Law School Discussion

Law Students => Job Search => Topic started by: Wild Jack Maverick on July 18, 2005, 07:11:16 PM

Title: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: Wild Jack Maverick on July 18, 2005, 07:11:16 PM
Work Schedule: Full Time
Salary: $57,715 to $135,136*
Location: Washington, DC metropolitan area

The CIA Office of General Counsel is recruiting highly qualified new and experienced Attorneys at the GS-11 to GS-15* range to join its exciting and challenging legal practice. Our practice provides the opportunity to interact with a wide variety of US Government agencies, Congress, Federal and state courts, and the private sector. OGC lawyers have regular contact with other Intelligence Community agencies, the White House, the National Security Council and the Departments of Defense, State, Justice, Treasury and Commerce.

OGC handles a wide variety of legal issues, including, among other things, both civil and criminal litigation, foreign intelligence and counterintelligence activities, counterterrorism, counternarcotics, nonproliferation and arms control, personnel and security matters, contracting, finance and budget matters, tax, immigration, international financial transactions, corporate law, copyright, intellectual property, foreign and international law, and legislation.

The CIA's personnel screening process generally takes from six to nine months to complete. Graduation from an ABA-accredited law school and active bar membership from any of the 50 states, District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, or the US Virgin Islands are required.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The CIA is an equal opportunity employer, and all interested applicants are encouraged to apply. Please send a resume, law school transcript, legal writing sample, and the names and telephone numbers of three legal references to:

Administrative Officer
Office of General Counsel
Central Intelligence Agency
Washington, DC 20505

All applicants must successfully complete a thorough medical and psychological exam, a polygraph interview and an extensive background investigation. US citizenship is required. For more information about the CIA Office of General Counsel, please see our website.

ALL POSITIONS REQUIRE RELOCATION TO THE WASHINGTON DC METROPOLITAN AREA.

An equal opportunity employer and a drug-free work force.

Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: ($) on August 24, 2005, 11:40:12 AM
tag
Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: katrina on September 02, 2005, 01:34:36 PM
The salary they get you started at is ridiculous!
Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: spouse on September 16, 2005, 06:03:00 AM
Different view here

http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/students/index.php/topic,2325.0.html
Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: terapist on January 16, 2006, 04:35:59 AM
The salary they get you started at is ridiculous!

You think everyone will be able to go to biglaw to earn big bucks?! Well, my dear, you're so mistaken!
Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: martina on February 10, 2006, 06:35:41 PM
Now this is funny! For a lousy salary of 35-50K and 40 - 60 hrs a week! HA!

Quote
While great grades and Law Review don't hurt you, they aren't mandatory. The CIA likes to see great paper credentials, but they stress that they hire the "whole person."

http://www.cia.gov/ogc/best.htm
Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: erstes on February 18, 2006, 11:06:04 AM
Don't you think you have misunderstood what you've quoted, martina?!
Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: Erapitt on February 18, 2006, 12:10:41 PM
No matter how you look at it, it is a low salary.  I work for the government now and am on a career ladder.  Right now I am a GS-9, as of August I will be a GS-11, and as of the following August a 12.  By the time I finish my 4 yr. part time program I will be a 13 with some steps.  If I stay with the government I will likely keep my salary rather than go back down to their starting salary. 

Nonetheless, keep one thing in mind.... Working for the feds isn't about the money.
Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: mendeleiev on February 20, 2006, 02:23:21 PM
Don't you think you have misunderstood what you've quoted, martina?!

I for one don't think so, erstes! I mean, when they say "While great grades and Law Review don't hurt you, they aren't mandatory" what do you think they really mean, that most likely than not you do not need to have them in your transcript?! And don't get me started about that "whole" person thing!
Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: bstbnd on March 01, 2006, 07:56:01 PM
Some of you guys here have quite an attitude!

As for attorneys on government schedule

GS-11: $43,680-$56,784
GS-12: $52,350-$68,053
GS-13: $62,253-$80,926
GS-14: $73,564-$95,629
GS-15: $86,532-$112,490

Locality payment of 11.49% included.
Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: bstbnd on March 01, 2006, 08:00:48 PM
Public Interest jobs suck as well!


