Law School Discussion

Law Students => Online Law Schools => Topic started by: aloha737pilot on February 05, 2006, 03:37:40 AM

Title: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: aloha737pilot on February 05, 2006, 03:37:40 AM
My guilt and shame have been exposed and now I feel better since "Duckasourus" has posted the truth about distance learning law schools. I have applied to a major online law school hoping that no one would find out because I would be exposed as the uneducated person that I am.  I have decided not to accept the enrollment at the online law school because Duckasourus said it is a worthless degree. I will respect his opinion and give up my job and move to a location where I can attend a full time, ABA approved law school just so my rather eloquent and supremely intelligent friend, Duckasouras, will approve. I suppose I should just give up on my desire to get a law degree. I am so glad you posted your intelligent input on this forum, Duckasouras, you have saved me from the stigma of being a lesser law student than you. I hope you do well in your law studies, and after you get finished with remedial English, remember, Torts is not a dessert.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: jacy85 on February 05, 2006, 08:02:35 AM
You little rant was actually rather entertaining...

But on a serious note, what exactly do you want to do with your law degree?  Are you getting it for personal or business reasons?  It just doesn't make any sense to spend the time and effort to get a degree from an online law school that you can never use to practice.  If you don't want to practice though, then I guess it could be different.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: aloha737pilot on February 05, 2006, 01:48:35 PM
As you can see from my earlier post I am not a traditional law student. My reasons are varied and not at all driven by the desire to practice big money law. What makes you think someone getting their law degree online could not practice anyway? I already have offers of employment from people who know me and what I am capable of. Sure they don't know anyone who has done their law degree online, but neither do I. The key here is that they know me and would welcome me as an attorney when the time comes. I am not leaving my airline job until I reach 60, so if they don't mind hiring me then, maybe I'll think about it.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: J D on February 05, 2006, 01:56:35 PM
What makes you think someone getting their law degree online could not practice anyway?

Because in most states, you will not be allowed to sit for the bar exam or be admitted to the bar without a degree from an ABA accredited law school.  California ia a notable exception; if that's where you intend to work as a lawyer, more power to you.  But if you want to work virtually anywhere else in the US, it will be a very tough row to hoe (some states have provisions for reciprocity once you've been admitted to the bar in one state, but it might take a couple years before they'll give that kind of recognition and allow you to practice in their state as well).
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: jacy85 on February 05, 2006, 03:42:26 PM
J D answered the question you asked.  You can't practice law if you don't pass the bar.  It follows that if you're not even elegible to sit for the bar, you won't be able to practice law.  Which is why I wondered if you wanted to use it for business or something that isn't "practicing."
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: Bobo on February 05, 2006, 04:43:32 PM
As you can see from my earlier post I am not a traditional law student. My reasons are varied and not at all driven by the desire to practice big money law. What makes you think someone getting their law degree online could not practice anyway? I already have offers of employment from people who know me and what I am capable of. Sure they don't know anyone who has done their law degree online, but neither do I. The key here is that they know me and would welcome me as an attorney when the time comes. I am not leaving my airline job until I reach 60, so if they don't mind hiring me then, maybe I'll think about it.

Just curious (i.e. not trying to be confrontational), but why would you want to go through the trouble of going to law school (whethere it is ABA approved or not) just because you may or may not practice law when you turn 60?  I assume that the degree will add little value to your current job as a pilot, and there is a chance that you might not pass the bar (assuming you live in one of the handful of states that allow one to sit for the bar with a non-ABA degree).  Plus, you will have to be paying bar fees for all those years that you aren't practicing (the other option would be to take the bar when you are 60, but that could be decades after you graduate since I am assuming you won't be 60 for a while).  I just don't see the sense in it.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: aloha737pilot on February 05, 2006, 11:08:48 PM
I think I have a different reason for wanting to study law than traditonal law students. It may also help that the veterans administration is going to pay for the JD I am undertaking. Now check to see what online JD's are approved for veterans benefits, and you have me nailed down. I would not be able to study law otherwise for a number of reasons. I work full time, and the only law school in our state does not have a part time program. I am with a company that has just gone through chapter 11 and is now emerging as a totally changed entity. I want to be in the process instead of on the outside looking in. I simply want to educate myself.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: duckasourus on February 06, 2006, 02:31:37 PM
Being a pilot is a very important job. It is one that can not, and should not be preformed by everyone. You take offense to the statement that online law schools are substandard, but wouldn't you be equally alarmed if I purposed to get my commercial pilots license on the internet. Just as it is important that a pilot be properly trained, the same is true with an attorney.
 
When people step on to your plane they put their lives in your hands, and in a less dramatic sense when clients step into my office they do the same.  Being an attorney means standing in place of a person that is effectively helpless in the legal system and making sure their rights are fairly adjudicated. The ABA does the best it can to make sure that they produce attorneys that are capable of doing just that.
 
Don't be mistaken, there is an immense amount of stigma that is attached to getting your degree from a school that is not approved by the ABA. A score of 170 on the LSAT is impressive, but once you have your degree no one cares about your LSAT.

If my Dr went to Harvard medical school and online law school, I would go to him for surgery but not for legal help.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: aloha737pilot on February 07, 2006, 12:48:23 AM
The ABA does not produce lawyers, law schools do. The ABA is an organization that has it's own members protection in mind, much like the Airline Pilots Association. There are many non ABA approved law schools in states other than California that are approved by the local state bar. Only half of the lawyers in the US are members of the ABA. Why is that? I can actually attend a non ABA approved law school in Massachusetts and practice law in Connecticut or New York. Online or non ABA approved, I don't need anyone’s else's certification other than the school I attend, the state bar, and myself.

To equate the learning of law with learning to be a pilot online, obviously you know very little of pilot training. Actually most of the book work and testing for pilot training can be accomplished online. The practical skills cannot. I wonder if it is possible to learn legal concepts online and then the practical skills after one graduates. Hmmmm, interesting concept. From what I've heard, most of what you learn in law school is getting you ready for the bar exam, not for the practice of law. Most of the practical skills are learned after law school.

One of the law firms in Los Angeles that I used to have a part time job with a number of years ago, big law firm, has on their staff a number of associates from non ABA law schools. A few of the associates who graduated from ABA approved law schools had a lot of trouble passing the bar. The partners invested in Bar prep tutors to get some of them through on their second try, and even had to do it again for one on his third try. Ever heard of this happening at other law firms? I'll bet it does.

 

Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: brewha on February 07, 2006, 03:56:25 PM
my knocks on an online school: 1) Chances are any reputable firm would toss an application bearing the mark of an online school into the "Not Currently Needed" pile, 2) You don't network with your peers sitting behind a computer, 3) You would miss out on functions such as law review and moot court (and other journals), 4) I'm sure there are more, but BlueBooking has fried my brain...

