Law School Discussion

Law Students => Current Law Students => Topic started by: scottyd1982 on September 22, 2006, 09:14:05 AM

Title: Question on Student Etiquette, Re: Gunners, Unnecessary Commentary & Hypos, Etc.
Post by: scottyd1982 on September 22, 2006, 09:14:05 AM
Like many other 1Ls, my section has quite a few gunners. Some other section mates and I are trying to nail down some "rules of classroom etiquette" for a quasi-Socratic dialogue.  Tell me what you guys think of these rules:

1. When the professor asks you a direct question pertaining to a case, statute, or hypothetical, answer directly and in as few words/sentences as possible. Do not pontificate or wax philosophically. We are all trying to learn black-letter law, and your gray-letter hazy b.s. is frustrating that goal.

2. If you are unprepared, and the professor asks you a question, say "pass" and allow somebody else to move on (this is an option at our school) with the discussion.

3. Do not volunteer for questions or comments unless the professor invites such discussion.

4. Do not discuss personal experiences. Period.

5. Do not argue with the professor. You're a 1L. They're older than God. Do the math.

5. Do not invoke hypothetical scenarios involving some sort of factual distinction from the present rule discussed unless explicitly invited to do so by the professor.

6. Limit yourself to one question or comment during volunteer periods in class per session. Quit hogging class time trying to prove to other people in your class, who had the same GPA and LSAT score that you did, that you are smarter they are. You aren't making friends with your future colleagues.

7. Only use Instant Messenger for the purposes of making fun of the people who are presently violating these rules. Do not use AIM to talk to your significant other when you should be trying to figure our venue under federal question subject matter jurisdiction.

8. All discussion not permitted under this code shall be reserved for study groups, professor e-mails, office hours, and lonely nights in wish you alternate between Dungeons and Dragons and your casebook. For the love of God. Who is still younger than your professor.
Title: Re: Question on Student Etiquette, Re: Gunners, Unnecessary Commentary & Hypos, Etc.
Post by: slacker on September 23, 2006, 01:03:42 PM
Are you going to take people behind the building and beat them up if they don't comply? Seems to me that while there is some peer pressure that affects behavior, a lot of it is really within the realm of the professor to manage. Do they sign on to these rules, too? (And if you don't, do you take them out back and beat them behind the building).

Interesting view of professor's ages. I've had at least one professor each semester that's younger than I am. I guess that makes me older than god, too...so I guess that means you should listen.
Title: Re: Question on Student Etiquette, Re: Gunners, Unnecessary Commentary & Hypos, Etc.
Post by: 4DClaw on September 24, 2006, 03:31:07 PM
I'd qualify that to say arguing with professors CAN BE the most interesting part, provided the argument is logical, clear and hasn't already been stated by other classmates. Unfortunately, too many gunners just like to hear their voices, and they don't think before talking.

Your rules would make for a pretty boring class. Arguing with professors is the most interesting part.
Title: Re: Question on Student Etiquette, Re: Gunners, Unnecessary Commentary & Hypos, Etc.
Post by: brewha on September 24, 2006, 04:55:29 PM
this is the worst set of rules ever.  what makes the list even worse are your feeble attempts at humor.  while i in no way condone "gunning" or anything of that nature, you need to leave posting nonsense to those of us that can at least make it fun to read.
Title: Re: Question on Student Etiquette, Re: Gunners, Unnecessary Commentary & Hypos, Etc.
Post by: Budlaw on September 24, 2006, 06:03:30 PM
Like many other 1Ls, my section has quite a few gunners. Some other section mates and I are trying to nail down some "rules of classroom etiquette" for a quasi-Socratic dialogue.  Tell me what you guys think of these rules:

1. When the professor asks you a direct question pertaining to a case, statute, or hypothetical, answer directly and in as few words/sentences as possible. Do not pontificate or wax philosophically. We are all trying to learn black-letter law, and your gray-letter hazy b.s. is frustrating that goal.

2. If you are unprepared, and the professor asks you a question, say "pass" and allow somebody else to move on (this is an option at our school) with the discussion.

3. Do not volunteer for questions or comments unless the professor invites such discussion.

4. Do not discuss personal experiences. Period.

5. Do not argue with the professor. You're a 1L. They're older than God. Do the math.

5. Do not invoke hypothetical scenarios involving some sort of factual distinction from the present rule discussed unless explicitly invited to do so by the professor.

6. Limit yourself to one question or comment during volunteer periods in class per session. Quit hogging class time trying to prove to other people in your class, who had the same GPA and LSAT score that you did, that you are smarter they are. You aren't making friends with your future colleagues.