Atlanta
Southeastern Legal Foundation
Starting salary: $40,000
Top salary: $78,000

Charlottesville, Va.
Southern Environmental Law Center
Starting salary: $38,000
Top salary: $89,000

New York
American Civil Liberties Union
Starting salary: $33,000
Top salary: $77,250

Center for Constitutional Rights
Starting salary: $35,000
Top salary: $60,000
 
Lambda Legal Defense and Education Fund
Starting salary: $47,000
Top salary: $80,000

Washington, D.C.
Center for Individual Rights
Starting salary: $40,000
Top salary: $120,000

Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights
Starting salary: $39,450
Top salary: $85,418

Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: cnlw on March 02, 2006, 05:18:31 AM
Well, serving as a lawyer in the federal government may not provide as large a salary as a major metropolitan law firm, but it offers a salary that is competitive with many public service opportunities.

College graduates with a 4-year degree typically enter the system at GS-5 or GS-7. Master's level graduates usually enter at a GS-9 or higher, depending upon number of years of work experience. Special rules allow agencies to pay attorneys more, so law school graduates usually start at GS-11 or GS-12, depending on whether the applicant is entering an honors program or has experience from a clerkship. This means a starting salary somewhere between $47,000 and $62,000.

For certain hard-to-fill positions, departments and agencies may be able to offer a "special pay rate" that allows them to increase salaries for potential recruits. Examples of such departments include SEC, Department of Justice, IRS, GAO, DoC, DoD, Army and Air Force JAG, HUD, and HHS.
Title: Department of Justice
Post by: cnlw on March 02, 2006, 05:30:32 AM
The Attorney General's Honors Program is the Department's recruitment program for entry-level attorneys and is the only way the Department hires graduating law students. The Honors Program is highly competitive, the Department reviews many elements of a candidate's background before selecting him for employment, including: academic achievement, law review experience, moot court competition, legal aid and clinical experience, and summer or part-time employment. The Department also considers specialized academic studies (including undergraduate and post-graduate degrees), work experience, and extracurricular activities that directly relate to the work of the Department.

An experienced attorney who is an active member of the bar (any jurisdiction) and has at least one year post-J.D. experience can apply for a position as an experienced attorney. You can work for the Department of Justice in a broad range of opportunities. Approximately 50% of the more than 600 experienced attorneys hired by Department each year join one of the 94 U.S. Attorneys' Offices. The remainder of the positions are likely to be in the larger Department organizations that account for significant portions of attorney hiring. Those organizations are:

• Antitrust Division
• Civil Division
• Civil Rights Division
• Criminal Division
• Environment and Natural Resources Division
• Tax Division
• Federal Bureau of Prisons
• Executive Office for Immigration Review
• United States Trustees' Offices

Many of the smaller offices also hire experienced attorneys, but generally on a less frequent basis and/or in far fewer numbers than the larger organizations mentioned above. Attorneys at the Department are paid under one of two salary structures - the General Schedule (GS) or the Administratively Determined (AD) pay scale - depending on the organization for which they work. Assistant U.S. Attorneys (AUSAs) are paid under the AD pay scale. The vast majority of other attorneys at the Department are paid under the General Schedule. Experienced attorneys under the General Schedule are hired in the GS-11 to GS-15 range, depending on the nature of the position to be filled, an attorney's years of experience, and the hiring component's policies.

Attorneys may be considered for promotion from their current GS level (e.g., GS-13) to the next highest GS level (e.g., GS-14) once they have served the requisite minimum time-in-grade. The following chart summarizes the promotion eligibility schedule for experienced attorneys under the General Schedule:

Grade Level       Minimum Waiting Time for Consideration
GS-11 to GS-12    6 months
GS-12 to GS-13    6 months (if hired at the GS-12 level: otherwise 1 year)
GS-13 to GS-14    1 year
GS-14 to GS-15    1 year (with outstanding performance appraisal); otherwise, 18 months

It is thus possible for attorneys starting at the GS-12 grade level, for example, to reach the GS-15 level in only 2 1/2 years. However, that some organizations may require longer waiting periods or restrict the grade level to which non-supervisory attorneys may be promoted. Assistant United States Attorneys receive an annual pay review that may lead to an increase in basic pay, based on the attorney's performance rating, current pay and pay range, and years of experience as an attorney.

Only U.S. citizens are eligible for employment with the Executive Office for Immigration, Review (EOIR), FBI, U.S. Attorneys Offices', and the U.S. Trustee Program. Non-U.S. citizens may apply for employment with other Department components (unless otherwise indicated in a vacancy announcement), but should be advised that appointments of non-U.S. citizens are extremely rare. Such appointments are considered only if necessary to accomplish the Department's mission, and are subject to strict security requirements. Dual citizens of the U.S. and another country will be considered on a case-by-case basis.
Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: Erapitt on March 02, 2006, 05:33:55 AM
I am currently a GS-9.  I entered my agency as a 7 upon college graduation.  This year, I will promote to a GS-11 and in 2007 I will get promoted to GS-12.  At that point it becomes competitive in that only so many GS-13's and above exist.  However, at my particular agency GS-13 is pretty much guaranteed for me in 2008.

