Law School Discussion

Law Students => Online Law Schools => Topic started by: fullitaliandmr on February 14, 2007, 06:25:17 AM

Title: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
Post by: fullitaliandmr on February 14, 2007, 06:25:17 AM
I just wanted to write something here because I think it is absolutely ridiculous for ABA students to critize DL students. For one, we ALL take the bar exam. Just because you attend Harvard or Yale doesn't mean you will pass the bar OR even be a good attorney. I am glad California is the first state to recognize DL because it will soon be mainstream. ABA schools are very expensive because of how much it costs the school to get approval. Again....nothing to do with the teaching methods....so what if you have a bigger library! I would also like to inform everyone that MANY individuals, including Abraham Lincoln, learned law on there own. This is NOT medical school....it can be done through self-study. One can argue that you need moot court....No, you simply go to your local court house and ask to observe. You inform them that you are a law student and that you would like to sit in. They are very helpful. Besides, law school teaches you NOTHING about actually practicing the law....why the hell do you think larger, more civilized states like California and New York have law office study programs???? Because they KNOW that going to an ABA school is NOT required....Get Real. I cant stand these people who hide behind the ABA accredidation....deep down inside they hate the fact that DL students will graduate with zero debt while they are down 120k without a job. Please...I have an MBA, CPA and a BA. Doing law school online has allowed me to continue working in my current profession while pursuing my ultimate dream. By the way, the California Bar Exam is the HARDEST in the United States...actually the BABY BAR is harder than some states actual bar exam. SO if you think DL students are retard or unable to make it in an ABA school than why are we PASSING THE HARDEST BAR IN THE U.S.???????? My advice is to stop being jealous and congratulate those who made a better choice by choosing a DL school. Get a life....and to those who are current DL students...Keep up the hard work.
Title: Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
Post by: TDJD84 on February 14, 2007, 07:36:48 AM
I personally have no problem with distance learning and applaud anyone who goes that route.  I will say however, schools like harvard, yale and most other tier 1 and most tier 2 schools tend to have a higher bar passage rate than DL schools.  It is probably easier to get a job coming from a traditional school.  A lot of people are into big law, big law lite, and government jobs, which are competitive enough to get into. I don't think those kinds of jobs generally hire DL students; at least not yet.  In addition, I think it is harder to network at a DL school and rely on an alumni database, which another key factor in getting a good job.  I am sure that things will start to change in the next 10-15 years with the evolution of the internet as well as the curriculum as DL schools.  You seem to be quite accomplished, and this JD is merely another degree to help further your career.  People who don't have an MBA or CPA to fall back on are in a slightly different boat than you.   
Title: Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
Post by: LegalLatin78 on February 14, 2007, 04:31:46 PM
Excellent post TDJD84.  Very good points.  There is nothing wrong with getting your JD online, and I think many mature B&M students understand this.  There are tons of kids running around this board bashing everyone and anyone they can get a rise out of.  I think that many B&M students would respect most people who could pass the bar while studying on their own.

Also, good point about the lack of networking and social interaction opportunities that many online DL schools do not provide.  One day they will probably address this and figure out a way to improve this aspect.  Unless you are already established, it is tough to get any kind of job without knowing the right people.
Title: Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
Post by: Sako on February 15, 2007, 12:53:18 PM
Some interesting points.  I do agree with one time that an online JD will face significant hardships entering the legal field, but I think that there are several other positive points about DL schools that often do not get mentioned:

1) The business world is becoming more remote.

In the past, people being in the same physical location was how things were done.  More and more now, business is conducted remotely.  Whether by email, video conferencing, phone conferencing, faxing, or some other sort of medium, the environment is increasingly becoming a remote one.  Considering this, the experience that DL students get achieving results outside of the B & M model is actually a very positive experience for moving into the "real" world.

2) The law is demanding more specific knowledge.

