profit positions and med students who practice in underserved areas.


Whether you are in college, just graduated, or graduated a long time ago, you can consolidate your debts. Also, unknown to millions of student loan payees, you might be able to get a break from your payments if you’re suffering financial hardship or even if you’re about to get married. Read about loan consolidation, deferment and forbearance in more detail in ‘Getting Rid of Student Loan Debt, Part II.’
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on June 03, 2005, 08:33:25 AM
Ways & Means: Getting Rid of Your Student Loan Debt Part II

Each year millions of cash-strapped, student-loan payees consolidate in hopes of getting a better grip on their debt. Basically, loan consolidation consists of bunching all your separate student loans into one payment. So, rather than having three different types of loans for $300 each and paying close to a grand each month, you may be able to consolidate your loans and owe only $300 a month.


If you haven’t done so already now may be the time to consolidate. The interest rate on such loans is scheduled to rise 1.5 percent to 2 percent after July 1, 2005. Furthermore, part of President Bush’s budget proposal calls for changes to student loan consolidation. For starters, the terms could switch to a variable interest rate instead of the fixed rate now available to borrowers. Federal law currently mandates your new loan feature the combined balance of your previous loans, as well as a weighted average of the interest rates of all your loans adjusted up to the nearest one-eighth percent. This rate cannot exceed 8.25 percent.


The president’s proposal also calls for cuts in the amount of government money going into student consolidation loans by more than half, forcing more borrowers to turn to private lenders. One positive change is that the proposal seeks to allow borrowers to reconsolidate after paying a 1 percent fee. As it stands now, once you refinance your student loan that’s it -- you don’t get a second chance to consolidate. But none of this is likely to happen before July 1, 2006.

Whether you are in college, just graduated or graduated a while ago, you can consolidate. Start at the U.S. Department of Education, www.loanconsolidate.ed.gov Also, call a few private lenders to see if they can offer a lower rate. The biggest downside is that it will take you longer to pay off your consolidated loan. If you plan to eventually go back to school and take out more student loans, consolidation could mess up your chances for interest subsidy benefits on future loans.


Are you having a hard time making your monthly payments no matter how small? Consider temporarily postponing repayment through deferment or forbearance.

Defer Your Payments
Deferment allows borrowers to stop paying on their student loans for specified periods of time under certain circumstances such as re-enrollment in school, unemployment or economic hardship. You must formally request a deferment from your loan holder and show documentation that you are eligible. There is a three-year limit for deferring loans for those having economic hardship or full-time unemployment. There is no limit if you’re going back to school.


Ask For Forbearance
Let’s say you’re getting pulled in different directions -- trying to put a down payment on a new house, paying for your youngest child’s surgery, planning a wedding, and so on. You can just call up your lender, state your case and request forbearance. This way you can suspend or reduce your student loan payments for specified periods, typically three months. You’ll have a better shot getting forbearance if you can show that you will be unable to meet monthly payments because of financial hardship.


During deferment and forbearance periods, interest continues to accrue on your loans. It will be added to the amount you owe and must be repaid when payments resume. With forbearance, any unpaid interest is added to your principle balance only four times that year (quarterly) rather than monthly. Contact your lender directly or the Department of Education at 800-4FED-AID or visit www.studentaid.ed.gov.


If you can’t make your make payments on time, seeking deferment or forbearance are better alternatives to defaulting. Often when some people fall on hard times, they opt not to pay certain bills, hoping that credit card companies, for instance, will eventually write them off and take the loss. That's not going to work with the government. Not only won't you get a sympathetic ear from Uncle Sam, you might even get sued. The government is currently trying to collect about $31 billion in defaulted loans. Bear in mind that delinquent borrowers are charged the government's legal fees, which can add 25 percent to 30 percent to the amount already owed.


Still not concerned? Once the government has a judgment against you, it can seize your assets. The Internal Revenue is not the only agency to wield such power. The U.S. Department of Education also can garnish your tax refunds, wages, bank accounts, stock and mutual funds or even seize your car without a court order. You have 270 days of nonpayment before the government pronounces you in default and you’ll have to suffer the consequences.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on June 06, 2005, 12:59:21 PM
Understanding interest-only loans

In the movie ``Field of Dreams,'' an Iowa corn farmer kept hearing whispers of ``if you build it, they will come.''
     
I think of that famous line when I see advertising for interest-only loans. All the financial institutions have to do is build a loan product and people will come -- even when they shouldn't. Interest-only loans are just that -- loans in which at first you pay only the interest on what you borrow. An interest-only payment option can come with a 30-year fixed loan or an adjustable-rate mortgage (ARM). The length of the interest-only loan can vary from three years to 10 years.
     
The rates on interest-only loans can change as often as every month or be fixed for periods of three years to 10 years. Without a doubt, an interest-only loan has a great selling point -- you can qualify for a higher-priced home. For instance, let's say that under a traditional mortgage product where you pay interest and principal you would only qualify for a $250,000 loan. With a 30-year mortgage at 5.72 percent (the weekly average as of May 26, according to Bankrate.com) your payment would be $1,454 (excluding taxes and mortgage insurance). But with a 5-year interest-only ARM at 4.68 percent, you could get a $350,000 mortgage and your monthly payment would be $1,365.
     
In heated housing markets people are doing whatever they can to get into a house. They fear that if they wait, homeownership will escape them. That's one of the reasons interest-only loans have become extremely popular in the last several years. Here's how one lender advertised interest-only loans: ``You won't build equity in your home during the interest-only period, but it could help you afford to buy the home you want instead of settling for the home you can afford.''  But you have to ask yourself if it is worth it to buy a home that could put you in the poor house.
     
``Interest-only loans, while a wonderful product, need to be used judiciously,'' said Morris Armstrong of Armstrong Financial Strategies, a fee-only planning and asset management company based in Danbury, Conn. ``Because they allow you to effectively borrow more money than under a conventional loan, they can create situations where the borrower is in over their heads which can lead to financial difficulties including foreclosure.''



So who are interest-only loans good for?
     -- If you don't expect to stay in your home long, say five to seven years.  For example, an interest-only loan might make sense for single people with the hopes that they will get married, move up, or relocate due to a job, said Colleen Sargent, owner of F&M Mortgage Corp. in Fairfax Station, Va. ``If none of these things happens to the borrowers then they always have the ability or option to make principal and interest payments.''
     -- If you're in an upper income tax bracket and want the highest amount of home-interest deductibility possible.
     -- If your income fluctuates during the year. Interest-only loans can make sense for people who are paid on commission or receive bonuses as part of their annual compensation. If that is the case, you can make interest-only payments when your income is low, but then when more money is coming, you have the ability to pay something on the principal, Sargent said.
     -- You expect a large expense to go down or your income to significantly go up in the future. ``Imagine if you are paying $12,000 a year for child care and that in three years those payments will cease,'' Armstrong said. ``When the payments cease, then you can apply that to housing payments, either paying down principal or refinancing.''
     
There's another group of home buyers that are opting for interest-only loans -- people looking for the lowest mortgage payment possible and probably wouldn't qualify for the house they want with a loan payment that included the interest and principal. It's that last group of people that worry me the most -- home buyers who are just barely squeezing into a house with an interest-only loan.
     
``I am not sure that any loan which enables someone to dig their financial grave is good and I wish that underwriters would realize that,'' Armstrong said.
     
What happens when reckoning day comes -- the day you have to make interest and principal payments? If you can barely afford an interest-only payment, what will you do? Get another interest-only loan? Sell? What if housing prices take a tumble and you have to move? If you are forced to sell your house and it hasn't appreciated -- and you haven't built up equity by making payments toward the principal -- you could end up having to bring money to the settlement table. Money you likely don't have.
     
Borrowers with interest-only loans that convert to a variable rate after the fixed term is over need to be particularly careful, especially since interest rates have been rising, cautioned James R. Cotto, director of investments at Cotto & Padovani Financial Strategies Group in Mount Kisco, N.Y. What if you can't refinance into another interest-only loan or any loan? If interest rates have jumped significantly, you'll be stuck with a mortgage payment you can't make.
     
Before you listen to whispers of the lending industry that an interest-only loan is your home-owning salvation, make sure you understand the pros and cons of this product.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: smujd2007 on June 06, 2005, 01:07:26 PM
thanks for the post blk.  though i am at least two years from considering home buying, its nice to get good info.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on June 06, 2005, 01:10:53 PM
Yeah, great info for everyone.  Good looking Blk.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: elegantpearl01 on June 08, 2005, 05:40:04 AM
That's good information, I'm thinking about buying something here in Tallahassee, I only hesitate because I don't see myself here for 5-10 years.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: dbgirl on June 11, 2005, 02:01:19 PM
OK so maybe you real estate experts will have some ideas here.
I'm interested in trying to buy a duplex/triplex with my grandmother.
I live in the Bay Area CA.

My grandmother's current house is worth at least $500k and she probably owes around $25k. So, I saw a duplex that cost $700k.
I was thinking that somehow grandma could sell her home, put that $500k as a downpayment and my boyfriend and I could somehow take out a mortgage for the rest of the $$.

*How much money do you have to make to qualify for a $200k mortgage?

*How would we work out ownership, since clearly she has the bigger interest in the house?

Ideas, suggestions?
Thanks!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: twarga on June 11, 2005, 03:12:33 PM
My grandmother's current house is worth at least $500k and she probably owes around $25k. So, I saw a duplex that cost $700k.
I was thinking that somehow grandma could sell her home, put that $500k as a downpayment and my boyfriend and I could somehow take out a mortgage for the rest of the $$.


Start smaller and do it on your own.  There's no reason to live in a $700K home when you're so young and broke, and you certainly don't want granny calling the shots (and she probably won't cosign anything if you aren't married to this guy).  Hubby and I got our home for $98K back in 1997.  When we sell it after law school (in 2008), we hope to get $175K for it (the other houses in the neighborhood are going for $160K right now).  We started small and we're going to move up to the big leagues when we can afford it.  It feels good to know we did it on our own.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: dbgirl on June 11, 2005, 03:46:29 PM
Thanks for responding Twarga.
Granny already calls the shots -- we rent from her.

And there is no such thing as a $98,000 house out here.
Even condos are in the mid $300s to start. A mobile home can even reach almost $200k out here. That's why I had the duplex idea. I'm just trying to own something, anything  :'(

I understand the concern though about buying more house than you can afford. My brother and his wife did this and now they live in a big house but are stressed out about money.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _____ on June 13, 2005, 12:29:37 PM
Thanks for responding Twarga.
Granny already calls the shots -- we rent from her.

And there is no such thing as a $98,000 house out here.
Even condos are in the mid $300s to start. A mobile home can even reach almost $200k out here. That's why I had the duplex idea. I'm just trying to own something, anything  :'(

I understand the concern though about buying more house than you can afford. My brother and his wife did this and now they live in a big house but are stressed out about money.


It is possible to set up ownership so that granny owns 5/7ths of the house while you and your boyfriend are the only ones named on the loan, BUT this would be a VERY risky deal for granny.

Why?  Because even though granny's name is not on the loan, if--for some reason, any reason--you and your boyfriend are unable to make the monthly mortgage payments, granny will lose not only her 5/7ths but her home as well.

Such an ownership structure is possible, but it exposes granny to more risk than most seniors are comfortable with--and that you should be comfortable with too...

I have read that you are going to Hastings--that's great. But that also means you are going to stop working to go to school.  Who will be paying the mortgage then?  Your boyfriend, right?  What if things don't work out with him?  What if he stops paying the mortgage?  Where is the money going to come from? Granny?  Are you going to stop school to pay the mortgage?


It would basically work one of two ways:

(1)
Owner(s): Granny (5/7), You (1/7), BF (1/7)
People responsible for the loan: You, BF
Losers in case of foreclosure: ALL THREE--but particularly Granny

(2)
Owner: Granny (100%)
People responsible for the loan: You, BF
Losers in case of foreclosure: ALL THREE--but particularly Granny

Either way, GRANNY is potentially the big loser.  Don't subject your granny to risk.  It's ok to take on your own risk because you're young, but don't subject her to it as well.  She's too old to have to worry about starting over.

My opinion: If you can't do it on your own right now, you can't do it right now. Period.  Wait until you graduate and have a job. 

Getting your foot in the door is NOT more important than protecting Granny from risk.

Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Omegaman on June 21, 2005, 04:24:59 AM
Seeking More Than Apologies for Slavery
Activists Hope Firms' Disclosure of Ties Will Lead to Reparations

By Darryl Fears
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, June 20, 2005; A01

It was a brief mea culpa, a few short paragraphs typed on a sheet of paper. "On behalf of Wachovia Corporation, I apologize to all Americans, and especially to African Americans and people of African descent," Chairman and chief executive G. Kennedy Thompson said after a study found that his company had purchased two banks that exploited slaves.

Wachovia revealed on June 1 that one of the banks put hundreds of slaves to work on railroads and another accepted more than 100 more as collateral on defaulted loans in the 1800s. Wachovia, one of the nation's largest banks, was required by the city of Chicago to investigate its past to participate in the redevelopment of a housing project on the city's South Side.

Chicago's law is the result of a campaign by a network of black politicians, lawyers, professors and reparations activists who say they want Americans to know that slave purchases were often financed with bank loans and insured.

Since 2000, when the first disclosure law was enacted by the state of California, similar laws have been passed in Los Angeles, Detroit and Philadelphia. New Orleans is considering a version of the law, and numerous other city lawmakers have expressed interest, said Dorothy J. Tillman, the Chicago alderman who sponsored the ordinance.

Disclosure laws in the past have required companies to reveal their ties to the Holocaust and South Africa's former apartheid government. Tillman said Americans deserve to know that companies they rely on for mortgages, credit cards and insurance supported the slave trade with similar loans.

"We have a history that's not being told," she said. "We want our history to be told in every book and every school -- our true history."

The activists see the apologies, in some cases, as possible preludes to reparation payments. But Wachovia, and every other company that has acknowledged ties to slavery, has declined to make any such payments. A spokesman for Aetna, which had a reparations lawsuit thrown out, said the insurance company believes that no court would grant reparations for a crime, no matter how tragic, that occurred so long ago.

Reparations to African Americans are extraordinarily rare. The $1.8 million award in 1994 to victims of the riot and massacre in Rosewood, Fla., is one of a few.

In that 1923 incident, white authorities and citizens killed 26 black men, women and children and buried them in a mass grave. About 355 black residents were driven from their homes as the community burned.

The U.S. government has never apologized or paid reparations to the descendants of slaves. Other groups, such as Japanese Americans who were forced into camps during World War II, have been more successful. Swiss banks paid reparations to Holocaust victims after the banks acknowledged they had accepted money and goods stolen from Jews by Nazis during World War II.

A CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll in 2002 showed that nine out of 10 white Americans said the government should not make cash reparations payments, while half of black respondents said it should.

Sixty-two percent of white respondents also believed that the government should not apologize to African Americans for underwriting slavery, while 68 percent of African Americans said it should.

But as corporate leaders have come under pressure from some state and local governments, and the extent of their companies' participation in slavery is revealed, they are feeling compelled to apologize.

"We know we can't change the past, and we can't make up for the wrongs of slavery," Thompson, the Wachovia chairman, said in his statement. "But we can learn from our past and begin a dialogue about slavery and the experience of African Americans in our country."

Wachovia spokesman Scott Silvestri said the company is talking to the NAACP, the Urban League and other civil rights groups about how to proceed. "We didn't want to have a donation or gift right out of a gate," he said. "We wanted to think about what's the best way to address that."

Charles Ogletree, a Harvard University law professor and reparations activist whom Tillman consulted to help craft the Chicago ordinance, said research required by the law has revealed involvement in slavery by companies that have historically denied it. "Investigations are turning up substantial evidence of connections between their corporate success and their exploitation of slaves in the 18th and 19th century," he said.

Ogletree said the disclosures and apologies could be a turning point in convincing the courts and average Americans that reparations are warranted.

A 111-page report released by Wachovia along with its apology showed that a bank it acquired, the Georgia Railroad and Banking Co., put 529 slaves to work on railroads. Another, the Bank of Charleston, accepted 162 slaves when clients defaulted on loans. Wachovia contracted a group in Chantilly, Va., called the History Factory to search its records.

In 2002, Aetna was forced to acknowledge its role in insuring slave owners in the 1850s against the deaths of slaves after Deadria Farmer-Paellmann, a reparations activist, discovered the policies.

Through the mid-1800s, insurance companies often paid claims when slaves escaped, then would place ads in publications offering rewards to bounty hunters to track them down and bring them back, even if they had escaped to free states. The slaves would be resold.

In January, J.P. Morgan Chase, the nation's second-largest bank, apologized for the role its subsidiaries played in using more than 10,000 slaves as collateral for loans and accepting more than 1,000 slaves when their owners defaulted. J.P. Morgan's apology also was prompted by the Chicago disclosure law.

Bank of America Corp. is fighting accusations at Chicago City Hall that it did not disclose its ties to slavery on a sworn affidavit. The city is reviewing evidence showing slave ownership by John Brown -- a former director of Providence Bank, which became Fleet-Boston, a bank later acquired by Bank of America.

A host of other companies fought the lawsuit, filed in 2002, after investigations found links to slavery. They include investors Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. and Brown Brothers Harriman; insurers American International Group Inc. and Lloyds of London; tobacco makers R.J. Reynolds Tobacco Holdings, Brown & Williamson Tobacco Corp., and Liggett Group Inc.; and the railroad firms Union Pacific Corp. and Norfolk Southern Corp. A similar lawsuit against the federal government seeking $100 million was dismissed in 1995 by a federal appeals court.

No dollar figure was mentioned for the 2002 lawsuit, but an estimate of the value of work provided by slaves was placed at $40 million, which today could amount to more than $1 trillion, according to the lawsuit.

A judge for the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Illinois threw out the complaint, saying it was brought "more than a century after the end of the Civil War and the formal abolition of slavery." But the judge, Charles R. Norgle Sr., dismissed the lawsuit without prejudice, meaning it could be amended and filed again.

Reparations activists say that former slaves and their descendants sought restitution years ago but were turned away by hostile courts.

I.H. Dickerson of Nashville founded the Ex-Slave Mutual Relief, Bounty and Pension Association in 1897. His quest for reparations ended when the federal postal service accused him of receiving a money order under false pretenses. He was convicted and sentenced to 12 years in prison in 1901. His assistant, Callie D. House, was later tried, but the outcome is unknown.

Today's activists are more influential. In addition to Tillman and Ogletree, they include Rep. John Conyers Jr. (D-Mich.), who sponsors legislation to study reparations proposals for African Americans during each Congress, and a host of other public officials, groups and historians.

The National Coalition of Blacks for Reparations in America, or N'COBRA, was formed a year after the United States acknowledged wrongdoing and paid reparations to Japanese Americans.

Farmer-Paellmann, a former N'COBRA law clerk, is credited with the idea of challenging such corporations as Aetna and J.P. Morgan Chase to expose their ties to slavery. In the mid-1990s, she began researching the companies' pasts and publicized her findings.

Aetna Chairman John W. Rowe responded in April 2000. "The fact that Aetna had written policies on slaves more than 140 years ago was brought to the attention of Aetna's management. They were deeply disappointed and embarrassed."

Farmer-Paellmann said the apology was worth her work then and now.

"It's to get them to apologize and also ask them to pay restitution," she said. A trust fund was established at Carver Federal Savings Bank in Harlem, but attracted few donations, she said.

"Why is it important to pay restitution? Historically, the lack of financial capital has been a barrier to black progress," she said. "It's harder for us to get bank loans, and red lining is a vestige of slavery. It's about them helping us to heal the wounds they historically caused."
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on June 21, 2005, 07:20:20 AM
Great Post Omega. 
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: faith2005 on June 21, 2005, 08:07:39 AM
yeah, thats tight omegaman.

bp--rosewood is a good movie... :)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: smujd2007 on June 21, 2005, 10:43:40 AM
Thanks for posting that article, omegaman.  That is just shady, though.

How does everyone feel about reparations?  I personally don't think that they will accomplish much if given out, simply because the problem is so much more than money.  I think institutional racisim is the problem that needs to be combatted more than giving out money for wrongs done to our people.  Besides, who would pay whom, and how much? 
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Lawprofessor on June 21, 2005, 11:02:35 AM
Thanks for posting that article, omegaman.  That is just shady, though.

How does everyone feel about reparations?  I personally don't think that they will accomplish much if given out, simply because the problem is so much more than money.  I think institutional racisim is the problem that needs to be combatted more than giving out money for wrongs done to our people.  Besides, who would pay whom, and how much? 

I will take my 40 acres, they can keep the mule.
How about make companies that capitalized off of slavery pay the reparations?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: smujd2007 on June 21, 2005, 11:05:00 AM
But then, who do you make the check out too?  Do you make a class action settlement or something?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 21, 2005, 11:07:53 AM
But then, who do you make the check out too?  Do you make a class action settlement or something?

Me.  You make the check out to E's law school fund.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: angelus on June 21, 2005, 11:19:07 AM

How does everyone feel about reparations? 

Are we talking just for black folks? What about the Native Americans? What about the Irish, Italian, and Eastern europeans that were discriminated against in the 1800's? What about the Chinesse forced to build railroads under virtual slave labor? Where does it end?

Will throwing money at it solve the problem or is something deeper in need of changing. money never solves problems of ignorance and disrespect.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on June 21, 2005, 12:21:45 PM

How does everyone feel about reparations? 

Are we talking just for black folks? What about the Native Americans? What about the Irish, Italian, and Eastern europeans that were discriminated against in the 1800's? What about the Chinesse forced to build railroads under virtual slave labor? Where does it end?

Will throwing money at it solve the problem or is something deeper in need of changing. money never solves problems of ignorance and disrespect.

Will throwing people in jail solve our crime problems? No, but it is necessary though. The atonement for individual criminals and criminal companies is commonly accepted as jail and fines respectively.  So I'm all for money being "thrown at the problem" if these companies contributed to the problem itself.  Todays' incarnation of the problem is a lack of healthcare, lower quality education, discrimination in the workplace, housing inequalities..and so on.  These are things that can be practically addressed with money.  Who would pay whom? Companies that have contributed in any way to the slave trade should pay money into a managed fund (the model worked on by Johnny Cochran before he passed) and that fund be used to start a perpetual fellowship that could be used to focus on the lingering inequalities that face us..some of which I mentioned above.

It's not really that complicated.  Besides, if they could go through the complicated logistics involved in the trade of human beings, they can find a way to make this work!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on June 21, 2005, 12:27:10 PM
gotta love the lurkers that only post when we talk about issues dealing with racial disparities :D :D :D
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: faith2005 on June 21, 2005, 12:44:27 PM
thats tight bp. you have my approval! ;) angelus of course other people have been discriminated against. some of them have gotten reparations, some haven't. some of the groups you mentioned haven't experienced the same types of lingering effects of discrimination that black people have in this country. there is no other group that was similarly targeted by the U.S. govt. other than Native Americans (who received land grants aka reservations, and the right to self-governance, even though its a joke). I think thats why the case should be compelling. but because of the money involved it's going to take alot for folks to agree to give reparations.


How does everyone feel about reparations? 

Are we talking just for black folks? What about the Native Americans? What about the Irish, Italian, and Eastern europeans that were discriminated against in the 1800's? What about the Chinesse forced to build railroads under virtual slave labor? Where does it end?

Will throwing money at it solve the problem or is something deeper in need of changing. money never solves problems of ignorance and disrespect.

Will throwing people in jail solve our crime problems? No, but it is necessary though. The atonement for individual criminals and criminal companies is commonly accepted as jail and fines respectively.  So I'm all for money being "thrown at the problem" if these companies contributed to the problem itself.  Todays' incarnation of the problem is a lack of healthcare, lower quality education, discrimination in the workplace, housing inequalities..and so on.  These are things that can be practically addressed with money.  Who would pay whom? Companies that have contributed in any way to the slave trade should pay money into a managed fund (the model worked on by Johnny Cochran before he passed) and that fund be used to start a perpetual fellowship that could be used to focus on the lingering inequalities that face us..some of which I mentioned above.

It's not really that complicated.  Besides, if they could go through the complicated logistics involved in the trade of human beings, they can find a way to make this work!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: smujd2007 on June 21, 2005, 03:25:18 PM
Co-sign.  :D

gotta love the lurkers that only post when we talk about issues dealing with racial disparities :D :D :D
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _____ on June 21, 2005, 03:43:01 PM
While I think it would be good to make companies that benefitted from slavery pay into a large scholarship fund or something, how do you decide who pays what?

I mean, BofA bought Fleet, which had bought Providence (or whatever), which benefited over a hundred years ago.  Upon which company do you base the reparations?  BofA's present value? The value that Fleet had when B of A bought it?  The value that Providence had when Fleet bought it? Do you adjust the value for today's dolalrs?

I mean, in today's world of mergers, there is plenty of money in the BofA coffers that did NOT come from slavery... What will be the basis for making the calculation? Personally, I think that's the biggest hurdle--most of these companies that benefited do not exist in their original form anymore...

If/when they do pay out reparations, I think the money should go to a scholarship fund or something.  Giving a check to people would be too hard.  I mean, think of the possibility for fraud.  So then you'd have to prove it. 

But how many people can actually prove that they had slaves in their family anymore?  And I mean prove: "my great grandma told me so" probably won't be sufficient (for example, Native Americans have to be Card Holders in order to get their benefits...). 

So what about the people who don't have hundred plus year old documents any more?  They just don't get anything? (And, of course, the other side of the equation is people claiming benefits when they don't deserve them--ie people who emigrated voluntarily AFTER the civil war--it would be a sick and twisted thing to do, but money is a powerful motivator...)

Besides, I think that that money should go to help all blacks, because all of them suffer from discrimination in today's world, whether their ancestors were slaves or not...

So I think that's probably the best way to do it: set up a big scholarship fund and let all blacks apply to it.  Sure, there are already black scholarships available, but more is better... And education will help people way more than a one-time payment of $500 or whatever...  (I mean, even if they have to pay a billion dollars, there are millions of people and millions of descendants still living.  I mean, entire families... The check you'd get wouldn't go nearly as far as an education...)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on June 21, 2005, 03:49:49 PM
While I think it would be good to make companies that benefitted from slavery pay into a large scholarship fund or something, how do you decide who pays what?

I mean, BofA bought Fleet, which had bought Providence (or whatever), which benefited over a hundred years ago.  Upon which company do you base the reparations?  BofA's present value? The value that Fleet had when B of A bought it?  The value that Providence had when Fleet bought it? Do you adjust the value for today's dolalrs?

I mean, in today's world of mergers, there is plenty of money in the BofA coffers that did NOT come from slavery... What will be the basis for making the calculation? Personally, I think that's the biggest hurdle--most of these companies that benefited do not exist in their original form anymore...

If/when they do pay out reparations, I think the money should go to a scholarship fund or something.  Giving a check to people would be too hard.  I mean, think of the possibility for fraud.  So then you'd have to prove it. 

But how many people can actually prove that they had slaves in their family anymore?  And I mean prove: "my great grandma told me so" probably won't be sufficient (for example, Native Americans have to be Card Holders in order to get their benefits...). 

So what about the people who don't have hundred plus year old documents any more?  They just don't get anything? (And, of course, the other side of the equation is people claiming benefits when they don't deserve them--ie people who emigrated voluntarily AFTER the civil war--it would be a sick and twisted thing to do, but money is a powerful motivator...)

Besides, I think that that money should go to help all blacks, because all of them suffer from discrimination in today's world, whether their ancestors were slaves or not...

So I think that's probably the best way to do it: set up a big scholarship fund and let all blacks apply to it.  Sure, there are already black scholarships available, but more is better... And education will help people way more than a one-time payment of $500 or whatever...  (I mean, even if they have to pay a billion dollars, there are millions of people and millions of descendants still living.  I mean, entire families... The check you'd get wouldn't go nearly as far as an education...)

We agree on this anodduck.  Payments would be made to a fund.  That's what I outlined in my post when I spoke about creating a grant making fellowship.  As far as determining what each company's payment would be (in a world of mergers and such) that is a problem that can be worked on and figured out.  It's not going to be easy, but there is a wealth of records out there that can help with the process.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: smujd2007 on June 21, 2005, 03:56:22 PM
I think its more complicated than we all want to admit,though. Just getting people to part with their money for something that they feel they did not cause (though they continue to perpetuate through cheap labor, racism, and other things that I won't mention) would be a tremendous chore.
 :-\ 

But I think you bring up an EXCELLENT point when you say that they figured out how to do large scale slavery and human trafficking, so figuring out how to do reparations shouldn't be impossible.


How does everyone feel about reparations?  

Are we talking just for black folks? What about the Native Americans? What about the Irish, Italian, and Eastern europeans that were discriminated against in the 1800's? What about the Chinesse forced to build railroads under virtual slave labor? Where does it end?

Will throwing money at it solve the problem or is something deeper in need of changing. money never solves problems of ignorance and disrespect.

Will throwing people in jail solve our crime problems? No, but it is necessary though. The atonement for individual criminals and criminal companies is commonly accepted as jail and fines respectively.  So I'm all for money being "thrown at the problem" if these companies contributed to the problem itself.  Todays' incarnation of the problem is a lack of healthcare, lower quality education, discrimination in the workplace, housing inequalities..and so on.  These are things that can be practically addressed with money.  Who would pay whom? Companies that have contributed in any way to the slave trade should pay money into a managed fund (the model worked on by Johnny Cochran before he passed) and that fund be used to start a perpetual fellowship that could be used to focus on the lingering inequalities that face us..some of which I mentioned above.

It's not really that complicated. Besides, if they could go through the complicated logistics involved in the trade of human beings, they can find a way to make this work!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _____ on June 21, 2005, 04:02:50 PM

But I think you bring up an EXCELLENT point when you say that they figured out how to do large scale slavery and human trafficking, so figuring out how to do reparations shouldn't be impossible.


Um, not to be overly morose or anything, but human trafficking and slavery aren't really that hard to manage when they are legal--which they were...  It was based on a live-stock principle, which is why its so abhorrent, but trafficking is really not that complex...

I mean, all the human trafficking that goes on today is illegal, which is why it is (rightfully) difficult to do.  But if it were legal, it wouldn't be nearly as hard to coordinate... So I'm not sure that that analogy works.

Don't get me wrong, the practice is and was absolutely hideous--just not that complex to pull off...
Quote
Quote
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on June 21, 2005, 04:50:07 PM

But I think you bring up an EXCELLENT point when you say that they figured out how to do large scale slavery and human trafficking, so figuring out how to do reparations shouldn't be impossible.


Um, not to be overly morose or anything, but human trafficking and slavery aren't really that hard to manage when they are legal--which they were...  It was based on a live-stock principle, which is why its so abhorrent, but trafficking is really not that complex...

I mean, all the human trafficking that goes on today is illegal, which is why it is (rightfully) difficult to do.  But if it were legal, it wouldn't be nearly as hard to coordinate... So I'm not sure that that analogy works.

Don't get me wrong, the practice is and was absolutely hideous--just not that complex to pull off...
Quote
Quote

Just because it was legal does not make it any less comlex though. Think of the technology of the time though annoduck.  Having to find non-perishable food that would last the two to three  months that it could take during the middle passage.  Goods had to be bought in England to be exchanged for slaves.  Then new goods were bought to be sold in England and North America.  Then goods that African traders wanted were bought again, and they would return to Africa.  That entire process could take a year to complete.  It was no small undertaking. Furthermore the slave trade continued long after the British abolished it, so for many years traders had to be dodging British Naval ships.  It was no walk in the park.  It was a huge undertaking.  Plus there was no Weather channel, no GPS systems, no vitamin C pills, no university trained translators....and so on.  The fact that it was legal would have been little consolation when you had to think about the logistics involved.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _____ on June 21, 2005, 05:02:32 PM

But I think you bring up an EXCELLENT point when you say that they figured out how to do large scale slavery and human trafficking, so figuring out how to do reparations shouldn't be impossible.


Um, not to be overly morose or anything, but human trafficking and slavery aren't really that hard to manage when they are legal--which they were...  It was based on a live-stock principle, which is why its so abhorrent, but trafficking is really not that complex...

I mean, all the human trafficking that goes on today is illegal, which is why it is (rightfully) difficult to do.  But if it were legal, it wouldn't be nearly as hard to coordinate... So I'm not sure that that analogy works.

Don't get me wrong, the practice is and was absolutely hideous--just not that complex to pull off...
Quote
Quote

Just because it was legal does not make it any less comlex though. Think of the technology of the time though annoduck.  Having to find non-perishable food that would last the two to three  months that it could take during the middle passage.  Goods had to be bought in England to be exchanged for slaves.  Then new goods were bought to be sold in England and North America.  Then goods that African traders wanted were bought again, and they would return to Africa.  That entire process could take a year to complete.  It was no small undertaking. Furthermore the slave trade continued long after the British abolished it, so for many years traders had to be dodging British Naval ships.  It was no walk in the park.  It was a huge undertaking.  Plus there was no Weather channel, no GPS systems, no vitamin C pills, no university trained translators....and so on.  The fact that it was legal would have been little consolation when you had to think about the logistics involved.

Very true--I'm just not sure that the slave trade was much more complex than any other ship-based trade of the day...
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Omegaman on June 21, 2005, 06:21:21 PM

But I think you bring up an EXCELLENT point when you say that they figured out how to do large scale slavery and human trafficking, so figuring out how to do reparations shouldn't be impossible.


Um, not to be overly morose or anything, but human trafficking and slavery aren't really that hard to manage when they are legal--which they were...  It was based on a live-stock principle, which is why its so abhorrent, but trafficking is really not that complex...

I mean, all the human trafficking that goes on today is illegal, which is why it is (rightfully) difficult to do.  But if it were legal, it wouldn't be nearly as hard to coordinate... So I'm not sure that that analogy works.

Don't get me wrong, the practice is and was absolutely hideous--just not that complex to pull off...
Quote
Quote

Just because it was legal does not make it any less comlex though. Think of the technology of the time though annoduck.  Having to find non-perishable food that would last the two to three  months that it could take during the middle passage.  Goods had to be bought in England to be exchanged for slaves.  Then new goods were bought to be sold in England and North America.  Then goods that African traders wanted were bought again, and they would return to Africa.  That entire process could take a year to complete.  It was no small undertaking. Furthermore the slave trade continued long after the British abolished it, so for many years traders had to be dodging British Naval ships.  It was no walk in the park.  It was a huge undertaking.  Plus there was no Weather channel, no GPS systems, no vitamin C pills, no university trained translators....and so on.  The fact that it was legal would have been little consolation when you had to think about the logistics involved.

Very true--I'm just not sure that the slave trade was much more complex than any other ship-based trade of the day...

Slave trading was more complex based on the fact that it was human cargo, forget vitamin c, Antibiotics , or immunizations were not around at the time so one episode of a virus such as influenza, or even dysentary would wipe out your whole cargo, which is why so many were thrown over board,antibiotic dont treat viruses anyway. Good could spoil but it would take time, a virus 1 week into the voyage and most of your cargo was destroyed. Im reading this book; The Great Influenza: The Epic Story of the Deadliest Plague In History In America in 1918 in just 52 weeks it killed 100 million. The book states in 24 weeks more died than have died in 24 years from AIDS
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: HBCU.EDU on June 21, 2005, 06:31:32 PM

Less than half of blacks own homes compared to more than three-fourths of whites.



With that said.. I’m here to do whatever I can to help you guys in your quest for wealth-building and home ownership.. if you are considering purchasing a home.. I can help you get an excellent deal anywhere in this country… a very dear friend of mine is an African American loan officer  and she works with all types of credit.. finds excellent deals in spite of student loans.. so if you’re interested.. feel free to PM me for further details…
Onward and Upward in the struggle!

Edit: As a barred attorney I can also help with some of the seller consession (ie builder/seller contracts)



Wow blk. You can help me purchase a home? I'll PM you today!! :P
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: ScurvyWench on June 22, 2005, 11:58:35 AM

Less than half of blacks own homes compared to more than three-fourths of whites.



With that said.. I’m here to do whatever I can to help you guys in your quest for wealth-building and home ownership.. if you are considering purchasing a home.. I can help you get an excellent deal anywhere in this country… a very dear friend of mine is an African American loan officer  and she works with all types of credit.. finds excellent deals in spite of student loans.. so if you’re interested.. feel free to PM me for further details…
Onward and Upward in the struggle!

Edit: As a barred attorney I can also help with some of the seller consession (ie builder/seller contracts)



Wow blk. You can help me purchase a home? I'll PM you today!! :P

When I was looking to buy a home, Blk hooked me up with a fabolous loan officer --her best friend. This woman has bent over backwards, anticipated every question or possible holdup and helped us to prepare for it, she's jumped through hoops for us and our very unique situation and has done it all with a smile. I couldn't imagine that the process of finding the right mortgage and buying in a different state could be so painless, but alas it was. And in the process, I feel that I've made a great friend. Whenever Blk or the loan officer need anything, I will gladly be there to support them.

Other than my personal experience and endorsement for Blk and her best friend, I must say that taking this step to building equity and preparing well for my future instead of just living for today has put me on the road to financial success--one that my mother has never been able to achieve. You have to make the choice to look to the future and to better yourself as a whole. Sometimes that means sacrifices, but keep your eye on the big picture and the life that you want to have and that you want to be able to pass down to your children.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on June 22, 2005, 12:21:13 PM
Yay :).. I am so glad that I could help Scurvy... it gives me great joy to know that your homebuying process was so easy... and to know that I had a hand in that makes me smile...
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: smujd2007 on June 22, 2005, 06:32:34 PM
Yay for BLSD comaraderie!!

Thanks blk for helping scurvy and everyone else on the board . . .special thanks to the loan officer. . . this is a very cool story.


 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Victor on June 26, 2005, 10:56:30 PM
How do you guys feel about the Supreme Court's decision to allow the government to seize homes?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Victor on June 28, 2005, 08:53:44 AM
How do you guys feel about the Supreme Court's decision to allow the government to seize homes?


Wow . . . nobody is talking about this huh?


Just shows how this board is dead . . . . .



Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: faith2005 on June 28, 2005, 09:42:21 AM
we did talk about this victor a little bit. on one of the other threads.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on June 28, 2005, 10:23:24 AM
basically..and if an article was posted as point of reference perhaps there would have been more discussion on this thread about it...


we did talk about this victor a little bit. on one of the other threads.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 28, 2005, 12:06:50 PM
the day they take my house, I'm calling up Jesse and we're marching.  No justice, no peace!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Darq E on June 30, 2005, 11:37:10 AM
the day they take my house, I'm calling up Jesse and we're marching.  No justice, no peace!

Granted, I'm not his biggest fan, but wouldn't he be the last person you'd want to call?

I mean, keep in mind that four justices who voted against this were the more conservative appointees - Rehnquist, O'Connor, Scalia, & Thomas

Of the five who voted for it, four of the five are clearly of the moderate/progressive bent - Stevens, Souter, Ginsberg & Breyer.

I was surprised by Scalia's vote in this instance.

My point is is that it wasn't people who thought like Jesse Jackson who voted for this measure.... quite the opposite actually.

I used to be very liberal, but as I've gotten older and accumulated a few dollars and things to my name, I'm definitely become more centrist.  If I buy a piece of property, I d@mn straight to keep it until I decide otherwise.  It seems to me that it was majority liberal types who want to take it from me.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 30, 2005, 12:30:57 PM
the day they take my house, I'm calling up Jesse and we're marching.  No justice, no peace!

Granted, I'm not his biggest fan, but wouldn't he be the last person you'd want to call?

I mean, keep in mind that four justices who voted against this were the more conservative appointees - Rehnquist, O'Connor, Scalia, & Thomas

Of the five who voted for it, four of the five are clearly of the moderate/progressive bent - Stevens, Souter, Ginsberg & Breyer.

I was surprised by Scalia's vote in this instance.

My point is is that it wasn't people who thought like Jesse Jackson who voted for this measure.... quite the opposite actually.

I used to be very liberal, but as I've gotten older and accumulated a few dollars and things to my name, I'm definitely become more centrist.  If I buy a piece of property, I d@mn straight to keep it until I decide otherwise.  It seems to me that it was majority liberal types who want to take it from me.

who are you?   >:(
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Rudy Huckleberry on June 30, 2005, 12:33:47 PM
"Darq E"?  Give me a break. >:( >:( >:(
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Statistic on June 30, 2005, 12:36:55 PM
oooooh Darq E = darkie 

lol terrible
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 30, 2005, 12:38:45 PM
alright, which one of you coons decided to get funny? >:(
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Darq E on June 30, 2005, 01:08:15 PM
Wow, didn't think I'd caused such a ruckess.

I'm a 43 year old creole from Louisiana.  My grandfather on my father's side was white, a Frenchman.  All the rest African American, Colored, Black, whatever you like to call it.

My nickname has been 'darkie' amongst my friends since I was a boy.  I thought making it pseudo French (Darque -> Darq E) was rather funny.

I've made enough in my former profession that I've decided to go back to school - in this case law school. 

I came across this board about 4 or 5 weeks ago.  I've been lurking ever since.  Some opinions I find interesting, to say the least.  Some encouraging, some discouraging.

The Supreme Court opinion really upset me, as it's hard enough to become a home owner w/out having to worry about the government taking it away from me.

Sorry if I upset anybody with my post.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Rudy Huckleberry on June 30, 2005, 01:21:17 PM
You didn't upset anyone...but why the heck would your "friends" call you Darkie? 

I'd smack people if they starting calling me racial slurs.  Can you imagine?  "Hey Mammy, girl, what's up?" WRONG!!!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on June 30, 2005, 01:29:00 PM
Beat down!!!!! >:(


You didn't upset anyone...but why the heck would your "friends" call you Darkie? 

I'd smack people if they starting calling me racial slurs.  Can you imagine?  "Hey Mammy, girl, what's up?" WRONG!!!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Darq E on June 30, 2005, 01:43:20 PM
You didn't upset anyone...but why the heck would your "friends" call you Darkie? 

I'd smack people if they starting calling me racial slurs.  Can you imagine?  "Hey Mammy, girl, what's up?" WRONG!!!

It's b/c I'm just very, very black.  On top of that, I had to spend most of my free time outside throughout my childhood (biking around delivering papers and helping at a gas station) and teens (delivering produce to local markets).  With all the sun damage that that entails, I got even darker.

I didn't say my parents called me that.  Just my close friends.

It didn't offend me any more than one of my friends calling me the "N" word (I'm not sure if using that word permitted on this board, so I'll just be respectful and stick with the "N").

Still, in the spirit of friendship, would it make everyone more comfortable if I changed my screen name?  Rather make friends than enemies....
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 30, 2005, 04:33:53 PM
You didn't upset anyone...but why the heck would your "friends" call you Darkie? 

I'd smack people if they starting calling me racial slurs.  Can you imagine?  "Hey Mammy, girl, what's up?" WRONG!!!

It's b/c I'm just very, very black.  On top of that, I had to spend most of my free time outside throughout my childhood (biking around delivering papers and helping at a gas station) and teens (delivering produce to local markets).  With all the sun damage that that entails, I got even darker.

I didn't say my parents called me that.  Just my close friends.

It didn't offend me any more than one of my friends calling me the "N" word (I'm not sure if using that word permitted on this board, so I'll just be respectful and stick with the "N").

Still, in the spirit of friendship, would it make everyone more comfortable if I changed my screen name?  Rather make friends than enemies....

my vote is for a change.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Statistic on June 30, 2005, 04:51:49 PM
i say keep it. use this as your avatar

(http://www.hoslap.net/pimp.gif)

You might have to scale it down.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on June 30, 2005, 06:27:01 PM

rbg is back :D

i say keep it. use this as your avatar

(http://www.hoslap.net/pimp.gif)

You might have to scale it down.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: THE BLUE SWEATER on July 06, 2005, 07:31:20 AM
As far as a housing bubble there is a reasonable chance the liquidity of the housing market could be in danger. This is through the banks making the loans. With the increased honest demand for housing banks have been taking advantage of people offering interest only loans that in the worst case have a negative amortization. (meaning you actually owe more than when you started at certain points). As the banks became more liberal in their lending there was an increase in defaulted loans. This curbed the amount of lending in the financial market. Now with the increased prices in homes the only way to sustain this is with increased lending in the finance markets. As the banks bow out due to higher default risk the market (housing prices) will have to adjust to compensate for the decreased lending/decreased purchasing of homes. Now in regards to timelines this won't happen anytime in the near future because were dealing primarily in mortgages. However their is a real risk in the housing market colapsing not because of false demand in housing, but from unwarranted lending in the finance market. This same scenario happened in Japan about 15 years ago and the financial industry has yet to recover.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: asdf on July 08, 2005, 02:54:35 AM
it's not nearly as serious as slavery, but how would you guys feel about reparations for riots? of course it'd have to go both ways. blacks would receive reparations for the tulsa riots, but other blacks (and all other rioters) would pay reparations for the watts riots, the LA riots of 92, and the cincinnati riots, for instance.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: NightyKnight on July 12, 2005, 01:53:54 PM
it's not nearly as serious as slavery, but how would you guys feel about reparations for riots? of course it'd have to go both ways. blacks would receive reparations for the tulsa riots, but other blacks (and all other rioters) would pay reparations for the watts riots, the LA riots of 92, and the cincinnati riots, for instance.