That means, when I graduate law school I will be a GS-13 with some steps under my belt.  The government cannot lower your salary once you have held a particular grade, so if I go and practice as an attorney for my agency or any other I will maintain my roughly 75-85K salary that I would be earning otherwise.  With my agency in particular, should I choose to remain with them as a lawyer I will likely be promoted to GS-14.

That being said, not all government work is low paying.  I will happily take 85-100K per year to work less hours in a less stressful environment where I have more responsibility than I ever would in the private sector.  Simply stated, if you do your time in the government you WILL reap the benefits.
Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: Jammie on March 02, 2006, 07:03:05 PM
Very informative thread!
Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: majorporcupine on March 03, 2006, 01:23:42 AM
Plus you get to wear a tuxedo to court!  8)
Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: tuck on March 10, 2006, 06:31:46 AM
I understand this has not to do what the thread's topic, but I wanted to say that it;s pretty much the same deal with other federal government branches. SEC, for instance, through its Advanced Committment Program provides opportunities for current 3d year students, LLMs, and judicial law clerks to secure entry-level attorney positions after they graduate. Applicants must have a B average in law school to apply, previous relevant employment, writing/research abilities as demonstrated by law review/other publication, extracurricular activities (moot court/legal aid/clinical experience).

Non-US citizens interested in the program must be citizens of an allied country. Opportunities for entry-level positions in Regional and District Offices are primarily in New York and Chicago regional offices. Attorneys in the regional offices concentrate in enforcement matters, conduct investigations and litigate cases they file or institute.
Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: on March 14, 2006, 04:51:17 AM
Very good information. Again.
Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: craty on March 14, 2006, 02:19:46 PM

[...]

Applicants must have a B average in law school to apply, previous relevant employment, writing/research abilities as demonstrated by law review/other publication, [...]


You can't have a B average and be in law review .. and what this other publication can be?

Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: Erapitt on March 14, 2006, 02:21:50 PM
Sure you can have a B average and be on a journal.  Some journals are weighted, i.e. 70% grades and 30% writing and others you can just write during the journal competition. 

However, I assure you, with crap grades, you won't get a job with the CIA or any government agency.  In my federal position they interviewed over 500 people, gave 28 second interviews, and hired 7 of us.
Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: Haydée on March 15, 2006, 12:42:27 AM
B *is* a crap grade!
Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: gjj on March 17, 2006, 07:27:50 PM
LOL Haydée, I know what ya mean! ;)
Title: Hubby failed CIA poly
Post by: Deborah on March 20, 2006, 07:40:49 PM
He refused to do any reserach on how the poly works, etc. and went in and got blindsided. I'm registering and posting here because he's so scared of getting "caught." He came home in tears yesterday -- not because he failed but because of the mental and emotional trauma he endured.
 
He is completely clean on all counts, but honest to a fault -- with a very sensitive disposition. They told him there were "problems" with many of his questions, and during the interrogation phase, he made a bunch of "admissions" of trivial stuff --nothing that should get him disqualified, but maybe stupid stuff -- like "stealing" paper coasters at a bar, or something like that. (He won't even tell me for fear of getting caught.) He is, however, TOTALLY clean on all counts of anything serious.
 
He has to go back. What the heck should he do now? He's terrified, and he apparently made his "admissions" already. They were brutal and inhumane. Can he "opt out" of the interrogation phase next time, and still pass?
Title: Re: Hubby failed CIA poly
Post by: SadderbutWiser on March 20, 2006, 07:47:54 PM
He refused to do any reserach on how the poly works, etc. and went in and got blindsided. I'm registering and posting here because he's so scared of getting "caught." He came home in tears yesterday -- not because he failed but because of the mental and emotional trauma he endured.
 
He is completely clean on all counts, but honest to a fault -- with a very sensitive disposition. They told him there were "problems" with many of his questions, and during the interrogation phase, he made a bunch of "admissions" of trivial stuff --nothing that should get him disqualified, but maybe stupid stuff -- like "stealing" paper coasters at a bar, or something like that. (He won't even tell me for fear of getting caught.) He is, however, TOTALLY clean on all counts of anything serious.
 