The days of lawyers doing anything and everything are dwindling.  Increasingly, a level of knowledge of a field outside of the law is being demanded.  DL school are a great step forward in allowing actively practicing professionals in a given field to add a legal education to their current skill base.  As is continually emphasized in the course work, knowledge of the black letter law counts for little without the ability to apply it to a set of facts.  In this capacity, people who add a law degree to existing degrees and experience will have a significant edge. 

I know that with out the DL school allowing me to continue to work my full time job while studying, I would not be able to attend law school at all.  When I am done, I will be able to combine a MS in Software Development, and 10 years of experience in the field with a JD degree.  I think it will allow for some interesting opportunities. 

As a further example, when I was taking the Baby Bar this past October, I was standing around with two of my class mates (who I had just met for the first time).  One was a surgeon with 20 years of experience, and the other was a CPA and tax investigator for the government.  You can see the opportunities that they will have that a person with just a law degree would not be eligible for.

3) The DL model is closer to what will be expected in the "real world".

I have attended both B & M and DL schools, and the methods of studying, the habits required, and means of feedback of the DL schools much more closely match what I experience in the business world.  I think that the business world will eventually come to recognize that a person who has the drive and discipline to learn law through a DL program possesses several of the qualities that they are looking for in employees.

4) Something is better than nothing.

A lot of the comments that I see on this board against DL are along the lines "why don't you just go to a B & M school", "If you were serious, you would just find a way to go to a B & M school".  I always assume that most of these comments come from people who don't have a family and a mortgage.  It is nice to think that you could just stop your life and drop everything for three years, and move to a law school.  This sounds good on an internet chat board, but it is not really that easy.  Perhaps it does not yet carry the full prestige  and have all of the opportunities of a Tier 1 degree, but sometimes you have to do the best you can with what you have.  I had the choice that I could sit around and wish that I could go to a B & M law school and whine that I couldn't, or I could attend a DL school.



In any case, ultimately the acceptance of the DL degree will be determined by the quality of the students that it produces.  I'm sure that this process will take at least a decade, but eventually the functionality of the graduates will determine the fate of DL programs.
Title: Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
Post by: PSUDSL08 on February 15, 2007, 04:50:03 PM
I just wanted to write something here because I think it is absolutely ridiculous for ABA students to critize DL students. For one, we ALL take the bar exam. Just because you attend Harvard or Yale doesn't mean you will pass the bar OR even be a good attorney.

Can't argue with you there


 
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ABA schools are very expensive because of how much it costs the school to get approval. Again....nothing to do with the teaching methods....so what if you have a bigger library! I would also like to inform everyone that MANY individuals, including Abraham Lincoln, learned law on there own. This is NOT medical school....it can be done through self-study. One can argue that you need moot court....No, you simply go to your local court house and ask to observe. You inform them that you are a law student and that you would like to sit in.

I'd say the law is a little more complex now than when good ol' Abe Lincoln learned it. Back in the day, people became lawyers by apprenticing with other lawyers. Nowadays I'd rather have professors hash through the complexities of the law than try to pick up a book and do it myself. While the third year of law school is completely useless and a way for schools to suck more loan money out of you, I think the first two years teach you a way of thinking that you'd be hard pressed to learn on your own.

And you don't need moot court, or law review, or any of the other extracurricular activities. However, alumni connections and on campus networking activities are things that tend to be very helpful, and things which you won't get from an online law learning process.

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Besides, law school teaches you NOTHING about actually practicing the law....why the hell do you think larger, more civilized states like California and New York have law office study programs???? Because they KNOW that going to an ABA school is NOT required....Get Real.

By the way, the California Bar Exam is the HARDEST in the United States...actually the BABY BAR is harder than some states actual bar exam. SO if you think DL students are retard or unable to make it in an ABA school than why are we PASSING THE HARDEST BAR IN THE U.S.????????


Hmm...then why do you continue to mention later on in your soapbox piece that you're passing "the hardest bar in the US?" Does passing the hardest bar in the US prepare you for being a lawyer?

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I cant stand these people who hide behind the ABA accredidation....deep down inside they hate the fact that DL students will graduate with zero debt while they are down 120k without a job.