I don't don't think it's a good idea for a couple of reasons:

1.)  No one will take is seriously.  It'll be viewed as a social money grab (which, respectfully, it is).

2.)  Locating & determining true victims of the riots would be an incredibly time consuming task, and who's expected to pay for it?  I sure as hell wouldn't want my tax dollars spent this way.

3.)  We have far, far more pressing needs in this country.  I'd rather spend the dollars considered for 'riot reparations' on programs that foster a rebuilding of the black family, reduction in teenage & unwed pregnancies, and encourage education.  That will benefit us far more than something like this.

Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: faith2005 on July 12, 2005, 01:58:45 PM
tulsa deserves reparations. the la riots and the cincinnati riots all took place in black neighborhoods, so it wasn't a systematic way of torturing and killing according to racial groups or even in a white neighborhood. who would pay reparations? the families in watts? to the Korean store-owners? or to their next door neighbor? You can adcovate it, but it doesn't relate to the tulsa situation at all imo.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: NightyKnight on July 12, 2005, 02:25:12 PM
What bothers me about the whole reparations thing is that we know it would cost untold billions upon billions of dollars, perhaps more.  Given that slavery was only systemic in the Southern states, shouldn't only those state governments be responsible?  Could they declare bankruptcy ala Orange County, CA? 

Also, what would happen to our national economy if such a large amount of debt was added to it?  The markets wouldn't react very favorably - might it even cause at least a recession, maybe even a depression?

Heck, would we have to go back even further than that and offer reparations to every Native American here in the United States who lost their land to the U.S. Government?  Can you imagine the appreciation in their tribal land from the 1600's until now?

While we're at it, could we also demand payment from those South African countries that sold slaves to the European countries.  And then in turn could we get money from those European countries who sold those slaves to the U.S.?

It's all such a slippery slope.  The more I think about the more troubled I get about the whole thing.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: elemnopee on July 12, 2005, 02:27:17 PM
What bothers me about the whole reparations thing is that we know it would cost untold billions upon billions of dollars, perhaps more.  Given that slavery was only systemic in the Southern states, shouldn't only those state governments be responsible?  Could they declare bankruptcy ala Orange County, CA? 

Also, what would happen to our national economy if such a large amount of debt was added to it?  The markets wouldn't react very favorably - might it even cause at least a recession, maybe even a depression?

Heck, would we have to go back even further than that and offer reparations to every Native American here in the United States who lost their land to the U.S. Government?  Can you imagine the appreciation in their tribal land from the 1600's until now?

While we're at it, could we also demand payment from those South African countries that sold slaves to the European countries.  And then in turn could we get money from those European countries who sold those slaves to the U.S.?

It's all such a slippery slope.  The more I think about the more troubled I get about the whole thing.

Yes, yes.  So do you support a societal system that assists the most disadvantaged in lieu of direct compensation for injustice?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: faith2005 on July 12, 2005, 02:33:02 PM
the govt. might go deeper into debt. but its already in an unsustainable state in some people's opinions right? slavery wasn't just systemic in the southern states, thats why banks like wachovia and bank of america/fleet as well as insurance companies and brown university have all been subject to private investigations and inquiries into their past dealings with slavery. i do think native peoples should be paid for their land. its ridiculous that they continue to be the bottom of every possible socio-economic measure available, and yet, its looked at like some kind of anomaly. we all owe them
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: NightyKnight on July 12, 2005, 02:41:48 PM
You seem pretty quick to dismiss my concerns.  That's troubling.

What I cannot support are those actions which would hurt American businesses and/or wreck the American economy.  

All of us, and I mean all of us, will be looking to these companies for jobs once we get out of school.  If that money is being used for reparations i/s/o being used for developing their businesses, who will we work for?  

And honestly, do you really trust the Federal government to administer such a system fairly?  Can't you just smell the simmering corruption that would be rife in such a program?  I'm sorry, but it's just the truth that the U.S. government CAN'T handle such a task.  From Title I (in the 60s) to Head Start (in the 90s), just about every program they attempt to administer to 'help' us has been a collosal failure.

Also, I'm not comfortable applying 21st century mentalities on 18th century people.  I'm sure some of the activities being done today will seem crude and barbaric in the 24th century.  Should generations not yet born be responsible for the actions of today?

I'm focused on kicking butt in law school and making good money in a few years.  I'll need these companies who are the focus of the reparations, and the U.S. economy, to both be in good shape when I'm out.  Reparations won't help them, so consequently, they won't help me..... or any of us.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: NightyKnight on July 12, 2005, 02:47:09 PM
the govt. might go deeper into debt. but its already in an unsustainable state in some people's opinions right? slavery wasn't just systemic in the southern states, thats why banks like wachovia and bank of america/fleet as well as insurance companies and brown university have all been subject to private investigations and inquiries into their past dealings with slavery. i do think native peoples should be paid for their land. its ridiculous that they continue to be the bottom of every possible socio-economic measure available, and yet, its looked at like some kind of anomaly. we all owe them

But Ms. Faith, that money just won't magically appear.  It'll come out of either U.S. taxpayers (meaning you and me) and/or from U.S. companies, who of course will HAVE to raise their prices to pass along their higher costs to us. 

If they have to raise prices, they'll in all likelihood sell fewer products (I shop at Wal Mart, not Target, b/c it's cheaper and I can get more stuff). 

If their profits suffer, there business can't grow.  If they can grow, there won't exactly be a hiring explosion.  Isn't that kinda obvious?

Once again, we'll look to these big companies for jobs.  We can't drain them financially with reparations on the one hand, and expect lucrative jobs from them on the other. It just doesn't work that way!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: faith2005 on July 12, 2005, 03:53:23 PM
i agree with you. at the same time, the point of it is redistribution right? so we either pay one way or pay another, or just leave some people at the bottom. and right now the country is choosing option c. and i don't believe thats correct either. also, those companies that benefitted definitely need to pay in some way shape or form. i don't know how, but the benefits are too long lasting and far reaching to ignore altogether i think.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: NightyKnight on July 12, 2005, 07:48:42 PM
i agree with you. at the same time, the point of it is redistribution right? so we either pay one way or pay another, or just leave some people at the bottom. and right now the country is choosing option c. and i don't believe thats correct either. also, those companies that benefitted definitely need to pay in some way shape or form. i don't know how, but the benefits are too long lasting and far reaching to ignore altogether i think.

Hello Ms. Faith,

Interesting.  Is the whole point redistribution?  Am I, a late, late twenty-something black dude, owed anything?  I mean, I didn't have to risk my butt for any civil rights like my grandparents did.  Heck, most of the crappola treatment I got in school was from other brothers b/c I acted 'too white' in school.  Granted, I know I've been flat out discrimated against in some instances, but by and large, I think most people have given me a fair shake, or at least acted that way to my face. 

I guess I'm far, far more confortable with the idea of these companies being asked/required to donate monies to UNCF for college scholarships and private school vouchers.  The best way we can honor the sacrifices of our people is too educate ourselves for those jobs which in turn will put us in positions to assist our children and our children's children.  That means education in fields like math, science, medicine, etc.  Those universally respected, lucrative, and needed fields will enable us to better our socio economic positions AND make greater inroads into acceptence (and respect!) with the rest of society.

As far as direct reparations, or any other assistance.... well, if it's all the same to you guys, I'm just gonna take a pass on that.  I mean, how much respect  will our gain from any of you, or even have for myself, if I just expect a handout?  Besides, I like to believe, at this stage of the game, I'll be fine withhout them.

Peace All
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on July 12, 2005, 08:40:19 PM
i agree with you. at the same time, the point of it is redistribution right? so we either pay one way or pay another, or just leave some people at the bottom. and right now the country is choosing option c. and i don't believe thats correct either. also, those companies that benefitted definitely need to pay in some way shape or form. i don't know how, but the benefits are too long lasting and far reaching to ignore altogether i think.

Hello Ms. Faith,

Interesting.  Is the whole point redistribution?  Am I, a late, late twenty-something black dude, owed anything?  I mean, I didn't have to risk my butt for any civil rights like my grandparents did.  Heck, most of the crappola treatment I got in school was from other brothers b/c I acted 'too white' in school.  Granted, I know I've been flat out discrimated against in some instances, but by and large, I think most people have given me a fair shake, or at least acted that way to my face. 

I guess I'm far, far more confortable with the idea of these companies being asked/required to donate monies to UNCF for college scholarships and private school vouchers.  The best way we can honor the sacrifices of our people is too educate ourselves for those jobs which in turn will put us in positions to assist our children and our children's children.  That means education in fields like math, science, medicine, etc.  Those universally respected, lucrative, and needed fields will enable us to better our socio economic positions AND make greater inroads into acceptence (and respect!) with the rest of society.

As far as direct reparations, or any other assistance.... well, if it's all the same to you guys, I'm just gonna take a pass on that.  I mean, how much respect  will our gain from any of you, or even have for myself, if I just expect a handout?  Besides, I like to believe, at this stage of the game, I'll be fine withhout them.

Peace All

First of all, quit calling her Ms. Faith.  That sounds like some condescending *&^%.
Okay, let's see what you said:


Given that slavery was only systemic in the Southern states, shouldn't only those state governments be responsible?


Systemic yes, but there were folks owning slaves as far north as the Canadian border.  Slaves worked on building Wall Street, yes Manhattan.

Also, what would happen to our national economy if such a large amount of debt was added to it?  The markets wouldn't react very favorably - might it even cause at least a recession, maybe even a depression?

The same way that one of the same corporations that benefited from the slave trade can afford to pay a single CEO severance of 400 million dollars, they can find ways to pay fines for crimes committed.  America will be fine.


I'm focused on kicking butt in law school and making good money in a few years.  I'll need these companies who are the focus of the reparations, and the U.S. economy, to both be in good shape when I'm out.  Reparations won't help them, so consequently, they won't help me..... or any of us.


So that should be the standard then.  Let's not punish Walmart for locking workers inside the buildings and forcing them to work overtime for free, because you are worried that the price of dishwashing liquid might be too high for your liking?

Also, I'm not comfortable applying 21st century mentalities on 18th century people.  I'm sure some of the activities being done today will seem crude and barbaric in the 24th century.  Should generations not yet born be responsible for the actions of today?

It's about companies that are responsible for the actions of today, being held accountable for those actions....has nothing to do with generations not yet born.  The companies that would be involved in the reperations push are companies that were there during that time, and were involved in the sale/collateralization of HUMAN BEINGS!

Once again, we'll look to these big companies for jobs.  We can't drain them financially with reparations on the one hand, and expect lucrative jobs from them on the other. It just doesn't work that way!

You are a little too concerned with protecting these companies.  Why didn't you tell the Attorney General of New York to not fine Merill Lynch $400 million because the company might suffer.  Listen, do the crime, pay the fine. 

I mean, how much respect  will our gain from any of you, or even have for myself, if I just expect a handout?  Besides, I like to believe, at this stage of the game, I'll be fine withhout them.


That's great that you are fine without help, more power to you brother.  Just because you are fine however, doesn't mean that this is the case for everyone.  If I were you, I would respect myself more for not catering to companies that traded in the souls of black folks.



Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on July 12, 2005, 08:44:10 PM
three cheers for our resident hearthrob  :-*
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: smujd2007 on July 12, 2005, 10:34:24 PM
Hip hip hooray!!!
Hip hip hooray!!!
Hip hip hooray!!!

How are you doing agitator?

three cheers for our resident hearthrob :-*
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on July 12, 2005, 11:20:45 PM
Hip hip hooray!!!
Hip hip hooray!!!
Hip hip hooray!!!

How are you doing agitator?

three cheers for our resident hearthrob :-*


eh smu, I'm surviving.  yourself?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: smujd2007 on July 12, 2005, 11:32:09 PM
I'm good . . .could use some sleep, but I'm still wired to be awake . . . :-\

Hip hip hooray!!!
Hip hip hooray!!!
Hip hip hooray!!!

How are you doing agitator?

three cheers for our resident hearthrob :-*


eh smu, I'm surviving. yourself?

Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: dbgirl on July 12, 2005, 11:54:03 PM
In case anyone is concerned or interested ...
I'm going to try to buy a house out here in Oakland, CA.
I signed up for first-time homebuyers counseling and am going to go through "homebuying for dummies" training, at which point I'm sure they will tell me I can't afford a house  :(  (A ghetto house in Oakland is the price of a mansion somewhere else).
But, I really kind of have to move because I got my daughter into art school in Oakland, and we live 40 miles away right now (me and my brilliant ideas.)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on July 12, 2005, 11:58:07 PM
if you need a loan officer i can help you....at the very least with a better understanding of your options...

and u should know that people are indeed concerned and interested here on this board :)


In case anyone is concerned or interested ...
I'm going to try to buy a house out here in Oakland, CA.
I signed up for first-time homebuyers counseling and am going to go through "homebuying for dummies" training, at which point I'm sure they will tell me I can't afford a house  :(  (A ghetto house in Oakland is the price of a mansion somewhere else).
But, I really kind of have to move because I got my daughter into art school in Oakland, and we live 40 miles away right now (me and my brilliant ideas.)

Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: smujd2007 on July 12, 2005, 11:58:55 PM
Hopefully things will work out for you, dbgirl.  :)

In case anyone is concerned or interested ...
I'm going to try to buy a house out here in Oakland, CA.
I signed up for first-time homebuyers counseling and am going to go through "homebuying for dummies" training, at which point I'm sure they will tell me I can't afford a house :( (A ghetto house in Oakland is the price of a mansion somewhere else).
But, I really kind of have to move because I got my daughter into art school in Oakland, and we live 40 miles away right now (me and my brilliant ideas.)

Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: dbgirl on July 13, 2005, 12:36:47 AM
Thanks SMU and Blk, I appreciate the support.
I know I need to straighten some things out financially, but I really do want this to happen.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Omegaman on July 13, 2005, 12:58:44 AM
i agree with you. at the same time, the point of it is redistribution right? so we either pay one way or pay another, or just leave some people at the bottom. and right now the country is choosing option c. and i don't believe thats correct either. also, those companies that benefitted definitely need to pay in some way shape or form. i don't know how, but the benefits are too long lasting and far reaching to ignore altogether i think.

Hello Ms. Faith,

Interesting.  Is the whole point redistribution?  Am I, a late, late twenty-something black dude, owed anything?  I mean, I didn't have to risk my butt for any civil rights like my grandparents did.  Heck, most of the crappola treatment I got in school was from other brothers b/c I acted 'too white' in school.  Granted, I know I've been flat out discrimated against in some instances, but by and large, I think most people have given me a fair shake, or at least acted that way to my face. 

I guess I'm far, far more confortable with the idea of these companies being asked/required to donate monies to UNCF for college scholarships and private school vouchers.  The best way we can honor the sacrifices of our people is too educate ourselves for those jobs which in turn will put us in positions to assist our children and our children's children.  That means education in fields like math, science, medicine, etc.  Those universally respected, lucrative, and needed fields will enable us to better our socio economic positions AND make greater inroads into acceptence (and respect!) with the rest of society.

As far as direct reparations, or any other assistance.... well, if it's all the same to you guys, I'm just gonna take a pass on that.  I mean, how much respect  will our gain from any of you, or even have for myself, if I just expect a handout?  Besides, I like to believe, at this stage of the game, I'll be fine withhout them.

Peace All


"Reparations ain't gon' do nothin' but make Cadillac the #1 dealership in America"
Eddie (Cedric the Entertainer)
from the movie: Barbershop
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: smujd2007 on July 13, 2005, 07:30:53 AM
Let us know how things work out. Blk's right.  We do care.  :)

Thanks SMU and Blk, I appreciate the support.
I know I need to straighten some things out financially, but I really do want this to happen.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: NightyKnight on July 13, 2005, 08:16:30 AM
Quote
First of all, quit calling her Ms. Faith.  That sounds like some condescending sh*t.

BP,

It's obvious that you and I are of two very, very different minds when it comes to the concept of reparations.  You're determined to look backwards - from your screen name, to sig pic, to views.  "Live in the past, die in the past" is how my pop raised me.  I'm just not gonna hold on to anger, sorry.  I could rebut your points, but it ultimately wouldn't change anything, so I'll spare myself the time.

As far as calling Faith, "Ms. Faith" - I was raised to call every sister I met Ms. or Mrs., regardless of the situation.  It's just a simple matter of respect, and you should try it sometime.  So I'll thank you not to decide for me what is or isn't condescending. 

Good luck rattling your mentals chains for some more government jack.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on July 13, 2005, 11:18:00 AM
can't we all just get along?  :(
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: angmill08 on July 13, 2005, 12:21:01 PM
In case anyone is concerned or interested ...
I'm going to try to buy a house out here in Oakland, CA.
I signed up for first-time homebuyers counseling and am going to go through "homebuying for dummies" training, at which point I'm sure they will tell me I can't afford a house  :(  (A ghetto house in Oakland is the price of a mansion somewhere else).
But, I really kind of have to move because I got my daughter into art school in Oakland, and we live 40 miles away right now (me and my brilliant ideas.)


dbgirl:

The market in CA, from what I read, is really hot, right? If you buy now, wouldn't you be buying at market peak? You've probably already considered this, but I just want to throw in a few words of caution...

Please do a cost-benefit analysis on buying now vrs renting in Oakland now with a plan to buy down the road. I know the feeling of being anxious to buy and being worried that you'll be left out of home ownership. Owning a home is a great wealth building tool and I'm not discouraging anyone from buying a home, but maybe buying a home right now in the SF area is not a great investment -- I don't know, but I have to wonder. I was thinking about buying a property in Washington DC (another hot market) and decided it would be better financially to rent for a while until the market cools.

It's hard to resist being swept up in the home buying frenzy... everyone is buying a house, everyone wants to buy a house, home repair shows are all over TV... but my brother is an investment banker, and he told me, "When you're on an airplane or something, and the random guy next to you is talking about buying stocks, that's a bad time to buy stocks." Meaning, buy low, sell high. When everyone wants to buy, prices are high. Supply and demand. Maybe there is a better way to invest your money right now rather than real estate? Just wondering. Good luck with it!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on July 13, 2005, 12:24:24 PM
Buy real estate in Houston.. it's affordable. . rent it out it'll pay some of your bills ;)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: HBCU.EDU on July 13, 2005, 12:29:53 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050713/ap_on_bi_ge/worldcom_ebbers_48;_ylt=As_VIgn8zBLQtkby0Gpr8g_D_P0h;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

Bernard Ebbers, who as the once-swaggering CEO of WorldCom oversaw the largest corporate fraud in U.S. history, wept in court Wednesday when a judge sentenced him to 25 years in prison
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: dbgirl on July 13, 2005, 12:54:11 PM
Hi angmill,

I appreciate the words of caution but I just don't see the market cooling off. From my experience, appreciation might slow down a little, but it is not going to stop and housing values are probably not going to decline around here no matter what.
I have lived in the Bay Area my entire life and housing just keeps going up, up, up.
Just an anectdotal example. My grandmother's modest house in a not-so-fabulous neighborhood was purchased for $75,000 in 1985.
By the late 1990s, houses in our neighborhood were selling at nearly $200,000. A house around the corner from us sold for $715,000 -- the same house that sold for about $200,000 seven or eight years ago.
I am concerned because housing is appreciating faster than my salary will. I don't want to be like my parents, who are in their 60s without a house.
Anyway, whatever I do I will be careful. I will definitely attend all the homebuyer seminars, etc., and not act hastily.
If I have to rent in Oakland for a year or two I will.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on July 13, 2005, 01:32:45 PM
can't we all just get along?  :(

haha, yeah we can E.  What's been up?  Did you decide on your hair?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on July 13, 2005, 01:36:02 PM
she needs to go natural.. make a statement at the Ivy :D

can't we all just get along?  :(

haha, yeah we can E.  What's been up?  Did you decide on your hair?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on July 13, 2005, 01:37:36 PM
can't we all just get along?  :(

haha, yeah we can E.  What's been up?  Did you decide on your hair?

lmao.  no decisions yet.  how is the househunting?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on July 13, 2005, 01:47:20 PM
can't we all just get along?  :(

haha, yeah we can E.  What's been up?  Did you decide on your hair?

lmao.  no decisions yet.  how is the househunting?

househunting over! :-) I found something.....now the 2nd portion of the process begins i.e financing etc.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on July 13, 2005, 02:27:14 PM
 ;D
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: dbgirl on July 13, 2005, 03:00:07 PM
So blk ...
My sister is an actress/apartment manager who lives in Los Angeles. She is thinking about buying investment real estate in Texas. Someone else advised her to do that. Is it really a good idea? Can the long-distance landlord thing work?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on July 13, 2005, 03:08:34 PM
it can definitely work...the best idea to go along with that is to hire a management company to handle the property.. they'd take a small percentage from the monthly rents.. it's a good investment all around...i'm speaking from experience..

the management company would collect the rent from the tenants, , keep the grounds presentable and handle maintenance issues... cut a check every month to the owner after withdrawing their percentage.. which is usually 3% a month


So blk ...
My sister is an actress/apartment manager who lives in Los Angeles. She is thinking about buying investment real estate in Texas. Someone else advised her to do that. Is it really a good idea? Can the long-distance landlord thing work?

Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: faith2005 on July 13, 2005, 03:10:21 PM
congrats bp  :)

nightyknight--i don't care that you call me ms.faith, but the tone of your posts did seem a little condescending. sure we can agree to disagree, but I don't necessarily think that we disagree. i don't think any of the discussion was about personal checks to people who had ancestors who were enslaved. the discussion was about some sort of fund that would be used to uplift the community as a whole. my personal suggestion would be that such money would go towards school systems and child welfare services. there are some huge problems in the community that don't just need money, but time, resources and dedicated people with certain skills. i think some of the money could go towards cultivating the community capacity to sustain itself in these arenas.

i think the condescending feeling came from your suggestion that I am in need of a handout. i definitely don't think or believe that about myself or any of the people that I've had a chance to correspond with on this site. Actually most of them are really accomplished and don't need a "hand-out" per se. My opinion is that affirmative action at this point is being used to create a black middle class. I just don't believe in leaving people behind just because the companies and individuals that still benefit from slavery/land acquisition and other institutions that were established during those 350 years or so decided that it isn't important or relevant anymore.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: dbgirl on July 13, 2005, 03:13:50 PM
Well my sister and I have talked about buying a property together, so maybe I'll think about the whole Houston thing.
It truly amazes me that normal people (like myself) can by nice houses in some parts of the country.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on July 13, 2005, 03:19:50 PM
u can find a brand new 1 story home in a nice area for under 140k in some parts of Houston.. .close to 2000 sq ft 3br 2ba.. 2 car garage


Well my sister and I have talked about buying a property together, so maybe I'll think about the whole Houston thing.
It truly amazes me that normal people (like myself) can by nice houses in some parts of the country.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: faith2005 on July 13, 2005, 03:33:11 PM
blk--i could name the number of my friends who still have perms on 1 hand. i think the bigger statement would be going with the creamy crack. there aren't that many left in the northeast. hahaha, i remember some girls from another school, which i shall leave un-named, asked my roommate, why do all the black girls here have natural hair? i wish she had asked me i woulda said cause we're fly!  :D

she needs to go natural.. make a statement at the Ivy :D

can't we all just get along?  :(

haha, yeah we can E.  What's been up?  Did you decide on your hair?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: NightyKnight on July 13, 2005, 03:36:31 PM
congrats bp  :)

nightyknight--i don't care that you call me ms.faith, but the tone of your posts did seem a little condescending. sure we can agree to disagree, but I don't necessarily think that we disagree. i don't think any of the discussion was about personal checks to people who had ancestors who were enslaved. the discussion was about some sort of fund that would be used to uplift the community as a whole. my personal suggestion would be that such money would go towards school systems and child welfare services. there are some huge problems in the community that don't just need money, but time, resources and dedicated people with certain skills. i think some of the money could go towards cultivating the community capacity to sustain itself in these arenas.

i think the condescending feeling came from your suggestion that I am in need of a handout. i definitely don't think or believe that about myself or any of the people that I've had a chance to correspond with on this site. Actually most of them are really accomplished and don't need a "hand-out" per se. My opinion is that affirmative action at this point is being used to create a black middle class. I just don't believe in leaving people behind just because the companies and individuals that still benefit from slavery/land acquisition and other institutions that were established during those 350 years or so decided that it isn't important or relevant anymore.

Please know that I would never, ever call out a sister in public - nor did I have any intention of calling you out in any way, shape or form.

Since both you and BP felt it came across as condescending, than I apologize for inadvertently coming across that way.  I'm sorry.

Perhaps we're not that far apart in our views.  I believe that establishing/supporting organizations that encourage and support strong black families are abosolutely the best way to grow the black middle class and will ultimately lead to more and more black upper class.  I was very fortunate to have a real man as a father, someone who raised me and my siblings to accept responsibility for everything and accept excuses for nothing.  He promised us that life wouldn't be fair, and Lord knows he wasn't lying, but he never let us use that as a reason to expect anything extra from anyone.  

I think that's why I'm such a big supporter of Big Brothers/Sisters.  It really looks to me that if we had more black men to go and help steer these young turks that a lot of the problems we have in our black communities could be solved.  I can't tell you how hard it is to try and mentor young men with few positive role models into believing that, with the right education, that they can do anything in life.  It's makes me realize how important just having a dad is and spurs me on to be the best father (and Big Brother) I can.  No amount of money can replace parents who love you and make you hold yourself accountable for your actions.

Anyway, I think we all have the same goals.  Hopefully everything we do, however we approach things, brings us closer to a better black tomorrow.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on July 13, 2005, 03:43:10 PM
i don't know many either..i was just joking about the statement.. i just hate the fact that she feels that she needs a perm u know? that was just disheartening to read..

blk--i could name the number of my friends who still have perms on 1 hand. i think the bigger statement would be going with the creamy crack. there aren't that many left in the northeast. hahaha, i remember some girls from another school, which i shall leave un-named, asked my roommate, why do all the black girls here have natural hair? i wish she had asked me i woulda said cause we're fly!  :D

she needs to go natural.. make a statement at the Ivy :D

can't we all just get along?  :(

haha, yeah we can E.  What's been up?  Did you decide on your hair?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: faith2005 on July 13, 2005, 03:48:01 PM
its all good mr. knight. i didn't take offense really. i just wanted to let you know that at first i was like, whoa, but then reading it again i didn't think it was bad at all. you are a father? thats beautiful! i have a friend who is apart of big brother big sisters. I'm thinking about it, but I'm not sure its the right program for me to participate in...thanks for the discussion.


blk--yeah, I know. I know.  :-\ :(
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on July 13, 2005, 03:52:22 PM
dang y'all it isn't that serious.  I know I have a colonized mind, but I'd like to be able to comb through my hair without crying
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on July 13, 2005, 03:56:13 PM
i haven't combed my hair in almost three yrs ;D


dang y'all it isn't that serious.  I know I have a colonized mind, but I'd like to be able to comb through my hair without crying
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: HBCU.EDU on July 13, 2005, 03:58:16 PM
dang y'all it isn't that serious.  I know I have a colonized mind, but I'd like to be able to comb through my hair without crying

I never hear guys with long natural hair cry about sh*t like this. Why is that? ??? I don't think maxwell bitches about having long natural hair. 
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: smujd2007 on July 13, 2005, 04:40:26 PM
You don't see Maxwell trying to put a bun in his hair either. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE MAXWELL's hair, but we all know that if he tried to comb it out and put it in a bun on top of his head, he'd be crying . . .

dang y'all it isn't that serious. I know I have a colonized mind, but I'd like to be able to comb through my hair without crying

I never hear guys with long natural hair cry about sh*t like this. Why is that? ??? I don't think maxwell bitches about having long natural hair.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: smujd2007 on July 13, 2005, 04:42:09 PM
Are you joking? That's not possible . . .does someone else do your hair?

I like combing my hair. This has become the hair thread . . .do we have one of those?  Should we have one of those? :-\ ;D

i haven't combed my hair in almost three yrs ;D


dang y'all it isn't that serious.  I know I have a colonized mind, but I'd like to be able to comb through my hair without crying
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on July 13, 2005, 04:45:08 PM
start it smu.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on July 22, 2005, 02:47:05 PM


WASHINGTON -- As is usually the case, I often run out of time before I can answer all the questions submitted during my regular online discussions at www.washingtonpost.com. So here are a few I wanted to get to:
     
Q: The value of my property has just about doubled. I owe $140,000 on my home. Folks are selling similar homes for more than $280,000. My credit rating is in the 500 range. Do I have any hope of being able to refinance? What type of institution would be best to contact for a refinance?
     
A: As the Rev. Jesse Jackson always says: ``Keep hope alive.'' Even with a low credit score you can get a home loan these days. Many traditional and online lenders have loan programs for consumers with poor credit histories. However, with a score in the 500 range you fall into the subprime lending category. That means your refinance rate won't be all that attractive. For example, let's say you refinanced for a $200,000 loan. With a super great credit score of 720 or above you might qualify for a 30-year fixed rate of 5.636 percent, making your monthly payment (excluding taxes) about $1,150 a month. But with a credit score of 500 to 559, the rate increases significantly to 9.289 percent or a monthly payment of more than $1,650. (The rates I quoted come from national mortgage averages obtained by www.myfico.com as of July 18).
     
“You have lenders that will go as low as 476 but it's going to cost you,'' said Deenice Galloway, a mortgage loan specialist based in Bowie, Md. But if your credit score is low because you have been late on your current mortgage payments, there may not be much hope for you to refinance, Galloway said.
     
“A lot of people don't realize that you can't be late on your mortgage and refinance,'' she said. ``You do not want to be late on your mortgage in the last 12 months.'' Each lender sets their own range of what constitutes a good credit score worthy of their best rates. Typically, if you have a credit score in the 650 to 675 range you're eligible for good rates, Galloway said. Scores of 620 to 649 are OK but may push you into subprime territory, depending on the lender. If you want to see how your credit score affects what mortgage rate you get, go to the credit education section of the myfico.com site and then click on the link for calculators. You want the ``FICO score loan savings calculator.''
     
Q: I have had a bad financial year (worked for a startup that crashed and burned). I'm young and about to start a new job for which I need to commute. My current car is on its very last legs. What is the best way to proceed financially? Should I lease, buy new, or buy used?
     
A:  First, don't you even think about leasing. Some people say this about leasing: ``It makes sense because you don't want to buy a car, which is a depreciating asset.'' Oh yeah, then why not just rent everything you have to use -- furniture, clothes, washer and dryer? In the short term, a car lease may save you money every month. But buying a car and holding on to it for a while will save you more long term. If money is tight, buy a used car. People are getting great deals on reliable used cars with low mileage thanks in part to the knuckleheads who have to turn in their leased vehicles. As one financial planner told me, leasing a car for business purposes is OK, but never for personal use.
     
Q: I'm hoping you can help me understand reverse mortgages. My mom is in her early 60s and has virtually no income because of a sluggish job market in the area where she lives. Her area also has an extremely expensive and quirky real estate market (Boston) such that it doesn't make sense for her to sell the house. She lives in a modest house in a fancy neighborhood, so basically she's house poor. What would be the pros and cons of a reverse mortgage for someone like her?
     
A: Reverse mortgages are available only to homeowners 62 or older. This type of loan allows seniors to convert equity in their home into tax-free cash, without selling, giving up title or having to make a mortgage payment. A reverse mortgage doesn't have to be repaid until the homeowner moves, sells or dies. Borrowers can take the loan as a line of credit, a lump-sum payment, fixed monthly payments or a combination.
     
The downside of this loan product is the high fees. To get an estimate of the fees you may be charged, try the reverse mortgage calculator at the National Reverse Mortgage Lenders Association's Web site (www.reversemortgage.org). Before you contact a lender about a reverse mortgage, visit AARP's Web site on the topic (www.aarp.org/revmort). On the site you can download for free AARP's booklet ``Home Made Money: A Consumer's Guide to Reverse Mortgages.'' To order a free copy of the guide by telephone, call 1-800-209-8085.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: dbgirl on July 22, 2005, 05:20:55 PM
So, since this thread is up again, I think I'll share some of my experiences regarding my first-time homebuyers workshop in Oakland.

I went to a two day workshop that I jokingly referred to as "homebuying for dummies." When I got there, however, I realized that a lot of people are very ignorant about money and/or home financing. I'm really glad the people take these classes!

Lastnight some lenders came to talk about various types of loans, that was very informative. However, one bank representative cited a very sad statistic: The median home price in Oakland is $432,000. And, only 14 percent of the people making the median income in Oakland can afford to buy a home in Oakland. This really BUGS me. I think working people should be able to buy houses. Even in the Bay Area.

I found out something else interesting. If you own a home in some other place (e.g. TEXAS), you can still qualify for first time homebuyer assistance, provided your income is still within certain parameters.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: angmill08 on July 23, 2005, 10:04:58 AM
Yes... it's just crazy where home prices are at vrs income in most cities. That's why I wonder if the real estate market is stable, just because it seems impossible for things to continue as they are. dbgirl, I don't know much about your situation but where I live there are many small, neighborhood non-profits who create affordable housing. Usually these are in gentrifying areas and they are offshoots of church groups or neighborhood associations. I bought a house through one and it was a great deal -- allowed me to own property in a neighborhood that had already gentrified past my means and continues to increase in value. (I was able to tap in because I had been a renter in the neighborhood.) I spent a lot of time courting these non-profits, looking into tax auctions, and otherwise looking for houses that were not being sold the regular way (through realtors, at market rate) because I was in the same situation as you... just not enough income to afford the mortgage on market rate houses in my area. Good luck!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: dbgirl on July 23, 2005, 10:11:38 AM
Thanks angmill,
I'm certainly studying everything I can think of to get into a house. I have a meeting on Monday with the homebuyers assistance center -- they offer free individual counseling and will give me advice about any special programs I qualify for  :)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: ScurvyWench on July 25, 2005, 02:36:12 PM
There's a place called the Hart Foundation (sp?) that gifts first-time homebuyers their downpayments as long as they meet certain income requirements. It seems pretty cool. You should look in to it.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: dbgirl on July 25, 2005, 06:56:08 PM
Thanks Scurvy, I haven't heard of that place before ...
Another thing I'm nervous about: Obviously, I will not have a job soon. My boyfriend will be working of course and we'll be borrowing some $$$ are the lenders going to laugh at us?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on July 25, 2005, 07:08:03 PM
no.. as long as your boyfriend makes enough money to cover the mortgage costs it can happen..and his debt to income ratio is sufficient... seriously.. if u want to talk to my friend that's a loan officer.. she can better advise you than i can...

Thanks Scurvy, I haven't heard of that place before ...
Another thing I'm nervous about: Obviously, I will not have a job soon. My boyfriend will be working of course and we'll be borrowing some $$$ are the lenders going to laugh at us?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: dbgirl on July 25, 2005, 07:39:49 PM
Thanks blk ..
He's the one with the least amount of debt in our relationship and he makes more money than I do, so I figure keeping him working will help  :)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on July 26, 2005, 07:28:05 AM
http://www.freddiemac.com/news/archives/afford_housing/2005/20050722_birmingham.html

CAMPAIGN TO HELP MORE MINORITIES REALIZE THEY MAY QUALIFY TO BUY A HOME



Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Bluenine on July 26, 2005, 10:04:24 AM
Quick advice:

I'm really interested in purchasing a condo. Clearly, the only "income" I will have for the next few years will be loans, but it irks the hell out of me that my rent is paying someone else's mortgage.  Do you think I could use my my loans as income in trying to obtain a mortgage loan?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on July 26, 2005, 12:18:34 PM

you'll need a co-signer

Quick advice:

I'm really interested in purchasing a condo. Clearly, the only "income" I will have for the next few years will be loans, but it irks the hell out of me that my rent is paying someone else's mortgage.  Do you think I could use my my loans as income in trying to obtain a mortgage loan?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: YoungIke on July 26, 2005, 12:28:44 PM
I looked into that and the condo fees for up keep and grounds are sometimes more than an apartments rent. I would look into a town house or make sure the condo fee is worth it.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on July 26, 2005, 12:32:14 PM
a lot of townhomes have condo association fees as well...but you're right sometimes the fees are more expensive.. but at least that's ownership..

$1000 towards something i'll never own vs $1200 + $300 condo fees towards something that's mine..

I looked into that and the condo fees for up keep and grounds are sometimes more than an apartments rent. I would look into a town house or make sure the condo fee is worth it.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: dbgirl on July 26, 2005, 12:35:32 PM
I concur with blk ...

I think owning something -- even a condo -- is much better than paying someone else's mortgage.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: YoungIke on July 26, 2005, 12:37:17 PM
True but the condo fee on a 1200 mortgage condo would probably be a little more than just $300, but in a year I plan to look for a condo so I guess I would encourage it.  Just be careful of one bedroom because they are harder to sell. Get a 2 bedroom and a roommate to pay rent to you.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on July 26, 2005, 12:41:22 PM

it would probably be somewhere around $300 a month.. seriously in dc or NYC.. you're going to pay that for a nice apt in a 'good area' anyway..

but the 2br with a roommate idea is an excellent one...

if you get a 1br near dupont.. you better believe that someone will be willing to buy.. it's all about where you plan to set your mark... i know i plan on buying some property in dc relatively soon

True but the condo fee on a 1200 mortgage condo would probably be a little more than just $300, but in a year I plan to look for a condo so I guess I would encourage it.  Just be careful of one bedroom because they are harder to sell. Get a 2 bedroom and a roommate to pay rent to you.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on July 26, 2005, 12:46:06 PM
Blk check your pms.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Bluenine on July 26, 2005, 12:46:50 PM

it would probably be somewhere around $300 a month.. seriously in dc or NYC.. you're going to pay that for a nice apt in a 'good area' anyway..

but the 2br with a roommate idea is an excellent one...

if you get a 1br near dupont.. you better believe that someone will be willing to buy.. it's all about where you plan to set your mark... i know i plan on buying some property in dc relatively soon

True but the condo fee on a 1200 mortgage condo would probably be a little more than just $300, but in a year I plan to look for a condo so I guess I would encourage it.  Just be careful of one bedroom because they are harder to sell. Get a 2 bedroom and a roommate to pay rent to you.

Thanks y'all!  I'm going to have to look into that roommate thing too.  My parents are willing to co-sign.  I'm really trying to live in NW.  The U St. Corridor is what's hot now.  There are developments going up everywhere, but I just saw a Washington Post article on how they think the real estate bubble is about to burst.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on July 26, 2005, 12:49:48 PM

it would probably be somewhere around $300 a month.. seriously in dc or NYC.. you're going to pay that for a nice apt in a 'good area' anyway..

but the 2br with a roommate idea is an excellent one...

if you get a 1br near dupont.. you better believe that someone will be willing to buy.. it's all about where you plan to set your mark... i know i plan on buying some property in dc relatively soon

True but the condo fee on a 1200 mortgage condo would probably be a little more than just $300, but in a year I plan to look for a condo so I guess I would encourage it.  Just be careful of one bedroom because they are harder to sell. Get a 2 bedroom and a roommate to pay rent to you.

Thanks y'all!  I'm going to have to look into that roommate thing too.  My parents are willing to co-sign.  I'm really trying to live in NW.  The U St. Corridor is what's hot now.  There are developments going up everywhere, but I just saw a Washington Post article on how they think the real estate bubble is about to burst.

This time next year you will probably be reading similar articles as well.  By that time home prices will probably be up another 15-20%. 
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on July 26, 2005, 12:54:53 PM
Blue.. if you can get a spot by ledroit howard.. or U street corridor i say go for it because in 5 yrs you won't be able to afford it...

dupont  is off the meter right now.. there are some spots that are 700k for a 1br
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Bluenine on July 26, 2005, 01:04:13 PM

it would probably be somewhere around $300 a month.. seriously in dc or NYC.. you're going to pay that for a nice apt in a 'good area' anyway..

but the 2br with a roommate idea is an excellent one...

if you get a 1br near dupont.. you better believe that someone will be willing to buy.. it's all about where you plan to set your mark... i know i plan on buying some property in dc relatively soon

True but the condo fee on a 1200 mortgage condo would probably be a little more than just $300, but in a year I plan to look for a condo so I guess I would encourage it.  Just be careful of one bedroom because they are harder to sell. Get a 2 bedroom and a roommate to pay rent to you.

Thanks y'all!  I'm going to have to look into that roommate thing too.  My parents are willing to co-sign.  I'm really trying to live in NW.  The U St. Corridor is what's hot now.  There are developments going up everywhere, but I just saw a Washington Post article on how they think the real estate bubble is about to burst.

This time next year you will probably be reading similar articles as well.  By that time home prices will probably be up another 15-20%. 

So basically jump on it now, huh? Yeah I feel you.  I'm trying to get pre-approval as I type this.  Anyone know of any housing grants I could possibly apply for?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on July 26, 2005, 01:07:40 PM
well i know a very good loan officer.. that is working on putting a couple of people from this site in homes.. and has already put one person from this board in a home.. let me know if u want the info
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Bluenine on July 26, 2005, 01:15:45 PM
well i know a very good loan officer.. that is working on putting a couple of people from this site in homes.. and has already put one person from this board in a home.. let me know if u want the info

Most definitely...check your pms
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on July 26, 2005, 01:53:50 PM

it would probably be somewhere around $300 a month.. seriously in dc or NYC.. you're going to pay that for a nice apt in a 'good area' anyway..

but the 2br with a roommate idea is an excellent one...

if you get a 1br near dupont.. you better believe that someone will be willing to buy.. it's all about where you plan to set your mark... i know i plan on buying some property in dc relatively soon

True but the condo fee on a 1200 mortgage condo would probably be a little more than just $300, but in a year I plan to look for a condo so I guess I would encourage it.  Just be careful of one bedroom because they are harder to sell. Get a 2 bedroom and a roommate to pay rent to you.

Thanks y'all!  I'm going to have to look into that roommate thing too.  My parents are willing to co-sign.  I'm really trying to live in NW.  The U St. Corridor is what's hot now.  There are developments going up everywhere, but I just saw a Washington Post article on how they think the real estate bubble is about to burst.

This time next year you will probably be reading similar articles as well.  By that time home prices will probably be up another 15-20%. 

So basically jump on it now, huh? Yeah I feel you.  I'm trying to get pre-approval as I type this.  Anyone know of any housing grants I could possibly apply for?

If you can, if you can make it work you know.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: ScurvyWench on July 26, 2005, 03:36:28 PM
well i know a very good loan officer.. that is working on putting a couple of people from this site in homes.. and has already put one person from this board in a home.. let me know if u want the info

That's me Blk is talking about. Yep. Her loan officer is AMAZING! I've never heard of anyone caring so much and working so hard. It's hard to find a loan officer that will do a good job and that you can trust. Then she comes along and treats you like family, well, that qualifies her as a god-send. :)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: angmill08 on July 26, 2005, 03:51:33 PM
This time next year you will probably be reading similar articles as well.  By that time home prices will probably be up another 15-20%. 

Hmmm... I was thinking of trying to buy in DC and decided to wait and hope for a real estate market correction. How can prices keep rising like this, when wages don't keep pace? Right now, the rising prices are sustained by interest only mortgages, ARMs, and the like. But don't you think than it a few years, we'll see a lot of those risky loans default, forclosures rise, and loose lending policies dry up? That's what I'm envisioning, so my plan is to bank as much as possible until then, so when the forclosures start popping up I'll have a nice load of cash to get a good deal with.

I know no one can say for sure... but I'd be interested to hear what other people's reasons are for thinking the market will keep going up (or crash.)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: ScurvyWench on July 26, 2005, 04:04:28 PM
This time next year you will probably be reading similar articles as well.  By that time home prices will probably be up another 15-20%. 

Hmmm... I was thinking of trying to buy in DC and decided to wait and hope for a real estate market correction. How can prices keep rising like this, when wages don't keep pace? Right now, the rising prices are sustained by interest only mortgages, ARMs, and the like. But don't you think than it a few years, we'll see a lot of those risky loans default, forclosures rise, and loose lending policies dry up? That's what I'm envisioning, so my plan is to bank as much as possible until then, so when the forclosures start popping up I'll have a nice load of cash to get a good deal with.

I know no one can say for sure... but I'd be interested to hear what other people's reasons are for thinking the market will keep going up (or crash.)