He has to go back. What the heck should he do now? He's terrified, and he apparently made his "admissions" already. They were brutal and inhumane. Can he "opt out" of the interrogation phase next time, and still pass?

Don't worry. My husband, who is the most prudish, innocent kind of man had been accused of all manner of sexual perversion, or some such nonsense, and came home in tears. I believe they did something to brainwash him, as I remember that day he kept muttering things about being "a bad man" and "a bad person." And my hubby is the sort of fellow who's absolutely embarrassed to the point of mortification if some sleazy ad pops up on the internet -- definitely not a "bad man." They're pervs there, and I was happy my hubby didn't get the job back then.   

Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: arna on March 20, 2006, 07:55:11 PM
If you can't figure out how to beat the polygraph, how can you ever be a CIA agent?!
Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: Erapitt on March 20, 2006, 07:59:04 PM
What's with the three trolls in a row?  Actually, let me rephrase, what is with the one troll that made three screen names to post bogus bull?  Moron.
Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: the plagueraizer on March 21, 2006, 02:28:27 PM
Truth hurts, eraped, doesn't it?!  ;D
Title: Re: Hubby failed CIA poly
Post by: flashback on March 21, 2006, 02:32:44 PM


Don't worry. My husband, who is the most prudish, innocent kind of man had been accused of all manner of sexual perversion, or some such nonsense, and came home in tears. I believe they did something to brainwash him, as I remember that day he kept muttering things about being "a bad man" and "a bad person." And my hubby is the sort of fellow who's absolutely embarrassed to the point of mortification if some sleazy ad pops up on the internet -- definitely not a "bad man." They're pervs there, and I was happy my hubby didn't get the job back then.   



A group of students here: We've been laughing with this since yesterday when we read it! I mean, we feel sorry for the poor guy having gone thru the ordeal, but on the other hand it's so entertaining to see someone take seriously the CIA bull ... I mean, come on, everyone knows what sick dogs CIA people are!
Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: szczczczc on March 21, 2006, 02:36:12 PM

[configuring the e-mail settings to make the report]
Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: Erapitt on March 21, 2006, 06:19:57 PM
You are retarded if you believe this story.  As someone that works in government and has gone through the clearance process, that is the biggest crock of liberal propagandist bull I have ever heard.
Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: lipper on March 21, 2006, 10:19:51 PM
why does it have to be liberal? i would think if it has to be anything, it's conservative. the conservatives are the ones who thrive on the "scare" factor.

I should have guess you were a close-minded conservative. See the pre-law post on baby whining and how it relates to republicans.
Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: BoredAtWork2112 on March 21, 2006, 11:39:38 PM
You are retarded if you believe this story.  As someone that works in government and has gone through the clearance process, that is the biggest crock of liberal propagandist bull I have ever heard.

Since you don't work for the CIA, you wouldn't really know about their specific security process, would you?
Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: Erapitt on March 22, 2006, 07:01:33 AM
Actually, I consider myself a moderate.

Not working for an agency doesn't mean never going through their clearance process are two totally different things.  Not to mention that anybody that had gone through it would know that it is a classified process and disclosing the information obtained is illegal.
Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: plaintext on March 22, 2006, 08:22:10 AM
Actually, I consider myself a moderate.

Not working for an agency doesn't mean never going through their clearance process are two totally different things.  Not to mention that anybody that had gone through it would know that it is a classified process and disclosing the information obtained is illegal.

unfortunately, if you're working for a different agency, it means exactly that... any more stories to tell?  :D

Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: Erapitt on March 22, 2006, 08:24:18 AM
Actually, you are incorrect.  Agencies offer "conditional offers of employment."  Once you receive one you go through the clearance process.  Keep pretending like you know what the hell you are talking about moron.
Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: BoredAtWork2112 on March 22, 2006, 11:31:11 AM
So you failed the clearence process? 

Well, that means you probably didn't see the whole process.
Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: Erapitt on March 22, 2006, 11:37:30 AM
Polygraphs are shaky areas.  They involve alot of "grey area."  Without going into much detail, they don't look for lying or not lying, they look for deviations and highly rely on physiological factors.  I have taken more than one and both passed and didn't pass.  Its stupid to call it fail, because its not really failing.  Sometimes they just can't get a good read on you for certain questions.  If that is the case, then they can't hire you. The CIA uses a lifestyle polygraph that is much more in depth than many other ones.  However, it doesn't mean *&^% in the grand scheme of things.  Its not like the results can haunt you from other employment, unless of course you didn't disclose being a drug dealer or a terrorist.
Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: Erapitt on March 22, 2006, 11:39:57 AM
So you failed the clearence process? 

