Law School Discussion

Law Students => Current Law Students => Topic started by: ray7 on March 18, 2006, 01:33:16 PM

Title: New York Law
Post by: ray7 on March 18, 2006, 01:33:16 PM
I am interested in going into a small-midsized firm or government agency out of law school. How are the job prosepcts at New York Law? Although I hear alot of criticism towards New York Law on this board, stats show that 93% are employed by 9 months after graduation which is not bad.
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: abclaw on March 18, 2006, 01:43:24 PM
Don't listen to the criticism.  NYLS provides excellent resources and an excellent education for those who want it.  Go to NYLS, work hard, you'll be fine.
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: ray7 on March 18, 2006, 02:07:37 PM
Thanks for the encouragement. However, if I fail to finish in the top of my class at NYLS does that make me "unemployable"?
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: abclaw on March 18, 2006, 02:19:01 PM
That's pure nonsense, and anyone who has said as much doesn't know what he or she is talking about.  The 93% statistic speaks for itself. 
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: ray7 on March 18, 2006, 02:31:32 PM
I totally agree. I have heard people on this board make such accusations as the statistics were made up or those that account for the employment rate were not emplyed in the legal field. I agree, those accusations are obsurd.

Do you attend New York Law by any chance?
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: abclaw on March 18, 2006, 02:58:17 PM
Yes - 2L. 

Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: ray7 on March 18, 2006, 03:00:38 PM
Great. Can you comment on the job prospects in general? Is there alot of on-campus recruiting? Where do most of the graduates go? How has your experience been thus far?
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: abclaw on March 18, 2006, 03:59:26 PM
I must say that the resources and support at this school are impressive.  Both last year and this year the OCI period was extended well beyond schedule due to increases in participating employers.  Last year, summer job opportunities were plentiful indeed, and everyone I know who wanted to work over the summer did so, in every field of law including clerkships, government, public, and yes, "biglaw" (although you will never hear that term used once you start law school).  There are clinical programs in criminal, securities, elder, mediation, and a few others I can't think of right now, which are a guarantee of legal experience before graduating.  There's also a judicial externship program.  Career planning support includes videotaped practice interviews with lawyers, many many seminars and guest speakers, and lots of networking events with the legal community and alumni. 

Given all that, any one who leaves this school "unemployable" has no one to blame but themselves.
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: ray7 on March 18, 2006, 04:13:14 PM
I notice that New York Law has a slightly harsher curve than most schools. Do you feel like the school attempts to "weed" people out or is more of a supportive environment? With the Comprehensive Curriculum Program I am surprised that anyone could be dismissed for academic reasons. Any comments on that?
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: lakrank on March 19, 2006, 02:51:26 PM
New York Law has its pluses and minuses. However, if you are concerned with getting a good education and having pretty good job prospects- I think it's totally fine. I am a 1L and in the upper half of my class (not nearly at the top), and I had a bunch of offers for summer employment (granted, I have really good work experience). The library SUCKS. They are building a new one and right now we have to deal with a temporary space. I, however, do most of my research online and most of my studying at home or elsewhere, so it's fine.
I think we have amazing professors, to be honest, and some of my friends at better school have been impressed by who teaches at NYLS.
What else? A lot of the people suck :) But I think that's everywhere- it took going to law school for me to realize why people hate lawyers :)

Oh, and the curve IS very tough.
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: ray7 on March 19, 2006, 03:05:59 PM
Is the curve cause for concern? Is it responsible for a percentage of the students being academically dismissed?
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: abclaw on March 19, 2006, 04:39:38 PM
I personally don't know anyone who was academically dismissed.  Yes, the curve is tough. The way it was explained to us is that if you fall below the B to B- range in a class, the curve free falls rapidly, so you could end up with a D even if you perform just a little worse than someone with a B-.  Last year, I think there were only 7 F's given for the whole school all semester.  The school definitely weeds out the lower end of the class, but what school doesn't?  Supportive environment?  Yes and no.  Yes, there are lots of support programs available, but there's no hand-holding going on here.  Your GPA is a hard number that will determine whether you go forward with the rest of your classmates or are relegated to the PLA group -- a stigmatizing distinction that is cause for great 1L anxiety. 
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: abclaw on March 19, 2006, 04:45:50 PM
Oh, and I agree about the library, but nobody uses those dusty old books anyway.  They are practically obsolete. 
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: ray7 on March 20, 2006, 07:00:01 AM
There are plenty of schools that do not attempt to weed out ANY part of the class. NY Law happens to have a pretty high attrition rate.
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: gettinwarmer on March 27, 2006, 09:14:10 PM
Sorry bud, but NYLS sucks absof**ckinglutely ass! Only a crazy would go to NYLS that charges $40K a year and has a bar passage rate of 61% ... you might just as well go to CUNY!
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: ray7 on March 29, 2006, 04:49:24 PM
Why are you hating on NYLS so much. They have a pretty good employment rate at 9 months after graduation and an average starting salary of about $80,000. Are these numbers fabricated? To be quite honest, I am considering NYLS but am somewhat skeptical due to the high lelvels of criticism towards NYLS on this board.
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: gcoswaltiii on March 29, 2006, 05:07:34 PM
I am looking at NY for an LLM in tax... Do any NYL students have any information about that or any interaction with LLM students???  I am unable to give any advice on the JD program but if you are having doubts and you are spending all this money to go then you need to be sure about it.  The truth is that LS is no fun anywhere but you need to be in the environment that you think will provide you with the most success for all of your hard work.  Good Luck...
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: LoverOfWomen on March 29, 2006, 05:55:36 PM
My law school is fun.

