Law School Discussion

Law Students => Current Law Students => Topic started by: disgruntled1L on September 18, 2004, 09:14:03 PM

Title: law school depression
Post by: disgruntled1L on September 18, 2004, 09:14:03 PM
So i wondering if this is just me...but i hate the people in law school!!!  @#!* classes, any idiot (who is smart enough to get into LS in the first place) can pass their classes...they are the least of my concerns.  I'm freaking out because i hate the people i'm surrounded by!  I never really thought about who it is that goes to law school but now that i'm here i realize its all Frat-dicks/business majors who have think they are gods gift and a bunch of perky Sorority-type girls. ( I am basing this on not just my school but on people from a number of law schools here in my city & on friends descriptions who are in law schools around the country!!)

I personally dont fit in anywhere...i hate Jessica Simpson and the real world, i hate dressing in Abercrombie and Gap, and i outgrew beer-bongs in undergrad.  I like independant films, non-top 100 music and being my own person...all of which seem to have no place is law school.  

I'm wondering if anyone else is having this problem...if you find my post insulting, sorry, but it's not directed at any of you posters personally...It just seems like nobody else is experiencing this at my school and i'm curious about people out there!
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: zebbie88 on September 19, 2004, 06:08:26 AM
I feel your pain, but I think it will get better.  Personally, on the first day I looked around and thought "Oh God, how can I last three years with these people?"  I'm older than most (29), have traveled extensively internationally to places lots of people haven't heard of, don't have a very squeaky clean past life, and have been working for years in an incredibly demanding job.  Not that I'm more interesting than anyone else, but do I have lot of life experience that departs from the mainstream.  Everyone seemed like incredibly young frat boys or sorority girls with the most banal things to say. There still is a large element of that, but several weeks down the track I see all this diversity that I didn't at first.  I am sure there are older students in your class, for example, who have been working for years and are probably going to law school while dealing with major family responsibilities.  Try getting to know a few of them.  It's a humbling experience to hear how much effort other people have put in to get here.  Is there anyone in your class who is from another country?  Generally foreign born students don't fit the frat idiot/perky sorority mold so well either...Some people who initially seem like obnoxious idiots can turn out to be really ok when you get to know them, so don't write everone off forever.  I know it's depressing right now, but make an active effort to seek out people and hear what they have to say; they might surprise you.  The idiot frat boy/perky sorority type is definitely a factor in all law schools (and law firms too) but some of them change and some of them aren't as bad when you get to know them.  I guarantee that there are others in your class who feel just like you.  Go out there and find 'em!
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: nuhusky on September 19, 2004, 06:09:39 AM
you are right in that alot of the students in law school are frat boys and perky sorority girls. It still baffles me how they go out every night and get wasted. I feel in some regards that I am back in high school. The so called cool crowd has already formed, and they seem to love to party. The only saving grace is that there are people at my school beyond that crap, who actaully enjoy holding an intellectal conversation once in awhile.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: disgruntled1L on September 19, 2004, 09:30:31 AM
I didnt mean that i think i'm better then anyone else...(i realize my post could be read that way)!  I just am in such a different place then a majority of the people in my class.  I'm only 23 and single, so i dont have much in common with the older returning students who have families but at the same time i dont want to go out to clubs every night, get trashed and have one-night stands with the people who are my age.

I am personally opposed to conforming to fit in...i would rather be totally alone for 3 years then transform into the cookie-cutter sorority girls that are in my class...it just disapoints me that law school filled with so many of the same type of people...
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: jeffjoe on September 19, 2004, 09:59:28 AM
Maybe it's the particular school that you are attending.
The atmosphere is different in different schools.

I dunno.  Just a suggestion.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: meemergirl on September 19, 2004, 03:37:13 PM
I feel exactly like the original poster!  I just really started to pinpoint my unhappiness this week.  Not the classes...I am enjoying my professors and the material (most of it, anyway).  What I don't enjoy is manageable.  I am NOT enjoying the competitive pr*cks that are in my section.  I feel that it is more prevalent in my section...others seem to be more laid-back and friendly. Most in my section are looking for others to fail, or so it seems.

People in my section formed "cliques" within the first week, and are now really showing a not-so-pleasing competitive streak as well.  I chose my school b/c of its cooperative reputation, even though it doesn't have the best reputation out there.  I feel a bit misled.  

I have been out of school for 3 years working, and am a bit older (27) than some of my section-mates, so maybe that has something to do with it?  

Thanks for allowing me to vent...and letting me know I'm not the only one that feels the "fifth week depression".
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: jeffjoe on September 19, 2004, 03:38:59 PM
Not all schools are so competitive, so I'm told.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: meemergirl on September 19, 2004, 03:43:57 PM
Yep...and I was told by many grads that mine was one of them...TRICKED!  ???   ;)
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: disgruntled1L on September 19, 2004, 05:42:02 PM
I feel exactly like the original poster!  ...Thanks for allowing me to vent...and letting me know I'm not the only one that feels the "fifth week depression".

Yeah! I'm glad i'm not the only one!  I had a background in art before i decided on law school and I love my classes, i dont doubt that law is what i want to do BUT its really hard when you dont have things in common with your fellow classmates...I'm about 2 seconds from hunting down art grad students from other schools just so i can talk to someone who has a clue (in my opinion only!!) about whats important in life!
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: dgatl on September 19, 2004, 07:09:57 PM
I don't want to sound callous, but you will be spending the next three years of your life with these people.  You can't hate them already!  We all come from different backgrounds, and I have found that the past sorority/frat types really can add something interesting to the conversation.  At my school, I'm surrounded by trust fund babies, long islanders, abercrombie frat boys, and all other types of people.  While I haven't made friends with anyone (that's because I already had friends in town), and while I know that these kids are my competitors, I also know that I'll be seeing them for the next three years.

So pitch that hatred out the door, or better yet, direct it at your torts casebook.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: Ginatio on September 19, 2004, 07:12:15 PM
transfer somewhere else. I'm at penn and am not having this problem at all.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: meemergirl on September 20, 2004, 03:26:54 AM
I guess I am a bit sensitive.  It definitely is not all of my section-mates.  I do have some great, supportive, helpful ones.  I have a few, though, that really seem to get to me. 

In particular, one group of "boys"...they sit together in every class.  They are in my line of sight in Procedure, and they mock and laugh at everyone's answers/questions.  It's hard not to watch their reaction and wonder, "What do they do when I respond?"  I never watch. And, they sit just behind me in Torts, and whisper answers to our Prof's questions in "oh, that's SO obvious..." tones when others are asked to recite.  (Just irks me...if you're not going to be helpful or at least polite, then keep it to yourself. 

Just deciding to get over it...nothing I can do about it.  I just finished three years of teaching in the public school system, and teachers are a different bunch.  If they don't like you, they'll be passive - never outwardly critical (most of the time).  I'm not sure which is worse...passive or just plain rude :D
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: dgatl on September 20, 2004, 05:09:36 AM
I guess I am a bit sensitive.  It definitely is not all of my section-mates.  I do have some great, supportive, helpful ones.  I have a few, though, that really seem to get to me. 

In particular, one group of "boys"...they sit together in every class.  They are in my line of sight in Procedure, and they mock and laugh at everyone's answers/questions.  It's hard not to watch their reaction and wonder, "What do they do when I respond?"  I never watch. And, they sit just behind me in Torts, and whisper answers to our Prof's questions in "oh, that's SO obvious..." tones when others are asked to recite.  (Just irks me...if you're not going to be helpful or at least polite, then keep it to yourself. 

Just deciding to get over it...nothing I can do about it.  I just finished three years of teaching in the public school system, and teachers are a different bunch.  If they don't like you, they'll be passive - never outwardly critical (most of the time).  I'm not sure which is worse...passive or just plain rude :D

Those "boys" will get a rude awakening when 1st semester grades come out.  And you can turn around and tell them to shut up, because you're paying too much money to hear them talk and you'd rather hear the prof (or at least, play snood in a quiet environment).
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: prettylily on September 20, 2004, 10:35:03 AM
Yeah, we have a lot of sorority chick cliques and frat boy cliques here too.  A lot of ppl are stressing out and keeping to themselves. Truthfully, I've been hanging out with some 2Ls more so than in my class.  They're a lot of fun.  It was so funny when the first two weeks everyone talked to each other and then in the last two weeks ppl have stopped talking when they're in their cliques...But they will speak to you when they're alone.

I just play the game.  Speak to when spoken to is the rule.  Don't rule anyone out, but you have a right to feel the way you do.  Try to make a life outside of school.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: Ginatio on September 20, 2004, 01:45:18 PM
lmao. are you kidding me? that sounds like community college/high school antics...

I guess I am a bit sensitive.  It definitely is not all of my section-mates.  I do have some great, supportive, helpful ones.  I have a few, though, that really seem to get to me. 

In particular, one group of "boys"...they sit together in every class.  They are in my line of sight in Procedure, and they mock and laugh at everyone's answers/questions.  It's hard not to watch their reaction and wonder, "What do they do when I respond?"  I never watch. And, they sit just behind me in Torts, and whisper answers to our Prof's questions in "oh, that's SO obvious..." tones when others are asked to recite.  (Just irks me...if you're not going to be helpful or at least polite, then keep it to yourself. 

Just deciding to get over it...nothing I can do about it.  I just finished three years of teaching in the public school system, and teachers are a different bunch.  If they don't like you, they'll be passive - never outwardly critical (most of the time).  I'm not sure which is worse...passive or just plain rude :D
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: i33tlizz on September 20, 2004, 02:14:10 PM
oh man, i totally know what you mean.  there is this one girl, i want to ring her neck, she has something to say about everything and 90% of the time, it's wrong!  Even the Profs call her on it...but she still does it...and talks to the profs after class...and everyone loves her (except me and a select few)...she's like perfect sorority girl who managed to pull a decent lsat and get into law school...kill me nowwwww
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: jeffjoe on September 20, 2004, 02:17:24 PM
I saw that movie!   :D

oh man, i totally know what you mean.  there is this one girl, i want to ring her neck, she has something to say about everything and 90% of the time, it's wrong!  Even the Profs call her on it...but she still does it...and talks to the profs after class...and everyone loves her (except me and a select few)...she's like perfect sorority girl who managed to pull a decent lsat and get into law school...kill me nowwwww
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: IHEARTLS on September 20, 2004, 03:24:50 PM
I feel the same way.  The people at my school are terrible.  They roll their eyes at me, brush by me in the hall w/o saying excuse me and only talk to me when they are running for a position.  There is also a "cool clique" here and some of the lame, needy, young women feel the need to belong.  I actually hear them complaining about how "the crew" doesn't talk to them or how so and so from the crew talked to them the other day and how they hope they can start getting to know them better.  It's pathetic.

I've decided to document it all...check out my blog!  www.1lsista.blogspot.com

Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: vw515 on September 20, 2004, 07:22:58 PM
smokers are always friendly even if you dont smoke go hang out by there hangout. We stick together at my school.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: ruskiegirl on September 20, 2004, 09:57:09 PM
Geez, where are these schools you guys are attending?!  My school is nothing like that.  In fact, I don't think a stereotypical sorority girl could survive one week here!  The people are great and always willing to help each other out in any way possible -- thanks to a very relaxed grading system.  Not one person I have met has had severe egomania.  The environment is not all that competitive because the attrition rate is 0 -- yes, you read that correctly! The two people that left last years class did so for personal rather than academic reasons. I can't imagine having to deal with what you guys seem to be going through.  All I can say is, if you think you still want to do law, stick it out and try to transfer.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: MSU on September 21, 2004, 03:12:44 PM
First Off - I attend MSU (Michigan State U) - I too feel my day consists of going to class and then going home.  I highly doubt it matters what school you go to or your age - everyone, everywhere, can feel alienated.  I've found that clubs offer a good way to meet different people you might not normally see or hang-out with.  If the law school clubs don't have what you need, then definitely join an undergrad or post-grad club.  

As far as your immature classmates, slutty dressed, preppy, beer guzzling, nerdy, stress-out, slackers, etc - I personally like the diversity.  You can either fight them and find yourself getting mad OR just look around and be happy that you made it and so did they.  Be happy that you find them annoying!!  God knows we don't want a bunch of "us" running around either.

Peace
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: dgatl on September 21, 2004, 03:18:08 PM
i advocate that you all start smoking immediately.  the smokers spot is the chill spot.  all types congegrate there to get their nicotine fix, and everyone is uber-nice
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: slacker on September 21, 2004, 05:43:31 PM
I'm older than most of my classmates. (Possibly all of them...hard to tell.) I don't have a lot in common with most of my classmates.

That said, I don't really let their cliquishness bother me. Even if they are cliquey, most all are friendly. I figure they've all gotten in school for one reason or another, and try to understand what each brings to the group.

Yeah, kinda pollyanna-ish...but it's a lot better than making myself miserable daily since I'm not "one of them." I'm not. I won't be. I'm ok with that.

As for the person with the annoying "boys" in class...one of our profs did a speech the first day about how law school can devolve into jr. high. One group he said to stay away from were those "too cool for school." Sounds like that bunch. They'll probably either wake up or flunk out. Either way, it's not worth your effort to worry about them. If they're nearby and annoying, ask the prof. to let you move your seat. Otherwise, worry about yourself and why you're there; you can't control others, and its not worth it to make yourself crazy thinking about it.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: schoolgrrl on September 26, 2004, 03:50:11 PM
ruskie girl- just curious, what is your school's grading system?

disgrunted - i understand where you are coming from . . .i have amazing teachers and met a few great people....but sometimes the High school atmosphere does get to me.
whenever i feel like pounding my head against the desk, i stop, close whatever case book i am reading, and do something that i love...even just for a hour or a few minutes.

but please feel free to vent as often as you like !!!
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: Duner on September 27, 2004, 10:57:28 AM
I think it's great seeing such a disprportionate greek population at law school. I thought maybe it was just my school, but it sounds like fraternity/sorority alums make up large populations at many schools. It was kind of funny going to a school in the northeast, where greek life was shunned, and stereotypified as a partier's lifestyle, and now here I am at law school and that whole group individuals that wasn't supposed to succeed outnumber the dorm rats.

