Law School Discussion

Deciding Where to Go => Choosing the Right Law School => Topic started by: AllisonAzee on March 13, 2005, 11:14:19 PM

Title: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: AllisonAzee on March 13, 2005, 11:14:19 PM
What schools are underrated by the US News rankings?  I know they are horribly biased and all that, but what schools do you think are better regarded, better prepare you, that sort of thing than their ranking would indicate.  Or have qualities not put into the equation for US News that make the school better than their rank. 

I was thinking about Northeastern, which I think is probably underrated as they tend to downplay LSAT/GPA a little in their admissions which would bring down their ranking.  I really like the school, but have gotten into a couple of much better ranked schools (Loyola and American) and am having a hard time not going for the better ranked schools. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: rick8481 on March 14, 2005, 01:35:11 PM
I believe, based on hours of research and deliberation, that Mercer, Stetson and Florida Coastal School of Law are all under-ranked.  This is, as aforementioned, based on deliberate and diligent research, not the fact that these are the only schools that I have been accepted to thus far.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: dave303 on March 14, 2005, 05:41:30 PM
Many regional schools are underrated, there are teir 2 schools and low ranked schools like Brooklyn/Cardozo/American/Miami that are excellent regional schools with excellent job prospects. If you want to work in Miami you are far better off going to UMiami (77) than Uconn (43).
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Boolsae on March 14, 2005, 05:44:09 PM
Tulane.
Title: UC Hastings and American
Post by: jessesamuel on March 14, 2005, 11:33:12 PM
Yes, I applied to many of the schools I'm going to mention. That's because they're great deals!

I think UC Hastings and American are much better schools than their ranking indicates. At both there seems to be an emphasis on giving a leg up to the kinds of applicant that are historically marginalized by society. I think that is a major drain on their LSAT/GPA averages. They could be more highly ranked if they wanted to.

Other schools that are better-regarded than their rank would indicate: Wisconsin, Tulane, UC Davis, Emory, Vanderbilt, Notre Dame, Boston College, Illinois, U Washington.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Doubledown Trent on March 15, 2005, 09:33:59 AM
Hmmm, I'm not so sure about Emory, Vandy, and Notre Dame.  They're all ranked really high already - deservedly so.  Still, I'm not sure who they would knock off to move any higher.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: be10dwn on March 15, 2005, 09:37:22 AM
I may be biased but I'll say Loyola New Orleans
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: peanutty on March 15, 2005, 01:36:24 PM
What about Lewis and Clark?  I have a hard time figuring out why they aren't ranked better considering their proximity to a major metropolis, awesome faculty and student body, great facilities, beautiful campus, and pretty high standards.  This is one that maybe needs to move up a little bit in the rankings in my opinion. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: prospect on March 15, 2005, 02:00:27 PM
Errr, what major metropolis is Lewis & Clark near?  Seattle?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: peanutty on March 15, 2005, 02:08:17 PM
It's about a five minute drive to downtown Portland. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: prospect on March 15, 2005, 02:11:12 PM
Portland is NOT a major metropolis. Small to midsized city, at most. You can drive clear across town in 20 minutes.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Abevigoda on March 15, 2005, 02:12:31 PM
Prospect, we all can't be New York.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: dave303 on March 15, 2005, 02:19:10 PM
NYC is more of a megalopolis. Once portland builds up some of those funny looking buildings that hold tons of people they will definetly grow.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: peanutty on March 15, 2005, 02:20:33 PM
well, actually according to definition, portland, OR is most certainly a metropolis. (no specific population number has to be met to confer the honor of "metropolis", it simply has to be the center of activity for a larger region.) A small sized city is no larger than 200,000 at the very most, and portland is more than twice that size.  And after living and owning a car in Portland, I know for a fact you can't make it across town in 20 minutes - although that would have been nice. Semantics maybe, but i thought you might like to know.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: prospect on March 15, 2005, 02:22:42 PM
I lived and owned a car in Portland for five years.  You certainly can drive across town - say from Lewis & Clark to the Columbia River - in 20 minutes.

In terms of the definition of metropolis, I'll concede it.  However, in terms of whether proximity to the 'metropolis' of Portland should boost L&C's ranking, you'd first have to give greater creedence to every school in every city larger than Portland, which, I think, would negate any positive associated with such a reconsideration.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: peanutty on March 15, 2005, 02:25:29 PM
that may be, but the columbia river is not clear across from Lewis and Clark (maybe halfway across town)...you cannot drive from one end of town to the opposite end of the town in 20 minutes, which is the argument you originally made.  hell you can't even do that in madison, WI. 

anyway - this is not the matter at hand, i simply suggested that they are underrated, and one of the criteria that i listed is their proximity to a metropolis - and that is correct.  fair?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: peanutty on March 15, 2005, 02:27:14 PM
I see what you are saying about creedence given to every larger city than portland, but i think that those schools have been given consideration and that perhaps lewis and clark has not.  that is what this posting is about right? schools that have not been considered fully based on all criteria? 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: prospect on March 15, 2005, 02:34:18 PM
Lewis & Clark is south of Portland, & the Columbia is north of it, no?

Yes, if all other schools have been properly credited for their location, & L&C has not, then certainly, L&C is underrated b/c of their location.  I find it difficult to believe, however, that L&C's location is not adequately factored into its ranking as compared to other schools and their locations.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: peanutty on March 15, 2005, 02:36:56 PM
Technically, L & C is not south of portland, it is IN portland.  not even technically....it just is. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: prospect on March 15, 2005, 02:45:15 PM
Touche!  But you can drive from Milwaukee to the Columbia in 20 mins...
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: peanutty on March 15, 2005, 02:49:40 PM
yeah but milwaukee is like 5 steps from sellwood - which is in portland. dude - where are you going to law school?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: prospect on March 15, 2005, 03:04:20 PM
Is Milwaukee inside or outside Portland?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: hey not you hey on March 15, 2005, 03:07:04 PM
can we change this to the 'official drive-time thread?'  I'll go...

I can drive from my house to the nearest Open Pantry in about 1 minute.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Painting101 on March 15, 2005, 03:08:41 PM
The nearest 7-11 is 1 hour 10 minutes from my apt.  about 75 miles....  mmmmm slurpees...
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: prospect on March 15, 2005, 03:15:21 PM
I don't have a car.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: hey not you hey on March 15, 2005, 03:30:43 PM
I can drive from my house to Miller's Liqour, the closest liquor store in approximately 3 minutes.  2 minutes if it's anywhere near 9 o'clock.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Painting101 on March 15, 2005, 03:55:51 PM
We hijacked this thread in just under 8 minutes, which is about the time it takes me to drive from my apt to Juliet's (the nearest adult entertainment).
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: jakew on March 15, 2005, 08:36:30 PM
We hijacked this thread in just under 8 minutes, which is about the time it takes me to drive from my apt to Juliet's (the nearest adult entertainment).

Well, if we are going to bring up adult entertainment I must point out that Portland has, per capita, the most strip clubs in the country. That should boost L&C, no?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: hey not you hey on March 15, 2005, 08:43:44 PM
depends....just topless or full nudity?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Snuvy on March 15, 2005, 11:28:46 PM

bc bc bc bc bc please bc
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: m123 on March 20, 2005, 03:37:15 PM
The University of Oklahoma is underrated.

Outstanding Court room. The 10th Cir. held court en banc for an entire week. The Oklahoma Civil Court of Appeals did the same.

Library is outstanding. I have visited almost every school in the top 15 or so and Oklahoma's is definitely in the top three or four. Harvard is obviously number one because of its size and history.

Faculty is easily accessible.

A very good regional image. The problem is that most Oklahoma student want to stay in the region so the New York and Chicago firms just don't have a lot of exposure to Oklahoma. This seems to be changing.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: F05HOPEFUL on March 20, 2005, 03:47:49 PM
To the OP.  Georgia State if you want to work in Atlanta is underrated.  Actually, regional preferences are completely left out of the formula, which I think completely undermines the ranking system.  It is my belief, through research, that the USNWR rankings are pretty much useless outside of the T20.

Also, if you wanted to practice environmental, Vermont is THE BEST, but they are ranked very low.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Infinite0 on March 20, 2005, 05:55:24 PM

I was thinking about Northeastern, which I think is probably underrated as they tend to downplay LSAT/GPA a little in their admissions which would bring down their ranking.  I really like the school, but have gotten into a couple of much better ranked schools (Loyola and American) and am having a hard time not going for the better ranked schools. 
I'm looking at the rankings published by USNews for 2004, certain things, like GPA, LSAT score, acceptance rate, bar passage (NU is a little better), starting salaries, etc. look pretty similar.  I picked NU because I'm already in Boston, and they came right out and offered me money.  I figure with the co-op program I don't commit to studying in just one city during law school (applied to schools in Boston, DC, and NYC).

I went to an open house at NU, and (an obviously biased) student explained how she was at the UN High Commission for Refugees for her co-op, along with an American student.  The American student, she said, didn't get as much out of the experience as she, because as part of the co-op program, this person got to be there full time, whereas the American student was there at odd hours and days.  The overseers didn't  give her as much to do because they didn't have her devoted full time, and also didn't have as much time to work with her and be confident in her abilities. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: SuicideNixon on March 21, 2005, 12:51:54 PM
NYC is more of a megalopolis. Once portland builds up some of those funny looking buildings that hold tons of people they will definetly grow.

you mean arcologies?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Abevigoda on March 21, 2005, 01:34:58 PM
Is that a SimCity reference?  Classic.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: stateofbeasley on March 21, 2005, 08:12:52 PM
 :D

Your avatar looks like a cat begging for a treat... I just keep seeing it say "bc bc ...please.."

BC is a good school. I'm sure it'll hold its place at the very least.


bc bc bc bc bc please bc
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Julie Fern on March 27, 2005, 04:18:57 AM
whotsamotta u.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Eegahh on March 29, 2005, 01:12:12 AM
See, now you're just pulling stuff out of your hat  ;)
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: LaneSwerver on March 29, 2005, 06:44:06 AM
I'm going to have to go with Appalachian School of Law. They just hired a new dean, and it looks like he's really going to take the school to the next level...

(http://rhetorica.net/weblogpix/banjo.jpg)

The new Banjo Law program is sure to be a hit.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: dustoffdax on March 29, 2005, 07:27:06 AM
I've lived in the south-east for about the past 15 years, Samford gets as much respect as Mercer does. Samford also has a huge alum base. For the life of me I can't figure out why Mercer made it to T2 and Samford hasn't. I went to Mercer undergrad and interned at the law school. It was ok, but from what I've seen Samford is in a better location and has a much nicer campus. Samford LSAT and GPA medians are a tad lower than Mercer's. That's the only thing I can think of that is keeping it out of T2.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: sclclimber on April 27, 2005, 10:42:55 AM
University of Colorado.  Top 10 nationally in clerkship placements, always a good thing.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: philibusters on April 27, 2005, 03:17:21 PM
Hastings
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Ron Hiatt on April 27, 2005, 03:26:31 PM
Basically, pull up my LSN profile. Every school I was accepted to is under rated. Every school that dinged me manipulates the USNWR ranking system.   :P ;) ;D
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: stateofbeasley on April 28, 2005, 03:36:57 PM
Temple is consistently underrated. Anyone who has visited the school in the past two years and taken time to actually look at the place would realize that it is far better than its #65 ranking implies.

It's the "reptutation" scores that do us in every single year. A 2.6 peer review score? Ridiculous. In objective factors we're as good as most of the 39-50 tier 1 schools, and in some cases, better.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: QuickOats on April 29, 2005, 09:09:27 AM
UNC
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Abevigoda on April 29, 2005, 10:05:19 AM
I think Catholic is just because I'm going there.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: maximumtennis82 on April 29, 2005, 10:11:59 AM
Wayne State
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Paikea on April 29, 2005, 09:48:05 PM
Why Gonzaga of course!

In all seriousness, I have had several attorneys in Seattle state that Gonzaga, not UW or Seattle U, is the school to go to in WA in terms of law education.  They say that it is pretty common knowledge among many lawyers in the state that it produces the best all-around attorneys, while UW and SU produce highly skilled lawyers in certain specialized areas.

I guess I will soon find out...hope they are right!

Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: tacojohn on May 05, 2005, 12:38:21 PM
I heard IU is underrated, and the only reason I say that is because someone said it on here, not because I went there for undergrad and am barely able to leave, hence my intense desire to go to school there.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: siehead on May 05, 2005, 03:02:14 PM
USC, GW, and Loyola.

I will tell you the other most underrated schools in the country when my complex data for analyzing such phenomena is complete.

Note: Complex data = schools that let me in off their waitlist.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: LaneSwerver on May 05, 2005, 09:15:55 PM
Ave Maria...once again, US News chose not to rate them.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: St. Shaun on May 17, 2005, 07:04:06 PM
Berkley.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: hammer101 on May 19, 2005, 08:58:28 AM
Berkley.

Seems people either love it or hate it. I agree that it's a little underrated though.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: ElizaB on May 19, 2005, 11:39:39 AM
i might say baylor as they have a higher bar pass rate than Texas powerhouse UT and an xo poster who transferred from Baylor to UT  stated that employers inquired as to his transfer, saying " we consider baylor to be the best school in TX". I don't think anyone would doubt it from a practical standpoint, but certainly UT gets sweet ranking consideration, most likely due to faculty. Any thoughts?

They had a higher bar passage rate for one or two bar exams.  Generally, their bar exam passage rate is about the same.  Also, look at the differences in starting salaries between the two schools and the percentage of those employed at graduation. 

I'm not saying that Baylor isn't a good school (I personally think it is a great school!), but I would be willing to bet that the employer who made that statement was probably a Baylor grad...I don't think that the majority of Texas employers would agree. Every person, advisor, professor and lawyer I have ever talked to on the subject pretty much rates it like this: UT, then SMU, and then Baylor. 

As far as schools that are underrated - Tulane was grossly underrated last year and I think is still a little underrated;  I also think that that Tech is underrated.  I think it at least belongs in the lower second tier.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: siehead on May 21, 2005, 09:22:26 AM
Berkley.

Berkeley
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: St. Shaun on May 21, 2005, 11:43:11 AM
Berkley.

Berkeley

Not so much this year.  They don't play the number game so heavily (they rely on GPA more then LSAT) and there one of the few stellar west coast law schools.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Lgirl on May 21, 2005, 11:48:36 AM
Definitely Berkeley! glad someone said it first!
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: BraveheartDC on May 26, 2005, 07:41:04 PM
clearly William & Mary is better than its current 27th ranking.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Tis Another Day on May 27, 2005, 08:18:54 AM
Loyola NO.


Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: kdeevers on May 27, 2005, 08:48:26 AM
Hofstra baby yeah!
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: hammer101 on May 27, 2005, 08:56:42 AM
clearly William & Mary is better than its current 27th ranking.

Of course -- you're attending!
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: MTL on May 27, 2005, 09:06:55 AM
Why Gonzaga of course!

In all seriousness, I have had several attorneys in Seattle state that Gonzaga, not UW or Seattle U, is the school to go to in WA in terms of law education.  They say that it is pretty common knowledge among many lawyers in the state that it produces the best all-around attorneys, while UW and SU produce highly skilled lawyers in certain specialized areas.

I guess I will soon find out...hope they are right!



Sorry, but this is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. I would agree with UW being overrated, and SU being underrated, but Gonzaga is exactly where it belongs. Most of the attorneys I know have stated that their firms flat out do not hire Gonzaga grads straight out of LS, indicating to me that the reputation is poor indeed. Don't get me wrong, you can succeed from Gonzaga, but it is an uphill climb relative to the other schools, largely because the pecking order is so firmly established.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Paikea on June 27, 2005, 09:14:02 PM
Why Gonzaga of course!

In all seriousness, I have had several attorneys in Seattle state that Gonzaga, not UW or Seattle U, is the school to go to in WA in terms of law education.  They say that it is pretty common knowledge among many lawyers in the state that it produces the best all-around attorneys, while UW and SU produce highly skilled lawyers in certain specialized areas.

I guess I will soon find out...hope they are right!



Sorry, but this is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. I would agree with UW being overrated, and SU being underrated, but Gonzaga is exactly where it belongs. Most of the attorneys I know have stated that their firms flat out do not hire Gonzaga grads straight out of LS, indicating to me that the reputation is poor indeed. Don't get me wrong, you can succeed from Gonzaga, but it is an uphill climb relative to the other schools, largely because the pecking order is so firmly established.


I had two informational interviews with lawyers from Preston Gates Ellis and Perkins Coie, all of whom stated this to me.  Both of these firms, two of the top in WA, said they have no problem hiring from Gonzaga as long as they have been on Law Review and/or have ample moot court experience (they require this of all new hires.) 

I also spoke with two attorneys who are public defenders in King County and stated that GU has a very strong rep in the public sector, moreso than SU.

By chance on a flight from San Fransisco, I sat next to an attorney for Betts Patterson Mines and, among other things, asked her about UW, SU and GU.  Her response was that if GU was in the greater Seattle area, it would be ranked as high or higher than SU - that it suffers because most people would rather live in Seattle for 3 years than Eastern WA.

Of course, they all had nothing but great things to say about UW and SU.  But each of their overall opinions were that GU was greatly underrated, and that it offered the better "all-around" education.

Like it or not, believe it or not, these were their words, not mine.  :-* 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: BigSplitDC on August 22, 2005, 05:06:24 PM
Underrated:
Texas, BC, Hastings, Michigan, BYU

Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: nubova on August 23, 2005, 02:20:05 PM
BC, ND, Hastings.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: shae on November 15, 2005, 12:30:05 PM
Cooley.  They shoud by T14 for sure.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: ChlorasepticRelief on November 15, 2005, 01:09:43 PM
BC for sure.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Steve Butabi on November 30, 2005, 01:03:43 PM
there are a few schools that are CRIMINALLY underrated by usnwr, those are unc, tulane, and wisconsin

Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Steve Butabi on November 30, 2005, 02:32:53 PM
yeah. suprisingly, Tulane undergrad degrees command a lot more respect than you would think. First of all, the school has excellent faculty, law and undergrad. When people hear that my buddy went to tulane, there are oohs and ahhs, not exactly what you would expect from a school that isn't extremely selective. A Tulane law degree also travels. Most students practice in nyc right out of school. You can't say that about many schools outside the T30 that aren't located in NY. Their maritime and intl law programs are also some of the best in the nation.

Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Thikighoros on November 30, 2005, 03:16:44 PM
Cooley.  They shoud by T14 for sure.

Underrated, maybe. T14, maybe not.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: LawyersGunnersnMoney on November 30, 2005, 04:57:44 PM
there are a few schools that are CRIMINALLY underrated by usnwr, those are unc, tulane, and wisconsin



do you think this will continue to hold true for Tulane?  people are still questioning whether nola will ever make it back
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Steve Butabi on November 30, 2005, 07:33:38 PM
there are a few schools that are CRIMINALLY underrated by usnwr, those are unc, tulane, and wisconsin



do you think this will continue to hold true for Tulane?  people are still questioning whether nola will ever make it back


people are NOT questioning whether tulane will make it back. Tulane is there, it's opening, it's ready. As for new orleans, the areas that most likely won't 'make it back' are areas that you would never ever ever ever want to set foot in as a student, unless you want to get beat up by some cops or have your shoes stolen or something.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Steve Butabi on November 30, 2005, 07:34:36 PM
yeah, im not worried. it is the oldest city in the united states, I think it can deal with some flooding and broken windows in the long run.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: maka nani on November 30, 2005, 07:39:19 PM
many cities are older.  jsia
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: shae on November 30, 2005, 09:35:38 PM
I'm tempted to say Baylor.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: benheely on November 30, 2005, 09:39:15 PM
i believe the oldest city is st. augustine. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Goodfella Aaron on November 30, 2005, 09:40:13 PM
many cities are older.  jsia

NOLA's got to be the oldest city outside the Northeast.

Actually, Detroit, Savannah and Santa Fe are all older. Don't know if you can go to law school in Savannah or Santa Fe though.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Steve Butabi on December 01, 2005, 07:10:45 AM
ok, that may be true, but new orleans is about 300 years old. I dont think a hurricane is going to obliterate it.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: maka nani on December 01, 2005, 07:25:49 AM


many cities are older.  jsia

NOLA's got to be the oldest city outside the Northeast.

Actually, Detroit, Savannah and Santa Fe are all older. Don't know if you can go to law school in Savannah or Santa Fe though.

well - he didn't say oldest city with a LS...I don't think.

anyway it is really St. Augestine...oldest continually settled city...but...really...it is not a city as i think of a city.

Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: LawyersGunnersnMoney on December 01, 2005, 01:11:36 PM
NOLA will be fine. The Ninth Ward is gone, but it needed a good rinsing, anyhow. Utilities are coming back. The part of town where Tulane is, Uptown, is on higher ground and didn't suffer too much from the flooding. Residents are returning to the suburban areas. New Orlean is still an important location from a commerce standpoint; hurricanes are the cost of living there.

Tulane has kept most of their faculty, and they're not allowing their students to transfer. The school's going to be fine, as is the city.

perhaps, but surely their applicants will be much different.  this could easily drop and the school's rep could fall. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Steve Butabi on December 02, 2005, 09:22:40 AM
its true that their applicants might be less in number, but I dont think so in qualifications, since we all made our decisions about where to apply based on last years data, which has not been changed by the hurricane. Since tulane will most likely be slashing their acceptances by at least 1/4 or maybe even 1/3 (the dean was quoted at saying that Tulane UG will accept HALF as many applicants this year), I think that their ranking will be unchanged in terms of selectivity, maybe even boosted.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: LawyersGunnersnMoney on December 02, 2005, 11:14:27 AM
its true that their applicants might be less in number, but I dont think so in qualifications, since we all made our decisions about where to apply based on last years data, which has not been changed by the hurricane. Since tulane will most likely be slashing their acceptances by at least 1/4 or maybe even 1/3 (the dean was quoted at saying that Tulane UG will accept HALF as many applicants this year), I think that their ranking will be unchanged in terms of selectivity, maybe even boosted.

it will be interesting.  peoples decisions to apply to a place are based on more than last years data.  personally im not applying bc i dont have any desire to move to nola in 9 months specifically due to the hurricane.  it has nothing to do with the ranking or professors or anything else
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: shae on December 02, 2005, 12:50:55 PM
Baylor doesn't autoding everyone below 163/3.5, I know that for a fact (especially in the Spring and Summer application cycles).

I also know that may lawyers I have talked to view Baylor as the clear #2 to UT, with SMU rounding out the top 3.  Also, Baylor places well in Houston and DFW- which are the 2 largest legal markets in Texas, so I don't see a problem with that.  I am not saying that they should be T14 or anything like that, but I think their ranking is a bit decieving considering their grads place very well in the 2 largest legal markets in Texas.