I think you can't stand the fact that you were never admitted to an ABA accredited school, and are destined to sock it to everyone that is happy with their choice to attend an ABA accredited school. I can relate to you. I didn't get into any of my desired choices b/c of my LSAT, grinded it out at a T4, and I'm now at my initial first choice. I can now say F-you to all the T2's and other T3's that didn't admit me...just like you can say F-you to all the "stupid ABA law schools" that didn't admit you

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Please...I have an MBA, CPA and a BA.

Ok...we get it. You've accomplished a lot...You've done other types of graduate work. You'll probably make a fine attorney. Step down from the soapbox.

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Doing law school online has allowed me to continue working in my current profession while pursuing my ultimate dream.  My advice is to stop being jealous and congratulate those who made a better choice by choosing a DL school. Get a life....and to those who are current DL students...Keep up the hard work.

No...it seems like you've already congratulated yourself enough that there's no way any of us could possibly fit in any more congrats. Doing law school online has been a choice that has worked out well for you. Going to ABA accredited schools has been a choice that has worked out well for the vast majority of us. Yet you proclaim that getting your degree online is a better choice than going to an ABA accredited school on the basis of time and money alone. What about the students who are receiving full rides at their current schools? What about the part time students who are receiving full rides who are able to continue their employment (like yourself)?

Call me crazy, but I'd bet that the average ABA accredited grad will have not only more employment opportunities coming out of school, but more lucrative ones at that. The $120K  (give or take) in loans could very well be worth every penny once we hit the job market. With a decent salary, there's no reason that all of us will have to live on pork n' beans just to pay for the cost of our education.

At the end of the day, I understand where you're coming from. I think online degrees will be the wave of the future, and I think your program could very well produce some fine lawyers who earn great livings. But if you are so firmly convinced that your decision was the right one to make...do you really (a) need confirmation from internet forum posters, and (b) need to act high and mighty to prove a point?
Title: Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
Post by: UChi2L on February 15, 2007, 05:01:59 PM
why the hell do you think larger, more civilized states like California and New York have law office study programs???? Because they KNOW that going to an ABA school is NOT required....Get Real.

Cute!
Title: Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
Post by: JoeBob on February 22, 2007, 07:57:58 PM
The funny thing I find about hiding behind the ABA school argument is from the articles I have read all the schools are trying to get ABA approved.  If the ABA is soo bad then why are the DL schools trying to get approved?  I do not think ABA students are scared of change or competition from DLs, I think they just get mad when people who are not qualified to go to law school go to a diploma mill and call themselves lawyers.  As for larger states accepting people who do not go to ABA schools or law school at all, last check of CA I could not find a single bar passer who did not go to law school.  True ABA is not required, but if your school is going for ABA status then your school disagrees with you that the ABA status is important.  As for all people taking the bar exam, that is kind of true, however most DL's never get to take the bar as the baby bar pass rate is very low.  Those who do get to take the bar have a low bar pass rate, and then signifigant hurdles in finding a job.
Title: Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
Post by: Ronald Hyatt on February 23, 2007, 12:07:15 AM
I am actually curious. I don't know anything about these DL schools. So I went to a couple of their websites (Concord, Taft & Abraham Lincoln popped up on Google first). I must admit that I was shocked to see that the tuition was so high. Concord is almost $9k per year ($36k for all 4yrs). Abraham Lincoln is $6,750. Taft was more reasonable at $5,400 per year. Still, at the low end, you are shelling out $21k for the four years.

I'm sure this is due to my own myopic view of schooling, but what exactly does that get you? You don't have a law library. You don't have law journals or a moot court team. You don't have clubs or interest groups or special guest speakers. Or do you? I assume you have classes of some sort? Are you able to ask questions or is it just a lecture? Do they use the Socratic method? Do you chat with the professor and other students? How does it work? I mean, why not just go out and buy a dozen casebooks, read them from cover to cover and take the Baby Bar and the Bar on your own? Does a J.D. after your name from one of these schools really carry enough weight to justify spending $20k on it?
Title: Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
Post by: brewha on February 23, 2007, 06:25:52 AM
I am actually curious. I don't know anything about these DL schools. So I went to a couple of their websites (Concord, Taft & Abraham Lincoln popped up on Google first). I must admit that I was shocked to see that the tuition was so high. Concord is almost $9k per year ($36k for all 4yrs). Abraham Lincoln is $6,750. Taft was more reasonable at $5,400 per year. Still, at the low end, you are shelling out $21k for the four years.