To be honest, I'm kind of surprised that one's social affiliation when they were an undergrad still provokes hostility at graduate institutions consisting of very bright people and that don't even have any of those particular social groups anymore....i guess whoever made the quote about law school being like highschool was disturbingly correct.       
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: jeffjoe on September 27, 2004, 11:55:17 AM
I haven't any childish classmate problems, but someone on LSD who claims to be attend my school has been acting much like a child.  Supposedly ratting me out to the faculty for my "shameful" postings.  Sort of a cyber-brat.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: ruskiegirl on September 27, 2004, 01:55:02 PM
ruskie girl- just curious, what is your school's grading system?

disgrunted - i understand where you are coming from . . .i have amazing teachers and met a few great people....but sometimes the High school atmosphere does get to me.
whenever i feel like pounding my head against the desk, i stop, close whatever case book i am reading, and do something that i love...even just for a hour or a few minutes.

but please feel free to vent as often as you like !!!
Sixty per cent of the class gets a Pass.  Another 20 get Honors.  The top 10 per cent get High Honors.  Unless you're a total overachiever, it rarely matters.  We aren't allowed to put our GPA on our resumes, but despite all that and the strange grading system, our grads have no trouble finding jobs. 
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: lexylit on September 28, 2004, 04:46:57 PM
my first time on the students/grads board! but i'm lmao at the hostility toward sorority girls. thanks for the insight into first-year antics  ;)
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: burghblast on September 29, 2004, 02:16:49 PM
I can think of a lot worse fates than being surround by perky sorority girls dressed in skimpy Abercrombie clothing.  I've worked as a computer engineer for the past 5 years and the only women I see all day are our 40 year old accountant and office manager.  Your post kind of made my day... Now I have something to look forward to in law school next fall :)
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: burghblast on September 29, 2004, 02:28:03 PM
One more thing...

Another thing I've learned in the "real world" since graduating from college is that getting along with others, fitting in, and earning respect are some of the most important things that college *should* train you for.  They are invaluable real life skills.  I am *not* preaching conformity here, but no matter how smart you are, you can't succeed in life completely autonomous from the rest of the society you are trying to succeed in.  I think this is the reason many "Greeks" have a huge advantage coming out of college.  There are very few situations in life where exactly what you know is more important that your ability to interact with others:  To communicate those ideas, listen to and evaluate someone's response, and learn completely new ideas from those around you. 
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: dgatl on September 29, 2004, 04:40:27 PM
Burgh.  Thank you for your real world experiences.   ::)

I could care less about the Greeks at law school.  Or the kids from Long Island.  Everyone is ok.

What I can't stand are the people that you know were total f-ing losers in undergrad and now they walk around trying to act like they're hot *&^%.  We're all on equal playing field academically, and socially, unless you're boning a hot girl with a fabulous booty, I could care less where you stand.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: JD_MSA on September 30, 2004, 05:27:24 AM
I guess I am a bit sensitive.  It definitely is not all of my section-mates.  I do have some great, supportive, helpful ones.  I have a few, though, that really seem to get to me. 

In particular, one group of "boys"...they sit together in every class.  They are in my line of sight in Procedure, and they mock and laugh at everyone's answers/questions.  It's hard not to watch their reaction and wonder, "What do they do when I respond?"  I never watch. And, they sit just behind me in Torts, and whisper answers to our Prof's questions in "oh, that's SO obvious..." tones when others are asked to recite.  (Just irks me...if you're not going to be helpful or at least polite, then keep it to yourself. 

Just deciding to get over it...nothing I can do about it.  I just finished three years of teaching in the public school system, and teachers are a different bunch.  If they don't like you, they'll be passive - never outwardly critical (most of the time).  I'm not sure which is worse...passive or just plain rude :D

Those "boys" will get a rude awakening when 1st semester grades come out.  And you can turn around and tell them to shut up, because you're paying too much money to hear them talk and you'd rather hear the prof (or at least, play snood in a quiet environment).

There was a group of guys like that at my school, including a guy that got elected (by popularity contest) to be an SBA rep.  The last time I saw him, he had just gotten off the phone with his "girlfriend" and was dropping F-bombs in the library and screaming (literally screaming), "That's why you should never date 18-year olds!"

Funny, I haven't seen him this year. . . .  :D
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: urguya on April 25, 2005, 04:29:48 PM
interesting topic

*bump*
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: theexterminator on April 27, 2005, 07:26:14 PM
There are so many abercrombie frat boys who stay near each-other each and every class ... we've like 5 male/male couples and I don't doubt they're all homosexuals.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: dft on April 27, 2005, 07:43:53 PM
tagging this thread
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: NoelleMyBelle on April 27, 2005, 09:31:03 PM
I feel like there are a lot of different types of people at my school.  I know I'm certainly not the sorority type.  Surely you aren't the only one who doesn't fit under the labels in your post...is it possible that there are people outside your section or even just outside your circles who aren't like this?

Since my law school isn't really like that, I hesitate to believe that that's the norm for all law schools across the country...
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: Highway on April 28, 2005, 10:04:45 AM
Since I'll be going to the PT evening program, I'm hoping my section will be mostly the older and more mature people who have real jobs and responsibilities during the day. There will probably be at least a few kids straight out of college because they couldn't get into the full time day program with their numbers, but I figure most of them should be pretty studious for that very reason. It will probably make for a good mix.

I will say that I have very little tolerance for 22 year olds that think they are "all that." I get 5-6 hours of sleep a night, work 45 hours a week, have two small kids at home and will be going to school 3 nights a week (read: 16 hour days on those nights). If anybody sits near me that remotely acts like a bunch of frat kids, I'm liable to commit a severe tort!
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: magnolia on April 28, 2005, 10:21:07 AM


Excuse my ignorance, but what exactly does this

Quote
abercrombie frat boys

mean?
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: birgham on April 28, 2005, 10:29:40 AM


Excuse my ignorance, but what exactly does this

Quote
abercrombie frat boys

mean?

Magnolia:

"Frat boys" are males who can use gobs of hair-care products and fret about their clothes but still retain their masculinity and "guyness" in the eyes of their peers. They can jump into a pick-up basketball game with a group of strangers. They can gawk at and objectify women and still be considered endearing and cute. Frat boys take various forms, but what they all convey is the impression that comes from the right combination of physical traits and personality characteristics: striking good looks, inexplicable popularity, overt self-confidence, pervasive charm and just a hint of self-deprecation.

An air of entitlement or wealth also helps define a frat boy, as does a certain proclivity toward aggressiveness. (That's not to say that frat boys are all rich, but they probably act like they're swimming in money. Nor are they all violent -- that's unquestionably not the case -- but unchecked machismo, which they exude in great quantities, can sometimes have its downside, from frat house hazing to incidents of date rape.)

Does G.W. qualify as a frat boy? Yep. Steve Forbes? No way. Matthew McConaughey? Definitely. Jerry Seinfeld? Nope. And even when it's obvious, there are degrees of difference. For example, the dying ex-president Clinton and George W. were both frat boys, but different approaches; the difference is academic.

If you missed "The Real World," you probably haven't missed Abercrombie & Fitch, so you know the frat-boy look. The clothing store -- a step up from the Gap, a step sideways from Banana Republic -- is the definitive source of the frat-boy image. That's mostly due to its highly controversial catalog/magazine, the Abercrombie & Fitch Quarterly; the catalog's male models embody the image with their perfect abs and sly smirking grins. The look in their eyes says without question that they know you're looking at the photo with lust or envy, but probably both. And the clothing store knows you'll cover yourself in A&F gear just to try to look like the Adonises gazing out from the photos.

While clothes definitely contribute to the image -- just look around at all the young men wearing button-up, long-sleeved shirts tucked into khakis and topped with white baseball caps -- it's not just clothing or perfectly proportioned muscles and a strong jaw line that construct the image. It's not even always about youth. You can almost always see the glints of a former frat boy life in older men; although the image fades into baldness and extra padding, the golden boy at the center of it all is still there.

On another, more positive note, it appears that in his mid fifties, G.W. may be the nation's oldest, most photographed frat boy, proving that there are no age limits to the phenomenon. While A&F would instantly go out of business if it plastered its catalog's pages with boxer-clad Bush and his friends hanging on each other, he still has the athleticism -- real or perceived -- the smarmy, cocky attitude, the smirk. He pouts when things go wrong. His parents apparently clean up his messes. During debates, when other candidates ask Bush questions, he answers them as if his time would be better spent picking lint off his suit. In short, G.W. doesn't just expect to get the nomination and get elected president -- he knows he'll get it in the way a beloved, doted-upon 6-year-old knows that Santa won't stuff his stocking full of coal, no matter what he's done.

It doesn't really matter whether a frat boy has ever pledged a fraternity or even considered it. In fact, only a true fraternity boy could pull off the look without ever having set foot in a fraternity house. To be a "frat boy" one may just need to conform to a certain lifestyle, image and behavior. And CONFORMITY is the key word. From kindergarten on, we feel better, more comfortable, when we're among others who look, act and think like us. And when that mold is a powerful, sexual one like the frat boy, it's not hard to see why people flock to A&F and swoon over Colin.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: KODIAK on April 28, 2005, 10:49:54 AM
I love listening to people ripping the frat boys.  No one put it better than Tom Wolfe in his latest novel, "I Am Charlotte Simmons."  Although you have to read it to truly understand it, I can attempt to summarize it.  Frats are the last bastion of manliness on college campuses.  Everywhere you look people want to blame them for all the problems ie the fights, the drugs, drunk driving and so on.  But the blamers are really just jealous deep down, jealous of men who have a take-no-*&^% attitude, which is oh so rare in our society today.  Us frat-boys are some of the few guys in college these days with a developed instinct to think and react like men.
G.W. is a good example.  His boldness and decisiveness clearly won him the latest election.  In contrast, we saw a politically correct, wishy washy sissy in John Kerry.  G.W.'s cockiness kept the barrage of (in many cases) unfair and untrue criticism from the media from bothering him.  Kerry on the other hand couldn't make up his mind on anything b/c he feared criticism.  The hallmark of the frat-boy: never fear anything, or at least don't ever come across as fearing anything.
 
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: trichomoniasis on April 28, 2005, 10:51:57 AM
Quote
There are so many abercrombie frat boys who stay near each-other each and every class ... we've like 5 male/male couples and I don't doubt they're all homosexuals.

As to this "frat boy" type of thing male, fraternities, and the like ...

Fraternities are said to have their origin in the Middle Ages when young men would go off to foreign countries to study in the new universities at Bologna or Paris. Men from the same countries clung together in the notion of brotherhood.

In early America, the founders of collegiate fraternities chose to name their organizations using Greek letters (Phi Beta Kappa being the first, in 1776), drawing upon the high culture of ancient Greece. Fraternities slowly spread across the United States, and what we know as the "social fraternity" has its roots in the mid-to late 19th century. Following tradition, these men chose to name their organizations using Greek letters.

Because Western civilization has chosen to emulate and draw upon the accomplishments of ancient Greece doesn't mean that the cultural standards in their society were comparable to ours. In fact, the Greeks were far more modern in their acceptance of homosexuality. Most of the greatest Greek citizens were active participants in homosexual sex.

Manly love was a common fixture of everyday Greek life. The Greeks practiced what was called pederasty: open sexual relationships between older men and adolescent boys. Both Plato and Xenophon explored the beauty of this love in their "Symposiums."

Distinguished Athenian citizens would stand around the gymnasium, where young boys ran naked, and the men would pick and choose a boy for a lover. This was all very legal, as long as the boy had reached puberty. Solon the lawgiver, himself a pederast, imposed strict laws against children being included in this practice. Boys were only attractive to older men if they had no hair on their face, thighs or buttocks. There were many arguments among the philosophers about which was greater: sex with a woman or sex with an adolescent boy. Achilles Tatius wrote, "Boys' sweat has a finer smell than anything in a woman's makeup box." In mythology we see such relationships between Zeus and Ganymede, Dionysus and Ampelos and Apollo with Hyacinthus and Cyparissus.


(http://www.daghettotymz.com/current/greeks/greekquote.jpg)


The Spartan soldiers - some of the most heroic and masculine warriors in history - participated actively in homosexual sex. Alexander the Great had a longtime male companion. When the corpses of Theban soldiers were found on the battlefield at Chaeronea, they were found in couples. Each loving pair of men fought bravely to their deaths, back to back.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: Brisco on April 28, 2005, 09:02:37 PM
Three years of law school is certainly a difficult thing to face. First off you're going to need to buy at least 10 different prep books before you even start. Perhaps a few prep courses, some basic self defense classes, and rigorous exercise. There are only a few basic rules that are true at any school, don't rat out your fellow students, don't be friendly with the guards, and try to beat up someone on your first day to show others that you mean business. It's usually best to join a clique as soon as possible, you don't want to be the lone 1L in a group of 2L's come shower time.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: bandito on May 06, 2005, 03:56:36 PM
Quote
There are only a few basic rules that are true at any school, don't rat out your fellow students, don't be friendly with the guards, and try to beat up someone on your first day to show others that you mean business. It's usually best to join a clique as soon as possible, you don't want to be the lone 1L in a group of 2L's come shower time.

These are conveniently modifiable to mean also,

Quote
Rat out your fellow students.

Be friendly with the guards.

Don't try to beat up someone on your first day to show others that you mean business.

It's usually best not to join a clique as soon as possible, you don't want to be the lone 1L in a group of 2L's come shower time
.

Sorry, I had to! :)

Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: Ezekiel on May 06, 2005, 07:01:53 PM
Magnolia:

"Frat boys" are males who can use gobs of hair-care products and fret about their clothes but still retain their masculinity and "guyness" in the eyes of their peers. They can jump into a pick-up basketball game with a group of strangers. They can gawk at and objectify women and still be considered endearing and cute. Frat boys take various forms, but what they all convey is the impression that comes from the right combination of physical traits and personality characteristics: striking good looks, inexplicable popularity, overt self-confidence, pervasive charm and just a hint of self-deprecation.

An air of entitlement or wealth also helps define a frat boy, as does a certain proclivity toward aggressiveness. (That's not to say that frat boys are all rich, but they probably act like they're swimming in money. Nor are they all violent -- that's unquestionably not the case -- but unchecked machismo, which they exude in great quantities, can sometimes have its downside, from frat house hazing to incidents of date rape.)

Does G.W. qualify as a frat boy? Yep. Steve Forbes? No way. Matthew McConaughey? Definitely. Jerry Seinfeld? Nope. And even when it's obvious, there are degrees of difference. For example, the dying ex-president Clinton and George W. were both frat boys, but different approaches; the difference is academic.

If you missed "The Real World," you probably haven't missed Abercrombie & Fitch, so you know the frat-boy look. The clothing store -- a step up from the Gap, a step sideways from Banana Republic -- is the definitive source of the frat-boy image. That's mostly due to its highly controversial catalog/magazine, the Abercrombie & Fitch Quarterly; the catalog's male models embody the image with their perfect abs and sly smirking grins. The look in their eyes says without question that they know you're looking at the photo with lust or envy, but probably both. And the clothing store knows you'll cover yourself in A&F gear just to try to look like the Adonises gazing out from the photos.

While clothes definitely contribute to the image -- just look around at all the young men wearing button-up, long-sleeved shirts tucked into khakis and topped with white baseball caps -- it's not just clothing or perfectly proportioned muscles and a strong jaw line that construct the image. It's not even always about youth. You can almost always see the glints of a former frat boy life in older men; although the image fades into baldness and extra padding, the golden boy at the center of it all is still there.