Clearly though, UT is the school to go to if you want to practice in Texas- but Baylor isn't bad at all.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: spud1987 on December 04, 2005, 12:14:41 AM
I dunno if it's been mentioned but I think San Diego is underrated.  It seems to me that everything I've read has been great about it.  I think it could be a tier 1.  Just my humble opinion though.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: shae on December 07, 2005, 08:25:06 PM
I think San Diego places well b/c it is the best school in San Diego and has no real competition from schools in its own city (LA- UCLA, USC, Pepperdine, Loyola, etc) (Northern Cal- Hastings, Davis).  The only schools they really compete with are Stanford and Boalt, and they really compete for jobs nationally instead of in San Diego.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: LawyersGunnersnMoney on December 08, 2005, 05:44:34 PM
bad news for Tulane: http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1386635
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: AH on December 08, 2005, 08:17:03 PM
I don't think it's been said, but from reading up on it thus far it seems like Franklin Pierce is pretty underrated.  Granted, it's tough to place in Boston with all the competition from schools in that area, but their IP program is stellar (2006 USNews #6, higher ranked than Columbia, NYU, BU, Harvard, etc.).  Sadly, it's another victim of poor rep.

Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: SuicideNixon on December 09, 2005, 08:42:03 PM
I don't think it's been said, but from reading up on it thus far it seems like Franklin Pierce is pretty underrated.  Granted, it's tough to place in Boston with all the competition from schools in that area, but their IP program is stellar (2006 USNews #6, higher ranked than Columbia, NYU, BU, Harvard, etc.).  Sadly, it's another victim of poor rep.



although the specialty ranking is flawed and I wouldn't trust it in general, I think franklin pierce places remarkably well in IP.

IP market is slowing now though
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: RocketBot on December 14, 2005, 01:38:19 PM
I dunno if it's been mentioned but I think San Diego is underrated.  It seems to me that everything I've read has been great about it.  I think it could be a tier 1.  Just my humble opinion though.

San Diego is hugely underrated for sure.  Leiter pointed this out in his studies.  Many regard it as the fifth best law school in CA (after Stanford, Berkeley, UCLA, and USC).  I think over the years it will be ranked as such.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: zacharyl20 on December 25, 2005, 07:33:59 AM
Howard University is definately an underrated school. It has a caring faculty and has an almost equivalent number of law firms that come to hire students as Harvard, Yale, Columbia, etc. I think it is an underrated school simply because it is an mostly African American school.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: wowand135 on December 25, 2005, 12:54:43 PM
 There seems to be a lot of people saying BC is under rated. Any ideas why? I am considering that school but it would be a huge move from california and I would need a good reason.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: AH on December 26, 2005, 03:12:12 PM
BC is a great school.  Check out the BC v. BU threads.

I like its location.  Even though its not in the heart of Boston (end of the green line to the undergrad then a shuttle to the law school, basically in Newton), the campus is in a beautiful residential neighboorhood.

Also, though not for me because I am certain of my concentration, I like that they don't specifically do concnentrations in order to get a more well-rounded and complete view of the law.  If there is something you want to take that they don't offer, you can take it at ANY Boston ls if you qualify (though the process to go to Harvard is a lot more difficult than some of the other schools, for example, which makes sense).

This is all just what I heard on the tour, if you search BC and check out some of those threads they get a lot more detailed b/c a lot of people from Boston or BC post.  GL!
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: pistolpete23 on January 09, 2006, 03:29:09 AM

Tier II: San Francisco (USF)
-selective admissions, excellent starting salary, first-rate programs
-just doesn't seem to fit among the other Tier II schools

Tier IV: Suffolk
-beautiful facilities, excellent reputation throughout Boston area, powerful alumni
-just doesn't seem to rank among Tier IV schools

on a somewhat related matter, how the @#!* is Whittier and Golden Gate expected to compete with UCLA, Stanford, Boalt, Hastings, Davis, San Diego, and Pepperdine in their BAR passage rates? i don't think that they should be placed on ABA probation for not having adequate "human resources" in terms of their student body.

pistol pete
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: FossilJ on January 09, 2006, 03:39:04 AM
Isn't USF a Tier III?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: pistolpete23 on January 09, 2006, 03:41:47 AM

correction: Tier III

well, it should be a Tier II. if i went to USF, i would find this to be an outrage.

pistol pete
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: pistolpete23 on January 09, 2006, 03:49:17 AM

according to the results of the July 2005 CA Bar, USF had higher passage rates than UC-Davis, Pepperdine, and Pacific (which just happen to have higher USNWR rankings). they were also ranked at the bottom of the rankings in 2004.

that must count for something,

pistol pete
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: FossilJ on January 09, 2006, 03:50:45 AM
I'm actually quite a fan of USF, but the real problem is that it competes with Stanford, Berkeley, Hastings, Davis, and even McGeorge in the area.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: pistolpete23 on January 09, 2006, 06:08:21 AM

nonetheless. i would go there in a heartbeat. i hope that there are some USF adcomms out there watching...

i'm all about promoting unrightfully underranked schools...

pistol pete
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: pipskicks on January 11, 2006, 11:54:07 PM

nonetheless. i would go there in a heartbeat. i hope that there are some USF adcomms out there watching...

i'm all about promoting unrightfully underranked schools...

pistol pete

I have been thinking a lot between my most likely top choice acceptances (although I could get lucky with something else), and they are Southwestern in LA (one that I heard is grossly underrated with their alumni base), and USF, and then Pacific (which is ranked 90th).

The whole time I've been thinking Pacific with it's 2nd tier as opposed to 3rd tier ranking, but I have heard good things about both SW and USF, so it's going to be a tough choice.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Go_Blue26 on January 15, 2006, 10:03:45 PM
I hate these rankings.  I know many of you do as well.  That said, most of us are all very familiar with them.  Some are obsessed.  I've read some historical analysis of the US News Rankings.  I've also read some other studies of law school reputation. 

I'd say that some of the most underrated schools are:

UNC - Formerly ranked in the top 20 in USNWR, but - IMO - continues to focus more on GPA as opposed to LSAT.  Also continues to evaluate applicants with a bit more focus on subjective factors.

Illinois - Faculty is apparently highly regarded.  Again, another school once ranked to 20.

Tulane - Apparently, Tulane is one of the more national schools outside of the top 14.

Wisconsin - Again, another school that was once ranked top 20.

American - A *&^% ton of DC insiders, politicians, etc have gone to American.  I think American - likewise - tends not to play the rankings game, and is genuinely interested in admitting people based on more than primarily LSAT/GPA.  I also think American is seriously dedicated to helping underrepresented minorities and women.  Given that the university was founded by women, and began as a female-only institution, it makes sense.

Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: as436 on January 16, 2006, 03:08:57 PM
berkeley is way underrated by US News.. should be between 5-7
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: shae on January 16, 2006, 03:16:46 PM
berkeley is way underrated by US News.. should be between 5-7

i've heard the exact opposite about berkeley- that it is overrated b/c of the "berkeley" name.  probably isnt any truth to this, but i have heard it several times on this board and from a lawyer or two.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: queencruella on January 16, 2006, 04:27:39 PM

i've heard the exact opposite about berkeley- that it is overrated b/c of the "berkeley" name.  probably isnt any truth to this, but i have heard it several times on this board and from a lawyer or two.

I've heard the exact same thing- that compared to the quality of the rest of Berkeley, Boalt is just not up to par. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Ego on January 16, 2006, 04:48:29 PM
Notre Dame
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Ego on January 16, 2006, 04:53:36 PM
And Cardozo

I almost mentioned them too.


Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Ego on January 16, 2006, 04:54:24 PM
Another underrated school: UCLA & Texas.  It really should be Sweet Sixteen, not T14. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: LawyersGunnersnMoney on January 16, 2006, 05:10:56 PM
Another underrated school: UCLA & Texas.  It really should be Sweet Sixteen, not T14. 

t14 is a little strange, but 'sweet 16' isnt any better.  vandy is as national as ucla
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 140am on January 16, 2006, 05:13:00 PM
Clearly, by admitting yours truly, Villanova is now underrated, as my admittance alone should be good for and upward move of at least 20-30 ranking spots come next year.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Ego on January 16, 2006, 05:13:10 PM
Another underrated school: UCLA & Texas.  It really should be Sweet Sixteen, not T14. 

t14 is a little strange, but 'sweet 16' isnt any better.  vandy is as national as ucla

Yeah.  They're included too.

I think the top 25 is a better term to use.  Of course, you can still distinguish between 1-10, 10-15, 15-20, 20-25 etc.

But it is not so hard and fast like we make it on the internet.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: LawyersGunnersnMoney on January 16, 2006, 05:17:57 PM
Another underrated school: UCLA & Texas.  It really should be Sweet Sixteen, not T14. 

t14 is a little strange, but 'sweet 16' isnt any better.  vandy is as national as ucla

Yeah.  They're included too.

I think the top 25 is a better term to use.  Of course, you can still distinguish between 1-10, 10-15, 15-20, 20-25 etc.

But it is not so hard and fast like we make it on the internet.

i agree, round #s are better and there t14 is a line in the sand.  regionality still comes into play for the lower t14 schools
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Ego on January 16, 2006, 05:20:07 PM
Another underrated school: UCLA & Texas.  It really should be Sweet Sixteen, not T14. 

t14 is a little strange, but 'sweet 16' isnt any better.  vandy is as national as ucla

Yeah.  They're included too.

I think the top 25 is a better term to use.  Of course, you can still distinguish between 1-10, 10-15, 15-20, 20-25 etc.

But it is not so hard and fast like we make it on the internet.

i agree, round #s are better and there t14 is a line in the sand.  regionality still comes into play for the lower t14 schools

It comes into play for all of the T14.  Going to a t14 does not suffice.  You need to do well there to access jobs around the country.  Of course, you can do relatively poorly and get a good job in a major market or a great job in a secondary market with ties to the area.  But you're less likely to make market and you almost definitely won't get your first choice firm.

Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 140am on January 16, 2006, 05:21:16 PM
Another underrated school: UCLA & Texas.  It really should be Sweet Sixteen, not T14. 

t14 is a little strange, but 'sweet 16' isnt any better.  vandy is as national as ucla

Yeah.  They're included too.

I think the top 25 is a better term to use.  Of course, you can still distinguish between 1-10, 10-15, 15-20, 20-25 etc.

But it is not so hard and fast like we make it on the internet.

i agree, round #s are better and there t14 is a line in the sand.  regionality still comes into play for the lower t14 schools

It comes into play for all of the T14.  Going to a t14 does not suffice.  You need to do well there to access jobs around the country.  Of course, you can do relatively poorly and get a good job in a major market or a great job in a secondary market with ties to the area.  But you're less likely to make market and you almost definitely won't get your first choice firm.



So, you're saying doing well at Temple is better for Philadelphia placement than doing poorly at, say, Northwestern or Cornell?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Ego on January 16, 2006, 05:27:49 PM
Another underrated school: UCLA & Texas.  It really should be Sweet Sixteen, not T14. 

t14 is a little strange, but 'sweet 16' isnt any better.  vandy is as national as ucla

Yeah.  They're included too.

I think the top 25 is a better term to use.  Of course, you can still distinguish between 1-10, 10-15, 15-20, 20-25 etc.

But it is not so hard and fast like we make it on the internet.

i agree, round #s are better and there t14 is a line in the sand.  regionality still comes into play for the lower t14 schools

It comes into play for all of the T14.  Going to a t14 does not suffice.  You need to do well there to access jobs around the country.  Of course, you can do relatively poorly and get a good job in a major market or a great job in a secondary market with ties to the area.  But you're less likely to make market and you almost definitely won't get your first choice firm.



So, you're saying doing well at Temple is better for Philadelphia placement than doing poorly at, say, Northwestern or Cornell?

Maybe.  I don't know too much about the specifics.

Download the link at the bottom of this page, it is probably the best source for such information.

http://www.autoadmit.com/studies/ciolli/ (http://www.autoadmit.com/studies/ciolli/)

Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 140am on January 16, 2006, 05:30:29 PM
Another underrated school: UCLA & Texas.  It really should be Sweet Sixteen, not T14. 

t14 is a little strange, but 'sweet 16' isnt any better.  vandy is as national as ucla

Yeah.  They're included too.

I think the top 25 is a better term to use.  Of course, you can still distinguish between 1-10, 10-15, 15-20, 20-25 etc.

But it is not so hard and fast like we make it on the internet.

i agree, round #s are better and there t14 is a line in the sand.  regionality still comes into play for the lower t14 schools

It comes into play for all of the T14.  Going to a t14 does not suffice.  You need to do well there to access jobs around the country.  Of course, you can do relatively poorly and get a good job in a major market or a great job in a secondary market with ties to the area.  But you're less likely to make market and you almost definitely won't get your first choice firm.



So, you're saying doing well at Temple is better for Philadelphia placement than doing poorly at, say, Northwestern or Cornell?

Maybe.  I don't know too much about the specifics.

Download the link at the bottom of this page, it is probably the best source for such information.

http://www.autoadmit.com/studies/ciolli/ (http://www.autoadmit.com/studies/ciolli/)



Well, I didn't mean it in terms of specifics about those schools; i meant it generally -- let me ask it this way -- do you mean to say that doing well at a local tier two in most markets might be better than being bottom say...15-25% at an out-of-town t14/t25?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Ego on January 16, 2006, 05:33:03 PM
Another underrated school: UCLA & Texas.  It really should be Sweet Sixteen, not T14. 

t14 is a little strange, but 'sweet 16' isnt any better.  vandy is as national as ucla

Yeah.  They're included too.

I think the top 25 is a better term to use.  Of course, you can still distinguish between 1-10, 10-15, 15-20, 20-25 etc.

But it is not so hard and fast like we make it on the internet.

i agree, round #s are better and there t14 is a line in the sand.  regionality still comes into play for the lower t14 schools

It comes into play for all of the T14.  Going to a t14 does not suffice.  You need to do well there to access jobs around the country.  Of course, you can do relatively poorly and get a good job in a major market or a great job in a secondary market with ties to the area.  But you're less likely to make market and you almost definitely won't get your first choice firm.



So, you're saying doing well at Temple is better for Philadelphia placement than doing poorly at, say, Northwestern or Cornell?

Maybe.  I don't know too much about the specifics.

Download the link at the bottom of this page, it is probably the best source for such information.

http://www.autoadmit.com/studies/ciolli/ (http://www.autoadmit.com/studies/ciolli/)



Well, I didn't mean it in terms of specifics about those schools; i meant it generally -- let me ask it this way -- do you mean to say that doing well at a local tier two in most markets might be better than being bottom say...15-25% at an out-of-town t14/t25?

Being top 25% or top 3rd in the market you want to practice in at a local tier 1/tier 2, like the second or third best school in the market, is just as good or better than being bottom quarter at a better school across a few states. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: queencruella on January 16, 2006, 05:43:51 PM
It all depends on the area and the school.  In my area, we have one tier 3 school and that's it. It's well recognized in the area and in the state, so I don't think that going to top-25 school just for the prestige factor in hopes of getting a job here is really going to help.  However, even at the top schools in my state, you can't really hope of getting a job anywhere else, so if you have an inkling that you don't want to work here, it's best to go out of state. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 140am on January 16, 2006, 05:47:33 PM
Another underrated school: UCLA & Texas.  It really should be Sweet Sixteen, not T14. 

t14 is a little strange, but 'sweet 16' isnt any better.  vandy is as national as ucla

Yeah.  They're included too.

I think the top 25 is a better term to use.  Of course, you can still distinguish between 1-10, 10-15, 15-20, 20-25 etc.

But it is not so hard and fast like we make it on the internet.

i agree, round #s are better and there t14 is a line in the sand.  regionality still comes into play for the lower t14 schools

It comes into play for all of the T14.  Going to a t14 does not suffice.  You need to do well there to access jobs around the country.  Of course, you can do relatively poorly and get a good job in a major market or a great job in a secondary market with ties to the area.  But you're less likely to make market and you almost definitely won't get your first choice firm.



So, you're saying doing well at Temple is better for Philadelphia placement than doing poorly at, say, Northwestern or Cornell?

Maybe.  I don't know too much about the specifics.

Download the link at the bottom of this page, it is probably the best source for such information.

http://www.autoadmit.com/studies/ciolli/ (http://www.autoadmit.com/studies/ciolli/)



Well, I didn't mean it in terms of specifics about those schools; i meant it generally -- let me ask it this way -- do you mean to say that doing well at a local tier two in most markets might be better than being bottom say...15-25% at an out-of-town t14/t25?

Being top 25% or top 3rd in the market you want to practice in at a local tier 1/tier 2, like the second or third best school in the market, is just as good or better than being bottom quarter at a better school across a few states. 

That's what I was thinking, but ...

It all depends on the area and the school.  In my area, we have one tier 3 school and that's it. It's well recognized in the area and in the state, so I don't think that going to top-25 school just for the prestige factor in hopes of getting a job here is really going to help.  However, even at the top schools in my state, you can't really hope of getting a job anywhere else, so if you have an inkling that you don't want to work here, it's best to go out of state. 
It all depends on the area and the school.  In my area, we have one tier 3 school and that's it. It's well recognized in the area and in the state, so I don't think that going to top-25 school just for the prestige factor in hopes of getting a job here is really going to help.  However, even at the top schools in my state, you can't really hope of getting a job anywhere else, so if you have an inkling that you don't want to work here, it's best to go out of state. 

...It seems that it really depends on the individual market.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Ego on January 16, 2006, 05:53:49 PM
It does depend. I remember you from way back & saw your lsn.

Choosing between Villanova/Temple v. GW would be a tough call. 

If you are set on Philly, go to a Philly school and try hard to do kick ass.  GW would be better if you wanted to do IP or you weren't set on PHilly, just on the midatlantic region or DC or something.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 140am on January 16, 2006, 05:55:55 PM
It does depend. I remember you from way back & saw your lsn.

Choosing between Villanova/Temple v. GW would be a tough call. 

If you are set on Philly, go to a Philly school and try hard to do kick ass.  GW would be better if you wanted to do IP or you weren't set on PHilly, just on the midatlantic region or DC or something.

I applied to GW because my dad strongly encouraged me to, for convoluted family reasons.  I'm not expecting and admit there.  Sure, anything is possible, and if it happens, well that'll be a hard choice to make, since I primarily want to be here in Philly.  Actually, if I get dinged there, I'm making my dad give me $80.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Ego on January 16, 2006, 06:09:46 PM
It does depend. I remember you from way back & saw your lsn.

Choosing between Villanova/Temple v. GW would be a tough call. 

If you are set on Philly, go to a Philly school and try hard to do kick ass.  GW would be better if you wanted to do IP or you weren't set on PHilly, just on the midatlantic region or DC or something.

I applied to GW because my dad strongly encouraged me to, for convoluted family reasons.  I'm not expecting and admit there.  Sure, anything is possible, and if it happens, well that'll be a hard choice to make, since I primarily want to be here in Philly.  Actually, if I get dinged there, I'm making my dad give me $80.

Temple has the better rep in Philly right? 

Villanova has an aura effect from its undergrad.  And since I'm from LI, a lot of people go down there for school. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: SuicideNixon on January 17, 2006, 04:58:37 AM
Another underrated school: UCLA & Texas.  It really should be Sweet Sixteen, not T14. 

t14 is a little strange, but 'sweet 16' isnt any better.  vandy is as national as ucla

Yeah.  They're included too.

I think the top 25 is a better term to use.  Of course, you can still distinguish between 1-10, 10-15, 15-20, 20-25 etc.

But it is not so hard and fast like we make it on the internet.

i agree, round #s are better and there t14 is a line in the sand.  regionality still comes into play for the lower t14 schools

It comes into play for all of the T14.  Going to a t14 does not suffice.  You need to do well there to access jobs around the country.  Of course, you can do relatively poorly and get a good job in a major market or a great job in a secondary market with ties to the area.  But you're less likely to make market and you almost definitely won't get your first choice firm.



it doesn't matter where you rank at harvard, unless you have your heart set on one of the ten most selective firms in the country
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Goodfella Aaron on January 17, 2006, 06:29:20 AM
It does depend. I remember you from way back & saw your lsn.

Choosing between Villanova/Temple v. GW would be a tough call. 

If you are set on Philly, go to a Philly school and try hard to do kick ass.  GW would be better if you wanted to do IP or you weren't set on PHilly, just on the midatlantic region or DC or something.

I applied to GW because my dad strongly encouraged me to, for convoluted family reasons.  I'm not expecting and admit there.  Sure, anything is possible, and if it happens, well that'll be a hard choice to make, since I primarily want to be here in Philly.  Actually, if I get dinged there, I'm making my dad give me $80.

Temple has the better rep in Philly right? 

Villanova has an aura effect from its undergrad.  And since I'm from LI, a lot of people go down there for school. 

This is only anecdotal evidence but when I saw Philadelphia Magazine's listing of the best lawyers in town it seemed like a lot of them went to Villanova, not so many from Temple. They're about the same in the USNWR rankings though.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Ego on January 17, 2006, 06:56:06 AM
Another underrated school: UCLA & Texas.  It really should be Sweet Sixteen, not T14. 

t14 is a little strange, but 'sweet 16' isnt any better.  vandy is as national as ucla

Yeah.  They're included too.

I think the top 25 is a better term to use.  Of course, you can still distinguish between 1-10, 10-15, 15-20, 20-25 etc.

But it is not so hard and fast like we make it on the internet.

i agree, round #s are better and there t14 is a line in the sand.  regionality still comes into play for the lower t14 schools

It comes into play for all of the T14.  Going to a t14 does not suffice.  You need to do well there to access jobs around the country.  Of course, you can do relatively poorly and get a good job in a major market or a great job in a secondary market with ties to the area.  But you're less likely to make market and you almost definitely won't get your first choice firm.



it doesn't matter where you rank at harvard, unless you have your heart set on one of the ten most selective firms in the country


When I was using the term t14, it includes but can't really reflect the differences, between the T3 schools and the rest. 

My basic point was that getting into the T14 doesn't just open up every door to you.  You still need to do pretty well to get a V20 job.  And if you want to clerk or do academia like so many people do, then you better do extremely well. 

And also it was in terms of regionality.  Being bottom half at a t14 (sans hys) may have difficulty getting back to X market across the country.  Because their grades are poor.  And the firm might as well just hire a local tier 3 grad that graduated Summa and EIC. 

Basically I meant that the great firms have high cutoff points.  You'll get a job, just maybe at a 50-100 or in a secondary market.  Like I said, not your first choice.


 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Ego on January 17, 2006, 06:57:16 AM
It does depend. I remember you from way back & saw your lsn.

Choosing between Villanova/Temple v. GW would be a tough call. 

If you are set on Philly, go to a Philly school and try hard to do kick ass.  GW would be better if you wanted to do IP or you weren't set on PHilly, just on the midatlantic region or DC or something.

I applied to GW because my dad strongly encouraged me to, for convoluted family reasons.  I'm not expecting and admit there.  Sure, anything is possible, and if it happens, well that'll be a hard choice to make, since I primarily want to be here in Philly.  Actually, if I get dinged there, I'm making my dad give me $80.