I'm sure this is due to my own myopic view of schooling, but what exactly does that get you? You don't have a law library. You don't have law journals or a moot court team. You don't have clubs or interest groups or special guest speakers. Or do you? I assume you have classes of some sort? Are you able to ask questions or is it just a lecture? Do they use the Socratic method? Do you chat with the professor and other students? How does it work? I mean, why not just go out and buy a dozen casebooks, read them from cover to cover and take the Baby Bar and the Bar on your own? Does a J.D. after your name from one of these schools really carry enough weight to justify spending $20k on it?


My understanding is that while you may come out of these schools with little or no understanding of the law, you are well rested because of DL schools' emphasis on "nap time" and are one hell of a finger painter. 
Title: Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
Post by: O.B. Wan on February 23, 2007, 07:43:28 AM

I would think the professional world would look down upon you.  Similar to a degree from University of Phoenix, SOME employers may have the attitude that a degree is a degree, but these will most likely be individuals who have no education; are in their position due to starting work the day the company opened.

All I know, is if I was doing the hiring, and someone was setting across the desk from me, who did their undergrad at U. of Phoenix, then got their JD by way of DL, there is no way I would consider offering them a job.

DL has it's place, and if you live in Juno, AK, then employers would be understanding of the circumstances.  But beyond situations where DL was the only option, it just gives the impression of being lazy, or taking short cuts. 

Grades wouldn't even matter, because it's simply not the same.  It's not just the schooling, but the entire experience of going to law school that counts.  The best analogy I can think of would be to think of the attitudes natural bodybuilders, who worked their butt off to get in the shape they are in, would have towards someone who got into the same shape in 3 months by taking roids.

I'm not saying any of this is 100% true, or that DL does not provide a good education.  But the stigma of DL education is something to consider.  The attitudes towards online degrees is definitely not good.  And almost anyone who has earned the same degree by actually going to school, will think it is a complete joke.  Sorry.  I'm sure someone will repost with some story of someone they know, with an awesome job, etc; who went the DL route.  But these people are the exception.
Title: Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
Post by: TDJD84 on February 23, 2007, 08:15:40 AM
For those who are not using DL schools for career advancement purposes, what is the job placement, do those schools even have some sort of career center if you will?  Whats the median salary in the public/private sector, bar passage rates?  All information is a reflection of the legal education received there, (to an extent)
Title: Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
Post by: uart on February 23, 2007, 08:21:47 AM

I would think the professional world would look down upon you.  Similar to a degree from University of Phoenix, SOME employers may have the attitude that a degree is a degree, but these will most likely be individuals who have no education; are in their position due to starting work the day the company opened.

Headhunters generally don't care as much. They just need you to look good and meet the published requirements.

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All I know, is if I was doing the hiring, and someone was setting across the desk from me, who did their undergrad at U. of Phoenix, then got their JD by way of DL, there is no way I would consider offering them a job.

I'd consider it if it was a 50 year old guy with 3 kids. MAYBE. I still wouldn't, most likely, but if it is a younger person, I'd assume the worst.

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DL has it's place, and if you live in Juno, AK, then employers would be understanding of the circumstances.  But beyond situations where DL was the only option, it just gives the impression of being lazy, or taking short cuts.
It SHOULD, but I have a feeling that outside of law school, it doesn't.

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Grades wouldn't even matter, because it's simply not the same.  It's not just the schooling, but the entire experience of going to law school that counts.  The best analogy I can think of would be to think of the attitudes natural bodybuilders, who worked their butt off to get in the shape they are in, would have towards someone who got into the same shape in 3 months by taking roids.
I followed you right up until the roids analogy. DL isn't cheating, it's just not the same at all as an ABA school.