[image removed]
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: ray7 on March 30, 2006, 05:28:22 PM
Nice picture but time to be serious again lol. Take a look at Martindale.com. NYLS grads seem to be well represented.
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: LoverOfWomen on March 30, 2006, 05:41:00 PM
Nice picture but time to be serious again lol. Take a look at Martindale.com. NYLS grads seem to be well represented.

Yes, back to serious. ;)

Sure you can find NYLS grads on Martindale, but take a look at their bar passage numbers--64.3%, which is below the average for New York.  That means you have a good third of the class that's not even eligible to practice law (at least not in New York).  Then consider that average salary is mostly self-reported.  With these two factors in mind, you get a much less rosy picture.  Of course, like any third tier student, if you claw your way into the top 10% of the class, you definitely will have prospects.  But that's a big if.
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: ray7 on March 31, 2006, 09:10:53 AM
So are you saying all of those NYLS grads who are employed were in the top 10 % of their respective classes? Please. I think many people on this board loose sight of the big picture. At the end of three years we will have law degrees. A law degree, no matter your class rank was, and no matter the rank of the school, opens up many more doors, period. 
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: RootBrewskies on March 31, 2006, 09:36:09 AM
i dont understand the argument that so many people make abotu law schools creating unemployable lawyers.  if you look at even T3 and T4 schools they often have employement rates with 9 months of graduation of 80-95%.  that doesnt seem too unemployable to me.  there are also some that are usually not seeking a job or have gone on to some other type of education.  there may be a lot of lawyers out there but there still seems to be a need for a lot more of them.

i would venture to say that most undergraduate institutions these days would be thrilled to have numbers like that. 


people probably just say that cause at some schools the odds of you getting your dream job are slim.  but most people dont get their dream job right out of school.  put in a few years, then apply with some experience behind you, by that time your school wont even matter.
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: ray7 on March 31, 2006, 10:15:22 AM
Exactly. Take a look at martindale.com. In NYC alone: 3,000 law firms, 1800 corporate legal departments. Lots of opportunity.
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: LoverOfWomen on March 31, 2006, 11:07:01 PM
So are you saying all of those NYLS grads who are employed were in the top 10 % of their respective classes? Please. I think many people on this board loose sight of the big picture. At the end of three years we will have law degrees. A law degree, no matter your class rank was, and no matter the rank of the school, opens up many more doors, period. 

This is a joke.  There were more NYLS graduates employed than passed the bar.  Clearly, not of all those "employed" were actually working in a legal profession; flipping burgers at McDonald's counts.  I'd agree with your rosy picture if it weren't for the opportunity costs of time and money that students spend on a law school.  If you graduate in the middle of a mediocre school, you have effectively wasted thousands of dollars and three years.  Sure, you might get a job, but law is an extremely prestige-oriented profession.  Connections (one area where T3/4 lawyers are massacred), believe it or not, do matter; they may in fact directly impact your ability to advocate effectively.  There's a reason why SCOTUS clerks are so prized.  Indeed, if you look at any important legal case, it is almost always passed off to a biglaw or big name organization after making it through the regional hoops.  Your ability to try a big case, in other words, is directly tied to your academic record and the perceived caliber of your firm.

If you think it doesn't matter, visit a NYC biglaw firm sometime.  No matter how hard your TTT gunner works, the YHC (Stanford stays on the West Coast usually) kids are snickering and counting the cash.

Preparing for law school is a serious commitment.  If you don't have what it takes to get into a top-flight school and earn top-flight grades, go look for work elsewhere.  Stop trying to justify failure.
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: shaz on March 31, 2006, 11:35:46 PM
excuse me, but are you saying that less than top flight grades from a less than top flight law school equals a failure?  i bet there are many practicing lawyers that would not agree with you.  there are about 140 non-tier 1 schools out there.  most of these future lawyers would be failures in your book. 
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: LoverOfWomen on March 31, 2006, 11:42:35 PM
excuse me, but are you saying that less than top flight grades from a less than top flight law school equals a failure?  i bet there are many practicing lawyers that would not agree with you.  there are about 140 non-tier 1 schools out there.  most of these future lawyers would be failures in your book. 

Unless you consider speeding ticket cases or small-time bankruptcy to be "success," my answer stays yes.  And even for those rare "rainmaker" lawyers who find a big money lawsuit, they usually end up having to pass the goods onto a biglaw court.  There's a reason why HarrieTTT Miers didn't stand a chance at SCOTUS, while Alito's Princeton/YLS pedigree effectively let him sail.

All you've shown is that there are a lot of failures out there.  *shrug* C'est la vie.
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: shaz on March 31, 2006, 11:54:37 PM
biglaw isn't the end all be all.  there are many small and medium sized firms that pay well.  i know a lawyer who pays his associates about 60k + bonuses for their cases.  some of the associates make nearly 100k after all is said and done.  the only tier one in the office is his partner, a penn grad.  he told me his partner is a research genius but he can't litigate for sh1t. 
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: LoverOfWomen on April 01, 2006, 01:29:55 AM
biglaw isn't the end all be all.  there are many small and medium sized firms that pay well.  i know a lawyer who pays his associates about 60k + bonuses for their cases.  some of the associates make nearly 100k after all is said and done.  the only tier one in the office is his partner, a penn grad.  he told me his partner is a research genius but he can't litigate for sh1t. 