Temple has the better rep in Philly right? 

Villanova has an aura effect from its undergrad.  And since I'm from LI, a lot of people go down there for school. 

This is only anecdotal evidence but when I saw Philadelphia Magazine's listing of the best lawyers in town it seemed like a lot of them went to Villanova, not so many from Temple. They're about the same in the USNWR rankings though.

Yeah they are about the same I thought so.

Maybe Nova has a few more legacy kind of lawyers.  Or the old money in Philly goes there or something.  Seems like that kind of place to me.  From what people who attend say. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 140am on January 17, 2006, 07:32:30 AM
I've been trying to figure out the differences in perception between Villanova, Rutgers, and Temple.  I'd prefer Temple based only on tuition, if nothing else, but they are much stronger in study abroad opportunities, something important to me, and I'd like to be there because a family member went there and then we'd have a family tradition.  I'm still thrilled to be in at Villanova and would go there without hesitation if it came to it, though it's not cheap (~$28k tuition).

It seems like the schools have almost equal reputations, but I'd be interested in seeing that magazine article.  What month was it in?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Goodfella Aaron on January 17, 2006, 08:48:52 AM
I've been trying to figure out the differences in perception between Villanova, Rutgers, and Temple.  I'd prefer Temple based only on tuition, if nothing else, but they are much stronger in study abroad opportunities, something important to me, and I'd like to be there because a family member went there and then we'd have a family tradition.  I'm still thrilled to be in at Villanova and would go there without hesitation if it came to it, though it's not cheap (~$28k tuition).

It seems like the schools have almost equal reputations, but I'd be interested in seeing that magazine article.  What month was it in?

Pretty sure it was December. It had Ben Franklin holding a laptop on the cover.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 140am on January 17, 2006, 09:55:18 AM

Pretty sure it was December. It had Ben Franklin holding a laptop on the cover.

Thanks for the info.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: txaggie on January 24, 2006, 02:17:03 PM
I think UHouston is underrated.  I don't understand how it can be #2 on the Healthcare Law specialties list, and #4 on the IP specialties list, but end up #65 on the general list.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: shae on January 25, 2006, 04:10:51 PM
has anyone mentioned south texas as underrated?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Happy_Weasel on February 08, 2006, 08:35:53 PM
Akron is #84 without rep rating. Their new stats will be (156-160, 3.2-3.7) with a median of 56K salary and a bar rate of 84%. This is something you would expect of a T2 school. Their rep rating is 1.8 and 2.1.. though they are a pretty small law school.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 140am on February 09, 2006, 06:26:33 AM
Well, then I'd say they are right on target :)
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Happy_Weasel on February 09, 2006, 09:55:49 AM
My guess is because they only have 400 students.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 140am on February 09, 2006, 11:34:53 AM
My guess is because they only have 400 students.

Oh, I thought you were saying they were #84.  So you're saying if you took out rep rating, they'd be a T2.  Well, perhaps they will be on the rise soon?

Or is rep rating one of the more important ratings?  I don't know too much about the methodology.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: queencruella on February 09, 2006, 01:03:22 PM
Rep rating accounts for the largest percentage of the USNWR score - 40%. Selectivity is 25%, Placement success is 20%, and Faculty/resources is 15%.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 140am on February 09, 2006, 01:23:25 PM
Rep rating accounts for the largest percentage of the USNWR score - 40%. Selectivity is 25%, Placement success is 20%, and Faculty/resources is 15%.

Thanks Ms. Queen!
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Happy_Weasel on February 09, 2006, 03:07:00 PM
They only have like 3000 alumni compared to most schools that have 10000...I can see why their rep is low.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: paran0id on February 11, 2006, 02:15:15 PM
Don't know if it's been said (I'm too lazy to real all ten of the previous pages), but based upon the rerankings I made I would have to say that Wisconsin is definitely underrated.

The post:
http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php/topic,54060.0.html (http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php/topic,54060.0.html)
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Happy_Weasel on February 11, 2006, 04:38:51 PM
Well, your bar passage IS guaranteed in Wisoncin and that's the only school in Wisconsin.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: SuicideNixon on February 12, 2006, 12:49:07 PM
Well, your bar passage IS guaranteed in Wisoncin and that's the only school in Wisconsin.

it's one of two schools in wisconsin
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Happy_Weasel on February 12, 2006, 01:21:22 PM
Whats the other? Marquette U? They are Tier 2, aren't they?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: SuicideNixon on February 12, 2006, 01:34:13 PM
Whats the other? Marquette U? They are Tier 2, aren't they?

yea
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Happy_Weasel on February 12, 2006, 01:54:33 PM
From what I understand, you need a 155 to be in the running at Marquette and a 162 for Wis.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: rugger on March 22, 2006, 01:25:06 PM
stetson by far is underrated... it is the 1st US school to win the world moot court championship since 96', it has the #1 trial advocacy program in the country and #3 legal writing and research program, highly respected, the attornies i work for all say that it is much better than U Miami (which is overrated)
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Mr. Pink on March 22, 2006, 01:37:21 PM
Rutgers - Newark...
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: redemption on March 22, 2006, 01:42:24 PM
The correct answer is Fordham. A school should be measured by the quality of its student body and by the quality of their career opportunities afterward. There's no way that Fordham is 27th by that metric. It's a T14 that isn't recognized as such by USNews.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: SouthSide on March 23, 2006, 11:43:30 AM
I agree that Chicago is underrated. It has the best faculty of any law school in the country, bar none. Plus, it's a small school so there are better student-faculty relationships, from what I've heard. I can't quite figure out why it isn't ranked 4th, ahead of NYU and Columbia, and maybe it should even be a bit higher than that. In terms of just the education quality that you get, it might be the best. I guess it doesn't have the universally recognizable name that some of the schools ranked above it have, but it does get mad respect in the legal community.

Would have applied, but I did undergrad at Chicago and was ready to move on. Plus, personal factors meant I needed to be on the East Coast.

Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: redemption on March 23, 2006, 11:56:04 AM
Red, I usually find myself in agreement with you so often that someone felt compelled to introduce me to the term GAK.  ;)  But on this I disagree.  The quality of a school should mostly be a reflection of the quality of the faculty, specifically the faculty's influence on the student body.  We don't have a standard of measure for law school to show this, but it would be measured by pre and post testing.  If a school can take an average student body and create above average graduates, it's a good school.  If a school can regularly take a student body with credentials lower than their peer schools and create graduates who clearly outperform their peer schools' graduates, then they are underranked.  I think that is why so many of us value the U of Chicago.  Some people pick NYU and Columbia over Chicago, but usually because of either geography or the perception that it is much more difficult than other law schools.  If anything, Fordham's strong student body (I haven't looked at it, but trust you) should be a mark against it.

I am Chicago's biggest fan. I think it may be the best law school in the country, with only Yale as its peer.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: verbal on March 23, 2006, 12:45:39 PM
The correct answer is Fordham. A school should be measured by the quality of its student body and by the quality of their career opportunities afterward. There's no way that Fordham is 27th by that metric. It's a T14 that isn't recognized as such by USNews.

i have read in a couple of books that Fordham kids r seen as very hard working but not rediculously bright. i have never met someone who attends fordham nor am i saying this is true. i just found it interesting that it appeared in more than one book i was reading.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: redemption on March 23, 2006, 12:57:31 PM
The correct answer is Fordham. A school should be measured by the quality of its student body and by the quality of their career opportunities afterward. There's no way that Fordham is 27th by that metric. It's a T14 that isn't recognized as such by USNews.

i have read in a couple of books that Fordham kids r seen as very hard working but not rediculously bright. i have never met someone who attends fordham nor am i saying this is true. i just found it interesting that it appeared in more than one book i was reading.

It's my impression that law students in general are not ridiculously bright but are instead hardworking. By the imperfect measures of LSAT scores and GPAs, those students outperform many student bodies above them in the rankings.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: verbal on March 23, 2006, 01:15:40 PM
i concede the second point. the first point is rather interesting. i wonder how true it is. i guess we will all find out in a few months.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: twoxfaced on March 23, 2006, 01:18:44 PM
id have to say cuny from what i've heard.  the students i've met are all brilliant and hardworking and passionate.  i hear the same about the faculty. i hear many opportunities are given to cuny students that they wouldnt receive at other larger, more cuthroat and numbers based schools.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 140am on March 23, 2006, 02:06:26 PM
It's my impression that law students in general are not ridiculously bright but are instead hardworking.

I don't think that impression is really all that accurate.  It really depends on the individual law student in question.  I know some law students and lawyers who are real idiots.  Seriously.  And on the flip side, some of the smarter people I know are law students.  I don't know anyone attending a top 20 school at this point, either.  Of the people I know who did attend top 25 schools, the people I know who attend schools in the 50-70 range are pretty much their equals.

I don't think 'law students' is valuable as a group identifier for any purpose other than lumping together a bunch of people who all share in common the study of law.  Beyond that, there are jocks, drama queens, hippies, nerds, geniuses, idiots, hard workers, slackers, alcoholics, drug addicts, the out of shape, gunners, parents, ex military, etc.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: chidochido on March 23, 2006, 02:24:44 PM
The kids I know at Fordham aren't that smaht but they work hahd...I think a stunner could walk in there and tear it up if you put your mind to it...
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: redemption on March 23, 2006, 02:33:12 PM
There are probably very few law schools about which that is not true.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: redemption on March 23, 2006, 03:28:06 PM
I think I was a bit stand-offish in my statements. That night be it. I'm not fretting.  :)
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: SouthSide on March 24, 2006, 03:47:13 AM
[quote author=retake
Here comes my GAK:

I agree.  In fact, I think that it could be argued that it is better.  It takes people who have statistically significantly lower GPA's, statistically significantly lower LSAT scores, and puts them into SCOTUS clerkships, top 50 law firms all over the country, and academia at nearly the same rates as Yale.
[/quote]

It's been said that ranking schools by the quality of students they admit is akin to ranking hospitals by the condition of the patients they admit.

An imperfect analogy, but one that has some sense to it.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: redemption on March 24, 2006, 09:15:20 AM
[quote author=retake
Here comes my GAK:

I agree.  In fact, I think that it could be argued that it is better.  It takes people who have statistically significantly lower GPA's, statistically significantly lower LSAT scores, and puts them into SCOTUS clerkships, top 50 law firms all over the country, and academia at nearly the same rates as Yale.

It's been said that ranking schools by the quality of students they admit is akin to ranking hospitals by the condition of the patients they admit.

An imperfect analogy, but one that has some sense to it.
[/quote]

Really? Gee, I don't know about that.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Stifler on March 24, 2006, 09:34:24 AM
fordham is the 15th most selective school in the nation.  they are ranked around 30...
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: mae8 on March 25, 2006, 08:50:19 AM
Selectivity = Input
We can measure this very well. The other main criteria for evaluating a school should be output, but measuring career prospects is considerably more difficult than gpas, lsats, and acceptance rates. Is Duke better than Yale because more Dukies enter private practice immediately and thus make more $$$? Some clerkships more presitigious than V50? Measuring the quality of the incoming students is probably the best way to evaluate a school, assuming the career options are in line with your expectations. Fordham is extremely tough to get into for its rank and places very well in the largest market.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: cyberrev on March 25, 2006, 09:29:16 AM
[quote author=retake
Here comes my GAK:

I agree.  In fact, I think that it could be argued that it is better.  It takes people who have statistically significantly lower GPA's, statistically significantly lower LSAT scores, and puts them into SCOTUS clerkships, top 50 law firms all over the country, and academia at nearly the same rates as Yale.

It's been said that ranking schools by the quality of students they admit is akin to ranking hospitals by the condition of the patients they admit.

An imperfect analogy, but one that has some sense to it.

Really? Gee, I don't know about that.
[/quote]



no, it would be more like ranking hospitals by the interns
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: paran0id on March 25, 2006, 11:19:49 AM
UIUC has the 17th best placement in biglaw firms but is ranked 26:

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1126256708738
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 140am on March 25, 2006, 12:19:45 PM
fordham is the 15th most selective school in the nation.  they are ranked around 30...

Yeah, but it's a school for New York.  It's not well represented in most other markets, and even if that is self-selection, it hurts the ranking because the rankings are national rankings.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: mae8 on March 25, 2006, 12:23:06 PM
True of most schools. In denver DU has avery very positive image. Step outside the state however and you'll get a very different picture. For all but the very best schools regional rankings would make more sense.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 140am on March 25, 2006, 12:24:19 PM
True of most schools. In denver DU has avery very positive image. Step outside the state however and you'll get a very different picture. For all but the very best schools regional rankings would make more sense.

I agree.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Happy_Weasel on March 26, 2006, 11:25:48 PM
True of most schools. In denver DU has avery very positive image. Step outside the state however and you'll get a very different picture. For all but the very best schools regional rankings would make more sense.

Yeah. ...and by what do you mean "a different picture"? Will people not hear of it or will people just say that their graduates are phuck ups?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 140am on March 27, 2006, 11:52:18 AM
True of most schools. In denver DU has avery very positive image. Step outside the state however and you'll get a very different picture. For all but the very best schools regional rankings would make more sense.

Yeah. ...and by what do you mean "a different picture"? Will people not hear of it or will people just say that their graduates are phuck ups?

He means that in Denver, it's a great school to go to.  In California or Virginia, it's not going to open as many doors/be viewed as well.

There is no point in saying Denver is a 2nd tier school if your ambition is to study, work, and live in Denver -- then going to Denver, for that person, is probably just as good a decision as leaving to go elsewhere simply because of rank.

These examples get more gray in certain regions (like Philadelphia, where some t14 grads want to be, where there is a t14 law school, etc.) but even in these cases, regional rankings would mean more/make more sense because if your goal is to live/study/work in one area, it doesn't really matter as much that 50-90 law schools might be nationally ranked ahead of the school(s) in your area.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Lurking Third Year on April 02, 2006, 03:59:19 PM
Temple is consistently underrated. Anyone who has visited the school in the past two years and taken time to actually look at the place would realize that it is far better than its #65 ranking implies.

It's the "reptutation" scores that do us in every single year. A 2.6 peer review score? Ridiculous. In objective factors we're as good as most of the 39-50 tier 1 schools, and in some cases, better.

I find it a little odd that you put reputation in quotes, as if lawyers' perception of a school is not an important aspect of any ranking system.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Happy_Weasel on April 02, 2006, 04:07:05 PM
Maybe schools just look at the stats of other schools.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: SuicideNixon on April 03, 2006, 08:13:59 PM
Temple is consistently underrated. Anyone who has visited the school in the past two years and taken time to actually look at the place would realize that it is far better than its #65 ranking implies.

It's the "reptutation" scores that do us in every single year. A 2.6 peer review score? Ridiculous. In objective factors we're as good as most of the 39-50 tier 1 schools, and in some cases, better.

I find it a little odd that you put reputation in quotes, as if lawyers' perception of a school is not an important aspect of any ranking system.

it's just that their survey is really bad. it has a terrible response rate, and it's biased against regional schools and schools in smaller cities
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Tulane1L on April 06, 2006, 10:22:31 PM
Tulane is obviously underrated.

GMU, Maryland, and Emory are obviously overrated.

Just saying :D
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Micromag on April 07, 2006, 12:01:57 AM
Northeastern is seriously underrated.

Ther co-op program and no grade policy keeps them down.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Happy_Weasel on April 07, 2006, 12:11:35 AM
I would have applied to NE if I got like 3 points higher and had money.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: linquest on April 08, 2006, 12:19:24 AM
Northeastern is seriously underrated.

Ther co-op program and no grade policy keeps them down.

Actually, I think their co-op program boosts their ratings.  I'd say it's a combination of the no-letter-grade system, the PI focus (and thus lower salary stats), and their de-emphasis on numbers in the application process. 

Considering the excellent employment rate and the fact that the last MA bar passage rate was higher than any other school but Harvard, I'm really surprised their rank dropped last year.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: cyberrev on April 08, 2006, 05:58:14 AM
Northeastern is seriously underrated.

Ther co-op program and no grade policy keeps them down.


yale's no-grade policy doesnt seem to hurt them much
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 01100110011 on April 08, 2006, 08:21:25 PM
What schools are underrated by the US News rankings?   

HLS
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Tulane1L on April 08, 2006, 08:37:35 PM
Cooley is underrated for sure.  It should be, oh, at least #24.  Def. higher than those TTTs Stanford and Chicago!
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 01100110011 on April 08, 2006, 08:45:24 PM
Northeastern is seriously underrated.

Ther co-op program and no grade policy keeps them down.

Actually, I think their co-op program boosts their ratings.  I'd say it's a combination of the no-letter-grade system, the PI focus (and thus lower salary stats), and their de-emphasis on numbers in the application process. 

Considering the excellent employment rate and the fact that the last MA bar passage rate was higher than any other school but Harvard, I'm really surprised their rank dropped last year.

Yeah, I think the coop helps them--it is key to getting them jobs.  Their lack of money, relatively short time of existence,and subpart name recognition hurt their student quality.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: dennycrane on April 13, 2006, 09:53:04 PM
gotta agree with bender ... emory is def underrated 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: kmpnj on April 13, 2006, 10:59:29 PM
Yet another plug for my future alma mater....

How can Widener be 4th tier, but have a top-10 Health Law program?  It would seem that that alone would merit NOT being 4th tier.  That's ok, though.  I've always liked being the underdog.  Makes victory that much sweeter.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: kmpnj on April 13, 2006, 11:06:21 PM

U goin to the DE campus?

Yeah, just put down the deposit on the apartment today.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: kmpnj on April 13, 2006, 11:20:43 PM
question: you may not know, but do all those credit card companies do a lot of recruiting at widener?


just curious cuz it seems like theres a trillion credit card companies out of delaware, and widener is the only LS
I know they do a ton of corporate stuff.  In fact, they have a whole seperate law journal just to deal with corporate law.  Plus, most of the biglaw firms have offices in Wilmington to deal with all of the corporate stuff.  I'm going there more for the trial advocacy program, so I'm not sure that biglaw is my thing.  Although, after filling out all of the financial aid forms, I'm starting to think that I may not be able to do gov't law right now.

As for those credit card firms, I'm not sure that they hire folks right out of law school.  I'm almost positive you'd have to have about 5 years of experience in order to get an in-house counsel job.  But that's only a guess.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: dennycrane on April 14, 2006, 06:24:32 AM
In all fairness, I posted that before the jump (or return) to #26...


I'd say Emory is right where it should be...24-26...

I'd love to see us get down to the low 20s again, but I think the rankings game is too insane now.... schools in the top 25 will be VERY unwilling to give any ground....

i think we'll pass W&L at least in the next rankings...we stole their dean  8)
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: dbk10 on April 17, 2006, 12:10:31 PM
Or you can look at it as...the Dean at W&L already brought that program up to par and is now looking for a new challenge - Emory.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: dennycrane on April 17, 2006, 02:42:25 PM
i refer you to this topic for my response ...

http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php/topic,59622.msg1210140.html#msg1210140

Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: dbk10 on April 17, 2006, 02:52:36 PM
It just sounds like he accomplished what he set out to accomplish and is now looking for a new challenge.
http://www.law.wlu.edu/news/storydetail.asp?id=156
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: dennycrane on April 17, 2006, 03:01:41 PM
i agree with you, but i think he left W&L because he brought it up as high as it can get and emory has the potential to go higher then W&L, people are going to disagree with me but what's the point of having an opinion if no one disagrees with you  8)?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: shae on April 18, 2006, 02:54:17 PM
so all these  schools you guys say are underrated- which schools ranked above them should not be?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: SouthSide on April 18, 2006, 06:03:26 PM
I think the overrated question is much more interesting. WUSTL is overrated for sure. Northwestern is also overrated, IMO. Yale is overrated only in the sense that it is not clearly superior to Harvard, even though it is always ranked way superior. You could make a case for either being 1, but Yale always is 1 just because it's smaller.



Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Dunson II on April 18, 2006, 06:19:49 PM
I think the overrated question is much more interesting. WUSTL is overrated for sure. Northwestern is also overrated, IMO. Yale is overrated only in the sense that it is not clearly superior to Harvard, even though it is always ranked way superior. You could make a case for either being 1, but Yale always is 1 just because it's smaller.

I used to think Fordham was underrated, but now I think the opposite is the case.  They have like the 16th best student bodies yet they cannot crack the top 25...something is wrong about that.  There placement is better than BLS and Dozo, but not that many places better. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Dunson II on April 18, 2006, 06:25:54 PM
I think the overrated question is much more interesting. WUSTL is overrated for sure. Northwestern is also overrated, IMO. Yale is overrated only in the sense that it is not clearly superior to Harvard, even though it is always ranked way superior. You could make a case for either being 1, but Yale always is 1 just because it's smaller.

I used to think Fordham was underrated, but now I think the opposite is the case.  They have like the 16th best student bodies yet they cannot crack the top 25...something is wrong about that.  There placement is better than BLS and Dozo, but not that many places better. 


IMO Fordham's ranking this year is right where it deserves to be... it is a regional school.




But it is overrated because of the region it is in, if it were in Portland, Maine, it would not be ranked so high. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Dunson II on April 18, 2006, 06:31:46 PM
I think the overrated question is much more interesting. WUSTL is overrated for sure. Northwestern is also overrated, IMO. Yale is overrated only in the sense that it is not clearly superior to Harvard, even though it is always ranked way superior. You could make a case for either being 1, but Yale always is 1 just because it's smaller.

I used to think Fordham was underrated, but now I think the opposite is the case.  They have like the 16th best student bodies yet they cannot crack the top 25...something is wrong about that.  There placement is better than BLS and Dozo, but not that many places better. 


IMO Fordham's ranking this year is right where it deserves to be... it is a regional school.




But it is overrated because of the region it is in, if it were in Portland, Maine, it would not be ranked so high. 

yeah, but it's not in Maine... it's in NYC... and it's the 3rd best law school there...

3rd best in the city, but not even top 10 in terms of getting a job there. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Dunson II on April 18, 2006, 06:52:29 PM
I think the overrated question is much more interesting. WUSTL is overrated for sure. Northwestern is also overrated, IMO. Yale is overrated only in the sense that it is not clearly superior to Harvard, even though it is always ranked way superior. You could make a case for either being 1, but Yale always is 1 just because it's smaller.

I used to think Fordham was underrated, but now I think the opposite is the case.  They have like the 16th best student bodies yet they cannot crack the top 25...something is wrong about that.  There placement is better than BLS and Dozo, but not that many places better. 


IMO Fordham's ranking this year is right where it deserves to be... it is a regional school.




But it is overrated because of the region it is in, if it were in Portland, Maine, it would not be ranked so high. 

yeah, but it's not in Maine... it's in NYC... and it's the 3rd best law school there...

3rd best in the city, but not even top 10 in terms of getting a job there. 

Yeah, it's good but not great... Which I believe warrants a low-30's ranking.