On another, more positive note, it appears that in his mid fifties, G.W. may be the nation's oldest, most photographed frat boy, proving that there are no age limits to the phenomenon. While A&F would instantly go out of business if it plastered its catalog's pages with boxer-clad Bush and his friends hanging on each other, he still has the athleticism -- real or perceived -- the smarmy, cocky attitude, the smirk. He pouts when things go wrong. His parents apparently clean up his messes. During debates, when other candidates ask Bush questions, he answers them as if his time would be better spent picking lint off his suit. In short, G.W. doesn't just expect to get the nomination and get elected president -- he knows he'll get it in the way a beloved, doted-upon 6-year-old knows that Santa won't stuff his stocking full of coal, no matter what he's done.

It doesn't really matter whether a frat boy has ever pledged a fraternity or even considered it. In fact, only a true fraternity boy could pull off the look without ever having set foot in a fraternity house. To be a "frat boy" one may just need to conform to a certain lifestyle, image and behavior. And CONFORMITY is the key word. From kindergarten on, we feel better, more comfortable, when we're among others who look, act and think like us. And when that mold is a powerful, sexual one like the frat boy, it's not hard to see why people flock to A&F and swoon over Colin.


I must say that this is the best frat boy definition I have ever heard.  Really, it should be published.  I never thought of G.W. as a frat boy, but your totally right.  Clinton is the ultimate frat boy since JFK (at least as politicians are concerned) and John Kerry was a frat boy wanna be.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: rapunzel on May 06, 2005, 07:44:23 PM
Like the OP my background is artsy and I did find the composition of my class to be a very different group of people than I was used to hanging out with.  (Creativity is significantly undervalued, homophobia runs high as prime examples).  However, I now find myself good friends with several incarnations of the frat boy type.  It's a very interesting study.  They aren't as bad as I had suspected.  ;)
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: 11,5sep on May 13, 2005, 12:39:11 PM
Quote
However, I now find myself good friends with several incarnations of the frat boy type.  It's a very interesting study.  They aren't as bad as I had suspected

maybe youre becoming a "frat boy" yourself ;D
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: rapunzel on May 13, 2005, 04:09:49 PM
Haha, not even concievable. 
Title: Law school ELATION...
Post by: iamajd2b on May 14, 2005, 11:10:03 AM
Hey, so, like, I'm done with the first year, and I survived.  Any hints of depression are a thing of the past...
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: shambala on May 19, 2005, 07:01:13 PM
Quote
I must say that this is the best frat boy definition I have ever heard.  Really, it should be published.

I think it IS published, Ezekiel!
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: Jude on May 30, 2005, 12:10:36 AM



(http://www.daghettotymz.com/current/greeks/greekquote.jpg)



SACRED COMMUNION OF THIGHS!

Boys, this is really funny! LOL
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: tacojohn on May 30, 2005, 01:38:06 PM
You all missed out on the greatest thrill of any undergrad career.  There is only one position on campus that gives you absolute power over the emotions of a bunch of frat boys.  It's not the dean of students, it's not the president, it's not a professor.  It's the intramural officials.  It's amazing how they believe they run that program, then for you to have 50-500 of them in the palm of your hand, waiting to be crushed at an intramural basketball game.  I can play them like a violin, boos and cheers.  Ok, I'm a little more professional than that, but it was very thereputic to cut them down to size when neccessary.

Best part of that job, I also got to do the same thing to law students as an undergrad.  Two things about law students: one, they are some of the worst behaved intramural participants around.  And two, nothing is more humiliating to them than having anything they do controlled by an undergrad student, or finding out that an undergrad knows something better than they do.

Considering all of this, all the posturing, competitiveness, showmanship, etc. won't bother me when I start law school in the fall.  Because in the back of my head I'll just be thinking "[TWEET-TWEET] Technical foul, blue 32"
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: rachelle on June 02, 2005, 10:53:43 AM
If you are experiencing depression or stress (or just feel miserable) in law school, there are actually many resources for you.  Don't try to 'tough it out' alone.  Try http://www.Lawyers Assistance.org for a ton of information on depression and the impact it has on lawyers and law students.  Also avail yourself of help from your state's free, confidential Lawyers Assistance Program (find them at http://www.ConfidentialHelp.com. 

They are excellent with issues of stress, depression, drugs, alcohol, addictions and other things that can make law school very hard (or seemingly impossible) to cope with.  They are free and confidential, and they are there for you.   Take a look at the website http://www.LawyersAssistance.org and bookmark it.  Even if you don't need it, chances are that you know someone who does.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: danlauer on June 03, 2005, 12:19:02 AM
Quote
Boys, this is really funny! LOL

Funny?! It may be fun, but funny?! I mean, if you don't think it's fun, that wouldn't be funny, it'd be horrendous, wouldn't it?!
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: brillo on June 15, 2005, 06:59:28 PM
One of those frat boys proposed me one day to play wit him ... and yanno what he wanted to do? just jack off each-other .. jesus, I couldn't believe it ... I mean, why couldn't we do the real thing? Anyway, I handled him the way I should in the end ..
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: Melinda on June 16, 2005, 11:06:06 AM
I am a 0L and this site is definately confirming my worst fears.  I went to Law Preview last week, and noticed right away how diff. these ppl are from undergrad, and we were not even competing for grades. 

I went to a liberal undergrad and studied social work.  We like to talk about our feelings and how evil Republicans are.  It is a totally different genre of ppl.  I still have happy hour once a month with my previous classmates.  When I tell them about law school and my jobs in law offices they look at me horrified.

In addition, I am attending a school with a bad rep for being hostile and competitive (Hastings).  I am not sure how true the rumors will be.  I feel like I need to go drop $1,000 at Lacoste and totally sell out to fit in.  Hopefully I will find a few like minded ppl. 

Anyway nice to have a place I can relate to some ppl. I really enjoyed everyone's perspective especially the frat boy jokes.  I have a magnet on my fridge with a picture of GW that says "Making the world a safer place for frat boys"
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: Grubesac on June 17, 2005, 01:58:15 PM
I used to dress entirely in thrift store purchases, although, unfortunatley, I've recently migrated to a more stylish T-shirt and jeans approach. People couldn't handle the red pants. Point being, I'll too be at Hastings so maybe you and I can fit in by standing out. Its worked for me in the past.

I really don't think things will be hostile. People will make friends, and be friendly. I've heard its a very undeserved reputation. Its a tough grading curve and everyone wants to be on top, but why should that make someone unfriendly? How I treat any of my class mates isn't going to affect if I get an A on a test. Moreover, its fairly hard to tear pages out of lexis nexis. I suppose maybe people won't want to share and study together, but I guess that doesn't bother me. If I want/need a study group, I'll find one, but otherwise I've always studied alone anyway.

See you in a couple months...Do we have a mascot? We need one. I'm campaigning for a Hastings mascot.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: Melinda on June 17, 2005, 09:18:13 PM

See you in a couple months...Do we have a mascot? We need one. I'm campaigning for a Hastings mascot.

We will have to work on that.  My high school mascot was an Oiler (I am from Huntington Beach originally an oil town).  I don't think I could do worse.  I also was a thrift store kid.  Now I come home with $150 jeans, and my mom was like I remember when you would not pay more than $5 for jeans.  It will always haunt me.  Now I drop 10x the money for clothes that look vintage.  lol.  I feel like a sell out.  I also have a couple big tats, but luckily they are all easily covered.  We definately need to hang out.  When are you moving up there?
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: pols on June 18, 2005, 12:12:08 AM
I definitely sympathize with the OP, but I think people are overexaggerating this "frat boy mentality" stuff. The main problem is the undervaluing of creativity in law school.

I come from an unconventional background - I am a highly creative type, a musician and poet, and I'm also a frat alum. While I have significant criticism of frat life and some of the values it instills, I am grateful for those four years for helping me to become a social and confident person. I get along quite easily with most of the people I've met in law school. However, it is true that my best friends here are the "outsiders" -  the people who don't really fit into any stereotype, or that like more unconventional things like, gasp, non-top 40 music. Law school (not the classes, but the people) can be stifling for creative types, so we have to stick together.

I will also concur with previous posters in saying that while I don't smoke, I've found curiously enough that law students who smoke are more laid-back and interesting than the rest of the law school population. That's a generalization maybe, but eh... it's not like this thread is a stranger to rampant generalization :)
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: T. Durden on June 20, 2005, 02:48:51 AM
ok i'm just another ignoramous 0L but i'm bored out of my mind right now and why not thrown in my two cents ...

i LOVED the law students-to-be that i met at preview day. they were a gregarious, loquacious, like-minded sort of people who I found intensely easy (and eager) to talk to about whatever topic that managed to come up. now, after reading the majority of the posts on this thread, i realize that my initial appraisal was somewhat and maybe overly optimistic - but i'm still excited to start law school ...

you people are biggest bunch of buzz-kills ever :)

maybe a little backgroud first, before the hordes tear me to pieces on this one. i have spent the past three years of my life packed away behind a lab bench pushing pipetters interacting with intensely right-brained people. so it was, let me say, "refreshing" to meet people who were capable of normal conversation. so the thrill of this may wear off, no biggy, i'm still looking forward to meeting new people...

and i HOPE that law students are half decent people, and my hope still prevails now (even after four pages of derisive anti typical law student harangues) because if they're not then i'm headed directly for some fifth week depression - me being a "shakka brah" so cal surfer kid headed to a big time stodgy east coast law school where i will know NO ONE. think i'll fit in? maybe i should lie and tell everyone that i was in a frat :)

ok, enough of this, but if you want to read something that is TRULY depressing and / or scary you should check this out:

http://www.jd2b.com/VanderbiltLawReview.pdf

don't freak out when you initially open it - the size of the font is enormous and you'll burn through a page in 30 sec - the first 40 pages are definitely worth reading even if just for the hard numbers and statistical analysis that the author presents. the last forty or so get a little wishy washy / op-ed but still good if you feel like reading more.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: Trevor on June 20, 2005, 07:17:38 PM
For your collective enjoyment, may I present, courtesy of the Barely Legal Blog, http://barelylegalblog.blogspot.com/2005/04/people-you-meet-at-law-school-7-frat.html.

Anyway, I had an experniece like T. Druden's at preview day.  *&^%, I'm even another SoCal kid hitting up the Ivy-covered East.  I was really worried that everyone would be uptight, shifty-eyed, and competitive, and was thrilled to meet a bunch of people I could hand out with.  If that makes us all frat boys, I can live with that.  Pledging was one of the best decisions I made in my UGrad career.

At any rate, I'm glad the OP got everything sorted out.  See people?  There is hope!
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: buggy on June 22, 2005, 12:51:21 PM
Wow.

Has anyone else out there read the Vanderbilt Law Review article referenced by T. Durden??

Thank you for putting the link on this site.  I haven't thought too much about the rigors of working for a "Big Firm" but I now certainly have a lot of food for thought.  On a more generalized basis, I am sure not many of us still in law school (or waiting to begin!) have given much thought to ethics and job satisfaction, but I can already see how jumping into an entirely new culture fresh out of law school can lead to habits never thought to be in one's behavior pattern. 

Again I say...wow.  Curious to see if any others have an opinion/reaction to the piece...
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: Grubesac on June 23, 2005, 02:48:54 PM
I've been hearing these things for the past four months and I've begun to take them very, very seriously. My girlfriend who recently interned for Governor Tim Pawlenty relayed his words of wisdom to me, an individual already in a state of uncertainty.
At a thank you reception for a number of interns who worked for him, he asked, out of the blue, "So are any of you thinking about going to law school?" No one spoke. He said, "Good" and nodded slightly. "My only advice to you all is DON'T GO TO LAW SCHOOL. Do whatever it is that interests you, and run with it. If you are at all outgoing, law school will suck the life and personality out of you."

So yeah, I've thought about it. I'm accepted to UC Hastings and I may not go. Maybe I'll reapply in two years, maybe I'll do something else. Maybe I'll take some time to really figure out what the hell makes up this thing I call me. Wanting to be successful and saying "What else would I do" is not a very good reason. I'm not so sure "getting into politics" is a very good reason either. Being a government lawyer would be alright, maybe, I don't know, but if I want to be a government lawyer I won't make much more than I make right now and so there really isn't a rush to get into right this instant then is there?

Food for thought.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: BIG H2001 on June 23, 2005, 03:18:00 PM
Quote
If you are at all outgoing, law school will suck the life and personality out of you.

That's a bit of a ridiculous statement.  Are you implying that if you're not outgoing then you have no personality or "life" and that law school will be a sound decision since there is nothing else to be excited about anyway?  Also, if you are outgoing and law school starts to drag you down, you manage it and find other outlets to express your creativity, sociability, whatever it is that makes you "outgoing." You don't say "I'm outgoing, screw law school that's for people who have no personality." 
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: maney on June 23, 2005, 06:01:33 PM
Quote
Do whatever it is that interests you, and run with it. If you are at all outgoing, law school will suck the life and personality out of you."

Actually most of the people who actually go to law school do not have a life or personality!
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: buggy on June 23, 2005, 07:34:54 PM
Grubsac...I hear where you are coming from!  Way too many people are in law school for not just the wrong reasons...but for lack of a reason.  Law: the default career.  Anyway, this may sound cheezy, but I hope anyone out there who is examining life after law school by using intangible variables look into getting a great book by Po Bronson..."What Should I Do With My Life"...it is NOT self help, but rather great stories of folks who have made career changes (for better or worse)...I have recommended it to may friends who are in their 'mid-twenties crisis' and examining future career options.  Seriously, a great read.

On another note...after discovering that my true desire is the law...it is still frustrating to think of the wide disparity in salaries based on the type of law being practiced.  For me, the thought of sacrificing years of free time and lots of money in order to make substantially less money (public interest law) sucks the life right out of me.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: frame of mind on July 07, 2005, 07:06:49 PM
In actuality, they say that if you don't know what profession to choose, it may just be a good idea to go to law school to become a lawyer.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: Grubesac on July 08, 2005, 07:03:06 AM
Thats interesting. I don't think I've ever heard anything other than the exact opposite. I assume you are being facetious.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: alb on July 08, 2005, 09:32:55 AM
Quote
law school will suck the life and personality out of you.

That explains a lot about Governor Pawlenty (J.D. University of Minnesota 1986).

Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: Grubesac on July 08, 2005, 12:22:44 PM
Funny, I just said hello to him today. I ran into him on my walk to work as he was ducking into WCCO radio to do his show.

I really love his no tax pledge that has shifted the source of education funding regressively towards local property taxes. He needs to wake up. I think I'm going to charge him a fee for being an idiot.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: Noelle on July 13, 2005, 12:50:54 PM
Thats interesting. I don't think I've ever heard anything other than the exact opposite. [...]

Which means that in the lawyers' way of speaking you've heard exactly what the poster said!
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: labamba on July 17, 2005, 08:57:56 PM
LOL noelle! ;)
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: anoddduck on July 21, 2005, 06:00:02 PM
One more thing...