"Nearly 100k" is a ridiculous return given the opportunity costs of law school. 

As for the Penn grad, this only implies that Penn is worthless; I'm willing to accept that conclusion.  Anyway, one research nerd doesn't negate the fact that the movers and shakers in law nowadays are at least t14, if not t6. 
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: shaz on April 01, 2006, 02:34:12 AM
movers and shakers?  some just want to be lawyers.  opportunity cost?  many take the full ride at the tier3/4.  penn worthless?  penn is not worthless.  all i was trying to show was that the school does not necessarily make the lawyer.  take myself as an example.  i will be taking the money and going to a low tier2 on a full-ride (good standing).  i want to do ip, not because of the money but because i find it interesting.  i would be more than content with 60k.  i have always wanted to be a lawyer.  i have never qualified my aspiration with the words "rich" or "big-law."  the money is unimportant to me.  all i need is enough to pay off my small student loans.  after working for a number of years i plan to get an llm in ip from john marshall or depaul.  later i might attempt to start or improve an ip program at a 4th tier school like texas southern.  i feel that my goals are more than attainable.  my career will be both rewarding and meaningful to me, of this i have little doubt.  so what if i am not a mover or a shaker?  i never wanted to be one.  i just wanted to be a lawyer. 

the thing is you make sweeping generalizations about every law student.  you have no idea what their career goals are.  it is possible that their goals are quite modest in comparison to your own.  some may just want to be lawyers.  period.  they don't care if that means they have to chase every ambulance in queens or the bronx.  sure, some will struggle, but many will find success.  it may not be your idea of success but that's you. 

Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: LoverOfWomen on April 01, 2006, 03:21:25 AM
movers and shakers?  some just want to be lawyers.  opportunity cost?  many take the full ride at the tier3/4.  penn worthless?  penn is not worthless.  all i was trying to show was that the school does not necessarily make the lawyer.  take myself as an example.  i will be taking the money and going to a low tier2 on a full-ride (good standing).  i want to do ip, not because of the money but because i find it interesting.  i would be more than content with 60k.  i have always wanted to be a lawyer.  i have never qualified my aspiration with the words "rich" or "big-law."  the money is unimportant to me.  all i need is enough to pay off my small student loans.  after working for a number of years i plan to get an llm in ip from john marshall or depaul.  later i might attempt to start or improve an ip program at a 4th tier school like texas southern.  i feel that my goals are more than attainable.  my career will be both rewarding and meaningful to me, of this i have little doubt.  so what if i am not a mover or a shaker?  i never wanted to be one.  i just wanted to be a lawyer. 

the thing is you make sweeping generalizations about every law student.  you have no idea what their career goals are.  it is possible that their goals are quite modest in comparison to your own.  some may just want to be lawyers.  period.  they don't care if that means they have to chase every ambulance in queens or the bronx.  sure, some will struggle, but many will find success.  it may not be your idea of success but that's you. 

You're not counting time as an opportunity cost.  If you earn a full ride at a T3/4, you could have gone to better school with a more challenging program instead of evading it.  What a waste of time and talent.

If you are an unambitious loser who is interested in law, go be a paralegal.  Don't complain about high standards (which is what I am arguing for).  Law should be the purview of movers and shakers, not a clearinghouse for timid milquetoast clerks who just want to live "comfortably."
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: ray7 on April 01, 2006, 06:59:11 AM
Unambitous loser? lol It is hard to believe that any individual that decides to take on 3 years of law school is an "unambitous loser." Seriously, this guy is unbelievable. Like, I stated before, people like this guy loose site of the big picture and what is important in life. The average person would LOVE to be in our position right now, whether it is Tier 1 or Tier 4. Obtaining a law degree from any school is prestigous and an accomplishment. As for money, once you get that degree the possiblities and potential for success are endless. Once you get that degree, as long as you stay focused, determined, and ambitious, you will make your own success. Perhaps the above poster does not like the fact a tier 3/ tier 4 grad has just as much potential for success as a tier 1 grad. Maybe not directly out of school, but in the long run, certainly.
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: ep on April 01, 2006, 07:17:31 AM
Quote
Law should be the purview of movers and shakers, not a clearinghouse for timid milquetoast clerks who just want to live "comfortably."

A lover of women who appears to call herself a "mover and shaker" ... t'is is really funny! 
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: ray7 on April 01, 2006, 07:51:11 AM
haha I know. And who is trying to justify failure? Has anyone who is attending law school and come this far, "failed"? Open your eyes buddy, or get a friend.
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: LoverOfWomen on April 01, 2006, 09:07:53 AM
Unambitous loser? lol It is hard to believe that any individual that decides to take on 3 years of law school is an "unambitous loser." Seriously, this guy is unbelievable. Like, I stated before, people like this guy loose site of the big picture and what is important in life. The average person would LOVE to be in our position right now, whether it is Tier 1 or Tier 4. Obtaining a law degree from any school is prestigous and an accomplishment. As for money, once you get that degree the possiblities and potential for success are endless. Once you get that degree, as long as you stay focused, determined, and ambitious, you will make your own success. Perhaps the above poster does not like the fact a tier 3/ tier 4 grad has just as much potential for success as a tier 1 grad. Maybe not directly out of school, but in the long run, certainly.