Well, that means you probably didn't see the whole process.

The bottom line is the process is one of non-disclosure.  Like many government agencies, and aspects of the interview process, you sign a document stating you will not disclose what went on during your screening. It is against the law to violate that.  The stories mentioned are bull.  Believe what you want.  I don't see any of you finding out one way or another anyway considering most people going to law school aren't going to be gunning for an SCI clearance.
Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: BoredAtWork2112 on March 22, 2006, 11:43:26 AM
Well, clearly the story being told dealt with the lifestyles section of the poly.  Even with non-disclosure docs, stories spread.  Are they often exaggerated? Sure.  But you cannot outright dismiss them as bull as you have here.

I would also point out that, as I'm sure you know, the content of the polygraph will differ from test to test.  Surely some test-givers go into more depth in the lifestyle section that others, depending on the answers given.
Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: plaintext on March 22, 2006, 02:04:54 PM
Polygraphs are shaky areas.  They involve alot of "grey area."  Without going into much detail, they don't look for lying or not lying, they look for deviations and highly rely on physiological factors.  I have taken more than one and both passed and didn't pass.  Its stupid to call it fail, because its not really failing.  Sometimes they just can't get a good read on you for certain questions.  If that is the case, then they can't hire you. The CIA uses a lifestyle polygraph that is much more in depth than many other ones.  However, it doesn't mean *&^% in the grand scheme of things.  Its not like the results can haunt you from other employment, unless of course you didn't disclose being a drug dealer or a terrorist.

correct, they don't use the poly to determine truthfulness.. they're looking for deviations for the sake of looking for deviations.  "Hey Joe, look there's a deviation!  there's another deviation!  Holy cow, a positive deviation!  Wow, Billy, look at the EMG response!  he's sweating like a pig, look at the  BP response!"  the CIA doesn't want people with physiological devations..

Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: Erapitt on March 22, 2006, 05:58:16 PM
Parker: point noted with regards to variation as well as stories spreading to a POINT.  However, I assure you, they definately have a way of limiting your thoughts of disclosure. 

Plaintext: You still remain a moron.
Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: plaintext on March 22, 2006, 07:21:03 PM

so why are you disclosing so much?   ;)
Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: arcanismajor on March 27, 2006, 06:58:10 PM
If you can't figure out how to beat the polygraph, how can you ever be a CIA agent?!

;)
Title: Re: Hubby failed CIA poly
Post by: marina del ray on May 04, 2006, 04:02:43 PM

[...] but on the other hand it's so entertaining to see someone take seriously the CIA bull ... I mean, come on, everyone knows what sick dogs CIA people are!


ONE hot summer's day a Fox was strolling through an orchard till he came to a bunch of Grapes just ripening on a vine which had been trained over a lofty branch. "Just the things to quench my thirst," quoth he. Drawing back a few paces, he took a run and a jump, and just missed the bunch. Turning round again with a One, Two, Three, he jumped up, but with no greater success. Again and again he tried after the tempting morsel, but at last had to give it up, and walked away with his nose in the air, saying: "I am sure they are sour."
Title: Re: Career--CIA attorneys
Post by: jar on May 04, 2006, 04:10:01 PM

ONE hot summer's day a Fox was strolling through an orchard till he came to a bunch of Grapes just ripening on a vine which had been trained over a lofty branch. "Just the things to quench my thirst," quoth he. Drawing back a few paces, he took a run and a jump, and just missed the bunch. Turning round again with a One, Two, Three, he jumped up, but with no greater success. Again and again he tried after the tempting morsel, but at last had to give it up, and walked away with his nose in the air, saying: "I am sure they are sour."

Yea right, 35-50K year


Now this is funny! For a lousy salary of 35-50K and 40 - 60 hrs a week! HA!

http://www.cia.gov/ogc/best.htm

Title: Re: Hubby failed CIA poly
Post by: homosexual congress on July 21, 2006, 03:17:51 PM

A group of students here: We've been laughing with this since yesterday when we read it! I mean, we feel sorry for the poor guy having gone thru the ordeal, but on the other hand it's so entertaining to see someone take seriously the CIA bull ... I mean, come on, everyone knows what sick dogs CIA people are!


;)