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I'm not saying any of this is 100% true, or that DL does not provide a good education.  But the stigma of DL education is something to consider.  The attitudes towards online degrees is definitely not good.  And almost anyone who has earned the same degree by actually going to school, will think it is a complete joke.   Sorry.  I'm sure someone will repost with some story of someone they know, with an awesome job, etc; who went the DL route.  But these people are the exception.

I hope law school is different, but my sister is a recruiter. She went to a good UG. She tells me that she has no problems with UofPh or other online programs. She actually intends to do an online Masters herself. She's obviously not a prestige-whore like her brother, but still...
Title: Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
Post by: RobWreck on February 23, 2007, 08:29:46 AM
What I don't understand is why someone that has accomplished so much (MBA, CPA, BA) feels so insecure that the criticisms of other law students provokes such a rant? Were those other degrees earned through DL, therefore leaving the OP in doubt about his entire educational background? If DL truly is as good as B&M schooling, then why does the OP feel the need to try to convince other law students of its worth when the true value of the DL degree will be judged by employment offers? If a DL degree ISN'T of equal value to a B&M degree (an opinion that many seem to hold), then the OP has no basis to his claim.
 ???
Title: Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
Post by: Sako on February 23, 2007, 12:58:13 PM
....
By the way, the California Bar Exam is the HARDEST in the United States...actually the BABY BAR is harder than some states actual bar exam.


Just out of curiosity, is there anything to backup these statements, or is it just anecdotal?
Title: Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
Post by: UChi2L on February 23, 2007, 03:25:07 PM

My understanding is that while you may come out of these schools with little or no understanding of the law, you are well rested because of DL schools' emphasis on "nap time" and are one hell of a finger painter. 

I'm in remedial finger painting at my brick & mortar school ... do you think I should sign up for supplemental classes at Novus?
Title: Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
Post by: UChi2L on February 23, 2007, 03:25:51 PM

My understanding is that while you may come out of these schools with little or no understanding of the law, you are well rested because of DL schools' emphasis on "nap time" and are one hell of a finger painter. 

I'm in remedial finger painting at my brick & mortar school ... do you think I should sign up for supplemental classes at Novus?

Oops.  You can't be "at" something that doesn't exist.
Title: Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
Post by: JoeBob on February 24, 2007, 07:38:56 AM
the baby bar is not hard, the reason the pass rates are soo low is that DL and non aba schools admit anyone with a credit card. The whole I will pass the hardest bar in the nation argument is moot as very few dls ever pass the bar.  Just do the math a huge portion do not pass the baby bar and of those that do a tiny portion pass the bar.  Not to mention you can not go to another state as most require an ABA degree.  If I was an old man having a midlife crisis I would invest in a red corvette not a fake law degree.
Title: Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
Post by: jacy85 on February 24, 2007, 08:09:50 AM
the baby bar is not hard, the reason the pass rates are soo low is that DL and non aba schools admit anyone with a credit card. The whole I will pass the hardest bar in the nation argument is mute as very few dls ever pass the bar.  Just do the math a huge portion do not pass the baby bar and of those that do a tiny portion pass the bar.  Not to mention you can not go to another state as most require an ABA degree.  If I was an old man having a midlife crisis I would invest in a red corvette not a fake law degree.

It's moot, not mute.  If you're going to accuse everyone who gets a DL degree of having a midlife crisis, at least use phrases and terms that you understand.
Title: Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
Post by: JoeBob on February 24, 2007, 11:04:24 AM
my bad yet the fact remains you go to a school that gives anyone with a credit card a diploma.  You might as well go to online medical school and become a fake doctor.
Title: Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
Post by: jacy85 on February 24, 2007, 12:23:26 PM
I never said I went to a DL school.  Maybe you should read the board instead of trolling around for 3 hours just to insult people.
Title: Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
Post by: Sako on February 24, 2007, 05:14:03 PM
the baby bar is not hard, the reason the pass rates are soo low is that DL and non aba schools admit anyone with a credit card. The whole I will pass the hardest bar in the nation argument is moot as very few dls ever pass the bar.  Just do the math a huge portion do not pass the baby bar and of those that do a tiny portion pass the bar.  ...