What big picture?  I'm getting a fairly good return on my investment in law school; I enjoy it, I make good grades, and I'm well on my way to a nice biglaw office.  However, as you pointed out, there are many, many other schools (T3/4) where this is not the case.

There is a ceiling on how successful your T3/4 graduate can be.  Limitations of intellect, work ethic, connections, opportunities, finances, etc. directly relate to the law school experience.  Believe it or not, some people are just not cut out for law no matter how determined they are.  There's no reason to suppose that the majority of T3/T4 students who enter with mediocre stats, graduate with mediocre stats, flunk the bar, and fail just about every indicator of legal training will magically transform into cutting-edge lawyers just because they wish really, really hard for it.  If you take a look at SCOTUS, every single one of those justices has a t14 degree.  If the Roberts and Alito confirmations show any trend, it is one towards greater prestige orientation, not less.  Are there exceptions to this?  Sure.  But those are the exception, not the rule.

Believe it or not, law is, almost by nature, a prestige-oriented profession.  There's a reason why lawyers show up to court in full suits and not jeans (even if you can argue quite effectively in more comfortable clothing).  Appearances matter.  Credentials matter.  Prestige matters. 

Unfortunately, a lot of T3/4 grads don't learn this lesson.  As a result of glut from people who don't belong in the legal profession, law isn't what it once was.   The Harris Poll, which measures public perceptions of prestige, has shown law facing the most severe drop as a "prestigious" profession.  People have met with T3/4 lawyers and assume that all lawyers are TTT hackjobs.  Hence credentials become even more important--being a lawyer isn't good enough anymore and so the cycle reinforces itself, all to the detriment of gullible "fake picture" Pollyannas like you. 

I'm actually looking out for you.  If you don't have what it takes to get into a decent law school, go do something else.  Bill Gates, for example, did fine without an academic degree because he didn't need one.  Maybe you aren't cut out for law.  So?  Find something else.  It'll save you the trouble of slitting your wrists later as you watch leading lawyers snatch all the prizes and leave you with only hollow illusions.
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: abclaw on April 01, 2006, 09:20:59 AM
total a-hole
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: ray7 on April 01, 2006, 09:31:08 AM
absolutely. An a-hole as well as VERY, VERY narrow-minded.
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: LoverOfWomen on April 01, 2006, 11:24:48 AM
absolutely. An a-hole as well as VERY, VERY narrow-minded.

VERY, VERY focused and VERY, VERY rich as well.
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: catamount27 on April 01, 2006, 11:51:28 AM
This posting board is an interesting study in human behavior under perceptions of anonymity. Loverofwomen's view, while possibly a widely held view among T14 students (although hopefully not), is probably not an acceptable view in the legal field. The anonymity is a necessity for this user, because there are probably a handful of judges in his jurisdiction that did not go to a T14 school- or maybe he plans on spending his career out of a court room settling cases for large fees.

This may be a an accepted view, however, at "biglaw." The lawyers that go into public interest may not graduate from top law schools. Thus the obvious cracks and crevices in American society.
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: ray7 on April 01, 2006, 11:56:09 AM
HAHA. Not good enough to defend your statements obviously. As a result, you were forced to change the subject by bringing up your own financial situation. Not a sign of a good lawyer at all. Where did you go to law school, Concord School of Law?

Don't be bitter because some tier 3 or tier 4 graduate who is more likeable, has a better personality and better networking skills, is going to make just as much or even more money then you.  
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: LoverOfWomen on April 01, 2006, 12:19:47 PM
HAHA. Not good enough to defend your statements obviously. As a result, you were forced to change the subject by bringing up your own financial situation. Not a sign of a good lawyer at all. Where did you go to law school, Concord School of Law?

Don't be bitter because some tier 3 or tier 4 graduate who is more likeable, has a better personality and better networking skills, is going to make just as much or even more money then you.  

What was there to defend?  All you did was ad hom me by calling me an a-hole.  You didn't make an argument; you gave up the argument and just went for a personal attack.  You changed the subject, moron.  Furthermore, you run a pretty little performative contradiction by immediately trying to associate my supposed argumentative deficiency with a TTT law school.  By your own admission, TTTs are inherently inferior and produce inferior students.  Thanks for playing.

I'm not at all threatened by T3/4 grads who are charismatic and host great cocktail parties.  Odds are this person won't even pass the bar.  Again, thanks for playing. 
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: ray7 on April 01, 2006, 01:05:24 PM
Oh comeone, follow the argument please. You are claiming that tier 3 students are failures and those who do not shoot for big law are unambitious losers. I say this is false and have hard evidence to back it up. You just seem to run your mouth without anything to back it up. I never said that tier 3 schools are producing inferior students. I simply stated it is a slightly easier road for tier 1 students due to reputation of the institution. Perhaps your reading comprehension schools aren't up to par. Might want to work on that.   
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: LoverOfWomen on April 01, 2006, 10:36:02 PM
Oh comeone, follow the argument please. You are claiming that tier 3 students are failures and those who do not shoot for big law are unambitious losers. I say this is false and have hard evidence to back it up. You just seem to run your mouth without anything to back it up. I never said that tier 3 schools are producing inferior students. I simply stated it is a slightly easier road for tier 1 students due to reputation of the institution. Perhaps your reading comprehension schools aren't up to par. Might want to work on that.   