I personally think it's going to crash. But not everywhere. Places that have sustained slow steady growth should be fine, but I expect CA, NY, DC, etc to crash. I'm not thinking a crash like San Diego in the 80s, more of a stumble and a 20-25% fall. If you're not planning to stay somewhere and wouldn't be able to ride out the crash, I wouldn't invest. And I certainly wouldn't be in one of those ARMs or interest only.

I've been working in residential bankruptcy law for the past 9 months, and you're right, the risky lending, and sketchy loan options are catching up with people. Everyday, I saw at least one person lose their home.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: angmill08 on July 26, 2005, 04:18:08 PM
I guess for me, also, if I were buying in DC now, with my limited cash reserves and unemployed student years looming, I'd be buying somewhere cheap, like SW or SE.

I don't think I could afford the monthly payment in "the new U" or more established NW neighborhoods. (My friend bought a condo in Columbia Heights a few years back, I think her monthly was $1200 and she had drug dealers working the stoop next door. To me, if I'm going to be dealing with drugs and crime, the place needs to be CHEAP!) But if the market drops off, and the people like me who have been buying in SE/SW can afford a reduced price condo on U Street, gentrification will cease and SE may slide back into being a down-and-out neighborhood instead of an up-and-coming one. And then I would be trapped there, in a place I can't afford to sell and a neighborhood that I don't want to keep living in.

So anyway, this is my fear. But I am kind of risk adverse right now, since I aready own a house and I'm still recovering from the stress of that risky real estate investment! I guess there's something to be said for taking these risks now, while we are young, rather than being older and grayer and with more responsibilities and saying, "oh, if only I'd bought a house 7 years ago..."
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: dbgirl on July 26, 2005, 04:25:06 PM
I think that I value homeownership more than many people. To me, there is no real question -- I MUST buy a home, if not now, then soon.

I look at all the poor decisions my parents made and I would do anything possible to avoid ending up like them.
My parents are 60 and 65 and still RENT a 1 bedroom apartment. They never owned a house, despite opportunities to buy homes really cheap in Silicon Valley when I was a child.

My father even lost his childhood home in Nashville because his sister sold it to pay for my grandmother to go to a nursing home (I don't think that was necessary, but no one listens to me.) Anyway I told my father to tell me if the home was being sold so that perhaps I could try to buy it. But no one told me -- my aunt just sold the house.
I am amazed at the careless attitude my father and his kin have about homeownership, or lack thereof. I think that is why he and his siblings will ALWAYS be poor.

Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on July 26, 2005, 04:32:44 PM
This time next year you will probably be reading similar articles as well.  By that time home prices will probably be up another 15-20%. 

Hmmm... I was thinking of trying to buy in DC and decided to wait and hope for a real estate market correction. How can prices keep rising like this, when wages don't keep pace? Right now, the rising prices are sustained by interest only mortgages, ARMs, and the like. But don't you think than it a few years, we'll see a lot of those risky loans default, forclosures rise, and loose lending policies dry up? That's what I'm envisioning, so my plan is to bank as much as possible until then, so when the forclosures start popping up I'll have a nice load of cash to get a good deal with.

I know no one can say for sure... but I'd be interested to hear what other people's reasons are for thinking the market will keep going up (or crash.)

Good points angmill and Scurvy. 

Real wages are not the only driver of home prices though.  While wages are not rising as fast, actual job growth in the DC area is very healthy.  The Fed is likely to only raise interest rates once or twice more (1/4 points) so there will probably be a small upward pressure on rates,but nothing crazy.  As far as loose lending policies go, this is somewhat of a fallacy.  Yes, there have been more creative loan structuring in recent years, but the actual qualification requirements have not become as loose as people believe.  Almost 2/3rds of loans are usually sold to either Fannie or Freddie and they both have conforming rules for the lending institutions that are set in stone.  In the subprime market (non-conforming loans for Fannie/Freddie purposes) qualifying requirements are usually higher, not lower.  Furthermore subprime lending is not really an issue in the big markets where median prices approach 300k.  I'm saying all this to say that the spate of foreclosures that you foresee will most likely not be there. 

Now I too expect a correction.  I mean, it has to come.  But it will not be a national correction, it will be a regional correction.  For the areas that have high job growth and strong regional economies (I have to keep using DC as an example) the correction might simply be a deceleration of price increases.  By the time this happens, I will be  very surprised if home prices are not up another 40%.  So in order for you to benefit from a correction, prices would have to fall more than 40% to put you back to where we are today (more than 40% since you will most likely be financing at higher rates).  I really cannot see how waiting could be a smart idea.  I will look for a paper from the head economist at my company about this and post it. 
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: ScurvyWench on July 26, 2005, 04:55:55 PM
I think that I value homeownership more than many people. To me, there is no real question -- I MUST buy a home, if not now, then soon.

I look at all the poor decisions my parents made and I would do anything possible to avoid ending up like them.
My parents are 60 and 65 and still RENT a 1 bedroom apartment. They never owned a house, despite opportunities to buy homes really cheap in Silicon Valley when I was a child.

My father even lost his childhood home in Nashville because his sister sold it to pay for my grandmother to go to a nursing home (I don't think that was necessary, but no one listens to me.) Anyway I told my father to tell me if the home was being sold so that perhaps I could try to buy it. But no one told me -- my aunt just sold the house.
I am amazed at the careless attitude my father and his kin have about homeownership, or lack thereof. I think that is why he and his siblings will ALWAYS be poor.



I hear you there DBGirl. It's funny, my mom has never owned a home before and we ended up both buying our first homes within a week of each other. It was a happy day.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: ScurvyWench on July 26, 2005, 05:04:02 PM
This time next year you will probably be reading similar articles as well.  By that time home prices will probably be up another 15-20%. 

Hmmm... I was thinking of trying to buy in DC and decided to wait and hope for a real estate market correction. How can prices keep rising like this, when wages don't keep pace? Right now, the rising prices are sustained by interest only mortgages, ARMs, and the like. But don't you think than it a few years, we'll see a lot of those risky loans default, forclosures rise, and loose lending policies dry up? That's what I'm envisioning, so my plan is to bank as much as possible until then, so when the forclosures start popping up I'll have a nice load of cash to get a good deal with.

I know no one can say for sure... but I'd be interested to hear what other people's reasons are for thinking the market will keep going up (or crash.)

Good points angmill and Scurvy. 

Real wages are not the only driver of home prices though.  While wages are not rising as fast, actual job growth in the DC area is very healthy.  The Fed is likely to only raise interest rates once or twice more (1/4 points) so there will probably be a small upward pressure on rates,but nothing crazy.  As far as loose lending policies go, this is somewhat of a fallacy.  Yes, there have been more creative loan structuring in recent years, but the actual qualification requirements have not become as loose as people believe.  Almost 2/3rds of loans are usually sold to either Fannie or Freddie and they both have conforming rules for the lending institutions that are set in stone.  In the subprime market (non-conforming loans for Fannie/Freddie purposes) qualifying requirements are usually higher, not lower.  Furthermore subprime lending is not really an issue in the big markets where median prices approach 300k.  I'm saying all this to say that the spate of foreclosures that you foresee will most likely not be there. 

Now I too expect a correction.  I mean, it has to come.  But it will not be a national correction, it will be a regional correction.  For the areas that have high job growth and strong regional economies (I have to keep using DC as an example) the correction might simply be a deceleration of price increases.  By the time this happens, I will be  very surprised if home prices are not up another 40%.  So in order for you to benefit from a correction, prices would have to fall more than 40% to put you back to where we are today (more than 40% since you will most likely be financing at higher rates).  I really cannot see how waiting could be a smart idea.  I will look for a paper from the head economist at my company about this and post it. 

All true if you're planning to stay and can ride out any potential market problems. However, I would guess that most of us are going to be very transitional for the next 3-6 years and being stuck in an over-valued mortgage would be terrible. Yes, you could always rent it out, but probably at a loss. This is for markets like CA, where the job growth really isn't keeping up with the rise in housing costs. For DC, it may be different.

As for subprimes, they were my specialty. You see the most subprime mortgages failing that are ARMs and that aren't in rapidly valuing places, like Missouri, for example. People in super expensive parts of CA were losing their homes because there was a rash of speculative buying and people took interest only loans that they could never manage once the rate started adjusting or they took loans that had the potential for huge growth as well as huge negative amoritization. As soon as the fed started raising the rate and the purchases started slowing, these people wanted to get out, but had to do so at a loss causing the first hairline fractures of instability.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: THE BLUE SWEATER on July 27, 2005, 05:57:42 AM
While wages are not meeting prices and a bubble bust is possible, There is a very real possibility that the market is correct. Somthing that needs to be taken into consideration is the rate of ne home owners are declining. In many DC/MD/VA areas there up to 15-@)% of properties are owned by investors driving up the demand and in turn the equilibrium price. THe other group includes those who aren't buying their first home and buying with the equity off their previous. They would also be able to afford homes even if it took the help of a intrest only loan. Now if these people with high risk financing default on their properities then investors will pick it up and it will becom an indef rental property. What is happening is a trend where wealther people are begining to buy multiple properties including the ones that low income indivuduals used to buy. Then low to middle income familes are forced to rent as supply drops, (No properties available for sale because investors are holding them) and demand increases, (everyone still wants houses). This creates a high equilibrium price tthat is very real. A bubble is possible yes. However it would be from external factors and not really the financing.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on July 27, 2005, 07:19:47 AM
Good posts Scurvy and Superocdman.  It will be interesting to come back to this thread a year from now and see how things are looking.  Hopefully it all meshes out and people who have purchased will still be in good positions.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: faith2005 on August 08, 2005, 01:07:18 PM
August 8, 2005
That Hissing Sound
By PAUL KRUGMAN
This is the way the bubble ends: not with a pop, but with a hiss.

Housing prices move much more slowly than stock prices. There are no Black Mondays, when prices fall 23 percent in a day. In fact, prices often keep rising for a while even after a housing boom goes bust.

So the news that the U.S. housing bubble is over won't come in the form of plunging prices; it will come in the form of falling sales and rising inventory, as sellers try to get prices that buyers are no longer willing to pay. And the process may already have started.

Of course, some people still deny that there's a housing bubble. Let me explain how we know that they're wrong.

One piece of evidence is the sense of frenzy about real estate, which irresistibly brings to mind the stock frenzy of 1999. Even some of the players are the same. The authors of the 1999 best seller "Dow 36,000" are now among the most vocal proponents of the view that there is no housing bubble.

Then there are the numbers. Many bubble deniers point to average prices for the country as a whole, which look worrisome but not totally crazy. When it comes to housing, however, the United States is really two countries, Flatland and the Zoned Zone.

In Flatland, which occupies the middle of the country, it's easy to build houses. When the demand for houses rises, Flatland metropolitan areas, which don't really have traditional downtowns, just sprawl some more. As a result, housing prices are basically determined by the cost of construction. In Flatland, a housing bubble can't even get started.

But in the Zoned Zone, which lies along the coasts, a combination of high population density and land-use restrictions - hence "zoned" - makes it hard to build new houses. So when people become willing to spend more on houses, say because of a fall in mortgage rates, some houses get built, but the prices of existing houses also go up. And if people think that prices will continue to rise, they become willing to spend even more, driving prices still higher, and so on. In other words, the Zoned Zone is prone to housing bubbles.

And Zoned Zone housing prices, which have risen much faster than the national average, clearly point to a bubble.

In the nation as a whole, housing prices rose about 50 percent between the first quarter of 2000 and the first quarter of 2005. But that average blends results from Flatland metropolitan areas like Houston and Atlanta, where prices rose 26 and 29 percent respectively, with results from Zoned Zone areas like New York, Miami and San Diego, where prices rose 77, 96 and 118 percent.

Nobody would pay San Diego prices without believing that prices will continue to rise. Rents rose much more slowly than prices: the Bureau of Labor Statistics index of "owners' equivalent rent" rose only 27 percent from late 1999 to late 2004. Business Week reports that by 2004 the cost of renting a house in San Diego was only 40 percent of the cost of owning a similar house - even taking into account low interest rates on mortgages. So it makes sense to buy in San Diego only if you believe that prices will keep rising rapidly, generating big capital gains. That's pretty much the definition of a bubble.

Bubbles end when people stop believing that big capital gains are a sure thing. That's what happened in San Diego at the end of its last housing bubble: after a rapid rise, house prices peaked in 1990. Soon there was a glut of houses on the market, and prices began falling. By 1996, they had declined about 25 percent after adjusting for inflation.

And that's what's happening in San Diego right now, after a rise in house prices that dwarfs the boom of the 1980's. The number of single-family houses and condos on the market has doubled over the past year. "Homes that a year or two ago sold virtually overnight - in many cases triggering bidding wars - are on the market for weeks," reports The Los Angeles Times. The same thing is happening in other formerly hot markets.

Meanwhile, the U.S. economy has become deeply dependent on the housing bubble. The economic recovery since 2001 has been disappointing in many ways, but it wouldn't have happened at all without soaring spending on residential construction, plus a surge in consumer spending largely based on mortgage refinancing. Did I mention that the personal savings rate has fallen to zero?

Now we're starting to hear a hissing sound, as the air begins to leak out of the bubble. And everyone - not just those who own Zoned Zone real estate - should be worried.

E-mail: krugman@nytimes.com
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: faith2005 on August 08, 2005, 01:08:43 PM
2 articles from the nytimes i thought were interesting.

August 7, 2005
For Muslims, Loans for the Conscience
By PATRICK O'GILFOIL HEALY
DETROIT

EVERY time Subhan Khan paid his mortgage, stepped into a mosque or talked about real estate with friends, he felt the shadow of shame creeping over him.

To buy his first home, Mr. Khan had quietly but deliberately violated Islamic laws that bar Muslims from paying or receiving interest on loans. He had financed a home in Atlanta with a conventional mortgage, and was pricked by regret whenever he listened to an imam rail against the sin of money lending.

Never again, Mr. Khan told himself. When he sold the house and moved to Michigan last year, he vowed he would somehow buy a home for his family where guilt wasn't part of the purchase price.

In suburban Detroit, home to the country's most concentrated Arab-American population, thousands of other observant Muslims trying to move from renting to owning a home face the same quandary: how can they balance their faith and finances?

"I always felt bad about purchasing a home on a mortgage," said Mr. Khan, 35, who recently bought a home in Dexter, Mich. "To a Muslim, it's haram - it's not religiously acceptable. It's the wrong thing to do."

Koranic law forbids paying or receiving interest, or riba. Muslims who wanted to buy a home had to save hundreds of thousands of dollars, get loans from family, or swallow their faith and take out a conventional mortgage.

Over the last few years, several Islamic-friendly lending programs have popped up across the region to help solve the problem. They offer creative loans that skirt the laws against riba by creating joint-owner partnerships or charging lease fees in place of interest.

The difference may seem largely semantic, but the loans are deemed halal, or clean, by Islamic scholars. And they are becoming a popular route for Muslims who want to buy homes, bankers said.

Michigan's large Arab-American population is growing fast, by 51 percent from 1990 to 2000, according to census data. Civic groups estimate that 490,000 Arab residents live in the state now. But census figures show that the homeownership rate for these Arab residents, many of them Muslims, remains 7 percent lower than the overall percentage of homeowners statewide.

"There are people making $90,000 to $100,000 a year and living in apartments," said Mushir Khwaja, an Islamic banker with University Bank, a Michigan lender. "But there are others, out of necessity, who say, 'O.K., I'm going to do what I need to for my family.' There isn't any alternative available."

Banks have noticed, and in the last few years, several have entered Michigan's Islamic market.

Borrowers do not have to be Muslim or religious to qualify for the loan, but banks market them almost exclusively to Islamic communities, printing Arabic brochures and distributing fliers outside mosques after Friday afternoon prayers.

University Bank, a small public company based in Ann Arbor, has lent $11 million in Islamic mortgages. The California-based lender Lariba, which issues about 100 Muslim mortgages each month, expanded into Michigan in 2002. A Virginia-based lender, the Guidance Financial Group, recently opened a satellite office in Oakland County, one of Michigan's wealthiest areas.

And in January, Devon Bank of Chicago paired with the underwriter Freddie Mac to begin offering Muslim mortgages in nine states, including Michigan.

Still, it is nearly impossible to say how many Muslim-friendly mortgages are being issued in Detroit or across the country. Banking and lending associations said they do not track these loans.

A May letter from the Federal Reserve's Chicago office called Islamic home loans a tiny corner of the $1 trillion mortgage industry, but could not say how tiny. The Fed identified three types of Islamic loans.

In a Murabaha loan, the bank buys the house and gradually sells it to the home buyer, with an additional profit rate tacked on. In an Ijara loan, one of the most common, the bank buys the house and leases it to the buyer, who pays off the home, plus market-based rent for living there.

The third form, called Musharaka, creates a shared-equity partnership between bank and buyer to purchase the house and gradually transfer shares of its ownership.

For many buyers, Islamic loans are like second love after a bad first marriage. Some use the loans to refinance a conventional mortgage and jettison the old interest-bearing loans.

Others, like Mr. Khan, turn to Islamic financing after buying their first houses with traditional mortgages.

"At the time I bought my house, I weighed my needs over religious needs, which was wrong," Mr. Khan said. "As you grow, your priorities change. I don't want to teach my kids that I'm living under an un-Islamic loan."

One of his cousins had languished for 15 years in rental apartments before buying a house. Mr. Khan, determined not to wait that long saving money, found a loan through Lariba that would finance his newly built, 2,500-square-foot home.

After appraising the house and checking Mr. Khan's credit, Lariba bought the home and began leasing it to the family. The Khans will live there and pay rent as they gradually buy the house. Mr. Khan said he will ultimately pay a quarter percentage point more than he would under a conventional mortgage.

In a market where religion and orthodoxy mingle with money, lenders scrabble over whose loans are truly proper and in line with the Koran.

To customers, how lenders calculate their profit margins and the provenance of their Islamic scholars mean as much as the total cost of the loan.

"We feel insulted as individuals for someone to take the interest rate of the day, change its name and tell someone it's Islamic," said Yahia Abdul-Rahman, the founder and chairman of Lariba, which uses comparable market rents to calculate its lease rates. "We have the only model that complies with all the rules of Islamic and Jewish and Christian laws," he said.

Despite interest from Freddie Mac and the Federal National Mortgage Association, or Fannie Mae, Islamic loans still feel tenuous and homegrown. Several ventures in the Detroit area failed because investors would not sign on, and lenders said the partnerships and third-party nature of the loans makes them riskier and less attractive to underwriters.

The days when buyers had to put down 40 percent or 50 percent to obtain an interest-free Islamic mortgage are over, but the loans often come draped with high fees and additional closing costs, buyers said. And because the lender actually purchases the home, buyers said, getting homeowners insurance has been difficult.

But several buyers said the mortgages afford them peace of mind that overwhelms all the other concerns. Rashid Abrar, 39, said many of his Muslim friends with traditional mortgages pay them off at breakneck speed, trying to lift the spiritual burden. But Mr. Abrar financed his first home three years ago with an Islamic loan, and is paying it slowly and regularly.

"I'm satisfied," Mr. Abrar said. "I'm going along at the 30-year pace."

For Brandon Metzger, 32, a convert to Islam, the sense of ease extends far beyond the life of the loan.

Last year, Mr. Metzger and his wife, Shereen Solaiman, decided to move out of their 2,000-square-foot house in Ypsilanti and into a larger house closer to their children's school. Last winter, they found a 3,200-square-foot house with light brick, cathedral ceilings and chandeliers in a newer subdivision in Canton, and the Metzgers decided it was the one for them.

They had bought their old home conventionally and paid off two-thirds of the mortgage after seven years. Mr. Metzger's conscience urged him to take out an Islamic loan, but he wondered whether it was really necessary. "Numbers are numbers," he told himself.

But after a long day of house-hunting, Mr. Metzger and his real estate agent, also a Muslim, sat down on the front porch of an empty home and chewed over the question. And in a moment, Mr. Metzger realized why he needed an Islamic loan this time around.

"On the day of judgment you have a scale, and if the scale is heavier on the good deeds than the bad, you're going to heaven," Mr. Metzger said. "You don't want to live your life in a house with all that mortgage and interest and wonder, 'Is this piling up or not?' You don't want that on your shoulders. To me, that's the answer I was looking for."

In March, the Metzgers moved in.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on August 08, 2005, 01:41:57 PM
great articles Faith.  What are your thoughts on "islamic lending" though.  That guy has a point though.  Isn't the islamic loan structuring basically a  shrewd way of not explicitly charging interest when the market rate rental that they include actually amounts to interest being charged? Thoughts?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: faith2005 on August 08, 2005, 02:04:53 PM
i think its true that in the end you are still paying the same amount as interest. but the problem with interest is that you shouldn't pay back more than you borrow, or get back more than you were loaned. so b/c the bank is buying the home, you aren't paying back more than you borrowed, so the actual amount paid for the house might be higher, but the peace of mind comes from not having to borrow money and pay back more.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on August 08, 2005, 02:59:20 PM
i wish.... :-\


i think its true that in the end you are still paying the same amount as interest. but the problem with interest is that you shouldn't pay back more than you borrow, or get back more than you were loaned. so b/c the bank is buying the home, you aren't paying back more than you borrowed, so the actual amount paid for the house might be higher, but the peace of mind comes from not having to borrow money and pay back more.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: faith2005 on August 08, 2005, 03:05:00 PM
what do you mean? it is messed up that people probably end up paying alot more this way, but to them its worth the extra amount.  :-\
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on August 08, 2005, 03:08:36 PM
i meant that i wish that it was made possible that you didn't have to pay back more than you borrow..

what do you mean? it is messed up that people probably end up paying alot more this way, but to them its worth the extra amount.  :-\
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: faith2005 on August 08, 2005, 03:13:19 PM
like all interest ended altogether? don't we all wish that would happen?  :D who came up with usury after all?  :D
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on August 08, 2005, 03:15:13 PM
interest needs to go away lol.. or it should go towards a non profit organization or underdeveloped school of your choice..but something like that would never happen...

like all interest ended altogether? don't we all wish that would happen?  :D who came up with usury after all?  :D
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on August 08, 2005, 04:01:53 PM
like all interest ended altogether? don't we all wish that would happen?  :D who came up with usury after all?  :D

Haha, good question Faith.  When someone realized that because of inflation a dollar today is worth more than a dollar in the hand tomorrow, lenders had to get compensated for that time value otherwise no one would lend money where they were guaranteed a loss on the deal..haha.  Then add to that the risk of not being repaid at all, lenders have to also be compensated for that risk too, otherwise there would be no incentive to lend.  It would be interesting to find out how this works in predominately muslim countries though.  Thanks again Faith, really interesting topic.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: faith2005 on August 08, 2005, 04:17:15 PM
didn't it come up with the end of money being tied to the gold standard or whatever, or was interest all encompassing then as well?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on August 08, 2005, 04:27:59 PM
didn't it come up with the end of money being tied to the gold standard or whatever, or was interest all encompassing then as well?
Interest was prevalent centuries before the end of the gold standard, which really was not so long ago Faith.  Oh, I found this information, I did not know that the bible addressed the issue or usury as well:

Exodus (22.25) contains one of the earliest commands with respect to money lending: "If you lend money to any of my people with you who is poor, you shall not be to him as a creditor, and you shall not exact interest from him"

The debate on usury can be traced back at least as far as Aristotle. In his Politics, Aristotle discusses "wealth-getting," or providing ones income, through exchange and production. Of these two "arts," Aristotle writes,

    "the latter branch [production] is necessary and in good esteem, but the branch connected with exchange is justly discredited (for it is not in accordance with nature, but involves men's taking things from one another). As this is so, usury is most reasonably hated, because its gain comes from money itself and not from that for the sake of which money was invented. For money was brought into existence for the purpose of exchange, but interest increases the amount of money itself ...; consequently this form of the business of getting wealth is of all forms the most contrary to nature."[1]

Saint Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274), the medieval theologian, was equally opposed to usury, in his case on religious grounds. For Aquinas, Christians should be charitable in their lending, and he saw the charging of interest as greedy and exploitative. Biblical support for his position came from Luke 6:35, where Jesus instructs to "Lend freely, hoping nothing thereby."

In part as a result of the strong church opposition, lending for interest was widely prohibited during the Middle Ages (approximately 500-1500). Over time this gave way to usury laws that set maximum rates of interest on loans. Support for these laws was strong, even from the likes of classical economist Adam Smith (1723-1790) and others that generally supported minimal government intervention.

Support for usury laws, however, was not universal, and classical economist Jeremy Bentham (1748-1832) rejected the assertion that government controls on interest rates were necessary or beneficial. He believed that individuals are better judges of the worth of money to themselves. Setting limits on interest rates might be detrimental as it would prevent some from securing loans that would be ultimately beneficial.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: smujd2007 on August 08, 2005, 10:25:59 PM
interesting articles, faith.  thanks for posting.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: twarga on August 09, 2005, 05:48:39 AM
Good news... the little sh*tbox down the street just sold for $189K.   ;D  My house is twice the size and we've done upgrades to the bathrooms and kitchen.  We bought it for $98K back in 1997.  Whoo hoo!  We plan to sell it in 2008.  Maybe we'll double our money.  That would be sweeeeeeeet!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: THE BLUE SWEATER on August 09, 2005, 09:06:55 AM
In ancient islamic countries investors bought ownership. If a loan was given it was common practice for the debtor to give a goodwill gift to the lender.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: faith2005 on August 09, 2005, 09:20:07 AM
you know what? something about this really made me smile. i know interest/usury had to pre-date the gold standard, b/c its mentioned in the bible, the quran etc. i guess i am wondering if the modern world has always operated according to interest rates etc. but i guess it always has...

didn't it come up with the end of money being tied to the gold standard or whatever, or was interest all encompassing then as well?
Interest was prevalent centuries before the end of the gold standard, which really was not so long ago Faith.  Oh, I found this information, I did not know that the bible addressed the issue or usury as well:

Exodus (22.25) contains one of the earliest commands with respect to money lending: "If you lend money to any of my people with you who is poor, you shall not be to him as a creditor, and you shall not exact interest from him"

The debate on usury can be traced back at least as far as Aristotle. In his Politics, Aristotle discusses "wealth-getting," or providing ones income, through exchange and production. Of these two "arts," Aristotle writes,

    "the latter branch [production] is necessary and in good esteem, but the branch connected with exchange is justly discredited (for it is not in accordance with nature, but involves men's taking things from one another). As this is so, usury is most reasonably hated, because its gain comes from money itself and not from that for the sake of which money was invented. For money was brought into existence for the purpose of exchange, but interest increases the amount of money itself ...; consequently this form of the business of getting wealth is of all forms the most contrary to nature."[1]

Saint Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274), the medieval theologian, was equally opposed to usury, in his case on religious grounds. For Aquinas, Christians should be charitable in their lending, and he saw the charging of interest as greedy and exploitative. Biblical support for his position came from Luke 6:35, where Jesus instructs to "Lend freely, hoping nothing thereby."

In part as a result of the strong church opposition, lending for interest was widely prohibited during the Middle Ages (approximately 500-1500). Over time this gave way to usury laws that set maximum rates of interest on loans. Support for these laws was strong, even from the likes of classical economist Adam Smith (1723-1790) and others that generally supported minimal government intervention.

Support for usury laws, however, was not universal, and classical economist Jeremy Bentham (1748-1832) rejected the assertion that government controls on interest rates were necessary or beneficial. He believed that individuals are better judges of the worth of money to themselves. Setting limits on interest rates might be detrimental as it would prevent some from securing loans that would be ultimately beneficial.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: THE BLUE SWEATER on August 09, 2005, 09:29:40 AM
Interest rates were determined by goldsmiths who mainted gold (original bankers) demand for reserves. Ancient Interest in cultures as far back as the mesopotaian all the way to 13th century france rates was actually a limited market driven in many cultures. In other isolated and nomadic cultures such as the Hebrews I believe the head of state set a mandated interest rate for certain goods. (allowed him to control business)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on August 09, 2005, 09:39:25 AM
Gotcha Faith, and good info Superdoc.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on August 09, 2005, 11:27:23 AM
 
FREDDIE MAC ECONOMIC RELEASE
Summer Dreaming
by Frank Nothaft, Amy Crews Cutts and Nela Richardson
August 8, 2005 
 


Summary
The brightest light in the U.S. economy continues to be the housing sector. In June, new records were achieved in sales of both new and existing houses, and sales through the first half of the year are running nearly six percent higher than over the same period in 2004 – also a record year for home sales. The Federal Reserve System's (Fed) Beige Book (a periodic report on economic conditions across the twelve Fed districts) indicates that the strength of residential real estate markets is widespread, with the exception of the seventh and ninth districts (covering the states of North Dakota, South Dakota, Iowa, Minnesota, Illinois, Wisconsin, Indiana, and Michigan). These two districts had mixed real estate performance by location and market segment due to employment weakness in manufacturing and other local industries.

The strong performance of the housing sector is attracting investors into the market for single-family homes. According to data compiled by LoanPerformance, the share of prime, conforming mortgage loans for home purchase that were taken out by investors hit a new high of 10.3 percent in the first quarter of 2005. Another 7.3 percent of home-purchase mortgages were taken out by buyers of second homes. The combined share of recently purchased investor-owned and second homes (17.6 percent) has nearly doubled in three years – the average share in 2001 was 9.3 percent. These shares are even higher in some metropolitan markets that have experienced much higher than average price appreciation. One concern among market watchers is that speculative investment may be driving prices higher than they should be on the basis of population and income growth. Builders seem to be highly attuned to this, and are now adding in contract provisions to prevent the flipping of homes during construction and through the first year or two after completion.

Higher interest rates will certainly dampen demand for housing eventually, but a stronger labor market will offset some of the interest rate effects. The U.S. has added an average of 188,000 payroll jobs per month in the first six months of this year, just slightly above the 183,000 average new jobs added per month in 2004. Approximately 35 percent of companies recently surveyed by the National Association of Business Economists said they are having trouble finding skilled labor – just 25 percent reported skilled labor shortages last year. In the same survey, 39 percent of respondents indicated wages and salaries were rising, compared with 22 percent for the same period last year.
 
 
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: THE BLUE SWEATER on August 09, 2005, 11:47:40 AM
Notice they said investors. Familes can't afford homes anymore and a artifical market is being created. I'm expecting a po in the near future. This sounds more and and more like the bandwagon people jumped on with the tech boom.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on August 09, 2005, 12:07:35 PM
Notice they said investors. Familes can't afford homes anymore and a artifical market is being created. I'm expecting a po in the near future. This sounds more and and more like the bandwagon people jumped on with the tech boom.

True but because of the tech boom the bandwagon we have now is made up of people who spend all day talking about the bursting of the housing bubble imo. 
Time will tell though.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: THE BLUE SWEATER on August 09, 2005, 01:04:40 PM
People are bring up the tech bubble because this has been happing over and over in financial history before tech it was oil before that it was gold, before that it was agriculture. It's the same story with different characters. Investors start investing off irrelevant trends and not rleveant information and it creates false markets. When these markets correct themselves you get the crashes that have benn bankrupting people throughout the history of modern financial markets. This time it just happens to be housing. There has never been a market grow this fast and sustain growth. Ever. (The trading companies of the British Empire did but the rules were different then so they are exempt).
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on August 18, 2005, 01:37:09 PM
How to shack up, financially: Single soul mates or married at heart? Make your wishes clear and your finances clearer -- or you might wind up accidentally married.


 Before Alan Stewart and Sandy Overton moved in together, they carefully discussed finances. They decided to keep everything separate, as if they were roommates rather than lovers. She chips in on groceries and utilities, but each partner maintains a checking account and pays income taxes individually. Overton even kept her house on the south side of Indianapolis, leasing it out after she joined Stewart. He continues to pay his own mortgage, just as he did before they met.

"Finances aren't a fight for us," says Stewart. "I can't complain about the cost of a haircut when it's her money."

It's almost the perfect setup, say financial experts who deal with the intricacies of cohabitation arrangements. For starters, should this couple decide to move to any of the 14 states that confer common-law marriages on similar arrangements, there's no danger they'll make a slip that slaps on a label they didn't choose. And that's just the start of the curiosities couples living together need to navigate.

The widely held belief that states consider a couple married after seven years together is pure baloney. In 14 places (Alabama, Colorado, Georgia, Iowa, Kansas, Montana, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Texas, Utah, New Hampshire and Washington, D.C.) couples must follow these four steps to label themselves as married, whether or not they walk into city hall:

Live together.


Present themselves as a married couple -- e.g. use the same last name, refer to each other as husband and wife, file a joint tax return or establish joint bank accounts with the same last name.

Live together a significant period of time, although the laws don't specify exactly how long.


Intend to marry.
"Yet, specific as these requirements are, some folks in New York who own second homes in Pennsylvania woke up one morning to find themselves unintentionally married in the eyes of the Pennsylvania courts," says Donna LeValley, contributing editor of J.K. Lasser's "Your Income Tax 2005." "After all, they met all four criteria during the summer months they spent in that house. I call it married by adverse possession," she says.

Other legal minds, such as Marshall Miller, co-founder of the Alternatives to Marriage project, recommend that couples living together in these 14 states draft a signed, dated agreement saying they agree to live together as two independent beings who have no intention of being married by any means.

After all, the financial consequences for a misunderstanding can be severe.

Tax concerns
Take the IRS, for instance. It's illegal to file a joint tax return unless you're married or in a common-law union. Most folks who overlook this detail quickly find themselves agreeing to this status as opposed to admitting tax fraud. In Overton and Stewart's case, it's much cheaper for each to file as single, so a mistake here could prove costly. The real kicker is: Once you file as a common-law household, you must then fill out those subsequent returns as married filing separately or married filing jointly. Declaring yourself single lands you in hot water as well, LeValley says.

Once you say you're married, a breakup is no longer confined to moving vans and hurt feelings. Common-law marriages require dissolution by a divorce court, complete with legal fees and property laws. On the upside, divorces are heard in a court where judges are sensitive to relationship squabbles. "Unmarried couples who require legal intervention wind up in civil courts, where the robes behind the benches aren't as well versed in the details," says Emily Doskow, editor of the Nolo press book, "Living Together: A Legal Guide for Unmarried Couples."

 
 
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: angmill08 on August 18, 2005, 02:28:06 PM
Good info. My boyfriend and I keep it like Alan & Sandy in the article, although he chips in $$ for rent, too (his rent is my mortgage... as it would be with any tenant.) We file taxes seperately, have completely seperate finances, never present ourselves as husband and wife. 

But an old nosy neighbor used to come around all the time and warn my boyfriend that although we were not married, since TX acknowledges common-law unions, I could "take everything" should we split. Little did he know that I owned everything... and if we were common law and divorced, my boyfriend would be cleaning ME out! The old neighbor would even ask me about my "husband" and then say sarcastically, "I mean, your boyfriend." He was not a total jerk, but you could tell the idea of a woman being the breadwinner/asset holder was not something he ever considered.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on August 18, 2005, 02:50:56 PM
ang.. what part of TX do you reside in?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: angmill08 on August 18, 2005, 03:26:12 PM
ang.. what part of TX do you reside in?

Austin.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: dbgirl on August 23, 2005, 11:08:56 PM
Hey you homebuying experts ...

I talked to a mortgage broker today to see if buying a home of any sort is a possiblity.

He told me that as a student my loan money only counts against me, it can't count as "income" even if I have a cosigner  :'(
If I did a stated income loan, couldn't I count
my money as "income" then?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: angmill08 on August 24, 2005, 11:53:39 AM
Just FYI... the WSJ had an article yesterday about markets where three economists saw "bubbles" and predicted a price drop. Oakland was listed, but I think only by one economist. Lots of other cities in CA made the lists, as well as Las Vegas and some cities in Florida. I'd link the article but the WSJ online is only available to subscribers. But you may want to take a look...
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: angmill08 on September 26, 2005, 12:44:56 PM
Re: Renting Vrs Buying... a useful article from Sunday's NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/25/realestate/25cov.html
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Freak on December 30, 2005, 04:32:37 PM
A loan is a loan is a loan....
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on January 03, 2006, 10:37:22 AM
How will this influence your decision on whether or not it is a good time to buy?

Most overvalued housing markets
Latest analysis of 299 markets: See how your hometown ranks.
By Les Christie, CNNMoney.com staff writer
January 3, 2006: 2:33 AM EST
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) - Sixty-five of the nation's 299 biggest real estate markets are severely overpriced and subject to possible price corrections.

That's according to the latest (third quarter) Housing Market Analysis conducted by National City Corp, a financial holding company, in conjunction with Global Insight, a financial information provider.

The report named Naples, Florida as the most overvalued of all housing markets in the United States. A single-family, median-priced home there sells for $329,970, 84 percent more than what it should cost -- $180,956 -- according to the analysis.

National City arrives at its estimates of what the typical house in these markets should cost by examining the town's population densities, local interest rates, and income levels. It also factors in historical premiums and discounts for each area.

Other markets deemed wildly overpriced included Merced, California (by 77 percent), Salinas, California (75 percent), and Port St. Lucie, Florida (72 percent).

Undervalued markets were College Station (-23 percent), El Paso (-18 percent), and Killeen (-16 percent), all in Texas. That state dominated the discounted markets list with nine of the 10 most undervalued housing markets. Montgomery, Alabama was No. 8 among the undervalued markets.

The data did produce some evidence of prices moderating, according to National City's chief economist, Richard DeKaser.

In Massachusetts, for example, one of the hottest of housing markets over the past few years, each of the seven housing markets analyzed was still overvalued. Prices, however, had fallen in all seven. That would indicate the state is trending back toward normal valuations.

The same could not be said of Florida. The Sunshine State had 15 different markets on the list of extremely overpriced metro areas and all 15 had grown more overpriced during the quarter.

Amidst all these hot and cold markets there were a few judged, like Goldilock's porridge, "just right." They included Albuquerque New Mexico, Dayton Ohio, and Omaha Nebraska. In all those towns actually selling prices closely tracked the expected values


http://money.cnn.com/2005/12/29/real_estate/buying_selling/handicapping_housing_markets/index.htm?section=money_latest
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on January 03, 2006, 10:49:00 AM
come on down to houston lol
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on January 03, 2006, 10:50:49 AM
come on down to houston lol

but it is hot.  :(  how much is a 3-4 bedroom in a relatively nice area?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on January 03, 2006, 10:53:44 AM
depends on what part of town.. i have a friend that bought a 3br 2ba under $120k in a nice area that's being redeveloped (brand new subdivision)...

where I am you can get a 3br 2ba 2 car garage for $140k without the upgrades..

yes it's hot but that's why you have air conditioning..a good car and limited time outside during the summer months.. it's 76 degrees here today.. I do not miss 30 and below this time of year...
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on January 03, 2006, 11:03:13 AM
depends on what part of town.. i have a friend that bought a 3br 2ba under $120k in a nice area that's being redeveloped (brand new subdivision)...

where I am you can get a 3br 2ba 2 car garage for $140k without the upgrades..

yes it's hot but that's why you have air conditioning..a good car and limited time outside during the summer months.. it's 76 degrees here today.. I do not miss 30 and below this time of year...

if you are looking to buy as a relatively shorter term investment, how short could you wait and still get a nice return?
what kind of downpayment is usually required?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Freak on January 03, 2006, 11:22:27 AM
depends on what part of town.. i have a friend that bought a 3br 2ba under $120k in a nice area that's being redeveloped (brand new subdivision)...

where I am you can get a 3br 2ba 2 car garage for $140k without the upgrades..

yes it's hot but that's why you have air conditioning..a good car and limited time outside during the summer months.. it's 76 degrees here today.. I do not miss 30 and below this time of year...

if you are looking to buy as a relatively shorter term investment, how short could you wait and still get a nice return?
what kind of downpayment is usually required?

I purchased a condo in Chicago, renovated it and resold it w/in 8mths...and made a nice profit...
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on January 03, 2006, 11:30:39 AM
Chicago is definitely the place to buy condos and rehab...it's my hometown and I'm trying to buy more property there..

--
E how long is short term?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Freak on January 03, 2006, 11:34:00 AM
Anything less than 3 years is short term. If you live in a place for 3 years + you avoid captital gains.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on January 03, 2006, 11:37:03 AM
lets go with freak and say 2 years-- then also give my options after 4 years (post capital gains)

how much downpayment?  what kind of profits are we talking?  (freak, reign, Max etc feel free to jump in)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Freak on January 03, 2006, 11:46:17 AM
D/P varies depending on your lender, interest rate, points, credit rating and whether you plan on living there. Usually 10% is enough and often 5% or less is acceptable.

Profits are extremely difficult to anticipate. Usually they aren't a percentage of what you spend, instead they're based on the value you can add to the property and most importantly the price you paid.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on January 03, 2006, 11:49:17 AM
It depends on the market and where the home is located.. if you bought a place next to me and wanted to sell in six months you wouldn't get a dime.. but if you bought something new in DC right now (a condo that's being built for example) you'd easily get 10-20k back if you sell in six months to a yr...put no more that 5% into the downpayment...

the best advice that I can give you is to strategically buy a property that is a prime location...because people are GIVING away new condos now because the unemployment rate is up and new home sales are down...

so.. buy condo
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Freak on January 03, 2006, 11:52:06 AM
It depends on the market and where the home is located.. if you bought a place next to me and wanted to sell in six months you wouldn't get a dime.. but if you bought something new in DC right now (a condo that's being built for example) you'd easily get 10-20k back if you sell in six months to a yr...put no more that 5% into the downpayment...

the best advice that I can give you is to strategically buy a property that is a prime location...because people are GIVING away new condos now because the unemployment rate is up and new home sales are down...

so.. buy condo

That's the #1 key, buy when prices are low. Alternatively if you can buy low when the market is hot and get out w/in 6mths or so you golden.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on January 03, 2006, 11:55:45 AM
It depends on the market and where the home is located.. if you bought a place next to me and wanted to sell in six months you wouldn't get a dime.. but if you bought something new in DC right now (a condo that's being built for example) you'd easily get 10-20k back if you sell in six months to a yr...put no more that 5% into the downpayment...

the best advice that I can give you is to strategically buy a property that is a prime location...because people are GIVING away new condos now because the unemployment rate is up and new home sales are down...

so.. buy condo

hey can you put me in touch with someone giving away condos?  that sounds like a sweet deal.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on January 03, 2006, 11:59:15 AM
try to help a sista..and they turn around and make a statement into a joke.. ::) :D
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on January 03, 2006, 12:01:21 PM
try to help a sista..and they turn around and make a statement into a joke.. ::) :D

LMAO.  in all seriousness, how much are new condos going for in DC?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Freak on January 03, 2006, 04:48:06 PM
If you can turn a profit on a new condo in 2yrs you're doing really well. I go for the older ones w/renovation in mind.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on January 07, 2006, 01:55:40 PM
If you can turn a profit on a new condo in 2yrs you're doing really well. I go for the older ones w/renovation in mind.

do you renovate yourself or call around for contractors?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on January 07, 2006, 02:01:14 PM
i called a contractor..but i painted my own house though  ;D
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Freak on January 09, 2006, 12:19:22 AM
If you can turn a profit on a new condo in 2yrs you're doing really well. I go for the older ones w/renovation in mind.

do you renovate yourself or call around for contractors?

We had a the carpet installed (seeming is tough), but we did everything else, tile, cabinets, countertop, paint, sink, dishwasher, vinyl floor, drywall, doors, electrical etc. In the past we've done many other types of work. Typically we contract for heating and carpet and do everthing else ourselves.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on January 15, 2006, 03:36:47 PM
If you can turn a profit on a new condo in 2yrs you're doing really well. I go for the older ones w/renovation in mind.

do you renovate yourself or call around for contractors?

We had a the carpet installed (seeming is tough), but we did everything else, tile, cabinets, countertop, paint, sink, dishwasher, vinyl floor, drywall, doors, electrical etc. In the past we've done many other types of work. Typically we contract for heating and carpet and do everthing else ourselves.

Nothing like hanging drywall to make you feel like Tim Allen on tool time. lol  I can appreciate the independent moves on the home improvements.  This is ultimately what I want to end up doing on a large scale after graduation so that I can give Big Law the finger.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Ed on January 15, 2006, 04:03:34 PM
I have several good friends who swear by the buy-and-flip real estate business. However, when they describe the effort they put into the projects, the time, the risk, and their profits, I find myself wanting to learn more about the details of their expenses and revenues in order to evaluate their businesses better. The business also seems as though it would be more competitive if the profits they tell me about were true and accurate accounts of revenues minus expenses. Yet, I never push too hard, because I don't want to offend them by making them think I lack respect for their businesses. I respect all entrepreneurs in all forms and at all levels. However, I like to know which entrepreneurial ventures are most and least profitable as well.

Have any of you calculated the profit per hour that you have been able to achieve, on average, via your buy-renovate-sell residential real estate investments/businesses? Has anyone achieved more than $100 per hour profit, taking into account all expenses including taxes and opportunity costs, on average, after buying and flipping more than ten residential properties? Is this business lucrative in rapidly growing markets only or in all markets?