Another thing I've learned in the "real world" since graduating from college is that getting along with others, fitting in, and earning respect are some of the most important things that college *should* train you for.  They are invaluable real life skills.  I am *not* preaching conformity here, but no matter how smart you are, you can't succeed in life completely autonomous from the rest of the society you are trying to succeed in.  I think this is the reason many "Greeks" have a huge advantage coming out of college.  There are very few situations in life where exactly what you know is more important that your ability to interact with others:  To communicate those ideas, listen to and evaluate someone's response, and learn completely new ideas from those around you. 

As someone who joined a sorority after thinking she would never be "that kind" of person, let me tell you,

(1) I was in a sorority at UC Berkeley, so none of us were ever actually stupid.

(2) There is incredible social value in taking part in rush--both as a potential new member and as a recruiting member.

Some of the best things I learned:

How to make idle chit-chat with anyone
How to have a "pleasant resting face"
How to remember the name of someone you met three minutes ago and have to introduce to someone else

Really, the main benefits I reaped from going Greek were social.  And seeing as they are social organziations, I'd say they kept up their end of the bargain...

On the other hand, I don't have a clue what it would be like to be in a Sorority in Texas, or anywhere else where that sort of thing really matters.  (I imagine it's a different story...)
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: T. Durden on July 22, 2005, 12:31:52 AM
i think that there exists a certain degree of irony in the fact that people isolate themselves into what are more or less exclusive groups of hone their social skills ... the logic of training yourself to be more social by effectively isolating yourself from the general collegiate cross sectin is, well uhh counter intuitive

(i want to relate to to people better ! ugh, wait, that purse is sooooo gucci !!!)
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: anoddduck on July 22, 2005, 01:36:47 PM
i think that there exists a certain degree of irony in the fact that people isolate themselves into what are more or less exclusive groups of hone their social skills ... the logic of training yourself to be more social by effectively isolating yourself from the general collegiate cross sectin is, well uhh counter intuitive

(i want to relate to to people better ! ugh, wait, that purse is sooooo gucci !!!)

I didn't mean that being in the sorority was the beneficial part--though that was kinda neat.  (With that many women in one place, there was someone to study with and/or someone to go out and play with at all times.)

The beneficial part was actually the recruiting process, specifically the having done it from both sides.  It really gives you an inside perspective to the whole interviewer/interviewee thing.  It makes you much more aware of yourself and the impressions you are giving off without even meaning to...

In short, you don't hone your social skills by being IN the group (though there is something to be said for being able to manage and dodge "office" politics that are going on in your living environment). 

It is the GETTING IN to the group that hones your skills, and then they are honed again when you do it from the other side...
Title: Student depression becomes an issue of faculty concern
Post by: )( on August 08, 2005, 03:32:32 AM
Law student stress and depression are problems that have become national in scope. While students enter law school suffering from clinical stress and depression at a rate that mirrors the national average, this number skyrockets during the first year of law school. Studies have shown that law students suffer from clinical stress and depression at a rate that is three to four times higher than the national average.

These same studies indicate that student stress rises steadily through the third year of law school and then improves only moderately after graduation. At this point, law students show signs of stress that is twice the national average. Unfortunately, this sad story continues after law school. Lawyers are more likely to suffer from clinical depression, marital difficulties, and substance abuse than are any other professionals.

At Suffolk University Law School, we have tried a number of things to reach out to and educate our students on this topic. For example, we have brought in counselors to speak to students during orientation. While this was an effective way to introduce the class to the university counseling center, the students did not tend to take the warning seriously. It was simply too early in the year, and they had yet to experience the rigors of law school life.

At other times, we have offered stress- reduction seminars during the semester. Through evaluations, we found that attendees learned quite a bit from these sessions. Most importantly, they learned about the necessity of maintaining a healthy balance in life between law school and everything else. Attendance at these sessions was, however, quite small. Attendance never rose beyond 20 students, which is disappointing when one considers that our first-year class is more than 550 students strong.

Just recently, we decided to try a somewhat different tack. In the past, we concentrated our efforts on reaching out to students. This year, we offered a faculty colloquium at which we laid out the problem of student stress and depression.

Our hope was to educate the faculty on the topic and to use their influence to help us reach out to students. Our fear was that professors would be unreceptive to the topic. We were concerned that many would adopt the attitude that stress in law school is normal, and that any attempt to deal with the issue would be tantamount to coddling our students.

As for the presentation itself, we divided the material into four sections. We started our presentation with the same statistics I mentioned at the outset of this article. Then, we attempted to relate these numbers to specific examples of students in distress at Suffolk Law School. Next, we reviewed some of the common warning signs of stress and depression. The final aspect of the presentation, our recommendations, generated the most interest and largest number of questions from attendees.

For the most part, recommendations revolved around the idea of improved and increased communication between faculty and students. For example, educators understand that students place an inordinate amount of emphasis on comments made by their professors. Students long to hear positive comments from their professors but are loathe to hear the negative. We recommended that professors temper their negative comments, not with false praise, but with additional information. For example, an invitation to visit a professor during office hours can indicate that someone in the law school truly cares about that student’s performance. Similarly, a professor who notices that a student has been absent for several days, or is falling asleep in class, or suddenly seems lost and raises the issue with the student is demonstrating concern for that student’s well-being. In a large lecture hall setting, students value any hint of personalized attention.

We next moved on to communication in the form of individualized feedback. One of the most common complaints voiced by law students is the lack of feedback they receive from their professors. The problem is particularly acute in first-year classes where professors assign grades based solely on a final examination, or possibly a final and a midterm. At Suffolk, our current grading procedures preclude professors from providing students with graded feedback other than in the form of a midterm and final examination. We noted that no professor should be compelled to provide graded feedback throughout the semester, but that precluding a professor from doing so seemed inconsistent with academic freedom.

Our final recommendation to the faculty involved student study habits. Most professors agreed that students should spend approximately three hours studying outside of class for every hour in class. At Suffolk, where first-year, full-time students are enrolled in 15 credit hours of classes, this adds up to approximately 60 hours a week devoted to law school. During weeks when important writing assignments are due, this number may climb to 70 hours a week.

Some of the literature we reviewed in preparing the presentation asked why law school should consume so much of a student’s time. In presenting this issue to the faculty, we took a slightly different tack, fearing that a discussion of fewer hours studying would devolve into a discussion of changes to the curriculum. Instead, we focused our attention on the idea of maintaining balance.

In the surveys they had completed for us, professors noted that they had dealt with stress by engaging in activities unrelated to law school. Common examples included getting physical exercise, spending time with family and friends, reading for pleasure, and going to movies. We suggested to the faculty that they dealt with stress by maintaining balance in their lives, and that we had the responsibility to recommend the same to our students. Too often, we emphasize only the need for additional studies. We do so both explicitly and implicitly when we relate stories about ourselves, our successful careers, and how much time we spent studying. While additional studying can be important, we should mention another important ingredient to our success—time spent away from law school.

The faculty’s response to the colloquium was a pleasant surprise. The session was well enough attended that additional tables and chairs had to be brought into the room. The faculty listened attentively throughout the presentation, and no one suggested that the issue was unworthy of further discussion.

When we presented the data we had gathered from the literature, most faculty members were shocked at the prevalence of the problem and even accepted some responsibility for helping to deal with it. In fact, several faculty members suggested that the dean create a committee whose sole responsibility would be to research the topic further and make recommendations to the faculty on how to proceed. Others asked if we would make a similar presentation to their classes later in the semester.

In the days since the presentation, we have received many e-mails from faculty thanking us for bringing the topic to their attention. Our modest approach of simply informing the faculty that this issue exists seems to have had the desired effect. The issues of student stress and depression are now on the faculty’s radar screen.

http://www.abanet.org/lsd/studentlawyer/apr05/opinion.html
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: _/ on August 16, 2005, 02:45:41 AM
Quote
At Suffolk, where first-year, full-time students are enrolled in 15 credit hours of classes, this adds up to approximately 60 hours a week devoted to law school.

Why so many hours to be devoted to law school?! I mean, 15 credit hours equal to only 15 hours of dedication. 
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: dkast on August 16, 2005, 06:29:30 AM
So i wondering if this is just me...but i hate the people in law school!!!  


Who cares about the other people, just be concerned with yourself, i understand your point but it shouldnt be relevant to you learning law.  There was this girl in one of my classes who went in there quoting all these cases and actually telling the professor how she would  decide the case.  Keep in mind, the professor just asked for the facts in the case.

Anyway my advice dont even worry about the other people..just be concerned with yourself and becoming a good attorney.

Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: rapunzel on August 17, 2005, 03:57:03 PM
Why so many hours to be devoted to law school?! I mean, 15 credit hours equal to only 15 hours of dedication.

Well, 15 credit hours means 15 weekly hours of class time.  Most students figure they should put in, oh I don't know, a few hours beyond that, give or take.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: dontaskdontell on August 22, 2005, 11:53:12 AM
Why so many hours to be devoted to law school?! I mean, 15 credit hours equal to only 15 hours of dedication.

Well, 15 credit hours means 15 weekly hours of class time.  Most students figure they should put in, oh I don't know, a few hours beyond that, give or take.

Correct! For instance, you've to dedicate a hell of a lot of time to the Legal Writing and Research class.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: ($) on August 24, 2005, 10:55:37 AM
Why so many hours to be devoted to law school?! I mean, 15 credit hours equal to only 15 hours of dedication.

Well, 15 credit hours means 15 weekly hours of class time.  Most students figure they should put in, oh I don't know, a few hours beyond that, give or take.

1st semester of 1st year = Legal Writing & Research I
Last week of semester & Exam period = Other Classes

2nd semester of 1st year = Legal Writing & Research II
Last week of semester & Exam period = Other Classes
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: laurenh2004 on August 24, 2005, 12:59:07 PM
Wow, I'm new on this site and after reading this thread I'm not sure I want any part of it anymore, seeing as I'm probably the exact "type" of person everyone seems to be so angry about (I'm 23 and was in a sorority in undergrad).  I was under the impression that, as graduate students, my peers would act like adults.  I did not think that people would project this sort of stereotype on me because of my age, appearance, or the way that I dress...how sophomoric.  I didn't come to law school because I needed more friends, but I certainly never suspected that my mere presence in the classroom would anger whatever faction of the room decided I wasn't enough like they are.  Maybe some of the depressed people would feel a little better if they lightened up a little and quit writing half their classmates off as "sorority chicks."  Since we're all going to be lawyers eventually, it may be in your best interest to start growing up now.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: istically on September 06, 2005, 03:37:45 PM
Quote
15 credit hours equal to only 15 hours of dedication

Dedication to surfing, Internet games, chatrooms, etc, maybe?!

Just kidding ;)
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: Melinda on September 13, 2005, 12:39:24 AM
Having now started law school it is definately the pretentious gunner types than the frat boy types that create law school depression in my world.

For example, somehow the most obnoxious guy in class got elected to be class rep.  Here is an example of the types of e-mails he sends us over the list serve...

 "As I mentioned at the end of CivPro last week, our section's breakfast
is in fact this Wednesday
morning from 9-10.30am.  Not being there will constitute circumstantial evidence
of being square. 

yours,
(jerkoff's name omitted)
1L Section Rep"

Just needed to vent.  It is frustrating that the person who got elected is a gunner, being elected worsened his gunner tendencies...
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: dft on September 13, 2005, 11:46:27 AM
Student depression becomes an issue of faculty concern

by Herbert N. Ramy

http://www.abanet.org/lsd/studentlawyer/apr05/opinion.html
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: jimmyjohn on September 13, 2005, 03:35:23 PM
Having now started law school it is definately the pretentious gunner types than the frat boy types that create law school depression in my world.

For example, somehow the most obnoxious guy in class got elected to be class rep.  Here is an example of the types of e-mails he sends us over the list serve...

 "As I mentioned at the end of CivPro last week, our section's breakfast
is in fact this Wednesday
morning from 9-10.30am.  Not being there will constitute circumstantial evidence
of being square. 

yours,
(jerkoff's name omitted)
1L Section Rep"

Just needed to vent.  It is frustrating that the person who got elected is a gunner, being elected worsened his gunner tendencies...


Who the @#!* voted for this person?  I hope he won because of low voter turnout and not because people think he will be a good representative of them.  If the latter is the case, I would try to transfer.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: MR2Tyler on September 14, 2005, 11:22:32 PM
"And, when they graduate they won't be on top anymore because mere coolness is no longer rewarded in the real world, and the people who were dorks or gunners in law school will be the successful ones."

I've been hearing that each year since elementary school.  I'm starting to think that's not actually what's going to happen.  Just saying.

Ya'll must have it pretty bad.  I love my classmates.  They're much sharper than my classmates in undergrad, they're legitimately interested in being there, and they're generally very nice people.  I couldn't be much happier.

-Ty
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: DodgerLaw on September 14, 2005, 11:44:20 PM
Why so many hours to be devoted to law school?! I mean, 15 credit hours equal to only 15 hours of dedication.

Well, 15 credit hours means 15 weekly hours of class time.  Most students figure they should put in, oh I don't know, a few hours beyond that, give or take.

1st semester of 1st year = Legal Writing & Research I
Last week of semester & Exam period = Other Classes

2nd semester of 1st year = Legal Writing & Research II
Last week of semester & Exam period = Other Classes


The above can be found by doing a Google Search entitled "How to Fail Law School".
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: eray01 on September 15, 2005, 10:50:57 AM
"And, when they graduate they won't be on top anymore because mere coolness is no longer rewarded in the real world, and the people who were dorks or gunners in law school will be the successful ones."

I've been hearing that each year since elementary school.  I'm starting to think that's not actually what's going to happen.  Just saying.

Ya'll must have it pretty bad.  I love my classmates.  They're much sharper than my classmates in undergrad, they're legitimately interested in being there, and they're generally very nice people.  I couldn't be much happier.

-Ty
That's a good point. I may just be unknowingly quoting propaganda generated by the geek conspiracy.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: spouse on September 16, 2005, 06:40:28 AM
Quote
Ya'll must have it pretty bad.  I love my classmates.  They're much sharper than my classmates in undergrad, they're legitimately interested in being there, and they're generally very nice people.  I couldn't be much happier.

Oh, okay, Ty, it's your right to be happy!
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: pissedoff11 on September 23, 2005, 05:34:46 PM
Why so many hours to be devoted to law school?! I mean, 15 credit hours equal to only 15 hours of dedication.

Well, 15 credit hours means 15 weekly hours of class time.  Most students figure they should put in, oh I don't know, a few hours beyond that, give or take.