So is your issue with all DL students who have degrees, or just the ones that don't pass the Bar?
Title: Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
Post by: mundo on February 25, 2007, 10:27:31 AM
my bad yet the fact remains you go to a school that gives anyone with a credit card a diploma.  You might as well go to online medical school and become a fake doctor.


I don't follow your logic here. The DL law student has to pass the same bar exam as the traditional student, regardless of the credit card limit.
Title: Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
Post by: Ronald Hyatt on February 25, 2007, 11:06:44 AM
passing the bar doesn't necessarily indicate that you are smart and/or a good lawyer. all it means is that you have some minimum level of competency in a handful of legal topics that most practicing lawyers forget within a few years, unless they practice in that area. in fact, if you look in the yellow pages you will find a bunch of crappy lawyers who passed the bar.

as with any profession, for better or worse, clients, employers, and business associates will use the name of your school  along with your accomplishments as an initial proxy for assessing your intelligence. if you go to a school that anyone with a credit card can get into, it doesn't say anything positive about your intelligence. at worst, it says that you did not even have the minimum qualifications to get into a T4 school. at best, it says that you were a busy career professional who lived a long way from an accredited law school and chose to go the DL route. i think the latter is the exception and the former makes up the vast majority. whether or not that is truly the case, the reality is that almost everyone will make the worst assumption.

this is why it is not a good idea to go to a school that "gives anyone with a credit card a diploma."
Title: Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
Post by: Sako on February 25, 2007, 02:46:38 PM
... in fact, if you look in the yellow pages you will find a bunch of crappy lawyers who passed the bar.

Since a majority of them come from ABA approved schools, we agree that ABA certification doesn't really act as an effecive screening device for the ultimate quality of the lawyer?

I do agree that for whether logical or not, the school name will carry weight.  Ultimate, you hope that competence will win the day, even if it is an up hill fight.
Title: Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
Post by: Ronald Hyatt on February 25, 2007, 03:00:31 PM
... in fact, if you look in the yellow pages you will find a bunch of crappy lawyers who passed the bar.

Since a majority of them come from ABA approved schools, we agree that ABA certification doesn't really act as an effective screening device for the ultimate quality of the lawyer?

I do agree that for whether logical or not, the school name will carry weight.  Ultimate, you hope that competence will win the day, even if it is an up hill fight.

Agreed. I would argue, however, that the percentage of crappy lawyers graduated from a particular institution increases as you slide down the scale of selectivity in admissions. So I wouldn't say that the generalizations one draws from the school's name is totally illogical on the whole. Although, as with any stereotype, a given species from within the genus might defy the presumption.
Title: Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
Post by: veganvenus on April 25, 2007, 02:22:00 PM
$200k+ x 30 years - 33k x 3 years.
$40k+ x 30 years - 9k x 3 years.

If only we had a CPA to let us know what is the better choice!

In all seriousness, trashing the loan debt of ABA law school graduates doesn't make much sense.  It is a wise investment in lifetime earning power.
Title: Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
Post by: Bob Loblaw Esq. on April 25, 2007, 04:35:51 PM
... in fact, if you look in the yellow pages you will find a bunch of crappy lawyers who passed the bar.

Since a majority of them come from ABA approved schools, we agree that ABA certification doesn't really act as an effective screening device for the ultimate quality of the lawyer?

I do agree that for whether logical or not, the school name will carry weight.  Ultimate, you hope that competence will win the day, even if it is an up hill fight.

Agreed. I would argue, however, that the percentage of crappy lawyers graduated from a particular institution increases as you slide down the scale of selectivity in admissions. So I wouldn't say that the generalizations one draws from the school's name is totally illogical on the whole. Although, as with any stereotype, a given species from within the genus might defy the presumption.