WHAT HARD EVIDENCE?

They are "employed" months after graduation?  So what?  Most people with a bachelor's degree can get a job shoveling fries at Mickey D's. 

A friend of yours has a really successful law firm where the only bad litigator is some UPenn nerd?  Big deal.  Anecdotes aren't evidence, and besides, I already conceded that there are exceptional[/b] cases.  I'm sure if you dropped Clarence Darrow in a T3 school, he'd still be successful.  But face it--T3/4 students are those who have basically flunked all metrics and can't get into a better school OR inexplicably avoid the challenge (don't even give me "but they got a full ride" because anyone in their right mind would count the other opportunity costs as well). 

A good portion of the graduating class of a T3 school can't even pass the bar.  That means they can't even earn the minimum qualification to practice law in that state.  Show me how many successful lawyers don't pass their bar after dumping money into a law school degree.  This doesn't even count the significant drop-out rate at toilets like Cooley.

Beyond this, you and I have a very simple disagreeement over what constitutes "success" in a field.  You seem to think that continued mediocre performance should be commended.  I don't.  Law is not like medicine--it is a hierarchical profession where there are clear leaders (t6, maybe t14) and clear losers (most T3/4 grads).

The prestige of lawyers has been declining for decades, as measured by the Harris Poll.  That isn't because of top-flight lawyers like John Roberts or Sam Alito.  It's because most lawyers people meet are TTT ambulance chasers who presume to think they are in the same class as Roberts/Alito thanks to some TTT J.D. degree.
Title: ..
Post by: daddy loves you too on April 02, 2006, 06:43:52 AM
absolutely. An a-hole as well as VERY, VERY narrow-minded.

VERY, VERY focused and VERY, VERY rich as well.

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1555835201.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)


Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: LoverOfWomen on April 02, 2006, 08:27:17 AM
Swell moderation policy.  ::)

Obviously pictures of women would be prohibited by the complaining misogynists.  ::)
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: ray7 on April 02, 2006, 01:45:01 PM
It's really unfortunate you feel tier 3 grads are bringing down the prestige of the profession. There are many tier 3 grads who go on to be very successful and do alot of good. My hard evidence are employment rates and sites like martindale that show many tier 3 law grads with fine jobs. Also, you need stop with this flipping burgers at mcdonald's thing you keep bringing up. It's rediculous you keep using that in your argument. It doesn't happen. You are clearly making that up.

However, yes, I do believe your definition of success conflicts with the next person's definition of success. While you are probably comparing lower paying jobs in the legal profession to flipping burger at mcdonald's, many people who have these jobs sincerely, enjoy their work. Some people are very content with these positions, while others use it as a stepping stone until they make their next career move and go forward. After a certain number of years, what "class" you are in is defined by your success in the field and work experience. Sorry to burst your bubble.
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: LoverOfWomen on April 02, 2006, 09:36:46 PM
It's really unfortunate you feel tier 3 grads are bringing down the prestige of the profession. There are many tier 3 grads who go on to be very successful and do alot of good. My hard evidence are employment rates and sites like martindale that show many tier 3 law grads with fine jobs. Also, you need stop with this flipping burgers at mcdonald's thing you keep bringing up. It's rediculous you keep using that in your argument. It doesn't happen. You are clearly making that up.

It does happen.  When I was working over 1L summer at a biglaw office, an associate there was talking about how embarrassed he felt to run into a guy he knew (in college).  The guy went to a T4 and couldn't find a job afterwards.

If you want to settle for less and talk about TTT jobs being "fine", that's your call.  I prefer not to trump up unambitious losers.

However, yes, I do believe your definition of success conflicts with the next person's definition of success. While you are probably comparing lower paying jobs in the legal profession to flipping burger at mcdonald's, many people who have these jobs sincerely, enjoy their work. Some people are very content with these positions, while others use it as a stepping stone until they make their next career move and go forward. After a certain number of years, what "class" you are in is defined by your success in the field and work experience. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Contentment has nothing to do with success.  I've met content janitors.  It doesn't make toilet-scrubbing prestigious.
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: T. Durden on April 02, 2006, 10:41:37 PM
i'm a GT 1L who is blowing town for the summer and have just rented my apartment out to a 2L SA in DC

in response to my ad for sublet i received close to 20 responses

i was *blown away* by pedigree of law student who is able to find work in DC over the summer

of the 20 responses that i received, ONE was from outside of the T14 (Tulane). The remaining 19: several stanfords, 4 or 5 yales, 3 or 4 harvards, dukes, uvas, boalts, NYUs, etc.

love him or hate him - loverofwomen is correct to a certain extent. at least in the beginning stages, this profession is one built upon prestige and reputation. i had no idea it was so severe until i put this little ad up....
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: LoverOfWomen on April 02, 2006, 10:44:09 PM
i'm a GT 1L who is blowing town for the summer and have just rented my apartment out to a 2L SA in DC

in response to my ad for sublet i received close to 20 responses

i was *blown away* by pedigree of law student who is able to find work in DC over the summer

of the 20 responses that i received, ONE was from outside of the T14 (Tulane). The remaining 19: several stanfords, 4 or 5 yales, 3 or 4 harvards, dukes, uvas, boalts, NYUs, etc.

love him or hate him - loverofwomen is correct to a certain extent. at least in the beginning stages, this profession is one built upon prestige and reputation. i had no idea it was so severe until i put this little ad up....