On the bright side, if you are looking to go start your own practice the first "knock" on online schools is not applicable (However the networking would really help you out when you go on your own).
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: lipper on February 07, 2006, 06:35:35 PM
Aloha737pilot:

wow - u are an arrogant prick. It seriously has gotta be awful walking around life having the issues you have. Your posts say a lot about you. nobody cares how much you make, what you did in the military, or how much your pension is. people are giving you constructive criticism(sp?), advice, etc. and you go off like a bat outta hell, ranting and raving about your accomplishments.

wow, i really do not like people like you.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: Bobo on February 07, 2006, 06:42:41 PM

One of the law firms in Los Angeles that I used to have a part time job with a number of years ago, big law firm, has on their staff a number of associates from non ABA law schools. A few of the associates who graduated from ABA approved law schools had a lot of trouble passing the bar. The partners invested in Bar prep tutors to get some of them through on their second try, and even had to do it again for one on his third try. Ever heard of this happening at other law firms? I'll bet it does.


Why would a large law firm pay three times for someone to take the bar?  I doubt very many large law firms would even want to keep first year associate who didn't pass the bar, especially if they failed it more than once.  I am also don't think large law firms recuit from non-ABA schools.  The hand few of attorneys that I am aware of who graduated from non-ABA schools had a successful practice before the large law firms hired them.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: sdlaw on February 07, 2006, 08:15:00 PM
My firm would never hire a non aba school (we would never even hire a bottom tier), big firms in California only hire from top tiered law school, and at that top ranked students from those, as far as failing the bar I know of NO firm who gives any associate more than two attempts at the bar. 
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: aloha737pilot on February 07, 2006, 11:13:43 PM
Lipper, pay attention to the thread. It all started because of the comments by Duckasouras. If you call all his posts on the distance learning board constructive criticism, you have the problem. I didn't make ignorant attacks on non-traditional students. Brewha, you also need to pay attention to the thread. I don't need to have all the bells and whistles, just the education, the diploma, the bar exam, and that's it. I will worry about the rest. Why is it that you folks that go through the traditional path have such disdain for people who choose the non-tradional path. Bobo, you said it yourself that there are non-ABA graduates at your firm. It doesn't matter how they got there, they are there. SDlaw, how do you know what every law firm in LA does? You also backed me up by saying that they give the associates two chances. Why wouldn't a compassionate boss, like the guy I used to work for, give someone he really liked a third try?

The way I see it is that the law profession is a backwards thinking field by necessity. Lawyers rely on what has happened in the past to accomplish everything they do. Every once in a while someone gets to set a precedent. The study of law hadn't changed much since the 1700's when about midway through the twentieth century law study was changed from a first level degree to an advanced degree. Know any lawyers with an LLB? I'll bet you do. The guy I used to work for in LA got his LLB. In certain places in the country you can still "read the Law." An apprenticeship to being a lawyer is still possible. Justice Marshal, Supreme Court Justice, read the law for one month before being admitted to the bar. Yes it was a long time ago, but why is it not sufficient for people to study online for four years, pass the baby bar, which none of you take, and then the California bar? The way I see it is the study of law online is now setting a precedent. Like it or not, we will see it continue to grow with all of the ABA approved law schools, slowly but surely. I am sure you all have received great educations and are great lawyers, but what is it that bothers you about someone choosing a different route?
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: aloha737pilot on February 08, 2006, 04:19:58 AM
Lipper

I had to address you directly. You don't know me so I guess you are making your judgment based on what you read on this thread. Go back and read all of the posts from Duckpoofaceasaurous and see if he makes any sense at all. If you think he makes sense then we will call it even right now and I will not argue with you anymore. It will be you two against me and I will submit to the superior opinion. You are less likely to say you do not like a person if you actually tried to understand what was being said and where they are coming from. Not that I give a flying fart what you think of me, but look backward, as lawyers do, to the preceding posts to see what was said. I pointed out my particular accomplishments to show an ignorant individual that his blanket statements about distance learning law students were unfounded and not well researched. You have to hand it to Duckassasourass, he knows how to open his mouth and let nothing intelligent come out.

Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: voice of reason on February 08, 2006, 09:03:00 AM
Aloha, what is your problem?  For the most part, these people have been trying to give you useful advice.  When you shun them and flaunt your own achievements, you look like a fool; not only because you view their criticism as unfounded, but also because you assume that your intelligence outshines the collective opinion of the board. 

If your posts are any indication of your personality, it is sad that as a traditional student many years younger than you I am more mature than you as a 42 year old.  Many older students have always bothered me in the classroom, and you illustrate this point perfectly.  Those that come from a career back to school often carry a chip on their shoulder.  You seem to think that with your age comes some sort of infallible wisdom.  Your life experiences don't mean *&^% in the classroom, sorry.  No one cares when you raise your hand and talk about your kids, your last career, etc.  I am not bashing all older students, just the ones that believe age brings superiority.  I have the utmost respect for those that make the hard choice to further their education.

ONLINE LAW SCHOOL IS NOT A GOOD IDEA.  Get that through your head.  Law schools, at least the decent ones, are not in existence to teach to the bar exam.  That's what a bar prep course is for.  Law school is to teach you to "think like a lawyer", not give you a set of rules to memorize for an exam.  This is achieved through the Socratic Method, whether you agree with it or not, and it cannot be attained digitally.  Do you think the opinion of everyone on this board can be wrong?  Why do you think they are warning you time and again?  Is it because they are whores to the ABA, as you suppose?  These are people in law school that realize that the same effect could not be acquired online.  I'm sure many of them would agree that other degrees such as an associates degree are better suited to a digital format.  They have no vested interest in seeing you fail.  I'm sure many of them could care less whether you get a law degree, they just wanted to give you some constructive criticism.  Just as you bashed duck for not knowing much about pilot training, you seem to know very little about lawyer training.

The "stigma" of an online law degree will follow you the rest of your life.  Its not enough to pass the bar exam and even get a job, you have to bring in clients and have them trust you.  I know several people close to me that are involved in lawsuits, both laypeople and lawyers, so I asked them some questions.  Each and every one preferred an ABA accredited lawyer to one that was not.  Each and every one preferred a non accredited lawyer that attended a brick and mortar law school to a lawyer that "attended" a virtual one.  This is not a coincidence.  You WILL be last in the pecking order.  I'll leave you with a quote from a friend when asked about if they would use the services of an attorney that received their degree online:

"I'd rather die in a fire than trust my life or money to someone that went to law school online."
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: sdlaw on February 08, 2006, 10:54:57 AM
I agree totally law schools teach you to think like a lawyer, barbri teaches you to take the bar, also I question your alleged 170 lsat, with that type score money would not be an issue as most schools would give you a scholarship.  As far as my comments about 2 attempts for the bar, thats only for biglaw, no small to medium firm will give you that chance and no biglaw will hire a non aba (insurance company wouldn't let us even if we wanted to)
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: aloha737pilot on February 08, 2006, 12:20:41 PM
Is that what all you people are doing on the distance education law school board, doling out your advice to the unfortunate ones who are about to make the worst mistake in their life? Why don't you go find another board to mess with. I personally don't need your advice if you haven't gone through a distance program. Who are you really, "Voice of Reason"? Newbie with one post just decides to weigh into this board like all the other good advice givers.