7. Only use Instant Messenger for the purposes of making fun of the people who are presently violating these rules. Do not use AIM to talk to your significant other when you should be trying to figure our venue under federal question subject matter jurisdiction.

8. All discussion not permitted under this code shall be reserved for study groups, professor e-mails, office hours, and lonely nights in wish you alternate between Dungeons and Dragons and your casebook. For the love of God. Who is still younger than your professor.

You forgot rule number 9: Don't make a list on classroom etiquette and post on lawschooldiscussion unless it's funny.
Title: Re: Question on Student Etiquette, Re: Gunners, Unnecessary Commentary & Hypos,
Post by: Jumboshrimps on September 24, 2006, 06:46:05 PM
I concur with my bretheren in finding that lists on this discussion board must be funny, else the author shall be strung up and whipped with a wet noodle, and then left to ponder the unfunniness of the post while lying in a puddle of unfunny schmack.
Title: Re: Question on Student Etiquette, Re: Gunners, Unnecessary Commentary & Hypos, Etc.
Post by: Dxion on September 25, 2006, 08:39:58 PM
You suck.
Title: Re: Question on Student Etiquette, Re: Gunners, Unnecessary Commentary & Hypos,
Post by: 980eQ on September 25, 2006, 10:50:05 PM
We only had one rule, if you are sick, stay the hell home, do not come Typhoid Mary style and get the rest of us all screwed up
Title: Re: Question on Student Etiquette, Re: Gunners, Unnecessary Commentary & Hypos,
Post by: TDJD84 on November 07, 2006, 12:31:35 PM
while I also do not condone gunning, nothing wakes the class up like watching a gunner got shot down by the professor
Title: Re: Question on Student Etiquette, Re: Gunners, Unnecessary Commentary & Hypos, Etc.
Post by: DaviesAss on December 23, 2006, 12:02:19 PM
I am really in favor of Rule 4, "Do not discuss personal experiences. Period." That should be the Eleventh Commandment. And it goes for professors too if they are talking about their wives or kids.
Title: Re: Question on Student Etiquette, Re: Gunners, Unnecessary Commentary & Hypos,
Post by: oscarsonthepond on December 24, 2006, 12:39:10 AM
At risk of being unfunny...let me say recount this one moment.

In torts, we were discussing what physical symptoms may be recoverable for NIED. Most states don't allow recover for purely emotional symptoms BUT one of the the physical symptoms they allow recovery for is loss of bladder control. The professor said this very quickly and moved on. I looked around the class and nobody got it.

Any jokes about, well, this subject seem funny to me. I can't believe I'm the only one who got it....

The original post on this threat did not result in loss of bladder control...hence, not funny.

Maybe I'm slow, but I don't get it.
Title: Re: Question on Student Etiquette, Re: Gunners, Unnecessary Commentary & Hypos, Etc.
Post by: landrover06 on January 07, 2007, 08:42:12 PM
I personally find it annoying when some classmates talk without raising their hand or seem to want to make an attempt to answer every question.  But in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter.

What matters is that I am getting what the professor is teaching and that I am prepared and caught up enough to consider myself in good shape in preparation for the exam. 

It's up to the professor to control the class, not me, and he/she can set the ground rules early if desired.
Title: Re: Question on Student Etiquette, Re: Gunners, Unnecessary Commentary & Hypos, Etc.
Post by: TheNewGuy on May 21, 2007, 09:56:33 AM
Like many other 1Ls, my section has quite a few gunners. Some other section mates and I are trying to nail down some "rules of classroom etiquette" for a quasi-Socratic dialogue.  Tell me what you guys think of these rules:

1. When the professor asks you a direct question pertaining to a case, statute, or hypothetical, answer directly and in as few words/sentences as possible. Do not pontificate or wax philosophically. We are all trying to learn black-letter law, and your gray-letter hazy b.s. is frustrating that goal.

2. If you are unprepared, and the professor asks you a question, say "pass" and allow somebody else to move on (this is an option at our school) with the discussion.

3. Do not volunteer for questions or comments unless the professor invites such discussion.

4. Do not discuss personal experiences. Period.

5. Do not argue with the professor. You're a 1L. They're older than God. Do the math.

5. Do not invoke hypothetical scenarios involving some sort of factual distinction from the present rule discussed unless explicitly invited to do so by the professor.

6. Limit yourself to one question or comment during volunteer periods in class per session. Quit hogging class time trying to prove to other people in your class, who had the same GPA and LSAT score that you did, that you are smarter they are. You aren't making friends with your future colleagues.