I think it should be 40-50, but hey, I still have love for the Rams!
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Alamo on April 23, 2006, 08:25:15 PM
W&L is UNDERrated.  With its LSAT scores and 10.5 student-faculty ratio, it's easily a top 20 school. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Dunson II on April 23, 2006, 11:48:16 PM
W&L is UNDERrated.  With its LSAT scores and 10.5 student-faculty ratio, it's easily a top 20 school. 

Crappy rep/placement. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Dunson II on April 23, 2006, 11:52:56 PM
W&L is UNDERrated.  With its LSAT scores and 10.5 student-faculty ratio, it's easily a top 20 school. 

Crappy rep/placement. 

yeah, id say its employment stats need some improvement... (if you're talking top 20 i mean)  +- 90% 9 months out.... thats troubling.

Seriously.  Though I am considering visiting the ampersands and those schollys they give sound good. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Dunson II on April 24, 2006, 12:01:18 AM
W&L is UNDERrated.  With its LSAT scores and 10.5 student-faculty ratio, it's easily a top 20 school. 

Crazy W&L troll.


its actually very subtle fordham trolling.

Explain.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Dunson II on April 24, 2006, 12:12:47 AM
W&L is UNDERrated.  With its LSAT scores and 10.5 student-faculty ratio, it's easily a top 20 school. 

Crazy W&L troll.


its actually very subtle fordham trolling.

Explain.

Haha, I like it.  On the basis of LSAT numbers, Fordham is definitely underranked.  No one will concede that W&L is underranked because there are no obvious schools in front of it, and it's kind of weak with the placement stuff.  Fordham is ranked lower and there are schools in front of it that it should not be behind, and the career outlook for Fordham students is excellent because of its strong reputation in the country's top legal market.  Based on LSAT, Fordham ties USC, passes everyone behind USC, and arguably (depending on if you worry more about the 25th or 75th percentile) beats UCLA and Texas.


Ok, that's pretty much what I figured.  Cool. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Alamo on April 24, 2006, 09:01:21 AM
W&L is UNDERrated.  With its LSAT scores and 10.5 student-faculty ratio, it's easily a top 20 school. 

Crazy W&L troll.


its actually very subtle fordham trolling.

Explain.


im only joking, but usually you see fordham trolls touting the lsat percentiles, as he was with W&L

I'm nothing if not an LSAT snob.  And I love to stick up for W&L.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: "V" on April 24, 2006, 07:55:58 PM
Whatever school I go to...

Which happens to be UIUC. Yes, TERRIBLY underated, a crime against all humanity and history it is.

Seriously though, UIUC ranks in or near the t20 in every ranking I've seen except USNEWS. Why must USNEWS kick on my school. Next year though... next year will be our year!
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: "V" on April 25, 2006, 11:35:09 AM
Whatever school I go to...

Which happens to be UIUC. Yes, TERRIBLY underated, a crime against all humanity and history it is.

Seriously though, UIUC ranks in or near the t20 in every ranking I've seen except USNEWS. Why must USNEWS kick on my school. Next year though... next year will be our year!

Which schools do you think it should jump in front of?  It's easy to say "oh this school should be a top 20 school" or "this one's definitely top 25" and come up with too many schools for the number of spaces.  Even the whole notion of the t14 is that there are more than 10 schools that could qualify as top ten schools.

In terms of faculty strength, sure, UIUC might be top 20.  I know Brian Leiter has said that, and I know how much we all love him here at LSD! :P  In terms of career prospects, OCI and the like, it's simply not a top twenty law school--yeah it's great in Chicago, but it's pretty weak on the coasts.  In terms of student body strenght measure by GPA/LSAT combo, it's not top 20 because of that low-end GPA (coughLSATwhorescough).

And which other rankings are you talking about?  There's USNWR, Leiter, that Ciolli placement study... surely you're not referencing the Cooley rankings?

Cooley rankings are the wave of the future - ask any Cooley student  ;)

Well, obviously USNEWS is the major ranking system - so I'm not trying to suggest anything else ought to be taken as more gospel than that. Though I am more fond of Leiter. I'm just saying that when I started this whole law school 'thing' I typed 'law school rankings into google' and got helped to more than my fair share of opinions, and on most of those, UIUC ranks better, often significantly so, than  USNEWS. I'm not trying to suggest that Brennan's or lawschool100.com ought to be taken in higher standing - just that USNEWS seems to be the roughest on poor UIUC. No love, no love.

As for which schools, seriously, come on, I'm not interested in saying other people's schools should be moved down. I just think 27 doesn't reflect UIUC's quality compared to other schools in that range. And yeah, in terms of faculty, library, students, and big firm placement, Illinois ought to be a top 20. You can brush those things off, and you're entitled to do so, but when I look for a school I'm interested primarily in those things, much more than I am with entering GPA or repuation (on which UIUC gets screwed because it's in a state with Northwestern and UC). If the school's rep is a 1, but it's job placement in big firms, employment and bar passage rates, and average salary are all fantastic, then I'm way less 'rep' concerned. That's just my view on it though.

Yes, it's coast placement isn't the world's best, but it's improving, and it's Chicago placement is LOCKED. I don't mind working in Chicago for a couple years and then going anywhere I like with that experience. In my case, my wife loves Chicago more than anywhere else she's ever seen - so UIUC really can't be beat in that regard. As I understand it, most UIUC grads have options outside Chicago, but get much nicer offers to stay in the area.

Anyways, I'm not saying top 10, but I do think UIUC ought to be a top 20 school. Its employment, lsat, library, faculty, big firm placement, and bar passage all hit well inside that range. That's just my opinion of course, and since my deposits are in, it's about as biased as it gets.   ;D
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Fred Hits on April 26, 2006, 01:54:45 PM
i agree with you, but i think he left W&L because he brought it up as high as it can get and emory has the potential to go higher then W&L, people are going to disagree with me but what's the point of having an opinion if no one disagrees with you  8)?

i think its because emory offers boatloads of money (in which case very smart move on his part)- also not many people here like him (tho i cant say that goes into his decisionmaking)
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 140am on April 26, 2006, 02:04:11 PM
one could say villanova is underrated because it's average rating over the last 10 years is something like 53, but it's spent the last 3-4 rankings cycles ranked in the 60's and the speculation is that is largely because of the (somewhat overstated) deterioration of its facilities.  Who knows where it would be ranked if the physical school itself was better.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Dunson II on April 27, 2006, 03:23:17 PM
Harvard
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Mr. Pink on April 27, 2006, 04:45:01 PM
Harvard


deleted dunson!

he is gone, but he is sure to return to post whore some more.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: cyberrev on April 28, 2006, 07:23:15 AM
Harvard


deleted dunson!

he is gone, but he is sure to return to post whore some more.


What is the point of post-whoring, if not to establish a prestigious post-count?  I dont understand.



perhaps he likes the challenge.

or maybe he's just nuts.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: randomthings on October 21, 2006, 12:16:09 PM
Vermont is under-ranked. (they are one of the best for environmental law)
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Denny Crane on October 21, 2006, 05:19:26 PM
Definitely agree about Vermont. 

I always considered Vanderbilt to be underrated by USNEWS, though I feel that they suffer because of their location, which attracts fewer applicants.  But truly a fantastic law school.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: StudentUVA on January 04, 2007, 09:15:06 PM
I think University of Chicago is a solid number 4 so they are a little underrated.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: ..... on February 02, 2007, 09:33:25 PM
BC is definitely underrated. Anyone who ranks BU over BC is has obviously never been to Boston.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: bamf on February 03, 2007, 07:46:48 PM
BC is definitely underrated. Anyone who ranks BU over BC is has obviously never been to Boston.

I will selfishly agree.  I think BU and BC are pretty much the same, but I think BC belongs above the other schools at 27.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: coffee girl on February 03, 2007, 08:20:23 PM
BC is definitely underrated. Anyone who ranks BU over BC is has obviously never been to Boston.

I will selfishly agree.  I think BU and BC are pretty much the same, but I think BC belongs above the other schools at 27.

University of Iowa
3.39-3.77
158-163
39% acceptance rate

BC
3.44-3.79
161-166
20% acceptance rate

and the winner is......








University of Iowa (22)   :D
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Denny Crane on February 03, 2007, 08:36:39 PM
BC is definitely underrated. Anyone who ranks BU over BC is has obviously never been to Boston.

I will selfishly agree.  I think BU and BC are pretty much the same, but I think BC belongs above the other schools at 27.

University of Iowa
3.39-3.77
158-163
39% acceptance rate

BC
3.44-3.79
161-166
20% acceptance rate

and the winner is......








University of Iowa (22)   :D

Wow, how the hell did that happen?  Are the peer ratings/judge-lawyer ratings much stronger for Iowa than BC?  I wouldn't imagine that to be the case.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: ..... on February 06, 2007, 10:43:46 PM
BC is definitely underrated. Anyone who ranks BU over BC is has obviously never been to Boston.

I will selfishly agree.  I think BU and BC are pretty much the same, but I think BC belongs above the other schools at 27.

University of Iowa
3.39-3.77
158-163
39% acceptance rate

BC
3.44-3.79
161-166
20% acceptance rate

and the winner is......








University of Iowa (22)   :D

Wow, how the hell did that happen?  Are the peer ratings/judge-lawyer ratings much stronger for Iowa than BC?  I wouldn't imagine that to be the case.

I blame Iowa corn lobbyists... plus, the midwest is badly underrepresented, and USNews doesn't like to step on toes.

And BU games the rankings more, no question. BC is very interested in admitting a diverse and interesting class, filled with decent and friendly human beings. So they're willing to accept a few folks with lower LSATs.

USNews punishes them for their idealism.

Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Denny Crane on February 07, 2007, 08:37:08 AM
BC is definitely underrated. Anyone who ranks BU over BC is has obviously never been to Boston.

I will selfishly agree.  I think BU and BC are pretty much the same, but I think BC belongs above the other schools at 27.

University of Iowa
3.39-3.77
158-163
39% acceptance rate

BC
3.44-3.79
161-166
20% acceptance rate

and the winner is......








University of Iowa (22)   :D

Wow, how the hell did that happen?  Are the peer ratings/judge-lawyer ratings much stronger for Iowa than BC?  I wouldn't imagine that to be the case.

I blame Iowa corn lobbyists... plus, the midwest is badly underrepresented, and USNews doesn't like to step on toes.

And BU games the rankings more, no question. BC is very interested in admitting a diverse and interesting class, filled with decent and friendly human beings. So they're willing to accept a few folks with lower LSATs.

USNews punishes them for their idealism.



But the question isn't why BC is ranked lower than BU, but why BC is ranked lower than Iowa when it clearly holds the advantage in GPA/LSAT and probably in starting salaries.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: coffee girl on February 07, 2007, 08:47:26 AM
Iowa's rep scores and employment stats (4 months out) are slightly higher...

Also, check out this hater:

http://althouse.blogspot.com/2004/08/is-kerry-smart-was-kerry-w_109173381381332342.html

Ha!   :D
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Denny Crane on February 07, 2007, 09:03:18 AM
Iowa's rep scores and employment stats (4 months out) are slightly higher...

Also, check out this hater:

http://althouse.blogspot.com/2004/08/is-kerry-smart-was-kerry-w_109173381381332342.html

Ha!   :D

Lots of harshness against BC. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: bamf on February 07, 2007, 05:42:23 PM
BYU is really underrated.  Look at the range of GPA and LSAT scores.  It is way higher than Georgia and UC Davis.  Since there are only two law schools to choose from in Utah (and BYU is by far the better one) then people who want to stay in Utah and who have high GPA and LSAT scores go there.  The professors are excellent, the campus in beautiful, and the tuition is a steal. 

and all you have to do to apply is have your priest certify that you will live by their honor code!...
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Paper Chaser on February 25, 2007, 12:57:45 AM
I believe West Virginia is underranked, because their law building is like 20-30 years old. No surprise the board of trustees just inked a 12 million dollar deal to build a better one.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Alamo on February 25, 2007, 07:56:32 AM
I believe West Virginia is underranked, because their law building is like 20-30 years old. No suprise te board of trustees just inked a 12 million dollar deal to build a better one.

Plus, it's the only law school in WV, which definitely helps its cause.  One of our moot courts was judged by a WVU law alum who's now on the federal district court bench, he seemed like a pretty sharp fellow.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Paper Chaser on February 25, 2007, 06:30:29 PM
The hillybilly stereotype of West Virginia might also hurt the school I believe as well, but everyone tells me that it is a great school to attend, just dont move to WV permanently.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: ..... on March 01, 2007, 12:22:02 PM
The hillybilly stereotype of West Virginia might also hurt the school I believe as well, but everyone tells me that it is a great school to attend, just dont move to WV permanently.

But to attend WVU IS to move to WV permanently. It's not as if anyone outside the top 10% has a choice in the matter.

I'm sure they could export some people to the Ozarks, but otherwise...
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Thread Judge on March 01, 2007, 01:14:17 PM
BYU is really underrated.  Look at the range of GPA and LSAT scores.  It is way higher than Georgia and UC Davis.  Since there are only two law schools to choose from in Utah (and BYU is by far the better one) then people who want to stay in Utah and who have high GPA and LSAT scores go there.  The professors are excellent, the campus in beautiful, and the tuition is a steal. 

BYU is overrated.   
1) Homogeneous faculty.  Only 3 women and 2 non-mormons?
2) Student-to-faculty ratio of 18.9, compared to Utah's 11.5
3) Provo
4) Too close to the undergrad campus and the self-appointed honor code zealots
5) Provo
6) A quarterback that cries at press conferences
7) Provo

BYU's high numbers can't be attributed to characteristics of the school itself, simply the desire for Mormons to be/stay around more Mormons.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on March 01, 2007, 04:26:57 PM
First of all high numbers do matter.  LSAT score and GPA are the most important things that an admissions board looks at.  And why would a faculty be homgeneous if it mostly consists of Mormon men?  Being a Mormon male doesn't take into account the different states they grew up in or where they when to school as undergrads or for their J.D.  Those are also factors that affect legal ideologies and world perspective. 

While Provo isn't the most exciting place in the world, the same can be said for the entire state of Utah.  The cities here, in general, are boring.  Utah has great skiing, camping, and several other out door activities which make up for its old, dingy cities.  Provo has a ton of young people and is an hour closer to California, which is also a benefit. 

The student-to-faculty ratio is better at Utah, but their facilities are old and run down.  BYU Law is much nicer.  Plus, having gone to high school in California where every class had at least 40 students in it, I wouldn't mind being in a class with 20 students and a teacher. 

As far as BYU Law being right next to BYU, that's a good thing.  BYU has one of the best undergrad librarys in the country.  Utah's law school in right next to the U.  As for the zealots, I guess that's a matter of perspective.  I really doubt that all BYU students are can be so easily categorized. 

Finally, I don't care how much a quaterback cries as long as he wins the MWC.  What was Utah's record this last season....   

BYU has great facilities, amazing faculty and smart students.  If tuition wasn't so cheap and if it wasn't affiliated with the LDS church, then it would definately be ranked a lot higher. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: bamf on March 01, 2007, 05:42:39 PM
BYU is really underrated.  Look at the range of GPA and LSAT scores.  It is way higher than Georgia and UC Davis.  Since there are only two law schools to choose from in Utah (and BYU is by far the better one) then people who want to stay in Utah and who have high GPA and LSAT scores go there.  The professors are excellent, the campus in beautiful, and the tuition is a steal. 

BYU is overrated.   
1) Homogeneous faculty.  Only 3 women and 2 non-mormons?
2) Student-to-faculty ratio of 18.9, compared to Utah's 11.5


BYU's high numbers can't be attributed to characteristics of the school itself, simply the desire for Mormons to be/stay around more Mormons.

this is all that matters.  Only 3 women?  That is just unacceptable. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Thread Judge on March 01, 2007, 09:52:16 PM
First of all high numbers do matter.  LSAT score and GPA are the most important things that an admissions board looks at. 

I didn't say that numbers didn't matter, simply that BYU's higher than ordinary numbers are easily explained by the unique Mormon culture and the members' desire to be closer to each other. 

And why would a faculty be homgeneous if it mostly consists of Mormon men?  Being a Mormon male doesn't take into account the different states they grew up in or where they when to school as undergrads or for their J.D.  Those are also factors that affect legal ideologies and world perspective. 

Relatively speaking, BYU's faculty and student body is incredibly homogeneous.  Sure, everybody comes from different states and unique backgrounds.  We're all like snowflakes!  But in comparison to other schools, which is the appropriate context in this thread, BYU is homogeneous.  White, straight Mormon men and little else.

While Provo isn't the most exciting place in the world, the same can be said for the entire state of Utah.  The cities here, in general, are boring.  Utah has great skiing, camping, and several other out door activities which make up for its old, dingy cities.  Provo has a ton of young people and is an hour closer to California, which is also a benefit. 

People in Provo sing to one tune.  Try having fun in that city if you aren't Mormon, conservative and straight.  Yes, it's beautiful, but compared to other cities, especially Salt Lake, Provo doesn't hold a candle in terms of entertainment options, political diversity and anything else.

If tuition wasn't so cheap and if it wasn't affiliated with the LDS church, then it would definately be ranked a lot higher. 

You've got to be kidding.  The LDS Church's sponsorship and the accompanying perks are the primary reasons for why it ranks so high.  By subsidizing tuition it attracts students who are otherwise tempted by higher ranking schools, and hence another reason for the high admittance numbers. 

Anyway, BYU's a fine school if that's your cup of tea, but I think it's overrated. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: CoxlessPair on March 08, 2007, 09:19:53 AM
Iowa's rep scores and employment stats (4 months out) are slightly higher...

Ha!   :D

Iowa's stats are quite 2nd tier (see me raising this issue and getting hell from the Iowa trolls: http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php/topic,74068.0.html).

As one of the posters in the above linked thread pointed out, the have bizarrely positive peer review stats and a solid faculty.

I'll never really understand this and am going to keep posting about it till they are out of the T-25 (my grassroots effort).


2-

Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: goosenesque on March 08, 2007, 09:31:06 AM
First of all high numbers do matter.  LSAT score and GPA are the most important things that an admissions board looks at. 

I didn't say that numbers didn't matter, simply that BYU's higher than ordinary numbers are easily explained by the unique Mormon culture and the members' desire to be closer to each other. 

And why would a faculty be homgeneous if it mostly consists of Mormon men?  Being a Mormon male doesn't take into account the different states they grew up in or where they when to school as undergrads or for their J.D.  Those are also factors that affect legal ideologies and world perspective. 

Relatively speaking, BYU's faculty and student body is incredibly homogeneous.  Sure, everybody comes from different states and unique backgrounds.  We're all like snowflakes!  But in comparison to other schools, which is the appropriate context in this thread, BYU is homogeneous.  White, straight Mormon men and little else.

While Provo isn't the most exciting place in the world, the same can be said for the entire state of Utah.  The cities here, in general, are boring.  Utah has great skiing, camping, and several other out door activities which make up for its old, dingy cities.  Provo has a ton of young people and is an hour closer to California, which is also a benefit. 

People in Provo sing to one tune.  Try having fun in that city if you aren't Mormon, conservative and straight.  Yes, it's beautiful, but compared to other cities, especially Salt Lake, Provo doesn't hold a candle in terms of entertainment options, political diversity and anything else.

If tuition wasn't so cheap and if it wasn't affiliated with the LDS church, then it would definately be ranked a lot higher. 

You've got to be kidding.  The LDS Church's sponsorship and the accompanying perks are the primary reasons for why it ranks so high.  By subsidizing tuition it attracts students who are otherwise tempted by higher ranking schools, and hence another reason for the high admittance numbers. 

Anyway, BYU's a fine school if that's your cup of tea, but I think it's overrated. 

TITCR!

BYU is overrated.  They're the Baylor of Utah...play a brutal admissions game just to squeeze out the best possible LSAT/GPA percentiles. 

Please let's not give people the idea that BYU is better than Davis and UGA.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Zam on March 08, 2007, 09:44:34 AM
I am doing a project for my statistics class on the number of graduates from each of the top 100 schools (as ranked by USNWR) at each of the top 50 law firms (as ranked by Vault) I am not finished yet, but from what I can see if you are looking at purely the ability to get you into a top firm Fordham is underated, Duke is way overrated, American does substantially better than schools of similar ranking.  When I am finished, I might have more to sasy.  Obviouusly I don't claim that the number of associates at top 50 law firms (well actually I am doing number of associates divided by class size in 2006) is the only thing to take into consieration when ranking schools But for me, job prospects are extremely important.

Hmm, I would be curious to see your findings when you're finished.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Kitty782 on March 08, 2007, 10:11:54 AM
I'd be curious to see them as well.  How do American and Fordham compare in your analysis?  Those are my two top choices and I'm leaning towards Fordham--mostly because of placement opportunities.  I'm from DC, though so staying here also has it's advantage if the placement between the two is comparable. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: prelaw200 on March 08, 2007, 10:23:03 AM
I am doing a project for my statistics class on the number of graduates from each of the top 100 schools (as ranked by USNWR) at each of the top 50 law firms (as ranked by Vault) I am not finished yet, but from what I can see if you are looking at purely the ability to get you into a top firm Fordham is underated, Duke is way overrated, American does substantially better than schools of similar ranking.  When I am finished, I might have more to sasy.  Obviouusly I don't claim that the number of associates at top 50 law firms (well actually I am doing number of associates divided by class size in 2006) is the only thing to take into consieration when ranking schools But for me, job prospects are extremely important.

So you are doing this but only for V50 firms?

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1168423325385
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Journeyman on March 08, 2007, 12:43:53 PM
Vandy.... I want your job if you have the time to do that
Title: Where is your research?
Post by: Burnanator on March 09, 2007, 02:46:43 AM
Only 3 women?  That is just unacceptable. 

Where on earth did you get that ridiculous number? If you performed any cursory research before lambasting BYU's law school you would have found that about 30% of the faculty is female, and another 17% are minorities (see: US News Ultimate Guide to Law Schools or www.law.byu.edu). Those numbers are significantly higher than most mountain west schools, and comparable to schools like NYU, UT, Harvard, Yale, and UCLA.

Relatively speaking, BYU's faculty and student body is incredibly homogeneous ... in comparison to other schools, which is the appropriate context in this thread, BYU is homogeneous.

Again, your assertion of homogeneity is ludicrous. Brigham Young University is world-renowned for its cultural, ethnic, and linguistic diversity. More than 80% of the school is bilingual and a vast majority of students have extensive experience abroad. BYU also has more foreign exchange students as a percentage of its total undergraduate population and a larger Muslim student community than most schools in the North America. The university plays host to world-class sporting and academic competitions and is closely studied by agencies like the State Department, the Central Intelligence Agency, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and the military for its world-class linguistics program. Its engineering, accounting, and business programs are also among the best in the nation and attract a wide array of highly talented students. 