What is it that makes it so hard to understand that this is the decision that is made by many people every year that are highly intelligent, to get educated through the wonders of the internet. If I were so concerned about pecking orders and who would rather die in a fire than hire a lawyer that got his JD from an online school, I would do the same thing you all are doing. But don't you get it by now, I don't care about those things, never have, never will. What I care about is that I have the knowledge and expertise to become an active member in my union and help to keep the corporate hatchet men from tearing our company apart like they recently have.

If you would like to offer some constructive advice and criticism, and have the expertise and experience to know what you are talking about, I'd love to hear from you. I would also like to see some of you go back to the beginning of the thread and see what the fuss is all about. I have tried to keep in the context of "Duckasouras" attacking every posting on the distance learning board.

Voice of reason, if you found it necessary to go to a brick and mortar law school, I applaud your efforts. It isn't easy to do. That is why lawyers are held in high esteem in most social circles. They are looked upon as highly educated, somewhat elite members of our society. I know many lawyers, partners and associates alike, and have great respect for them. Not one of my own friends has even mentioned that I would be making a mistake to do what I am doing. They know why I am doing it and they know my situation, and they know me. I did have a partner at one firm tell me he has influence at our local law school, when I explained to him I didn't want to stop my life to go to law school, he offered his office and his assistance whenever I needed it. Supportive friends will make it all the more meaningful.

So you see, in summation, I am a distance learning law student, feel free to look at me with whatever negative feelings you may harbor, it is your right. I will look upon an individual who has made the effort to educate himself, whether a lawyer or not, with the respect he deserves. If he comes after me with ignorant personal attacks and mindless drivel because he has a problem in his life, I will offer an answer in response.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: voice of reason on February 08, 2006, 01:03:11 PM
Who am I really?  Certainly not a newbie, just someone that reads the board often but hasn't felt compelled to actually register and post stuff until you arrived.

At this point, not many people are giving you constructive criticism.  That is because of the way you come off.  No one cares that you were in the military and I'm certain that no one asked or cares about what you make a year or your pension.  In fact, you are speaking to a group where many will graduate law school and make more in their first year than your highly touted "six-figure" salary that you make at 42.  It doesn't work to brag in a room full of highly successful people.

Oh, and I like how you say that I "found it necessary" to attend a physical law school, as though an online law school is the superior choice or even confers equal benefits.  You speak with arrogance, and that makes people dislike you.  Law school is not something you can do in your spare time, or even something that you do for fun or mere knowledge.  It is a professional school, designed to train a person to be a lawyer.  If you treat it any other way, you are simply wasting your time and money (or in your case, someone else's money).

I'd also like to call bull on the alledged 170 LSAT.  Knowing that you wanted to attend an online law school, why would you try so hard?  Attaining a score of 170 requires a ton of time, hard work and dedication.  Something tells me that a person with a career, family, and what I would describe as a passing interest to study law does not have these things.  And I doubt the 170 just came naturally to you, a cold score of 170 is next to impossible.  Of course there is no way for me to verify this one way or another, so I won't bother to go on.  But I do smell bull.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: duckasourus on February 08, 2006, 01:21:00 PM
aloha is an idiot he is full of crap and just keeps saying lies about how good he is and how he is mr macho but reality is he couldnt get into any law school, is losing his hair, is having a mid life crisis, and probably should not be in charge of an air craft with his mental state, I mean he recommended the army to a drunk, do not get me wrong I LOVE THE TROOPS but they tend to be a non sober group (i dont blame them tho)
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: duckasourus on February 08, 2006, 01:23:52 PM
\What I care about is that I have the knowledge and expertise to become an active member in my union and help to keep the corporate hatchet men from tearing our company apart like they recently have.

didnt ur company go BANKRUPT so u should stop talking
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: aloha737pilot on February 08, 2006, 01:46:30 PM
I love this board. Who has the problem, Voice? Does it bother you that I mentioned to Duckasouras that I had a background that certainly didn't qualify me as "too dumb to get into an ABA approved school"? I pointed out a few things that might create an image in his mind that maybe he was wrong about what he said, nothing was meant as bragging. If you took it as bragging, then I should possibly reconsider next time I mention these things in this forum.

How do you read into my congratulations to you that I was demeaning your choice to attend a physical law school? My God, listen to yourself man. And you read into it that I thought online law school was the superior choice? You are now telling me that law school is not something you do for fun or mere knowledge or in your spare time. I am sure it isn't. I will tell you that it won't be in my spare time, it will take four years of every available minute I have to study. It won't be for fun either, I would rather be out surfing or doing other fun stuff. But if I so choose to do anything for the mere educational value, this is not alright with you? If I waste my time, and my hard earned educational benefits, this matters to you?

You may smell something, but it isn't coming from my post. If you can't believe that someone with a high LSAT isn't going to go to a regular law school, then believe what you want to believe. Nothing I can say will change your mind. By the way, it did take time and effort to get a good score, you are right about that. I was advised to take the test when I started looking into studying law. Did I say somewhere that I took the LSAT "cold"? Or are you just reading that in yourself?

You need to consider whether I have the problem or if you are bothered by me. If I bother you, then you have the problem not me. I don't care if you like me or not. Keep coming back here to chat, I don't mind.

I rest my case about Duckasouras based on the previous two posts. By the way Duckasouras, how did you know I am losing my hair? Are you watching me? Scary........
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: duckasourus on February 08, 2006, 02:01:50 PM
you know u didnt get into a real law school, no one here believes a 170 lsat scorer would go to a fake law school.  We dont believe you so quit kidding yourself!  You are old, dumb, and really shouldn't be flying.  At least you told us which airline not to fly (by revealing just out of bankruptcy) I wont name it for fear of a libel suit but will not fly it for fear my life would be in your hands.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: voice of reason on February 08, 2006, 02:06:18 PM
In all honesty, I really don't like you.  But it isn't just me-it's everyone on this board, no one is exactly jumping to your defense here.  Against that background, it seems that the problem lies with you.  

I never said that you actively demeaned my choice to attend a physical law school.  I was pointing out that your tone is arrogant, the main reason why people don't seem to like you here.

I did not "read in" that you took the LSAT cold and got a 170.  I anticipated the two arguments that you could set forth to defend your 170 and refuted them both.  
1. I did a ton of preptests, studied my ass off and got a 170.  Not likely, with a family and career.
2. I took it cold and got a 170 because I am brilliant.  Not bloody likely.

Thus I feel you are full of *&^%.  It seems you are the man with infinite resources.  You got all this time to take LSATS, have this INCREDIBLY PRESTIGIOUS flying career, have a family, and spend 4 years getting a law degree that you admit is not remotely close to a necessity.  And still have time to spend on this message board, interesting.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: sdlaw on February 08, 2006, 02:35:21 PM
I so choose to do anything for the mere educational value, this is not alright with you? If I waste my time, and my hard earned educational benefits, this matters to you?


YES IT DOES, to take my profession so lightly insults me, it would be like saying video game players should be pilots because they spend hours playing flight simulator games.  I dont care if u waste your time and money becoming a fake lawyer but what I hate is when you would then try to call yourself a lawyer just as you would hate my 7 yr old cousin calling himself a pilot just bc he can on xbox.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: aloha737pilot on February 08, 2006, 03:00:22 PM
Voice, I can see I am upsetting you so I will keep this one short before I go to work. I really thought you might have been a worthy adversary, but if you have to resort to "full of (doo doo)" comments to make your case, I'll have to go back to Duckasouras, as much as I would feel like I am picking on someone’s dimwit little brother.