1st semester of 1st year = Legal Writing & Research I
Last week of semester & Exam period = Other Classes

2nd semester of 1st year = Legal Writing & Research II
Last week of semester & Exam period = Other Classes


You just can't handle all the work for other classes at the end of the semester and during the exam time period. For instance, you'll have an outline of 80 - 100 pages (I mean "rules of law") that you'll need to memorize (really "memorize") in 4-5 days. Can you? Of course you can not! 
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: rapunzel on September 24, 2005, 10:40:19 AM
This is true, but then I have never attempted to memorize an 80 pages outline.  I think there is a lot of value in focusing on the writing because that is where you learn how to use the law persuasively and that is ultimatly very important on the exams.  Yes, you need to know the law cold for an exam, but you also must develop the skills to use that law as applied to the fact pattern. 

What is written in these 80 page outlines?  I've never found the essentials of a class to take up more that 10-15 pages.  Which is memorizable in 4-5 days.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: canine on September 24, 2005, 02:53:49 PM
My first-year outlines (which included just rules and examples to illustrate those rules) were this long:

Torts: 125 pages
Property: 150 pages
Cr Law: 85 pages
Contracts : 200 pages
Civ Pro: 140 pages
Con Law: 160 pages

I took a second-year Elective Course during the summer, on the other hand, and the outline for that class was just 55 pages long. Once you get past the Required Courses you are pretty much done with law school.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: jacy85 on September 24, 2005, 04:09:59 PM
Those seem ridiculously long.  I'd assume that the process of making them was incredibly useful, and solidified how things fit together and evolved.

A couple of 2Ls have suggested making the huge outline, but then going through and cutting it up before the final, and bringing only about 20-30 pages into the exam with you.

Did you find your 100 page outlines helpful?  Or were they helpful, but still a bit unwieldy due to the length?
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: bob9 on September 24, 2005, 05:16:33 PM
Jacy, I suspect OP has used Gilberts, which ARE that long. On the other hand, I'd say that reading just the Capsule Summaries you're good to go.

On the issue of being able or not to memorize in 4-5 days the material ... you're definitely able to ... I mean, even assuming you end up with 100 pages of an outline, it'd be just 20-25 pages a day.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: tinyandi on September 25, 2005, 09:57:24 AM
OMG...I totally understand.  I couldn't got to a school where I could fit less.  The first day of orientation, I had TWO guys come up to me go "Nice hair" and scuff.  Only because its dyed black and red.

Everyone here seems to be millionaires who don't have to worry about money at all.  I had a guy even scofff at my anime desktop and two guys (peering over my AIM conversation between classes) say, "You still play video games?"  Why is it that I don't fit in at all?  Or are all law students into "Law & Order," drinking at bars, makeup, teeny bopping music and gap clothes?  I really didn't think I'd get to Law School and feel like I was being in high school again, being judged because I listen to punk, dress a bit odd, and prefer my hair color to look somewhat cool and different.

I love my professors.  I love the campus.  I love my reading.  I just don't seem to click with ANY of the students.  Help. I would hate to feel the need to transfer over something as trivial as the student population.  Any suggestions?
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: eray01 on September 25, 2005, 12:54:15 PM
I feel the same way. I'd transfer, but I can't guarantee it would be any different anywhere else. In fact, I have a strong feeling it probably wouldn't. I'm thinking about transferring home to the local law school. At least I can hang out with my old friends, and that's where I want to practice anyway. You're right it is just like high school. I think I could write a top ten list. But, just like high school, it'll be over eventually and what happened there socially won't mean sh-t. The only thing that will matter is how you've spent your time academically.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: desnick on September 25, 2005, 07:01:47 PM
Jacy, I suspect OP has used Gilberts, which ARE that long. On the other hand, I'd say that reading just the Capsule Summaries you're good to go.

On the issue of being able or not to memorize in 4-5 days the material ... you're definitely able to ... I mean, even assuming you end up with 100 pages of an outline, it'd be just 20-25 pages a day.

;)
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: marketster on September 26, 2005, 04:48:39 PM
Quote
A couple of 2Ls have suggested making the huge outline, but then going through and cutting it up before the final, and bringing only about 20-30 pages into the exam with you.

Do they allow you to bring outlines into the exam? I mean, even if it is an open-book, open-notes exam (the overwhelming majority of exams given where I am are closed-book) professors insist that you do not bring any commercial outlines (which by extension, I would assume, applies to self-made outlines ;)
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: jacy85 on September 26, 2005, 07:22:24 PM
No, most professors stress that you can bring anything in you want, as long as it isn't commerical.  My contracts professor has said we can bring in our books, anything we make ourselves, or anything another student makes/has made, but nothing commerical.  Most of my other profs have echoed this.

In theory, this means you could just retype the commercial outline and change around some wording and the font so it looks like you made it yourself.  I'm thinking the only thing deterring people from doing this (aside from the waste of time it would be) is the honor code.  If someone were to recognize or call you on your outline (god knows why) I'd imaging you could get yourself kicked out of school.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: lwr on September 28, 2005, 12:51:52 PM
No, most professors stress that you can bring anything in you want, as long as it isn't commerical.  My contracts professor has said we can bring in our books, anything we make ourselves, or anything another student makes/has made, but nothing commerical.  Most of my other profs have echoed this.

In theory, this means you could just retype the commercial outline and change around some wording and the font so it looks like you made it yourself.  I'm thinking the only thing deterring people from doing this (aside from the waste of time it would be) is the honor code.  If someone were to recognize or call you on your outline (god knows why) I'd imaging you could get yourself kicked out of school.

Most students create an outline of their own based on certain commercial outlines and their class notes. That outline is usually pretty short, say 7-10 pages long. And it doesn't have to be typed! :)
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: attire on November 27, 2005, 06:38:20 PM
Quote
Do they allow you to bring outlines into the exam?

Yes they do.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: emc on January 12, 2006, 03:15:56 AM
Quote
I must say that this is the best frat boy definition I have ever heard.  Really, it should be published.

I think it IS published, Ezekiel!

LOL shambala! ;)
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: or honor on September 04, 2006, 04:37:09 PM
Some here have argued that we're better off with the depressed people dead, but I don't believe that's true. Depression has not been "bred out" of the gene pool because the creativity and intelligence associated with depression sufferers has societal benefits. See the work of Kay Jamison, the second author of Goodwin & Jamison's classic, "Manic-Depressive Illness."
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: einszweidrei on September 14, 2006, 04:16:23 AM
I dunno if you're being sarcastic or not, but your post is quite intriguing, to say the least ...
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: sartorius on October 04, 2006, 05:10:10 PM

There are so many abercrombie frat boys who stay near each-other each and every class ... we've like 5 male/male couples and I don't doubt they're all homosexuals.


As to this "frat boy" type of thing male, fraternities, and the like ...

Fraternities are said to have their origin in the Middle Ages when young men would go off to foreign countries to study in the new universities at Bologna or Paris. Men from the same countries clung together in the notion of brotherhood.

In early America, the founders of collegiate fraternities chose to name their organizations using Greek letters (Phi Beta Kappa being the first, in 1776), drawing upon the high culture of ancient Greece. Fraternities slowly spread across the United States, and what we know as the "social fraternity" has its roots in the mid-to late 19th century. Following tradition, these men chose to name their organizations using Greek letters.

Because Western civilization has chosen to emulate and draw upon the accomplishments of ancient Greece doesn't mean that the cultural standards in their society were comparable to ours. In fact, the Greeks were far more modern in their acceptance of homosexuality. Most of the greatest Greek citizens were active participants in homosexual sex.

Manly love was a common fixture of everyday Greek life. The Greeks practiced what was called pederasty: open sexual relationships between older men and adolescent boys. Both Plato and Xenophon explored the beauty of this love in their "Symposiums."

Distinguished Athenian citizens would stand around the gymnasium, where young boys ran naked, and the men would pick and choose a boy for a lover. This was all very legal, as long as the boy had reached puberty. Solon the lawgiver, himself a pederast, imposed strict laws against children being included in this practice. Boys were only attractive to older men if they had no hair on their face, thighs or buttocks. There were many arguments among the philosophers about which was greater: sex with a woman or sex with an adolescent boy. Achilles Tatius wrote, "Boys' sweat has a finer smell than anything in a woman's makeup box." In mythology we see such relationships between Zeus and Ganymede, Dionysus and Ampelos and Apollo with Hyacinthus and Cyparissus.

(http://www.daghettotymz.com/rkyvz/articles/greeks/greekquote.jpg)

The Spartan soldiers - some of the most heroic and masculine warriors in history - participated actively in homosexual sex. Alexander the Great had a longtime male companion. When the corpses of Theban soldiers were found on the battlefield at Chaeronea, they were found in couples. Each loving pair of men fought bravely to their deaths, back to back.
Title: 16-Old Capitol Hill Page Concerned About E-mail Exchange with Congressman
Post by: marcy on October 04, 2006, 05:17:37 PM
September 28, 2006

Rhonda Schwartz and Maddy Sauer Report:

A 16-year-old male former congressional page concerned about the appropriateness of an e-mail exchange with a congressman alerted Capitol Hill staffers to the communication. Congressman Mark Foley's office says the e-mails were entirely appropriate and that their release is part of a smear campaign by his opponent.

(http://blogs.abcnews.com/photos/uncategorized/mark_foley_nr.jpg)

In the series of e-mails, obtained by ABC News, from Rep. Foley (R-FL) to the former page, Foley asks the young man how old he is, what he wants for his birthday and requests a photo of him. The concerned young man alerted congressional staffers to the e-mails. In one e-mail, the former page writes to a staffer, "Maybe it is just me being paranoid, but seriously. This freaked me out."

Foley's office acknowledges that Foley wrote the e-mails to the young man but says they were completely innocent and that Foley is at most guilty of being "too friendly and too engaging" with young people. The e-mails were sent from Foley's personal AOL account, and the exchange began within weeks after the page finished his program on Capitol Hill. In one, Foley writes, "did you have fun at your conference ... what do you want for your birthday coming up ... what stuff do you like to do." In another Foley writes, "how are you weathering the hurricane ... are you safe ... send me an email pic of you as well ... "

The young man forwarded that e-mail to a congressional staffer saying it was "sick sick sick sick sick." Foley's office says it is their policy to keep pictures of former interns and anyone who may ask for a recommendation on file so they can remember them. The Congressional page program was started in the 1800s. In its current form, juniors from high school work on Capitol Hill after school or over the summer. The young man in question did not work or intern for Foley's office.

Elizabeth Nicolson, Foley's Chief of Staff, said they believe the e-mail exchange began when the page asked Foley for a recommendation and that the subsequent exchange was totally innocent. She said Foley's office believes the e-mails were released by the opposition as part of an "ugly smear campaign."

Title: I'M SICK AND TIRED OF THESE HYPOCRITE PEDERASTIC REPUBLICANS!
Post by: marcy on October 04, 2006, 05:25:15 PM
ORLANDO, Fla. - Disgraced former Rep. Mark Foley sought treatment for alcoholism and "other behavioral problems" as Republicans on Monday picked a new candidate to salvage the seat that Foley abandoned after exchanging lurid online messages with teenage boys. State party leaders chose state Rep. Joe Negron to replace Foley in next month's election. Negron will receive votes cast for Foley, although Foley's name will remain on the ballot in the West Palm Beach district, which is largely Republican.

"My job beginning immediately is to get word out to all these absentee voters and to everyone else in this race that you are not voting for Mark Foley, you are voting for the Republican nominee, and I'm not Mark Foley," Negron said. "I think it's something that can be done." Foley resigned Friday after reports surfaced that he sent sexually explicit e-mails and instant messages to male teenage pages. He quickly went into seclusion and released a statement that he was seeking treatment.

"Painfully, the events that led to my resignation have crystalized recognition of my long-standing significant alcohol and emotional difficulties," he said. "I strongly believe that I am an alcoholic and have accepted the need for immediate treatment for alcoholism and other behavioral problems." He added: "I deeply regret and accept full responsibility for the harm I have caused." Foley's attorney, David Roth, acknowledged Monday that his client checked into a treatment center over the weekend, but would not identify the facility.

The FBI is investigating Foley's e-mails, as is the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. Foley, who is 52 and single, could be found to have violated a law that he helped write as co-chairman of the Congressional Missing and Exploited Children's Caucus. House Speaker Dennis Hastert said Monday that GOP leaders did not see Foley's Internet exchanges and that he would have demanded Foley's expulsion if he had known about them. "As a parent and speaker of the House, I am disgusted," Hastert, R-Ill., told reporters in Washington.

The scandal suddenly put Foley's seat up for grabs as Democrats seek a net gain of 15 Republican seats to retake power in the House. Foley, who had represented the district for 12 years, was regarded as a shoo-in for re-election before his resignation. His name was to remain on the Nov. 7 ballot because the deadline had passed for changing ballots. At least one prominent Florida Republican expressed pessimism about holding onto the seat. "It's a death sentence ... mission impossible," said former state Republican Party Chairman Tom Slade. "The only way you win is they (voters) have got to vote for Mark Foley. That doesn't appear to me to be very attractive."

But state party spokesman Jeff Sadosky said the seat is too important to surrender. "It's not going to be about yesterday's news no matter how tragic and horrifying," he said. Negron, standing beside a 10th grade son and 8th grade daughter, became choked up when talking about what Foley did. "I've had pages work in my office for years, I've seen pages go to Washington, I've seen the incredible opportunity that is," Negron said, his voice trailing off. He then put his hand over his face and struggled to continue talking. "It was very disturbing because I work with these young people."

The Democratic nominee is Tim Mahoney, a former Republican and financial adviser. He said Monday that his campaign would largely remain unchanged. "When people meet me and people know me, whether they're Democrats or Republicans, they get on board," he said. "They know that when I'm in Washington D.C., I'll be no nonsense and it's all going to be about results." Negron, an attorney who turns 45 next week, joined in the call to investigate who knew about the e-mails and when. Democrats have suggested House leaders tried to cover them up for political reasons. "We ought to investigate if people knew about inappropriate, criminal e-mails and didn't take appropriate action," he said. "If that happened, they need to be punished."

___

Associated Press writers Brent Kallestad in Tallahassee and Brian Skoloff in West Palm Beach contributed to this report.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061002/ap_on_go_co/congressman_e_mails
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: marcy on October 04, 2006, 05:28:27 PM
(http://www.voanews.com/english/images/ap_Hastert_talks_to_reporters_eng_195_2oct06.jpg)
House Speaker Dennis Hastert speaks to reporters with Rep. John Shimkus, right, regarding the resignation of Rep. Mark Foley, October 2, 2006

House Speaker Dennis Hastert says House Republican leaders did not know about the lurid emails sent by Congressman Foley to teenage male interns working at the Capitol until they surfaced in news reports on Friday. "Congressman Foley resigned, and I am glad he did," he said. "If he had not, I would have demanded his expulsion from the House of Representatives.

In a written statement, House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi said Republican leaders admitted knowing about Foley's "abhorrent behavior" at least six months earlier and failed to protect the children in their trust. She says Republican leaders must be investigated by the Ethics Committee and immediately questioned under oath. In an appearance on NBC's "Meet the Press" program Sunday, Democratic Congressman Sherrod Brown of Ohio said any Republican leader who knew about the matter and did not report it should leave office. "I think anyone who knew about this, any leader who knew about this should resign, absolutely," he said.