As for the law school, about 40% of students are female and 20% are minorities, which is comparable to most Tier 1 schools. The law school’s US News diversity index score is higher than Washington University, University of Virginia, Washington & Lee, William & Mary, Utah, and many other Tier 1 schools. While most students adhere to the same religion and abstain from alcohol and other social vices, they come from all over the world, differ in their experiences and political persuasions, and contribute uniquely to the academic and social diversity of the university.

Consider these descriptive figures for the BYU law school:

- Ranked #7 by the Princeton Review for “Best Overall Academic Experience”
- Ranked #10 by the Princeton Review for “Most Competitive Students”
- Ranked #12 for highest relative clerk placement on the US Supreme Court
- Higher selectivity rating than USC, UT-Austin, GW, Notre Dame, W&M, UW, BU, W&L, and other T25 schools 
- 92% first-time bar passage rate
- 1% attrition rate
- $40,650 average debt load (almost the lowest in the country)
- 99% job placement after 9 months

The J. Reuben Clark Law School at Brigham Young University was started from scratch only 30 years ago, yet it has risen from the bottom of Tier 3 to #34 in the nation. No law school has come close to such progress. BYU will continue to rise in the rankings as admission standards rise disproportionately faster than other schools; it already out-performs “peer” schools in nearly every category. I'd bet that BYU will be in the T20 by 2025.

You might have an issue with Mormons, but you can't make a credible case against BYU’s law school without a hearty appeal to the straw man.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Burnanator on March 09, 2007, 03:27:30 AM
Please let's not give people the idea that BYU is better than Davis and UGA.

Ok, let the facts speak for themselves...

LSAT (25th-75th)
BYU: 161-166
UCD: 158-164
UGA: 158-164

GPA (25th-75th)
BYU: 3.52-3.86
UCD: 3.46-3.79
UGA: 3.28-3.80

First-Time Bar Passage Rate:
BYU: 92%
UGA: 92%
UCD: 76%

Employment (Graduation/9 Months)
BYU: 83%/99%
UGA: 76%/99%
UCD: 81%/92%

Supreme Court Placement (Last 15 Years)
BYU: 5
UGA: 2
UCD: 0

Library Resources (Subscriptions/Volumes):
BYU: 168,256/477,601
UGA: 155,178/512,418
UCD: 94,719/437,445

Princeton Review Rankings:
BYU: # 7 “Best Overall Academic Experience”
          #10 “Most Competitive Students”
UCD: #9 “Best Environment for Minority Students”
UGA: None

See a pattern?
Title: Re: Where is your research?
Post by: CoxlessPair on March 09, 2007, 10:36:32 AM
Only 3 women?  That is just unacceptable. 

Where on earth did you get that ridiculous number? If you performed any cursory research before lambasting BYU's law school you would have found that about 30% of the faculty is female, and another 17% are minorities (see: US News Ultimate Guide to Law Schools or www.law.byu.edu). Those numbers are significantly higher than most mountain west schools, and comparable to schools like NYU, UT, Harvard, Yale, and UCLA.

Relatively speaking, BYU's faculty and student body is incredibly homogeneous ... in comparison to other schools, which is the appropriate context in this thread, BYU is homogeneous.

Again, your assertion of homogeneity is ludicrous. Brigham Young University is world-renowned for its cultural, ethnic, and linguistic diversity. More than 80% of the school is bilingual and a vast majority of students have extensive experience abroad. BYU also has more foreign exchange students as a percentage of its total undergraduate population and a larger Muslim student community than most schools in the North America. The university plays host to world-class sporting and academic competitions and is closely studied by agencies like the State Department, the Central Intelligence Agency, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and the military for its world-class linguistics program. Its engineering, accounting, and business programs are also among the best in the nation and attract a wide array of highly talented students. 

As for the law school, about 40% of students are female and 20% are minorities, which is comparable to most Tier 1 schools. The law school’s US News diversity index score is higher than Washington University, University of Virginia, Washington & Lee, William & Mary, Utah, and many other Tier 1 schools. While most students adhere to the same religion and abstain from alcohol and other social vices, they come from all over the world, differ in their experiences and political persuasions, and contribute uniquely to the academic and social diversity of the university.

Consider these descriptive figures for the BYU law school:

- Ranked #7 by the Princeton Review for “Best Overall Academic Experience”
- Ranked #10 by the Princeton Review for “Most Competitive Students”
- Ranked #12 for highest relative clerk placement on the US Supreme Court
- Higher selectivity rating than USC, UT-Austin, GW, Notre Dame, W&M, UW, BU, W&L, and other T25 schools 
- 91% first-time bar passage rate
- 1% attrition rate
- $40,650 average debt load (almost the lowest in the country)
- 99% job placement after 9 months

The J. Reuben Clark Law School at Brigham Young University was started from scratch only 30 years ago, yet it has risen from the bottom of Tier 3 to #34 in the nation. No law school has come close to such progress. BYU will continue to rise in the rankings as admission standards rise disproportionately faster than other schools; it already out-performs “peer” schools in nearly every category. I'd bet that BYU will be in the T20 by 2025.

You might have an issue with Mormons, but you can't make a credible case against BYU’s law school without a hearty appeal to the straw man.


I'm not arguing the point that BYU is a solid law school.
However:
BYU will not be in the T-20. For them to get in, some other well established program will have to fall. BYU may be a solid school but it simply will not displace a Vandy or a GW.

Also, trying to cite the Princeton Review for any sort of authority makes you just look foolish.
Seriously, look at the other "rankings" they proffer. They are absurd and based on whatever law student surveys are compiled. Best Career Prospects without Columbia, GULC, etc? It's just a random smattering of T-25 schools.

Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: StraightShooter on March 09, 2007, 12:59:42 PM
You have to ignore historical data to rule out the possibility of BYU being in the T20 by 2025. BYU has risen 10 positions in the rankings in 10 years.

Frankly, I see Vanderbilt, Minnesota, Washington, Boston, and Iowa dropping as more competitive schools rise. BYU has a niche market on highly talented, highly competitive students. The admission standards are rising significantly faster than peer schools, and in 15-20 years, admissions will be as competitive as T14 schools.

BYU is already more competitive than George Washington, Notre Dame, USC, Texas, Boston U, Washington & Lee, and Washington (all T-25 schools). It’s just a matter of time until rankings catch up to their upward momentum…
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: prelaw200 on March 09, 2007, 01:50:59 PM
You have to ignore historical data to rule out the possibility of BYU being in the T20 by 2025. BYU has risen 10 positions in the rankings in 10 years.

Frankly, I see Vanderbilt, Minnesota, Washington, Boston, and Iowa dropping as more competitive schools rise. BYU has a niche market on highly talented, highly competitive students. The admission standards are rising significantly faster than peer schools, and in 15-20 years, admissions will be as competitive as T14 schools.

BYU is already more competitive than George Washington, Notre Dame, USC, Texas, Boston U, Washington & Lee, and Washington (all T-25 schools). It’s just a matter of time until rankings catch up to their upward momentum…


Just like the ranking has caught up with Fordham's admission standards?

Also, their 164 median makes them less competitive than all of the schools you mention except BU.
Title: Re: Where is your research?
Post by: Thread Judge on March 09, 2007, 02:03:32 PM
Only 3 women?  That is just unacceptable. 

Where on earth did you get that ridiculous number? If you performed any cursory research before lambasting BYU's law school you would have found that about 30% of the faculty is female, and another 17% are minorities (see: US News Ultimate Guide to Law Schools or www.law.byu.edu). Those numbers are significantly higher than most mountain west schools, and comparable to schools like NYU, UT, Harvard, Yale, and UCLA.

I should have mentioned this in my initial post, but I was looking at BYU's full-time faculty, of which only 3 are women. 

Relatively speaking, BYU's faculty and student body is incredibly homogeneous ... in comparison to other schools, which is the appropriate context in this thread, BYU is homogeneous.

Again, your assertion of homogeneity is ludicrous. Brigham Young University is world-renowned for its cultural, ethnic, and linguistic diversity. More than 80% of the school is bilingual and a vast majority of students have extensive experience abroad. BYU also has more foreign exchange students as a percentage of its total undergraduate population and a larger Muslim student community than most schools in the North America.

As for the law school, about 40% of students are female and 20% are minorities, which is comparable to most Tier 1 schools. The law school’s US News diversity index score is higher than Washington University, University of Virginia, Washington & Lee, William & Mary, Utah, and many other Tier 1 schools. While most students adhere to the same religion and abstain from alcohol and other social vices, they come from all over the world, differ in their experiences and political persuasions, and contribute uniquely to the academic and social diversity of the university.

Yes, BYU attracts Mormons from around the world, but the honor code and religious requirements necessarily preclude very important aspects of diversity including lifestyle practices, political ideas and religious thought (98% of BYU's undergrads are active Mormons).  I'm particularly eager to challenge your assertion of diversity in BYU's political spectrum, which might be one of the most important factors in a good education. 

Since 1992, 5 professors have either been fired or resigned for harboring opinions that are wholeheartedly accepted by countless others in academia (gay marriage, pro choice, etc.) but don't jive with BYU's mission.  Of course, BYU can fire whomever it wants, but I believe practices like these are detrimental to an environment truly devoted to learning.  There is very little political/thought diversity at BYU, both the undergrad and the law school.  You're lying to yourself if you think otherwise.   

BYU's a good school, but it's placement numbers only extend as far as there are Mormons. 
Title: Re: Where is your research?
Post by: CoxlessPair on March 09, 2007, 05:21:36 PM
Highly credited. It may have solid numbers (but as Prelaw accurately noted, 164 is hardly top 20 [UIUC is 166 at a mere #27]) and there is a legitimate issue with it being a fringe religious institution. I am not going to spar over the Church of LDS but for mainstream law students, a Mormon institution is a bit of a put-off.
Conversely, while a fair amount of the Top-25 schools are Catholic (BC, GULC, ND) but not Catholic in the way that BYU is Mormon.
If one is trying to decide between the negatives between various Top-25 schools (Minnesota is freezing, Iowa is in the middle of no where, GW/GULC have high COL), I think the Mormon element will be a far bigger issue for non-Mormons than weather/location/cost.

Title: Re: Where is your research?
Post by: Burnanator on March 10, 2007, 12:01:22 AM
I should have mentioned this in my initial post, but I was looking at BYU's full-time faculty, of which only 3 are women. 

Again, where did you get your numbers? Do yourself a favor and check www.law.byu.edu. There's this amazing link called "faculty and administration" where you can view faculty profiles. When you do that, you will find six full-time, female professors at BYU law school, which constitutes 19% of the full time faculty [see: Kif Augustine-Adams, Kristin Gerdy, Margaret Tarkington, Mary Hoagland, Cheryl Preston, Katherine Pullins] Moreover, 90% of the part-time faculty are women. If you knew anything about LDS culture, you would understand that it's very important to women to "be around" for their children and family members. Most of the part-time professors work half-days so they can be home when their children return from school. This is a matter of personal choice, and BYU Law is very accomodating in this regard. Really though, if anyone is concerned about the status of women at the law school, I encourage you to call one of the 15 female law professors and get their personal opinion--the phone number is (801) 422-0389. 


Yes, BYU attracts Mormons from around the world, but the honor code and religious requirements necessarily preclude very important aspects of diversity including lifestyle practices, political ideas and religious thought (98% of BYU's undergrads are active Mormons).  I'm particularly eager to challenge your assertion of diversity in BYU's political spectrum, which might be one of the most important factors in a good education. 

I'm glad to see that someone else is concerned about the more substantive definition of "diversity" [in terms of ideological and political perspective]. I agree that this is an important factor for any law school. However, I don't think there's a shortage of left-leaning professors or students at BYU Law. The university has an enormous College Democrats chapter, and the law school has student organizations like the American Constitution Society for Law and Policy, the Asian Legal Society, Latino/a Law Student Association, Minority Law Students Association, Native American Law Students Association, and Women's Law Forum. There's plenty of viewpoint diversity. Not all Mormons are political conservatives [e.g., US Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, Congressman Jim Matheson, Congressman Tom Udall, and others]. According to one prominent non-Mormon 1L at BYU, the law school doesn't lean terribly in one direction or the other: http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php/topic,81213.0.html (http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php/topic,81213.0.html).

The professors at BYU have great freedom in their teaching and academic research. The only profesors who left (that I know of) publicly denounced the LDS church, i.e., the exclusive sponsor of the university. Their departure was appropriate in each of the circumstances, but that's another conversation if you wish to pursue it. 

At any rate, I will concede that a majority of BYU law students are probably moderate or conservative, but there's ideological diversity nonetheless. If you're on a crusade to discredit schools with a disproportionately high percentage of students leaning radically in one ideological direction, you should turn your sights on schools like UC Berkeley, Lewis & Clark, and NYU...
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on March 14, 2007, 11:22:11 PM
While using the Princeton Review may not be the most scientific, at least Burn is using a wide variety of sources to make his point.  Pretty much everyone else is either giving misquoted information or using their opinions as the base of their argument. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Jets on March 20, 2007, 08:19:09 AM
You have to ignore historical data to rule out the possibility of BYU being in the T20 by 2025. BYU has risen 10 positions in the rankings in 10 years.

Frankly, I see Vanderbilt, Minnesota, Washington, Boston, and Iowa dropping as more competitive schools rise. BYU has a niche market on highly talented, highly competitive students. The admission standards are rising significantly faster than peer schools, and in 15-20 years, admissions will be as competitive as T14 schools.

BYU is already more competitive than George Washington, Notre Dame, USC, Texas, Boston U, Washington & Lee, and Washington (all T-25 schools). It’s just a matter of time until rankings catch up to their upward momentum…


Just like the ranking has caught up with Fordham's admission standards?

Also, their 164 median makes them less competitive than all of the schools you mention except BU.

Pretty sure BU's median is now a 165.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: goosenesque on March 20, 2007, 12:31:13 PM
Please let's not give people the idea that BYU is better than Davis and UGA.

Ok, let the facts speak for themselves...

LSAT (25th-75th)
BYU: 161-166
UCD: 158-164
UGA: 158-164

Big deal, I already admitted that BYU has better numbers, but this is because they play a brutal admissions game, like Baylor, just so they can boast higher percentiles.

GPA (25th-75th)
BYU: 3.52-3.86
UCD: 3.46-3.79
UGA: 3.28-3.80

See above post.  And boy, .06 higher GPA percentile is SO important.

First-Time Bar Passage Rate:
BYU: 92%
UGA: 92%
UCD: 76%

Come on now, everyone and their uncle knows that California's BAR is the hardest in the country.  This is like comparing apples with oranges.

Employment (Graduation/9 Months)
BYU: 83%/99%
UGA: 76%/99%
UCD: 81%/92%

Again, misleading because it's MUCH more difficult, but potentially rewarding, to find a job in California than it is in Utah.

Supreme Court Placement (Last 15 Years)
BYU: 5
UGA: 2
UCD: 0

This is an interesting one, but Court placement isn't something that will come in to play for 99 percent of law school students.


Library Resources (Subscriptions/Volumes):
BYU: 168,256/477,601
UGA: 155,178/512,418
UCD: 94,719/437,445

What is this, the Cooley Rankings?  Library size/volumes isn't exactly something most students know about, plus the "volumes" figures are fairly close anyway.


Princeton Review Rankings:
BYU: # 7 “Best Overall Academic Experience”
          #10 “Most Competitive Students”
UCD: #9 “Best Environment for Minority Students”
UGA: None

Since when does anyone care about the Princeton Rankings?  Since when is "Most Competitive Students" a GOOD thing?  I think that's a horrendous honor to have.

See a pattern?

God I hate getting involved in arguments like this, but your little "facts" are so misleading I had to say something.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Journeyman on March 20, 2007, 12:37:50 PM
Who wants to go to one of the most competitive law schools?   ???
Title: Re: Where is your research?
Post by: Quail! on March 20, 2007, 12:44:46 PM
I should have mentioned this in my initial post, but I was looking at BYU's full-time faculty, of which only 3 are women. 

Again, where did you get your numbers? Do yourself a favor and check www.law.byu.edu. There's this amazing link called "faculty and administration" where you can view faculty profiles. When you do that, you will find six full-time, female professors at BYU law school, which constitutes 19% of the full time faculty [see: Kif Augustine-Adams, Kristin Gerdy, Margaret Tarkington, Mary Hoagland, Cheryl Preston, Katherine Pullins] Moreover, 90% of the part-time faculty are women. If you knew anything about LDS culture, you would understand that it's very important to women to "be around" for their children and family members. Most of the part-time professors work half-days so they can be home when their children return from school. This is a matter of personal choice, and BYU Law is very accomodating in this regard. Really though, if anyone is concerned about the status of women at the law school, I encourage you to call one of the 15 female law professors and get their personal opinion--the phone number is (801) 422-0389. 


Yes, BYU attracts Mormons from around the world, but the honor code and religious requirements necessarily preclude very important aspects of diversity including lifestyle practices, political ideas and religious thought (98% of BYU's undergrads are active Mormons).  I'm particularly eager to challenge your assertion of diversity in BYU's political spectrum, which might be one of the most important factors in a good education. 

I'm glad to see that someone else is concerned about the more substantive definition of "diversity" [in terms of ideological and political perspective]. I agree that this is an important factor for any law school. However, I don't think there's a shortage of left-leaning professors or students at BYU Law. The university has an enormous College Democrats chapter, and the law school has student organizations like the American Constitution Society for Law and Policy, the Asian Legal Society, Latino/a Law Student Association, Minority Law Students Association, Native American Law Students Association, and Women's Law Forum. There's plenty of viewpoint diversity. Not all Mormons are political conservatives [e.g., US Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, Congressman Jim Matheson, Congressman Tom Udall, and others]. According to one prominent non-Mormon 1L at BYU, the law school doesn't lean terribly in one direction or the other: http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php/topic,81213.0.html (http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php/topic,81213.0.html).

The professors at BYU have great freedom in their teaching and academic research. The only profesors who left (that I know of) publicly denounced the LDS church, i.e., the exclusive sponsor of the university. Their departure was appropriate in each of the circumstances, but that's another conversation if you wish to pursue it. 

At any rate, I will concede that a majority of BYU law students are probably moderate or conservative, but there's ideological diversity nonetheless. If you're on a crusade to discredit schools with a disproportionately high percentage of students leaning radically in one ideological direction, you should turn your sights on schools like UC Berkeley, Lewis & Clark, and NYU...

And what do you think would happen if a Lambda/OUTLAW or pro-choice oriented group were to consider springing up?  My vote goes with "major sh!t-show."  Couldn't that be considered denouncing the Church of LDS?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: goosenesque on March 20, 2007, 12:46:46 PM
Just look at BYU's company in the "Most Competitive Students" rankings...not exactly stellar.


 1 Baylor University       
 
 2 Whittier College     
 
 3 Roger Williams University       
 
 4 Yeshiva University       
 
 5 Thomas M. Cooley Law School       
 
 6 St. John's University       
 
 7 St. Mary's University       
 
 8 Ohio Northern University       
 
 9 Syracuse University     
 
 10 Brigham Young University
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on March 20, 2007, 02:32:43 PM
Ok, beyond the Princeton Review look at the numbers.  Those aren't misleading.  I, personally, don't even look at the Princeton Review.  BYU's numbers speak for themselves-it is under rated. 

Furthermore, even though BYU is conservative it still wouldn't allow or endorse "Catch an illegal alien" games by college Republicans.  While I don't see anything wrong with such an activity, it just goes to show that BYU isn't some mouth-foaming advocate of conservative doctrine.  Liberal schools, on the other hand, are applauded for promoting liberal ideology, even if it means muffling conservative thought. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: BYU RULES on March 22, 2007, 09:52:31 AM
I agree that BYU is underrated.  One thing US NEWS and most people don't consider is BYU's emphasis on integrity and morality. 

BYU should at least be in the top 20.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Booyakasha2 on March 22, 2007, 10:00:23 AM
What schools are underrated by the US News rankings? 

The one i end up going to.  ;D
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Quail! on March 22, 2007, 10:20:45 AM
I agree that BYU is underrated.  One thing US NEWS and most people don't consider is BYU's emphasis on integrity and morality. 

BYU should at least be in the top 20.

Don't feed the

(http://www.timewarp-toys.com/troll.jpg)

BYU Troll????

That troll is definitely breaking the honor code by virtue of immodesty
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: BYU RULES on March 22, 2007, 10:30:07 AM

That troll is definitely breaking the honor code by virtue of immodesty

I'm not a troll.  I just think BYU is underrated.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Quail! on March 22, 2007, 10:37:18 AM

That troll is definitely breaking the honor code by virtue of immodesty

I'm not a troll.  I just think BYU is underrated.

Because of its honor code though?

Every school has an honor code that sufficiently covers relevant areas - the fact that BYU's requires students to adhere to its religious beliefs whether they belong to LDS or not is totally irrelevant, and definitely discourages people from going there.

They made their own bed...
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: BYU RULES on March 22, 2007, 10:39:46 AM

That troll is definitely breaking the honor code by virtue of immodesty

I'm not a troll.  I just think BYU is underrated.

Because of its honor code though?

Every school has an honor code that sufficiently covers relevant areas - the fact that BYU's requires students to adhere to its religious beliefs whether they belong to LDS or not is totally irrelevant, and definitely discourages people from going there.

They made their own bed...

I think the honor code helps stimulate an environment good for legal education.  No hungover or stoned classmates, that's for sure. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Quail! on March 22, 2007, 10:41:59 AM

That troll is definitely breaking the honor code by virtue of immodesty

I'm not a troll.  I just think BYU is underrated.

Because of its honor code though?

Every school has an honor code that sufficiently covers relevant areas - the fact that BYU's requires students to adhere to its religious beliefs whether they belong to LDS or not is totally irrelevant, and definitely discourages people from going there.

They made their own bed...

I think the honor code helps stimulate an environment good for legal education.  No hungover or stoned classmates, that's for sure. 

Laughable.  Maybe in undergrad....maybe it helps, but more likely not.

Nobody drinking coffee/tea either probably helps too right?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: BYU RULES on March 22, 2007, 10:47:01 AM

That troll is definitely breaking the honor code by virtue of immodesty

I'm not a troll.  I just think BYU is underrated.

Because of its honor code though?

Every school has an honor code that sufficiently covers relevant areas - the fact that BYU's requires students to adhere to its religious beliefs whether they belong to LDS or not is totally irrelevant, and definitely discourages people from going there.

They made their own bed...

I think the honor code helps stimulate an environment good for legal education.  No hungover or stoned classmates, that's for sure. 

Laughable.  Maybe in undergrad....maybe it helps, but more likely not.

Nobody drinking coffee/tea either probably helps too right?

That's your opinion, but I think unnatural stimulants, like those contained in coffee and tea, are bad for learning. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Quail! on March 22, 2007, 12:21:04 PM

That troll is definitely breaking the honor code by virtue of immodesty

I'm not a troll.  I just think BYU is underrated.

Because of its honor code though?

Every school has an honor code that sufficiently covers relevant areas - the fact that BYU's requires students to adhere to its religious beliefs whether they belong to LDS or not is totally irrelevant, and definitely discourages people from going there.