...here's what I found on the selectivity (from the NOVUS site)

A Bachelor's degree is not required for JD Law Admission. The Law School requires only one of the following to be admitted to Novus Law SchoolSchool of Law:

 
An Associateís Degree or

60 semester units or

Passed School Exam or

Five years professional or technical management or administrative experience

I am not sure exactly what "passed school exam" means, but I suppose it is some sort of competency test. Then again, maybe not, as it seems that you could work a part time gig answering phones for a couple years and have the requisite qualifications. 

Title: Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
Post by: StevePirates on May 23, 2007, 08:40:51 PM
the ABA doesn't require a JD candidate to hold a BA either.  Just 3/4ths of the units.  the JD is a misnomer.  It was originally an LL.B. , leading to an LL.M, and ultimately to an SJD.

But since LL.B was as far as most went, they made it a professional doctoral, like an M.D.

My own personal stance is that if you're smart enough to pass the bar, and are the king of studying on your own, then it can't hurt.  At the end of the day, if you pass the bar, you pass the bar.   But if you're smart enough to pass the bar after going online, you should be smart enough to get into a traditional law school.

Basically it's a catch 22.  If you need to go there because of your lack of selectability, then they won't do you any good.  If you are so good that it doesn't matter where you go, then you could easily go to a regular school.  This is especially true in California.
Title: Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
Post by: uart on June 10, 2007, 06:06:29 PM
But since LL.B was as far as most went, they made it a professional doctoral, like an M.D.

I though that they made it a professional doctoral because, unlike in other countries, US law schools were a graduate-level degree?
Title: Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
Post by: Alltruth on July 03, 2007, 08:30:43 PM
I just wanted to write something here because I think it is absolutely ridiculous for ABA students to critize DL students. For one, we ALL take the bar exam. Just because you attend Harvard or Yale doesn't mean you will pass the bar OR even be a good attorney.

Can't argue with you there


 
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ABA schools are very expensive because of how much it costs the school to get approval. Again....nothing to do with the teaching methods....so what if you have a bigger library! I would also like to inform everyone that MANY individuals, including Abraham Lincoln, learned law on there own. This is NOT medical school....it can be done through self-study. One can argue that you need moot court....No, you simply go to your local court house and ask to observe. You inform them that you are a law student and that you would like to sit in.

I'd say the law is a little more complex now than when good ol' Abe Lincoln learned it. Back in the day, people became lawyers by apprenticing with other lawyers. Nowadays I'd rather have professors hash through the complexities of the law than try to pick up a book and do it myself. While the third year of law school is completely useless and a way for schools to suck more loan money out of you, I think the first two years teach you a way of thinking that you'd be hard pressed to learn on your own.

And you don't need moot court, or law review, or any of the other extracurricular activities. However, alumni connections and on campus networking activities are things that tend to be very helpful, and things which you won't get from an online law learning process.

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Besides, law school teaches you NOTHING about actually practicing the law....why the hell do you think larger, more civilized states like California and New York have law office study programs???? Because they KNOW that going to an ABA school is NOT required....Get Real.

By the way, the California Bar Exam is the HARDEST in the United States...actually the BABY BAR is harder than some states actual bar exam. SO if you think DL students are retard or unable to make it in an ABA school than why are we PASSING THE HARDEST BAR IN THE U.S.????????


Hmm...then why do you continue to mention later on in your soapbox piece that you're passing "the hardest bar in the US?" Does passing the hardest bar in the US prepare you for being a lawyer?

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I cant stand these people who hide behind the ABA accredidation....deep down inside they hate the fact that DL students will graduate with zero debt while they are down 120k without a job.

I think you can't stand the fact that you were never admitted to an ABA accredited school, and are destined to sock it to everyone that is happy with their choice to attend an ABA accredited school. I can relate to you. I didn't get into any of my desired choices b/c of my LSAT, grinded it out at a T4, and I'm now at my initial first choice. I can now say F-you to all the T2's and other T3's that didn't admit me...just like you can say F-you to all the "stupid ABA law schools" that didn't admit you

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Please...I have an MBA, CPA and a BA.

Ok...we get it. You've accomplished a lot...You've done other types of graduate work. You'll probably make a fine attorney. Step down from the soapbox.