I'm just trying to gauge how lucrative investing in renovations of residential homes is? I know there are big profits to be made in speculation and development, commercial and residential. I would like to hear more details about average per hour profits for the buy-and-flip businesses if anyone would be willing to divulge that sort of stuff.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on January 15, 2006, 04:35:19 PM
I'd like to know my self.  I used to help my frat brothers out with this back home by doing the contracting for them for free.  They wanted me to go in on a few houses but I declined b/c I knew I was about to start law school, but I keep up with them and their progress as a means to see where I would have been had I stayed behind and gone that route instead of being here. 

I think it depends on the market of your city.  I got one bruh who rents out to section 8 housing b/c it is guaranteed money every month, and then I got another brother who does that but also flips the houses.  They are not ballin out of control yet but they are definitely doing well for themselves.  But as far as hard figures I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on January 15, 2006, 04:59:34 PM
wish I knew.. I haven't really been interested in the buy-flip option myself.. I feel that it's a better option to buy-renovate and rent...
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Ed on January 15, 2006, 05:21:24 PM
wish I knew.. I haven't really been interested in the buy-flip option myself.. I feel that it's a better option to buy-renovate and rent...

I have found that tax benefits and equity gains (the equity game is very important when it comes to working with banks and partners to finance other business ventures) from the buy and hold strategy do make multi-unit residential properties smart investments in cities that are growing quickly. Do you target single family homes or multi-unit properties primarily?

Additionally, I would guess that pooling resources and buying larger complexes, with more units per acre and in more concentrated locations, would be even smarter investments due to the benefits gained through decreasing the per unit maintainence and property management expenses. Blk, do you hire out property management or do you manage it yourself? If you do it yourself, approximately how many units (I know this will depend on a lot of factors) do you think you'll need to own before you make the move to property management in order to keep your costs per unit down?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on January 15, 2006, 05:48:56 PM
multi-unit...ie brownstones 3 flat...6 apts (roughly 1500 sq ft (maybe a little more) each apt 3br 2ba)...however since I'm in Houston now I've begun to take interest in single family homes especially after the Katrina Hurricane...

I hired a management company recently and they only require a small percentage of the monthly rents... which actually works better because I don't have to deal with the tenants which was very very stressful for me while I was in law school...
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Freak on January 16, 2006, 12:36:55 PM
Been busy folks, sorry.

No, we don't achieve anywhere near $100/hr more like $20-30/hr except the condo in Chicago that was serious money (easily $100/hr).

Of course, there's a learning curve (dry walling for the first time easily takes 10x as long). That partially explains the condo. The key is to buy at the right price and we didn't do that a few times.

The risk is minimal; we have never lost money even on our first renovation and we've never held onto a property for more than 10-11 months.

We always target single family homes; the muli-unit properties take longer to sell; I'd never buy any more than a 4 unit w/o a management company and long-term investment in mind.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on January 17, 2006, 06:00:52 PM
The key is to buy at the right price and we didn't do that a few times.


It seems no matter how much you know about the business this would be a hard thing to predict or ascertain. Outside of what the appraisers value the place at how do you know if you truly are buying at the right price or the right time?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Freak on January 17, 2006, 06:19:49 PM
It depends on how well you estimate renovation costs mainly.

Also, my Dad is a real estate agent and has access to information most people w/o an agent don't have. He can look at how long it has taken for comparable dwellings to sell and at what price they sold. Furthermore, a huge margin of error is built into our analysis, in the neighborhood of 30%. If we feel confident that a 30% mistake will still result in a profit then we feel confident in the purchase. Generally we need some of that margin.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on January 17, 2006, 06:25:59 PM
Ah, I see. Thanks.

So you pretty much make the good ol' SWAG. Sounds good to me.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: MsJay9 on January 18, 2006, 09:32:14 AM
This is very interesting to me.....I would love to be able to buy a couple peices of property to try and hold me over while I was in law school.  I'm always worried about the risk, especially as a woman.  Blk do you have people you deal w/ on a regular basis or people you use so that your aren't taken advantage of.

I mean I'm in the process of buying my first home and this has been more hills than I'd like for it to have been....But i have also been coming across homes that I wouldn't want for myself but that would be great rental investments....especially in my city where housing in pretty affordable.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on January 18, 2006, 09:42:17 AM
Hey MsJay...

I have a management company that I deal with now.. I've been using them for the past five months and life has been easier with it... when I constructed the leases with addendums... I made it pretty clear to my tenants what I expected out of them and haven't had any problems since then...

the addendums were necessary as I've provided a lot of upgrades to this property since they initially moved in.... in other words I let them know that if they cannot appreciate what has been done I'll easily find someone else who will....especially considering the location of the property (very close to University of Chicago and 10 minutes from downtown Chi)


do you have a loan officer? and how's the realtor that you're dealing with ? sometimes it's better to do the MLS search on your own before bringing the realtor into the equation...
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: MsJay9 on January 18, 2006, 10:11:02 AM
Actually I have a loan officer at the bank that I've been w/for years...and then there was another banking officer who I met through the homeownership program that I went through...they were both trying to get my loan but the terms didn't seem right and one of them I didn't feel comfortable with so I stepped back....and its probably best that I did b/c I know that when you're dealing with a 30yr loan its best to go with your gut and I have a pretty good thing about reading peoples vibes.  Well I had to wait until the first of the year to try and qualify for some bond money b/c the rates are about 1.5% lower and u can't beat that w/a bat.  But I want to look into investing after I get settled into my own home.  The realator that I'm working w/ is actually a friend of mine and I am always looking on our mls site and she'll help and when I see something I like she'll do the footwork portion for me.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on January 18, 2006, 01:59:01 PM
Keep plugging Msjay.  If you need anything just holler. 
There seems to be a lot of knowledgeable cats on this thread...good stuff.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Ed on January 18, 2006, 02:21:21 PM
During the summer months last year, I had a few weeks without many commitments. I used some of that time to learn more about real estate, home construction, and real estate finance. I took an accelerated real estate sales agent course locally (didn't take the licensing test nor do I intend to sell real estate professionally), spent about 200 hours looking over shoulders at construction sites and watching appraisals with a buddy, and read (and did the problems for) Real Estate Finance: Theory and Practice, Fifth Ed., by Clauretie & Sirmans, and published by Thomson South-Western. Part II of the text (chapter 4 through 14) discusses the history of residential real estate finance and residential real estate financial tools.

I think everyone would benefit from taking a real estate course—they are cheap but teach you a lot. MsJay and others who want to learn more details about real estate financial products might be interested in the text in particular. It would certainly help your decision-making regarding financial products for your real estate investments. However, a smart and trustworthy friend in the business would also do the trick.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on January 23, 2006, 09:51:45 AM
What You Need to Know Before Rolling Over Your 401k

WASHINGTON -- Are you looking for a new position in the new year? If so, what are your plans for the money you've accumulated in your 401(k), 403b, or similar employer retirement plan?
     
If you've already decided you won't touch it, you're in smart company. A recent study found that an increasing percentage of workers participating in employment-based retirement plans are rolling over all of their lump-sum distributions into another retirement savings account when they leave a job. Fewer people than in past surveys are spending the money, according to a study by the nonpartisan Employee Benefit Research Institute (EBRI).
     
EBRI found that 43.4 percent of lump-sum recipients who received their most recent distribution through 2003 placed all of that money in a tax-qualified savings plan such as an individual retirement account or another employment-based plan. This was up from 19.3 percent through 1993. Can I get an "Amen"? I know I've tried my best to discourage people from pulling money out of their retirement fund.
     
It's tempting to spend some or all of the money you've amassed in your retirement plan. There for the swiping is a pot of cash and you have a pile of bills. But it's a mistake, especially if you are early in your career. For example, as the EBRI study points out, a 25-year-old who leaves an employer after accumulating a $5,000 account balance would have about $24,600 at age 65, assuming a constant 4 percent rate of return compounded monthly. That's not a bad payoff for leaving $5,000 alone, and it could be more if you get a higher return over the years.

So let's go over your options for your retirement money if you change jobs. You can cash out. If you have more than $5,000 in your retirement  account, you can leave the money where it is. You could roll the money over into the retirement plan offered by your new employer (if that is allowed). Or you may decide to put the money into a tax deferred Individual Retirement Account.
     
As far as the first option, unless your financial situation is dire -- as in, no money for food -- don't cash out. You will take a big tax hit for withdrawing the money before you turn 59 1/2, plus you will pay a penalty. The federal government imposes a 10 percent penalty to discourage people from using these funds for anything other than retirement. Although EBRI found that an increasing percentage of people aren't cashing out, far too many people still are.
     
According to research by Hewitt Associates, a human resources services firm, of the nearly 200,000 workers they studied who participate in their 401(k) plans, 45 percent elected to take cash distributions once they left their jobs. The remainder either kept their savings in their current employer's 401(k) plan (32 percent) or rolled the money over to a qualified IRA or other retirement plan (23 percent).
     
Unfortunately, young workers were more likely to cash out. The highest incidence of cash distributions was among employees (66 percent) age 20 to 29, according to the Hewitt study. Still, Hewitt found more than 42 percent of employees between 40 and 49 cashed out of their 401(k) plans when they left their jobs.
     
Thankfully, a new law that went into effect last year now requires employers to automatically open IRAs for departing workers with retirement accounts of $1,000 to $5,000 unless the employee elects otherwise. This should greatly decrease the number of people cashing out, because inertia will keep many from filling out the paperwork needed to get their hands on the money. As for your second option, keeping the money in your old employer's plan is the hassle-free choice. If you're happy with your investment choices in your old plan, then stay put.
     
However, if there was a matching option, you won't be eligible any more and you will lose the ability to borrow from this pot of money if loans were allowed by your former employer. Your third option: Roll over the money into another qualified retirement plan offered by your new employer. Before choosing this option, you should check the investment options at your new job. Employer-sponsored plans vary greatly. Some have a great many options, others are very limited.
     
Finally, you can shift your retirement money into an IRA. If you choose this option, you'll have complete control over how the money is invested. If you roll over the money into an IRA, be sure your former employer sends a check directly to the financial institution setting up your IRA. Otherwise, if you get a distribution check -- even if you plan to roll it over -- your former employer is required to withhold 20 percent for federal income tax purposes.
     
OK, so you're clear on one thing, right? Don't cash out. After that your choices are numerous. Whatever you decide, make the choice to preserve your retirement money when you change jobs.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on January 23, 2006, 11:34:27 AM

Red-state home buyers have it good


Ownership rates on both coasts lag far behind Midwest and South, with incomes unable to keep up with runaway prices. See how your state fares.

 By The Associated Press

If you live in the Midwest or South, chances are you own a home.

If you reside in the Northeast or far West, the odds are greater the dream of homeownership may remain just that, a dream.

Data from the U.S. Census would suggest the culprit is historically high home prices and flat median incomes compared to more affordable interior portions of the country.

A post-World War II economic boom fueled a steady climb in overall homeownership rates from 55% in 1950 to a near all-time high of 69.1% in 2004.

But ownership rates for residents on both coasts lagged somewhat behind the norm. According to U.S. Census figures, key states such as California and New York have played a game of homeownership catch-up for at least 55 years.

California ownership rates have scarcely moved from 54.3% in 1950 to 59.7% today. In New York, ownership is barely above 50%, up just 6 points from 1950.

When those states are lumped with others in the region, the ownership figures improve but are still well behind the percentage for the nation.

The Midwest leads at 73.8%, follow by the South at 71%, with both the West and Northeast at just over 64%.

Have-nots lag further behind
A large gap between the cost of housing and what people earn is a significant factor why ownership is more prevalent in certain areas. Nationally, the median home value is $151,000 with household incomes hovering near $43,000. That's great if you live in Des Moines, Iowa, or Grand Rapids, Mich.

But it's not so good if you live in California or hot pockets of real estate where competition for homes has driven prices through the roof while incomes have stayed so-so. The median home value in California is $391,000 while household income is $49,000. That's a scant $6,000 above the national average. The same can be said for Massachusetts, with home values at $204,700 and incomes at $51,000.

Little wonder coastal states are at the epicenter of the so-called housing price bubble. Federal Reserve Board Chairman Alan Greenspan had doubts about a national housing price bubble, but he told Congress in June of last year of "apparent froth in housing markets" where local bubbles might experience some leakage.

If you own a home in locales with high market valuation, you're in good shape. It's the housing have-nots who may see ownership slip out of their grasp as the disparity between home prices and incomes continues to widen.


 
 http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/Banking/Homebuyingguide/P141312.asp
 
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: angmill08 on January 23, 2006, 02:40:58 PM
Hey MsJay...

I have a management company that I deal with now.. I've been using them for the past five months and life has been easier with it... when I constructed the leases with addendums... I made it pretty clear to my tenants what I expected out of them and haven't had any problems since then...


How much does the management co. charge? Does the tenant's rent cover P&I, taxes, insurance + management fees? Have you been able to keep tenants in the places?

I always thought owning rental properties would be great until I had one to rent. Now I feel like if I raise the rent it would be too high to keep a really good, long term tenant, but without a management company, being a landlord can be a time and energy trap. Every month I make a little money off my rental house (just under $100/mo) which I save in a fund for repairs and what not. During the 7 mos of renting the place, I've already spent $300 on new gutters, so my repair fund is pretty small. I'm sure the place is a good long term investment as long as it pays for itself every month, but it's not much fun to manage and worry about in the meantime. Plus I think I have to report my (meager) rental income on my taxes this year, which means all that will be much more complicated than it ever has been in the past.

Blk_, do you declare your rental income as business income? Do you have to itemize all the income and expenses from the properties? Do your taxes yourself or take them to an accountant? Usually I love tax time because I knock out a 1040 asap and wait for the refund check. This year I am dreading the whole thing.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on January 23, 2006, 02:54:23 PM

$300 a month..which comes out of the rent..at the end of the day it really isn't a loss considering what the tenants are paying in rental fees...all other expenses have been taken care of as well so I'm not coming out of pocket @ this time..I haven't had any problems keeping tenants...and one of the luxuries is that the property sits in a private park...

I declare the income as business (which includes itemizing all expenses incurred for the yr)  and I prepare my own taxes however I  have an accountant to check my figures for me...
 
Hey MsJay...

I have a management company that I deal with now.. I've been using them for the past five months and life has been easier with it... when I constructed the leases with addendums... I made it pretty clear to my tenants what I expected out of them and haven't had any problems since then...


How much does the management co. charge? Does the tenant's rent cover P&I, taxes, insurance + management fees? Have you been able to keep tenants in the places?

I always thought owning rental properties would be great until I had one to rent. Now I feel like if I raise the rent it would be too high to keep a really good, long term tenant, but without a management company, being a landlord can be a time and energy trap. Every month I make a little money off my rental house (just under $100/mo) which I save in a fund for repairs and what not. During the 7 mos of renting the place, I've already spent $300 on new gutters, so my repair fund is pretty small. I'm sure the place is a good long term investment as long as it pays for itself every month, but it's not much fun to manage and worry about in the meantime. Plus I think I have to report my (meager) rental income on my taxes this year, which means all that will be much more complicated than it ever has been in the past.

Blk_, do you declare your rental income as business income? Do you have to itemize all the income and expenses from the properties? Do your taxes yourself or take them to an accountant? Usually I love tax time because I knock out a 1040 asap and wait for the refund check. This year I am dreading the whole thing.
Title: National Urban League Empowerment Fund
Post by: Ed on February 08, 2006, 08:15:47 PM
Those who like to keep their hands in real world entrepreneurship and urban development, please check out the following link:

http://www.nulempowermentfund.com/overview.aspx

If you have questions that are not answered on the website, please feel free to contact me via a PM. If you cannot find support to help you package a deal for a qualifying business, then send me a PM for help there as well. The tax credits offered to the investors who are backing this fund give them just enough of an incentive to stick their noses into business deals they would have ignored otherwise. Those deals could help businesses in some distressed socioeconomic areas that were almost strong enough to access normal capital markets before the tax credits.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: crazy8 on February 08, 2006, 10:22:37 PM
Just read something about this new website.  It still has it's still in a beta version and has its gliches, but it could help somewhat and it's free!

http://zillow.com/
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: seu2002 on February 09, 2006, 09:14:54 PM
hey everyone,

i am trying to claim the educational credits with my income tax returns this year, but i am 100% clueless on how to do this.  i have the 1098-T that was sent to me by the University stating how much I paid last year in tuition, and I have my W-2.  Can I just go into something like taxact.com and e-file my taxes to include the nice little (approx) $1000.00 credit?

ANY advice that anyone can give me on this matter will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks-  seu
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on February 10, 2006, 06:58:25 AM
H&R Block online is good and really easy.  One of the modules has the educational credit in there, you just have to select it and that's it.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: seu2002 on February 10, 2006, 01:13:23 PM
thanks, BP!   :) :) ;)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: faith2005 on February 24, 2006, 10:42:40 AM
The New York Times
February 22, 2006
For Minorities, Signs of Trouble in Foreclosures
By VIKAS BAJAJ and RON NIXON
CLEVELAND — Catrina V. Roberts, a single mother of four, joined a new, growing class of minority homeowners when she moved from her subsidized apartment to a two-story house in 1999.

But Ms. Roberts fell behind on her payments and declared bankruptcy last year. Now, as she loses her modest home to foreclosure, Ms. Roberts may represent the vanguard of a worrying trend of retreat.

The housing boom of the last decade helped push minority home ownership rates above 50 percent for the first time in 2004 and the overall foreclosure rate below 1 percent. Social scientists laud these accomplishments because ownership can foster greater neighborhood stability and economic progress. President Bush cites rising minority ownership as a milestone achievement under his "ownership society" programs.

But hidden behind such success stories lies a disturbing trend: in the last several years, neighborhoods with large poor and minority populations in places like Cleveland, Chicago, Philadelphia and Atlanta have experienced a sharp rise in foreclosures, in some cases more than a doubling, according to an analysis of court filings and other housing data by The New York Times and academic researchers.

The black home ownership rate even dipped slightly last year, according to the Census Bureau.

The increase in foreclosures could be the first of a wave of financial distress for many minority homeowners, experts say, because they are twice as likely as whites to have taken out expensive subprime mortgages, most of which will jump to higher interest rates in the next two years, according to an analysis of data that lenders disclose under the federal Home Mortgage Disclosure Act.

Subprime loans, which are made to borrowers with credit histories that the industry considers less than prime, have interest rates that are, on average, three points higher than the prime rate, about 6.2 percent now, and they carry higher fees and prepayment penalties that make it expensive to refinance.

Some housing experts worry that the minority foreclosure rate could worsen if the economy or the housing market, nationally or regionally, hits a rough patch as it has in industrial Midwestern states like Ohio.

"Anybody who is on the edge, those are factors that can tip them over into foreclosure," said William C. Apgar, a lecturer at Harvard who has studied foreclosure patterns in Atlanta, Chicago and Los Angeles. "That could happen even though foreclosure rates are down."

The example of Ms. Roberts is noteworthy because her loan was not considered subprime. It came from KeyBank, a longstanding Cleveland institution, and carried a relatively low fixed interest rate of 7.4 percent on a principal of $65,000. She never had a credit card, much less a credit record, and put down only $2,000.

Over the years, Ms. Roberts's monthly expenses rose because of repairs to a dilapidated porch and the birth of two grandchildren, but the $880 a month she takes home after taxes from her job as a home health aide did not.

Ms. Roberts, 35, also receives $1,100 in Social Security benefits because two of her younger children have learning disabilities. "I know when you buy a house, eventually you have to put work into it," she said and sighed, "but I didn't know it would lead me here, because if I did I would have never bought it. So, I am at a point right now that I don't want to ever buy a house, ever again."

The Mortgage Bankers Association of America plays down the severity of foreclosures, noting that most new minority homeowners are doing well and that the Midwest is facing unique economic challenges. The trade group estimates that fewer than 1 percent of all loans were in foreclosure in the three months that ended last September, down from 1.5 percent in 2002. For subprime loans, the rate was 3.3 percent, down from 8 percent in 2002.

Trouble in Cuyahoga County

But broad national statistics can obscure hard local realities. In Cuyahoga County, which includes Cleveland, Ms. Roberts's hometown, court filings by lenders seeking to foreclose on delinquent borrowers totaled more than 11,000 in 2005, more than triple the number in 1995.

There were 17 auctions of foreclosed properties for every 100 regular single-family homes sold in the county in 2005, up from 10 in 2004 and 5 in 1995, according to data tabulated by Cleveland State University. (Not all homes that enter foreclosure are sold at auction; sometimes borrowers and lenders settle out of court or the property is sold on the open market.)

There is no way to know how many foreclosures of minority-owned homes have occurred in the Cleveland area, because county filings do not identify people by race. Experts say the closest proxy is the number of auctions of seized homes conducted by a sheriff as a ratio of conventional sales in areas with large minority populations.

In the eastern part of the county, which is 52 percent black and 7 percent Hispanic, the ratio of auctions to regular sales was 23 per 100 last year, up from 9 in 1995. In the west, which is 82 percent white, the ratio was 11 per 100, up from 2.5.

A similar pattern can be seen in Chicago, where foreclosure filings tripled, to 7,576, from 1993 to 2005. Neighborhoods where the population is more than 80 percent non-white account for 65 percent of all cases, up from 61 percent in 1993, according to data compiled by the National Training and Information Center, a housing advocacy and research group based in Chicago. The same trends have been documented in Atlanta and Philadelphia, according to researchers from Harvard and the Reinvestment Fund, a Philadelphia-based investment organization hired by the Pennsylvania Department of Banking to study mortgage foreclosures in the state.

Mr. Apgar and other experts note that foreclosure is the worst, but not the only, negative consequence faced by overextended minority families.

In areas where home prices have appreciated, families that have defaulted on their loan might still be able to sell their homes before they are seized. Though they would lose their homes and damage their credit records, their financial troubles would not register in foreclosure statistics. People who live in the great middle of the country where home prices have not risen rapidly may not have that option because demand there is soft.

At stake are historic gains in minority home ownership rates, which until the mid-1990's had been stagnant for two decades.

Last year, black home ownership fell slightly, to 48.8 percent, from 49.7 percent in 2004, only the second year the rate has declined in the last 10 years. Still, the fact that nearly half of all black households and half of all Hispanic families owned their homes is widely seen as a step forward.

In 1995, fewer than 43 percent of black families and just under 44 percent of Hispanic families owned their own homes. Among all minorities, a group that includes Asians and mixed-race households, the rate was 51 percent in 2005, up from 44 percent a decade ago. By comparison, more than three-quarters of white households owned their own homes in 2005, up from 71 percent.

The Role of Subprime Loans

In addition to lowering crime and revitalizing blighted neighborhoods, home ownership also helps families build wealth that can pay for education and be passed on to the next generation, said Dowell Myers, a professor at the University of Southern California who has studied Hispanic home buying patterns.

Experts attribute the recent increase in minority ownership to income and employment gains, but also to the growth of subprime lending, which provides credit in areas where few lenders and banks operated before. The expansion of credit, particularly to the poorest minorities, has been controversial.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: faith2005 on February 24, 2006, 10:43:09 AM
Advocates for the poor say that aggressive lenders and mortgage brokers have given loans to borrowers who are lured by dreams of home ownership but have few savings and little job security. Many families might be better off, and receive less expensive loans, if they saved for a down payment and paid down other debts before buying a home, said Kathleen E. Keest, a senior policy counsel at the Center for Responsible Lending, a housing advocacy and research group based in Durham, N.C.

And for all the talk of expanding opportunities to the less well-off, experts note that the gap between minority and white home ownership remains unchanged from a decade ago at about 25 percentage points.

Loan data that mortgage lenders must disclose show that minorities are far more likely to receive subprime loans than whites. About 30 percent of home purchase loans made to blacks from 1999 to 2004 and 20 percent of home loans made to Hispanics were subprime, compared with 10.4 percent of loans to Asian-Americans, only slightly higher than for white borrowers.

In 2004, the latest year with data available, nearly 27 percent of loans taken out by minorities were subprime, up from 15 percent in 1999.

The disparities persist even when income is taken into account. Among minority borrowers who made $51,000 to $75,000 a year, 23 percent received subprime loans. By comparison, only 10 percent of whites in the same income bracket did. Minorities who made $151,000 to $175,000 were twice as likely to get a subprime loan as whites were.

The Mortgage Bankers Association said lenders used a number of factors like credit scores and the size of down payments, in addition to income, to determine what kind of loan and interest rates are offered to borrowers. For instance, "whites have traditionally had more wealth than minorities, and that's a factor in who gets what kind of loan, as well," said Douglas G. Duncan, the chief economist at the trade group.

Almost 70 percent of subprime loans issued since 2001 will shift from low, fixed introductory rates to higher adjustable rates in the next two years, according to an analysis by Fannie Mae.

Still, Mr. Duncan added, subprime lending has benefited minorities and lower-income borrowers. For every 100 subprime loans made nationally, only 5 end in foreclosure. Some increase in total foreclosures is to be expected simply because the number of mortgages has increased substantially over the last decade, he said.

Mr. Duncan and others in the industry say that higher foreclosure levels in the Midwest should not be seen as worrying signals for the nation because the region's economic problems are unique.

Ohio lost 215,000 jobs from 2001 to 2005, with 63,800 of them coming from the Cleveland metropolitan area. The state unemployment rate was 5.6 percent in December, up from 4 percent in 2000. The jobless rate in Cleveland was 5.5 percent in December, up from 3.8 percent.

James Rokakis, the Cuyahoga County treasurer and an advocate of tighter lending standards, said a 5 percent national foreclosure rate for subprime loans was acceptable to lenders because their profits were greater on those loans than on prime mortgages. But he noted that his county's 17 percent rate is creating blight in many neighborhoods.

In Slavic Village, once a thriving Eastern European enclave where many of Cleveland's steelworkers lived and now an increasingly black and Hispanic neighborhood, about 500 homes, or 5 percent of its properties, are vacant, Mr. Rokakis said. "Who pays for the damage done to these communities?"

Vikas Bajaj reported from Cleveland for this article and Ron Nixon from New York.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Freak on February 25, 2006, 04:24:30 PM
I didn't read the entire article, but one thing I noted was that other debts should be paid off before buying a home. I would say this is mostly true, especially car and credit card loans, but education loans can usually be deferred and consolidated.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on February 28, 2006, 09:49:43 AM
Lawsuit in the Federal District Court of Maryland Seeks to Eradicate Wrongful Foreclosure and Aggressive Mortgage Servicing Targeting the African-American Community

Attorney William C. Johnson, Jr. exposes fraudulent, deceptive and aggressive foreclosure practices targeted toward the African-American community

Washington, DC (BlackNews.com) - A lawsuit filed in the Federal District Court of Maryland is asking the Court to address the common foreclosure practices that has undermined the American Dream for African-American families in areas heavily populated by minorities. The action is denouncing the practice of "reverse redlining" whereby mortgage servicers have specifically targeted the African-American community in regard to certain services, practices and policies. The implementation of these acts has caused a substantial increase in the number of foreclosures in the African-American community as compared to non-minority communities.

The mortgage servicer is typically an intermediary which engages in the collection of mortgage debt. Rarely originating the loan, the mortgage servicer is often assigned the loan or purchases the loan from the secondary market.

What is most interesting about the lawsuit is its attempt to draw a distinction between predatory lending and predatory mortgage servicing. Recognizing the inability of minorities to obtain conventional financing, the lawsuit notes that aggressive foreclosure practices innately attaches itself to those individuals and households with sub-prime loans. Sub-prime loans, due to its costliness and high interest rates, are inherently harder to maintain by the homeowners and has become quite common in the African-American community. Considering the fact the minority community has been the target of sub-prime loans in years past, it goes without saying they are predisposed to foreclosure when unfair and deceptive trade practices are implemented by the mortgage servicer.

While addressing the predatory lending dilemma garners the attention of the press and legislature, the failure to address predatory mortgage servicing will allow this problem to persist. With the family home often being the largest investment of the vast majority of people, it is time certain protections are in place to prevent mortgage servicers from stealing the African-American dream.

About William C. Johnson, Jr. & Associates, PLLC
William C. Johnson, Jr. & Associates, PLLC is a Civil Rights and Consumer Protection firm practicing in the jurisdictions of Maryland and Washington, D.C. The firm typically provides litigation and transactional advice to businesses and individuals.


CONTACT:
William C. Johnson, Jr., Esq., MBA, LL.M
Phone 202-347-8833 or 202-431-2650
Fax: 301-890-8594
Title: 10-20k downpayment assistance for a home loan in Maryland!!!
Post by: blk_reign on March 10, 2006, 09:47:02 AM
This morning the Donnie Simpson show's guest was Lt. Governor Steele. Lt.Steele highlighted a Maryland housing program that provides 10K for downpayment assistance. He stated that for the month of March they are doubling it to 20K for downpayment and settlement assistance. I reviewed the website and the certificate is posted however it states  10K and not 20K. I'm thinking that it hasn't been updated. However if you're looking to buy in the DC Metro Area specifically Maryland I can help you and this 10-20k downpayment program is definitely a way to come with less cash out of pocket to the table.

http://www.dhcd.state.md.us/Website/programs/cdammp/intro_flash.html
Title: Re: 10-20k downpayment assistance for a home loan in Maryland!!!
Post by: _BP_ on March 10, 2006, 10:22:25 AM
This morning the Donnie Simpson show's guest was Lt. Governor Steele. Lt.Steele highlighted a Maryland housing program that provides 10K for downpayment assistance. He stated that for the month of March they are doubling it to 20K for downpayment and settlement assistance. I reviewed the website and the certificate is posted however it states  10K and not 20K. I'm thinking that it hasn't been updated. However if you're looking to buy in the DC Metro Area specifically Maryland I can help you and this 10-20k downpayment program is definitely a way to come with less cash out of pocket to the table.

http://www.dhcd.state.md.us/Website/programs/cdammp/intro_flash.html

Great stuff Blk_Reign. 
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on March 21, 2006, 02:56:03 PM
what assistance?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Freak on March 21, 2006, 03:23:51 PM
I read the forclosure article again and one tiny hint...IF YOU CAN'T MAKE THE PAYMENTS SELL! Look ahead a little and do some math. For instance, if you live on a fixed income then don't get an adjustable rate mortgage. Furthermore, if you live on a fixed income then move to a smaller town where houses cost less. But if something unexpected does arise then SELL. It's better to take a substantial loss than lose the property in a forclosure.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: | J | on March 21, 2006, 05:54:24 PM
I read the forclosure article again and one tiny hint...IF YOU CAN'T MAKE THE PAYMENTS SELL! Look ahead a little and do some math. For instance, if you live on a fixed income then don't get an adjustable rate mortgage. Furthermore, if you live on a fixed income then move to a smaller town where houses cost less. But if something unexpected does arise then SELL. It's better to take a substantial loss than lose the property in a forclosure.


Common sense isn't a gift everyone has.

I think it's something intrinsic to the human psyche that causes us to resist giving things up.  I've noticed it in myself, and my wife.  It makes it hard for people to downsize even when necessary.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Rudy Huckleberry on March 22, 2006, 08:15:45 AM
I read the forclosure article again and one tiny hint...IF YOU CAN'T MAKE THE PAYMENTS SELL! Look ahead a little and do some math. For instance, if you live on a fixed income then don't get an adjustable rate mortgage. Furthermore, if you live on a fixed income then move to a smaller town where houses cost less. But if something unexpected does arise then SELL. It's better to take a substantial loss than lose the property in a forclosure.


Common sense isn't a gift everyone has.

I think it's something intrinsic to the human psyche that causes us to resist giving things up.  I've noticed it in myself, and my wife.  It makes it hard for people to downsize even when necessary.

I'd advise against engaging this person. (Whitegirl.)

Whitegirl, your avatar looks awfully familiar.  Is it one of those stock avatars or are you that chick I met at HLS last year? :(
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: faith2005 on April 12, 2006, 11:05:49 AM
this is cool!

http://www.madison.com/wsj/home/biz/index.php?ntid=79806&ntpid=3 (http://www.madison.com/wsj/home/biz/index.php?ntid=79806&ntpid=3)

TUE., APR 11, 2006 - 9:43 PM
Three women build legacy for others
MARV BALOUSEK mbalousek@madison.com
When Deloris "Dee" Sims reached about age 55, she dreamed of retiring.

She had worked 28 years in banking and had risen to vice president at Firstar Corp., now U.S. Bank, in Milwaukee.

"I wanted to go and (lie) on a beach and enjoy myself for once in my life," she said.

Now 62, Sims still hasn't retired. Instead, she is chief executive of Legacy Bank of Milwaukee, which was founded in 1999 by three African-American women. Her partners were Margaret Henningsen, now the bank's vice president, and Shirley Lanier, the former wife of professional basketball Hall of Fame center Bob Lanier.

Starting from scratch, the three women spent two years raising money before chartering the bank in 1999 with $7 million in assets. Today, the bank has 35 employees and assets of $136 million.

Sims and Henningsen spoke Tuesday to TEMPO Madison, a group of professional women who met at the Madison Club.

Henningsen, 59, was a vice president at Republic Capital Bank in Milwaukee when she decided to launch what would become Legacy Bank.

"What I saw was women and minorities were not treated the same as white males when it came to lending, capital and money," she said. "I asked myself: What can I do about it?"

Founding the bank was a long way from Henningsen's bankruptcy filing years earlier after a divorce from her first husband.

Sims said she reluctantly took a large chunk of her retirement account to commit $150,000 to the new venture. She was delighted shortly afterward when she said her retirement account doubled in value after Firstar was sold.

Legacy Bank's mission is to be innovative in providing financial services to those who aren't served well while building the economic base of the community. In accomplishing that mission, the bank takes advantage of programs through the federal Small Business Administration, the Wisconsin Housing and Economic Development Authority and new market tax credits.

Loans from Legacy Bank have financed home construction and businesses such as a barbecue restaurant and a food market. Legacy Redevelopment Corp., a nonprofit bank offshoot, also has financed home construction.

Now that the bank is firmly established, Sims said the next step is to make sure it survives.

"We named it Legacy because we think it will be in our community for a very long time," she said.

Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: HippieLawChick on April 12, 2006, 11:44:55 AM
I live in Milwaukee, and Legacy Bank has been a real asset to the community.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: MsJay9 on May 11, 2006, 12:08:05 PM
Hello All,

I have not posted on here in a while as life has been really demanding.  But i wanted to share my good news with you all since I had been asking a lot of questions on here and people were so helpful.  I closed on my house on Tuesday so I am officially a Home Owner!!   Just wanted to share! :)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 11, 2006, 12:12:59 PM
congrats on the big move
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: MsJay9 on May 11, 2006, 12:21:36 PM
Thank You!

congrats on the big move
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 11, 2006, 12:22:25 PM
Hello All,

I have not posted on here in a while as life has been really demanding.  But i wanted to share my good news with you all since I had been asking a lot of questions on here and people were so helpful.  I closed on my house on Tuesday so I am officially a Home Owner!!   Just wanted to share! :)

congrats!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on May 12, 2006, 07:14:46 AM
Hello All,

I have not posted on here in a while as life has been really demanding.  But i wanted to share my good news with you all since I had been asking a lot of questions on here and people were so helpful.  I closed on my house on Tuesday so I am officially a Home Owner!!   Just wanted to share! :)

CONGRATULATIONS MS JAY!!!!
[/color]
Girl, I was wondering what you were up to.  I posted a "where she be at" post a while back looking for you.  Anyhow, great news.  You did it! :-)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: MsJay9 on May 12, 2006, 08:17:33 AM
Thank You!  That's really sweet that u noticed I was m.i.a.  Life has been busy!!!!  I will try to get on here more often when the summer comes.  I am going on vacation.  I'm going on a cruise to Jamaica.....I need this break.   :)

Hello All,

I have not posted on here in a while as life has been really demanding.  But i wanted to share my good news with you all since I had been asking a lot of questions on here and people were so helpful.  I closed on my house on Tuesday so I am officially a Home Owner!!   Just wanted to share! :)

CONGRATULATIONS MS JAY!!!!
[/color]
Girl, I was wondering what you were up to.  I posted a "where she be at" post a while back looking for you.  Anyhow, great news.  You did it! :-)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: faith2005 on May 12, 2006, 01:50:49 PM
Congrats!  :)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: smujd2007 on May 16, 2006, 09:57:27 PM
I know this is late but congrats ms. jay! :)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Freak on May 20, 2006, 02:18:49 PM
2L finals are over!!! It feels so good, maybe a little like becoming a home owner for the first time?!

Congrats Ms. Jay!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: revelareveritas on June 04, 2006, 10:24:38 AM
Sh*t, I can't even afford a house and I'm a WASP with an advanced education!  >:( I think we're all indentured servants anyway... FIGHT CLUB!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Rudy Huckleberry on June 04, 2006, 11:49:47 AM
Sh*t, I can't even afford a house and I'm a WASP with an advanced education!  >:(

Are you supposed to be able to afford a house faster than a Black person with an advanced education?  ??? Please explain thyself.

I'm extra extra late since I don't usually read this thread, but CONGRATS TO MS. JAY!  That's so awesome :)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: cui bono? on June 04, 2006, 03:53:35 PM
Hey ya'll If you ever have any real estate questions lemme know.  I have my license as a realestate salesperson in NY State and I work with Coldwell Banker.  I'd be glad to help you guys w/ any concerns.   :) 
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Rudy Huckleberry on June 04, 2006, 06:45:03 PM
Hey ya'll If you ever have any real estate questions lemme know.  I have my license as a realestate salesperson in NY State and I work with Coldwell Banker.  I'd be glad to help you guys w/ any concerns.   :) 

Wow - nice, girl! :)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: cui bono? on June 04, 2006, 10:07:26 PM
Hey ya'll If you ever have any real estate questions lemme know.  I have my license as a realestate salesperson in NY State and I work with Coldwell Banker.  I'd be glad to help you guys w/ any concerns.   :) 

Wow - nice, girl! :)

Thanx!   ;D  Seriously, would love to help
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Taco on June 15, 2006, 02:39:55 PM
When I get out of taco debt, ill hit you up.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on July 03, 2006, 02:47:57 PM
for those of you planning on living in NYC and DC, do you really think youll be able to afford a nice house?

I don't think I would ever stay in the City.  If we're talking "nice" places, NYC has the following:

Uptdown apartments run:  $4600/mo - $29,000/mo

Midtown apartments run:  $4200/mo - $28,500/mo

Downtown apartmetns run: $3900/mo - $30,000/mo


I'll keep a spot in Jersey somewhere and gladly take the 15 minute subway into manhattan everyday, thanks.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: 2Lacoste on July 03, 2006, 03:25:39 PM
That's why a brother is leaving NYC (though I'll likely end up in DC -- little to no improvement there).
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: angmill08 on July 03, 2006, 03:47:23 PM
My bet is that the DC & NYC markets will slow down a lot over the next 5 years. So I'm going to rent and wait and see.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: cui bono? on July 03, 2006, 03:52:09 PM
Sure the markets will slow down, as with anything of that nature, but the markets here will always be high.  You'll find me in the ATL within the next 10-15 years

Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: cui bono? on July 04, 2006, 04:01:03 PM
Sure the markets will slow down, as with anything of that nature, but the markets here will always be high.  You'll find me in the ATL within the next 10-15 years

"finally" - Coldwell Banker lic. real estate agent agent

Atlanta is nice too...

VERY- You can live like a king for like $400,000- here a broken down house could go for that
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on July 04, 2006, 09:06:02 PM
Atlanta is nice, but after spending the summer in DC, I see many ways in which it is lacking.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: cui bono? on July 04, 2006, 09:08:18 PM
Atlanta is nice, but after spending the summer in DC, I see many ways in which it is lacking.

like what?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on July 04, 2006, 09:12:41 PM
Cultural offerings, architecture, public transportation, proximity to other major cities, general sense of being at the world's political center and the concomitant concentration of brainpower and elite/powerful organizations.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on July 04, 2006, 09:14:26 PM
lol.  someone is hooked. :D  ;)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on July 04, 2006, 09:19:27 PM
lol.  someone is hooked. :D  ;)

Lol.  Pretty much, but I still might split.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: cui bono? on July 04, 2006, 09:21:13 PM
lol.  someone is hooked. :D  ;)

Lol.  Pretty much, but I still might split.

where would u prefer?  are u just set on DC?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on July 04, 2006, 09:40:17 PM
I prefer DC, but I have some pretty strong ATL connections.  I'm thinking of splitting next summer to decide what my best course of action is.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on July 04, 2006, 09:56:12 PM
I prefer DC, but I have some pretty strong ATL connections.  I'm thinking of splitting next summer to decide what my best course of action is.

yeah if you are still interested in what I think you are, splitting is the best move.  you don't want to be too yankified
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: THE BLUE SWEATER on July 05, 2006, 09:34:47 AM
You can never be too yankified.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Freak on July 05, 2006, 09:45:04 AM
You can never be too yankified.

that is soooooooooooooooo not true!

I beg to differ.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: 2Lacoste on July 05, 2006, 09:45:45 AM
You can never be too yankified.


Oh yes indeed you can.  I think I might end up on Alci's path -- splitting between DC and my Southern dream city (Charlotte) -- in the future.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: crazy8 on July 05, 2006, 09:54:46 AM
You can never be too yankified.


Oh yes indeed you can.  I think I might end up on Alci's path -- splitting between DC and my Southern dream city (Charlotte) -- in the future.

What is NC in general like?  I just got off UNC's waitlist, but never seriously considered the school because I know nothing about the area.  Visisted it a couple times and thought it was nice.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Inquirer on July 05, 2006, 09:58:55 AM
You can never be too yankified.


Oh yes indeed you can.  I think I might end up on Alci's path -- splitting between DC and my Southern dream city (Charlotte) -- in the future.

What is NC in general like?  I just got off UNC's waitlist, but never seriously considered the school because I know nothing about the area.  Visisted it a couple times and thought it was nice.

I've heard only good things about NC.  The cost of living is low, the people are supposed to be nice, the area is supposed to be really pretty, and there's supposed to be a pretty good professional job market.  

Some of my friends are trying to convince me to move to Charlotte or Raleigh, but I'm not in the mood to be that far down South...

Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Freak on July 05, 2006, 09:59:48 AM
You can never be too yankified.


Oh yes indeed you can.  I think I might end up on Alci's path -- splitting between DC and my Southern dream city (Charlotte) -- in the future.

What is NC in general like?  I just got off UNC's waitlist, but never seriously considered the school because I know nothing about the area.  Visisted it a couple times and thought it was nice.

I've heard only good things about NC.  The cost of living is low, the people are supposed to be nice, the area is supposed to be really pretty, and there's supposed to be a pretty good professional job market.  

Some of my friends are trying to convince me to move to Charlotte or Raleigh, but I'm not in the mood to be that far down South...


I heard the same, but my info is 6-7 years old.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Inquirer on July 05, 2006, 10:01:33 AM

I heard the same, but my info is 6-7 years old.

I just heard that... In fact, two of my Sorors are moving there within the year - they are planning to build houses near Raleigh. 

Charlotte and Raleigh/Durham seem to always be high up on the lists of "Best Places for Black People" in Black Enterprise and Ebony.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Freak on July 05, 2006, 10:11:03 AM

I heard the same, but my info is 6-7 years old.

I just heard that... In fact, two of my Sorors are moving there within the year - they are planning to build houses near Raleigh. 

Charlotte and Raleigh/Durham seem to always be high up on the lists of "Best Places for Black People" in Black Enterprise and Ebony.

Same for whites, actually. It's just a great place from what I understand.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on July 05, 2006, 11:06:09 AM
You can never be too yankified.


Oh yes indeed you can.  I think I might end up on Alci's path -- splitting between DC and my Southern dream city (Charlotte) -- in the future.

especially for you, titcr
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: cui bono? on July 05, 2006, 11:24:55 AM

I heard the same, but my info is 6-7 years old.

I just heard that... In fact, two of my Sorors are moving there within the year - they are planning to build houses near Raleigh. 

Charlotte and Raleigh/Durham seem to always be high up on the lists of "Best Places for Black People" in Black Enterprise and Ebony.

really  I thought ATL was the place to go
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: pikey on July 05, 2006, 11:45:36 AM

I heard the same, but my info is 6-7 years old.

I just heard that... In fact, two of my Sorors are moving there within the year - they are planning to build houses near Raleigh. 

Charlotte and Raleigh/Durham seem to always be high up on the lists of "Best Places for Black People" in Black Enterprise and Ebony.

really  I thought ATL was the place to go

ATL has its good and bad points.  Alci had a good list of it's negative points.  It's nice if you want a city in the South, but most people don't live in the city.  It doesn't really have the walkable neighborhoods that most larger cities like DC and NYC have.  A car is prectically a necessity in Atl.