The scandal comes just 5 weeks before midterm elections that will determine control of Congress. While Democrats try to make political hay out of the scandal, at the White House, spokesman Tony Snow sought to play down its impact on the November 7 elections. "Mark Foley has got to answer for his behavior, right? Now, this does not affect every Republican in the United States of America," said Snow. Foley is under federal investigation. He has entered an alcoholism treatment center, and issued a statement expressing regret and accepting responsibility for the harm he has caused.

Foley, a six-term Congressman who was expected to win reelection against his Democratic challenger, had served as co-chairman of the House Caucus on Missing and Exploited Children, and recently introduced legislation to crack down on internet pornography sites.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: marcy on October 04, 2006, 05:32:24 PM
(http://cdn.news.aol.com/aolnews_photos/08/04/20060929201909990001)
Rep. Mark Foley, R-Fla., quit Congress on Friday after e-mails and sexually explicit instant messages to young male pages surfaced.

(http://cdn.news.aol.com/aolnews_photos/0c/02/20061003102309990014)
David Roth, Foley's attorney, said Tuesday that Foley was molested as a teenager. The lawyer also confirmed Foley's homosexuality.

(http://cdn.news.aol.com/aolnews_photos/0a/06/20061003102309990001)
House Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., has come under fire in the wake of Foley's resignation. He has rejected some calls for him to step down as speaker.

(http://cdn.news.aol.com/aolnews_photos/0b/00/20061003102509990001)
On Monday, Florida Republicans chose Joe Negron, left, to run in Foley's place. Negron has occupied influential posts in the Florida legislature.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: marcy on October 04, 2006, 05:41:57 PM
E-mails

In 2005, Foley sent five emails, some of them suggestive, to a 16-year-old former page sponsored by Rep. Rodney Alexander (R-LA). Among other things, Foley asked for a photo of the page, and expressed admiration for the physique of another young male friend. The page forwarded the emails to a colleague in Alexander's office, saying "this really freaked me out," and repeating the word "sick" 13 times to describe the photo request. He added, "if you can, please tell Rodney [Alexander] about this."

A number of news organizations, including the St. Petersburg Times, the Miami Herald, and Fox News acquired copies of these emails from undisclosed sources in 2005, but decided not to publish a story. The Times editors decided it was probably just a "friendly chit-chat." Nonetheless, they assigned two reporters to investigate in November 2005. The recipient of the email refused to cooperate with the story, and no other pages they interviewed had complaints about correspondence with Foley. The newspaper revisited their investigation "more than once," ultimately choosing not to break the story.

On July 21, 2006, two months before the scandal broke, the Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington (CREW) received copies of the emails. On that day, CREW turned over the emails to the FBI; however, the FBI found insufficient grounds to open a criminal investigation. After the scandal broke, CREW asked the Justice Department's Inspector General to investigate that decision.

On September 24, 2006, a blog named Stop Sex Predators publicly released the emails. The widely-read political blog Wonkette drew readers' attention to the posted emails on September 27. The next day, September 28, Brian Ross of ABC News reported on the same set of e-mails, which he had received in August from a Republican source.

Instant messages

After the initial story on the emails, other pages contacted ABC, providing transcripts of sexually explicit instant messaging conversations that Foley allegedly had with pages. Some said they had not shared the events earlier because Foley was a powerful Congressman. On September 29, in a second story, ABC News reported that it had seen excerpts of these instant messages which made repeated references to sexual organs and acts. On October 3, ABC News reported that it had come into possession of as many as "52 separate instant message exchanges, which former pages say were sent by Foley, using the screen name Maf54, to two different boys under the age of 18."

Message excerpts

Foley's e-mails to the former Congressional page in Louisiana said in part:

Quote
"I am in North Carolina...and it was 100 in New Orleans...well do miss DC...it's raining here but 68 degrees so who can argue...did you have fun at your conference...what do you want for your birthday coming up....what stuff do you like to do,"

and,

Quote
"I just emailed will...hes such a nice guy...acts much older than his age...and hes in really great shape..."

and,

Quote
"how are you weathering the hurricane....are you safe…send me an email pic of you as well...."

The instant messages that ABC obtained after its initial story were much more explicit. According to several former congressional pages, the congressman used the screen name Maf54 on these messages. One exchange included.

Quote
Maf54: do you really do it face down
Teen: ya
Maf54: kneeling
Teen: well i dont use my hand...i use the bed itself
Maf54: where do you unload it
Teen: towel
Maf54: really
Maf54: completely naked?
Teen: well ya
Maf54: very nice
Teen: lol
Maf54: cute butt bouncing in the air

In another exchange, Foley proposed to meet with a former page,

Quote
Maf54: I want to see you
Teen: Like I said not til feb…then we will go to dinner
Maf54: and then what happens
Teen:  we eat...we drink...who knows...hang out...late into the night
Maf54: and
Teen:  I dunno
Maf54: dunno what
Teen:  hmmm I have the feeling that you are fishing here...
im not sure what I would be comfortable with...well see

An exchange that took place in April 2003 apparently reveals Foley engaging in cybersex with a former page as the House voted on an emergency supplemental appropriations bill to fund the Iraq War:

Quote
Maf54: ok..i better go vote..did you know you would have this effect on me
Teen:   lol I guessed
Teen:   ya go vote…I don't want to keep you from doing our job
Maf54: can I have a good kiss goodnight
Teen:   :-*
Teen:   <kiss>

In another exchange, Foley appears to invite the same page to his apartment with a friend to consume alcoholic beverages:

Quote
Maf54: we will be adjourned ny then
Teen:   oh good
Maf54: by
Maf54: then we can have a few drinks
Maf54: lol
Teen:   yes yes ;-)
Maf54: your not old enough to drink
Teen:   shhh…
Maf54: ok
Teen:   that's not what my ID says
Teen:   lol
Maf54: ok
Teen:   I probably shouldn't be telling you that huh
Maf54: we may need to drink at my house so we don't get busted

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Foley_scandal
Title: Rehab: The last refuge of scoundrels
Post by: j o e on October 05, 2006, 01:42:01 AM
Disgraced former Congressman Mark Foley plays the rehab card, as he lunges for sympathy in the wake of his scandalized emails and IMs to up to 5 former Congressional pages.

Quote
Painfully, the events that led to my resignation have crystalized recognition of my longstanding significant alcohol and emotional difficulties.

I strongly believe that I am an alcoholic and have accepted the need for immediate treatment for alcoholism and related behavioral problems.

On Saturday, with the loving support of my family and friends, I made arrangements to enter a renowned in-patient facility to address my disease and related issues.

I deeply regret and accept full responsibility for the harm I have caused.

Over the weekend, I communicated extensively with one of the most respected mental health experts in Palm Beach County, Florida, who has been instrumental in counseling and assisting me.

Attorney David Roth, my good friend of four decades has been requested by me to fully and completely cooperate regarding any inquiries that may arise during my treatment.

Words cannot express my gratitude for the prayers and words of encouragement that have been conveyed to me.



Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: r e on October 05, 2006, 02:02:50 AM

(http://cdn.news.aol.com/aolnews_photos/0a/06/20061003102309990001)


This other female private part must also go!
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: marianne on October 06, 2006, 03:59:40 AM
Among the many depressing aspects of the downfall of Mark Foley -- who has now done the inevitable check-into-rehab thing -- is that a number of young people could have blown the whistle on this deceptive congressman in recent years, but didn't. The Washington Post tracked down a couple of them. Former page Patrick McDonald said that at a 2003 reunion he learned of sexual messages that Foley sent three or four ex-classmates and thought, "if this gets out, it will destroy him."

Matthew Loraditch says he has known for years about the "creepy" messages the Florida Republican sent three of his 2002 classmates. But no one wanted to come forward. "You take down a Congress member, and you can't end up trying to do something later," Loraditch said. Now I don't want to come down on 16-year-old kids (though some are now as old as 21) who must have been intimidated by the whole thing. Indeed, the power imbalance between a big-shot member of Congress and a lowly page is part of what makes this infuriating.

But did they really think that if they told the outside world that the co-chair of the Exploited Children's Caucus was sending them, or their friends, graphic sexual messages, that their future careers would be ruined?

YES. Of course they were scared probably terrified. Especially of a Republican congressmen with a fetish for young males. Most children (and yes I am referring to these once 16 year old boys as children) feel that being molested is THEIR fault.  Now add on to that the power that the republicans have had in the past TWO presidential terms and of course they were terrified. The bitches that should be punished are Mark Foley and the Bush Administration's "Politics of Fear."  All of these neocon, child molesting, murderous Republican power whores need to be taken to task for allowing this to happen. They are the ones that have made our whole country live in fear every day since September 11, 2001. No wonder these kids were scared.

Now, thanks to this WashPost report, we learn that the FBI had some of the e-mails in July and failed to launch an investigation. Did no one take this seriously? By the way, did Denny Hastert think that reading a statement before the cameras and then refusing to take questions was going to promote the appearance of openness? Again, who do you think is running the FBI? The Bush administration. They don't care if teen boys are molested or harassed, otherwise they would have sent by now this monstrous child molester to jail. They care about pushing their agenda, which I don't even know what that is anymore (it seems to be just warmongering and hate). If they think torturing is just SUPER, what would they think of some IM's and emails?  NOTHING, that's what. They fear nothing and they don't care who gets hurt along their way to a NeoNazi America.

Bush and his cronies, or more likely the reverse (I doubt bush is allowed to sneeze without Cheney checking his nose first), are hideous, terrifying creatures that need to be removed form power. This is like the Catholic Church covering up child molestation for all those years only slightly less serious because its not, for now, on such a huge scale. The Catholic Church wields enormous power and those children were overlooked as well by people of FAITH not politicians. Now put this scandal in the hands of politicians and you have a total cluster-@#!*. These politicians don't even answer to God! I propose that both power structures are removed, the Catholic Church and the Bush Administration, they have committed atrocities that are unforgivable and should at the very least be ostracized from the Citizenry of the World.

People should not be afraid of their governtments, governments should be afraid of their people.

The Revolution WILL BE BLOGGED!!
Title: "I would drive a few miles for a hot stud like you,"
Post by: rice on October 06, 2006, 04:16:43 AM
E-mails Show Foley Sought to Rendezvous with Page

In addition to explicit sexual language, former Congressman Mark Foley's Internet messages also include repeated efforts to get the underage recipient to rendezvous with him at night.

"I would drive a few miles for a hot stud like you," Foley said in one message obtained by ABC News.

The FBI says it has opened a "preliminary investigation" of Foley's e-mails. Federal law enforcement officials say attempts by Foley to meet in person could constitute the necessary evidence for a federal charge of "soliciting for sex" with a minor on the Internet.

In another message, Foley, using the screen name Maf54, appears to describe having been together with the teen in San Diego.

Quote

Maf54: I miss you lots since san diego.
Teen:  ya I cant wait til dc
Maf54: :)
Teen:  did you pick a night for dinner
Maf54: not yet ... but likely Friday
Teen:  ok ... ill plan for Friday then
Maf54: that will be fun


The messages also show the teen is, at times, uncomfortable with Foley's aggressive approach.

Quote

Maf54: I want to see you
Teen:   Like I said not til feb…then we will go to dinner
Maf54: and then what happens
Teen:  we eat ... we drink ... who knows ... hang out ... late into the night
Maf54: and
Teen:  I dunno
Maf54: dunno what
Teen:  hmmm I have the feeling that you are fishing here ... im not sure what I would be comfortable with ... well see

Title: IMs Obtained by ABC News Cast Doubt on Claims from Foley's Lawyer
Post by: rice on October 06, 2006, 04:22:36 AM
Mark Foley was sexually molested by a clergyman when Foley was between the ages of 13 and 15 and "wants you to know he is a gay man," his lawyer, David Roth, said late Tuesday. Mr. Roth said the disclosure was part of his client's "recovery." Asked why the former congressman did not reveal this information sooner, Roth said, "Shame, shame." "As is so often the case with victims of abuse, Mark advises that he kept his shame to himself for almost 40 years," Roth said. Foley, who checked into an alcohol rehabilitation facility in Florida, also "reiterates unequivocally that he has never had sexual contact with a minor," Roth said.

But instant messages obtained by ABC News do reveal that Congressman Foley met with an underage page in San Diego, a meeting which they spoke about in an instant message exchange from April, 2003.

Quote
Maf54: I miss you lots since san diego.

Roth said he knew but could not reveal the name and denomination of the clergyman who molested him. According to Foley's biography on his Web site, he was raised as a Roman Catholic in the West Palm Beach area. Foley's lawyer said Foley takes responsibility for sending sexually graphic instant messages over the Internet and was under the influence of alcohol when he sent many of the messages. He denied, however, that Foley ever offered to provide alcohol for teens at his Capitol Hill apartment.

But according to an instant message provided to ABC News by a former page, Foley did make such an offer to a former page in April, 2003.

Quote

Maf54: then we can have a few drinks
Maf54: lol
Teen:  yes yes ;-)
Maf54: your not old enough to drink
Teen:  shhh....
Maf54: ok
Teen:  thats not what my ID says
Teen:  lol
Maf54: ok
Teen:  i probably shouldnt be telling you that huh
Maf54: we may need to drink at my house so we dont get busted


_____________________________ _____________________________ ____________________________
Mark Foley is not a gay man, he is a pedophile. Homosexual men have relationships with men not boys.
Title: Three More Former Pages Accuse Foley of Online Sexual Approaches
Post by: rice on October 06, 2006, 04:25:23 AM
Three more former congressional pages have come forward to reveal what they call "sexual approaches" over the Internet from former Congressman Mark Foley. The pages served in the classes of 1998, 2000 and 2002. They independently approached ABC News after the Foley resignation through the Brian Ross & the Investigative Team's tip line on ABCNews.com. None wanted their names used because of the sensitive nature of the communications.

"I was seventeen years old and just returned to [my home state] when Foley began to e-mail me, asking if I had ever seen my page roommates naked and how big their penises were," said the page in the 2002 class. The former page also said Foley told him that if he happened to be in Washington, D.C., he could stay at Foley's home if he "would engage in oral sex" with Foley.

The page told ABC News he was interviewed this week by FBI agents who had a six-page list of questions about Foley and the exchanges. The second page who talked with ABC News, a graduate of the 2000 page class, says Foley actually visited the old page dorm and offered rides to events in his BMW. "His e-mails developed into sexually explicit conversations, and he asked me for photographs of my erect penis," the former page said. The page said Foley maintained e-mail contact with him even after he started college and arranged a sexual liaison after the page had turned 18.