7. Only use Instant Messenger for the purposes of making fun of the people who are presently violating these rules. Do not use AIM to talk to your significant other when you should be trying to figure our venue under federal question subject matter jurisdiction.

8. All discussion not permitted under this code shall be reserved for study groups, professor e-mails, office hours, and lonely nights in wish you alternate between Dungeons and Dragons and your casebook. For the love of God. Who is still younger than your professor.

yeah, after working a few years, I'm more inclined to agree with this when I go to l.s. I've learned the art of shutting up. You might need hundreds of blunders before you come up w/ something insightful at the student level...not totally against it either though.  Are the elite schools more abundant with these "creative" types?

Title: Re: Question on Student Etiquette, Re: Gunners, Unnecessary Commentary & Hypos, Etc.
Post by: LawJockey07 on May 24, 2007, 11:09:08 AM
I have two thoughts on asking questions in class:

1. Asking the question in office hours instead gives you a reason to go to office hours, which is always a good idea.

2. Remember you are graded on a curve, if you ask questions in class you are giving ammo to your enemy.  Another reason to take advantage of office hours.
Title: Re: Question on Student Etiquette, Re: Gunners, Unnecessary Commentary & Hypos, Etc.
Post by: LawJockey07 on May 24, 2007, 11:11:33 AM
I'd qualify that to say arguing with professors CAN BE the most interesting part, provided the argument is logical, clear and hasn't already been stated by other classmates. Unfortunately, too many gunners just like to hear their voices, and they don't think before talking.

Your rules would make for a pretty boring class. Arguing with professors is the most interesting part.

Meanwhile, as you argue with the prof, everyone else is thinking, "Why doesn't this dumbass shut the F up so we can get out of here on time."
Title: Re: Question on Student Etiquette, Re: Gunners, Unnecessary Commentary & Hypos, Etc.
Post by: LVP on August 13, 2007, 03:56:49 PM
I'm going to assume (pretend?) that the OP wasn't trying to be funny, and answer it seriously.

1. I agree with this almost completely.  As a side note, though, the statement "We're here to learn black-letter law" is not the best attitude.  The sooner you can get past this, at least in 1L, the better.

2. Generally good advice, if that is an option.  At our school, some professors allow this, some allow a limited number of them, some only allow them if you give them a note before class (and allow only a limited number), and some don't allow it at all.  So - if it's an option, good advice, if not, then pretty useless.  Better advice is just be prepared.

3. Comments, yes.  Questions, generally yes, but if you have a decent sense for it, you can ask in a way that the class finds informative and helpful.  I generally save mine for after if I can, but sometimes a question just has to be asked at the time, or it will be too hard to explain later.  Do it quickly, concisely, and rarely.

4. A good rule.  Some professors ask for personal experiences.

The first 5. The comment on age is inconsistent with my law school experience, but the advice is good advice.  John Galt thinks arguing with professors is the most interesting part.  I would wager that John Galt's classmates think seeing John Galt get embarrassed is the most interesting part of class.  I would further wager (along with LawJockey07) that, as interesting as they find it, most of John Galt's classmates would strongly prefer that he shut the eff up already.

The second 5. Again, a good rule of thumb, but a rule that can be broken if you have a good sense of it.  (If you're thinking about this comment or my comment on #3, and wondering if you have a good sense of it, you probably don't.  If you're not wondering, you still probably don't.)

6. Like most of these rules, this one can probably be broken now and then.  But seriously, if you're asking questions or making comments in order to impress anybody, then shut the eff up, for real.  You're doing nobody any favors by trying to impress people, least of all yourself, who are quickly becoming a laughing stock.  I'm 100% with the OP on this.

7. Your grade will probably be inversely proportional to your use of AIM in class.  Grades, especially 1L grades, are of paramount importance.  Using these two statements, you can decide whether it makes more sense to use AIM to make fun of your fellow students, or to just make fun of them the old fashioned way, after class.

8. Uh, whatever.


If I were to add one more, it would be:

10. If you don't know who the gunner/laughingstock/most obnoxious person in class is, it's you.
Title: Re: Question on Student Etiquette, Re: Gunners, Unnecessary Commentary & Hypos,
Post by: wesclark on August 14, 2007, 02:10:16 AM
i gotta say i enjoy the gunner from my 1L section who knew he was the gunner and was OK with it. he drove me nuts but you gotta respeck that.
Title: Re: Question on Student Etiquette, Re: Gunners, Unnecessary Commentary & Hypos,
Post by: StevePirates on August 15, 2007, 09:00:18 PM
i gotta say i enjoy the gunner from my 1L section who knew he was the gunner and was OK with it. he drove me nuts but you gotta respeck that.