The term you use to describe my career, "INCREDIBLY PRESTIGIOUS", again those are your words not mine. There may have been a time and day that this was true, but it wouldn't be nowadays. So many pilots are leaving this profession I could hardly call it incredibly anything other than unstable. I do have time to do lots of things. But right now I have to run off to work. I'll be back later tonight, so let's chat again. By the way, you certainly are spending an inordinate amount of time here also. Do I get to you that much? Keep the cards and letters coming.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: voice of reason on February 08, 2006, 03:11:27 PM
Adversary?  You and I aren't in the same league, I'm certainly not competing against you in any way.  With your job going down the crapper and all, why don't you take your "170 LSAT" to a top law school and change careers.  Can't you think of a better mid-life crisis than online law school?  Go buy a Corvette or something.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: sdlaw on February 08, 2006, 03:28:07 PM
by making a joke out of my profession you are talking to me.  You need to take your fake lsat score and go into bankrputcy with your career.  If I was your daughter I would be ashamed of you and your midlife crisis, but somehow I am guessing while you were "traveling" your wife found the ups man so I guess she isn't really your daughter.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: duckasourus on February 08, 2006, 03:34:10 PM
dont bother going to work aloha, I bought a flight simulator game for my computer with a joy stick so I can get that real world experience you talk about so in 40 minutes I will be a pilot. 
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: lipper on February 08, 2006, 05:24:14 PM
im sure this has been said on this thread somewhere but -

HOLY SHEET ALOHA!! HOW ARE YOU SO IGNORANT AND BLIND?!?!?! if you go to an online law school you are cheating yourself out of a wonderful experience. The thing about law school is, it doesn't teach you how to BE a lawyer. It teaches you how to THINK like a lawyer. When you get out of school, then you learn the law. The law that we learn in law school is a generalized law, taken from all juridictions. The socratic method only reinforces this concept of thinking like a lawyer. By going to an online law school, you are robbing yourself of something valuable. what about oral arguments? Moot court? All things that are just not feasible with an online law school. By not participating in these, you are not only cheating yourself, but your prospective clients as well.

I'm sure this is hard to take, as i can tell from your demeanor on here, you think you know everything. But trust me, being a lawyer is more than being able to draft motions, complaints, answers, etc. Who cares if the format is correct(which is what we dont learn in law school), if the actual substance is a pile of cow dung. Further, law school also teaches how to build legal arguments, something that is begun by reading/briefing cases, but is mastered in the classroom.

I guess an online law school can get away with a decent legal writing course - as you could email your work, to get comments and a grade back - but beyond that, an online property or contracts course?? I dunno, i wouldn't want to work with anyone who hasn't gone through and completed what I've been through.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: aloha737pilot on February 09, 2006, 02:58:14 AM
Oh, boy, you kids have been busy while I was away. Mouth, I mean Voice of Reason, let me answer you first. I wish you had been more of an adversary, but you are right we are not in the same league, regrettably. I didn't look at our adversarial relationship as competition, but as more of a test of our skills of argument. The system of justice in the US is an adversarial system, is it not? How better to advance your skills than to engage in a healthy argument that is guided by decorum and proper English. A little friendly banter never hurt anyone. I can understand now why some of you visitors to the Distance Learning Law School Board have chosen to make the personal attacks that you have. I really do believe that you feel I have attacked your dimwit little brother Duckasouras. He is one of you isn't he? I didn't mean to pick on the lowest common denominator of your group. It still pains me that I have to go back to picking on him, because he is not much of an intellectual challenge. It is like having a battle of wits with an unarmed man. All that aside, the only other explanation for you getting so upset with me is that, and I am talking to you, Voice, I have evoked a stimulus in your seldom used and most likely atrophied "fight or flight instinct." It feels funny in your stomach when you haven't felt it in such a long time, maybe since childhood, huh, Voice? Well the usual reaction is to repeat yourself a lot and to start to use profanity when you can't think of anything else to say. It is understandable when your physiology is not used to handling that feeling very often. It troubles me to think that the other symptoms of the infrequent "fight or flight" feeling is that you get a lump in your throat and your eyes well up with tears. This would not be a good thing for a lawyer to experience in court up against another lawyer who is a worthy adversary.

SDLaw, I told you to go to your room, no one is interested in what you have to say.

Duckasouras, jeeze buddy, I could have sold you a flight simulator. I hope you didn't pay too much. I got mine from a garage sale and boy did it help me out. By the way, weren't you in the movie, "The Ringer". "Hi, my name is Duckasouras, I like Apples."

Lipper, you are the man of the evening. Except for your opening statement I believe everything else you have to say. Do you really believe I am ignorant and blind? I have great eyesight I assure you. The ignorance thing I will leave up to you to decide. You  make many valid points and I applaud you for acknowledging that an online law school may be able to get away with a decent legal writing course. It is apparent that we think so much alike that I don't want to argue with you. The law school experience is something that I wish I had decided on a long time ago. Before I retired from the Marine Corps I had just as much law school info in my bookcase as flight school brochures. Since I already had a pilot’s license, I decided to go to finish all my commercial ratings. I was employable in six months. It would have been very rewarding, I'm sure, to have gone the other way to law school. It is not in my power now to drop everything to attend a brick and mortar law school full time. If only my local law school had a part time program. I would be all over that in a heart beat. I have made the decision, just like all of you, to pursue the study of law. My terms include doing it online, not quitting my job, and relishing in the fact that I will learn something that is considered a higher calling to many people, the law. Thank you for your time. Good night.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: lipper on February 09, 2006, 05:18:11 AM
good luck.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: duckasourus on February 09, 2006, 08:02:19 AM
you claim I am soo dumb but the truth is I got in a REAL law school, something you could never do.  I will sleep good at night though because I know you will never pass the baby bar much less the real bar and therefore will never practice law.  I just pray your never my pilot because I dont think you could handle anything more than running out of peanuts.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: voice of reason on February 09, 2006, 08:31:22 AM
I like the attempt to explain the fight or flight instinct.  Unfortunately, this response cannot be evoked by an online message board.  Much like the adequate learning of the law cannot be acquired online.  Yes, it is a strange and wondrous invention, but it has its limitations.  I know this is hard to comprehend, since the closest thing you had to a computer when you were young was a record player.

Anyway, I started out trying to reason with you, but it's like speaking to a brick wall.  Do you find it strange that you are 48 and on a message board, defending an online law school and making fun of the mentally disabled?  Go spend some time with your wife, if anyone was stupid enough to remain married to you.  Have fun wasting 4 years of your life.  When you get those pangs of regret, just remember all of your friends on the LSD message board.  Some were mean to you, but they were right.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: aloha737pilot on February 09, 2006, 12:36:25 PM
Good morning all. Voice you are ever so disappointing. Your argument has petered out and you have left the game after more petty personal attacks. Good morning Duckasouras, would you like an apple? Thanks, Lipper, hopefully the next fours won't require the luck factor, but I'll take it when I can get it.