Charlotte and Raleigh are both good smaller cities.  They have the amenities of a big city, but on a smaller scale.  The plus is lower cost of living and a slower pace.  I know a lot of people from my ug who moved to Charlotte because Wachovia and Bank of America both have their headquarters there, so there's still a decent amount of younger people.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Hybrid Vigor on July 05, 2006, 11:50:03 AM
Atlanta is finished. Atlanta was hot like 10 years ago, if you come here now you done missed the boat. This is home for me so I'll always love it, but it's not the place to move as far as the happening scene.


I think NC is a great place for the COL. Most places with similiar housing prices are either backwoods as hell or in Texas (or both).
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: cui bono? on July 05, 2006, 11:51:52 AM
Atlanta is finished. Atlanta was hot like 10 years ago, if you come here now you done missed the boat. This is home for me so I'll always love it, but it's not the place to move as far as the happening scene.


I think NC is a great place for the COL. Most places with similiar housing prices are either backwoods as hell or in Texas (or both).

dang CN, how do u really feel?  :D
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Hybrid Vigor on July 05, 2006, 11:53:14 AM
That's the truth, Ruth. Don't move down here thinking you are gon snag you some baller (or any kinda man, unless you like DL ones) or go to any really hot parties. The ATL social scene is kinda tired.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on July 05, 2006, 11:54:23 AM
That's the truth, Ruth. Don't move down here thinking you are gon snag you some baller (or any kinda man, unless you like DL ones) or go to any really hot parties. The ATL social scene is kinda tired.

LMAO. 
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: cui bono? on July 05, 2006, 11:55:05 AM
That's the truth, Ruth. Don't move down here thinking you are gon snag you some baller (or any kinda man, unless you like DL ones) or go to any really hot parties. The ATL social scene is kinda tired.

dang gyrl!   :D Man I aint even thinking 'bout snaggin no man- not one of them sistas going professional just to get a hubby.  No siree not me!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on July 05, 2006, 12:00:47 PM
I think Atlanta still has potential if you're interested in helping refine the city.  It grew and grew over the past couple of decades, but it didn't grow services and other living-enhancing attributes to match.  Now it's time for the other stuff to catch up.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: cui bono? on July 05, 2006, 12:02:15 PM
I think Atlanta still has potential if you're interested in helping refine the city.  It grew and grew over the past couple of decades, but it didn't grow services and other living-enhancing attributes to match.  Now it's time for the other stuff to catch up.

hmm good point  something to consider
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: pikey on July 05, 2006, 12:08:34 PM
I think Atlanta still has potential if you're interested in helping refine the city.  It grew and grew over the past couple of decades, but it didn't grow services and other living-enhancing attributes to match.  Now it's time for the other stuff to catch up.

hmm good point  something to consider

I agree with CN and Alci.  Atl today isn't the city I expected when I went there for school, but it has the potential to be great again.  Watch this space.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Hybrid Vigor on July 05, 2006, 12:23:34 PM
Don't get me wrong folks - Atlanta is a good place to live, most definitely. It's just not the hot scene, party wise, that it used to be back in the late 90s/2000. These days, you gotta go to Miami or Vegas for that.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on July 05, 2006, 12:37:18 PM
I guess my point is that the relative cheapness of ATL does not come without costs.  Generally, the more expensive the city, the more services and QOL enhancements offered.  NYC is expensive as hell, but it has great public transportation, lots of cultural offerings, world class resources, and access to the world's financial elite.  Lots of people want to live there, putting real estate at a premium.  Atlanta is a nice city in which to settle down and raise a family on a modest income...but don't think it really compares to NYC or DC in terms of QOL if you value the above-mentioned things.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: 2Lacoste on July 05, 2006, 12:41:01 PM
You can never be too yankified.


Oh yes indeed you can.  I think I might end up on Alci's path -- splitting between DC and my Southern dream city (Charlotte) -- in the future.

especially for you, titcr



Do most firms let you split or is it only a select few that are open to that kind of deal?  And this would likely have to be in the second year, right (unless you go to Yale -- got some YLS 1L friends splitting)?

BTW, Charlotte is wonderful.  I just hope it doesn't explode too much between now and when I get down there!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on July 05, 2006, 12:42:42 PM
Most firms "require" you to split the first half of your summer with them.  So what you usually have to do is pick your favorite, then force the other firm to let you split the second half with them.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: 2Lacoste on July 05, 2006, 12:50:16 PM
Most firms "require" you to split the first half of your summer with them.  So what you usually have to do is pick your favorite, then force the other firm to let you split the second half with them.


Is it possible to split, say, DC firm -- NC public interest type?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on July 05, 2006, 12:50:56 PM
Yep.  Some firms will even pay you to do it.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on July 05, 2006, 12:51:19 PM
Most firms "require" you to split the first half of your summer with them.  So what you usually have to do is pick your favorite, then force the other firm to let you split the second half with them.


Is it possible to split, say, DC firm -- NC public interest type?

yes thats easy, but you won't make any money for the NC portion.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: 2Lacoste on July 05, 2006, 12:52:10 PM
Most firms "require" you to split the first half of your summer with them.  So what you usually have to do is pick your favorite, then force the other firm to let you split the second half with them.


Is it possible to split, say, DC firm -- NC public interest type?



yes thats easy, but you won't make any money for the NC portion.

Money is no object.  You know, I got all that Truman money to cover all 3 years of tuition and then some!   ;) :D


EDIT:  The other thing is that Charlotte firms are mostly finance and banking-type firms.  Not my cup of tea.  At all.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: KeepitRealGirl on July 27, 2006, 03:50:45 PM
Tag for my reads.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on March 16, 2007, 06:18:04 PM
Scary Math: More Homes, Fewer Buyers
The problem with subprime lenders means there will be more homes in an over-supplied market and not as many people who can step in to make purchases.
By Les Christie, CNN
March 16, 2007
Subprime lenders are already getting crushed, but the impact rising mortgage delinquencies will have on home prices overall is still an open question.

At a minimum, it means financing is drying up for those with less-than-perfect credit and that spells fewer home buyers.

And foreclosed properties will add supply to a housing market that already has too much.

"It's going to be a really big deal," says Dean Baker, co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy Research.

"[National] inventory is 20 percent higher than last year, vacancy rates have soared and prices are down about 3 percent," he says. "Now, with the tightening of credit, I don't see how prices don't fall another 5, 6 or 7 percent."

The tightening of credit could take as many as one million buyers out of the market, says Baker, citing Bear Stearns research. "Even if you cut that in half, say to 400,000 or 500,000, that's huge."

Mark Zandi, chief economist for Moody's Economy.com, is also concerned. "I think the subprime problems will take housing activity to a whole other level," he says.

Zandi is projecting a doubling of subprime defaults this year to 800,000. "Those homes will go on the market at a discount and will weigh on the market," he says. He also believes that 500,000 fewer Americans will be able to obtain financing because of the tighter standards.

All that has led Zandi to alter his projection of a 3 percent decline in housing prices this year to a mid-single digit decline. The hardest hit areas, which he thinks will be Arizona, Nevada, parts of California and Florida, will absorb high single digit or even double-digit punches.

Not everyone paints as bleak a picture. "We don't know how many subprime mortgage holders will actually default," says Christopher Mayer, an economist at Columbia University. "Banks are working with borrowers [so they can keep their homes]. Plus, there's plenty of liquidity around for people looking for mortgage loans."

That's not to say he sees everything as hunkey-dorey. Mayer thinks values in speculative markets had gotten way ahead of fundamentals and that weak local economies in the Midwest will depress values there.

The extent of the subprime delinquency problem is disputed. According to a report from the Center for Responsible Lending (CRL), about 1 in 5 of the subprime loans written in the past two years will go into default, costing 1.1 million their homes and unleashing a flood of foreclosed homes on the market.

But Doug Duncan, chief economist of the Mortgage Bankers Association, thinks CRL is overly pessimistic, noting that defaults for subprime mortgages have never exceeded 10 percent in any given year.

And he argues that most of the loans written before mid-2005 are unlikely to fail because they are already out of the danger zone - they've either reset with their borrowers continuing to pay them off or the increased housing values that accompanied the boom have boosted home equity enough so that owners have comfortable cushions.

More significant than defaults may be the impact of credit tightening.

"Banks have become much more cautious. Lenders are tightening, not just subprimes, but Alt-As (not quite prime) loans and primes as well," says Ellen Bitton, founder of the Park Avenue Mortgage Group.

Lawrence Yun, an economist with the National Association of Realtors, which tends to have an optimistic view of home markets, is projecting the number of potential homebuyers unable to obtain financing because of the subprime crisis will average about 20,000 a quarter.

Defaults, he believes, will come to perhaps one-half of one percent of mortgage holders, perhaps 200,000 homeowners. NAR's position is that the impact on prices will be only slight.

"Unlike the last housing crisis in the early 1990s, the economy is very sound; people are getting jobs, not losing jobs," says Yun.

Baker, perhaps the most pessimistic of the prognosticators (he is someone who sold his Washington, D.C. home a couple of years ago in anticipation of it falling in value), saves most of his concern for the markets that had the most speculation - Las Vegas, Arizona and parts of Florida. Meanwhile New York, Boston, and coastal California, and even D.C. should hold up OK, he says.

http://promo.realestate.yahoo.com/More_Homes_Fewer_Buyers.html
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on March 18, 2007, 02:43:03 PM
Wink at OSA:

Easing That Mid-April Angst
Get the Ball Rolling Early With These Tax Tips

By Kathleen Day
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, March 18, 2007; F01

The deadline for filing taxes is 30 days away, a countdown that's costing many veteran and novice taxpayers a good night's sleep.

"I know the deadline, but I don't know what I'm required to submit," said Jennifer Ash, 22, who graduated from George Mason University in May and will pay taxes for the first time on a full-time job. "All the forms are in different places. I'm afraid of leaving something out. I don't want the IRS coming back years later saying I owe them thousands of dollars."

Ash at least has collected her paperwork in one place -- W-2 forms stating her wages for the year, college-loan payment stubs and totals paid in interest, receipts for charitable giving and for the Treo smartphone she uses mostly for work. Being organized is more essential than ever: The Internal Revenue Service has cracked down on receipts, requiring one for even tiny claims.

"If I had to give one piece of advice to anyone, keep receipts and keep them for three good years past when you file your return," said Stef Tucker, an attorney with Venable.

But being organized won't necessarily make the rules easier to fathom -- if you can find out about them in the first place. Many taxpayers simply won't take advantage of breaks, experts say.

As of mid-February, 10 million taxpayers, or about 30 percent of those who had filed, did not request a one-time refund of a telephone excise tax that ranges from $30 to $60 and that nearly everyone can claim.

And while most folks know the peril of filing late if they owe the government money -- penalties, interest charges, scary letters and potential visits from IRS agents -- many may not know that filing too early can also have drawbacks. The 1099 form summarizing dividends and interest payments that banks, brokerages and other financial firms send clients in January often is revised in February or March, requiring taxpayers to amend returns.

Not until Feb. 3 could IRS computers handle 2006 returns claiming breaks Congress extended at the last minute last year, including deductions for state and local sales taxes, higher-education tuition and fees, and teacher expenses. Electronic forms filed before Feb. 3 that claimed any of these breaks must be resubmitted, while paper versions were set aside to process after that date.

As always, taxpayers need to remember the distinction between tax deductions or exemptions, which reduce the amount of income that is taxable, and tax credits, which reduce the actual amount of tax owed.

Low-income wage earners who claim the earned-income credit may also qualify for the saver's credit, which Congress recently made permanent. It permits a family earning $50,000 or less that puts money in a work retirement plan to cut a tax bill or boost a refund by up to $1,000.

Wealthier taxpayers must calculate taxes first under regular rules, then under the alternative minimum tax, and pay whichever is higher. The AMT was created in 1969 to target 155 wealthy tax-dodgers, but because it's not indexed for inflation, it could affect an estimated 4.2 million families when they calculate their taxes next month. Taxpayers in high-tax jurisdictions such as Maryland and the District are especially vulnerable. (Unless Congress changes the law, 19 million more households, many earning as little as $50,000 a year, could end up paying the tax next year, as would nearly half of all taxpayers by 2017.)

All taxpayers should take advantage of retirement credits -- you have until the April filing deadline, for example, to invest in an individual retirement account for 2006. A recent survey of nearly 1,300 adults by CCH, a tax-consulting firm, found that 18-to-24-year-olds are the least likely to participate in tax-advantaged retirement plans, such as 401(k)s. A new law lets companies automatically enroll new workers in such plans, but the survey found that young adults say their employers don't explain these programs well or help workers take full advantage of them.

New graduates need to know the rules governing work-related tax deductions. First, itemizations must exceed the standard deduction, which this year is $5,150 for a single adult, said David Sharkey, a certified public accountant with Ryan, Sharkey & Crutchfield in Herndon.

Mortgage interest, taxes on a home or car or boat, charitable contributions and unreimbursed employee expenses are all potential claims to itemize.

So can Ash claim part of her Treo? Tucker says taxpayers can itemize a claim only if they can show how much the equipment was used for work. Phone bills could prove what percentage of the time a cellphone is used for work, for example.

But the rules are tricky. Tax lawyers say individuals who go it alone should use a good computer program. Intuit's TurboTax and H&amp;R Block's TaxCut are popular.

Taxpayers with adjusted gross income of $52,000 or less -- attention recent college graduates -- can have their taxes prepared free through the IRS "Free File" program on the agency's Web site, http://www.irs.gov.

Since its 2003 debut, Free File has been used to file 15.4 million returns, but that's a fraction of the returns that could have been filed through it. The IRS says 70 percent of tax filers, or 95 million people, could qualify for the program this year and hopes a larger percentage will use it.

Paralegal Chad Harple, a history and international studies major who graduated from Yale University in May, says he's going to use Free File. But his friend and fellow Yale graduate, Julia Pudlin, is going with an option many first-time filers find even easier: parents.

"I'm embarrassed to say that's the case," Pudlin said. "I sent my stuff to my dad. It was just too daunting, and my dad is tax lawyer."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/17/AR2007031700106.html
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on March 26, 2007, 10:40:34 AM
Sales of new homes fall sharply By MARTIN CRUTSINGER, AP Economics Writer
2 hours, 22 minutes ago
 


WASHINGTON - Sales of new homes fell sharply for a second consecutive month in February, a weaker-than-expected performance that dimmed hopes for a rebound in the troubled housing market.

ADVERTISEMENT
 
The        Commerce Department reported Monday that sales of new single-family homes fell by 3.9 percent last month to a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 848,000, the slowest sales pace in nearly seven years. All regions of the country except the West experienced weakness last month.

The February decline followed an even larger 15.8 percent drop in sales in January, which had been the largest one-month plunge in 13 years. The back-to-back declines provided evidence that the housing market is continuing to struggle with lagging demand and a glut of unsold homes.

The weakness in sales pushed the median price of a new home down to $250,000 in February, a drop of 0.3 percent from a year ago. It marked the second straight month that the median price fell compared with the same period a year ago. The median is the point where half the homes sold for more and half for less.

By region of the country, sales were up 24.6 percent in the West, a rebound after a 25.8 percent plunge in January.

However, every other region showed weakness last month, led by a 26.8 percent drop in sales in the Northeast and a 20 percent decline in the Midwest, two areas which experienced a series of winter storm. Sales also fell in the South, dropping by 7 percent.

The performance of new home sales was in contrast to a report last week that sales of existing homes rose in February by the largest amount in nearly three years.

Analysts had expected new home sales to increase in February as well, based on a view that January's steep plunge had overstated the weakness in housing.

The back-to-back declines in the new home market served to support the forecasts of private analysts who believe the slowdown in housing has more months to run its course.

The housing bust is coming after a housing boom in which sales of both new and existing homes set records for five straight years.

Some analysts see the current slowdown as a correction from a period of speculative frenzy in which investors were buying second homes in hopes of reselling them quickly to make profits on the double-digit gains in prices in the hottest sales areas in the country such as California and Florida.

The sales decline that has occurred over the past year has left a glut of unsold homes on the market, forcing builders to slash prices and offer a number of incentives to attract buyers.

For February, the number of unsold homes rose by 1.5 percent to 546,000. That meant it would take 8.1 months to sell all of those homes at the February sales pace, up from 7.3 months in January.

The problems in housing are being increased by spreading financial difficulties with mortgage lenders who specialized in the subprime market, where borrowers with weaker credit histories could qualify for mortgages.

The plunge in housing has trimmed overall economic growth and is occurring as part of an effort by the        Federal Reserve to raise interest rates as a way of slowing economic activity and keeping inflation under control
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on April 12, 2007, 09:29:22 AM
A Word of Advice During a Housing Slump: Rent
By DAVID LEONHARDT

A promotional spot for the National Association of Realtors came on the radio the other day. The spot, introduced as something called “Newsmakers,” was supposed to sound like a news report, with the association’s president offering real estate advice.

“This is the best time to buy,” Pat Vredevoogd Combs, the president, said cheerfully. “There’s a lot of inventory in the marketplace. Interest rates are low. It’s a wonderful tax deduction.”

By the Realtors’ way of thinking, it’s always a good time to buy. Homeownership, they argue, is a way to achieve the American dream, save on taxes and earn a solid investment return all at the same time.

That’s how it has worked out for much of the last 15 years. But in a stark reversal, it’s now clear that people who chose renting over buying in the last two years made the right move. In much of the country, including large parts of the Northeast, California, Florida and the Southwest, recent home buyers have faced higher monthly costs than renters and have lost money on their investment in the meantime. It’s almost as if they have thrown money away, an insult once reserved for renters.

Most striking, perhaps, is the fact that prices may not yet have fallen far enough for buying to look better than renting today, except for people who plan to stay in a home for many years.

With the spring moving season under way, The New York Times has done an analysis of buying vs. renting in every major metropolitan area. The analysis includes data on housing costs and looks at different possibilities for the path of home prices in coming years.

It found that even though rents have recently jumped, the costs that come with buying a home — mortgage payments, property taxes, fees to real estate agents — remain a lot higher than the costs of renting. So buyers in many places are basically betting that home prices will rise smartly in the near future.

Over the next five years, which is about the average amount of time recent buyers have remained in their homes, prices in the Los Angeles area would have to rise more than 5 percent a year for a typical buyer there to do better than a renter. The same is true in Phoenix, Las Vegas, the New York region, Northern California and South Florida. In the Boston and Washington areas, the break-even point is about 4 percent.

“House prices have to fall more before housing becomes a clear buy again,” says Mark Zandi, chief economist of Moody’s Economy.com, a research company that helped conduct the analysis. “These markets aren’t as overvalued as they were a year ago or two years ago, but they’re still unfriendly. And that’s one of the reasons the market is still soft — people realize it’s not a bargain.”

There is obviously no way to know what home prices will do in the next few years. But there are two big reasons to doubt the real estate boosters who insist that it’s once again a great time to buy.

The first is history. After the last big run-up in house prices, in the 1980s, a long slump followed. In the New York area, prices peaked in early 1989 and then fell 9 percent over the next three years, according to government data. (Adjusted for inflation, the drop was much bigger.) Not until 1998 did prices pass their earlier peak.

Keep in mind that the 2000-5 boom was even bigger than the ’80s boom and that house prices on the coasts, according to the official numbers at least, have fallen only slightly so far. So it is hard to imagine that prices will rise 5 percent a year, or another 28 percent in all, over the next five years.

The second reason for skepticism is that buying has never been quite as beneficial as Realtors — and mortgage brokers, home builders and everybody else who makes money off home purchases — have made it out to be. Buyers have to pay property taxes on top of their mortgage, while renters have the taxes included in their monthly rent bill. Buyers also face thousands of dollars in closing costs (and, in Manhattan, co-op charges). Renters, meanwhile, can invest what they would have spent on closing costs and a down payment in the stock market, which hasn’t exactly delivered a bad return over the last 20 years.

And that famous mortgage-interest tax deduction? Yes, it reduces the borrowing costs that come with a mortgage, but it doesn’t eliminate them. Renters don’t face any such borrowing costs.

Almost two years ago, I interviewed a thoughtful 37-year-old man named Tchaka Owen, who happens to be a real estate agent. (Whatever the sins of the Realtors’ association, there are a lot of smart, helpful agents out there. Just remember that they have a financial interest in getting you to buy a house.)

Mr. Owen and his girlfriend, Polly Thompson, had recently moved from the Washington suburbs to the Miami area and decided to rent a two-bedroom apartment with spectacular bay views. “You can get so much more for your money, renting instead of buying,” he said at the time.

Sure enough, house prices soon began to fall in South Florida, and Mr. Owen and Ms. Thompson started to think about buying a place. A three-bedroom Mediterranean-style house that they liked was originally listed for $620,000 last year, but the price was later cut to $543,000. They bought it in June for $516,000. Since then, the market has fallen further, but Mr. Owen said he didn’t mind, because they plan to stay in the house at least a decade. “We love it,” he told me.

Clearly, there are benefits to owning a house beyond the financial, like the comfort of knowing you can stay as long as you want or can fix the roof without permission. But real estate has been sold as more than a good way to spend money. It has been sold as a can’t-miss investment. Back in 2005, near the peak of the market, the chief economist of the Realtors’ association, David Lereah, published a book called “Are You Missing the Real Estate Boom?” The can’t-miss argument was wrong then, and it may still be wrong today.

After hearing that radio spot, I called Ms. Combs and asked her whether she thought there was any chance that she and her fellow Realtors had gone a bit too far in promoting the boom. “I absolutely disagree,” she said, still cheerful. “We help people look at the marketplace.”

So I asked what advice she gave her own clients in Grand Rapids, Mich., where she is an agent. “We often tell people that they need to stay in a house five to six years for it to make sense,” she said.

That’s a nuance that didn’t make it into her “Newsmakers” interview. In Grand Rapids, where the median home costs $130,000, it is probably good advice. In a lot of other places, it may still be too optimistic.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/11/realestate/11leonhardt.html?em&ex=1176523200&en=c27e7d0948aecb80&ei=5087%0A
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Justiceforall on April 18, 2007, 12:55:30 PM
Well my concern is I will be leaving graduate school with over 200,000 grand in debt (I plan on going to Columbia, which cost over 60,000 a year) now assuming I take a corporate route (Which I really don't want to do...) I probaly can pay off the debt in two years...but it is going to take time out of my life which I can be contributing to something larger.  My question is since I plan on creating lots of wealth (not sure how but I'm going to) what advice would you guys have..(from what I hear stay away from credit cards, buy land, and don't buy anything that drops in value...such as D&G glasses or multiple cars).   In terms of law I want to be a trial lawyer. Criminal Defense and Personal Injury are my main intrest but I'm sure starting my own buisness will be my path to wealth not lawyering (although Johnny was able to average a million a year..I'm sure I can do the same..)   :) let me know mates...

Justice

P.S.  I think it is possible to make a lot of money in my lifetime I am still young (23 now will probaly be 28-30 by the time I'm done with law school and have passed the bar) and I'm single with no kids  ;)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Astro on April 18, 2007, 05:39:33 PM
BAFF


(re-BAFF, actually)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: cui bono? on April 19, 2007, 02:51:05 PM
BAFF


(re-BAFF, actually)


LOL, hiya troll, how u been?   :)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Astro on April 19, 2007, 04:41:06 PM
BAFF


(re-BAFF, actually)


LOL, hiya troll, how u been?   :)


Which troll do you think I am?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on April 24, 2007, 10:42:43 PM
https://www.annualcreditreport.com/cra/index.jsp

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/credit/freereports.shtm
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: cui bono? on April 25, 2007, 09:31:07 AM
BAFF


(re-BAFF, actually)


LOL, hiya troll, how u been?   :)


Which troll do you think I am?


"troll" as in that's your name...not that I thought you were a troll. 
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Astro on April 25, 2007, 01:10:24 PM
BAFF


(re-BAFF, actually)


LOL, hiya troll, how u been?   :)


Which troll do you think I am?


"troll" as in that's your name...not that I thought you were a troll. 


Nope!

Although I probably am a little trollish.   :D
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on May 08, 2007, 12:57:04 PM
Why rent? To get richer

A contrarian's view: Houses don't appreciate any faster than the level of inflation over the long term, so forget about buying a home and put your savings into stocks.
By SmartMoney

I have something un-American to confess: I rent an apartment despite having enough money to buy a house. I plan to keep renting for as long as I can. I'm not just holding out for better prices. Renting will make me richer.

I normally write about stocks for SmartMoney.com, but the boss asked me to explain to readers my reason for renting. Here goes: Businesses are great investments while houses are poor ones, so I'd rather rent the latter and own the former.
Stocks versus houses: Returns
Shares of businesses return 7% a year over long periods. I'm subtracting for inflation, gradual price increases for everything from a can of beer to an ear exam. (After-inflation, or "real," returns are the only ones that matter. The point of increasing wealth is to increase buying power, not numbers on an account statement.)

Shares have been remarkably consistent over the past two centuries in their 7% real returns. In Jeremy Siegel's book "Stocks for the Long Run," he finds that real returns averaged 7% over nearly seven decades ending in 1870, then 6.6% through 1925 and then 6.9% through 2004.

The average real return for houses over long periods might surprise you: It's virtually zero.

Shares return 7% a year after inflation because that's how fast companies tend to increase their profits. Houses have their own version of profits: rents. Tenant-occupied houses generate actual rents, while owner-occupied houses generate ones that are implied but no less real: the rents their owners don't have to pay each year.

House prices and rents have been closely linked throughout history, with both increasing at the rate of inflation, or about 3% a year since 1900. A house, after all, is an ordinary good. It can't think up ways to drive profits like a company's managers can. Absent artificial boosts to demand, house prices will increase over long periods at the rate of inflation, for a real return of zero.

Robert Shiller, a Yale economist and the author of "Irrational Exuberance," which predicted the stock-price collapse in 2000, has recently turned his eye to house prices. Between 1890 and 2004, he says, real house returns would've been zero if not for two brief periods: one immediately after World War II and another since about 2000. (More on them in a moment.) Even if we include these periods, houses returned just 0.4% a year, he says.

The average pundit, planner, lender or broker making the case for ownership doesn't look at returns since 1890. Sometimes they reduce the matter to maxims about "building equity" and "paying yourself" instead of "throwing money down the drain." If they do look at returns, they focus on recent ones. Those tell a different story.

Between World War II and 2000, house prices beat inflation by about 2 percentage points a year. (Stocks during that time beat inflation by their usual 7 percentage points a year.) Since 2000, houses have outpaced inflation by 6 percentage points a year. (Stocks have merely matched inflation.)
Stocks versus houses: Valuations
But though stock returns have come from increased earnings, house returns have come from ballooning valuations, not increased rents. The ratio of share prices to company earnings (the price-earnings ratio) has remained relatively steady. It's about 16 today, close to both its 1940 value of 17 and to its 130-year average of about 15. Not so the ratio of house prices to rents. In 1940, the median single-family house price was $2,938, according to the U.S. Census Bureau, while the median rent was $27 a month, including utilities. That means the ratio of prices to annual rents was 9. By 2000, the ratio had swelled to 17. In 2005, it hit 20. We can adjust for the size of dwellings, but it doesn't make much difference. The ratio of single-family house prices to three-bedroom apartments is 19. In SmartMoney's hometown of Manhattan, where more detailed data is available, the ratio of condo prices per square foot to apartment rents per square foot is 22.

* Video: Should you rent or buy?

Two main events have caused house valuations to inflate since World War II. First, the government subsidized housing by relaxing borrowing standards. Before the creation of the Federal Housing Authority (FHA) in 1934, homebuyers who borrowed typically put up 40% of the purchase price in cash for a five- to 15-year loan.

By insuring mortgages, the FHA permitted terms of up to 20 years and down payments of just 20%. It later expanded the repayment periods to 30 years and reduced down payments to 5%. Today, down payments for FHA loans are as low as 3%. Aggressive lenders offer loans with no down payments or even negative ones so that homebuyers can borrow the full purchase price plus closing costs. Some require little documentation of income, assets or ability to pay.

That means more Americans can win loans for homes, and they can win them for far more expensive homes than their incomes had previously allowed. Two-thirds of American households own homes today, up from 44% in 1940, even though the percentage of Americans living alone has tripled during that time. The ratio of house values to incomes has risen 260% in just under four decades.

A second event helped boost house demand in recent years. Share prices plunged in 2000. The Federal Reserve, fearing that the decline in stock wealth would cause consumers to stop spending, reduced the federal-funds rate, the core interest rate that determines the cost of everything from credit cards to mortgages, to 1% by summer 2003 from 6.5% at the start of 2001. Since most of the cost of financing a house over 30 years is interest, monthly house payments shrank and demand for houses soared. In some markets a string of big yearly increases in house prices led to panic buying.
Stocks versus houses: Conclusion
For house returns over the next 20 years to match those over the past 20, the government and private lenders would have to "up the ante" by relaxing borrowing standards further. Given the recent attention paid to swelling foreclosures, that seems unlikely. I suspect real returns will turn negative over most of the next two decades, but that house prices won't necessarily dip. Since 1963, they've done so in only two years versus 18 for stocks.

That's because homeowners mostly just stick it out rather than sell during soft markets. But if house prices remain flat, they produce negative real returns due to the creep of inflation. According to calculations made by The Economist in summer 2005, house prices would have to stay flat for 12 years with annual inflation at 2.5% for the ratio of prices to rents to fall from its 2005 perch to merely its 1975-to-2000 average.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on May 08, 2007, 12:57:22 PM
So to sum up why I rent: Shares right now cost 16 times earnings and over long periods return 7% a year after inflation. Houses right now cost 19 times their "earnings" and over long periods return zero after inflation. And they look likely to return less than that for a while.
Questions and objections
In what follows I've tried to anticipate and address questions and objections:

"You can't live in your stocks" or "Renters throw money down the drain."

Rent is the cost of owning shares with money you would otherwise spend on a house. Houses have ownership costs, too: taxes, insurance and maintenance. Rent costs about 5% of house prices each year if we apply the price-rent ratio of 19. House incidentals often cost around 2%.

If you have $300,000 and a choice between spending it on a house or shares, you'll pay $6,000 a year in incidentals if you buy the house or about $15,000 a year ($1,250 a month) in rent if you buy the shares. But the shares will return $21,000 a year after inflation while the house will return zero. (My numbers work out even better than these. I pay a smidgen less than $1,250 a month for rent, while house prices in my neighborhood are far higher than $300,000.)

Note that houses and shares have transaction costs, too. Homebuyers pay around 1% in closing costs when they buy and 6% in broker commissions when they sell. Share buyers pay $10 trading commissions, which are negligible for buy-and-hold investors.

"Homebuyers get tax breaks."

So do share buyers, but both are a bad deal. The interest on loans for houses (mortgages) and shares (margin balances) is tax-deductible. But the rates are almost always too high. A big house loan presently costs 6.1% interest, while a big stock loan costs about 9%. For the returns, we can forget about inflation because it helps debtors while hurting investors, making it a wash for those who borrow to invest. Still, nominal returns of 3% for houses and 10% for stocks aren't high enough to justify those rates. The tax breaks aren't really breaks at all. Moreover, a majority of homeowners don't claim them. Their incomes are low enough to make the standard deduction a better deal.

"What about the pride of homeownership?"

It's not for me. I define ownership as no longer having to pay for something and being able to do as I please with it. I own my coffee maker. Homeowners must pay taxes each year even when their mortgage payments are done. In certain markets they can't even make changes to the houses they've paid for without seeking the approval of others. Personally, I feel the pride of ownership for shares of businesses, and I'm proud to occupy a nice place while leaving the burden and poor returns and maintenance to someone else.

"You seem to knock government housing subsidies, but they've helped many Americans afford homes."

My inner socialist agrees. My other inner socialist worries that the government has effectively raised prices to the point where the middle class can't afford houses or buries itself in debt to own them. My inner capitalist is too busy watching shares to care about house prices. My inner conspiracy theorist notes that while politicians tout the social benefits of homeownership, none mentions its tax benefits to the government. I pay no taxes on the overall value of my stock portfolio, just on my cashed-in gains and collected dividends. But Americans pay taxes on the full $11 trillion worth of housing they own plus the $10 trillion worth of it they're still paying off.

* Video: Should you rent or buy?

"Houses are bigger than apartments."

True, and both can be rented. A third of renters live in single-family houses. I prefer an apartment for now. I like not having to fill it with stuff. I like using a fifth of the energy of the average American. I like being 20 minutes from work and not having owned a car in 10 years. I like not stressing over whether to get the marble countertops or the imported tiles or the 52-inch flat screen. I'm not especially frugal; I spend a teacher's salary each year on restaurants and travel. But I guess I'm too busy or lazy right now to bother with a big house and its innards.

"Are you saying I should sell my big house and rent an apartment instead?"

No, unless you have more space than you need and moving wouldn't be disruptive to your family, and you want to cash in on recent housing gains, make more money over the next couple of decades, use less energy while simplifying your life, and you don't mind seeming odd to friends. In which case, yes. But really, I'm not trying to win anyone over. Strong demand for houses keeps my rent cheap.

"Renting is for poor people."

True. But it's for rich people, too. The average renter makes about $34,000 a year, but while the percentage of renters declines after incomes exceed $20,000 and rents exceed $600 a month, it jumps again once incomes top $150,000 and rents top $1,200 a month. In other words, poor people rent modest apartments for lack of choice. Middle-income people buy houses. High-income people, presumably with a dose of financial savvy, often rent nice apartments instead of buying.

"You say houses return zero. But I've made a fortune on my house in recent years."

I'm referring to inflation-adjusted returns over long periods, absent external boosts to demand. You're referring to gross returns over a short time period that combined lax borrowing standards and ultra-low interest rates. Over the next 20 years I believe houses will return zero or slightly less after inflation, and that stocks will return 7%.

"So you're never going to buy a house? What about raising a family?"

I might buy one eventually, but the longer I can put it off the more I'll get out of the shares I'll have to sell to afford it. I'm 34 now with a fiancée and a fish. I'm going to try to rent for at least 10 more years. If I have kids I'll probably move into a big apartment or a house once they reach running-around age. I'll rent, most likely.

This article was reported and written by Jack Hough for SmartMoney.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Banking/HomebuyingGuide/WhyRentToGetRicher.aspx?page=1
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Astro on May 08, 2007, 01:14:55 PM
Great article, Alci.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on May 08, 2007, 02:53:28 PM
Great article until you take a closer look.  
THE AUTHOR:
-House prices and rents have been closely linked throughout history, with both increasing at the rate of inflation, or about 3% a year since 1900. A house, after all, is an ordinary good. It can't think up ways to drive profits like a company's managers can. Absent artificial boosts to demand, house prices will increase over long periods at the rate of inflation, for a real return of zero-

The author then goes on to list the two reasons for recent artificial boosts

1)Government subsidized housing that relaxed borrowing standards where downpayments are as low as 3%
and
2)A reduction in the Fed Funds rate and thus an overall reduction in interest rates.

While classifying these as "artificial boosts" maybe somewhat accurate, the author does not address the fact that these factors are likely here to stay i.e that there has been a fundamental change in the mortgage market.  The days of a 40% downpayment for a home are over. Imagine what the difference in demand (and thus mkt value returns)would have been if downpayment were always 3% or lower rather than 40% up until the mid 1900's.  We can no longer classify these factors as demand-driven artificial factors when in fact they now make up part of the structure of the mortgage market.

Now for the author's example:
-If you have $300,000 and a choice between spending it on a house or shares, you'll pay $6,000 a year in incidentals if you buy the house or about $15,000 a year ($1,250 a month) in rent if you buy the shares. But the shares will return $21,000 a year after inflation while the house will return zero. (My numbers work out even better than these. I pay a smidgen less than $1,250 a month for rent, while house prices in my neighborhood are far higher than $300,000.)
-

Accurate, yet misleading.  The author is leaving out the biggest driver of the returns on real property, LEVERAGE!

Here is a more representative example:
If you want to purchase a $300,000 home you are not going to pay cash, you're going to pay a 3% downpayment of $9,000. You'll pay $6,000 a year in incidentals (per the author's example) plus $2,000 in mortage (24,000 per an) for a total of $30,000 a year.  Subtract from this what you WOULD be paying in rent, ($1,250 per month per author) $15,000 per year, and that leaves a $15,000 higher payment for mortgage vs rent.  But wait, if we assume a 3% appreciation (see author above) then the house will return $9,000.  Remember your initial investment was only $9,000, so rather than a 3% return your actual return is 100% on your invested funds.    

Also, we now only have a net annual outlay of 4,000 ($15,000 mortgage/rent differential minus $9,000 return on investment). But wait again, the author assumed we had $300,000 in cash, but we only paid out $9,000 for downpayment, we still have $291,000 that we can invest.  We get to own equities AND own a home and provided we stay away from homebuilding stocks we end up with a much more diversified portfolio with comparable returns and a lot less overall risk.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on May 08, 2007, 11:40:13 PM
Well, your analysis ignores the (not inconsiderable) interest on the mortgage.  And the fact that you can't capitalize on the 100% "return" on your invested funds without selling the house.  And the "return" isn't even real, because it's pretty much just inflation.  And I'm not sure if the incidentals include property tax and other non-routine expenditures.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on May 09, 2007, 08:42:07 AM
Well, your analysis ignores the (not inconsiderable) interest on the mortgage.  And the fact that you can't capitalize on the 100% "return" on your invested funds without selling the house.  And the "return" isn't even real, because it's pretty much just inflation.  And I'm not sure if the incidentals include property tax and other non-routine expenditures.

-Actually my analysis does not ignore the interest on the mortgage, it's factored into the $2,000 per month mortgage payment. The $2,000 per month mortgage payment includes principal, interest, PMI, AND property tax.  This is what I pay on a $300,000 mortgage which is coincidentally the same number the author used in his example.

-Also, you can capitalize on the 100% return by refinancing without selling the house, which incidentally is not something that you can do with equities.  You have to outright sell your shares to get capital gains.

-The "return" is absolutely real.  The total return is inflation PLUS the valuation premium that the author categories as "artificial boosts to demand". The valuation premium portion of it is real.  Your returns revert to "inflation only" if these boosts to demand are not present.  The author's argument breaks down because he did not make a case for why or even if he thinks these boosts to demand are going away. This was probably for good reason because I can't see how a case can be made that in the near future homebuyers will be required to make a 40% downpayment on a home rather than the 3% of today.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on May 09, 2007, 09:00:50 AM
Can't an argument be made that the downpayment reduction resulted in a one-time large increase in the number of people able to afford houses?  In other words, there was an anomolous demand increase that inflated returns.  Unless similar market anomalies occur (not likely, given the subprime backlash), then such returns are not likely to occur in the near future.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 09, 2007, 09:50:43 AM
well said BP.. I'm about to rent again in Boston and I absolutely hate that I'm about to jump into that again..bottom line $1350 a month that will only cover a roof over my head with no return.. there is absolutely nothing that I will gain from renting and it's more than my mortgage payments currently on a home that I had built and customized to my liking (that is for a first home lol more to come after this EdD lol)

I am going to  buy someting out near Cambridge once I figure the area out and have spent some time out there.. it could be a great investment in the long run in terms of renting to professionals once I graduate

I have rented out my home here in Houston and I have equity that I can pull from if I need to (Lord willing I won't have to).. via a cash out refinance or a home equity line of credit- up to 20% of the value of my crib... I will also make a small profit from the rent as my mortgage payments are relatively low... and most importantly..

let's not forget the tax breaks afforded to homeowners...

some of you non public interest $160k plus salary making attorneys are going to need all the breaks you can get LOL

& as far as the whole subprime situation is concerned... in my opinion there is absolutely no reason why people should have their credit in the 550-600 midscore range...but that's my own personal bias... I mismanged a bit in college.. in fact most people are late on a phone...gas or electric bill here and there in college but once you're grown pay that ish off and get it together LOL....

subprime lending is still in effect but the guidelines have changed dramatically.. pookie and mookie can't get that 200k loan with a 580 midscore.. they'll have to settle for 150k with a 10-20% downpayment..
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: _BP_ on May 09, 2007, 10:14:25 AM
Can't an argument be made that the downpayment reduction resulted in a one-time large increase in the number of people able to afford houses?  In other words, there was an anomolous demand increase that inflated returns.  Unless similar market anomalies occur (not likely, given the subprime backlash), then such returns are not likely to occur in the near future.

Yeah, I think that could be a solid argument. I agree too that the super-inflated returns we saw in the first half of the decade are unlikely to occur in the foreseeable future.  If we assume that the effects of low downpayments are no longer instrumental on the demand side because everyone that could afford has already jumped into the market then we're screwed. I am not sure this is the case though.  

The subprime backlash is definitely something to keep an eye on like you pointed out.  It's going to be a hard landing, but we have to factor in the influence and  positioning of Freddie and Fannie.  Together they control half the mortgage market. Freddie has already pledged $20 Billion to buy back a good chunk of those subprime mortgages that went out in the last 5 years and Fannie is cooking something up as we speak.   Many of these folks will be restructured into fixed term loans prior to defaulting.  No doubt the mortgage market is going to be stormy going forward but my focus was that the author of the article could have done a better job framing the renting vs owning debate.  I work in the mortgage market so this stuff really interests me.
Thanks
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on May 09, 2007, 11:22:00 AM
Cool.  Yeah the issues are never framed as well as they could be.  I think there are valid points on both sides though.  Seems like in the end, it might just come down to personal preference, depending on your time horizon.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Astro on May 09, 2007, 11:34:47 AM
Cool.  Yeah the issues are never framed as well as they could be.  I think there are valid points on both sides though.  Seems like in the end, it might just come down to personal preference, depending on your time horizon.


That was pretty much my own assumption.   :D

Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: pikey on May 09, 2007, 11:40:15 AM
Cool.  Yeah the issues are never framed as well as they could be.  I think there are valid points on both sides though.  Seems like in the end, it might just come down to personal preference, depending on your time horizon.


That was pretty much my own assumption.   :D



I'd definitely prefer to buy, but that's just me.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Astro on May 09, 2007, 11:42:33 AM
Cool.  Yeah the issues are never framed as well as they could be.  I think there are valid points on both sides though.  Seems like in the end, it might just come down to personal preference, depending on your time horizon.


That was pretty much my own assumption.   :D



I'd definitely prefer to buy, but that's just me.


Me too.  I'd take satisfaction in that type of ownership.  Also, I like being able to call the shots on what I do with a property.  That might sometimes be restricted for home owners, but it's ALWAYS restricted for renters.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on May 09, 2007, 11:48:08 AM
I'll probably rent until I'm ready to have kids.  I'd rather not deal with mowing lawns, leaky roofs, broken pipes, and such.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: pikey on May 09, 2007, 11:48:59 AM
I'll probably rent until I'm ready to have kids.  I'd rather not deal with mowing lawns, leaky roofs, broken pipes, and such.

That's why you pay people for that  :P
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on May 09, 2007, 11:51:42 AM
Yeah, but you still have to call them and arrange to let them in and pay them, etc.  I'd rather just call the landlord and let him deal with it.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Astro on May 09, 2007, 11:54:48 AM
I'll probably rent until I'm ready to have kids.  I'd rather not deal with mowing lawns, leaky roofs, broken pipes, and such.


Basically the same for me.  Ownership definitely has its drawbacks.  Besides, I don't need the space (something I love and one of the biggest perks) until I have kids, anyway.



Unless I'm really filthy rich for some reason and can hire others to look after the upkeep for me. 
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 09, 2007, 12:17:08 PM
pretty much.. $20 every two weeks to get my lawn mowed in 90 degree weather is well spent...besides having a yrd is perfect for dogs if you have or want them...

if you buy a new home the roof is guaranteed for 10 yrs I believe.. and broken pipes etc you're speaking extreme cases there...I'd rather control who comes in my home than have the maintenance man coming in unannounced in an apt setting....aside from that if you have a neighbor that's nasty as hell his/her pest problems will eventually affect you lol

of course there are drawbacks.. HOA fees taxes etc.. but I still feel that the good outweighs the bad based on experience with both...

I'll probably rent until I'm ready to have kids.  I'd rather not deal with mowing lawns, leaky roofs, broken pipes, and such.

That's why you pay people for that  :P
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 09, 2007, 12:32:20 PM
i'm not trying to convince anyone either way :D :D lol..i'm just speaking about the topic since i have experience from both sides...

these past couple of months have been nothing less than a headache for me when it came down to looking for an apt back east as i have been spoiled with ownership these past few yrs....

Like it says in the article, you can always rent a house. My brother has 2 dogs, and has rented places with yards for the past 4 years. I think if you know you want to be in a certain neighborhood for a long time and the market is right, then buying makes sense, but it's obviously not for everyone.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on May 09, 2007, 03:22:07 PM
these past couple of months have been nothing less than a headache for me when it came down to looking for an apt back east as i have been spoiled with ownership these past few yrs....