I agree to this to some extent.  I think there is a difference between people who are eager to participate and answer a lot of questions but who do so quickly and accurately, and those who just like to hear themselves talk and debate hypos and discuss their own opinions and ask questions. 

I don't mind the first at all, the second.... eh, not my thing.
Title: Re: Question on Student Etiquette, Re: Gunners, Unnecessary Commentary & Hypos,
Post by: vaplaugh on August 16, 2007, 06:25:33 PM
tag
Title: Re: Question on Student Etiquette, Re: Gunners, Unnecessary Commentary & Hypos, Etc.
Post by: rugercaptain on August 20, 2007, 07:59:36 PM
Meanwhile, as you argue with the prof, everyone else is thinking, "Why doesn't this dumbass shut the F up so we can get out of here on time."

I was thinking this while trapped by the gunner in my LW classes during orientation week.   :(
Title: Re: Question on Student Etiquette, Re: Gunners, Unnecessary Commentary & Hypos,
Post by: njlaw on August 21, 2007, 01:45:58 PM
Your speech code would turn law school into a correspondence class from the University of Phoenix. Some students are annoying, but the law is far more gray than you take it to be. Discussion is important.
Title: Re: Question on Student Etiquette, Re: Gunners, Unnecessary Commentary & Hypos, Etc.
Post by: LegalMatters on September 14, 2007, 06:57:35 PM
This goes against the long-standing tradition of blending with the group but I respectfully disagree with #4, in a few rare instances. A couple weeks ago, my property professor asked the class why the defendant from the case would want to split a parcel off a larger lot (he gets his jollies from this) and wouldn't move on until someone answered the question. It wasn't in the casebook. One of my classmates raised her hand, announced she had grown up in a rural area, and explained to us dumbfounded 1Ls why people do that.

But mostly people are observing the rules of pretending they never did anything before they entered law school.
Title: Re: Question on Student Etiquette, Re: Gunners, Unnecessary Commentary & Hypos, Etc.
Post by: JudgeRoyBean on October 06, 2007, 05:49:34 PM
You are wasting way too much time worrying about what other people do. Focus on yourself and what you need to do to suceed in class, not on what the guy who tries to B.S. his way through a case when its obvious he didnt read it is doing.
Title: Re: Question on Student Etiquette, Re: Gunners, Unnecessary Commentary & Hypos, Etc.
Post by: GGI on January 11, 2008, 11:00:02 AM
This certainly raises very interesting points (and it's so true!!)

If you wish to know more about etiquette for lawyers, have a look at the following website: www.chelseapublishing.com. Chelsea Publishing has published a book called Soft Skills for Lawyers which is proving very popular among law students and new attorneys. It aims to bridge the gap between law schools and law firms as far as attorney's behaviour is concerned.
Title: Re: Question on Student Etiquette, Re: Gunners, Unnecessary Commentary & Hypos, Etc.
Post by: one4theteam on September 05, 2008, 11:32:59 PM
I just started my 1L a few weeks ago and from my exceptionally limited time in law school, I've come to add one to the list of gunning gunning dont's:

1)  Don't be the gunner who participates every chance you get and then start off each of your blowhard comments with "I COULD BE WRONG, but I THINK...."  We know you think you're coming up with something even more profound and novel than what you just said two minutes before, and then two minutes before that.. Catch my drift.

Actually, I've got one more. 

2)  Don't be the gunner that gets up to go to the bathroom every 15 minutes, esp. if you are in the center of the front row.  At my school, this is the same person as no. 1.  But some people are of the philosophy that any attention is good attention. 

Title: Re: Question on Student Etiquette, Re: Gunners, Unnecessary Commentary & Hypos, Etc.
Post by: StevePirates on October 13, 2008, 11:12:28 AM
You should ask him in class if he gets up to go to the restroom so often because he has an enlarged prostate.  And tell him to get checked for prostate cancer.  Tell him you'll do it right then and there if he bends over and drops trou.
Title: Re: Question on Student Etiquette, Re: Gunners, Unnecessary Commentary & Hypos,
Post by: Bizarro Jerry on December 05, 2008, 08:56:24 AM
Your speech code would turn law school into a correspondence class from the University of Phoenix.

Quote
You are wasting way too much time worrying about what other people do. Focus on yourself and what you need to do to suceed in class
Title: Re: Question on Student Etiquette, Re: Gunners, Unnecessary Commentary & Hypos, Etc.
Post by: jalex519 on December 31, 2008, 09:05:34 AM
I enjoy gunners for the comic relief they provide, particularly when they come up with elaborate hypos, commentaries, etc. from far out of left field only to get shot down by the professor...