If anyone ever feels the need to come back to visit on the Distance Education Law School board, feel free. Please try to leave your personal attacks and blanket statements at the door.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: voice of reason on February 09, 2006, 02:14:33 PM
Hey, no problem, we can continue arguing in circles.  Doesn't it concern you at all that no one on this board supports your decision besides yourself and perhaps other distance education people?  Exactly how hard does logic have to slap you in the face before you take notice?  In a community full of intelligent law students, everyone believes you are making a poor choice.  Are you really so arrogant as to think that you are smarter or more capable than EVERYONE?
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: duckasourus on February 09, 2006, 02:16:37 PM
its ironic you try to call me retarted when in fact your doing the retarted thing by spending money on a fake law school.  Go have a midlife crisis somewhere other than law school, you mock all people who go to law school by claiming your better than us, and well I would love to see your 170 bc I smell some bull *&^%
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: Bobo on February 09, 2006, 03:38:50 PM
Why does everyone keep feeding this fire?  Isn't it evident that Aloha is a tool/troll and should be ignored?  I mean he says "Please try to leave your personal attacks and blanket statements at the door" after having made a couple personal attachks and blanket statements in that very same post.  Just ignore him and hopefully he will go the way of Chris Laurel (unless that is him reincarnated).
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: aloha737pilot on February 10, 2006, 02:24:41 AM
Bobo, my young friend, you are correct in discouraging the previous posters, who I shall not name, so as to avoid encouraging a response. One of them correctly identifies the intention of the Distance Learning Law School Board, to encourage distance learning law students to support each other. This would tend to exclude any unwanted logic from unwelcome sources who know nothing of the motivations of distance learners. The other poster has obvious issues with not only gaining approval here, but gaining approval from outside this board. If you ever read any of Chris Laurel's posts, which I did, you would recognize his uncanny ability to piss anyone off with his relentless zealousness about the evils and deeply seated dark and foreboding side of law school. I can assure you I am not Chris Laurel. If you look at some of my responses to Chris Laurel, he pissed me off. And as you can already tell I have great patience for mindless blather, just not Chris Laurel's mindless blather. I think going to law school at a brick and mortar, ABA approved, Socratic Method teaching law school is great, just not for me. Go forth and seek legal enlightenment, and come back to visit this board when you have some genuine constructive criticism. I can take it, I promise.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: Mesquite on February 11, 2006, 02:18:36 AM
I have to agree with 737.  There is nothing wrong with an online JD. Not all of us can attend an brick and mortar school.

Regarding the employability of someone with an online or other non traditional legal education, there is one well known man who did quite well going the non traditional route:  Abraham Lincoln.  He studied on his own.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: aloha737pilot on February 11, 2006, 04:13:35 AM
Mesquite, welcome to the Distance Education Law School board, where we fellow distance law students can learn from each others experiences and contribute to the overall great experience of studying law. Lincoln is my hero, by the way, but John Marshall, I believe the third Supreme Court Chief Justice "read the law" for one month before being admitted to the bar, obviously an exception to the rule. Other Supreme Court justices of the time read the law for up to four years before being admitted to the bar. The four year time frame sounds a little more realistic. Anyway, it is a pleasure to have you on board. Please don't hesitate to post questions or experiences, or anything you can offer. At times your postings may be subject to the unwanted advice or ridicule of people who don't have the same motivations as we distance learners. Don't be discouraged by it, and rest assured that we recognize the source of the ill will toward our new and innovative method of law study. It shouldn't take long before most of them take a distance learning law course themselves, and realize that the study of law is more dynamic than they ever thought.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: Texas on February 11, 2006, 07:02:17 AM
anyone who believes that you cannot get as good of an education online vs. in class...is either deceived, or simply hasn't attended law school yet.

Sitting in class does nothing to teach you law...especially when you are having to listen to those in class, who spent less time reading than you did, fumbling around trying not to look stupid. Then there are those who just don't get the law but don't realize it...so they are always volunteering in class when in fact they have nothing to offer.
In fairness there are days when the teacher may explain a particularly thorny issue (such as the Erie Doctrine) but then anyone who didn't understand that via the case law could have read the same explaination in the E&E.
Whether or not employers are ready to recognize Distance Learning is a different issue, but really, the least effective portion of my law education occurs in class...


Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: aloha737pilot on February 11, 2006, 02:27:59 PM
Texas, I have taken graduate classes online and in the classroom and some were good and some weren't. The early attempts of some instructors to do an online class were not that well conceived, but nowadays the technology is great. Classroom attendance is good with a professor who shows up all the time and is prepared to teach. I hated when I drove to school only to find the professor could not make it. It didn't happen very often, but it sure doesn't happen online. The fellow students who feel the need to totally dominate the professor's time with endless questions and personal anecdotes can wear you down pretty quick. I look forward to taking some electives later on in the program from other law schools online and in residence.

I read about the Erie Doctrine in some of my recent reading before entering the program. I think I get to look at that more next year in Civil Procedure, for me it is a 2L class.

Thanks for your post.     
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: spanky jonez on February 11, 2006, 03:48:41 PM
I think with a DL law degree you are selling yourself short.  Law school is more than just about class time.  Other than classes law schools offer:

-An alumni network
-Moot court
-Law review
-Career services
-A sense of community and belonging
-A library
-Guest speakers and all sorts of programs and symposiums
-Study groups
-Motivation to attend class (due to professors noticing absences)
-Actual office hours with professors

Plus, with an ABA school your chances of passing the bar are far greater, employment prospects are better.  And finally, while professors may be archaic, that is something that you will encounter with judges.  Students might say stupid things, but so will co-counsel.  Being in a classroom environment will help you prepare for and tolerate these things.

If you graduate from an ABA school you can practice anywhere, not one of the handful of states that allow for non-ABA degrees.  Also, I would venture a guess that the caliber of students are traditional schools is far higher than that of DL schools, and thus quality the debate and class discussion will be far greater.

Now, I am not saying that there are people who can benefit from a DL law school, and even a couple that might pass the bar.  But to say they are the equivalent of brick and mortar schools is false.

Also, when Marshall did his apprenticeship, barbers were also doctors, and would bleed people and apply leaches.  That doesn’t make it applicable today.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: brewha on February 11, 2006, 03:54:34 PM
Valid points are being made on both sides (no I am not referring to any of the baseless name calling or conclusory statements that seem to haunt this thread).  Like Texas pointed out above, there is definately an issue with potential employers recognizing the value or worth of an online education... but this detriment can be disregarded if you are pursuing a law degree for the reasons pilot has expressed.  I attend a brick and mortar law school in Chicago and I have to say, attending class is next to worthless.  As was pointed out above, a good portion of the class period is spent listening to those few students who love to hear themselves talk, but have very little substance, or relevance, behind any statements they make (I'm sure we all can relate to 2 or 3 of those students).

My biggest knock on distance schools is the lack of interaction with your peers.  Networking for your legal career is done in class and out of class in social functions with your section.  I believe that it would be very difficult to build any kind of lasting relationship with "classmates" that you may share a chat room with, or however those classes are run.  Again, if you already have established a solid network of contacts within your profession, this point could be disregarded.  