The third page interviewed by ABC News, a graduate of the 1998 page class, said Foley's instant messages began while he was a senior in high school. "Foley would say he was sitting in his boxers and ask what I was wearing," the page said. "It became more weird, and I stopped responding," the page said.

All three pages described similar instant message and e-mail patterns, with remarkably similar escalations of provocative questions. "He didn't want to talk about politics," the page said. "He wanted to talk about sex or my penis," the page said. The three new verbal accounts are in addition to two sets of sexually explicit instant messages provided to ABC News by former pages.

An online story on the Drudge Report Thursday claimed one set of the sexually explicit instant messages obtained by ABC News was part of a "prank" on the part of the former page, who reportedly says he goaded the congressman into writing the messages. "This was no prank," said one of the three former pages who talked to ABC News today about his experience with the congressman.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: jon on October 06, 2006, 05:02:22 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0lhW-KE9Nw&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMSUC563Zes&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2Pvqe36nRs&eurl=
Title: Re: "I would drive a few miles for a hot stud like you,"
Post by: bazooka on October 06, 2006, 05:44:16 AM
E-mails Show Foley Sought to Rendezvous with Page

In addition to explicit sexual language, former Congressman Mark Foley's Internet messages also include repeated efforts to get the underage recipient to rendezvous with him at night.

"I would drive a few miles for a hot stud like you," Foley said in one message obtained by ABC News.

The FBI says it has opened a "preliminary investigation" of Foley's e-mails. Federal law enforcement officials say attempts by Foley to meet in person could constitute the necessary evidence for a federal charge of "soliciting for sex" with a minor on the Internet.

In another message, Foley, using the screen name Maf54, appears to describe having been together with the teen in San Diego.

Quote

Maf54: I miss you lots since san diego.
Teen:  ya I cant wait til dc
Maf54: :)
Teen:  did you pick a night for dinner
Maf54: not yet ... but likely Friday
Teen:  ok ... ill plan for Friday then
Maf54: that will be fun


The messages also show the teen is, at times, uncomfortable with Foley's aggressive approach.

Quote

Maf54: I want to see you
Teen:   Like I said not til feb…then we will go to dinner
Maf54: and then what happens
Teen:  we eat ... we drink ... who knows ... hang out ... late into the night
Maf54: and
Teen:  I dunno
Maf54: dunno what
Teen:  hmmm I have the feeling that you are fishing here ... im not sure what I would be comfortable with ... well see


Chapter 117, 18 U.S.C. 2422(b)} forbids the use of the United States Postal Service or other interstate or foreign means of communication, such as telephone calls or use of the internet, to persuade or entice a minor (defined as under 18 throughout chapter) to be involved in a criminal sexual act. The act has to be illegal under state or federal law to be charged with a crime under 2422(b), and can even be applied to situations where both parties are within the same state, but uses an instant messenger program whose servers are in another state.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: gorgefolly on October 06, 2006, 05:50:25 AM
Homosexual acts have traditionally been decriminalised with a higher age of consent than for heterosexual acts. Spain is a unique case in that homosexual acts have been legal in Spain since 1822 (with the exception of the offence of "habitual homosexual acts" in the years 1928-32). The 1995 Criminal Code specified an age of consent of 12 under Article 181f for both heterosexual and homosexual sexual acts; and this was raised to 13 a few years later.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: TheSunDevil on October 06, 2006, 08:29:09 AM
but what does that have to do with the price of potatoes?  ::)
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: rayhigh on October 06, 2006, 02:16:24 PM

I'm in my late 30s, so I am a lot older than most of the people at my school.  However, I have to say that I have noticed *very* few of the types that you describe.  The vast majority of my fellow students are very bright young women and men with quite diverse interests along any number of parameters.  I would have a hard time pigeonholing them in any way other than the exceedingly obvious 'they are all law school students.'  Perhaps it is very different than where you go to school...but is it possible you are being too judgmental and defensive, and assuming the worst of people?  To clarify - I don't love everyone I'm in school with, and there are a few that I dislike, 'on the face of it,' as it were.  I am also not a super 'mainstream' person in some respects...but I feel neither are a pretty sizable chunk of the other students at my school.  That said, I don't think it is really fair to judge people by the brands of clothes they wear.  I mean...I don't think I would have any awareness of this, it never even crosses my mind.  I go to school in jeans, tshirt, hiking boots, leather jacket, and I don't feel like that stands out. 

Well, that's my nickel.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: DonaldR on October 07, 2006, 03:48:21 AM
We have all seen grown men and women who either tried to have sex with kids or did, get pulled into the spotlight and sent to jail.

Apparently, the rule of law does not apply to members of Congress.

They lie incessantly, they steal with impunity and now it appears they can have sex with children and that's OK too.

There clearly are two stes of rules in this country. One set for Congress and the President and one set for the rest of us.

This needs to change because, as of right now, we do not live in a democracy, we live in an oligarchy where the rich and powerfull can steal the bread from our mouths and our kids from our homes. How long are we going to put up with this?
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: hoovers on October 07, 2006, 04:14:43 AM

(http://cdn.news.aol.com/aolnews_photos/0a/06/20061003102309990001)


YOU TOO RESIGN!
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: uber on October 08, 2006, 05:12:22 AM
SAVAGE: Now, the kid himself, we don't know who it is. "The kid, the kid. All of a sudden, he's a boy, 16 years old." I read the emails back and forth. As I said to you, there's no excuse for Foley. You know, don't put me in a position of defending him because it's indefensible. He did it to my kid, I guarantee you, when the kid was that age, I would've, I would've been unhappy, let's put it to you that way. OK. But the kid was leading him on. I mean, this kid was leading him on. You know what I'm saying? You read these things. Who is the kid? Maybe he's a Democrat. Maybe it's a -- I don't know who it is. Is there a real kid? I could argue that the age of consent is 16 in Washington, he really didn't have sex, that it's not illegal to actually have sex with a 16 year-old, but it's illegal to write an email suggesting sex, to show you how crazy America is. I mean, there are other observations to be drawn here, like, the boy was playing along with Foley, the deviant. And it's all part of the American obsession with sex, which it is.

Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: dpor on October 08, 2006, 06:43:56 PM

OK. But the kid was leading him on. I mean, this kid was leading him on. You know what I'm saying? You read these things. Who is the kid? Maybe he's a Democrat. Maybe it's a -- I don't know who it is. Is there a real kid?


Indeed uber, it's SICK SICK SICK SICK SICK SICK!!!
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: cuntcap on November 23, 2006, 06:29:46 PM

This needs to change because, as of right now, we do not live in a democracy, we live in an oligarchy where the rich and powerfull can steal the bread from our mouths and our kids from our homes. How long are we going to put up with this?


Only YOU decide how long you're going to put up with it!
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: santropez on October 18, 2007, 08:21:35 PM
I typed in "law school depression" and google pulled up this page.  It has been nice to read that others feel the same frustration that I feel.  I thought that law school would draw a lot of creative kind of eccentric people (unlike what you would find in an engineering program or med school).  So far I feel like I'm the only one that wasn't in a frat and watches channels other than ESPN in my free time.  What the f*ck?  I write music and really enjoy going to concerts when I have time.  I can't find anybody in my section that even knows what "indie" music is.  The last straw for me was when Rilo Kiley came to town, and everyone I asked about going said they had never heard of them (or Jenny Lewis).  I know this sounds snobby, but I love and live for indie music and films.  To be in an environment where I feel like the bearded lady in the freak show circus because I don't find Justin Timberlake to be talented at all (If you want a good laugh read his lyrics and then read the lyrics of an Elliott Smith song afterwards), I'd probably watch FoodTV or The Travel Channel over ESPN, and I'd rather go to a concert than a football or basketball game REALLY SUCKS and is EXTREMELY DEPRESSING.  I keep going back on whether or not I even made the right decision to come to law school.  If this is what my classmates are like, wouldn't that be a pretty good reflection of what my co-workers would be like as well after graduation?  I really want to work with independent music and production companies after I graduate, but at this point it seems like I'm more likely to get stuck working some traditional law firm job (if I can even get one).  This place blows!!--www.myspace.com/bartholomewjns.
Ok, I feel your pain here.  I am a musician and have been in bands since I was 12 years old, so music is extremely important to me.  Naturally, when I meet people one of the first things I want to connect with them on is music, going to see shows, etc.  I quickly realized that most of the people at my LS listen to top 40 garbage and really weird genres (I'm from the south and moved north, didn't expect people to be listening to country here).  This was discouraging to me at first, especially because I had a lot of like minded friends in the city that I had just moved from. 

The upshot?  After a week or two I got over my hang up.  I branched out and stopped pidgeon-holding people based on their outward appearances and music tastes. I really started conversing with them with an open mind.  When you don't know people you try to look for things in common to make some sort of connection so you can engage each other meaningfully.  Sometimes those commonalities aren't obvious and you have to delve a little bit.

Finally, your decision to stay in law school is ultimately yours, but don't base your decision on your classmates being "fratty".  I've met plenty of law students and lawyers that are interesting and diverse people.  I had trouble making friends at LS at first too, but I got over it (I also live with my fiance, which helps because I'm never lonely).    Try to focus on classes and doing well in law school and in your spare time go out, drink, and try to get to know your classmates.  You'll make friends.       
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: njlaw on October 19, 2007, 06:38:39 PM
I typed in "law school depression" and google pulled up this page.  It has been nice to read that others feel the same frustration that I feel.  I thought that law school would draw a lot of creative kind of eccentric people (unlike what you would find in an engineering program or med school).  So far I feel like I'm the only one that wasn't in a frat and watches channels other than ESPN in my free time.  What the f*ck?  I write music and really enjoy going to concerts when I have time.  I can't find anybody in my section that even knows what "indie" music is.  The last straw for me was when Rilo Kiley came to town, and everyone I asked about going said they had never heard of them (or Jenny Lewis).  I know this sounds snobby, but I love and live for indie music and films.  To be in an environment where I feel like the bearded lady in the freak show circus because I don't find Justin Timberlake to be talented at all (If you want a good laugh read his lyrics and then read the lyrics of an Elliott Smith song afterwards), I'd probably watch FoodTV or The Travel Channel over ESPN, and I'd rather go to a concert than a football or basketball game REALLY SUCKS and is EXTREMELY DEPRESSING.  I keep going back on whether or not I even made the right decision to come to law school.  If this is what my classmates are like, wouldn't that be a pretty good reflection of what my co-workers would be like as well after graduation?  I really want to work with independent music and production companies after I graduate, but at this point it seems like I'm more likely to get stuck working some traditional law firm job (if I can even get one).  This place blows!!--www.myspace.com/bartholomewjns.

Well, the thing I keep thinking about while I'm reading this thread and posts like this is how closed-minded the people are who are complaining about closed-mindedness. This poster lives for indie music and films, yet complains that his classmates live for sports. Everyone has their own interests. Some interests are more widely shared than others. Your interests are, by definition, shared by fewer people. Why act so surprised that a relatively small number of law students "live for indie music and films"? If you want to work with an exclusive group of people who share your interests, be a music writer. But to judge your classmates on whether they know obscure bands is asinine. It would be know more fair for your ESPN-interested classmates to judge you on whether you know who the Mets's catcher was in 1972.

I think santropez is right in his post. It may be difficult to find people who share your very specific and exclusive interests. But if you scratch the surface, you may find that some of your classmates who share interests with the majority of society are varied and interesting in their own right. Judge not...
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: Basic_Black on October 21, 2007, 01:36:15 PM
If it's any reassurance, I caught myself last night (about 9:30pm on a Saturday night) about to sit down and read Torts.  I have been working as hard as I reasonably can (no really- not just a reasonableness joke :D), and had done so to the point where I was getting depressed.

One of the 22-year-old youngun's in my class called me to say hello, and she could tell I had cabin fever.

"You need to get out," she said.  "TONIGHT."  For once, she was absolutely right.

Fortunately, there was a Halloween party I could go to.  Nice coincidence, I know.  I didn't have a costume ready, but my previous roommate had left a huge roll of packing paper in my closet.  Twenty minutes later- and with some help from my roommates- I was covered from head to ankle in packing tape, laughing hysterically, and on my way to a party.  Honestly, I didn't recognize more than 6 of the 50 or so people at the party, but that's not the point.

The point, to me, is that I had been working so hard that I had lost my sense of spontaneity.  One of my younger classmates- who is arguably on the other extreme (parties too much) had held a mirror before me (metaphorically speaking) and helped me see what was going on.

For what it's worth, my father called me about five minutes after I finished speaking with my classmate.  "I'm working really hard," I told him.  "Are you taking care of yourself?"  he asked.  "Hmmmm.  I am getting to be a little down."

He thought for a moment about what he was going to say.  (FYI, he practiced law for nearly 30 years, but had to stop doing so after he had a stroke six years ago.)    And then he continued.  (FYI, this is a paraphrase, as best I can remember our conversation":   "I knew how to work hard.  I worked so hard practicing law that I didn't take care of my health." 

"I take care of my health," I replied.  I do.  Seeing him after a stroke made me even more conscientious about my health than I was before then.  I'm careful and moderate, but not abstemious.  His stroke did teach me that.

"OK," he said.  "What about your social life, or your soul for that matter?"

"Lost it, and am losing it," I replied.

"OK.  It sounds to me like you know what you need to do.  Stop working so much tonight, and GO FIND THOSE TWO THINGS."

In the end, I think he was reminding me that a strong work ethic can actually become a WEAKNESS when I stopped taking care of myself.  At only nine weeks into law school, his conversation is one that I know I will definitely remember when I find myself too greedy about what I want to get down, and what I am willing to sacrifice to do so.

 As for trade-offs, I am quickly discovering that I am much more productive (and clearer thinking) when I take time out to do something other than school a couple of times a week.  For many of you, this may sound like a statement of the obvious.  Others of us, however, sometimes need a friend or a family member to remind us that, whatever the values of our future profession (and our current schools), all work and no play is clearly not a recipe for happiness.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: renegade, esq on October 21, 2007, 02:41:33 PM
1) If your class mates are going out and getting drunk every night, you should encourage them to continue that practice.  It will only help you get a better class rank.

2) You shouldn't worry about having a social life.  Find one or two clubs you enjoy, a couple of friends, and that should be more than enough of a social outlet.  You should be studying almost all the time to take advantage of the fact that everyone else in your school is getting wasted.

Callous, but true.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: renegade, esq on October 21, 2007, 02:43:43 PM
Hanging out with the smokers is also a chill idea.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: Basic_Black on October 21, 2007, 02:52:39 PM
Hanging out with the smokers is also a chill idea.

I do.  The smokers at my school are, for the most part, some of the most chill and deliciously no BS people I know. 

As for encouraging classmates to drink and party too much, many of them seem to need no encouragement.  Even so, on the Machiavellian spectrum, I try to err on the side of being liked, not feared.   Just because I work hard and want to do well (and retain the advantages I can) doesn't mean that I need to make any enemies unnecessarily.