They made their own bed...

I think the honor code helps stimulate an environment good for legal education.  No hungover or stoned classmates, that's for sure. 

Laughable.  Maybe in undergrad....maybe it helps, but more likely not.

Nobody drinking coffee/tea either probably helps too right?

That's your opinion, but I think unnatural stimulants, like those contained in coffee and tea, are bad for learning. 

Hence your apparent love for BYU, which is fine - different strokes...

But BYU is not underrated, and it certainly is not underrated because the honor code isn't taken into account...that's a pretty preposterous argument.


Are you Mormon, out of curiosity?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: goosenesque on March 22, 2007, 12:25:43 PM
BYU top 20??!!!??


Come on now, at least pimp your school less blatently.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: queencruella on March 22, 2007, 01:03:15 PM

That troll is definitely breaking the honor code by virtue of immodesty

I'm not a troll.  I just think BYU is underrated.

Because of its honor code though?

Every school has an honor code that sufficiently covers relevant areas - the fact that BYU's requires students to adhere to its religious beliefs whether they belong to LDS or not is totally irrelevant, and definitely discourages people from going there.

They made their own bed...

I think the honor code helps stimulate an environment good for legal education.  No hungover or stoned classmates, that's for sure. 

Laughable.  Maybe in undergrad....maybe it helps, but more likely not.

Nobody drinking coffee/tea either probably helps too right?

That's your opinion, but I think unnatural stimulants, like those contained in coffee and tea, are bad for learning. 

Um, some types of teas have been shown to help learning, actually. Plus I don't know how they are unnatural since they come from leaves and beans, but that's just me.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Quail! on March 22, 2007, 03:46:27 PM

That troll is definitely breaking the honor code by virtue of immodesty

I'm not a troll.  I just think BYU is underrated.

Because of its honor code though?

Every school has an honor code that sufficiently covers relevant areas - the fact that BYU's requires students to adhere to its religious beliefs whether they belong to LDS or not is totally irrelevant, and definitely discourages people from going there.

They made their own bed...

I think the honor code helps stimulate an environment good for legal education.  No hungover or stoned classmates, that's for sure. 

Laughable.  Maybe in undergrad....maybe it helps, but more likely not.

Nobody drinking coffee/tea either probably helps too right?

That's your opinion, but I think unnatural stimulants, like those contained in coffee and tea, are bad for learning. 

Um, some types of teas have been shown to help learning, actually. Plus I don't know how they are unnatural since they come from leaves and beans, but that's just me.

They're unnatural alright, just like sex.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: kaz2k on March 22, 2007, 06:53:19 PM
http://www.vault.com/lawschool/underrated/

Emory.  Yes!
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: BYU RULES on March 22, 2007, 06:57:50 PM

That troll is definitely breaking the honor code by virtue of immodesty

I'm not a troll.  I just think BYU is underrated.

Because of its honor code though?

Every school has an honor code that sufficiently covers relevant areas - the fact that BYU's requires students to adhere to its religious beliefs whether they belong to LDS or not is totally irrelevant, and definitely discourages people from going there.

They made their own bed...

I think the honor code helps stimulate an environment good for legal education.  No hungover or stoned classmates, that's for sure. 

Laughable.  Maybe in undergrad....maybe it helps, but more likely not.

Nobody drinking coffee/tea either probably helps too right?

That's your opinion, but I think unnatural stimulants, like those contained in coffee and tea, are bad for learning. 

Um, some types of teas have been shown to help learning, actually. Plus I don't know how they are unnatural since they come from leaves and beans, but that's just me.

They're unnatural alright, just like sex.

Just some kinds of sex.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Quail! on March 22, 2007, 06:59:34 PM

That troll is definitely breaking the honor code by virtue of immodesty

I'm not a troll.  I just think BYU is underrated.

Because of its honor code though?

Every school has an honor code that sufficiently covers relevant areas - the fact that BYU's requires students to adhere to its religious beliefs whether they belong to LDS or not is totally irrelevant, and definitely discourages people from going there.

They made their own bed...

I think the honor code helps stimulate an environment good for legal education.  No hungover or stoned classmates, that's for sure. 

Laughable.  Maybe in undergrad....maybe it helps, but more likely not.

Nobody drinking coffee/tea either probably helps too right?

That's your opinion, but I think unnatural stimulants, like those contained in coffee and tea, are bad for learning. 

Um, some types of teas have been shown to help learning, actually. Plus I don't know how they are unnatural since they come from leaves and beans, but that's just me.

They're unnatural alright, just like sex.

Just some kinds of sex.


Riiiiiight, cause I'm sure those cavemen/Neanderthals had the bonds of marriage through which to consummate their reproductive functions.

But I am totally not turning this into a theological argument.


BYU is not underrated. Period. Flame Off.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: nealric on March 22, 2007, 08:08:49 PM
FWIW, I was going over the rankings with my dad who is a hiring partner...

His first reaction to the rankings was, why on earth is BYU ranked so high?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on March 23, 2007, 12:32:36 AM
Wow, so one kid's daddy who is a hiring partner thinks BYU is ranked too high.  Then it must be true for every firm in the country. 

But this is neither here nor there.  BYU is NOT under rated because of its honor code.  It is under rated because it has great numbers, especially compared to the other schools ranked around it.  BYU might not be the best choice if you want to practice law in NYC, but then again, neither would Minnesota and it is 19th.  Look at the NUMBERS. 

Whether or not you "like" a school for what it stands for shouldn't affect the ranking of a school. 

Just because BYU has only been accredited since 1974 doesn't mean that it can't be ranked where it is.  Cardozo was accredited in 1978 at it is already 53rd.  Davis was accredited in 1968 and it is 34th. 

Again, FACTS and NUMBERS-use something to back up your argument.  Ignorance, intolerance, personal opinion, and daddy don't count. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: BYU RULES on March 23, 2007, 07:09:55 AM
Wow, so one kid's daddy who is a hiring partner thinks BYU is ranked too high.  Then it must be true for every firm in the country. 

But this is neither here nor there.  BYU is NOT under rated because of its honor code.  It is under rated because it has great numbers, especially compared to the other schools ranked around it.  BYU might not be the best choice if you want to practice law in NYC, but then again, neither would Minnesota and it is 19th.  Look at the NUMBERS. 

Whether or not you "like" a school for what it stands for shouldn't affect the ranking of a school. 

Just because BYU has only been accredited since 1974 doesn't mean that it can't be ranked where it is.  Cardozo was accredited in 1978 at it is already 53rd.  Davis was accredited in 1968 and it is 34th. 

Again, FACTS and NUMBERS-use something to back up your argument.  Ignorance, intolerance, personal opinion, and daddy don't count. 

yeah!

And yes, I'm Mormon.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: nealric on March 23, 2007, 01:04:42 PM
Quote
Wow, so one kid's daddy who is a hiring partner thinks BYU is ranked too high.  Then it must be true for every firm in the country.   

I never said or implied such a thing.

See acronym: FWIW

FWIW= For what its worth...

I was adding an incidental anecdote to the debate. You read into my statement far more that was warrented.

FWIW I think BYU is probably ranked about where it should be. It does have the plus of being the lowest ranked/easiest to get into school with SCOTUS clerks (but only because Alito likes BYU)
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: soon2beurjewlawyer on March 25, 2007, 10:42:54 PM
Many regional schools are underrated, there are teir 2 schools and low ranked schools like Brooklyn/Cardozo/American/Miami that are excellent regional schools with excellent job prospects. If you want to work in Miami you are far better off going to UMiami (77) than Uconn (43).

and if you want to work in connecticut your better off going to Uconn (43) umiami (77).  Your argument is flawed haha
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: nealric on March 27, 2007, 06:53:46 PM
just would like to add to this thread....

BYURANKINGSPWNED!
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: goosenesque on March 27, 2007, 07:09:43 PM
just would like to add to this thread....

BYURANKINGSPWNED!

Thank you for expressing my EXACT thoughts so perfectly!
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Quail! on March 27, 2007, 07:31:25 PM
just would like to add to this thread....

BYURANKINGSPWNED!

Thank you for expressing my EXACT thoughts so perfectly!

+1
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on March 28, 2007, 02:06:26 PM
Wait until you see the numbers.  BYU will have way higher numbers than the schools ranked around it. 

Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: CoxlessPair on March 28, 2007, 04:13:39 PM
*
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on March 28, 2007, 06:05:44 PM
Quote
But you will only be able to read their stats by looking into a white stovepipe hat with seer stones.

I'm not quite sure what this means, but I don't see how it applies to my point. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: CoxlessPair on March 29, 2007, 11:48:36 AM
*
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: iscoredawaitlist on March 29, 2007, 12:17:47 PM
it's not like other established religions don't have some ridiculous (at least to an outside observer) rituals in their past. A detailed look at the Catholic Church's past reveals many of these.

Mormonism seems less believable because it seems far more contemporary. It's easier to believe that regular divine intervention occurred on massive scales at some ancient point in history; it's much harder to believe that happened in 19th century America.

Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: CoxlessPair on March 29, 2007, 12:39:30 PM
*
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: nealric on March 29, 2007, 01:04:30 PM
Quote
it's not like other established religions don't have some ridiculous (at least to an outside observer) rituals in their past. A detailed look at the Catholic Church's past reveals many of these.

Sure, but you could reasonably argue that catholic rituals are either irrelivant or a perversion of the faith's core tenants. Nowhere in the bible does it say anything about confession or indulgences.

You cannot argue that the current practices of mormonism are perversions of the original faith in quite the same way.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on March 29, 2007, 01:59:56 PM
Quote
   Clearly they won't, otherwise they'd be ranked higher.  (unless you mean just some of the numbers will be higher... then make your own ranking system that drops the criteria you don't like.)

Little Human-What I'd like you to do is:

           1) Go back and read the past posts of this thread-notice that the argument that BYU is under rated is that it has higher LSAT and GPA scores than the schools it is ranked with. 
           2) Make an argument either for or against BYUs ranking, based on the LSAT and GPA scores of current law students. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on March 29, 2007, 02:08:45 PM
Quote
    Sure, but you could reasonably argue that catholic rituals are either irrelivant or a perversion of the faith's core tenants. Nowhere in the bible does it say anything about confession or indulgences.

You cannot argue that the current practices of mormonism are perversions of the original faith in quite the same way.

Are you saying this because of the Catholic Church's claim that it is the continuance of the originally established Church? 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Quail! on March 29, 2007, 02:17:10 PM
it's not like other established religions don't have some ridiculous (at least to an outside observer) rituals in their past. A detailed look at the Catholic Church's past reveals many of these.

Mormonism seems less believable because it seems far more contemporary. It's easier to believe that regular divine intervention occurred on massive scales at some ancient point in history; it's much harder to believe that happened in 19th century America.



EVERY organized religion looks ridiculous to the outside observer. We were just giving the Mormons a hard time in the past few threads. And I think looking to into a hat with special rocks to read something is especially funny.

And sometimes the inside observer as well...

Organized religion is a mess at this point in history
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: iscoredawaitlist on March 29, 2007, 03:00:30 PM
Faith is always in crisis.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: nealric on March 29, 2007, 06:02:06 PM
Quote
Faith is always in crisis.
 

Talk to keirkegaard about that one.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: nealric on March 29, 2007, 10:11:36 PM
I say you he dead!
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Burnanator on April 04, 2007, 03:57:48 PM
The USNWR rankings are among the least reliable out there. They place 40% weight on subjective "prestige" judgments that are wholly unfounded, ill-informed, regionally biased, and ultimately, self-serving. It's humorous to watch law schools in the 25-100 range shift wildly from year to year, primarily due to sample variations on the "prestige" survey. If an academic rating system like the "Political Freedom Index" varied that wildly from year to year, nobody would take it seriously...

Indeed, only naive pre-law students place great emphasis on the capricious judgments of USNWR editors.

These rankings have been denounced by virtually every law school dean in the country, most law professors, and virtually any thinking adult who does cursory research into inconsistent and unrealible evaluation mechanisms employed by USNWR and other rankings systems (http://www.lsac.org/LSAC.asp?url=lsac/deans-speak-out-rankings.asp).

If US News makes you feel better about yourself, all the power to ya. But I wouldn't based an important decision like where to attend law school on a sub-par news magazine...
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: "V" on April 04, 2007, 04:11:28 PM

Indeed, only naive pre-law students place great emphasis on the capricious judgments of USNWR editors.


And the firms that will be hiring, of course. Obviously USNEWS has problems, but at the moment it is a major running factor in schools, firms, and indeed, the entire legal market. It shouldn't, but it is. No one should base decisions entirely on it, but you'd be an idiot to ignore it altogether...


As for the original, year old topic here, Vault has listed it's top most underrated schools - seems on track to me, except U of O - I dislike them, they're OVERRATED even after dropping 30 spots...
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: bamf on April 04, 2007, 04:13:39 PM
there are a ton of overrated schools on that list
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: nealric on April 04, 2007, 06:13:40 PM
Quote
Indeed, only naive pre-law students place great emphasis on the capricious judgments of USNWR editors.

Well, them and capricious biglaw hiring partners. Not saying anyone should care about that, but some do.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: protagon on April 04, 2007, 06:57:33 PM
All this talking about capriciousness has me feeling capricious!
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: iscoredawaitlist on April 05, 2007, 07:40:53 AM
You think that Minnesota is less regional than Emory, George Washington or Notre Dame?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Vick on April 05, 2007, 08:15:42 AM
And on that note, is GW -- a formerly "national" school -- suddenly a regional TTT?  ;)

Damn!  In the space of a year I suddenly won't be able to find a job ANYWHERE but DC. :)
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Vick on April 05, 2007, 09:24:53 AM
You'll note the inclusion of "ish" after "20" in my previous comment.  There's no hard delineation where national becomes regional, but I think we can all agree it happens somewhere in 20s, no?


Of course.  I wasn't necessarily teasing you, just the rankings in general.  :)
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: philibusters on April 05, 2007, 09:25:40 AM
You'll note the inclusion of "ish" after "20" in my previous comment.  There's no hard delineation where national becomes regional, but I think we can all agree it happens somewhere in 20s, no?



NOT REALLY, its more like a continuum than a hard fall off.  A school doesn't have to be national or regional, you make it sound like an either or category, also your roots to an area are so key, some of my classmates at W&M can get Cali big law interviews pretty easy, while even if I had their grades and resume I would have no chance whatsoever, and thats because they lived there their entire life, have family there, went to school there (undergrad, other graduate), worked there if not straight out of law school and firms take them serious when they say thats where they want to work.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Captain on April 05, 2007, 09:54:14 AM
You'll note the inclusion of "ish" after "20" in my previous comment.  There's no hard delineation where national becomes regional, but I think we can all agree it happens somewhere in 20s, no?



As the SBA president at GW referred to it: George Washington is "one of the 25 schools in the top-20."
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Paper Chaser on April 05, 2007, 10:19:25 AM
Other than the HYS schools, sports has everything to do with it.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Vick on April 05, 2007, 10:26:10 AM
Other than the HYS schools, sports has everything to do with it.

Yeah.  I hear NYU's and Columbia's sports teams are stellar.

Penn State's a top six school with a great football program.

Go Joe Pa!
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: CoxlessPair on April 05, 2007, 10:46:51 AM

Penn State's a top six school with a great football program.

Go Joe Pa!

Does Berkeley have sports?  Other than frisbee?

The host the Hippie Olympics. "Where no one wins because everyone is a loser."
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: philibusters on April 05, 2007, 10:49:00 AM
Just to clarify, when you are talking about national and regional you are mainly talking about Big Law and to a lesser extent medium law in a city.  For smaller firms, especially those in small towns, the applicant's roots to the town and the quality of their resume is more important than the school's proximity to that firm. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Paper Chaser on April 07, 2007, 04:26:27 PM
I'm telling you guys now, so you can jump on the bandwagon later...WVU (West Virginia University) is vastly underrated...but I suspect the national image of this school's football team winning the national championship in 2007 will catapult it back into tier 2 status. WVU, BCS CHAMPIONS IN 2007!!!

P.S. SLATON WAS 4TH IN HEISMAN VOTING WHILE PLAYING ALMOST THE ENTIRE SEASON WITH A HURT WRIST.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: philibusters on April 07, 2007, 05:40:28 PM
I'm telling you guys now, so you can jump on the bandwagon later...WVU (West Virginia University) is vastly underrated...but I suspect the national image of this school's football team winning the national championship in 2007 will catapult it back into tier 2 status. WVU, BCS CHAMPIONS IN 2007!!!

P.S. SLATON WAS 4TH IN HEISMAN VOTING WHILE PLAYING ALMOST THE ENTIRE SEASON WITH A HURT WRIST.

Slaton would be one of the top rb's in college football if he stopped fumbling.  I love his receiving ability though.  It seemed like he had half of WVU's big passing plays, great talent, sad he got away from my Terps.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: RUMike on April 08, 2007, 08:54:11 AM
LMAOOOOOOOO....oh boy it seems you have never heard of Rutgers...I can't wait till you guys come to Piscataway...The Scarlet Knights are going to tear you a new one.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: philibusters on April 08, 2007, 09:31:14 AM
LMAOOOOOOOO....oh boy it seems you have never heard of Rutgers...I can't wait till you guys come to Piscataway...The Scarlet Knights are going to tear you a new one.

My terps also play Rugters this year, looking forward to that one.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: iscoredawaitlist on April 08, 2007, 01:19:01 PM
West Virginia is just like Virginia Tech: consistently overrated (in football)
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: philibusters on April 08, 2007, 01:30:40 PM
West Virginia is just like Virginia Tech: consistently overrated (in football)

Past couple years VT is great against inferior opponents and awful in big games.  The Sugar Bowl result this year against Georgia shocked me as I thought they were a better team than Georgia, but Georgia came on late.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: bamf on April 08, 2007, 01:31:55 PM
someone call the police ... hijack in progress...
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: RUMike on April 08, 2007, 07:28:29 PM
haha...I'm looking foward to that game too, philibusters. Hopefully I'll get to go.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Paper Chaser on April 24, 2007, 10:47:39 AM
Two words...Noel Devine. One phrase...fastest backfield in the nation. Dub V.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: RUMike on April 24, 2007, 10:58:25 AM
Rutgers has two #1 national recruits for next year. Also we still have Ray Rice. The game is in Piscataway. Your chances are minimal.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: n/a on April 24, 2007, 11:30:51 AM
Rutgers has two #1 national recruits for next year. Also we still have Ray Rice. The game is in Piscataway. Your chances are minimal.

Can you comment on the accusation that both Rutgers campuses, as well as the football field are built directly on top of landfills?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: n/a on April 24, 2007, 11:58:53 AM

Penn State's a top six school with a great football program.

Go Joe Pa!

Does Berkeley have sports?  Other than frisbee?

Berkeley = Cal = top 15 football program for the past few years (also home to Natalie Coughlin and the best rugby team in the history of America)

/troll

its surprising how many people dont realize that Cal = UC Berkeley
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Captain on April 24, 2007, 02:01:56 PM
Rutgers has two #1 national recruits for next year. Also we still have Ray Rice. The game is in Piscataway. Your chances are minimal.

Can you comment on the accusation that both Rutgers campuses, as well as the football field are built directly on top of landfills?

There are no Rutgers campuses in Staten Island, so this cannot be true.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: RUMike on April 24, 2007, 08:35:56 PM
Rutgers has two #1 national recruits for next year. Also we still have Ray Rice. The game is in Piscataway. Your chances are minimal.

Can you comment on the accusation that both Rutgers campuses, as well as the football field are built directly on top of landfills?

Are you serious? I don't what you know about NJ or Rutgers but you're seriously mistaken
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Alamo on April 25, 2007, 12:18:48 PM
Landfills can be beautiful...

http://www.virginia.org/site/description.asp?AttrID=24654
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: CoxlessPair on April 25, 2007, 12:28:50 PM
Isn't nearly all of the Chicago lakefront essentially built on a landfill?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on April 25, 2007, 06:22:17 PM
Quote
Are you serious? I don't what you know about NJ or Rutgers but you're seriously mistaken

No, TTT was right.  The entire state of NJ is one giant landfill.  At this point they don't even try to cover up the garbage.  Fact: NJ has more toxic waste dump sites than any other state (including NV). 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: lovethelaw2010 on April 25, 2007, 07:32:21 PM
Villanova's underrated I think?  I'm biased though because the reason I think that is that I'm going there.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: CoxlessPair on April 25, 2007, 07:39:54 PM
Quote
Are you serious? I don't what you know about NJ or Rutgers but you're seriously mistaken

No, TTT was right.  The entire state of NJ is one giant landfill.  At this point they don't even try to cover up the garbage.  Fact: NJ has more toxic waste dump sites than any other state (including NV). 

When you study the Dormant Commerce Clause in your 1L Con Law class, you may end up reading City of Philadelphia v. New Jersey, 437 U.S. 617 (1978). The case is basically about New Jersey being so full of garbage that the state legislature passed a statute banning any garbage coming in from out of state. Penn and NY sued b/c they liked dumping their garbage in New Jersey instead of their own landfills.

Jersey lost.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Boyce Baylor on April 25, 2007, 07:50:14 PM
Quote
Are you serious? I don't what you know about NJ or Rutgers but you're seriously mistaken

No, TTT was right.  The entire state of NJ is one giant landfill.  At this point they don't even try to cover up the garbage.  Fact: NJ has more toxic waste dump sites than any other state (including NV). 

When you study the Dormant Commerce Clause in your 1L Con Law class, you may end up reading City of Philadelphia v. New Jersey, 437 U.S. 617 (1978). The case is basically about New Jersey being so full of garbage that the state legislature passed a statute banning any garbage coming in from out of state. Penn and NY sued b/c they liked dumping their garbage in New Jersey instead of their own landfills.

Jersey lost.

Oh my beloved home state. On the plus side, we are the wealthiest or second wealthiest state in the union in any given year.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: RUMike on April 25, 2007, 09:06:41 PM
We have the highest median income of any state, the highest percentage of HS students going onto college, and the highest percentage of people with higher education.

And we don't have to pump our own gas.

I'll take my landfill, thanks.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Ravynous Elegance on April 26, 2007, 11:05:45 AM
We have the highest median income of any state, the highest percentage of HS students going onto college, and the highest percentage of people with higher education.

And we don't have to pump our own gas.

I'll take my landfill, thanks.

Are you talking about new jersey? Cuz CT def has the highest per capita income, and median family income. Fairfield county is the richest county in the country, even with bridgeport which is a ridiculously poor city (in the top ten) - though it is also the county with the most HS drinking...
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Boyce Baylor on April 26, 2007, 11:52:54 AM
We have the highest median income of any state, the highest percentage of HS students going onto college, and the highest percentage of people with higher education.

And we don't have to pump our own gas.

I'll take my landfill, thanks.