I actually have no idea why I chimed in here, other than boredom from researching my LRW assignment... but there's my 2 cents.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: aloha737pilot on February 11, 2006, 09:48:57 PM
-An alumni network (Agreed, online schools are new, alumni network small)
-Moot court (Does everyone at brick and mortar school participate in Moot Court?)
-Law review ( "     "       "   "    "    " 
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: duckasourus on February 12, 2006, 10:08:15 AM
But there are advantages to those people who choose the DL programs,

UM NO, the price may be less but you are paying for a fake degree, and you live in Hawaii but your degree will NOT let you practice there so its a waste of time and money.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: aloha737pilot on February 12, 2006, 02:39:14 PM
Hi Ducky,

How is it going buddy? I guess this thread wouldn't have it's name if it weren't for you. It just wouldn't be the same if you didn't grace us with your wit and wisdom every once in a while. Keep us on our toes by dropping in every once in a while, will you? By the way, your nickname, Duckasouras, were you going for a sort of funny sounding dinosaur type of name? Shouldn't you have spelled it Duckasaurus? The other way is pronounced duck-a-SOUR-us. You aren't sour, you're SPICY.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: lipper on February 12, 2006, 03:26:35 PM
You aren't sour, you're SPICY.

LOLOLOLOLOL!!!
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: duckasourus on February 12, 2006, 06:20:29 PM
i have a license to practice law and can go to any state i want, which is something your sour ass can never do!!!!
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: aloha737pilot on February 12, 2006, 07:07:13 PM
To all who shall see these presents, greeting: Know ye that reposing special trust and confidence in the patriotism, valor, fidelity, and abilities of "Duckasourus" I do appoint him/her as "Special Counsel" for the Distance Education Law Schools Discussion Board, to rank as such from the twelfth day of February, 2006.
This "Special Counsel" will therefore carefully and diligently discharge the duties of the office to which appointed by doing and performing all manner of things thereunto belonging.

And I do strictly charge and require those counselors and other personnel of lesser rank to render such obedience as is due a counselor of this grade and position. And this counselor is to observe and follow orders and directions, from time to time, as may be given by the President of the Distance Education Law Schools Discussion Board, or other superior officers acting in accordance with the laws of the Distance Education Law Schools Discussion Board.

This commission is to continue in force during the pleasure of the President of the Distance Education Law Schools Discussion Board under the provisions of those public laws relating to officers of the Distance Education Law Schools Discussion Board and the component thereof in which this appointment is made. In accordance with the by laws of the Distance Education Law Schools Discussion Board, this appointee will be entitled to "Special Counsel" parking at all Chuck E. Cheese's restaurants nationwide.

Done at the City of Frostbite Falls, this twelfth day of February in the year of our Lord two thousand and six.

By the President

Rocket J. Squirrel, Esq.



   
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: duckasourus on February 13, 2006, 08:09:33 AM
im sorry if u have a fake degree, I love my real degree and hate that idiots try to get a fake law degree but I can go to any state and take the bar there, you can NOT take the bar anywhere you want from a fake school.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: duckasourus on February 13, 2006, 11:29:11 AM
you must go to a really crappy law school bc although I agree there are some peeps who talk forever wo knowing what they are saying or what a case is about, in class participation is still very important.  I am guessing from your posts your at a tier 4 or online school and although alot of time in class may be wasted its still much better than a fake law degree online.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: Texas on February 13, 2006, 02:25:01 PM
you must go to a really crappy law school bc although I agree there are some peeps who talk forever wo knowing what they are saying or what a case is about, in class participation is still very important.  I am guessing from your posts your at a tier 4 or online school and although alot of time in class may be wasted its still much better than a fake law degree online.

actually, it is a T3 school Duckasoreass...maybe that makes it better than some options, maybe that makes it worse than other options...I guess it comes down to the individual reasons that all of us have for going...

You might be happy to know that we do have a few students at that school who are just as bitter about life as you are though...

But really duck, why are you the self-appointed savior of all those who might choose a different option than you chose?

We all have misgivings about other options. I could have gone to a tier 1 school, but in this state the difference in job opportunities did not justify the extra 100K I would have had to borrow...does that mean it is wrong for others to go that path...of course not. Some want to pay the extra money for the "prestige" of that name. Others might discount my decision, but at my age I didn't want to take a 30K risk as to how good my 1L grades would be. Turns out they may be good enough to get me into a T14 school...or I may still decide that I don't want the debt. Either way there are +s and -s.

Same with DL - there are pros and cons...but once someone weighs those, and chooses DL for themself, why do you feel the need to harass them over the decision? It is one thing to help inform people as to the negatives of DL, it is another thing entirely to demean their decisions to go that route...

As long as you maintain doing the latter, your views will continue to have the same credibility lack of credibility that they do now...
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: Nontradstudent on February 13, 2006, 07:17:05 PM
I will jump into the fray as well.  Perhaps the best articulated complaint against DL is that there isn't any networking with peers.  There actually is quite a bit. We meet for classes and discussion online with a professor in real time. There are also small groups of people who may meet in person to study together. I also get quite a bit of help from attorney friends.   DL students, at least at NWCU, have an letter from the school requesting library priveleges at law libraries.  I have never had any trouble using any of the libraries at law schools in the Bay Area.

I think many on this board are tired of people who are not students at DL schools posting here with the intention of degrading DL.  If you don't like DL degrees, fine, don't get one.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: aloha737pilot on February 14, 2006, 03:12:07 AM
I'm glad you showed up Nontradstudent, it is good to see someone else is out there, probably just as amazed at the ignorance and intolerance of some people as I am. Our friend Texas is a breath of fresh air to speak the less popular truth from his side of the fence. I suspect that he is not someone who does something because everyone else is doing it. He seems like a person who thinks for himself and can recognize that intelligent people make choices and don't care what others think.

Isn't it great that this board gets so much input from people who are not DL students? What possible reason would they have for spending all their time on this board attempting to degrade people, other students of law, who have decided to take a different path than they did? I have the greatest admiration for anyone who chooses to advance their education through whatever means. Law study is a higher calling, and the general public views legal professionals as somewhat of an elite group. It is not good when the legal students, not yet legal professionals, start to consider themselves elite. 

I hope the few people who have continued to make their feeble assaults on this board don't discourage other DL students from participating. I will be here to answer any questions that I may answer for any DL student that has a question. If I can't answer their question, I will try to find someone who can.