Thank you.  The Tulane grad might also have benefitted from the general post-Katrina diaspora. 
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: T. Durden on April 03, 2006, 09:11:10 AM
3 more today: 2 NYUs and a UMich

Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: ray7 on April 03, 2006, 10:48:51 AM
Just because these people were able to find work in Washington DC does not mean that tier 3/tier 4 grads cannot find work. This does not defend loverofwomen's argument.
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: T. Durden on April 03, 2006, 11:23:03 AM
i didn't include this information as a means to establish the entirety of lover's argument. certainly numerous members of T3s and t4s go on to be successful, productive, and well-respected members of their respective legal communities. to suggest otherwise would be to turn a blind eye to teh realities of the current legal market. however, at least within certain circles (i.e. DC, which is, admittedly, a non-representative sample of of the overall whole) criterion such as school reputation, ranking, and prestige, are seemingly paramount to any other consideration. 

i did not think this was so until i placed my apartment advertisement. this advertisement is made available through a service to all incoming 2L summer associates who will be working in DC over teh summer. i think that it is relatively safe to say that it establishes a somewhat accurate cross section of who can find employment (for a summer associate position) during the summer months in DC - virtually all have been t14, most have been t10, none outside t1.

who knows. maybe my sample is horribly skewed. could be possible - just not probable.
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: Leaf2001br on April 03, 2006, 03:54:04 PM
If your definition of success is tied to dollar signs, you will never be happy, and thus never successful.  What exactly are you looking to purchase that justifies you as a success?    Success is measured by your own happiness and how well you cultivate relationships with people.  Therefore, I think everyone would agree LoverOfWomen has demonstrated a personality that prescribes failure.

If I had to bet my last dollar, I would say ray7 is destined to be happy and balanced, and LoverOfWomen is on the path to envy and emptiness, relying on outward impressions of wealth to compensate where his personality has created a deficit.  This never has worked and it never will.
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: lipper on April 03, 2006, 09:09:35 PM
just a note about where tier 3 students find summer jobs. As a tier 3 student, I, too, did not find a job in Washington DC. Personally, if I did, i think i would shoot myself. Instead, I "settled" on working in Manhattan.
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: T. Durden on April 03, 2006, 09:36:00 PM
i can't get over this - today: 3 NYUS and 2 Stanfords.

Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: LoverOfWomen on April 04, 2006, 01:21:35 AM
If your definition of success is tied to dollar signs, you will never be happy, and thus never successful.  What exactly are you looking to purchase that justifies you as a success?    Success is measured by your own happiness and how well you cultivate relationships with people.  Therefore, I think everyone would agree LoverOfWomen has demonstrated a personality that prescribes failure.

If I had to bet my last dollar, I would say ray7 is destined to be happy and balanced, and LoverOfWomen is on the path to envy and emptiness, relying on outward impressions of wealth to compensate where his personality has created a deficit.  This never has worked and it never will.

I don't think deluding yourself about the consequences of mediocrity is the foundation for a "happy and balanced" life.  Nor is pretending you have  a "last dollar" to bet.

Wealth has a direct relation to happiness, because wealth allows you options and opportunities.  Face it--a lot of doors close when you're poor.  A lot of doors close when you're unprestigious.  Now maybe you can play the sour grapes game and pretend that you never wanted those choices in the first place.  But I would much rather have the choice to go lounging at my favorite club or summering in the Hamptons than worrying about consolidating debts or budgeting my finances. 
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: michelle my belle on April 04, 2006, 07:32:53 AM
I have applied to NYLS and I'll go there if they admit me.
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: JDG on April 04, 2006, 08:05:55 AM
Already admitted by NYLS, but I'm leaning towards St. John's, although I've heard not-so-good things about the latter ..
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: ray7 on April 04, 2006, 08:20:07 AM
Loverofwomen, get out of this bubble you live in and face reality. I don't know where you grew up or if you had any friends as a child, but most people I know would hardly consider a 24 year old attorney, making 65,000-70,000, poor and unprestigous. You have the nerve to call someone who is attending a tier 3/4 school a failure? The problem here is you are a social misfit who has probably never really even seen someone who has truly "failed" (dropped out of high school, substance abuse). Unambitious losers? I am 21 years old and will be attending law school next year, something I, as well as most people I know, consider to be extremely ambitious. The truth is loverofwomen, you represent a small, small, portion of the population that holds such feelings. Truth be told, people like you need to re-evaluate what is good in life, and consider how lucky we ALL are to be, where we are now.  
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: LoverOfWomen on April 04, 2006, 08:42:24 AM
Loverofwomen, get out of this bubble you live in and face reality. I don't know where you grew up or if you had any friends as a child, but most people I know would hardly consider a 24 year old attorney, making 65,000-70,000, poor and unprestigous. You have the nerve to call someone who is attending a tier 3/4 school a failure? The problem here is you are a social misfit who has probably never really even seen someone who has truly "failed" (dropped out of high school, substance abuse). Unambitious losers? I am 21 years old and will be attending law school next year, something I, as well as most people I know, consider to be extremely ambitious. The truth is loverofwomen, you represent a small, small, portion of the population that holds such feelings. Truth be told, people like you need to re-evaluate what is good in life, and consider how lucky we ALL are to be, where we are now.  