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Doing law school online has allowed me to continue working in my current profession while pursuing my ultimate dream.  My advice is to stop being jealous and congratulate those who made a better choice by choosing a DL school. Get a life....and to those who are current DL students...Keep up the hard work.

No...it seems like you've already congratulated yourself enough that there's no way any of us could possibly fit in any more congrats. Doing law school online has been a choice that has worked out well for you. Going to ABA accredited schools has been a choice that has worked out well for the vast majority of us. Yet you proclaim that getting your degree online is a better choice than going to an ABA accredited school on the basis of time and money alone. What about the students who are receiving full rides at their current schools? What about the part time students who are receiving full rides who are able to continue their employment (like yourself)?

Call me crazy, but I'd bet that the average ABA accredited grad will have not only more employment opportunities coming out of school, but more lucrative ones at that. The $120K  (give or take) in loans could very well be worth every penny once we hit the job market. With a decent salary, there's no reason that all of us will have to live on pork n' beans just to pay for the cost of our education.

At the end of the day, I understand where you're coming from. I think online degrees will be the wave of the future, and I think your program could very well produce some fine lawyers who earn great livings. But if you are so firmly convinced that your decision was the right one to make...do you really (a) need confirmation from internet forum posters, and (b) need to act high and mighty to prove a point?
What is so complicated about the law? You have lawyers in the United Kingdom who are lawyers on an undergraduate degree. You are not talking rocket science and the law is no more complicated than any other discipline and what is taught in U. S. law schools could be easily taught in a 4-year undergraduate program. Your credentials tell me that you donít have much faith in yourself since you have to hide behind academic credentials.
 
Title: Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
Post by: Alltruth on July 03, 2007, 08:35:19 PM
What is so complicated about the law? You have lawyers in the United Kingdom who are lawyers on an undergraduate degree. You are not talking rocket science and the law is no more complicated than any other discipline. What is taught in U. S. law schools could be easily taught in a 4-year undergraduate program. Your credentials tell me that you donít have much faith in yourself since you have to hide behind academic credentials.
 
Title: Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
Post by: wardwilliams on July 03, 2007, 10:14:06 PM
What is so complicated about the law? You have lawyers in the United Kingdom who are lawyers on an undergraduate degree. You are not talking rocket science and the law is no more complicated than any other discipline. What is taught in U. S. law schools could be easily taught in a 4-year undergraduate program. Your credentials tell me that you donít have much faith in yourself since you have to hide behind academic credentials.
 



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Title: Re: Stop Hiding behind your ABA school...
Post by: PSUDSL08 on July 13, 2007, 05:50:18 AM
What is so complicated about the law? You have lawyers in the United Kingdom who are lawyers on an undergraduate degree. You are not talking rocket science and the law is no more complicated than any other discipline. What is taught in U. S. law schools could be easily taught in a 4-year undergraduate program. Your credentials tell me that you donít have much faith in yourself since you have to hide behind academic credentials.
 


I never said the law was overwhelmingly complicated. I just said that the law is more complicated now than in the 1800's where the OP inferred that if Abe Lincoln could learn the law himself back then, that it's just as easy now. I agree that it can be done in a 4 year undergraduate program. The issue is do we want kids fresh out of high school trying to handle the rigors of law school? The dropout rates would be significantly higher for a multitude of reasons: (1) 18 yr old kids really don't know what they want to do yet...it usually takes a couple years of undergrad and even an entry level job before you know what career path you want to take. (2) maturity - can they handle studying on most weekends when their friends are out partying all the time, etc. (3) Risk/reward: provided you don't completely screw up, you can earn a college degree with a minimal amount of work. Are parents really going to encourage their teenagers to take out loans and go to law school when they could very well drop out or fail out, leaving them in the hole with no degree? The system may be costly and inefficient for some, but I don't see a reason to change it.

And aside from mentioning the fact that I transferred up, I mentioned nothing about my academic credentials. Please tell me how I'm "hiding" behind my academic credentials and how I don't have faith in myself..