I really do like hearing from students at traditional law schools who have input that is useful to the distance learner. The less than helpful should be happy to be in law school and content with their personal choice to study law. I would feel good about it if I was in their place, but I would not consider myself superior to anyone. I would feel humbled to be in the footsteps of the many intelligent, successful legal professionals that have gone before me.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: duckasourus on February 14, 2006, 06:01:18 AM
its not that I feel better than you as much as I am insulted you make a joke out of becoming a lawyer.  By claiming a non ABA school is just as good as an ABA law school is just ridiculous.  Does Concord try to become ABA approved, you bet, but they can't.  Look at the bar pass rates from non ABA schools and you will see the simple truth that their students are not smart enough to pass the bar.  PS I got my pilots license through a spam email so I will be flying next to you any day now. 
Title: all this discussion
Post by: VirtualJD on February 14, 2006, 11:28:16 AM
Ignorance and intolerance aside, Concord students did arrange for Justice Scalia to speak to the Concord student body last year.  Ignorance and intolerance are at the root of a number of social ills and with time those that are ignorant and intolerant are forced to change or become closet bigots

Up to a point, the school you attend does make a difference.  I've spoken with people in a number of professions, including the law, who got their jobs because of the school they attended.  It wasn't that they went to a top 10 or top 25 school.  It might have been a T2 or T3 school and they got the job because they attended the same school as the hiring partner.  After you've got the job, in law as in many fields it doesn't matter if you attended Harvard or Concord, the degrees or certifications you hold carry much less meaning than your ability to do the job and do it well.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: duckasourus on February 14, 2006, 11:34:50 AM
I agree after you get a job your school doesnt matter as much but firms can never ignore a non aba degree.  The simple truth is that malpractice insurance is extremelly expensive and fake law degrees only make that price sky rocket.  There are soo many bad law schools that are still ABA that the people who can not get into them have no business being in law school.  You may disagree with me but look at the bar passage rates from fake schools.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: Texas on February 14, 2006, 02:22:10 PM
I agree after you get a job your school doesnt matter as much but firms can never ignore a non aba degree.  The simple truth is that malpractice insurance is extremelly expensive and fake law degrees only make that price sky rocket.  There are soo many bad law schools that are still ABA that the people who can not get into them have no business being in law school.  You may disagree with me but look at the bar passage rates from fake schools.

What is really sad is that the guys over on XOXO have found this thread, and even they think you are losing this discussion...
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: duckasourus on February 14, 2006, 02:46:02 PM
you are obviousoly an old bitter man who is now trying to get a fake law degree.  Act your age and go have a midlife crisis with Aloha, if you want I have a great site to get a fake pilot license.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: aloha737pilot on February 14, 2006, 02:57:16 PM
A poem, by Duckasouras

My name is Duckasouras and I come here to say,
My ignorance is abounding and it grows with every day.
If I ever had an original idea, I can't remember when,
Life is just so difficult, I wish I had a friend.
Until the day I find a friend, I guess I'll stay right here,
And spread my mindless blather and be a general horses rear.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: duckasourus on February 14, 2006, 03:19:55 PM
would you like me to post aba pass rates vs fake pass rates, you can argue with me all you want but the numbers dont lie.  Non aba means no chance of being a lawyer although Mcdonalds is hiring.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: duckasourus on February 14, 2006, 03:27:30 PM
as for ignorance, I got in a real law school, I did not make cracks at mentally challenged people you did (well I guess I did by making fun at the fake law peeps) and well yes your trial at a fake law degree which YOU CAN NOT USE IN YOUR STATE makes no sense to me.  I gave you great advice, middle age men need to buy a corvette not a fake law degree.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: Texas on February 14, 2006, 03:32:15 PM
you are obviousoly an old bitter man who is now trying to get a fake law degree.  Act your age and go have a midlife crisis with Aloha, if you want I have a great site to get a fake pilot license.

and again with the not reading...I've already posted that I am attending a T3 law school ducky...
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: duckasourus on February 14, 2006, 04:03:51 PM
if you do then why defend someone makng a joke out of your degree.  People who go to law school without the needed inteligence (aka fake law schools) deserve to be ridiculed.  They mock our profession, but the bar keeps our profession valid.  Sorry aloha but you will NEVER pass, and texas I have faith u will fail too although I am sure S Africa will take you, and well I hope you go there.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: Texas on February 14, 2006, 04:31:34 PM
if you do then why defend someone makng a joke out of your degree.  People who go to law school without the needed inteligence (aka fake law schools) deserve to be ridiculed.  They mock our profession, but the bar keeps our profession valid.  Sorry aloha but you will NEVER pass, and texas I have faith u will fail too although I am sure S Africa will take you, and well I hope you go there.

I simply believe that after a person has weighed their alternatives, their choice should be respected rather than ridiculed. There are countless people who could ridicule you for the choice you made (of course if it was stanford, then that group of people might be limited to harvard and yale grads - or perhaps med students might mock you for becoming a lawyer...who knows).

The bar does keep our profession valid...AND THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT THAT YOU MAKE...and the fact that it does allow for non aba graduates to pass, even if only a rare few do, legitimizes the alternative methods of education that you ridicule.

As for me, I'm doin' fine ducky...   ;D
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: lipper on February 14, 2006, 06:14:54 PM
indeed, i love going to the bar.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: aloha737pilot on February 15, 2006, 02:05:50 AM
A poem by Duckasouras:

Ducky's Big Day.

It was a day in June, about half past noon,
When Ducky got his law degree.
The Dean said, "Boy, come on down here,
I got something I want you to see"
The Dean held out a fine new diploma,
With Ducky's name right in the middle.
"I can see you're really excited boy,
'Cause I think you're starting to piddle."
With his diploma in hand, and in control of his gland,
Ducky went down to see his folks.
"We are so proud of you son, you son of a gun,
you'll be the butt of no more jokes."
At the end of the day, when he went out to play,
The neighbor kids asked what he had done,
"Last year I couldn't spell lawyer, this year I really are one."
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: duckasourus on February 19, 2006, 09:29:13 AM
wow you wrote me a poem, I guess I have to do the same I am aloha I am a middle aged man, I am losing my hair and my dignity, I have worked in the military a long time so I have no money to buy me a corvette, but my pilot salary can buy me a fake law degree.  I live in Hawaii and my company is going bankrupt but I can go broke with a fake law degree in hand.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: sdlaw on February 19, 2006, 12:41:13 PM
texas I have to question your logic, the non Aba schools tend to make the legal field more of a joke then an honorable degree.  By your posts I see your at a T3 (not that impressive, yet WAY more impressive than a non-aba).  I do not get why you encourage people to continue their legal education online, non aba schools are not real law schools and to defend them makes no sense.  I agree you should make your own choice as to what education to get but a law degree is not a hobby and Aloha737 and you make it seem like it is.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: Texas on February 20, 2006, 03:10:54 PM
texas I have to question your logic, the non Aba schools tend to make the legal field more of a joke then an honorable degree.  By your posts I see your at a T3 (not that impressive, yet WAY more impressive than a non-aba).  I do not get why you encourage people to continue their legal education online, non aba schools are not real law schools and to defend them makes no sense.  I agree you should make your own choice as to what education to get but a law degree is not a hobby and Aloha737 and you make it seem like it is.

I don't think that I've ever said that DL is the way to go...but there are some circumstances where a person may choose that option to enrich themselves, either personally or professionally.

In my case, I have a masters degree that was completed via DL. Now, this was a research degree, so I probably had more contact (almost daily by email) with my supervisor than I would have had in a regular setting. But the point is, it is fully accredited, and because of that work I have now been able to publish 2 articles in peer-reviewed journals. This in turn may be opening the doors to some T14 schools that I am trying to transfer into.

Now with law, DL is probably the worst choice available to 99% of the people that want a law degree...but for that 1% it might be the ideal choice (for whatever their reasons). I just think that while it is good to point out the limitations of DL, once someone has weighed that, there is no reason to harass them because you don't like their decision.