$65K should be spending cash, not your starting salary.  I frankly don't care what the people in your social circle consider prestige; if they are awed by the tallest of the pygmies, that's really not my concern.  Furthermore, whether or not a "small, small, portion of the population" agrees with me or not is irrelevant; perhaps you've heard of the bandwagon fallacy?  Citing more people who share your precious opinion doesn't suddenly transform it into fact.

I'm perfectly content to see things as they are, rather than relying on false comfort to avoid the specter of failure.  It keeps me motivated and probably will make more successful than any of your associates.  Sorry, but life is about the survival of the fittest; the self-deluded (like you) voluntarily excise themselves from the competition and ultimately, that just makes it easier for people like me.  So keep patting yourself on the back, slugger. 

But while you do, try learning to use the comma correctly.  Just a little helpful note from yours truly.
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: ray7 on April 04, 2006, 08:50:20 AM
Happiness, prestige, and even amount of spending money I have, is not fact moron. It is in the eye of the beholder. That is what everyone is trying to say. That is ok though, keep on thinking that the status of your school, job, and money you have is all that matters in life. Man, I feel bad for you at this point.
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: LoverOfWomen on April 04, 2006, 08:55:04 AM
Happiness, prestige, and even amount of spending money I have, is not fact moron. It is in the eye of the beholder. That is what everyone is trying to say. That is ok though, keep on thinking that the status of your school, job, and money you have is all that matters in life. Man, I feel bad for you at this point.

I can see what Ruskin saw in commoners like you.  The cliched "eye of the beholder" statement is nevertheless quite profound.  Unfortunately, it applies more precisely to beauty and to truly appreciate beauty, you must necessarily have wealth.  Wealth provides the leisure of contemplation which can appreciably improve the quality of one's life.  I'm sorry, but one's "school, job, and money" do matter--not ends in themselves, of course--but as a means to a more fulfilling life.
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: lipper on April 04, 2006, 10:27:43 AM
Lover - where are you from?
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: Leaf2001br on April 04, 2006, 12:45:01 PM
Did you just call someone a "commoner"?

Freaking awesome.  This just gets better all the time. I have never seen someone try as hard to compensate as you.  You are as detached from reality as they come.  Like the above poster I am becoming fascinated with you.  Please tell  us about yourself:

Play any sports?  Favorite countries visited?  What are your friends like?  Do you have friends?  Any meaningful relationships with real live flesh and blood people?  Were you abused?  What was high school like?  Where do you hang out?  Do you masturbate a lot?  Most embarrassing moment?  One true love?  Favorite music?  Why in hell would you want to spend time in the Hamptons?  Do you have a website?  Do you play an instrument?  Why do you like this message board SO much when no one likes you (I'll give you the benefit of understatement here)?  What do you do with the fraction of your day left over after bickering with strangers on the internet (and porn)?

Please share.
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: Leaf2001br on April 04, 2006, 01:00:16 PM
Oh come on, you wily Lover Of Women, you.  It's been five minutes.  Respond already!  Are you taking a porn break?  Engaging in your richly rewarding life outside of this message board?  No, on second thought I guess that wouldn't be mathematically possible would it?  Well nevermind about the having a life bit, that might have been a bit of a stretch.  Just hurry back and placate my curiosity or I'll have to do something drastic like work on an outline.
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: LoverOfWomen on April 05, 2006, 06:27:22 AM
Did you just call someone a "commoner"?

Freaking awesome.  This just gets better all the time. I have never seen someone try as hard to compensate as you.  You are as detached from reality as they come.  Like the above poster I am becoming fascinated with you.  Please tell  us about yourself:

Play any sports?  Favorite countries visited?  What are your friends like?  Do you have friends?  Any meaningful relationships with real live flesh and blood people?  Were you abused?  What was high school like?  Where do you hang out?  Do you masturbate a lot?  Most embarrassing moment?  One true love?  Favorite music?  Why in hell would you want to spend time in the Hamptons?  Do you have a website?  Do you play an instrument?  Why do you like this message board SO much when no one likes you (I'll give you the benefit of understatement here)?  What do you do with the fraction of your day left over after bickering with strangers on the internet (and porn)?

Please share.

I think you're taking an unhealthy interest in me, but I'll amuse you.

I play tennis and golf.  My favorite country is the U.K.; I'm really quite the Anglophile.  Most of my closest friends are from college and most of them share my aesthetic philosophy.  I've only been occasionally abused by the odd philistine who doesn't know Monet from Manet.  I attended a dull, moralistic prep school.  I'm not telling you where I hang out.  I masturbate from time to time.  My most embarrassing moment was listening to some old bag talk about her cancer; she was hideous and it was distressing to see something so ugly.  "One true love" is a ridiculously bourgeoise cliche; I don't believe in restricting love or any other emotion.  I find Wagner's opera divine.  The Hamptons are an excellent place for leisure and leisure is the highest human good.  I find the creatures here amusing.  In my remaining time, I usually sleep, dabble with paints, go for walks, have wonderful conversations, constantly indulge beauty and pleasure, and on occasion, complete some trivial assignment.