Are you talking about new jersey? Cuz CT def has the highest per capita income, and median family income. Fairfield county is the richest county in the country, even with bridgeport which is a ridiculously poor city (in the top ten) - though it is also the county with the most HS drinking...

We have swapped places for those honors several times, hence my caveat.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Ravynous Elegance on April 26, 2007, 12:12:16 PM
We have the highest median income of any state, the highest percentage of HS students going onto college, and the highest percentage of people with higher education.

And we don't have to pump our own gas.

I'll take my landfill, thanks.

Are you talking about new jersey? Cuz CT def has the highest per capita income, and median family income. Fairfield county is the richest county in the country, even with bridgeport which is a ridiculously poor city (in the top ten) - though it is also the county with the most HS drinking...

We have swapped places for those honors several times, hence my caveat.

yeah, it probably doesnt help that a lot of people in CT/NJ have summer homes in NJ/CT...
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Captain on April 26, 2007, 01:37:55 PM

Oh my beloved home state. On the plus side, we are the wealthiest or second wealthiest state in the union in any given year.


TITCAR

Pennsylvania is, outside of Philadelphia, the WORST state on the East Coast... there is NOTHING there. Same goes for New York.. the parts that aren't on an island are pretty much dead.

NJ is 100% metropolitan and exciting.

also... any dumping that might happen, probably happens in Bergen county anyway... they're pretty trashy up there.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Captain on April 26, 2007, 01:57:30 PM
yeah, it probably doesnt help that a lot of people in CT/NJ have summer homes in NJ/CT...

I have no qualm with those Connecticuttians (Connecticutters?... Tony Danzites? What do you prefer) who appreciate the glory of the Jersey Shore.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Ravynous Elegance on April 26, 2007, 02:33:16 PM
yeah, it probably doesnt help that a lot of people in CT/NJ have summer homes in NJ/CT...

I have no qualm with those Connecticuttians (Connecticutters?... Tony Danzites? What do you prefer) who appreciate the glory of the Jersey Shore.

Wasps seems to work quite well.

Wikipedia says "nutmeggers" and "yankees" are the correct terms, though Connecticuttians works for me.

Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: RUMike on April 26, 2007, 02:59:16 PM
Yeah we probably do swap a lot...considering we both have our dumps like Bridgeport or Newark, but then a lot of really rich places...and we don't have as many as New York does (though if you combined LI, Westchester, Putnam, Rockland, Orange, and Dutchess counties into a seperate state we'd have some tough competition).

Also I've heard that Bergen, Morris, and Somerset were also the richest counties in the country.

Where I live was rated #3 best place to live by Money Magazine and my town is supposedly one of the "hottest" on the East Coast but I'd have to disagree...
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Captain on April 26, 2007, 09:27:53 PM
Quote
Number of counties by state in the top 100: Colorado 10, Virginia 10, New Jersey 9, California 7, Florida 6, New York 6, Georgia 4, Maryland 4, Minnesota 4, Connecticut 3, Massachusetts 3, Michigan 3, Pennsylvania 3, Texas 3, Illinois 2, North Carolina 2, Ohio 2, Rhode Island 2, Washington 2, Wisconsin 2, Alaska 1, Alabama 1, District of Columbia 1, Indiana 1, Kansas 1, Missouri 1, Nevada 1, New Hampshire 1, New Mexico 1, Tennessee 1, Utah 1, Wyoming 1. Nineteen states do not have any counties in the top 100.

Bergen county is overrated, IMHO... but... according to Wikipedia:

BY PER CAPITA INCOME
Rank     County
5           Fairfield Cty, CT
7           Somerset Cty, NJ
10         Morris Cty, NJ
13         Hunterdon Cty, NJ
21         Bergen Cty, NJ
42         Monmouth Cty, NJ
68         Litchfield Cty, CT
70         Middlesex Cty, CT
80         Mercer Cty, NJ
92         Sussex Cty, NJ
93         Union Cty, NJ
100       Middlesex Cty, NJ

There was a similar result for Median Household Income...

As far as the states in general, CT has a higher Per Capita income than NJ and NJ has the higher Median Household Income (more soccer moms?). They are #1 and #2 in both categories...

My point: NY and Pennsylvania suck balls, and their residents only rip on NJ because they wish they could be us. Werd. Especially New Yorkers (even though I love me some NY sports).
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Ravynous Elegance on April 26, 2007, 09:56:38 PM
YAY FAIRFIELD COUNTY!!!!!


Thats where I'm from ... I live in the same town as Keith Richards... figure it out if you must...

Here's hoping I'll be able to afford to move back :)
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: RUMike on April 27, 2007, 10:59:49 AM
Monmouth clocks in at 42...not too shabby
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: CoxlessPair on April 27, 2007, 11:28:54 AM
Yeah we probably do swap a lot...considering we both have our dumps like Bridgeport or Newark, but then a lot of really rich places...and we don't have as many as New York does (though if you combined LI, Westchester, Putnam, Rockland, Orange, and Dutchess counties into a seperate state we'd have some tough competition).

Also I've heard that Bergen, Morris, and Somerset were also the richest counties in the country.

Where I live was rated #3 best place to live by Money Magazine and my town is supposedly one of the "hottest" on the East Coast but I'd have to disagree...


My parents are richer than your parents! LL Bean rocks!

NO WAY DUDE. My parents are way richer!! And Brooks Brothers rocks way harder than LL Bean!

Man, being upper-middle class is awesome.

Totally! Lets pound some Zima to celebrate.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Boyce Baylor on April 27, 2007, 11:54:06 AM
Yeah we probably do swap a lot...considering we both have our dumps like Bridgeport or Newark, but then a lot of really rich places...and we don't have as many as New York does (though if you combined LI, Westchester, Putnam, Rockland, Orange, and Dutchess counties into a seperate state we'd have some tough competition).

Also I've heard that Bergen, Morris, and Somerset were also the richest counties in the country.

Where I live was rated #3 best place to live by Money Magazine and my town is supposedly one of the "hottest" on the East Coast but I'd have to disagree...


My parents are richer than your parents! LL Bean rocks!

NO WAY DUDE. My parents are way richer!! And Brooks Brothers rocks way harder than LL Bean!

Man, being upper-middle class is awesome.

Totally! Lets pound some Zima to celebrate.

I prefer to think of myself as lower-upper class, thank you.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: RUMike on April 27, 2007, 02:04:50 PM
Yeah we probably do swap a lot...considering we both have our dumps like Bridgeport or Newark, but then a lot of really rich places...and we don't have as many as New York does (though if you combined LI, Westchester, Putnam, Rockland, Orange, and Dutchess counties into a seperate state we'd have some tough competition).

Also I've heard that Bergen, Morris, and Somerset were also the richest counties in the country.

Where I live was rated #3 best place to live by Money Magazine and my town is supposedly one of the "hottest" on the East Coast but I'd have to disagree...


My parents are richer than your parents! LL Bean rocks!

NO WAY DUDE. My parents are way richer!! And Brooks Brothers rocks way harder than LL Bean!

Man, being upper-middle class is awesome.

Totally! Lets pound some Zima to celebrate.

Actually, I'll take a Corona. No lime though, it's cliche.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: jttt on April 27, 2007, 02:06:43 PM
LLOLOLOLOL BEAN

Kill self, poor.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 01, 2007, 12:42:11 PM
The wealthiest county per capita is in California and if you look at Gross State Product, CA makes almost twice as much at NY in second place. 

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/eco_gdp-gross-state-product-current-dollars

Per capita it is a little bit different.  Of couse, we do have nearly half a million illegal aliens scampering into our state each year which doesn't help. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Ravynous Elegance on May 01, 2007, 12:57:51 PM
The wealthiest county per capita is in California and if you look at Gross State Product, CA makes almost twice as much at NY in second place. 

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/eco_gdp-gross-state-product-current-dollars

Per capita it is a little bit different.  Of couse, we do have nearly half a million illegal aliens scampering into our state each year which doesn't help. 

yeah thats based on gross state product... not personal income...
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Captain on May 01, 2007, 12:58:21 PM
The wealthiest county per capita is in California and if you look at Gross State Product, CA makes almost twice as much at NY in second place. 

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/eco_gdp-gross-state-product-current-dollars

Per capita it is a little bit different.  Of couse, we do have nearly half a million illegal aliens scampering into our state each year which doesn't help. 

Add NY/NJ/CT together because it is a giant Metro-area around NYC, and that'll correct for the fact that CA is much bigger than NY.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 01, 2007, 01:38:51 PM
Quote
   Per capita it is a little bit different.  Of couse, we do have nearly half a million illegal aliens scampering into our state each year which doesn't help. sustains our economy

They sustain the Silicon Valley?  I highly doubt that.  There are plenty of LEGAL immigrants that could take the lower paying jobs.  Just like last May 1st America has really seen the power of illegal immigrant workers. 

Besides, how do higher levels of crime, higher levels of violence, over crowding in prisons, increased gang activity, lower literacy rates, increasing applicants for government assistance programs, over crowding public schools, diverting funds with in public schools, and overwhelming/distracting of law enforcement sustain our economy? 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 01, 2007, 02:07:11 PM
• In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

• A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the bloody 18th Street Gang in California is illegal (estimated membership: 20,000); police officers say the proportion is undoubtedly much greater. The gang collaborates with the Mexican Mafia, the dominant force in California prisons, on complicated drug distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations, and is responsible for an assault or robbery every day in Los Angeles County. The gang has dramatically expanded its numbers over the last two decades by recruiting recently arrived youngsters, a vast proportion
illegal, from Central America and Mexico.

• The leadership of the Columbia Li’l Cycos gang, which uses murder and racketeering to control the drug market around L.A.’s MacArthur Park, was about 60 percent illegal in 2002, says former Assistant U.S. Attorney Luis Li. Frank "Pancho Villa" Martinez, a Mexican Mafia member and illegal alien, controlled the gang from prison, while serving time for felonious reentry following deportation.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/back704.html
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 01, 2007, 02:16:33 PM
Yes, there are lots of statistics about this.  I never said that illegal aliens are the cause of all evil in this country, although lawlessness definately doesn't make the U.S. a more democratic place to live. 

I understand that they come here to seek a better life (many do, not all-there are those who just want to use the U.S.)

Another sad little fact is that 1/4th of Guatemala's GDP is based off of remitances (money sent by Guatemelans in the U.S. and other countries back to their families). 

Finally, if they are all so proud of their countries, why don't they try and change their governments and their policies instead of coming up here and trying to force us to accomodate them. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 01, 2007, 02:18:26 PM
Quote
   the incarceration rate for immigrants was just one-fifth the rate for the population as a whole

Yes, legal immigrants.  I am talking about ILLEGAL ones.  I encourage legal immigration. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 01, 2007, 02:21:56 PM
No flame, just an honest opinion.  Why aren't their marches and protests in the streets of Mexico or Nicaragua demanding less gov't corruption, greater civil rights, etc.?  Just because the statistics show that you are wrong, doesn't mean that you have to call names and run. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 01, 2007, 02:24:34 PM
In Minnesota, illegal immigrants and their children cost the educational system an estimated $118-$157 million extra dollars.  Can you imagine what those numbers are in California where class sizes are already swollen and schools under funded? 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 01, 2007, 02:26:04 PM
And how do you know that people don't come here to the U.S. to use the system?  I have spoken with many who have admitted the same.  They aren't horrible people and they don't represent the entire population, but to pretend that such people don't exist is naive and foolish. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 01, 2007, 02:26:46 PM
Quote
   good day, sir.

And a good day to you.  I'm sorry that the truth was so difficult to swollow. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: JM26 on May 01, 2007, 02:28:23 PM
Yes, there are lots of statistics about this.  I never said that illegal aliens are the cause of all evil in this country, although lawlessness definately doesn't make the U.S. a more democratic place to live. 

I understand that they come here to seek a better life (many do, not all-there are those who just want to use the U.S.)

Another sad little fact is that 1/4th of Guatemala's GDP is based off of remitances (money sent by Guatemelans in the U.S. and other countries back to their families). 

Finally, if they are all so proud of their countries, why don't they try and change their governments and their policies instead of coming up here and trying to force us to accomodate them. 


There are huge percentage of people who agree w/you. I live in the south and when I walk around a store I get the worst looks (I'm not latino but I'm told I look like one)and comments. CAL may call it a flame but I know too many people who have this point of view.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: JM26 on May 01, 2007, 02:36:36 PM

It shows that there are people who agree with the statement. carry on. I was just checking to see the underrated schools.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 01, 2007, 02:38:26 PM
Border security will reduce illegal immigration which will reduce crime (not to mention save the lives of hundreds who die crossing the border every year.  It is a pretty simple chain of thought. 


Quote
2. Yes, they come here for a better life. No one is going to move to another country just to screw them over. Don't be ridiculous.
You obviously misunderstood.  They didn't come here just to screw over the United States, but to take advantage of its abundance.  I have met several who trash their apartments and could careless-why?  It isn't their property and it isn't their problem.  They are in the U.S. for a few years to make a ton of money and then they want to go back to their country.  Unfortunately, they don't understand how expensive the U.S. is and they get stuck here for MANY more years than they had anticipated.  Those are two very different concepts.  Try reading more closely. 

Quote
  I understand that they come here to seek a better life (many do, not all-there are those who just want to use the U.S.)


Maybe you should read all of my post next time so I don't have to quote myself.

My other comments are not irrelevant, they are statistics WHICH YOU ASKED FOR. 

http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_illegal_alien.html

Here is the Minnesota link:  http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:vL_95FeshPgJ:www.state.mn.us/mn/externalDocs/Administration/Report_The_Impact_of_Illegal_Immigration_on_Minnesota_120805035315_Illegal%2520Immigration%2520Brief%252026.pdf+Illegal+immigrant+prison+statistics&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=9&gl=us
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 01, 2007, 02:45:31 PM
I don't see why you are struggling to understand points that others are making.  These aren't difficult concepts we are discussing. 
 

And I did think-if you had read of all my posts, then you will see that I was only speaking about a small part of the population that are here to "take advantage" of the system. This means that they ARE NOT trying to bring down the U.S., but are seeking their own self interests as the expense of others. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 01, 2007, 02:50:42 PM
Quote
  you never showed that reducing illegal immigration reduces crime

One third of prisoners are illegal aliens, yet they make up MUCH less than one third of the general population.  There is a greater tendency towards crime among illegal aliens.  WHAT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?  Significantly decreasing illegal immigration will help to reduce crime. 

Quote
Great.  Make them legal and your argument goes poof.

Ha ha, this is true.  Unfortunately that doesn't reduce crime, it just perverts statistics.  Besides if we made them all legal, would that stop illegal immigration and the problems associated with it? 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 01, 2007, 02:57:18 PM
Quote
  As opposed to you

The difference is that i don't break the law when I am out trying to improve my life.  I don't have to steal someone's identity to gain employment (SS number), use government resources paid for by citizens of another country to help out fellow citizens who are struggling, and I don't try to force another to change their system and laws to accomodate me. 

So YES, there is a BIG difference.  I work legally with in the established system to improve my life.  I don't cheat the system or break the rules (which hurts others) for my own benefit. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 01, 2007, 03:01:26 PM
Quote
In 2005, I paid exactly zero dollars to both my state of residence and the federal government.  That's right; they gave me refunds for every penny I paid in taxes (except sales taxes and such, which anyone who buys stuff in my state would be paying).

Meanwhile I received benefit from both state and federal programs.

Connect the dots. 

Exactly!  This is a great system.  And one day when you (and myself included) have good jobs and are out of college, then we will be paying taxes into the system, which will be used to help other college students.  We maybe taking more than we are giving now, but that will change.  NOT so with illegal aliens. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: queencruella on May 01, 2007, 03:01:42 PM
Quote
  you never showed that reducing illegal immigration reduces crime

One third of prisoners are illegal aliens, yet they make up MUCH less than one third of the general population.  There is a greater tendency towards crime among illegal aliens.  WHAT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?  Significantly decreasing illegal immigration will help to reduce crime. 

a) you never stated this before.
b) link?

People who are functionally illiterate make up less than 2/3 of the population, yet that's what percentage of the prison population they take up. It has more to do with economics and ability to navigate the system than anything else- not necessarily that a certain group is more inclined toward criminal behavior.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 01, 2007, 03:03:48 PM
And my parents (who were once very poor and now are well off) were never on welfare.  They have paid more into the system then they ever used and that I will probably use.  The system is a huge cycle.  It isn't perfect, but it is pretty fair.  Illegal immigration undermines this system. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 01, 2007, 03:06:57 PM
Ha, right.  This just sounds like your way of weasling out of an argument that you cannot support.  I have several family emembers of diverse racial backgrounds whom I love very much.  Playing the race card shows your lack of intellectual ability. By the way, my family members all came here legally. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 01, 2007, 03:12:29 PM
Quote
  (i.e. you haven't connected the dots.)

The statistics speak for themselves and my argument makes perfect sense.  Your lack of willingness to engage in any sort of intellectual exchange (i.e. you have made up your mind and all the evidence and argument in the world won't change it-which is the same mind set of radical groups who think little yet speak much) has made this argument a waste of time. 

I am willing to change my opinion about anything if I find the evidence to back up such a move. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 01, 2007, 03:17:23 PM
Quote
   Why is it different when you get benefits and aren't paying taxes than when immigrants do the same thing?

Either you mistyped or you still don't understand what we are talking about.  I support immigrants.  They are vital to the growth of this nation.  However, there are frameworks set up which every person must endure.  Illegal immigrants break rules and show disrespect and disregard for our rules when they don't follow the proper and legal procedures in coming to the U.S.  Legal immigrants are entitled to the same benefits.  So, in answer to your question, there is no difference. 

With illegal immigrants, it is an entirely different situation. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 01, 2007, 03:19:48 PM
Quote
"there's this one gang in LA that has an illegal immigrant leader.   

Are you even reading the links that I send or the comments I post?  I really don't think that you are.  If you aren't going to, then what is the purpose of talking with you?  READ ALL OF IT. Don't pick and choose. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 01, 2007, 03:21:52 PM
#  Illegal immigration costs the taxpayers of California $10.5 billion a year for education, health care, and incarceration.
# Illegal aliens constitute 15 percent of our state’s school population.
# Between 1993 and 2003, 60 California hospitals were forced to close from the financial burden of providing free health care for uninsured illegal aliens.
# Illegal immigrants who enroll in the University of California system are charged in-state tuition.
# Each year the Border Patrol makes more than a million apprehensions of persons unlawfully crossing U.S. borders to work and to receive public assistance, often with the aid of fraudulent documents. Such entry is a misdemeanor, and if repeated becomes punishable as a felony.
# Illegal aliens from Central America have been allowed to remain in the United States so long that their homelands have grown dependent on the billions of dollars a year they send home in remittances.
# 300,000 people who have been ordered deported are still in the country because their deportation orders were not enforced.
# Census Bureau estimates say 115,000 people from terrorist-sponsoring Middle Eastern nations live in the United States illegally.
# Some illegal aliens from terrorist nations pay as much as $50,000 each to be smuggled into our country.
# Approximately one-third of all foreign-born U.S. residents are illegal aliens.
# Over half of all Mexicans living in the United States are here illegally.
# In the last decade, 80 to 85 percent of the flow of Mexican immigrants has been illegal.

http://www.capsweb.org/facts/immigration.html#legal_facts
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 01, 2007, 03:23:32 PM
The violent MS-13 -- or Mara Salvatrucha -- street gang is following the migratory routes of illegal aliens across the country, FBI officials say, calling the Salvadoran gang the new American mafia.

http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impacts_of_illegal_immigration_gangs.html
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 01, 2007, 03:25:18 PM
Quote
  The first known contraceptive was crocodile dung, used by Egyptians in 2000 B.C. 

In High School they said that the Egyptians first used little, smooth rocks. Either way props to the Egyptians for their discovery. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 01, 2007, 03:27:38 PM
Fact: 60 hospitals were forced to close. 

Lots of random facts about random things, versus lots of facts and statistics dealing with the negative consequences of illegal immigration.  Good job, you got me. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 01, 2007, 03:29:44 PM
Quote
# Illegal aliens cost the federal government $10 billion more annually than they pay in taxes.  (source: Center for Immigration Studies)
# Taxpayers pay $750 million annually to house the 18,000 illegal aliens in California prisons.
(source: US Govt. Accounting Office)

Again more facts and numbers.  You have yet to show anything contrary.  You don't even have an argument.  You just say that I'm wrong, but you can't even say about what. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 01, 2007, 03:30:57 PM
Quote
::picks (nose) and chews::

That explains a lot, actually. 

Have a good day. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: nealric on May 05, 2007, 04:08:01 PM
Quote
.  Why aren't their marches and protests in the streets of Mexico or Nicaragua demanding less gov't corruption, greater civil rights, etc.? 

I know I am arriving late to the party but i had to take issue with this one...

Ever been to Mexico or Nicaragua? Do you speak Spanish? Have you ever talked to these immigrants about their reasons for leaving? If the answer is no STFU.

There are protests ALL THE TIME in Latin America. Many times protests happen despite police brutality far exceeding anything that has happened in the U.S. Change does happen and the protests can be effective (see the zapatistas). However, I think you fail to understand what people there are up against. They would like nothing else in the world than to make their home country a perfect place to live. It was easy/reasonable to do, it would be done already.

Here is an analogy:
Say someone was born in South Central L.A. Would you tell them not to move to Orange County because they should be fixing South Central instead?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 05, 2007, 05:16:41 PM
I have been to Mexico, I do speak fluent Spanish, and I spent several years doing volunteer work with Latin American people (which led to many conversations).  So my answer is YES.

Your analogy about L.A. and Orange County is pretty ridiculous-in fact they are nowhere near the same.  It isn't illegal to move to Orange County, it is to move to the U.S. without documentation. 

There may me protests in Latin American countries, but NOT all of the time (nice try).  Even if we open up our borders and let everyone in who wants to come, that won't end poverty in those countries.  If anything it will prolong the reign of corrupt governments.  These governments encourage the poor to emigrate to America, where they make money and send it back to their families.  This money gets put back into the system (taxes, basic necessities, bribes), which ends up in the pockets corrupt officials.  1/4 of Guatemala's GDP comes from money sent back from Guatemalans working outside the country.


And for the record, most Latin Americans that I spoke with would much rather have stayed in their country.  Coming to the U.S. to work in difficult jobs and being taken advantage of, while often having to live in inadequate housing wasn't their idea of a good time.  They left because there are opportunities here.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: nealric on May 05, 2007, 07:13:48 PM
I was responding to one specific statement.

Your answer was assuming views based on that response that I may or may not have.

The south central to oc makes sense only within the specific context of your statement that they should just try to improve their country instead of coming here.


My personal view is that illegal immigration is a symptom rather than a cause. It is an almost inevitable consequence of historical/economic factors coupled with current policy. Want to make illegal immigration disappear almost entirely? Its easy- just grant green cards quickly to everyone who applies. I'm not advocating that as a solution- just showing how the policies of the U.S. affect the situation far more than the immigrants themselves.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: iscoredawaitlist on May 11, 2007, 07:08:19 AM
I have been to Mexico, I do speak fluent Spanish, and I spent several years doing volunteer work with Latin American people (which led to many conversations).  So my answer is YES.