Lol which would you rather do: find a new apt or find a new house?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 09, 2007, 03:40:25 PM
find a new house (or condo) honestly.. I'll be there for a few yrs and as i said earlier..after spending a little time up there (few months maybe the first yr of the program) I'll throw my hat back into the homebuying process...I just do not feel comfortable with paying $1350 or more a month for something that I do not own... not at this point in my life.. I'm closer to 30 than 20


these past couple of months have been nothing less than a headache for me when it came down to looking for an apt back east as i have been spoiled with ownership these past few yrs....

Lol which would you rather do: find a new apt or find a new house?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on May 09, 2007, 03:57:56 PM
Lol I meant the process.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 09, 2007, 04:10:04 PM
I know... buying a house under these circumstances couldn't possibly be more stressful than finding an apt has been... but the reality is that I've never been to Boston so I'm not going to buy anything sight unseen...


Lol I meant the process.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on May 09, 2007, 08:32:01 PM
I know... buying a house under these circumstances couldn't possibly be more stressful than finding an apt has been

Really??  Interesting.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on May 10, 2007, 11:18:44 AM
get ready for the vent/rant lol

think about it this way.. if you own a home there are certain amenities that you're going to look for if you have to rent again...

area/safety that's a factor... I've never been to Boston so that's a headache too having to rely on other's in that regard-- when I have control issues when it comes to making decisions that are solely going to affect me and my wellbeing...

I also had an issue with a person or company having access to my personal information sight unseen (SSN # bday etc) whereas with the whole home loan thing I know exactly who's handling my business...


HAH wasn't an option for me for two reasons

1- I have 2 dogs
2- I really don't want to have a dorm feel.. I don't think I can stomach that at this juncture lol

Cambridge is RIDICULOUSLY expensive.. even moreso than DC was so @ one point I was looking at $1850  :o >:( :-\ :'( (for what I wanted).. fortunately I've found another option (greek organizations do have their benefits lol) but the hike is a few miles away.. and there's no parking at the Grad School of Ed so ugh :(...  needless to say this is going to be an interesting experience..

I know... buying a house under these circumstances couldn't possibly be more stressful than finding an apt has been

Really??  Interesting.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on May 10, 2007, 11:27:18 AM
Yeah that sucks.  Still sounds better than buying a house though ;)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Astro on May 11, 2007, 02:15:54 AM
Basically, if I could purchase a home for a mortgage anywhere near what I would normally be paying for rent, I'd buy as well. 
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on May 11, 2007, 06:14:12 AM
why throw money/equity away?

While that sounds nice in the abstract, I think the article shows how one can (and right now, probably does) throw away money by buying a house/how one actually builds more "equity" by renting and investing what you saved.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 21, 2007, 07:54:10 AM
How many people here have online savings accounts?  With whom and why?

if you don't have an online savings account, why not?

(I wish I could organize this as a poll)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: pikey on May 21, 2007, 07:59:09 AM
How many people here have online savings accounts?  With whom and why?

if you don't have an online savings account, why not?

(I wish I could organize this as a poll)

I don't have one because I don't live in the US.  I'm definitely gonna open one either next week or in August.  I might just go with HSBC because they are a well known intl bank yet still have a great rate, but I'll definitely research it more when the time comes.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on May 21, 2007, 08:02:38 AM
How many people here have online savings accounts?  With whom and why?

if you don't have an online savings account, why not?

(I wish I could organize this as a poll)

hsbc online account
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on May 21, 2007, 08:03:01 AM
How many people here have online savings accounts?  With whom and why?

if you don't have an online savings account, why not?

(I wish I could organize this as a poll)

I don't have one because I don't live in the US.  I'm definitely gonna open one either next week or in August.  I might just go with HSBC because they are a well known intl bank yet still have a great rate, but I'll definitely research it more when the time comes.

If you're going to be using the account primarily in the U.S., there are definitely better deals.  FNBO Direct is the best one right now: 6% until the end of September.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on May 21, 2007, 08:04:01 AM
How many people here have online savings accounts?  With whom and why?

if you don't have an online savings account, why not?

(I wish I could organize this as a poll)

Lol do I have to answer this?  I'm a bank hopper, like you ;).
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 21, 2007, 08:04:24 AM
HSBC gets on my nerves in terms of their timing, but you certainly do get the "bang" of having all the ATMs worldwide.  i'm a bit of a rate-chaser but maybe you are right that hunkering down and sticking to one gives you more peace of mind.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on May 21, 2007, 08:05:31 AM
Or just open HSBC and a better account, then transfer money into HSBC when you're going to be abroad.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on May 21, 2007, 08:05:41 AM
HSBC gets on my nerves in terms of their timing, but you certainly do get the "bang" of having all the ATMs worldwide.  i'm a bit of a rate-chaser but maybe you are right that hunkering down and sticking to one gives you more peace of mind.

I've never used the atm card that comes with the account
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: pikey on May 21, 2007, 08:06:51 AM
How many people here have online savings accounts?  With whom and why?

if you don't have an online savings account, why not?

(I wish I could organize this as a poll)

I don't have one because I don't live in the US.  I'm definitely gonna open one either next week or in August.  I might just go with HSBC because they are a well known intl bank yet still have a great rate, but I'll definitely research it more when the time comes.

If you're going to be using the account primarily in the U.S., there are definitely better deals.  FNBO Direct is the best one right now: 6% until the end of September.

I think at the end of the summer I'm gonna liquidate my mutual fund and put it all it an online savings acccount.  Don't wanna be too risky with my law school money!  I'm only gonna use it in the US, so I'll just look for the best deal going.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 21, 2007, 08:07:34 AM
Or just open HSBC and a better account, then transfer money into HSBC when you're going to be abroad.

then you start thinking about all of the days of missed interest and think about opening another account to maximize transfers...and then there are the bonuses for opening a new account AND THE CYCLE NEVER STOPS!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 21, 2007, 08:11:56 AM
HSBC gets on my nerves in terms of their timing, but you certainly do get the "bang" of having all the ATMs worldwide.  i'm a bit of a rate-chaser but maybe you are right that hunkering down and sticking to one gives you more peace of mind.

I've never used the atm card that comes with the account

What do you do with it?  transfer funds when you need it into a local bank?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on May 21, 2007, 08:13:09 AM
HSBC gets on my nerves in terms of their timing, but you certainly do get the "bang" of having all the ATMs worldwide.  i'm a bit of a rate-chaser but maybe you are right that hunkering down and sticking to one gives you more peace of mind.

I've never used the atm card that comes with the account

What do you do with it?  transfer funds when you need it into a local bank?

I don't spend it--I'm saving it.  I have a checking account and a savings account--i only use the money in of BofA checking account.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on May 21, 2007, 08:14:18 AM
Or just open HSBC and a better account, then transfer money into HSBC when you're going to be abroad.

then you start thinking about all of the days of missed interest and think about opening another account to maximize transfers...and then there are the bonuses for opening a new account AND THE CYCLE NEVER STOPS!

That's why you put your transition money in Everbank or GMAC, then write a check and deposit it in the HSBC atm.  No lost interest! 

lol it's so addictive 8).
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 21, 2007, 08:15:05 AM
cool.  additional question open to all:
what are people saving for?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on May 21, 2007, 08:16:17 AM
HSBC gets on my nerves in terms of their timing, but you certainly do get the "bang" of having all the ATMs worldwide.  i'm a bit of a rate-chaser but maybe you are right that hunkering down and sticking to one gives you more peace of mind.

I've never used the atm card that comes with the account

What do you do with it?  transfer funds when you need it into a local bank?

I don't spend it--I'm saving it.  I have a checking account and a savings account--i only use the money in of BofA checking account.

Which I hope is interest-bearing...
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 21, 2007, 08:17:10 AM
Or just open HSBC and a better account, then transfer money into HSBC when you're going to be abroad.

then you start thinking about all of the days of missed interest and think about opening another account to maximize transfers...and then there are the bonuses for opening a new account AND THE CYCLE NEVER STOPS!

That's why you put your transition money in Everbank or GMAC, then write a check and deposit it in the HSBC atm.  No lost interest! 

lol it's so addictive 8).

I guess i have to track down a fax machine.   >:(
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: pikey on May 21, 2007, 08:19:30 AM
cool.  additional question open to all:
what are people saving for?

Law school!  Once I've exhausted that money I don't expect to have any significant savings (other than summer money which will be used the next school year) until after I graduate.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on May 21, 2007, 08:20:22 AM
I guess i have to track down a fax machine.   >:(

Let me know if it's worth it.  I will probably be envious of your ACH pulls this summer.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on May 21, 2007, 08:23:06 AM
HSBC gets on my nerves in terms of their timing, but you certainly do get the "bang" of having all the ATMs worldwide.  i'm a bit of a rate-chaser but maybe you are right that hunkering down and sticking to one gives you more peace of mind.

I've never used the atm card that comes with the account

What do you do with it?  transfer funds when you need it into a local bank?

I don't spend it--I'm saving it.  I have a checking account and a savings account--i only use the money in of BofA checking account.

Which I hope is interest-bearing...

i don't think it is...the reason i have that account is bc when it was fleet, that was the only bank here in nyc and also in providence.  so i just kept the account after graduation.    regardless, for most checking accounts you need to maintain a high amount of money, and i never do that bc that is the money i spend to shop and pay bills and stuff.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on May 21, 2007, 08:24:17 AM
cool.  additional question open to all:
what are people saving for?

Law school!  Once I've exhausted that money I don't expect to have any significant savings (other than summer money which will be used the next school year) until after I graduate.

I, too, am saving for ls.  Not to pay for it--but mainly to buy my laptop and furniture and stuff.  I'll still have quit a bit of money left over for my first year, so i guess that will be emergency money--or when i'm stressed and just need to shop money. :)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 21, 2007, 08:26:16 AM
cool.  additional question open to all:
what are people saving for?

Law school!  Once I've exhausted that money I don't expect to have any significant savings (other than summer money which will be used the next school year) until after I graduate.

 ??? you have a Darrow.  ok what is next on your list post law school?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: pikey on May 21, 2007, 08:30:19 AM
cool.  additional question open to all:
what are people saving for?

Law school!  Once I've exhausted that money I don't expect to have any significant savings (other than summer money which will be used the next school year) until after I graduate.

 ??? you have a Darrow.  ok what is next on your list post law school?

Living expenses don't pay themselves, and intl status means that loans are mostly out of the question.  I should have enough for the first two years if I can find a paying job for next summer and from what I hear my 2L summer job will hopefully cover 3L.

Post ls, a house would prolly be my first priority, apart from retirement savings and emergency savings.  What other major purchases do people save for?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on May 21, 2007, 08:32:36 AM
HSBC gets on my nerves in terms of their timing, but you certainly do get the "bang" of having all the ATMs worldwide.  i'm a bit of a rate-chaser but maybe you are right that hunkering down and sticking to one gives you more peace of mind.

I've never used the atm card that comes with the account

What do you do with it?  transfer funds when you need it into a local bank?

I don't spend it--I'm saving it.  I have a checking account and a savings account--i only use the money in of BofA checking account.

Which I hope is interest-bearing...

i don't think it is...the reason i have that account is bc when it was fleet, that was the only bank here in nyc and also in providence.  so i just kept the account after graduation.    regardless, for most checking accounts you need to maintain a high amount of money, and i never do that bc that is the money i spend to shop and pay bills and stuff.

Yeah I have BOA too.  But I recently opened a checking account at Everbank...no minimum balance and you earn 6.01% for the first 3 mos (then 3.something% afterward...I might switch to something else then).  They also rebate $6/month in foreign ATM fees if you need to withdraw.  Alternatively, you could just transfer into BOA when you think you'll need the money.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 21, 2007, 08:33:40 AM
you will save 25k easy in one summer which should be enough for 2 years living expenses.  which means the other summer or two is just play money...I mean the downpayment on your first home.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on May 21, 2007, 08:35:48 AM
HSBC gets on my nerves in terms of their timing, but you certainly do get the "bang" of having all the ATMs worldwide.  i'm a bit of a rate-chaser but maybe you are right that hunkering down and sticking to one gives you more peace of mind.

I've never used the atm card that comes with the account

What do you do with it?  transfer funds when you need it into a local bank?

I don't spend it--I'm saving it.  I have a checking account and a savings account--i only use the money in of BofA checking account.

Which I hope is interest-bearing...

i don't think it is...the reason i have that account is bc when it was fleet, that was the only bank here in nyc and also in providence.  so i just kept the account after graduation.    regardless, for most checking accounts you need to maintain a high amount of money, and i never do that bc that is the money i spend to shop and pay bills and stuff.

Yeah I have BOA too.  But I recently opened a checking account at Everbank...no minimum balance and you earn 6.01% for the first 3 mos (then 3.something% afterward...I might switch to something else then).  They also rebate $6/month in foreign ATM fees if you need to withdraw. Alternatively, you could just transfer into BOA when you think you'll need the money.

see that wouldn't work---my BoA debit card is my best friend  :D
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on May 21, 2007, 08:36:07 AM
I don't think you necessarily have to have a reason to save.  I just like to save.  And you never know what might strike your fancy one day.  I got behind a black Mercedes SL55 AMG on my drive down the other day.   Yeah, I could definitely use some of my savings on that!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on May 21, 2007, 08:37:43 AM
see that wouldn't work---my BoA debit card is my best friend  :D

Oh goodness, you're a debit-carder??  You're throwing your money away!  What does that debit card give you?  Nothing.  You should get a credit card that gives cash back, then pay it off every month.  That both helps your credit history AND actually gets you something in exchange for using the card.  Win-win.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: pikey on May 21, 2007, 08:39:44 AM
you will save 25k easy in one summer which should be enough for 2 years living expenses.  which means the other summer or two is just play money...I the downpayment on your first home.

Good to know!  I'd definitely splurge on travel too.

I don't think you necessarily have to have a reason to save.  I just like to save.  And you never know what might strike your fancy one day.  I got behind a black Mercedes SL55 AMG on my drive down the other day.   Yeah, I could definitely use some of my savings on that!

Yeah, I'm a saver too.  I was saving a big chunk of each salary even before I decided to go to law school.

see that wouldn't work---my BoA debit card is my best friend  :D

Oh goodness, you're a debit-carder??  You're throwing your money away!  What does that debit card give you?  Nothing.  You should get a credit card that gives cash back, then pay it off every month.  That both helps your credit history AND actually gets you something in exchange for using the card.  Win-win.

I must admit I'm a debit carder too, though I always use my American Airlines cc when I travel.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on May 21, 2007, 08:41:27 AM
see that wouldn't work---my BoA debit card is my best friend  :D

Oh goodness, you're a debit-carder??  You're throwing your money away!  What does that debit card give you?  Nothing.  You should get a credit card that gives cash back, then pay it off every month.  That both helps your credit history AND actually gets you something in exchange for using the card.  Win-win.

I do use my credit card occasionally--only for big things tho (books, airline tickets, online shopping). Been using it since senior year hs, I have very good credit (got a credit report for ls loans).  I've just never gotten into the habit of using my credit card when Ihave the money readily availible.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on May 21, 2007, 08:46:11 AM
smh.  Cash back!  I need to submit some points to get some money now, as a matter of fact.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 21, 2007, 08:47:02 AM
hmm MCB you could do citibank--free checking, but it is linked to an esavings account at 5% which isn't as good as hsbc, but you have instant access to that money.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: cui bono? on May 21, 2007, 08:47:39 AM
I use my cc mainly for casebooks and other ls stuff.  Pretty good credit-  keeping in mind they check that type of stuff when u do the bar app.  
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: pikey on May 21, 2007, 08:48:10 AM
This is kinda related to money.  Lenovo is currently having a 25% off sale for memorial day.  Should I go ahead and buy now or wait for the july 4 sale?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: cui bono? on May 21, 2007, 08:49:31 AM
This is kinda related to money.  Lenovo is currently having a 25% off sale for memorial day.  Should I go ahead and buy now or wait for the july 4 sale?


4th may be a better sale
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on May 21, 2007, 08:50:49 AM
hmm MCB you could do citibank--free checking, but it is linked to an esavings account at 5% which isn't as good as hsbc, but you have instant access to that money.

hmmm that's ok, i like the set up i have, it works well for me.  honestly, i don't even keep track of my hsbc, my mom does.  shes the one who puts the money in the bank for me.

This is kinda related to money.  Lenovo is currently having a 25% off sale for memorial day.  Should I go ahead and buy now or wait for the july 4 sale?

I'm waiting...still haven't figured out what kind of comp i'm getting (ie mac or pc) and my moms computer geek friends are gonna go over the specs for me.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on May 21, 2007, 08:52:32 AM
This is kinda related to money.  Lenovo is currently having a 25% off sale for memorial day.  Should I go ahead and buy now or wait for the july 4 sale?

Yeah I'd probably wait.  Although I doubt it will get much better than 25% off.  Does Mich not offer discounts?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: pikey on May 21, 2007, 08:54:39 AM
hmm MCB you could do citibank--free checking, but it is linked to an esavings account at 5% which isn't as good as hsbc, but you have instant access to that money.

hmmm that's ok, i like the set up i have, it works well for me.  honestly, i don't even keep track of my hsbc, my mom does.  shes the one who puts the money in the bank for me.

This is kinda related to money.  Lenovo is currently having a 25% off sale for memorial day.  Should I go ahead and buy now or wait for the july 4 sale?

I'm waiting...still haven't figured out what kind of comp i'm getting (ie mac or pc) and my moms computer geek friends are gonna go over the specs for me.

I got Gcoop to help me so I know exactly which computer I'm getting (X60) and which specs. 

This is kinda related to money.  Lenovo is currently having a 25% off sale for memorial day.  Should I go ahead and buy now or wait for the july 4 sale?

Yeah I'd probably wait.  Although I doubt it will get much better than 25% off.  Does Mich not offer discounts?

They have a computer store that offers a specificly configured thinkpad.  I'm not sure if they have a general academic discount with lenovo.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on May 21, 2007, 08:56:08 AM
I got Gcoop to help me so I know exactly which computer I'm getting (X60) and which specs. 

Excellent choice.  You won't regret it.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on May 21, 2007, 08:57:39 AM
I got Gcoop to help me so I know exactly which computer I'm getting (X60) and which specs. 

Excellent choice.  You won't regret it.

yea the x60 is one of my choices...i'd prefer a mac, but cls isn't as liberal with beta boot camp as other schools.  too bad leopard is coming out after school starts  :-\
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: pikey on May 21, 2007, 09:00:12 AM
I got Gcoop to help me so I know exactly which computer I'm getting (X60) and which specs. 

Excellent choice.  You won't regret it.

It's soooooo expensive though!  The configuration that I want (including 3 yr accident protection warranty, etc) is still approx $2,000 with the current sale on.  That also includes my docking station but doesn't include any software (Mich sells it for ridiculously cheap) or external monitor/keyboard/mouse.

And I have to get a printer too.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on May 21, 2007, 09:04:50 AM
I got Gcoop to help me so I know exactly which computer I'm getting (X60) and which specs. 

Excellent choice.  You won't regret it.

It's soooooo expensive though!  The configuration that I want (including 3 yr accident protection warranty, etc) is still approx $2,000 with the current sale on.  That also includes my docking station but doesn't include any software (Mich sells it for ridiculously cheap) or external monitor/keyboard/mouse.

And I have to get a printer too.

Personally, I'd just go with the standard warranty and buy a good laptop sleeve (I use Booq's Vyper XS: http://booqbags.com/s.nl/it.A/id.65/.f).  It's a very sturdy computer (titanium!).  Wait for Dell to have a good sale on their monitors.  I got an excellent 19" for cheap.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: pikey on May 21, 2007, 09:10:52 AM
I got Gcoop to help me so I know exactly which computer I'm getting (X60) and which specs. 

Excellent choice.  You won't regret it.

It's soooooo expensive though!  The configuration that I want (including 3 yr accident protection warranty, etc) is still approx $2,000 with the current sale on.  That also includes my docking station but doesn't include any software (Mich sells it for ridiculously cheap) or external monitor/keyboard/mouse.

And I have to get a printer too.

Personally, I'd just go with the standard warranty and buy a good laptop sleeve (I use Booq's Vyper XS: http://booqbags.com/s.nl/it.A/id.65/.f).  It's a very sturdy computer (titanium!).  Wait for Dell to have a good sale on their monitors.  I got an excellent 19" for cheap.

So you don't think the accident protection is worth the extra money?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 21, 2007, 09:14:33 AM
laptops are not exactly wealth cahow, but I guess we can be tolerant  ;D

financial question for the gurus, at what point would you move your money from esavings and the like to something with risk--stock/mutual funds etc?  
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on May 21, 2007, 09:16:48 AM
So you don't think the accident protection is worth the extra money?

How much is it?  And does it cover the display?  I just remember doing the cost-benefit analysis at the time and deciding that it wasn't worth it.  I haven't had a single problem out of mine after 2 years of daily use (e.g., throwing it in my bag, docking and undocking every day, etc.).
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on May 21, 2007, 09:17:43 AM
laptops are not exactly wealth cahow, but I guess we can be tolerant  ;D

financial question for the gurus, at what point would you move your money from esavings and the like to something with risk--stock/mutual funds etc? 

When you can afford to.  I'm going to do it as soon as I graduate.

ETA: do it now if you have disposable income.  But I ain't ballin like dat ;)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 21, 2007, 09:19:01 AM
you aren't a guru.  sit yo ass down.  ;D
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on May 21, 2007, 09:20:04 AM
you aren't a guru.  sit yo ass down.  ;D

Ha!  I can calculate a beta with the best of them 8).
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 21, 2007, 09:21:53 AM
you aren't a guru.  sit yo ass down.  ;D

Ha!  I can calculate a beta with the best of them 8).

you would still be earning .25%.  fall back son!  :D
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: pikey on May 21, 2007, 09:22:43 AM
laptops are not exactly wealth cahow, but I guess we can be tolerant  ;D

financial question for the gurus, at what point would you move your money from esavings and the like to something with risk--stock/mutual funds etc?  

When you can afford to lose it in the short term.  Don't move over anything that you need for living expenses or a loan payment!  I actually agree with Alci in that I'll start investing when I graduate.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on May 21, 2007, 09:27:00 AM
you aren't a guru.  sit yo ass down.  ;D

Ha!  I can calculate a beta with the best of them 8).

you would still be earning .25%.  fall back son!  :D

lol that's just staying on top of the latest offerings by financial service companies.  In terms of actual investment strategy, I know my ish yo ;).
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 21, 2007, 09:27:50 AM
cahow,
pay off a loan directly or make the minimum payments assuming staffords at 6.8% (with all the associated consolidation benefits) while keeping the money in an esavings account at ~6%?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: pikey on May 21, 2007, 09:29:00 AM
So you don't think the accident protection is worth the extra money?

How much is it?  And does it cover the display?  I just remember doing the cost-benefit analysis at the time and deciding that it wasn't worth it.  I haven't had a single problem out of mine after 2 years of daily use (e.g., throwing it in my bag, docking and undocking every day, etc.).

It's about $160 more than the regular 3 year warranty.  I'm not sure if I think it's worth it...
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on May 21, 2007, 09:30:53 AM
cahow,
pay off a loan directly or make the minimum payments assuming staffords at 6.8% (with all the associated consolidation benefits) while keeping the money in an esavings account at ~6%?

You should pay off the loan if it's accumulating interest at a higher rate than your alternative investment.  But under the scenario that we talked about, the staffords would be less than the esavings rate.  Are you missing some rate deductions?

ETA: I'm only answering this b/c I figure, knowing you, you're going to twist it to refute what I said earlier ;)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on May 21, 2007, 09:32:38 AM
So you don't think the accident protection is worth the extra money?

How much is it?  And does it cover the display?  I just remember doing the cost-benefit analysis at the time and deciding that it wasn't worth it.  I haven't had a single problem out of mine after 2 years of daily use (e.g., throwing it in my bag, docking and undocking every day, etc.).

It's about $160 more than the regular 3 year warranty.  I'm not sure if I think it's worth it...

Yeah I skipped it.  But I suppose there is some risk involved in that.  No problems so far though.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: pikey on May 21, 2007, 09:33:02 AM
cahow,
pay off a loan directly or make the minimum payments assuming staffords at 6.8% (with all the associated consolidation benefits) while keeping the money in an esavings account at ~6%?

You should pay off the loan if it's accumulating interest at a higher rate than your alternative investment.  But under the scenario that we talked about, the staffords would be less than the esavings rate.  Are you missing some rate deductions?

titcr
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on May 21, 2007, 09:40:50 AM
cahow,
pay off a loan directly or make the minimum payments assuming staffords at 6.8% (with all the associated consolidation benefits) while keeping the money in an esavings account at ~6%?

You should pay off the loan if it's accumulating interest at a higher rate than your alternative investment.  But under the scenario that we talked about, the staffords would be less than the esavings rate.  Are you missing some rate deductions?

ETA: I'm only answering this b/c I figure, knowing you, you're going to twist it to refute what I said earlier ;)

 >:( NEGRO What yo name is? 

Don't get mad 'cause I'm one...step...ahead.  :D
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 21, 2007, 09:42:06 AM
negro can't even remember his name and wants props  ::smh::
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 21, 2007, 09:55:25 AM
A $1 million retirement fund: how to get there
By JONATHAN CLEMENTS
The Wall Street Journal
May 20, 2007 6:00 AM
If you are a newly minted college graduate, the $1 million-plus needed for retirement might seem impossibly large.

Feeling discouraged? Try lowering your sights, aiming instead to accumulate savings equal to two times your annual income.

Once you hit that milestone, the financial wind will be at your back, and reaching your retirement-savings goal should be a breeze.

Breaking through. Suppose you expect to eventually earn $80,000 a year. Looking ahead to retirement, you reckon that — in addition to Social Security — you will want about $45,000 a year from your portfolio, adjusted for inflation.

To generate that $45,000, you will need a $1 million nest egg, calculated in today's dollars. This assumes that, in retirement, you use a 4.5 percent annual portfolio withdrawal rate.

"People wonder how they will ever accumulate enough money," says Charles Farrell, a financial adviser with Denver's Northstar Investment Advisors. "But what many investors fail to understand is that once they reach a certain level of assets, most of the savings should come from investment growth."

Mr. Farrell figures the breakthrough occurs at around two times the income. Let's say your salary has hit that $80,000, you have amassed $160,000 in savings, you are socking away 12 percent of your pretax income each month and your investments earn 6 percent a year.

Over the next 12 months, your $160,000 portfolio would balloon to $179,518, or $19,518 more. Your monthly savings would account for $9,600 of that growth. But the other $9,918 would come from investment gains. In other words, you have gotten to the crossover point, where the biggest driver of your portfolio's growth is now investment earnings, not the actual dollars you are socking away.

You should, however, keep salting away money. That sacrifice will be handsomely rewarded as things really start to snowball. Using the assumptions above, your portfolio would soar from $160,000 to more than $418,000 a decade later. True, part of this gain would be lost to inflation. But inflation also should drive up your salary, allowing you to squirrel away more money.

Getting started. That still leaves the initial task of accumulating two times the income.

"It can take people 12 to 15 years," Mr. Farrell says. "The earlier you can start, the better. But if you're close to two times pay by your early 40s, you're probably in pretty good shape."

As you strive to amass that sum, your top priority should be funding your employer's 401(k) plan. In addition to the initial tax deduction and continuing tax deferral, you probably will receive a matching employer contribution, which will help speed your portfolio's progress.

If you can, save outside your employer's plan by funding a Roth individual retirement account. That won't get you an initial tax deduction, but you will enjoy tax-free growth. A Roth also offers a heap of flexibility. At any time, you can withdraw your contributions — but not the account's investment earnings — without any sort of tax hit. That means your Roth could double as an emergency reserve or as your house down-payment fund.

Which investments should you buy? Check out broadly diversified no-load funds such as AARP Aggressive and Schwab Target 2040, both of which require a $100 initial investment.

Until you reach Schwab's $1,000 brokerage-account minimum, you will have to add $100 every month through an automatic investment plan, in which money is pulled out of your bank account and invested directly in the fund.

Also consider Fidelity Freedom 2050 and T. Rowe Price Retirement 2050. The regular minimum for both funds is $2,500. T. Rowe Price will trim that minimum to $1,000 if you open an IRA and waive the minimum entirely if you sign up for a $50-a-month automatic investment plan. Similarly, at Fidelity Freedom 2050, you can sidestep the minimum if you agree to invest $200 a month through Fidelity's SimpleStart IRA program.

Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Tony Montana on May 21, 2007, 10:00:59 AM
negro can't even remember his name and wants props  ::smh::



Lol.  OSA aka "the nutcracker." 
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 21, 2007, 10:06:25 AM
These are mildly amusing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwsYQBMWpzQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Us_k22q_bDw&NR=1

Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on May 21, 2007, 10:20:27 AM
That second one has been posted several times.  Still funny though.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 21, 2007, 10:23:38 AM
That second one has been posted several times.  Still funny though.

on blsd?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on May 21, 2007, 10:28:46 AM
Yeah at least twice in the videos thread.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 21, 2007, 10:35:13 AM
proof?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on May 21, 2007, 10:43:46 AM
Nukka!  I have a Bus Orgs exam tomorrow.  No time to search through that thread.  But I think that I personally posted it once.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 21, 2007, 10:54:42 AM
Nukka!  I have a Bus Orgs exam tomorrow.  No time to search through that thread.  But I think that I personally posted it once.

but time to answer questions asked to other people?  interesting.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 21, 2007, 10:59:41 AM
how do you like Emigrant?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: pikey on May 21, 2007, 11:22:18 AM
Oh and Moni, what would it take in trade for you to be my financial adviser?  Throw something out there. :)

Sewing skills!  You know I don't have any.  I already have a pair of pants with the hem out on one leg.  My mom tried to tell me that I should hem it myself and looked at her like she's crazy.  I can't practice on my good work pants!  :D
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: pikey on May 21, 2007, 11:39:17 AM
Oh and Moni, what would it take in trade for you to be my financial adviser?  Throw something out there. :)

Sewing skills!  You know I don't have any.  I already have a pair of pants with the hem out on one leg.  My mom tried to tell me that I should hem it myself and looked at her like she's crazy.  I can't practice on my good work pants!  :D

Done and done.  You'll be whiz.

Is it bad if I meant sew for me, not help me learn?  :-[  :P
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: pikey on May 21, 2007, 11:52:35 AM
Oh and Moni, what would it take in trade for you to be my financial adviser?  Throw something out there. :)

Sewing skills!  You know I don't have any.  I already have a pair of pants with the hem out on one leg.  My mom tried to tell me that I should hem it myself and looked at her like she's crazy.  I can't practice on my good work pants!  :D

Done and done.  You'll be whiz.

Is it bad if I meant sew for me, not help me learn?  :-[  :P

No, but what're you gonna do when I'm not around? :D

Hire somebody?  Both my mom and bf think I should learn, but to be honest I don't think I'm that good with my hands (insert cheesy off color joke here). 

Edit: but if anybody can teach me, you can, so I may submit yet!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 21, 2007, 11:59:32 AM
hey >:(.  what do I get?   
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: pikey on May 21, 2007, 12:02:19 PM
hey >:(.  what do I get?   

undying gratitude?  :D
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 21, 2007, 12:36:46 PM
hey >:(.  what do I get?   

undying gratitude?  :D

Pretty much. :)  I can pester Cahow locally, so it's different.  :D

et tu brute?  geographic discrimination!

Three lenders sweeten student loan discounts

By Kathy Chu, USA TODAY
With the student loan industry under scrutiny, at least three lenders are sweetening their discounts on loans, potentially cutting costs for millions of students.
The lenders — Sallie Mae (SLM), Nelnet (NNI) and College Loan Corp. — say they've decided to make their loans more enticing because of fierce competition in the industry. Yet the discounts come just as regulators are questioning whether students and alumni have been paying higher loan rates because of cozy deals in which some colleges received cash and trips to steer students to certain lenders.

"As the public turns its eye to the student loan market, the lenders are trying to appear competitive," says Luke Swarthout, a consumer advocate at the U.S. Public Interest Research Group.

Alarmed that lenders have been increasingly profiting as students fall deeper in debt, Congress has also been weighing whether to cut its subsidies for federally backed loans. Lenders are likely sweetening discounts "to stave off (subsidy) cuts," says Mark Kantrowitz of FinAid, a financial aid website. "They're making the argument, 'We're doing more now, so do you want to risk' " those discounts?

Lenders warn that lower federal subsidies would shrink their profits, eroding their ability to offer discounts. "There's no doubt a subsidy cut … is going to mean higher-cost loans to students," says Tom Joyce, a spokesman for Sallie Mae.

In the past, Sallie Mae offered a discount of a quarter percentage point on its Stafford federal loans. But in July, it will offer a reduction of a half percentage point on new Stafford loans for students who arrange for automatic payments. And, for the first time, it will offer a discount of a half percentage point for those who take out private loans, which aren't federally guaranteed. To get the discount, these borrowers, too, would have to enroll in automatic bill payment.

Nelnet will offer a rate cut of 1 full point, starting in July, on new Stafford loans if payments are debited from a bank account, up from a quarter-point discount currently. These discounts might lead more borrowers to debit their payments electronically; only 7% to 13% of them do so now, Kantrowitz says.

Meanwhile, for loans that are consolidated in 2007, College Loan is offering a 1-point rate cut after 48 consecutive on-time payments; that's on top of an existing cash rebate of up to 2% of principal after nine on-time payments in a row.

More-generous loan terms can help individual lenders gain an edge over rivals at a time when colleges are rethinking their "preferred lender" lists, says Fritz Elmendorf of the Consumer Bankers Association.

Kantrowitz says he expects other lenders to follow suit because investigators are looking into the lenders' policies and Congress is considering cutting subsidies.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 23, 2007, 10:32:04 AM
Financial Planning for the Not-Yet-Rich
Industry Targets More Services at Long-Ignored Demographic
Of People in Their 20s and 30s; 'We're Behind the Eight Ball'
By JEFF D. OPDYKE

Financial planners are beginning to pay closer attention to people in their 20s and 30s, a group that has long received the brushoff from the financial-services industry because of its lack of wealth.

 
Tom and Donna Dietrick, a young couple in Mt. Lebanon, Pa., got professional advice to help sort out a host of financial decisions.
Many people in this age group, launching careers and starting families, are looking for a wide range of financial advice. Among other things, they need help investing in their first 401(k) plans, saving for a house, understanding insurance needs and managing debt and budgets.

And lately, they're finding a financial industry increasingly willing to help. Though the bulk of the industry's efforts remain focused on the baby boomers and retirees with the fattest wallets, planning firms and some brokerage houses are beginning to provide services aimed squarely at a younger demographic. These clients are younger than the relatively established middle-age set traditionally targeted by the firms. But a growing number of planners recognize the possibilities of taking on clients who they suspect will work or inherit their way into larger wealth in coming years.

Marta and Jake Kagan -- she's 35 and a marketing manager, he's 32 and a physician still in residency -- knew they needed help when they began a hunt last year for their first house. The Boston couple has student loans to pay off, two children to provide for and live in a place "where we can't buy a starter home for under $500,000," says Ms. Kagan. "We feel like we're behind the eight ball relative to where our parents were."

Four months ago, they hired Stacy Francis, a 32-year-old New York planner, largely because "I want someone closer to my age, closer to our realities," Ms. Kagan says. Ms. Francis, a fee-only planner, provided the Kagans a year-by-year plan. "It's a conservative, clear view that looks at our future more broadly so that we can see how to get from point A to point B. We've decided to wait before we look for a house."

For the most part, people like the Kagans are largely underserved by the financial industry. Research by the Financial Planning Association, an umbrella group for planners, shows that just 11% of the industry's client base is under the age of 40, though that same research also indicates that people approaching 40 are the most eager for financial advice.

Jennifer Cray, a planner in Menlo Park, Calif., says demand from younger clients is so great that she now turns away potential business because she's already loaded with people in this age group. Ms. Francis has begun hosting seminars for younger clients, who now account for half of her business. And in Dallas, Kalita Blessing, a planner with Quest Capital Management, says a quarter of her business is now young people because "so many parents are gifting financial plans to their kids." Those parents recognize that their offspring often have large debts from school loans, likely won't have pensions to rely on, and could face a sharply altered Social Security system at retirement.

Tom and Donna Dietrick, a Mount Lebanon, Pa., couple, went looking for a planner last year to help wade through the abundance of investment and savings options that boomers never had when they were younger -- everything from online savings accounts to Roth IRAs and 529 college savings plans. Mr. Dietrick, a 38-year-old worker at US Airways Group Inc., says he and his wife "got to a point where we said we've got to find someone who can help us prioritize because there are so many options and philosophies on what's best to do."

The Dietricks hired Pittsburgh planner Bob Nusbaum, with whom they spent five or six hours over several sessions. Mr. Nusbaum rearranged their portfolio and helped them begin looking toward retirement, their life-insurance needs and their kids' education. "We don't have an enormous amount to invest, and we just want to know it's doing its best," Mr. Dietrick says. The planner "even looked at our budget and told us we're not spending enough on leisure."

The best time for young people to consider hiring a financial professional "is when you land your first real job," says Barbara Roper, director of investor protection for the Consumer Federation of America. "At that point, you have a variety of financial issues to consider, such as your 401(k) plan and your benefits," and a financial plan will set you on an appropriate course, she says.

For savers with modest assets, Ms. Roper says, a fee-only planner is generally the best match. These planners only sell their time, at a cost of between $100 and roughly $250 an hour, depending on where they're based geographically. Because they don't pitch products tied to a particular company, "it minimizes the potential conflicts," she says.

 
To find local planners, consumers should ask friends, family and colleagues if they can recommend someone they trust. Several Web sites, including the National Association of Personal Financial Advisors (napfa.org5), the Financial Planning Association (fpanet.org6) and the Garrett Planning Network (garrettplanningnetwork.com7), which emphasizes planners who charge by the hour, offer locator services to help find planners in your area. Planners with a CFP designation, for certified financial planner, have passed a comprehensive exam that typically requires multiple years of study.

Jennifer Billock, a 36-year-old San Francisco grad-school student, says she and her husband, Jim, have worked with several different professionals -- from big brokerage firms to various financial planners -- and "all we ever got were computerized asset allocations that cost $400 to $1,500," she says. "We don't have much money, so it seemed irrelevant."

The couple then went looking for a financial pro "who is objective, and would do more than just portfolio planning," Ms. Billock says. After a three-month search they found Ms. Cray in Menlo Park, a fee-only planner who charges $240 an hour, or a retainer of between $290 and $490 a month for unlimited access.

"She went through all this insurance stuff I never thought of, and helped with our cash-flow analysis. When we were setting up a 529 plan for our daughter, she told us the firm's expert was just finishing new research and to wait a bit for the analysis. So she's not giving us canned answers."

Some young people want a hand on their money. Tim Leidig, a 28-year-old applications analyst in York, Pa., says he seeks advice from Mr. Nusbaum, the Pittsburgh planner, on everything from where to invest his 401(k) plan to whether he should pay off his student loans quickly or use that money for other financial needs. But then Mr. Leidig tracks down specific investment options and makes his own decisions.

"I feel like I'm getting totally independent advice," Mr. Leidig says. "And I remain in charge of my assets."

Some savers want not just planning, but money-management services, as well. That adds extra charges, either through commissions or an annual fee based on a percentage of the assets under management, usually up to 1% or 1.5%. If you're a buy-and-hold type of investor, paying commissions for money-management services can make the most sense, because these can work out to be less than continually paying an annual management fee when your portfolio doesn't change.

Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on May 23, 2007, 10:35:44 AM
What to Do with $2,500:
Advice for Young Investors
After a few years in the workforce we may find ourselves with a little extra cash. Maybe it's a delightfully large tax refund or an apartment deposit you finally got back, but it's the first significant sum of money you've had that doesn't need to be spent paying back loans or furnishing an empty apartment. For the first time, you want to save or invest that money, instead of spoiling yourself with a spray-on-tan.

I spoke with five financial advisers about what a young investor should do with a small windfall: $2,500. I created a profile of a twentysomething novice investor who doesn't have debts and is diligently paying into a 401(k). Investor X doesn't necessarily want to lock up this money until retirement. He or she may want to buy a house, fund a year off or have something socked away in case of a car crash or other emergency.

After each planner made a recommendation, I asked for numbers on the performance of their picks from the beginning of 2002 until this May. (See chart.)

 QUICK TAKE: WHAT THE ADVISERS TOLD ME

 
Set up a Roth IRA: Charles Buck, a financial planner in Woodbury, Minn.
Put some money aside in a CD: Richard Rosso, Houston-based Charles Schwab financial consultant
Be Aggressive: Kathy Hankard, financial planner in Verona, Wis.
ETFs, ETFs, ETFs: Kim Arthur, San Francisco, investment adviser
Take the bond route: Christine Fahlund, senior financial planner at T. Rowe Price in Baltimore.Set up a Roth IRA
Charles Buck, a financial planner in Woodbury, Minn., recommends that you set up a Roth IRA, as he did for his 27-year-old son. The nifty thing about the Roth is that we don't have to pay taxes when we finally withdraw the money after age 59 ½. We don't get a tax refund now on our contributions, but it's likely that we'll enter a higher tax bracket by retirement and will thus save the difference in taxes. In special cases, like when buying a home for the first time, all of the money in a Roth IRA can be tapped pre-retirement without penalties. We can also withdraw our contributions -- but not returns -- early without penalties. Keep in mind Roths are only for singles who make less than $110k or marrieds who make less than $160k.

Mr. Buck advises that the twentysomething investor's Roth IRA include shares in a diversified mutual fund targeted for retirement withdrawal in 2045. "Target-date funds are good for young people," he says: "Pick a fund, forget about it and it takes care of itself." Mr. Buck's fund pick is the T. Rowe Price Retirement 2045 Fund1. It charges a fee of 0.76%. T.Rowe Price has reported returns of 17.01% from the fund's inception on May 31, 2005 to April 30, 2007.

Put Something Aside First
Richard Rosso, a Charles Schwab financial planner in Houston, recommends setting your $2,500 aside in an emergency reserve for six months of living expenses. "Keep $1,000 in a CD that matures in 6 months, $1,000 in another that matures in 12 months, and put $500 in a savings account in case you need to change your tires or replace an air conditioner," he says. (For more info on CDs, see WSJ.com's savings center2 from Bankrate.com)

If you already have a reserve, Mr. Rosso says you should use the money for living expenses and increase your salary deferral to your 401(k) to benefit from employers' matching contributions.

 "If all this is done," says Mr. Rosso, "I would contribute to the Roth IRA…invest in a way that's fully diversified." The mutual fund Mr. Rosso recommends is the Schwab Total Stock Market Index Fund, which contains a large amount of U.S. stocks and charges a fee of 0.53%. Schwab reports a five-year annualized return of 7.43% for the fund. Setting up a Roth or traditional IRA through the brokerage's Web site is free. The other large financial services firms I mention in this column also offer free Roth IRA enrollment.

ETFs, ETFs, ETFs
For the young person who is eager to learn about securities and actively manage his or her own portfolio, exchange-traded funds are an option. An ETF tracks an individual stock index such as the S&P 500 or a specific asset class such as real estate, currencies or gold. Unlike mutual funds, ETFs trade on a stock exchange or in an electronic market. Expenses tend to be lower, and ETFs that track a multitude of securities may not be as much of a gamble as an individual stock.

Kim Arthur, an investment adviser in San Francisco, doesn't invest on behalf of people with less than $1 million dollars, but if he were your mom's best friend he might tell you, over lunch, that you should build a diversified ETF portfolio and rebalance it every year. His firm, Main Management, only manages ETF portfolios. He likes their transparency, tax efficiency and low expenses. The goal: "10%-type returns with lower volatility than the stock market."

The blend Mr. Arthur recommends, and calls "all asset lite," contains five different ETFs weighted at different percentages. For stocks: 30% Vanguard Total Market and 30% State Street Developed and Emerging Market. For bonds: 20% iShares 3-7 year Treasury. For commodities and real estate: 10% PowerShares DB G10 Currency Harvest Fund and 10% State Street International REIT. "It's diversification at a low price," he says, "there are over 2,000 stocks in this blend." Though many of these ETFs didn't exist five years ago, Mr. Arthur calculates that based on their underlying indexes, an investment of $2,500 would have returned an annual average of 12.91% between 2002 and now.

The expenses of an ETF are twofold: Those charged by the fund -- an average of 0.29% for all of Mr. Arthur's recommendations -- and broker trading fees. At TradeKing.com5, for example, you will pay $4.95 per trade. Re-balancing your portfolio back to the original asset weightings every year will cost $25. Mr. Arthur says these ETFs have a lot of assets and thus won't suddenly shut down, as some ETFs with lower net assets have recently done. (Read more about ETFs here6.)