Oh come on, you wily Lover Of Women, you.  It's been five minutes.  Respond already!  Are you taking a porn break?  Engaging in your richly rewarding life outside of this message board?  No, on second thought I guess that wouldn't be mathematically possible would it?  Well nevermind about the having a life bit, that might have been a bit of a stretch.  Just hurry back and placate my curiosity or I'll have to do something drastic like work on an outline.

What would you know about the "mathematically possible"?  I'm no mathematician, but I don't think you are either.

And why are you working on an outline?  Organizing information is simple and tedious.
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: T. Durden on April 05, 2006, 11:16:51 AM
I think this thread could benefit with some commentary regarding biglaw. A biglaw associate position is by means some sort of golden ticket to perpetual happiness and career sucess within the legal profession - instead biglaw lawyers are described as the single most unhappy group of workers within the generally malcontent American workforce. When presented with anonymous surveys, biglaw lawyers from across the country answered resoundingly (over 50%) that they regretted their decisions to enter the field of the law and now wished that they could change their careers entirely. Over half (within biglaw) responded that if given the choice again, given what they know now, they would never have gone to law school in the first place. Over a third of lawyers (in general) are alcoholic, depression and various other mental disorders are manifested within the profession 2 to 3 times that which is seen within normal society (it is uncertain as to whether the profession exacerbates whatever underlying latent propensity a certain individual might have or that the profession attracts those with these disorders) - the divorce rate amongst biglaw lawyers is the highest in the nation - higher than those amongst NAVY SEAL units, which I personally find unbelievable, given that seals are off six months at a time slitting throats in some unheard of country on the other side of the globe - those within big law complain of "golden handcuffs", i.e. the money in biglaw is virtually unparalleled anywhere else in the profession, in order to maintain a certain lifestyle that is expected of the attorney by family members the attorney (and to meet whatever financial obligations which have been taken up by the attorney) the attorney is virtually "locked" into the big law mold by financial pressures - the average partnership track is now 11 years, which, given the attrition rates, means that only an incredibly small percentage of all first associates ever make to partner status (less than 1% now) - simply stated biglaw is no guaranteed ticket to legal succcess, or to "mover and shaker" status

Last week I went to a reception for a biglaw firm here in DC. The people looked exactly as you'd expect workaholics to look like: tired, pale, pudgy, generally unhealthy - when asked what they did outside of work for fun, I received several chuckles and confused looks. They have a gym at the firm, they have a bar at the firm, they have dinner at the firm - life is the firm. When asked about the merits of working in-house, the attorneys mocked their in-house equivalents, openly expressing disdain for the fact that they everyone left around 5:30. These are some of the realities of the profession that we are goign to become invovled with. Certainly if you want to get ahead in this country you have to work hard. I'm not contesting that idea - but the thought of billing 2100-2400 hours for 10  years so that I may make "partner" and thus become ever more "successful" sounds like a dangerous mode of living - I like to think that I my career motivation lie elsewhere.

All of this being said, biglaw positions certainly pay well and undoubtedly open doors. There is a reason that the nation's top law students flock to DC and NY every summer to partake in the recruitment programs offered by these firms. I for one plan on working at one of these firms for several years, hopefully no more than 3, but realistically around 5, so that I may 1) pay off my HUGE student loan debt, 2) build the necessary resume credentials for a transfer into in-house work and 3) learn about the legal profession in a fast-paced,  hard-working environment. I think of it as something akin to residency in medicine. Work like a slave for several years, learn how to be a professional, and move on to something else where the mode of living is a little more reasonable.

But this idea that attending a T20 is a ticket to biglaw which is then some sort of magic carpet ride to the land of happiness and pink cotton candy is completely wrong - the majority of those involved in biglaw hate their lives, their jobs, and their prospects. This is a sad reality of our profession. Those of us who are headed for biglaw need to be wary of these pitfalls and need to be certain that we don't fall victim to the "golden handcuffs"....       
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: abclaw on April 05, 2006, 08:42:58 PM
My most embarrassing moment was listening to some old bag talk about her cancer; she was hideous and it was distressing to see something so ugly. 

He's obviously a sociopath.

Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: RootBrewskies on April 06, 2006, 07:14:23 AM
You're not counting time as an opportunity cost.  If you earn a full ride at a T3/4, you could have gone to better school with a more challenging program instead of evading it.  What a waste of time and talent.

If you are an unambitious loser who is interested in law, go be a paralegal.  Don't complain about high standards (which is what I am arguing for).  Law should be the purview of movers and shakers, not a clearinghouse for timid milquetoast clerks who just want to live "comfortably."
[/quote]


who says one school is more challenging than another?  if anything ive heard about ivy's having inflated grades.  grads have told me, without a doubt the most difficult part of harvard is getting in. 

i know alot of grads from ivy's and top schools all around and the smartest guy ive ever met went to wvu. 
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: exponential on August 15, 2006, 01:08:02 AM
[removed]
Title: Re: New York Law
Post by: Dip827 on August 16, 2006, 04:13:52 PM
Already admitted by NYLS, but I'm leaning towards St. John's, although I've heard not-so-good things about the latter ..

i've actually heard a lot of good things about st. johns, and i would go there over NYLS.