I know that thousands of people will be graduating from ABA schools this year, ranked in the bottom 1/4 of their class, and with 100-150K in debt...to me they all made the wrong choice (except for maybe those in the T14 schools). They are going to have crappy jobs, and be saddled with a tremendous debt load for years to come. I truly think that the majority of them will be miserable...but it was their choice to make.

I chose instead to take the free ride at a T3 to make sure I would survive - and now that I'm in the top 5%, I am weighing transferring up. Others might think that I was foolish not to attend a T1 school first...and in retrospect, maybe they would be right, but at my age, I couldn't risk that much debt without a strong class ranking, and that just wasn't guaranteed.

We all have to make decisions based on where we are, and where we want to go. I can't even remember what Aloha's reasons were, but what is important is that he has them. There's no point in degrading that decision simply because non-traditional law schools aren't as good traditional ones....
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: aloha737pilot on February 21, 2006, 02:28:36 AM
the non Aba schools tend to make the legal field more of a joke then an honorable degree.  By your posts I see your(sic) at a T3 (not that impressive, yet WAY more impressive than a non-aba). 

If the "less than acceptable" law schools make a joke of the legal field, who is it that is laughing? Are you laughing? I am not laughing. Is the general public laughing, the ones who don't know their legal elbow from a hole in the ground? No one is laughing, it is just you and people like you who continue the elitist attitude as evidenced by your remark to Texas about his so called "not that impressive" T3 school attendance.

"Law schools channel their students into jobs in the hierarchy of the bar according to their own standing in the hierarchy of schools. Students confronted with the choice of what to do after they graduate experience themselves as largely helpless: they have no "real" alternative to taking a job in one of the firms that customarily hire from their school. Partly, faculties generate this sense of student helplessness by propagating myths about the character of the different kinds of practice. They extol the forms that are accessible to their students; they subtly denigrate or express envy about the jobs that will be beyond their student's reach; they dismiss as ethically and socially suspect the jobs their students won't have to take." Duncan Kennedy, Carter Professor of General Jurisprudence, Harvard University, from "The Politics of Law".

Having read many articles and books over the last few months I can see the legal field is no different than any other. It attracts many people who are suitable to the field and many who are not. It is a prestigious and honorable calling that is attractive to many people for many reasons. I think I am more attracted to the knowledge that legal study will provide me in the areas of my life that I will need this legal knowledge. If my desire to study law, online, causes a problem in someone elses legal career I could care less. If your T1 legal education and your "LA Law" big law job is affected by me studying law online, then give me a call at 1-800-382-5633.



 

Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: Wild Jack Maverick on February 22, 2006, 05:31:37 AM


It is a prestigious and honorable calling that is attractive to many people for many reasons.
 

I agree. I was wondering if anyone else felt the same way.
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: DanteHicks on February 22, 2006, 09:12:32 AM
Here's something from one of my previous posts (with some slight modifications to fit this thread)...

Here's some factors to consider.

1) The ABA is basically a monopoly or bears some semblance of a organized union.  The "either yer with us or against us" is the golden rule here.  This machine has been oiled for quite some time and is difficult to stop.  However, most things do not remain stagnant too long.  This too will break, perhaps not in our life time, but it will break.  Can you imagine the pissed off people if ABA accreditation went the way of the dodo?  Law profs seeking tenure who spew legal philosophy pedagogy from their high towers would be forced to practice law somewhere...and this scares them.  Long time honored notions of law ivy league schools would female dog and moan and certain politicians' ears would be ringing.

2) Some contend that a legal education from a distance learning and/or law night school is subpar from any ABA university law program.  This is a myth.  If one compares the curriculum between programs you would find that the same core courses are there as well as most of the electives.  The law taught in an ABA school is not different.  An opinion in an ABA school's casebook reads the same at the non-ABA school.  In fact the same casebooks/hornbooks are basically used at either school.  Con law doesn't change if you go to a non-ABA school, nor do Torts, etc.  The workload is not lessened.  In some instances it's worse than ABA schools.  In the brock n' mortar night schools...the socratic method is used extensively and there are constant writing assignements.

3) You will find the courses taught at non-ABA schools are taught by practicing (or retired) lawyers, law clerks, judges, etc.  Those who work in the profession and know how the law is applied in real life.  You may find those in ABA schools are professors whose knowledge of law is pure academic.  If you think it's just a cliche that those who can't practice law teach law...you may want to reconsider.  Of course some of this may be generalizing and I'm sure there are the exceptions...but this cannot be ignored either.  Most people know that law school does not actually prepare you to practice law in real life; merely a golden ticket to the bar exam.  What may be worth mentioning however is one in a non-ABA school may get a more practical education on law.  It is not uncommon for non-ABA grads to be able to open a solo practice right out of law school.

4) ABA and non-ABA grads will take the same bar exam in their respective states.  This is the equalizer.  For those who wish to practice law after law school (yes some do not wish to practice law..they just wanted the JD), law school is your golden ticket there (save for maybe Wisconsin).  The bar exam will not care if you are an ABA grad or not.  The ABA and non-ABA grad will be able to practice in that state.

5) Yes there are disadvantages to non-ABA.  One is the stigma.  Another is the inability to immediately practice in a different state.  You will have a snowball's chance in hell getting hired into a "big" firm.  Is this disasterous?  No.  You will typically find that that the non-ABA folks are older than a typical law student...working during the day or raising a family, while attending school at night.  Law school at night might be someone's only way to make this dream come true.  You will also find that most of these individuals are probably not interested in working for a huge law firm, nor wanting to relocate to another state.  They may not seek working 80 hours a week to make their bosses rich and knowing that even if they bust their ass they will never "make partner".

In summary, non-ABA may not be the best choice for everyone.  This is obvious.  However, this should not infer that a non-ABA education is inferior.  Some schools choose not to play the ABA game and  some schools can't get ABA status because their law library is missing a few reporters.  It's all political BS. 

Anyway, that's my three cents (you get an extra cent).

DH
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: VirtualJD on February 22, 2006, 10:16:19 AM
In response to Texas' post, I'll say it.  Non-ABA, distance option is the only way for me to go.  I did think of law school immediately after I finished my under-grad degree, but other factors in my life made that impossible.  And now, the cost of quitting work to attend a brick & mortar, traditional law school is cost prohibitive and there's no local night section offered in my area.  It's the total cost that's the killer, of which tuition and books is just a minor component.

Where I am in life, I have no interest in competing with some 20-somethings or early 30-somethings to work at a firm as a junior associate for 80 hours per week to compete for a partner position years down the road.  What I want to do is to extend my effectiveness in my current career and broaden and enhance my overall skills. 
Title: Re: My Savior Duckasouras
Post by: Mesquite on February 27, 2006, 03:33:10 AM
For me, too, DL is the only way to go.  I am 54, retired (early) and have an interest in the law.  I do think if I get the virtual JD, pass the CA bar and the US patent office exam, I could do some patent law to supplement my income as my background is in engineering.  However, I am really doing DL JD because I am interested in the law.  I have always been fascinated and in awe of the US legal system.