Be Aggressive
If you expect to sell your shares ten years from now to purchase a house or pay a smidgen of your graduate-school tuition, financial planner Kathy Hankard says you want to be pretty aggressive and should invest in a mutual fund that is comprised mostly of stocks, with some short-term bonds. "You don't want to risk not making enough money and inflation eroding the value," says Ms. Hankard, whose firm is based in Verona, Wis.

She suggests the Vanguard Star Fund, for its low fees: 0.35%. It is the only fund that Vanguard offers for investors with less than $3,000. Made up of 11 mutual funds, the "fund of funds" invests 62% in stocks, 25% in bonds, and 13% in short-term bonds. Vanguard's Fran Kinniry, a principal of investment counseling and research, says it's good for investors with a five-20 year horizon, and gives broad diversification. Vanguard lists the fund's annualized five-year return as 8.26%.

The risks of stocks are serious – you can lose your money -- and should be considered whenever a mutual fund is heavily weighted in stocks. Intermediate government bonds, a more conservative option, will yield negative returns extremely rarely, but they will not likely return more than 8% per year, according to charts going back to 1966 by Morningstar Inc. High-yield bonds, on the other hand, are loans to companies that might default and never return your cash -- but if they do, your return will be a percentage that's typically higher than that of government bonds. The Merrill Lynch High Yield Master II Index, a benchmark, has average five-year returns of 10.36%.

Take the Bond Route
One planner recommended bonds for young people who don't know how their financial needs will flesh out.

"So many things are going to change in your twenties that it's possible you're going to need some of this money," says Christine Fahlund, a senior financial planner at T. Rowe Price in Baltimore. When Ms. Fahlund's son inherited some money and stashed it away in a conservative money market account, she thought that was correct. "You don't want to be in stocks with this money, and you have a lot of issues on your mind right now." Ms. Fahlund remembers telling him, "you might use it next year." She recommends using $2,000 of your $2,500 on a mutual fund that's heavy in bonds, the T. Rowe Price Spectrum Income Fund (with fees of 0.70%), and putting the other $500 in a conservative money market fund, her company's Prime Reserve fund (0.60% fees).

T. Rowe reports a five-year annualized return of 8.16% for the Spectrum fund and 2.21% for the Prime Reserve fund.

When many of us get a bit of extra cash, we consult a list to choose between a new laptop or a trip to some hot place with scuba diving. Perhaps we shy away from saving or investing because we're intimidated. Don't be.



How'd They Do?
If we'd invested $2,500 in 2002 in the funds recommended by the planners, what would have happened? After each planner made a recommendation, I asked them to tally up the returns for that fund from January 1, 2002 to May 1, 2007. During that same time period cumulative total returns on the S&P 500 were 41.9%. (A note: Since many of the ETFs Kim Arthur recommends did not exist in 2002, we were unable to perform this exercise on his picks.) --E.M.

Fund  Expenses  Ending Balance  % Return 
Vanguard Star Fund  $77.80  $3,862  54.48% 
T. Rowe Price Spectrum Fund  $156  $3,791  51.63% 
T. Rowe Price Prime Reserve  $92  $2,804  12.14% 
Schwab Total Stock Market Index Fund  $77.68  $3,771.50  50.86% 
  URL for this article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB117983986061710772.html

 
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 15, 2007, 01:13:35 PM
Curious, how many folk here have started IRAs (tax sheltered individual retirement accounts)?  After getting a bit more info about it this spring, I've been converted.  If you have one, where did you start it and why?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: pikey on June 15, 2007, 01:24:11 PM
Curious, how many folk here have started IRAs? After getting a bit more info about it this spring, I've been converted.  If you have one, where did you start it and why?

I don't have an IRA but I have a retirement account/pension.  I've been contributing since I started working and have also received a 5% contribution from the bank.  It just vested (I think this week), which means that I can't touch it until I retire.  It's mandatory (by Bermuda law) so I really don't have a choice!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 15, 2007, 01:35:40 PM
Curious, how many folk here have started IRAs? After getting a bit more info about it this spring, I've been converted.  If you have one, where did you start it and why?

I don't have an IRA but I have a retirement account/pension.  I've been contributing since I started working and have also received a 5% contribution from the bank.  It just vested (I think this week), which means that I can't touch it until I retire.  It's mandatory (by Bermuda law) so I really don't have a choice!

a well functioning social security system?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on June 15, 2007, 01:39:05 PM
TIAA CREF.. DCPS kicked it off but I've kept it going..

Curious, how many folk here have started IRAs? After getting a bit more info about it this spring, I've been converted.  If you have one, where did you start it and why?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: pikey on June 15, 2007, 01:43:16 PM
Curious, how many folk here have started IRAs? After getting a bit more info about it this spring, I've been converted.  If you have one, where did you start it and why?

I don't have an IRA but I have a retirement account/pension.  I've been contributing since I started working and have also received a 5% contribution from the bank.  It just vested (I think this week), which means that I can't touch it until I retire.  It's mandatory (by Bermuda law) so I really don't have a choice!

a well functioning social security system?

Well we have both.  Social insurance is the equivalent of social security, while pension is a private pension through your employer.  Both are taken directly from your paycheck, but si goes to the govt while pension is through you job and is usually administered by an insurance company.  All employers in Bermuda (that includes families with nannies!) are required to provide pension and health insurance for their employees.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 15, 2007, 01:47:07 PM
TIAA CREF.. DCPS kicked it off but I've kept it going..

Curious, how many folk here have started IRAs (tax sheltered individual retirement accounts)? After getting a bit more info about it this spring, I've been converted.  If you have one, where did you start it and why?

sorry I'm only semi-financially literate so please explain.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on June 15, 2007, 02:06:45 PM
DCPS - DC Public Schools lol...TIAA CREF is short for Teachers Insurance and Annuity Association, College Retirement Equities Fund...

Charles Schwab has excellent products as well.. my parents advised my brothers and me to begin those accounts as soon as we could afford to...

I wish we could go back to the 80s though..when the returns on CDs were excellent..these days the rates are so low one might as well look into other options for "locking up" untouchable funds for a short period of time...


TIAA CREF.. DCPS kicked it off but I've kept it going..

Curious, how many folk here have started IRAs (tax sheltered individual retirement accounts)? After getting a bit more info about it this spring, I've been converted.  If you have one, where did you start it and why?

sorry I'm only semi-financially literate so please explain.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 15, 2007, 02:26:57 PM
thanks.  :) what rate was it in the 80s?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on June 15, 2007, 02:30:22 PM
not completely sure but i know of an 8k cd started in 87 that quadrupled by 95...

thanks.  :) what rate was it in the 80s?
Title: Roth IRA
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 19, 2007, 01:29:53 PM
Thinking about making the plunge and setting up a Roth IRA with Vanguard.  Thoughts?
Title: Re: Roth IRA
Post by: A. on June 19, 2007, 01:32:12 PM
Thinking about making the plunge and setting up a Roth IRA with Vanguard.  Thoughts?

I'm going to sponge, k? :)
Title: Re: Roth IRA
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 19, 2007, 01:41:05 PM
Thinking about making the plunge and setting up a Roth IRA with Vanguard.  Thoughts?

I'm going to sponge, k? :)

 :D I'm sure.  looks like I need to go to the nillas on this one.
Title: Re: Roth IRA
Post by: A. on June 19, 2007, 01:41:40 PM
Thinking about making the plunge and setting up a Roth IRA with Vanguard.  Thoughts?

I'm going to sponge, k? :)

 :D I'm sure.  looks like I need to go to the nillas on this one.

Duh!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: 2Lacoste on June 19, 2007, 02:39:26 PM
I've wanted to set up a Roth IRA for the last three years but I've been broke and always used whatever free cash I received to pay off all my credit cards (thankfully securing decent credit at a young age, phew). 

But now I need to just go and do it.

So how much does it cost to set up a Roth IRA?  How much do I have to have to start one?  $5K?  $2K?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 19, 2007, 02:43:22 PM
I've wanted to set up a Roth IRA for the last three years but I've been broke and always used whatever free cash I received to pay off all my credit cards (thankfully securing decent credit at a young age, phew). 

But now I need to just go and do it.

So how much does it cost to set up a Roth IRA?  How much do I have to have to start one?  $5K?  $2K?

for 2007 you can contribute 4k max.   For Vanguard if you want one of their target funds you need 3k minimum, but if you do the STAR account it is 1k (make sure you sign up for estatements and they'll waive the low balance fee).  I think Fidelity lets you start one for $2,500 as long as you set up $100 monthly withdrawls.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 20, 2007, 08:48:53 AM
Invest for Retirement Guide:
http://invest-for-retirement.com/06_19_07.pdf
Title: Re: Roth IRA
Post by: blk_reign on June 20, 2007, 10:21:14 AM
I think that you should meet with a CPA or financial planner before you make the decision..someone that has been in the business for at least 10 yrs..

Thinking about making the plunge and setting up a Roth IRA with Vanguard.  Thoughts?

I'm going to sponge, k? :)

 :D I'm sure.  looks like I need to go to the nillas on this one.
Title: Re: Roth IRA
Post by: pikey on June 20, 2007, 10:23:59 AM
I think that you should meet with a CPA or financial planner before you make the decision..someone that has been in the business for at least 10 yrs..

Thinking about making the plunge and setting up a Roth IRA with Vanguard.  Thoughts?

I'm going to sponge, k? :)

 :D I'm sure.  looks like I need to go to the nillas on this one.

I don't think that's necessary, but I'm no expert by any means (then again, I am the product of a CPA and a CFA, so I've prolly learned by osmosis too).  OSA, if you pm me the details (fees, front load, back load, brief historical performance, etc) I could give you an inexpert opinion.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 20, 2007, 10:24:05 AM
I'll probably send one an email before I make the *final* decision, but given I won't be retiring for quite some time (and I can always move it around) I can afford to not worry too much about it.
Title: Re: Roth IRA
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 20, 2007, 10:24:59 AM
I think that you should meet with a CPA or financial planner before you make the decision..someone that has been in the business for at least 10 yrs..

Thinking about making the plunge and setting up a Roth IRA with Vanguard.  Thoughts?

I'm going to sponge, k? :)

 :D I'm sure.  looks like I need to go to the nillas on this one.

I don't think that's necessary, but I'm no expert by any means (then again, I am the product of a CPA and a CFA, so I've prolly learned by osmosis too).  OSA, if you pm me the details (fees, front load, back load, brief historical performance, etc) I could give you an inexpert opinion.

Sweet!  You're the best!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on June 20, 2007, 10:27:06 AM
Sponging is great :)
Title: Re: Roth IRA
Post by: blk_reign on June 20, 2007, 10:28:05 AM
good stuff cahow :)...I think that the family background and your major/interests play a huge part in your knowledge of finance..

I think that you should meet with a CPA or financial planner before you make the decision..someone that has been in the business for at least 10 yrs..

Thinking about making the plunge and setting up a Roth IRA with Vanguard.  Thoughts?

I'm going to sponge, k? :)

 :D I'm sure.  looks like I need to go to the nillas on this one.

I don't think that's necessary, but I'm no expert by any means (then again, I am the product of a CPA and a CFA, so I've prolly learned by osmosis too).  OSA, if you pm me the details (fees, front load, back load, brief historical performance, etc) I could give you an inexpert opinion.
Title: Re: Roth IRA
Post by: pikey on June 20, 2007, 10:44:57 AM
good stuff cahow :)...I think that the family background and your major/interests play a huge part in your knowledge of finance..

I think that you should meet with a CPA or financial planner before you make the decision..someone that has been in the business for at least 10 yrs..

Thinking about making the plunge and setting up a Roth IRA with Vanguard.  Thoughts?

I'm going to sponge, k? :)

 :D I'm sure.  looks like I need to go to the nillas on this one.

I don't think that's necessary, but I'm no expert by any means (then again, I am the product of a CPA and a CFA, so I've prolly learned by osmosis too).  OSA, if you pm me the details (fees, front load, back load, brief historical performance, etc) I could give you an inexpert opinion.

Definitely.  My parents have always given us good financial advice, as well as trained us to know the importance of saving.  When I was in college I would save my summer earnings to pay for my COL for fall semester.  We'd also have to make a budget every year and my parents would use it to determine how much additional help they'd give.  They were the parents who owned several properties, but drove an old car.  I remember being all excited when my parents bought their first brand new car back in 97/98.  It's still our primary car (my sister also has an ancient kia that she calls kitty, which I've nicknamed bad kitty). 

From them I've learned about everything from minimising tax consequences (as well as other liabilities) by having a trust putting properties in a trust to the importance of saving and paying yourself first.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: 2Lacoste on June 20, 2007, 11:42:20 AM
Invest for Retirement Guide:
http://invest-for-retirement.com/06_19_07.pdf


Very helpful since I'm financially retarded.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: pikey on June 20, 2007, 11:52:01 AM
OSA: definitely the Vangurad fund (imo)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 20, 2007, 01:17:50 PM
OSA: definitely the Vangurad fund (imo)

thats what I was thinking, but why?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on June 21, 2007, 09:02:03 AM
Money Sense: Boost Your Credit Score
Here are 5 simple ways


By Alfred Edmond, Jr., Black Enterprise Editor-in-Chief

Several Doug Banks Morning Show listeners e-mailed me last week after our discussion on the benefits of great credit, wanting to know what they could do to significantly boost their credit scores in less than a year. If you remember, I said the median credit score for all Americans is 723, with a perfect score being 850. Your goal should be scores at least equal to the median.

Some people are looking for some magic, secret trick to boosting their scores by 100 points or more. Sorry, I'm a magazine editor, not a miracle worker. If you have maxed out all of your credit cards, have several charge-offs, a reposession and a bankrutpcy filing, it will probably take more time and effort to get your score to 723 than a person who just has a few late payments on their credit report. That said, the most important things we can do to boost our credit scores are pretty much the same for everyone.

1. Pay your bills on time every time. Again, this is the single largest factor, 35%, effecting your credit score. We're talking rent or mortgage, utilities, car note, and phone, as well as your credit card bills—everything. If you won't commit to doing this, almost everything else you try to lift your score will be less effective, so stop looking for a way around this one.

2. Pay down your balances to no more than 50% of your available credit. Better yet, bring it down to 30%. In other words, if you have a $15,000 limit on one credit card, you want to get that balance down to between $5,000 and $7,500 owed as quickly as possible—and keep it there. That guideline should apply to all of your consumer debt.

3.Always pay more than the minimum due. This will help you to get your balance down more quickly, and save you money on interest payments over time.

4. Stop creating new debt. You have two choices: 1. lock up your credit cards so that you can't use them (some recommend freezing in a block of ice in the freezer) or, 2. pay off all charges made during the month IN FULL or pay the minimum payment plus all new charges each month. This means if you plan to charge $60 for dinner at a restaurant and $150 for a new outfit this month, and your minimum payment due is $120 on your next bill, then you need to be prepared to pay $330 toward your next bill. Check yourself before you wreck yourself: It's probably a better idea to just lock away the credit cards.

5. Guard your identity as if your life depends on it—because it does. Review your credit reports at least twice a year, in addition to any time you plan to apply for new credit. If you find descrepancies deal with them immediately.Get a shredder, and use it to destroy all documents, including junk mail, containing your personal information. The last thing you want to happen is for someone to steal your identity and create bad credit in your name.

If you need help, admit you have a problem and get it right away. Here's a hint: if you can't consistently do steps 1–4, then you are probably in deeper trouble than you think. You don't have to wait until you are forced to consider bankruptcy before you seek credit counseling (now a legal requirement for all people who want to file for personal bankruptcy protection). Contact the National Foundation for Credit Counseling (1-800-388-2227) to find a reputable, non-profit credit counseling agency in your area.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 21, 2007, 09:53:18 AM
from the April 02, 2007 edition - http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0402/p13s02-wmgn.html
Step cautiously into an online bank
Interest rates and convenience are high, but so are security concerns. And customers have to be especially vigilant.
By G. Jeffrey MacDonald | Correspondent
For savers looking to get the highest possible interest rates on their cash holdings, the call of the Internet keeps getting louder.

In March, ING Direct launched nationwide the first completely electronic checking account. Depositors receive 4 percent interest on balances up to $50,000 and have no minimum requirements. This month, HSBC plans to roll out its own high-yield electronic checking account with an interest rate that's soon to be announced.

High-yield checking accounts mark the latest enticing offer from a universe of about 60 domestically registered virtual banks, which conduct business online rather than in brick-and-mortar operations. Virtual savings accounts now routinely pay 5 percent or more. Deal hunters are also finding mortgages with reduced fees and higher than average rates on certificates of deposit.

Taking advantage of virtual bank products, however, involves more than just a few clicks of the mouse. Vigilant maintenance of computer security systems is a must for anyone with a virtual account, say bankers and security experts. And even then, experts differ about what's the best way to manage accounts in order to maximize returns while minimizing risks.

Some financial advisers urge clients to follow the money. A person who isn't carrying high-interest debt and wants to keep cash on hand for a rainy day should consider putting most of the cash in virtual accounts, according to Bill Driscoll, a financial planner in Plymouth, Mass. The reason: high returns and low risk.

"There's absolutely no commitment. Why wouldn't you take advantage of it?" Mr. Driscoll asks. On the matter of security, he says, "You have just as much risk in a regular bank as you do with an Internet bank [because] they're all using the Internet for electronic information and for transmitting data."

But others disagree. Security consultant Andrew Colarik, who has written three books on cyberterrorism, says anyone with a virtual account should use it solely to pay one month's bills and keep the rest in accounts that aren't accessible online. That way a depositor limits risk of loss, he says, since "we keep taking for granted that all of this technology has been perfected, and it hasn't been."

"A higher interest rate means a higher risk, and somehow we have disconnected this" from current thinking about virtual banks, Mr. Colarik says. "If there is a breach, if there is a violation, what is your recourse?" In most cases, he says, chances are "you lose your money."

To date, the largest Internet banks report solid safety records. HSBC and ING Direct, for instance, both say they've never had a customer lose any funds due to a security breach. And even when Emigrant Direct's website was down for days last summer, customers didn't lose their money, although some complained of difficulty accessing funds.

What's more, in an age of concerns about identity theft, some advisers believe clients are actually more secure using virtual banks. The absence of a paper trail, which follows traditional banking transactions, reduces the likelihood that a thief will find valuable account numbers or passcodes in garbage bins, according to Justin Pritchard, a financial planner in Denver. And even paper checks have their downsides.

"It's worse to hand someone your paper check than it is to hand someone your user name and password of your online account," says Jim Bruene, editor of Online Banking Report, an industry newsletter. "That paper check not only has all your [contact] information on it, it has your checking account number on it. Your bank account number is right there, printed on the check," which could enable a counterfeiter to manufacture checks and drain an account of funds.

Virtual checking accounts are similar to regular checking accounts that are also accessible online, except the virtual accounts have a few distinguishing features. With ING Direct's checking account, holders can transfer funds to pay bills online or instruct the bank to cut and mail a paper check to a named recipient. The system is intended "for people who don't need hand-holding" and whose online banking habits have created little need in their lives for paper checks or branch access, says Todd Sandler, ING Direct's head of deposit services.

Online banking: the early years

Virtual banking got its start in October 1995 with the launch of First Security Network Bank. Even now, only 3 to 4 percent of American households have virtual accounts, but the number of households that use them has surged with the rise in interest rates. From 2004 through 2006, while the Federal Reserve was steadily raising interest rates, the number of virtual-banking households jumped 61 percent, from 2.3 million to 3.7 million, according to Online Banking Report. Now Americans keep between $80 billion and $90 billion in virtual accounts, compared with about $3 trillion in retail accounts with balances under $100,000.

Safeguards a must

Despite growing acceptance of virtual accounts, safeguards remain crucial for reducing risk. The challenge for consumers is to recognize what the risks are and how to block them.

"In the online banking world, the risks are a little bit different" than in bricks-and-mortar banking, says Ron Teixeira, executive director of the National Cyber Security Alliance, a nonprofit cosponsored by federal agencies and private donors, including computer security companies. "Unfortunately, the risks are a little bit closer to home [in virtual banking] because they exist on your computer."

Example: a computer virus or spyware attack could result in the transmission of account information or passwords to a would-be thief anywhere in the world. Mr. Teixeira points to what happened to one man's online trading account during the summer of 2005. A fraudster, he says, used a virus to infect his computer (which didn't have up-to-date antivirus software), monitor his keystrokes, sell the man's stocks, and move funds to the fraudster's bank. When the man logged on to check his portfolio, his life's savings of $174,000 was gone. He had no legal recourse, but the online brokerage opted to reimburse his account, Mr. Teixeira says. He suggests that a similar problem could happen to someone's Internet bank account. The lesson is to maintain up-to-date antivirus and antispyware software. Consumers also need to download free updates for their operating systems, such as those for Windows, to plug holes that violators may try to exploit.

Even with these defenses, vulnerabilities may persist. Both Teixeira and Colarik warn of so-called "man in the middle" attacks in which a perpetrator intercepts communication between a customer and an online bank and steals enough information to redirect funds. Teixeira says these violations are most likely to happen when a person accesses an account through an unsecured wireless platform, such as one offered at a cafe or hotel, where a thief might monitor a transaction surreptitiously.

Proper safeguards are necessary in part because the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. (FDIC) doesn't insure against theft. Meanwhile, financial advisers say even Internet-savvy clients shouldn't close up their bricks-and-mortar accounts altogether.

"There are always things coming up where you want to go talk to your banker" in person, says Peter Cacioppo, a financial planner in Moraga, Calif. Example: a person who sells a car may want a trusted banker to verify whether a check is valid. And a virtual bank will probably take longer than a traditional bank to cash that check. The usual protocol at virtual banks is to endorse the check and drop it in the mail for depositing.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 23, 2007, 11:57:56 AM
Young strivers find slacker friends costly
Successful twentysomethings find 'Entourage' lifestyle can get expensive
By Gayle B. Ronan
Updated: 1:47 p.m. ET April 20, 2007
"Every time the check arrives when I am out with my friend, he looks at me like it is not his problem," says Mike K., a 26-year-old bond trader in Chicago who asked not to be fully identified.  Mike admits he is doing well financially, but not so well he can pick up tabs whenever he is with someone making less. "It is to the point where I feel I have to choose between friendship and money." 

There is an inherent dilemma in moving from the collegial phase of social life, where sharing the wealth prevails over bar tabs and entertainment, to assuming the mantle of financial maturity. 

"It puts a serious strain on relationships, from both sides," says Stephen Hunsaker, a Texas Tech University student who provides peer-to-peer financial counseling.  "No one, regardless of their age, wants to break social connections over finances."

Yet that is what James Raysbrook, a 28-year-old Realtor in Seattle felt compelled to do. "I went through a bit of a grieving process," he admits.  Raysbrook began his career at 19, moving into a very adult tax bracket while his friends were still attending frat parties.

"These were folks who supported me emotionally and cheered me toward my goal.  But once I achieved it, they felt they were owed a piece of it.  There was so much pressure to prop them up." He adds, "There still is. I went through a period of denial. I wanted to believe I was the same person, but I was not. I moved on." 

And while many successful young people may feel they can afford to subsidize their less-affluent friends like Vince, the young Hollywood star at the center of the HBO series "Entourage," they often are surprised when the add up the costs, financial consultants say.

"The other day I asked a client if anything had changed," says Phil Traa, president of Traa Wealth Management in Lake Oswego, Ore. "She said, ‘Yes, I’m getting rid of my friends.’ "

His client, a woman in her 30s who won a generous settlement in a recent divorce, realized she was spending more money on everyone else than she was on herself. "An extra zero’s worth," says Traa.  Putting an end to years of peer-pressured spending, she is learning who in her life was just hanging around for her handouts.  "She is feeling used right now," says Traa.


"Sudden money, whether through inheritance or early success, creates a huge transition," he adds. "Not only is there pressure from friends and family members to be resisted, they also have to deal with what I call ‘the sharks.’ Sharks see a name in the newspaper, and start to circle in hopes of fast [money]."

But the most financially damaging source of pressure may just come from expectations. 

"Young adults feel pressure from what they and their friends think success is supposed to look like—how they should act and where they should live. It is not so much keeping up with the Joneses. It is a matter of keeping up with 'MTV Cribs,'" says Traa.

Traa, having counseled both newly professional athletes and software millionaires, has seen peer-pressured spending turn infectious.  "During the dot-com era — and more recently with young mortgage brokers — they all hung out together, reinforcing one another’s extravagant spending habits.  But what the former dot-com millionaires learned is once money is wasted, you can’t get it back," says Traa.


"For every hour of TV you watch, you seem to see three credit card commercials and an overwhelming number of images of the life you could be living," says Raysbrook, the Seattle Realtor. He confesses to learning the hard way, early on, that buying into the need to appear as successful as he felt was not getting him where he wanted to go.

"My financially immature friends all want to be that guy — whether that guy treats everyone at dinner or covers the bar bill or drives the hot car," he adds.


"But I’m the guy who scrimped and saved to put myself through college and have been working really hard to get where I want to go," says bond trader Mike. Which is why he is struggling not to let money come between him and his friends, nor his friends between him and a financially secure future.

That twentysomethings are even thinking about nest eggs and retirement accounts may be somewhat surprising.  But Mike is far from alone. Scottrade’s recent 2007 American Retirement Study found an astonishing level of financial maturity for its youngest adult respondents.

"While 59 percent of 18-24 year-olds said they saved for retirement in 2006, that number jumped to 89 percent for those who said they planned to save in 2007. Of 25-to-34-year olds, 70 percent saved in 2006 while 85 percent indicated they will save in 2007," says Chris Moloney, chief marketing officer for the St. Louis-based broker. "Previously, people waited for assets to accumulate before they began thinking about their financial futures and retirement.  With the Internet and the wealth of information available to them, many are starting younger," he adds.   

Still, there is a deepening gap between young haves and their have-not friends even though more of the "nots" possess college educations, according to Tamara Draut, author of "Strapped: Why America’s 20- and 30-Somethings Can’t Get Ahead," which examines why many young Americans lag financially while others spurt ahead.


"When a teacher and a stockbroker are old college friends, for instance, you find their dramatically different financial resources often create tension," says Draut.  "The stockbroker may resent the teacher expecting her to treat her to dinner, but the teacher may be equally resentful her friend chose such an expensive restaurant."   

Such inequities create social awkwardness, yet little conversation, observes Draut.   "It is hard to be the friend who says, 'I can’t come along because the restaurant is too expensive for me.' But we need to make it OK to start having these conversations; to start saying, ‘I cannot afford it.’ " 

And conversely: "I cannot keep floating you."

Financial maturity does not come with a job offer. But like the line one crosses into adulthood, emerging into financial maturity may come earlier for some than for others. It may also come at a cost — the loss of friends or of hard-earned money.


© 2007 MSNBC Interactive
URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18179204/
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 23, 2007, 01:29:32 PM
People seriously do that?  SMH.

do what?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 23, 2007, 01:37:50 PM
People seriously do that?  SMH.

do what?

Scam meals off their rich friends, or conversely, Entourage it up.

hmm I've definitely heard of the credit card "game" at HBS (everyone goes out for a super fancy meal and they draw one credit card to pay for it).   
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 23, 2007, 02:05:08 PM
That is not a game I would play. :D

I'd play with a Mall card capped at $30  ;D
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 23, 2007, 02:23:50 PM
That is not a game I would play. :D

I'd play with a Mall card capped at $30  ;D

SMH.  I'm never going to dinner with you. :D

we can do dinner- just don't come expecting me to pay for everyone else's shennaigans!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on June 23, 2007, 02:31:29 PM
People seriously do that?  SMH.

do what?

Scam meals off their rich friends, or conversely, Entourage it up.

hmm I've definitely heard of the credit card "game" at HBS (everyone goes out for a super fancy meal and they draw one credit card to pay for it).   

That's different, though.  Presumably, you will go out enough so that everyone ends up paying once.  And you have to be able to afford to pay in case you are chosen.  The article is talking about mooching friends and family, which definitely exist.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 23, 2007, 02:34:46 PM
I actually think this issue is worse for minorities who are expected to have everyone share our successses
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on June 23, 2007, 02:40:57 PM
I actually think this issue is worse for minorities who are expected to have everyone share our successses

Yeah, that does seem to be a problem.  I have no problem not giving people my money (except the parents, if they should ever need it), but I realize some people feel compelled to do so or to basically support family members.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 23, 2007, 02:49:03 PM
I actually think this issue is worse for minorities who are expected to have everyone share our successses

Yeah, that does seem to be a problem.  I have no problem not giving people my money (except the parents, if they should ever need it), but I realize some people feel compelled to do so or to basically support family members.

I can definitely foresee being hit up for money once I start working(heck I already have been with rather limited cash flow).  it will be interesting managing those expectations with actually wanting to see those family members do well. 
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Gengiswump on June 23, 2007, 03:01:00 PM
I actually think this issue is worse for minorities who are expected to have everyone share our successses

Yeah, that does seem to be a problem.  I have no problem not giving people my money (except the parents, if they should ever need it), but I realize some people feel compelled to do so or to basically support family members.

You'll be surprised to know I also have no problem not giving people my money.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 23, 2007, 03:04:30 PM
I guess I'm the only one
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: pikey on June 23, 2007, 03:42:48 PM
I actually think this issue is worse for minorities who are expected to have everyone share our successses

Yeah, that does seem to be a problem.  I have no problem not giving people my money (except the parents, if they should ever need it), but I realize some people feel compelled to do so or to basically support family members.

You'll be surprised to know I also have no problem not giving people my money.

cosigned.  I'll treat my grandparents to lunch or dinner, occaisionally parents, siblings, or younger cousins.  Other than that, we going dutch.  In fact, I've learned that I should order wine if everyone is, otherwise, I'm just subsidising their alcohol.  :P
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: 2Lacoste on June 25, 2007, 08:13:21 AM
Yeah, my boys have already tried to hit me up for money -- and tried to lie about what they really need it for. Sad part is, I'd give you money for booze or because you owe somebody money and they're coming for your kneecaps if you don't pay up.  But don't call me and be like, "Yo, lacoste, my car broke down and..."

Negro please.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 26, 2007, 10:30:43 AM
New Home Sales Fall in May for Fourth Month, Further Proof of Housing Slump


WASHINGTON (AP) -- Sales of new homes fell in May for the fourth time in the past five months, providing further evidence of a continued slump in housing.
The Commerce Department reported Tuesday that sales of new single-family homes dropped by 1.6 percent last month to a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 915,000 units. That followed a 12.5 percent surge in April sales, which was the biggest one-month jump in more than a decade.
 
 
But the April increase, which analysts believe was heavily influenced by special factors such as the weather, marked the only strength this year. In every other month, sales have fallen as builders struggle to deal with the most serious downturn in housing in 16 years.

The median price of a new home sold in April was $236,100, down 0.9 percent from the price a year ago. The median is the midpoint where half the homes sold for more and half for less.

The slump in sales affected most parts of the country. Sales were down 7.3 percent in the South, where half of new homes are sold, and fell an even larger 11 percent in the Northeast. Sales were also off in the West by 1.9 percent. The only region of the country that saw an increase was the Midwest, where sales jumped by 30.8 percent.

Home prices are expected to fall further in coming months as builders slash prices more to trim a glut of unsold homes in the face of deepening troubles in housing. The National Association of Home Builders reported last week that builder confidence has fallen to the lowest level in 16 years.

The troubles in housing follow a prolonged boom in which sales of both new and existing homes set records for five consecutive years. That ended in 2006 as investors, who had been lured into the market by soaring home prices, began to retreat in the face of rising mortgage rates and slumping prices, especially in the once red-hot markets.

Adding to the problems are spreading problems in mortgage lending, reflected by rising foreclosure rates as borrowers are unable to meet payments on adjustable rate loans which are now resetting at higher rates.

The inventory of unsold homes did drop by 1.1 percent May to 536,000 units but because the sales pace slowed, the length of time it would take to deplete inventories actually rose to 7.1 months, up from 7.0 months in April.

The decline in new home sales followed a report Monday that showed sales of existing homes, which make up more than four-fifths of home sales, fell for a third straight month in May to a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 5.99 million units. The median price of an existing home dropped to $223,700, down by 2.1 percent from a year ago. It was the 10th consecutive fall in prices compared to a year ago, the longest stretch on record.

The overall economy slowed to an anemic growth rate of 0.6 percent in the first three months of this year, the slowest in more than four years, but Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke has said that he believes the economy will rebound in coming months despite the fact that the housing slowdown is lasting longer than the Fed had expected.

Many analysts believe that growth in the current April-June quarter will come in at a more respectable 3.5 percent rate even though they say that the drag from housing should last for the rest of this year.


Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 26, 2007, 10:38:24 AM
when will the housing market crash?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on June 26, 2007, 11:09:34 AM
folks need to stop building and focus on selling what's already been built...
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 26, 2007, 04:06:38 PM
How do they classify the west vs. the midwest?

West--Mountain and pacific standard?
Midwest--Northwest terrorities and CST?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 26, 2007, 04:07:17 PM
folks need to stop building and focus on selling what's already been built...

nah--the housing market is inflated and needs to be brought down
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 26, 2007, 06:19:35 PM
Student Loan Overhaul Advances
Votes Expected By House, Senate

By Amit R. Paley
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, June 21, 2007; A01



Democrats in Congress are pushing to overhaul the nation's student loan system with legislation that would cut federal subsidies to lending companies by as much as $19 billion, channel most of those savings to student aid and ease repayment rules for borrowers.

The Senate education committee overwhelmingly approved its version of the legislation yesterday, one week after the House education panel took similar action. Senior Democrats predicted that the bills would come to a vote by the end of next month and would be reconciled without significant difficulty.

Momentum for the legislation has grown this year as the $85 billion-a-year industry has come under intense scrutiny. Federal and state investigations have found conflicts of interest among lenders, universities and government regulators. In addition, the Democratic takeover of Congress this year has allowed the party to drive its agenda on student loans for the first time in more than a decade.

"This legislation will help reverse the crisis in college affordability," said Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.), chairman of the education committee. "It will restore balance to our broken student loan system by reducing unnecessary lender subsidies."

The House and Senate measures differ in several respects, but both propose a sweeping overhaul of federal student loan programs. The Senate version would cut subsidies to lenders by $18.3 billion; the House version would cut subsidies by about $19 billion. The bills would direct up to $1 billion to deficit reduction and put the rest of the money into student aid.

The proposals would have borrowers pay no more than 15 percent of their discretionary income for federally backed student loans. They would allow such loans to be forgiven after about 25 years. The Senate measure would gradually boost the maximum Pell grant, the nation's main aid program for low-income students, from $4,300 to $5,400 a year. The House plan calls for a smaller grant increase but would cut in half the interest rates on federally backed student loans, to 3.4 percent.

"This is the biggest single investment in college financial aid since the GI Bill," said Rep. George Miller (D-Calif.), the House education chairman.

Student loan companies attacked the legislation and said subsidy cuts would reduce benefits to borrowers. Lenders also said the reductions would force some companies out of the market.

"The budget cuts would make student loans uneconomical for lenders," Kevin Bruns, executive director of America's Student Loan Providers, an industry group, said in a statement. "One would have to suspend the law of economics to believe these cuts won't be passed on to students and parents in some fashion."

But Miller said in an interview that lenders have told lawmakers privately that they could accept the subsidy cuts, which are about the same as reductions President Bush proposed in his budget this year.

Many Democrats have long decried subsidies to the lending industry as a waste of taxpayer dollars and have promoted direct lending by the government to students. Republicans have generally sided with the lending industry, contending that the companies bring needed competition to the market.

But several key Republicans yesterday supported the Democratic legislation. The Senate committee approved the measure on a 17 to 3 vote, with six of 10 Republicans in favor, including the ranking member, Sen. Mike Enzi (Wyo.).

The partisan split was more pronounced in the House education panel, which approved its bill 30 to 16. Rep. Howard P. "Buck" McKeon (Calif.), the committee's ranking Republican, said he could not support such large subsidy cuts on top of those enacted in a previous Congress.

"The concern is that as we drive lenders out of the business, the ones that are going to be hurt the most are the students that need the help the most," McKeon said last week. He also criticized Democrats for cutting interest rates for graduates instead of directing savings to financial aid for students in college.

White House spokesman Scott Stanzel said the administration was "encouraged by the desire of Congress to follow the president's commitment to focus more federal dollars to students most in need."

Both bills would launch a significant initiative that could lead to a revamping of the loan program. They would create pilot "loan auctions" in which companies would bid to participate in the federal loan program by stating the lowest subsidies they would accept from the government.

Student loan companies oppose the auction proposal and said it would create instability in the industry. But supporters said loan auctions would allow the market to determine subsidy rates instead of having Congress set them arbitrarily. The money saved would then be passed on to students.

"Lenders should compete against each other to participate in the federal student loan program," Kennedy said.

The Senate measure would bar lenders from offering gifts and perks to financial aid officers and prohibit other practices uncovered in investigations led by congressional Democrats and New York Attorney General Andrew M. Cuomo (D). The House overwhelmingly approved a similar bill last month.

Senate Majority Leader Harry M. Reid (D-Nev.) expects to bring the student loan bill to the floor in July, said spokesman Jim Manley. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) also plans to bring the legislation to a vote by the end of July, Miller said.

The legislation is protected by a procedural maneuver known as budget reconciliation. That means it does not face the threat of a Senate filibuster, which would require 60 votes to overcome.

Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on June 26, 2007, 07:12:40 PM
Hot!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on June 27, 2007, 12:36:34 AM
that's a given..but i also believe that considering the market..the desire to "build" needs to decrease.. all of these new homes are lowering property values of existing homes

folks need to stop building and focus on selling what's already been built...

nah--the housing market is inflated and needs to be brought down
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 27, 2007, 08:17:56 AM
that's a given..but i also believe that considering the market..the desire to "build" needs to decrease.. all of these new homes are lowering property values of existing homes
folks need to stop building and focus on selling what's already been built...

nah--the housing market is inflated and needs to be brought down

as a potential buyer in the next few years, I like that.  of course if you are a homeowner trying to sell that would suck.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on June 27, 2007, 08:25:28 AM
folks need to stop building and focus on selling what's already been built...

nah--the housing market is inflated and needs to be brought down

Is it just me, or are those the same statements...
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: pikey on June 27, 2007, 08:28:57 AM
folks need to stop building and focus on selling what's already been built...

nah--the housing market is inflated and needs to be brought down

Is it just me, or are those the same statements...

Nope, Blk is implying that the housing mkt is ok, and the building is deflating the mkt, so they should stop building.  OSA thinks the mkt is inflated, so the building is good because its helping to bring prices down to a more realistic value.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 27, 2007, 08:29:31 AM
folks need to stop building and focus on selling what's already been built...

nah--the housing market is inflated and needs to be brought down

Is it just me, or are those the same statements...
folks need to stop building and focus on selling what's already been built...

nah--the housing market is inflated and needs to be brought down

Is it just me, or are those the same statements...

Nope, Blk is implying that the housing mkt is ok, and the building is deflating the mkt, so they should stop building.  OSA thinks the mkt is inflated, so the building is good because its helping to bring prices down to a more realistic value.

Correct!  :-*
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on June 27, 2007, 08:31:11 AM
folks need to stop building and focus on selling what's already been built...

nah--the housing market is inflated and needs to be brought down

Is it just me, or are those the same statements...

Nope, Blk is implying that the housing mkt is ok, and the building is deflating the mkt, so they should stop building.  OSA thinks the mkt is inflated, so the building is good because its helping to bring prices down to a more realistic value.

Ah, I assumed "housing market" meant the number of houses, not the prices; it was ambiguous.  But the number of houses is inflated, so I agree with blk...we don't need more housing.

Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 27, 2007, 08:32:36 AM
folks need to stop building and focus on selling what's already been built...

nah--the housing market is inflated and needs to be brought down

Is it just me, or are those the same statements...

Nope, Blk is implying that the housing mkt is ok, and the building is deflating the mkt, so they should stop building.  OSA thinks the mkt is inflated, so the building is good because its helping to bring prices down to a more realistic value.

Ah, I assumed "housing market" meant the number of houses, not the prices; it was ambiguous.  But the number of houses is inflated, so I agree with blk...we don't need more housing.



We don't *need* more.  It is just nice to have options. 

Woot! cheap houses!  Woot!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on June 27, 2007, 08:36:13 AM
folks need to stop building and focus on selling what's already been built...

nah--the housing market is inflated and needs to be brought down

Is it just me, or are those the same statements...

Nope, Blk is implying that the housing mkt is ok, and the building is deflating the mkt, so they should stop building.  OSA thinks the mkt is inflated, so the building is good because its helping to bring prices down to a more realistic value.

Ah, I assumed "housing market" meant the number of houses, not the prices; it was ambiguous.  But the number of houses is inflated, so I agree with blk...we don't need more housing.



We don't *need* more.  It is just nice to have options. 

Woot! cheap houses!  Woot!

Lol can't say I disagree with that.  I need the market to deflate for another couple of years or so.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: pikey on June 27, 2007, 08:41:28 AM
folks need to stop building and focus on selling what's already been built...

nah--the housing market is inflated and needs to be brought down

Is it just me, or are those the same statements...

Nope, Blk is implying that the housing mkt is ok, and the building is deflating the mkt, so they should stop building.  OSA thinks the mkt is inflated, so the building is good because its helping to bring prices down to a more realistic value.

Ah, I assumed "housing market" meant the number of houses, not the prices; it was ambiguous.  But the number of houses is inflated, so I agree with blk...we don't need more housing.



We don't *need* more.  It is just nice to have options. 

Woot! cheap houses!  Woot!

Lol can't say I disagree with that.  I need the market to deflate for another couple of years or so.

Try living in Bermuda, where the average price for a modest 2 bdr is $950,000.  Last year, the average price for a stand alone house was $1.6 million.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 27, 2007, 08:43:09 AM
:o dang
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on June 27, 2007, 08:44:34 AM
OSA is having too much fun with the scrolling text

lame-o :P
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on June 27, 2007, 08:45:33 AM
Try living in Bermuda, where the average price for a modest 2 bdr is $950,000.  Last year, the average price for a stand alone house was $1.6 million.

Hmm, I don't think that's any worse than NYC.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: pikey on June 27, 2007, 08:47:10 AM
Try living in Bermuda, where the average price for a modest 2 bdr is $950,000.  Last year, the average price for a stand alone house was $1.6 million.

Hmm, I don't think that's any worse than NYC.

But in NYC you have the option of living i the boroughs, Connecticut, etc.  In Bermuda, you live in Bermuda.  Plus, where I live is a 1 hr drive to work in rush hour anyway, so it's not like I have the convenience of a short commute.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on June 27, 2007, 08:48:21 AM
Try living in Bermuda, where the average price for a modest 2 bdr is $950,000.  Last year, the average price for a stand alone house was $1.6 million.

Hmm, I don't think that's any worse than NYC.

But in NYC you have the option of living i the boroughs, Connecticut, etc.  In Bermuda, you live in Bermuda.  Plus, where I live is a 1 hr drive to work in rush hour anyway, so it's not like I have the convenience of a short commute.

You can drive an hour one way in Bermuda ???

ETA: Oh, and do they have public transport there?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: pikey on June 27, 2007, 08:49:58 AM
Try living in Bermuda, where the average price for a modest 2 bdr is $950,000.  Last year, the average price for a stand alone house was $1.6 million.

Hmm, I don't think that's any worse than NYC.

But in NYC you have the option of living i the boroughs, Connecticut, etc.  In Bermuda, you live in Bermuda.  Plus, where I live is a 1 hr drive to work in rush hour anyway, so it's not like I have the convenience of a short commute.

You can drive an hour in Bermuda ???

And it's less than a 15 miles drive!  Re-damn-diculous.  That's how bad traffic is, because everyone is essentially driving to the same place.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on June 27, 2007, 08:50:33 AM
or refinance...I guarantee that you won't like that once you buy.. it's definitely a buyers market.. but most sellers (or builders) offer seller's contributions.. I just closed a deal where the builder contributed 25k towards the home

continuing to build new homes isn't doing anything for the market considering the fact that there are many vacant new homes.. my builder just sold the model home on my block..and I've been here for 3 yrs...


that's a given..but i also believe that considering the market..the desire to "build" needs to decrease.. all of these new homes are lowering property values of existing homes
folks need to stop building and focus on selling what's already been built...

nah--the housing market is inflated and needs to be brought down

as a potential buyer in the next few years, I like that.  of course if you are a homeowner trying to sell that would suck.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on June 27, 2007, 08:51:36 AM
yeah i was referring to # of homes.. not the prices of them.. esp considering the fact that you can get a 2400 sq ft home here for 169k

folks need to stop building and focus on selling what's already been built...

nah--the housing market is inflated and needs to be brought down

Is it just me, or are those the same statements...