There are definitely some 1Ls who bug me (or, really, most of our class) but I have a feeling that they'll be quieter once grades come out...
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: MiamiLaw on October 21, 2007, 03:23:22 PM
I'm having a fun time in law school, and the people are amazing here, it's just like college for me. But then again, I love drinking, I love loud music, and I love parties, so that probably makes it a little easier.  :D   However I certainly do not drink and "party" all the time because I have my priorities.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: Mr. Roe on October 21, 2007, 08:04:13 PM
I'm having a fun time in law school, and the people are amazing here, it's just like college for me. But then again, I love drinking, I love loud music, and I love parties, so that probably makes it a little easier.  :D   However I certainly do not drink and "party" all the time because I have my priorities.

You are honestly the most annoying poster on here.  You've been in law school for two months, and you act like you know it all, as if law school is "fun" and "exciting."  Just wait until you realize that the law profession is extremely dull, boring, and frowned upon by 99% of society. 
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: cesco on October 21, 2007, 08:09:43 PM
I am sure your classmates are all hoping that your love for drinking, loud music, and loud parties works in their favor come finals/grades. 
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: starter on October 21, 2007, 08:53:53 PM
I'm having a fun time in law school, and the people are amazing here, it's just like college for me. But then again, I love drinking, I love loud music, and I love parties, so that probably makes it a little easier.  :D   However I certainly do not drink and "party" all the time because I have my priorities.

You are honestly the most annoying poster on here.  You've been in law school for two months, and you act like you know it all, as if law school is "fun" and "exciting."  Just wait until you realize that the law profession is extremely dull, boring, and frowned upon by 99% of society. 

I will have to second this.  I feel dumber after reading almost every single one of this guy's posts.  But I hope he keeps coming back because some of the stuff that he puts on here is so hilarious that it helps get me through the day.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: MiamiLaw on October 22, 2007, 01:24:54 PM
I'm having a fun time in law school, and the people are amazing here, it's just like college for me. But then again, I love drinking, I love loud music, and I love parties, so that probably makes it a little easier.  :D   However I certainly do not drink and "party" all the time because I have my priorities.

You are honestly the most annoying poster on here.  You've been in law school for two months, and you act like you know it all, as if law school is "fun" and "exciting."  Just wait until you realize that the law profession is extremely dull, boring, and frowned upon by 99% of society. 

Well I apologize if I am annoying others with my posts, but I am only trying to stay highly optimistic at this point, because if I don't I am doomed.  :-[  I don't care if others frown upon my career, I am not going into law to please others.  However I really do hope the practice itself is not boring and dull. I do enjoy the work so far in law school and I am really hoping it will be similar in practice. If it isn't, I am not sure what I would do.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: inremsleep on October 22, 2007, 08:36:54 PM
I typed in "law school depression" and google pulled up this page.  It has been nice to read that others feel the same frustration that I feel.  I thought that law school would draw a lot of creative kind of eccentric people (unlike what you would find in an engineering program or med school).  So far I feel like I'm the only one that wasn't in a frat and watches channels other than ESPN in my free time.  What the f*ck?  I write music and really enjoy going to concerts when I have time.  I can't find anybody in my section that even knows what "indie" music is.  The last straw for me was when Rilo Kiley came to town, and everyone I asked about going said they had never heard of them (or Jenny Lewis).  I know this sounds snobby, but I love and live for indie music and films.  To be in an environment where I feel like the bearded lady in the freak show circus because I don't find Justin Timberlake to be talented at all (If you want a good laugh read his lyrics and then read the lyrics of an Elliott Smith song afterwards), I'd probably watch FoodTV or The Travel Channel over ESPN, and I'd rather go to a concert than a football or basketball game REALLY SUCKS and is EXTREMELY DEPRESSING.  I keep going back on whether or not I even made the right decision to come to law school.  If this is what my classmates are like, wouldn't that be a pretty good reflection of what my co-workers would be like as well after graduation?  I really want to work with independent music and production companies after I graduate, but at this point it seems like I'm more likely to get stuck working some traditional law firm job (if I can even get one).  This place blows!!--www.myspace.com/bartholomewjns.

Dude...chill out.  Here's some good lyrics for you:

REM

"Everybody Hurts"

When the day is long and the night, the night is yours alone,
When you're sure you've had enough of this life, well hang on.
Don't let yourself go, everybody cries and everybody hurts sometimes.

Sometimes everything is wrong. Now it's time to sing along.
When your day is night alone, (hold on, hold on)
If you feel like letting go, (hold on)
When you think you've had too much of this life, well hang on.

Everybody hurts. Take comfort in your friends.
Everybody hurts. Don't throw your hand. Oh, no. Don't throw your hand.
If you feel like you're alone, no, no, no, you are not alone

If you're on your own in this life, the days and nights are long,
When you think you've had too much of this life to hang on.

Well, everybody hurts sometimes,
Everybody cries. And everybody hurts sometimes.
And everybody hurts sometimes. So, hold on, hold on.
Hold on, hold on. Hold on, hold on. Hold on, hold on. (repeat & fade)
(Everybody hurts. You are not alone.)
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: Mr. Roe on October 22, 2007, 08:52:01 PM
I'm having a fun time in law school, and the people are amazing here, it's just like college for me. But then again, I love drinking, I love loud music, and I love parties, so that probably makes it a little easier.  :D   However I certainly do not drink and "party" all the time because I have my priorities.

You are honestly the most annoying poster on here.  You've been in law school for two months, and you act like you know it all, as if law school is "fun" and "exciting."  Just wait until you realize that the law profession is extremely dull, boring, and frowned upon by 99% of society. 

Well I apologize if I am annoying others with my posts, but I am only trying to stay highly optimistic at this point, because if I don't I am doomed.  :-[  I don't care if others frown upon my career, I am not going into law to please others.  However I really do hope the practice itself is not boring and dull. I do enjoy the work so far in law school and I am really hoping it will be similar in practice. If it isn't, I am not sure what I would do.

Practicing law is nothing like law school, so I don't know what you're going to do.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: jhove on October 23, 2007, 05:33:07 AM
its hard to find the balance out here, most of us detest law school, yet others try and lift the spirits of others as it should be done in a social or perhaps not so social more of an introverted creepy online searching for acceptance scenario!
anyhoo the point is if you have a more serious issue that you need addressed simply go about it the right way, and don't invite any tom, male private part or harry to post a reply, i mean what do you expect on a platform where people can freely offer their opinion, perhaps you need a mentor and a platform where not just anybody can delve into your problems or perhaps concerns (if you're sensitive) so my advice is to look at naked guru [nkdguru] dot com and you might get a more sophisticated response to your obviously touching dilemma!


Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: juliemccoy on October 24, 2007, 10:24:26 PM
Tag. MiamiLaw is amusing. :)

In all seriousness... I like law school per se, but I haven't really found my niche. I would not say I am depressed, but I am certainly bored out of my mind. Incredibly, totally and completely bored! I know I need a balance, but I'm not sure where to find it. I'm living in a small town for the first time in my life -- one where everyone around me eats, sleeps and breathes college sports. I could not tell you the first thing about football.

I'm a few years removed from undergrad and not into partying like a rock star every night. I used to, it was fun and now I've moved on.

Most of the other non-trads are in long-term relationships or married, or they're single like me BUT embracing the recent grad-type social life. So as a 1L, I feel pretty isolated. It's a very strange feeling -- I am used to having a lot of friends and I'm a pretty social and outgoing person. You would not know that if you met me for the first time today. I look at the fratties and sorority girls and laugh b/c that's where I come from! It's amazing what a few years of working will do. LOL.

It sucks, but I'm hoping that once first semester ends and I know where I stand relative to grades, I'll feel a little more secure about my study habits to venture out and get involved with some activity. Meanwhile, it's oh-so-boring.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: T. Durden on October 25, 2007, 07:22:49 AM
don't worry julie, it'll only get worse.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: lalwrys on November 01, 2007, 05:47:02 PM
I’m a 1L. I see happy people, but sadly I’m not amongst their multitudes. I recently received “feedback” on a closed memo assignment for LRW; and though I did better than I thought I would (which would be anything north of failing), I maintain a belief that I will fail in my LS endeavor. This web board is therapy for my seemingly lost (DEPRESSED) soul. I thank all posters. Even those who may be a tad overconfident; for my chances of making it seemingly depends on reaching out to my potential colleagues, even if they may be thousands of miles away. Ya’ll give some good advice. Thanks.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: armanix on November 03, 2007, 09:28:53 AM
just look at it as 3 years in prison, just pay your dues and get out! YES YES YES law school is filled with pricks and dorks.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: whit1981 on November 14, 2007, 08:19:09 AM
It never gets better, and if your the type who loves feeling useful and purposeful law school is incredibly boring, depressing, and plain awful. Most lawyers whether they tell you the truth or not and they probably won't for fear of their egos being diminished are plain miserable practicing law. And this is true across the board. Law professors are lawyers who cannot practice and prefer short work weeks with massive benefits and freedom to make up the law. I have taken some exams in law school that are plain awful. I am a 3L and by the way your third year isn't really any better that 1L it's just you get used  to the misery and pain and learn to accept it. It's funny watching 1Ls strive to be perfect and outdo everyone else. When the ego is at max capacity that is when most humans feel at their worst and that is what law school does, it is ego-overdrive which equals absolute depression. People must drink or look at porn or take adderall to deal with this (or some other med/addiction) and for fear of looking bad will never admit to it. Law school really is a bad idea but media and family and others who clearly would never survive law school continue to make those in law school feel far worse by their overreaching non-sensical comments. Though people try to say things like "oh you'll be fine" at exam time any honest down to earth law school student will tell you (if they are truthful and many law students are not) that such comments make them feel worse. Further, many students have told me in private on one on one conversations that law school has been horrible for them and they really wish they would have made a different choice (they will not admit this to other students as most law students cannot empathize with anyone and like to see people fail). Your best bet is to thank God for the ability to accept his will, wave your own flag, take your exams with honor and let the damn chips fall where they may. Or better choice: drop out and do something else. Will people judge you? You bet. This is America where we judge everybody except ourselves and usually we judge people negatively for doing things we do at some level. Just deal with it and move on. Life is not about pleasing people. It's funny how many people in this country claim "not to give a sh!t what others think" yet we see that most people live their lives based on fear of what others think. (well that and for men at least to get a trophy wife and make money so she won't leave for some moron in a band). Good luck and stay true to yourself. 
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: blackpowerman on November 14, 2007, 09:56:56 AM
man,
I didn't get depressed till a couple weeks ago when i realized- well, when it finally hit me- that there is one exam and that's that.  i did horrible on our legal research and writing mid term and ive gotten just above average on all the papers- and now this huge memo is due next week and i can't sleep.

i'm getting really nervous about exams because, well, i feel like im gonna sit down, read the exam and be like WTF is going on.  how am i supposed to memorize everything?

i'm exactly 4 weeks from flying back home for vacay, but until then i am facing (as well as most of you probably) the toughest academic challenge in my life.  and i have to do well...

anyways, im gonna try and get a nap before i continue outlining.  godspeed
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: dividebyzero on November 14, 2007, 12:41:08 PM
 :-[

My main source of depression is the feeling of isolation I have, despite being surrounded by my peers. I've never felt so alone in my life!

I first thought I somehow “hated” my classmates because of some intangible quality they all possessed that I couldn’t explain. But, now I’m beginning to realize that there’s nothing to hate about my classmates. Whether they’re frat boys, jocks, sorority girls, teacher’s pets etc., they’ve all proven to be very warm and considerate human beings, which surprised me considering all the stories about law students and lawyers.

However, there’s still a large degree of social tension because I realize that I have very little in common with most, if not all, of my classmates. It’s mainly due to class background; it’s hard for a southern boy from a poor family who used to live in trailer parks and drink MD 20/20, to relate to people who grew up privileged beyond my wildest dreams, sons and daughters of scientists and senators…I don’t begrudge them their fortunes, I just find it immensely frustrating that I just cannot relate to them. It’s especially frustrating because I consider myself an extrovert and usually am quite sociable, but now I don’t even feel like I speak the same language as my classmates (and I probably don’t, seeing as how often I swear).

It’s also a phenomenon that extends to work, since I work full-time and go to LS part-time. My work colleagues are all young, bright, and confident in a way that growing up with money can make you. We’re the same ages, but I don’t get their jokes, I don’t get their culture at all. So, I spend most of my days feeling like an uneducated boor.

I hope it’ll change, but I doubt it will. Any other “upwardly mobile” law students from austere backgrounds around? Maybe we can crack open a case of cheap beer and shoot little fuzzy animals instead of reviewing each other’s graduate theses.

Sorry, but I'd rather drunkenly pile into a truck and go "muddin'", and occasionally help my friends and family out of legal jams than discuss some piece of modern art or some convoluted and ultimately irrelevant legal theory like a "good" grad student.

Whoa...

Oddly enough, that actually makes me feel *better* to know that my classmates are merely masking their boredom and misery like I am. Although, I won't go so far as to say that the entire school experience is bad since I actually like some of the material.
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: Dr. Balsenschaft on February 12, 2008, 05:26:58 PM
Hilarious. But really, is Elliott Smith indie music? I mean, I listen to Elliott Smith and I buy my jeans at The Gap. I also love golfing.   
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: HateLawSchool on February 14, 2008, 06:58:01 AM
Hilarious. But really, is Elliott Smith indie music? I mean, I listen to Elliott Smith and I buy my jeans at The Gap. I also love golfing.   

Totally, like for sure I know what you mean.  Elliott Smith is as mainstream as they get.  He never had an indie label and has always been mainstream ever since he wrote his first songs that were in Good Will Hunting.  I remember when he did his last stadium tour and sold out every show - it was amazing!  If I remember Tim McGraw and Faith Hill opened for him.  I also heard that he was the one who choreographed Celine Dion's show in Vegas and wrote all the songs as well.  Supposedly after they performed together at the Grammy's they were like totally BFF.

OMG - I buy my jeans at the Gap too and totally love to golf.  Can we be BFF? 
Title: Re: law school depression
Post by: Dr. Balsenschaft on February 15, 2008, 04:12:38 AM
Hilarious. But really, is Elliott Smith indie music? I mean, I listen to Elliott Smith and I buy my jeans at The Gap. I also love golfing.   

Totally, like for sure I know what you mean.  Elliott Smith is as mainstream as they get.  He never had an indie label and has always been mainstream ever since he wrote his first songs that were in Good Will Hunting.  I remember when he did his last stadium tour and sold out every show - it was amazing!  If I remember Tim McGraw and Faith Hill opened for him.  I also heard that he was the one who choreographed Celine Dion's show in Vegas and wrote all the songs as well.  Supposedly after they performed together at the Grammy's they were like totally BFF.

OMG - I buy my jeans at the Gap too and totally love to golf.  Can we be BFF? 

We can totally be BFF:) Did you watch American Idol last night?