Nope, Blk is implying that the housing mkt is ok, and the building is deflating the mkt, so they should stop building.  OSA thinks the mkt is inflated, so the building is good because its helping to bring prices down to a more realistic value.

Ah, I assumed "housing market" meant the number of houses, not the prices; it was ambiguous.  But the number of houses is inflated, so I agree with blk...we don't need more housing.


Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on June 27, 2007, 08:52:52 AM
now that sounds like Houston lol
Try living in Bermuda, where the average price for a modest 2 bdr is $950,000.  Last year, the average price for a stand alone house was $1.6 million.

Hmm, I don't think that's any worse than NYC.

But in NYC you have the option of living i the boroughs, Connecticut, etc.  In Bermuda, you live in Bermuda.  Plus, where I live is a 1 hr drive to work in rush hour anyway, so it's not like I have the convenience of a short commute.

You can drive an hour in Bermuda ???

And it's less than a 15 miles drive!  Re-damn-diculous.  That's how bad traffic is, because everyone is essentially driving to the same place.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 27, 2007, 08:59:44 AM
OSA is having too much fun with the scrolling text

lame-o :P

hmm smells like hate
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 28, 2007, 04:40:50 PM
High earners can still struggle

By Stephanie Armour, USA TODAY
The car payment was due. Creditors kept calling. Every single credit card was at its maximum.
Steve and Nicole Brown could barely scrape by living paycheck to paycheck, but they never expected to find themselves in such perilous financial shape. As probation officers, the Balch Springs, Texas, couple earn $80,000 a year. Like many, they believed surviving without savings shouldn't happen to someone in their income bracket.

But it did. Medical costs for their son, Kobe, 4, who has asthma, along with student loans from college, led the Browns into debt. Today, they are on a plan to be debt free by 2008 and are curbing recreational spending, but their story mirrors the predicament facing many Americans who are middle- and high-wage earners but still living paycheck-to-paycheck, stretching to make ends meet despite earning salaries that are near — or above — six figures.

Nearly one in five workers who earn $100,000 or more report they often or always live paycheck to paycheck, according to a recent survey by Harris Interactive for CareerBuilder, an online job site. Although 18% save $1,000 or more per month, 30% save $250 or less. CareerBuilder is owned in part by Gannett, which publishes USA TODAY.

"I was worried," says Steve, 34, who went to a credit counselor to consolidate his debt and develop a plan to begin saving. "I was maxing credit cards, and I knew I couldn't keep up. You can make $300,000 and still be in debt."

For those who earn a middle-to-high income, there is an additional stigma to subsisting without savings or accumulating insurmountable debt. Many of those in this income bracket believe they should be able to handle their finances and fear the disapproval of others who may view them as reckless spenders, say credit advisers such as Gail Cunningham, vice president of business relations at Consumer Credit Counseling Service of Greater Dallas.

Living on the edge

Eighteen percent of employees earning $100,000 could continue their lifestyle for one month or less if they lost their income, according to a new survey by Discover Financial Services. And 12% of these high earners say they have no money left over after paying debts.

"Financial pressures can cause stress-related illness, impact your work performance and productivity and limit your opportunities to make career changes," says Susan Wilson Solovic, author of Reinvent Your Career: Attain the Success You Desire and Deserve, in an e-mail. "Sadly, I've seen a number of situations where affluent families have had to file bankruptcy because of a lack of fiscal management."

Many struggle with the concern about what others might think. Rich Goldsmith, 30, of Minneapolis, is a public relations executive who earns a solid middle-income salary. But his money goes to pay for his car, his mortgage and a home equity line of credit, plus paying for his son's activities. His son, Zak, is 10, and Goldsmith has him every other weekend, holidays and the summer.

As interest rates creep up, he is paying more on his equity line. Rising gas prices, he says, have also eaten into his pay. "Any time you run into an unexpected problem, it's hard," Goldsmith says. "I'm surviving, I get by. The brutal thing is that once you get behind, you're done."

Top reasons for problems

Financial experts such as Cunningham point to a host of reasons for the predicament facing higher-wage earners with no savings, although she says that overspending remains the top culprit. Among them:

•Higher costs for housing. The surge in housing costs has led employees to devote a larger percentage of their income toward their mortgages. From 2004 to 2005, median incomes rose just 1.1% to $46,326, according to the Census Bureau.

Meanwhile, in just one year, the number of households with housing cost burdens greater than 30% of income climbed by 2.3 million, hitting a record 37.3 million in 2005, according to a report by the Joint Center for Housing Studies at Harvard University.

The result: The pressures of high housing costs are moving up the income scale.

A growing number of homeowners also have taken on adjustable-rate loans, whose interest rates can rise after a set period. This has allowed some higher earners to buy homes they may not otherwise have been able to afford. But for those living paycheck to paycheck, an uptick in monthly housing costs can have a painful effect.

The Mortgage Bankers Association reports that adjustable-rate mortgages grew from 13% of all originations in mid-2003 to 35% in mid-2005.

•Tuition costs. At the same time, employees are borrowing for investments in education — a cost that is also soaring. The College Board reports that, at four-year public colleges, tuition and fees are up 35% from five years ago, after adjusting for inflation.

Tuition and fee charges at four-year public colleges averaged $5,836 in the 2006-07 academic year, according to the report. That was a $344 increase over the previous year. The average total for tuition, fees and room and board charges for in-state students at public institutions was $12,796. At private four-year colleges, the average cost was $22,218.

•Mounting debt. Many high-wage earners who live paycheck to paycheck are simply overspending and using credit cards or other debt sources to sustain their lifestyle. High-income households, on average, spend more of their income on food away from home, entertainment, clothing and services, according to data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

"There is an overspending issue, without a doubt," says David Jones, president of the Association of Independent Consumer Credit Counseling Agencies. "They are doctors, lawyers. They have more disposable income and, very often, they get into trouble."

Finding a way out

There can be a way out. Tonya Talley, 38, is an obstetrics nurse in Ardmore, Okla. Together, she and her husband, Robert, earn about $135,000 a year. Ten years ago, she owned a home and a car and was raising three kids, but she also had credit card debt of about $18,000 — much of it racked up after a divorce. It took years to pay it off.

She was using credit cards to pay household bills, she says. So she consolidated her debts and worked out a payment plan, which lowered the interest rate she was paying. Today, the debt is gone.

"Emotionally, it was getting very tough on me. I just knew I was barely paying minimum balances and taking cash advances," Talley says. "But I quit using (credit cards) completely. You can pay yourself out."
 
http://www.usatoday.com/money/2007-06-28-paycheck-usat_N.htm
 
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 28, 2007, 04:41:56 PM
I know Miss P doesn't feel bad for them, but I do (well...for some of them).  And I bet a good chunk of that 18% living from paycheck to paycheck is POC.

ETA: of course some of them are hot messes buying iphones on loan money ::cough, cough::  ;)  :D
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on June 28, 2007, 04:45:05 PM
I really don't see why it's so hard for people to make a budget and not to spend more than they can afford.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 28, 2007, 04:51:18 PM
I really don't see why it's so hard for people to make a budget and not to spend more than they can afford.
I agree with you generally, but did you read the article?---hard to budget for unexpected illnesses, job losses, price fluctuations etc.  Certainly most of these people are just wildin out because they lack training/impulse control.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on June 28, 2007, 04:53:48 PM
these ppl need to do Oprah's Debt Diet...

Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on June 28, 2007, 04:56:13 PM
I really don't see why it's so hard for people to make a budget and not to spend more than they can afford.
I agree with you generally, but did you read the article?---hard to budget for unexpected illnesses, job losses, price fluctuations etc.

Yeah but they should have thought about that before buying the big house, fancy car, etc.  Don't get so much that you're not able to put money away.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 28, 2007, 04:56:17 PM
these ppl need to do Oprah's Debt Diet...



http://www.oprah.com/money/debtdiet/steps/debtdiet_steps_main.jhtml
looks interesting.  have you tried it?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 28, 2007, 04:59:00 PM
I really don't see why it's so hard for people to make a budget and not to spend more than they can afford.
I agree with you generally, but did you read the article?---hard to budget for unexpected illnesses, job losses, price fluctuations etc.

Yeah but they should have thought about that before buying the big house, fancy car, etc.  Don't get so much that you're not able to put money away.

You are preaching to the converted, but people generally don't plan ahead.  This is why most people don't have nearly enough saved for retirement and have to be walmart greeters.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on June 28, 2007, 04:59:24 PM
these ppl need to do Oprah's Debt Diet...



http://www.oprah.com/money/debtdiet/steps/debtdiet_steps_main.jhtml
looks interesting.  have you tried it?

no...i don't have debt and have excellent saving habits  :D

but i did see the 5 part special with the recurring families and it was very good...and a lot of those ppl got into debt by trying to impress ppl and live beyond their means which is retarded.

I really don't see why it's so hard for people to make a budget and not to spend more than they can afford.
I agree with you generally, but did you read the article?---hard to budget for unexpected illnesses, job losses, price fluctuations etc.

Yeah but they should have thought about that before buying the big house, fancy car, etc.  Don't get so much that you're not able to put money away.

agreed
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: LadyKD on June 28, 2007, 05:00:04 PM
these ppl need to do Oprah's Debt Diet...



http://www.oprah.com/money/debtdiet/steps/debtdiet_steps_main.jhtml
looks interesting.  have you tried it?

no...i don't have debt and have excellent saving habits  :D

but i did see the 5 part special with the recurring families and it was very good...and a lot of those ppl got into debt by trying to impress ppl and live beyond their means which is retarded.

I really don't see why it's so hard for people to make a budget and not to spend more than they can afford.
I agree with you generally, but did you read the article?---hard to budget for unexpected illnesses, job losses, price fluctuations etc.

Yeah but they should have thought about that before buying the big house, fancy car, etc.  Don't get so much that you're not able to put money away.

agreed

Totally clueless
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on June 28, 2007, 05:01:38 PM
these ppl need to do Oprah's Debt Diet...



http://www.oprah.com/money/debtdiet/steps/debtdiet_steps_main.jhtml
looks interesting.  have you tried it?

no...i don't have debt and have excellent saving habits  :D

but i did see the 5 part special with the recurring families and it was very good...and a lot of those ppl got into debt by trying to impress ppl and live beyond their means which is retarded.

I really don't see why it's so hard for people to make a budget and not to spend more than they can afford.
I agree with you generally, but did you read the article?---hard to budget for unexpected illnesses, job losses, price fluctuations etc.

Yeah but they should have thought about that before buying the big house, fancy car, etc.  Don't get so much that you're not able to put money away.

agreed

Totally clueless

me?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: LadyKD on June 28, 2007, 05:06:04 PM
Actually, I would reference that clueless statement to all of the comments.It seems to me that if you are 20something, living on student loans, and with only yourself and or pet to support. How can you judge the behaviors of someone who is in a situation you have no clue about?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 28, 2007, 05:06:42 PM
Actually, I would reference that clueless statement to all of the comments.It seems to me that if you are 20something, living on student loans, and with only yourself and or pet to support. How can you judge the behaviors of someone who is in a situation you have no clue about?

ok you are wildin' out.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on June 28, 2007, 05:08:39 PM
Actually, I would reference that clueless statement to all of the comments.It seems to me that if you are 20something, living on student loans, and with only yourself and or pet to support. How can you judge the behaviors of someone who is in a situation you have no clue about?

it's one thing to live off of loans bc you are a law student and can't really work...it's another to have a good job yet not even think so save money for a rainy day--i would think that would be common sense.  the article said that some ppl were in debt bc of trying to keep up appearances--what sense does that make?  to dig yourself further into debt bc you want to stunt like you have money?  one would think that someone who does have a family to support would know better.


Actually, I would reference that clueless statement to all of the comments.It seems to me that if you are 20something, living on student loans, and with only yourself and or pet to support. How can you judge the behaviors of someone who is in a situation you have no clue about?

ok you are wildin' out.

for once, i agree with osa
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on June 28, 2007, 05:10:20 PM
Yeah I sensed an "oh lawd" coming on.  I am not ashamed to say that people should engage in more planning, whether that's in deciding to have a child, buy a house, buy a car, take a vacation, whatever.  If that offends you, I'm sorry...but it should be said more.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: LadyKD on June 28, 2007, 05:12:39 PM
Actually, I would reference that clueless statement to all of the comments.It seems to me that if you are 20something, living on student loans, and with only yourself and or pet to support. How can you judge the behaviors of someone who is in a situation you have no clue about?

ok you are wildin' out.

How so?  
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: LadyKD on June 28, 2007, 05:14:22 PM
First I am not being combative.. I guess in a way I am passing a judgement on you folks kind of the same judgement you passed on the folks in this article.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on June 28, 2007, 05:17:50 PM
do you disagree with what we've said?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: LadyKD on June 28, 2007, 05:21:53 PM
I agree that you are all clueless and passed judgement on a situation you have very limited knowledge about. Yes that family overspent...but I didnt read they had a huge fancy house or car. I do agree with the one statement that no one can plan for unexpected events.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on June 28, 2007, 05:28:10 PM
for once I have to disagree...and I'll speak from experience.. I've lived off a six figure income for close to 3 yrs now  so I've had the experience as the somewhat broke college student as well as the experiences of a newly employed well paid individual..and I have taught myself how to maximize that six figure income and live off of half (or less than half) of my salary...

the problem with the people in the article is that they were foolish.. the fact that they lived in Spring TX (which is a Houston suburb) lets me know that they could have easily purchased a nice (old or new) home for less than $200,000 (which would clearly give them a lower mortgage payment if their credit is in order) I'm going to assume that they didn't put any money down towards the purchase of the home but even with 100% financing at a Prime rate of 6.35% their payments would be $1244.47 a month without escrow ... a person should NEVER buy more house than they can afford...

If there are student loans then one can definitely budget for that as well as other expenses without being house-poor on a 6 figure income..

if the article was referring to people that were living off of 1 income with dependents making between 40-70k then I'd have more compassion..esp if there are student loans involved

but the reality is that people (black folk more specifically) attempt to live FAR beyond their means for whatever reason...

I don't think there's a way to plan ahead for every possible thing but more people need to think about their goals... whether they are children..real estate...early retirement whatever..plan accordingly.. while it is true that some learn later than others it certainly isn't too late to undo what's already been done...which is one of the reasons that I've incorporated credit counseling into my Nonprofit org..



First I am not being combative.. I guess in a way I am passing a judgement on you folks kind of the same judgement you passed on the folks in this article.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on June 28, 2007, 05:29:27 PM
you can say we are clueless but anyone with common sense should know to save money IN CASE something unexpected happens (illness, job loss, etc) especially if you have dependents.  and the article clearly stated that some ppl get into a financial mess bc of trying to stunt--i don't feel bad for them at all and they are the clueless ones.

for once I have to disagree...and I'll speak from experience.. I've lived off a six figure income for close to 3 yrs now  so I've had the experience as the somewhat broke college student as well as the experiences of a newly employed well paid individual..and I have taught myself how to maximize that six figure income and live off of half (or less than half) of my salary...

the problem with the people in the article is that they were foolish.. the fact that they lived in Spring TX (which is a Houston suburb) lets me know that they could have easily purchased a nice (old or new) home for less than $200,000 (which would clearly give them a lower mortgage payment if their credit is in order) I'm going to assume that they didn't put any money down towards the purchase of the home but even with 100% financing at a Prime rate of 6.35% their payments would be $1244.47 a month without escrow ... a person should NEVER buy more house than they can afford...

If there are student loans then one can definitely budget for that as well as other expenses without being house-poor on a 6 figure income..

if the article was referring to people that were living off of 1 income with dependents making between 40-70k then I'd have more compassion..esp if there are student loans involved

but the reality is that people (black folk more specifically) attempt to live FAR beyond their means for whatever reason...

I don't think there's a way to plan ahead for every possible thing but more people need to think about their goals... whether they are children..real estate...early retirement whatever..plan accordingly.. while it is true that some learn later than others it certainly isn't too late to undo what's already been done...which is one of the reasons that I've incorporated credit counseling into my Nonprofit org..



First I am not being combative.. I guess in a way I am passing a judgement on you folks kind of the same judgement you passed on the folks in this article.

agree
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on June 28, 2007, 05:30:06 PM
I agree that you are all clueless and passed judgement on a situation you have very limited knowledge about. Yes that family overspent...but I didnt read they had a huge fancy house or car. I do agree with the one statement that no one can plan for unexpected events.

Well they overspent on something, didn't they?  House and cars are just the usual suspects.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on June 28, 2007, 05:32:05 PM
for once I have to disagree...and I'll speak from experience.. I've lived off a six figure income for close to 3 yrs now  so I've had the experience as the somewhat broke college student as well as the experiences of a newly employed well paid individual..and I have taught myself how to maximize that six figure income and live off of half (or less than half) of my salary...

the problem with the people in the article is that they were foolish.. the fact that they lived in Spring TX (which is a Houston suburb) lets me know that they could have easily purchased a nice (old or new) home for less than $200,000 (which would clearly give them a lower mortgage payment if their credit is in order) I'm going to assume that they didn't put any money down towards the purchase of the home but even with 100% financing at a Prime rate of 6.35% their payments would be $1244.47 a month without escrow ... a person should NEVER buy more house than they can afford...

If there are student loans then one can definitely budget for that as well as other expenses without being house-poor on a 6 figure income..

if the article was referring to people that were living off of 1 income with dependents making between 40-70k then I'd have more compassion..esp if there are student loans involved

but the reality is that people (black folk more specifically) attempt to live FAR beyond their means for whatever reason...

I don't think there's a way to plan ahead for every possible thing but more people need to think about their goals... whether they are children..real estate...early retirement whatever..plan accordingly.. while it is true that some learn later than others it certainly isn't too late to undo what's already been done...which is one of the reasons that I've incorporated credit counseling into my Nonprofit org..



First I am not being combative.. I guess in a way I am passing a judgement on you folks kind of the same judgement you passed on the folks in this article.

titcr
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: LadyKD on June 28, 2007, 05:45:38 PM
you can say we are clueless but anyone with common sense should know to save money IN CASE something unexpected happens (illness, job loss, etc) especially if you have dependents.  and the article clearly stated that some ppl get into a financial mess bc of trying to stunt--i don't feel bad for them at all and they are the clueless ones.

for once I have to disagree...and I'll speak from experience.. I've lived off a six figure income for close to 3 yrs now  so I've had the experience as the somewhat broke college student as well as the experiences of a newly employed well paid individual..and I have taught myself how to maximize that six figure income and live off of half (or less than half) of my salary...

the problem with the people in the article is that they were foolish.. the fact that they lived in Spring TX (which is a Houston suburb) lets me know that they could have easily purchased a nice (old or new) home for less than $200,000 (which would clearly give them a lower mortgage payment if their credit is in order) I'm going to assume that they didn't put any money down towards the purchase of the home but even with 100% financing at a Prime rate of 6.35% their payments would be $1244.47 a month without escrow ... a person should NEVER buy more house than they can afford...

If there are student loans then one can definitely budget for that as well as other expenses without being house-poor on a 6 figure income..

if the article was referring to people that were living off of 1 income with dependents making between 40-70k then I'd have more compassion..esp if there are student loans involved

but the reality is that people (black folk more specifically) attempt to live FAR beyond their means for whatever reason...

I don't think there's a way to plan ahead for every possible thing but more people need to think about their goals... whether they are children..real estate...early retirement whatever..plan accordingly.. while it is true that some learn later than others it certainly isn't too late to undo what's already been done...which is one of the reasons that I've incorporated credit counseling into my Nonprofit org..



First I am not being combative.. I guess in a way I am passing a judgement on you folks kind of the same judgement you passed on the folks in this article.

agree


It said some ppl didnt say these people..I mean I know people who went from six-figure salaries lived in modest homes with mortages they could afford and were not overspending. Just working executives paying school tuitions fees for their children(private and college) had savings and health insurance, and then they lose their jobs. Even with a severance package, it takes adjusting and Cobra is a joke...so when the dust cleared I watched some very responsible people march off to CCCS for assistance.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: LadyKD on June 28, 2007, 05:50:10 PM
At know point do I disagree that people can overspend I mean at some point in our lives we all do but to make judgement calls and generalizations come on...
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Special Agent Dana Scully on June 28, 2007, 05:54:56 PM
you can say we are clueless but anyone with common sense should know to save money IN CASE something unexpected happens (illness, job loss, etc) especially if you have dependents.  and the article clearly stated that some ppl get into a financial mess bc of trying to stunt--i don't feel bad for them at all and they are the clueless ones.

for once I have to disagree...and I'll speak from experience.. I've lived off a six figure income for close to 3 yrs now  so I've had the experience as the somewhat broke college student as well as the experiences of a newly employed well paid individual..and I have taught myself how to maximize that six figure income and live off of half (or less than half) of my salary...

the problem with the people in the article is that they were foolish.. the fact that they lived in Spring TX (which is a Houston suburb) lets me know that they could have easily purchased a nice (old or new) home for less than $200,000 (which would clearly give them a lower mortgage payment if their credit is in order) I'm going to assume that they didn't put any money down towards the purchase of the home but even with 100% financing at a Prime rate of 6.35% their payments would be $1244.47 a month without escrow ... a person should NEVER buy more house than they can afford...

If there are student loans then one can definitely budget for that as well as other expenses without being house-poor on a 6 figure income..

if the article was referring to people that were living off of 1 income with dependents making between 40-70k then I'd have more compassion..esp if there are student loans involved

but the reality is that people (black folk more specifically) attempt to live FAR beyond their means for whatever reason...

I don't think there's a way to plan ahead for every possible thing but more people need to think about their goals... whether they are children..real estate...early retirement whatever..plan accordingly.. while it is true that some learn later than others it certainly isn't too late to undo what's already been done...which is one of the reasons that I've incorporated credit counseling into my Nonprofit org..



First I am not being combative.. I guess in a way I am passing a judgement on you folks kind of the same judgement you passed on the folks in this article.

agree


It said some ppl didnt say these people..I mean I know people who went from six-figure salaries lived in modest homes with mortages they could afford and were not overspending. Just working executives paying school tuitions fees for their children(private and college) had savings and health insurance, and then they lose their jobs. Even with a severance package, it takes adjusting and Cobra is a joke...so when the dust cleared I watched some very responsible people march off to CCCS for assistance.

that makes sense tho
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 28, 2007, 06:51:42 PM
I do not take back a single thing I've said.  Namely, life events happen that alter some families' course and some people wild out.  We could all do a better job in planning ahead.  I don't appreciate your holier than though attitude when I think my comments were fairly reasonable.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on June 28, 2007, 07:01:49 PM
I do not take back a single thing I've said.  Namely, life events happen that alter some families courses and some people Wild out.  We could all do a better job in planning ahead.  I don't appreciate your holier than though attitude when I think my comments were fairly reasonable.

titcr.  Planning ahead could solve all of the problems she mentioned.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 28, 2007, 07:03:20 PM
I do not take back a single thing I've said.  Namely, life events happen that alter some families courses and some people Wild out.  We could all do a better job in planning ahead.  I don't appreciate your holier than though attitude when I think my comments were fairly reasonable.

titcr.  Planning ahead could solve all of the problems she mentioned.

thats taking it too far.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on June 28, 2007, 07:14:47 PM
not really

ETA: OK, most of them
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 28, 2007, 07:19:50 PM
not really

ETA: OK, most of them

injury/disability, death, major health problems, and job loss strike me as things that are hard to predict and can be hard to overcome even if one is diligent in saving
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: LadyKD on June 28, 2007, 07:21:17 PM
I do not take back a single thing I've said.  Namely, life events happen that alter some families' course and some people wild out.  We could all do a better job in planning ahead.  I don't appreciate your holier than though attitude when I think my comments were fairly reasonable.

I didnt ask you take anything back..first rule in growing up knowing to agree to disagree. As for my holier than though attitude it is no different than you spouting the gospel according to you..when you have no idea of the whole situation.
Now I have spoken my peace and counted to three.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 28, 2007, 07:22:37 PM
I do not take back a single thing I've said.  Namely, life events happen that alter some families' course and some people wild out.  We could all do a better job in planning ahead.  I don't appreciate your holier than though attitude when I think my comments were fairly reasonable.

I didnt ask you take anything back..first rule in growing up knowing to agree to disagree. As for my holier than though attitude it is no different than you spouting the gospel according to you..when you have no idea of the whole situation.
Now I have spoken my peace and counted to three.

me thinks you haven't read any of my posts.  ah well.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on June 28, 2007, 07:28:28 PM
not really

ETA: OK, most of them

injury/disability, death, major health problems, and job loss strike me as things that are hard to predict and can be hard to overcome even if one is diligent in saving

Only the first is something that I would say can't be planned for.  The next two can be handled with insurance for the most part, and the last can probably be handled by saving a few months' salary.  Now I'm talking about those with white-collar jobs.  Of course, things are different if you don't have a nice income and portable/valuable job skills.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 28, 2007, 07:31:34 PM
sorry Alci, but if within seven months after starting at firm XYZ God forbid any of those things happen to you (save perhaps the last) you will be in trouble.  And insurance will not cover nearly enough for most life events.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on June 28, 2007, 07:35:37 PM
Yeah true.  You're right.  But for the grace of God...  ::sigh::
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on June 28, 2007, 07:36:42 PM
this is true provided that you already have a nice cushion..I had a minor setback last yr after my surgery but I just had to move a few things around not to incur any major setbacks..
it's a whole lot easier to save when you're only responsible for self...

not really

ETA: OK, most of them

injury/disability, death, major health problems, and job loss strike me as things that are hard to predict and can be hard to overcome even if one is diligent in saving

Only the first is something that I would say can't be planned for.  The next two can be handled with insurance for the most part, and the last can probably be handled by saving a few months' salary.  Now I'm talking about those with white-collar jobs.  Of course, things are different if you don't have a nice income and portable/valuable job skills.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on June 28, 2007, 10:40:40 PM
umm wtf:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtYZZy6rTPA&mode=related&search=

did that answer the question?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on June 29, 2007, 04:49:11 PM
umm wtf:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtYZZy6rTPA&mode=related&search=

did that answer the question?

Lol that had to have been one of the most bull answers outside of politics that I've heard in a while.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: pikey on July 04, 2007, 07:32:23 PM
Retire at 40: Here's how

It's simple, but hard. Take 20% of your gross income every month, invest it in a balanced index fund and leave it there, then retire 20 years later with enough for a lifetime. Do you have what it takes?

By The Simple Dollar

A young, forward-thinking man wrote and asked this simple question:

Right now, I'm 20 years old. I am willing to take a large percentage off the top of my salary for the rest of my working life in order to be able to retire very young and live off of the proceeds of my investments and do volunteer work. How many years would I have to work if I saved 20% of my income?

He went on to name a number of other specifics about his situation, but they're really not important. If you were to take 20% of your annual income starting at age 20 and put it in a fund following the S&P 500 Index ($INX), that fund continued to grow at the long-term historical rate (12%) and you received a 4% raise each year, you could walk away from your job and live off the interest at age 41 matching your current salary -- or quit at 43 and be able to give yourself a 4% "raise" each year from the interest, which is probably the better plan because it combats inflation.

Raise the amount to 25% and you're done at age 38 and able to live in perpetuity at age 40.

Obviously, some people are going to balk at this and state that it "can't" be done. The truth is that it can be done if you have the willingness to live below your means and authentically behave as if 20% of your total salary doesn't exist.

It is challenging, don't get me wrong. Let's take the case of someone who makes about $60,000 a year. He brings home a paycheck every month in the amount of $3,200. In order to save 20% of his whole annual salary ($12,000), he would have to be willing to immediately take $1,000 of that take-home paycheck every month, put it straight into an investment and not touch it at all. This takes an amount of financial fortitude and will power that, quite honestly, most Americans don't have.

My advice to this young man is that if this is truly your goal, then it is achievable, and I offer the following points of advice:

Make that saving automatic. Figure out what exact dollar amount you need to remove from each paycheck to equal 20% of your total salary, then set things up so that amount is withdrawn automatically. Since you're planning on retiring so young, it will have to be placed into a non-tax-sheltered investment account, which is fine if you invest it right.

Buy and hold. Buy into a very broad-based investment, such as the Vanguard 500 Index Fund (VFINX), and just keep adding money to it and don't move it around. This will set you up to pay only long-term capital-gains tax when you withdraw it, meaning that your tax time in the future when you start liquidating it to live will actually be quite pleasant (just long-term capital gains tax, if that even exists then).

Learn to appreciate frugal living. With an e-mail like that, I'm already sure that you are more likely to buy a sturdy late-model used car than a new Lexus, but it's important to state just the same: You can easily save that 20% you're wanting to save by making good lifestyle choices. You'll find that if you've made the investments automatic, you'll easily learn to live on whatever is left over.
 
Good luck, and I hope to hear from you when you're 40 and retired!

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/RetirementandWills/RetireEarly/RetireAt40HeresHow.aspx (http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/RetirementandWills/RetireEarly/RetireAt40HeresHow.aspx)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: The Dukes on July 04, 2007, 07:45:30 PM
Ha! You people sicken and amuse us simultaneously. Carry on with your pitiful lives and your "wealth building" exercises. You people have no idea what the meaning of wealth is!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on July 04, 2007, 08:46:53 PM
Retire at 40: Here's how

It's simple, but hard. Take 20% of your gross income every month, invest it in a balanced index fund and leave it there, then retire 20 years later with enough for a lifetime. Do you have what it takes?


Interesting.  I'd be bored though, so I'd keep working anyway.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: pikey on July 05, 2007, 05:59:08 AM
Retire at 40: Here's how

It's simple, but hard. Take 20% of your gross income every month, invest it in a balanced index fund and leave it there, then retire 20 years later with enough for a lifetime. Do you have what it takes?


Interesting.  I'd be bored though, so I'd keep working anyway.

But that gives you the freedom to do what you really love.  For me that would be to open a business such as a boutique/cafe or event planning, as well as have some flexibility to travel.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on July 05, 2007, 06:04:33 AM
Retire at 40: Here's how

It's simple, but hard. Take 20% of your gross income every month, invest it in a balanced index fund and leave it there, then retire 20 years later with enough for a lifetime. Do you have what it takes?


Is this pre-tax? 
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on July 05, 2007, 06:23:03 AM
Retire at 40: Here's how

It's simple, but hard. Take 20% of your gross income every month, invest it in a balanced index fund and leave it there, then retire 20 years later with enough for a lifetime. Do you have what it takes?


Is this pre-tax? 

In the article, it's post tax ($3200*12 = 38400), but I think it would depend on which you want to be your "income" at 40.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on July 05, 2007, 06:24:22 AM
Retire at 40: Here's how

It's simple, but hard. Take 20% of your gross income every month, invest it in a balanced index fund and leave it there, then retire 20 years later with enough for a lifetime. Do you have what it takes?


Interesting.  I'd be bored though, so I'd keep working anyway.

But that gives you the freedom to do what you really love.  For me that would be to open a business such as a boutique/cafe or event planning, as well as have some flexibility to travel.

I suppose that's true.  Maybe by then I will like something other than being a lawyer, although that's when I'd be at my best!
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: pikey on July 05, 2007, 06:32:59 AM
Retire at 40: Here's how

It's simple, but hard. Take 20% of your gross income every month, invest it in a balanced index fund and leave it there, then retire 20 years later with enough for a lifetime. Do you have what it takes?


Is this pre-tax? 

In the article, it's post tax ($3200*12 = 38400), but I think it would depend on which you want to be your "income" at 40.

No it's not.  It's 20% of your pre-tax income.  20% of 60k is 12k, which is what the article stated the man needs to save ($1,000 per month).
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on July 05, 2007, 06:34:22 AM
so essentially live on half your salary--less if you include tithes.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: pikey on July 05, 2007, 06:36:01 AM
so essentially live on half your salary--less if you include tithes.

Yup.  Difficult but doable.  I save approximately half of every paycheck now (though that's net, not gross).
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on July 05, 2007, 06:39:06 AM
so essentially live on half your salary--less if you include tithes.

Yup.  Difficult but doable.  I save approximately half of every paycheck now (though that's net, not gross).

depends. if you are clearing ~40k it might be a bit of a stretch
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: pikey on July 05, 2007, 07:04:47 AM
so essentially live on half your salary--less if you include tithes.

Yup.  Difficult but doable.  I save approximately half of every paycheck now (though that's net, not gross).

depends. if you are clearing ~40k it might be a bit of a stretch

I'm assuming that this article doesn't apply to people at that salary bracket.  Maybe I'm just being unrealistic, but who strives to make less than 40k for the rest of their life?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on July 05, 2007, 07:06:23 AM
Retire at 40: Here's how

It's simple, but hard. Take 20% of your gross income every month, invest it in a balanced index fund and leave it there, then retire 20 years later with enough for a lifetime. Do you have what it takes?


Is this pre-tax? 

In the article, it's post tax ($3200*12 = 38400), but I think it would depend on which you want to be your "income" at 40.

No it's not.  It's 20% of your pre-tax income.  20% of 60k is 12k, which is what the article stated the man needs to save ($1,000 per month).

Duh!  Remind me not to do math right after waking up.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on July 05, 2007, 07:07:54 AM
so essentially live on half your salary--less if you include tithes.

Yup.  Difficult but doable.  I save approximately half of every paycheck now (though that's net, not gross).

depends. if you are clearing ~40k it might be a bit of a stretch

I'm assuming that this article doesn't apply to people at that salary bracket.  Maybe I'm just being unrealistic, but who strives to make less than 40k for the rest of their life?

I think many people would be happy to make $40k.  But I agree that the article doesn't apply to them.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on July 05, 2007, 07:08:52 AM
so essentially live on half your salary--less if you include tithes.

Yup.  Difficult but doable.  I save approximately half of every paycheck now (though that's net, not gross).

Yeah it depends on what you accustom yourself to doing.  The g/f and I have agreed that, if we were to get married, we would save her income and live off of mine.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: pikey on July 05, 2007, 07:11:38 AM
so essentially live on half your salary--less if you include tithes.

Yup.  Difficult but doable.  I save approximately half of every paycheck now (though that's net, not gross).

depends. if you are clearing ~40k it might be a bit of a stretch

I'm assuming that this article doesn't apply to people at that salary bracket.  Maybe I'm just being unrealistic, but who strives to make less than 40k for the rest of their life?

I think many people would be happy to make $40k.  But I agree that the article doesn't apply to them.

I guess my perceptions are skewed from living on an island where $40k does not go far at all.  Someone who makes $40k in the US could still buy a house and live comfortably (I think).  Definitely not possible here.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on July 05, 2007, 07:15:31 AM
so essentially live on half your salary--less if you include tithes.

Yup.  Difficult but doable.  I save approximately half of every paycheck now (though that's net, not gross).

depends. if you are clearing ~40k it might be a bit of a stretch

I'm assuming that this article doesn't apply to people at that salary bracket.  Maybe I'm just being unrealistic, but who strives to make less than 40k for the rest of their life?

I think many people would be happy to make $40k.  But I agree that the article doesn't apply to them.

I guess my perceptions are skewed from living on an island where $40k does not go far at all.  Someone who makes $40k in the US could still buy a house and live comfortably (I think).  Definitely not possible here.

Well, it's not much, but you're not starving.  If you live in a low-COL area, you could buy a decent house and live relatively comfortably (e.g., 2 BR, Ford Taurus, etc.) as long as you keep the children and other expenses to a minimum.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: pikey on July 05, 2007, 07:18:46 AM
so essentially live on half your salary--less if you include tithes.

Yup.  Difficult but doable.  I save approximately half of every paycheck now (though that's net, not gross).

depends. if you are clearing ~40k it might be a bit of a stretch

I'm assuming that this article doesn't apply to people at that salary bracket.  Maybe I'm just being unrealistic, but who strives to make less than 40k for the rest of their life?

I think many people would be happy to make $40k.  But I agree that the article doesn't apply to them.

I guess my perceptions are skewed from living on an island where $40k does not go far at all.  Someone who makes $40k in the US could still buy a house and live comfortably (I think).  Definitely not possible here.

Well, it's not much, but you're not starving.  If you live in a low-COL area, you could buy a decent house and live relatively comfortably (e.g., 2 BR, Ford Taurus, etc.) as long as you keep the children and other expenses to a minimum.

Uh oh.  I should be a little wary when you say this...  :D
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on July 05, 2007, 07:21:10 AM
Ha! :D

(although I bet Miss P would advocate a minimum salary of around $40k)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on July 05, 2007, 11:39:42 AM
FYI for those of you thinking of skipping out on your NYC taxes:

 Docs, lawyers prove taxing to N.Y. State

Posted Monday, July 2nd 2007, 4:00 AM

You might be inclined to trust doctors and lawyers - but the taxman doesn't.

Attorney General Andrew Cuomo's office recently won guilty pleas from four lawyers, two doctors and a nurse who didn't bother to file income tax returns for three to five years.

New York tax officials found them - and 11,000 others who haven't filed returns - just by comparing the names of state-licensed professionals with state income tax returns.

"These high-income individuals could easily afford to pay their fair share," Cuomo said yesterday. "Instead, they decided to break the law to circumvent their obligations while increasing the burden on other taxpayers."

The biggest ripoff was committed by Manhattan lawyer Justine Clark, who earned almost $2.7 million between 2000 and 2005, but paid just $30,000 of the $292,282 in taxes she owed from those years, Cuomo said.

He said another Manhattan lawyer, John Lynch, owed $165,686 in taxes on the $1.6 million he made in that time, but paid just $9,000 of it.

Also pleading guilty for failing to file returns, Cuomo said, were lawyers Ronald Goldman of Brooklyn and Lawrence Wechsler of Great Neck, L.I.; doctors Ari Edelstein of Flushing, Queens, and Dominic Pompa of New Dorp, Staten Island, and nurse Philomena Walker of East Elmhurst, Queens.

Tax officials have audited more than 2,200 lawyers, accountants, architects, doctors, dentists, pharmacists, nurses and other licensed professionals, uncovering an estimated $12.8 million in unpaid taxes.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2007/07/02/2007-07-02_docs_lawyers_prove_taxing_to_ny_state.html
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Statistic on July 09, 2007, 02:13:34 PM
I want to get into the home foreclosure/tax credit game. talk to me about that pls. thanks
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on July 09, 2007, 02:15:13 PM
 :D are u trying to buy? and where?

I want to get into the home foreclosure/tax credit game. talk to me about that pls. thanks
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on July 09, 2007, 02:16:15 PM
Market will go down for a few more years, right? I hope so.  Surely more people have been screwed.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Statistic on July 09, 2007, 02:16:32 PM
:D are u trying to buy? and where?

I want to get into the home foreclosure/tax credit game. talk to me about that pls. thanks

first, i want to know how it works. can you tell me?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: justGem on July 09, 2007, 02:24:55 PM
Market will go down for a few more years, right? I hope so.  Surely more people have been screwed.

I'm seriously banking on this...seriously.
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: blk_reign on July 09, 2007, 02:51:35 PM
sure...when i'm in a better mood :)

:D are u trying to buy? and where?

I want to get into the home foreclosure/tax credit game. talk to me about that pls. thanks

first, i want to know how it works. can you tell me?
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: Statistic on July 09, 2007, 02:52:55 PM
selfish :P

thanks  :)
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on July 09, 2007, 09:01:46 PM
Auto leasing revs up again
Rising interest rates have been making it more expensive to buy.
By Martin Zimmerman, Times Staff Writer
July 7, 2007

Auto leasing is getting a new lease on life.

Since falling out of favor in the early years of the decade, leasing has been making a steady comeback with people like Debbie Rubio of Boyle Heights.

Rubio, co-owner of a Long Beach public relations firm, leased a 2007 Ford Edge crossover last month. The decision to lease rather than buy, she says, was a no-brainer.

"It's the easiest thing," said Rubio, 52.

"You go in and you put down a thousand bucks and you're out of there."

It didn't hurt that, after the down payment, the monthly cost of the three-year lease was $380. She figures the monthly payment on a straight purchase deal would've been more than $500.

"And after three years, all I have to do is take it back," she said. "I don't have to worry about trying to sell it or what kind of trade-in I'll get."

Leasing isn't for everyone, of course. For instance, if you plan to drive your car for more than three years, buying is probably the way to go. Buying also makes sense if you spend a lot of time on the road. Leases typically come with limits of 12,000 to 15,000 miles a year; the 10- or 12-cent-a-mile charge above the limit can add up fast if you miscalculate.

There are other advantages to buying. By building equity in the car, you have some trade-in value when you buy a new vehicle.

And once the loan is paid off, you can enjoy the pleasant sensation of not having to write a monthly check.

But there are solid reasons to lease, experts say, especially over the short term. Unlike a house — until recently, anyway — a car is a depreciating asset. That means that unless it's a Ferrari Enzo or some other collector classic, it tends to lose value year after year.

When you lease, you pay only for the portion of the car that you use. That generally means lower monthly payments, as in Rubio's case, or a fancier car for the same monthly payment as a not-so-fancy car.

"Often a lease allows someone to get a more expensive car than their budget would allow if they were buying," said Alex Rosten of Edmunds.com, an online automotive research site. Indeed, the 10 vehicles with the highest percentage of lease transactions are all luxury models.

Leasing can also provide tax benefits if the vehicle, like Rubio's, is used for business. And if you're the type who wants a new car every three years or so, leasing is definitely worth looking into.

And if you want to play the stock market, you could lease a car that you could afford to buy outright and invest the difference, said Brent Kessel, chief executive of Kubera Portfolios.com, a Pacific Palisades-based investment management firm.

For many, leasing carries a whiff of financial skulduggery — earned back when deceptive practices were common in the industry.

"Most people think that leasing isn't a good deal, and that's usually because they've gotten a bad deal on a lease in the past," said Ken Potter, vice president of sales for CarsDirect.com, an online automotive site.

Federal disclosure rules adopted in the late 1990s have leveled the playing field considerably, experts say.

You still have to pay attention, though. There are a slew of websites offering information to car buyers on dealer costs, incentives, options and so on. Detailed information on leasing deals is harder to come by, making comparison shopping more difficult, although sites such as Edmunds.com provide lease calculators that can help you prepare before going to a dealer.

At the very least, Potter said, potential leasers should remember that they still need to get a good price on the car.

"Do the same due diligence as you would if you were buying the car," he said. "Consumers get too focused on the monthly payments: 'I want a car and this payment looks good.' "

After accounting for close to a third of new-vehicle transactions in the late 1990s, leasing dropped sharply in the early years of this decade.

Plummeting interest rates made auto loans cheap and buying more attractive than leasing. The incentives that dealers used to goose car sales after 9/11 dented the resale market for leased cars, causing many lenders to get out of the leasing business, Potter said. And a 2003 New York law dealt a blow to leasing activity in that state.

The legal environment has since improved. Sky-high gas prices, meanwhile, are taking a bigger bite out of household budgets, making the lower monthly payments leasing can provide especially enticing to cash-strapped car shoppers. And automakers are pushing a raft of attractive deals — all of which has helped leasing account for 18% of new-vehicle transactions this year compared with 13.9% in 2003.

Not surprisingly, there's something in it for dealers too. More than 90% of leased cars are returned to the dealer at the end of the typical three-year contract.

To avoid penalties, customers tend to bring the cars back with reasonable mileage and in decent condition, making them prime candidates for resale as "certified" used cars — a designation that adds an average of $1,300 to the price, according to Edmunds.com.

"You need a source of used cars and leasing provides that source," said Tony Sorrentino, general sales manager at Honda World in Westminster.

Dealers also like the loyalty that leasing brings. Sorrentino estimates that he gets repeat business from 70% of his lease customers compared with 30% to 40% of customers who buy.

That loyalty needs to be a bit more flexible when it comes to the car itself, however.

"You still have to love what you drive," Rubio said of her new Edge. "But I love the idea that you get to change every few years. Out with the old, in with the new."


http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-garage7jul07,0,3813840,full.story?coll=la-home-business
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: A. on July 09, 2007, 09:23:12 PM
Lol I'll probably do this (forgive the language...gotta love XO!):

Buy 1 car, a weekend/driving car, or a hybrid or something that's relatively "cheap" that you can use when you don't give a @#!* and just want to drive around to the ghetto or to get a whore or crack, you don't want to take your 100k luxury car to some places.

Lease 1 car that you use to impress people and @#!* with, then get rid of it, or buy it at the end of the lease.

Leases aren't for poors, most poors buy their bad honda brand new. You can always buy a demo or 1 year old car and negate the whole argument, if you dont' care about slightly used, buy a slightly used car and save the $$$, but you're still a poor if you do that, just a smart one!

http://xoxoreader.blogspot.com/2007/04/cars-lease-or-buy.html
Title: Re: Home Ownership and Wealth Building
Post by: One Step Ahead on July 10, 2007, 06:24:37 AM