Your analogy about L.A. and Orange County is pretty ridiculous-in fact they are nowhere near the same.  It isn't illegal to move to Orange County, it is to move to the U.S. without documentation. 

There may me protests in Latin American countries, but NOT all of the time (nice try).  Even if we open up our borders and let everyone in who wants to come, that won't end poverty in those countries.  If anything it will prolong the reign of corrupt governments.  These governments encourage the poor to emigrate to America, where they make money and send it back to their families.  This money gets put back into the system (taxes, basic necessities, bribes), which ends up in the pockets corrupt officials.  1/4 of Guatemala's GDP comes from money sent back from Guatemalans working outside the country.


And for the record, most Latin Americans that I spoke with would much rather have stayed in their country.  Coming to the U.S. to work in difficult jobs and being taken advantage of, while often having to live in inadequate housing wasn't their idea of a good time.  They left because there are opportunities here.


Question: Do you mean GNP? GDP is Gross Domestic Product and includes only the goods and services produced within the country.

GDP may well include ex-pat salaries, but I wasn't under the impression that it did.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 11, 2007, 10:57:30 AM
Yeah, I did mean GNP. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 11, 2007, 03:02:04 PM
"Based on estimates developed by the National Academy of Sciences for immigrants by age and education at arrival, CIS calculates the lifetime fiscal impact on government -- taxes paid minus services used -- for the average adult Mexican immigrant is a negative $55,200."

This is for a LEGAL immigrant. 

"Even after welfare reform, an estimated 34 percent of households headed by legal Mexican immigrants and 25 percent headed by illegal Mexican immigrants used at least one major welfare program, in contrast to 15 percent of native households."

25% of household headed by illegals!  That is huge.  I don't see how in-state tuition or illegal immigration can be justified, especially with the pathetic argument that they put more back into the society than they take out. 

"Almost two-thirds of adult Mexican immigrants have not completed high school, compared to fewer than one in 10 natives." 

If that is the case for legal immigrants (who could afford to go through the process), then what do you think the statistics would be for illegal immigrants? 

"The Mexican government supports an illegal alien amnesty..."

Of course it does!  They are getting rid of the uneducated and unemployed.  If they are in the U.S. then they are somebody else's problem and less resources have to be spent on them.  AND let's not forget the money that they are sending BACK to Mexico from the U.S. 

"The money they send home to Mexico -- $2.5 billion to $3.9 billion -- is equal to about half the direct foreign investment in Mexico." 

So, not only does the Mexican government get rid of the uneducated and unemployed, but they are encouraged to enter the U.S. illegally.  Once there, the Mexican government knows they will send BILLIONS of dollars back to Mexico.  That money goes into the system and ends up where!?  In the pockets of corrupt Mexican officials-police, judges, city leaders, state leaders, and federal leaders. 

The problem is not with the U.S., it is with Mexico.  There is NEVER going to be a change in Mexico and an end to poverty in Mexico, until there are some major reforms.  As long as the burden of employing Mexico's poor is continually pawned off on the U.S., Mexican leaders will not be held accountable. 

http://www.ncpa.org/pd/immigrat/pd082901e.html
http://www.ncpa.org/pd/immigrat/pdimm/pdimm11.html
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 11, 2007, 08:21:57 PM
Wow, did you even try to understand what my point was?  Did you even see the other statistics?  Have you read any of the other posts on here? 

Poor American citizens are CITIZENS of our country and we have the obligation to take care of them.  Since when did it become our responsibility to provide welfare to citizens of other countries? Just because we take care of the AMERICAN poor, doesn't mean that have to (or even should) take care of the poor from other countries-especially those who broke the law and came to our country illegally. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: nealric on May 11, 2007, 11:36:09 PM
I guess it depends on your own sense of personal identity.

Personally, I have a very weak sense of national identity. I feel the same sense of obligation to a poor person in Mexico as a poor person here in the U.S. Most of the anti-immigrant crowd feels a much stronger sense of national identity, so the idea of having to support international poverty to some degree is much more repugnant.

I fully understand we cannot put the whole world on wellfare- just explaining where the differing viewpoints hinge.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 12, 2007, 01:47:13 PM
The U.S. provides more aid than any other country (unfortunately it is abused by many countries).  I am in support of helping other countries, however when it comes to the American welfare system-it is for Americans.  I think we have enough poor and problems in our own country to take care of and our domestic welfare system is already terribly under funded.  Domestically, Americans are our first priority. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: bamf on May 12, 2007, 01:51:05 PM
The U.S. provides more aid than any other country

uh huh, and its the SMALLEST percentage of GDP of any developed nation.  And you want to know why the money gets misused?  Because WE give it to the wrong people.
I like the US, but please ... foreign aid is not the place to try to point out our nation's strengths.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 12, 2007, 02:08:42 PM
If you had read ANY of this thread, then you'd see that I am comparing welfare used by illegal immigrants within the U.S., to the welfare given to people outside this country.  We give aid to other countries to help them, and we have our OWN welfare system for OUR OWN citizens.  Our domestic system should not be used by those illegally in our country.  (I SAID ALL OF THIS ALREADY)

And besides, even if it is the smallest compared to GDP, it is still more than everyone else.  65% of NATO aid to Darfur came from the U.S. 

And who else are we supposed to give it to?  When we give it directly to the people, the government or local warlords steal it.  When we give it to the government to distribute, then they misuse it.  Are you saying that we should stop all aid because it might end up in the hands of the corrupt?  Then you'd be complaining that the U.S. doesn't give any aid. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: bamf on May 12, 2007, 02:23:31 PM
If you had read ANY of this thread, then you'd see that I am comparing welfare used by illegal immigrants within the U.S., to the welfare given to people outside this country.  We give aid to other countries to help them, and we have our OWN welfare system for OUR OWN citizens.  Our domestic system should not be used by those illegally in our country.  (I SAID ALL OF THIS ALREADY)

And besides, even if it is the smallest compared to GDP, it is still more than everyone else.  65% of NATO aid to Darfur came from the U.S. 

And who else are we supposed to give it to?  When we give it directly to the people, the government or local warlords steal it.  When we give it to the government to distribute, then they misuse it.  Are you saying that we should stop all aid because it might end up in the hands of the corrupt?  Then you'd be complaining that the U.S. doesn't give any aid. 

yeah, I don't care about your argument.  I just really hate when people cite the statistic that we give more money than any other country.  The point is, we don't give as much as we could.  We don't get bragging rights.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: DDBY on May 14, 2007, 03:27:51 PM
If you had read ANY of this thread, then you'd see that I am comparing welfare used by illegal immigrants within the U.S., to the welfare given to people outside this country.  We give aid to other countries to help them, and we have our OWN welfare system for OUR OWN citizens.  Our domestic system should not be used by those illegally in our country.  (I SAID ALL OF THIS ALREADY)

And besides, even if it is the smallest compared to GDP, it is still more than everyone else.  65% of NATO aid to Darfur came from the U.S. 

And who else are we supposed to give it to?  When we give it directly to the people, the government or local warlords steal it.  When we give it to the government to distribute, then they misuse it.  Are you saying that we should stop all aid because it might end up in the hands of the corrupt?  Then you'd be complaining that the U.S. doesn't give any aid. 

yeah, I don't care about your argument.  I just really hate when people cite the statistic that we give more money than any other country.  The point is, we don't give as much as we could.  We don't get bragging rights.
We don't give as much as we could but we don't actually have to give. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Vick on May 14, 2007, 04:51:44 PM
If you had read ANY of this thread, then you'd see that I am comparing welfare used by illegal immigrants within the U.S., to the welfare given to people outside this country.  We give aid to other countries to help them, and we have our OWN welfare system for OUR OWN citizens.  Our domestic system should not be used by those illegally in our country.  (I SAID ALL OF THIS ALREADY)

And besides, even if it is the smallest compared to GDP, it is still more than everyone else.  65% of NATO aid to Darfur came from the U.S. 

And who else are we supposed to give it to?  When we give it directly to the people, the government or local warlords steal it.  When we give it to the government to distribute, then they misuse it.  Are you saying that we should stop all aid because it might end up in the hands of the corrupt?  Then you'd be complaining that the U.S. doesn't give any aid. 

yeah, I don't care about your argument.  I just really hate when people cite the statistic that we give more money than any other country.  The point is, we don't give as much as we could.  We don't get bragging rights.
We don't give as much as we could but we don't actually have to give

That's debatable and probably not true.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: nealric on May 14, 2007, 04:55:02 PM
Keep in mind that foreign aid is not just charity- it is also a political tool. Very often, it comes with terms and conditions.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Ersatz on May 14, 2007, 05:51:02 PM
If you had read ANY of this thread, then you'd see that I am comparing welfare used by illegal immigrants within the U.S., to the welfare given to people outside this country.  We give aid to other countries to help them, and we have our OWN welfare system for OUR OWN citizens.  Our domestic system should not be used by those illegally in our country.  (I SAID ALL OF THIS ALREADY)

And besides, even if it is the smallest compared to GDP, it is still more than everyone else.  65% of NATO aid to Darfur came from the U.S. 

And who else are we supposed to give it to?  When we give it directly to the people, the government or local warlords steal it.  When we give it to the government to distribute, then they misuse it.  Are you saying that we should stop all aid because it might end up in the hands of the corrupt?  Then you'd be complaining that the U.S. doesn't give any aid. 

yeah, I don't care about your argument.  I just really hate when people cite the statistic that we give more money than any other country.  The point is, we don't give as much as we could.  We don't get bragging rights.
We don't give as much as we could but we don't actually have to give. 

That's debatable and probably not true.

Why?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: nealric on May 14, 2007, 05:56:18 PM
see my post above

We give aid to get a country to do what we need it to do. Sometimes its quite necessary.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Ersatz on May 14, 2007, 06:01:20 PM
see my post above

We give aid to get a country to do what we need it to do. Sometimes its quite necessary.

Without debating the substance of the above, that's not what you said earlier. What you said was "That's debatable and probably not true" in response to "We don't give as much as we could but we don't actually have to give." Your saying that *sometimes* we have to give aid suggests that there are instances where we do not actually have to provide any aid, no?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: nealric on May 14, 2007, 06:11:41 PM
sigur said "thats debatable and probably not true" - not me.

All I did was give a reason for why we sometimes need to give aid.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Ersatz on May 14, 2007, 06:20:13 PM
Oh. Blah. Okay.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: awesomepossum on May 14, 2007, 06:27:50 PM
Sooo......what schools are underrated by US News?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: bros on May 14, 2007, 07:39:57 PM
stanford, lewis & clark, and tulane
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Ersatz on May 14, 2007, 07:56:21 PM
Stanford is properly ranked at 3.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Ersatz on May 14, 2007, 07:56:54 PM
Stanford is properly ranked at 3.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Vick on May 15, 2007, 09:59:31 AM
see my post above

We give aid to get a country to do what we need it to do. Sometimes its quite necessary.

There's that, but it might also be because morality requires it. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: bros on May 15, 2007, 10:13:37 AM
Stanford is properly ranked at 3.

it's just my personal opinion, but i think stanford should be ranked #1, unequivocally.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Ersatz on May 15, 2007, 10:19:32 AM
see my post above

We give aid to get a country to do what we need it to do. Sometimes its quite necessary.

There's that, but it might also be because morality requires it. 

Morality and politics are not a great mix.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Vick on May 15, 2007, 10:28:17 AM
see my post above

We give aid to get a country to do what we need it to do. Sometimes its quite necessary.

There's that, but it might also be because morality requires it. 

Morality and politics are not a great mix.

Politics is, or at least feigns to be morality.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Ersatz on May 15, 2007, 10:32:30 AM
see my post above

We give aid to get a country to do what we need it to do. Sometimes its quite necessary.

There's that, but it might also be because morality requires it. 

Morality and politics are not a great mix.

Politics is, or at least feigns to be morality.

Couldn't disagree more. There are certainly intersections between the two, but there are many times when the right thing to do from a political point of view is the wrong thing to do from an abstractly moral point of view.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Vick on May 15, 2007, 10:40:16 AM
see my post above

We give aid to get a country to do what we need it to do. Sometimes its quite necessary.

There's that, but it might also be because morality requires it. 

Morality and politics are not a great mix.

Politics is, or at least feigns to be morality.

Couldn't disagree more. There are certainly intersections between the two, but there are many times when the right thing to do from a political point of view is the wrong thing to do from an abstractly moral point of view.

Really?  Isn't every law, or every political action based on some moral code?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: bros on May 15, 2007, 10:43:18 AM
see my post above

We give aid to get a country to do what we need it to do. Sometimes its quite necessary.

There's that, but it might also be because morality requires it. 

Morality and politics are not a great mix.

Politics is, or at least feigns to be morality.

Couldn't disagree more. There are certainly intersections between the two, but there are many times when the right thing to do from a political point of view is the wrong thing to do from an abstractly moral point of view.

Really?  Isn't every law, or every political action based on some moral code?

no, at least not officially. that's what positivism is.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Ersatz on May 15, 2007, 10:46:12 AM
Really?  Isn't every law, or every political action based on some moral code?

Why do you conflate law and political actions?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Le Docteur De Peste on May 15, 2007, 10:56:18 AM
::stays tuned::

::grabs ye olde corn of pop::
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Vick on May 15, 2007, 10:56:41 AM
Really?  Isn't every law, or every political action based on some moral code?

Why do you conflate law and political actions?

How are we using the word "politics?"  I'm using it in the sense of law making and those people involved in the process, i.e politicians.  In that sense, the actions taken by politicians are interconnected with law.  Aren't their actions, with regard to foreign policy and national law making, based on some moral code?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: jimfoolery on May 15, 2007, 10:57:03 AM
::stays tuned::

*sees through cal*
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 15, 2007, 10:59:30 AM
::types in the third person on a regular basis::
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Vick on May 15, 2007, 10:59:57 AM
see my post above

We give aid to get a country to do what we need it to do. Sometimes its quite necessary.

There's that, but it might also be because morality requires it. 

Morality and politics are not a great mix.

Politics is, or at least feigns to be morality.

Couldn't disagree more. There are certainly intersections between the two, but there are many times when the right thing to do from a political point of view is the wrong thing to do from an abstractly moral point of view.

Really?  Isn't every law, or every political action based on some moral code?

no, at least not officially. that's what positivism is.

I don't think I understand what you're saying. There might be a few agents acting with a positivist perspective, but I think that's rare, especially in the current political climate.  And couldn't their actions be reduced to some code to live by?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: bros on May 15, 2007, 11:04:42 AM
see my post above

We give aid to get a country to do what we need it to do. Sometimes its quite necessary.

There's that, but it might also be because morality requires it. 

Morality and politics are not a great mix.

Politics is, or at least feigns to be morality.

Couldn't disagree more. There are certainly intersections between the two, but there are many times when the right thing to do from a political point of view is the wrong thing to do from an abstractly moral point of view.

Really?  Isn't every law, or every political action based on some moral code?

no, at least not officially. that's what positivism is.

I don't think I understand what you're saying. There might be a few agents acting with a positivist perspective, but I think that's rare, especially in the current political climate.  And couldn't their actions be reduced to some code to live by?

are you talking about the courts or the legislature? i think that in both arenas, positivist thinking is the rule and not the exception, even if it may appear that all legislators do what they do because they are being compelled by a set of morals.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: DDBY on May 15, 2007, 11:49:33 AM
Wow people.  was just saying:  We don't give as much as we could.  Perhaps we should.  But sharing in real life (unlike in kindergarden) is a choice.  If it is used for survival, that is still a choice.  That is the basis of free will.

Morality has nothing to do with it. The concept of morality is highly subjective (Ex: The Taliban and Women Vs. American Society and Women)

Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Roman815 on May 15, 2007, 10:21:42 PM
The University of San Diego is definitely underrated, especially this year.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 15, 2007, 10:41:13 PM
I've read all of the post about Davis and Hasting, and I am leaning towards Davis.  My question: do you think that Hastings will pass Davis in the USN next year?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Ersatz on May 16, 2007, 09:50:39 AM
I've read all of the post about Davis and Hasting, and I am leaning towards Davis.  My question: do you think that Hastings will pass Davis in the USN next year?

That's interesting - I had to look it up because I thought that Hastings was already higher than Davis. They have essentially the same LSAT / GPA scores, and I do think that Hastings is a better school if you want to practice in Bay Area - just seems like the alumni network is much larger. Don't worry too much about the difference in rankings between 36 and 34.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 16, 2007, 12:12:49 PM
Honestly, I really don't care a whole lot about USN rankings, but they are fun to talk about.  Hastings alumni network is WAY bigger.  They have 1200+ students at any given time and are MUCH older.  Davis is newer and only has 700 or so students.  Both schools have done some serious remodeling, which I think is important.  I took a tour of GW, which completely remodeled in 2003, and it was absolutely amazing. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: n/a on July 05, 2007, 08:17:08 AM
BOOOOOO!!
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: und3r3stimat3d on August 08, 2007, 11:50:56 AM
We have the highest median income of any state, the highest percentage of HS students going onto college, and the highest percentage of people with higher education.

And we don't have to pump our own gas.

I'll take my landfill, thanks.

Are you talking about new jersey? Cuz CT def has the highest per capita income, and median family income. Fairfield county is the richest county in the country, even with bridgeport which is a ridiculously poor city (in the top ten) - though it is also the county with the most HS drinking...

The wealthiest state in the country is NJ by household income, CT sometimes is. The wealthiest counties are currently Fairfax and Loudon counties in Virginia, followed by Hunterdon County in New Jersey.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on August 08, 2007, 12:02:42 PM
Not according to wikipedia (the most reputable source on-line). 
1) Marin County, CA
2) New York County (Manhattan)
3) Falls Church, VA
4) Pitkin County, CO
5) Fairfield County, VA
6) Teton County, WY

And so on...

BTW Somerset and Morris Counties in NJ are wealthier than Hunterdon. 
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: und3r3stimat3d on August 08, 2007, 09:54:45 PM
Not according to wikipedia (the most reputable source on-line). 
1) Marin County, CA
2) New York County (Manhattan)
3) Falls Church, VA
4) Pitkin County, CO
5) Fairfield County, VA
6) Teton County, WY

And so on...

BTW Somerset and Morris Counties in NJ are wealthier than Hunterdon. 

Outdated. I'm going by 2005 census data.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: und3r3stimat3d on August 08, 2007, 10:06:40 PM
Not according to wikipedia (the most reputable source on-line). 
1) Marin County, CA
2) New York County (Manhattan)
3) Falls Church, VA
4) Pitkin County, CO
5) Fairfield County, VA
6) Teton County, WY

And so on...

BTW Somerset and Morris Counties in NJ are wealthier than Hunterdon. 

Here's the census thing I was talking about. You have to combine together counties with 250K+ and less than 250K, but #1 is Loudon County, then Fairfaix, then Hunterdon, then Howard County, then Somerset, then Morris. Hunterdon actually has a pretty sizable lead (~5-10K) over the other two new jersey ones.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: philibusters on August 10, 2007, 09:15:42 PM
Not according to wikipedia (the most reputable source on-line). 
1) Marin County, CA
2) New York County (Manhattan)
3) Falls Church, VA
4) Pitkin County, CO
5) Fairfield County, VA
6) Teton County, WY

And so on...

BTW Somerset and Morris Counties in NJ are wealthier than Hunterdon. 

Wiki screwed up, as a student in VA, I can tell you its Fairfax, not Fairfield, plus I was born at Fairfax hospital, though I have never actually lived in the county.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Captain on August 22, 2007, 04:20:03 PM


Dreams only cause suffering.

Imma run for president on that line.

I'd vote for that...

YOUR DREAMS ARE CRAP, YOU ARE A COG IN THE MACHINE. LOSE ALL HOPE NOW!
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: AkhilAmar on September 02, 2007, 01:09:22 PM
I was thinking about throwing an app. to the University of Wisconsin - Madison LS; anybody on here know anything about it aside from what's on USN & LSAC.org?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Hannibal on September 06, 2007, 08:20:37 AM


Dreams only cause suffering.

Imma run for president on that line.

I'd vote for that...

YOUR DREAMS ARE CRAP, YOU ARE A COG IN THE MACHINE. LOSE ALL HOPE NOW!

Sounds like the Democratic party line. 

No, Democrats want you to believe all your dreams will come true...as long as you stay a cog in the machine.  Hope dies slowly.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: hs1046 on March 02, 2008, 05:21:18 PM
I think UH is under-ranked especially considering the legal market in Houston.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Quaildogie on March 27, 2008, 11:53:00 AM
Florida State is underrated.  It should be closer to the bottom of Tier 1 (40-49), then the top of tier 2 (55).
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: biggame on March 27, 2008, 12:02:36 PM
I like leiter's analysis in that any large school is hurt by the way usnews ranks the schools. All of the variables they use favor the small schools and their small classes.

I think vault's new rankings are better than anything the us news does. check those out. They focus everything on employment and reputation. If you haven't seen those rankings you might be a little surprised.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: philibusters on March 27, 2008, 12:56:53 PM
I like leiter's analysis in that any large school is hurt by the way usnews ranks the schools. All of the variables they use favor the small schools and their small classes.

I think vault's new rankings are better than anything the us news does. check those out. They focus everything on employment and reputation. If you haven't seen those rankings you might be a little surprised.

The assessment scores may favor large school and may the library volumes (though thats only two percent).  For example for peer assessments when new faculty rate law schools they may be thinking of famous profs and the larger a school is the more big name profs they will know. Just to clarify I am not saying as a matter of fact that this does occur, only that its a possibility.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Gitmo Jones on March 27, 2008, 12:58:09 PM
I honestly think Cooley is severely underrated I mean they have more professional librarians than anyone in the country!!!!
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: mason123 on March 27, 2008, 09:38:12 PM
Is Touro underrated?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: lovethelaw2010 on March 27, 2008, 10:23:57 PM
Pitt is now.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: sockpuppet on March 28, 2008, 02:17:56 AM
The Over-Under 2008
http://lawschoolalmanac.blogspot.com/2008/03/over-under-2008.html

Candidates for most over and underrated law schools in the US News Top 100.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: CoxlessPair on March 28, 2008, 10:32:20 AM
Is Touro underrated?

Touro is lucky to still have ABA accreditation.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: mason123 on March 28, 2008, 01:03:35 PM
Are you serious? What happened? Are you simply floating your own idea of what should be, or was there actually a threat of rescinding their ABA accreditation? Come on, be a little bit specific before suggesting something that extreme.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Captain on April 01, 2008, 04:56:21 PM
http://www.vault.com/lawschool/underrated/ (http://www.vault.com/lawschool/underrated/)
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: sockpuppet on April 01, 2008, 05:54:33 PM
Quote
http://www.vault.com/lawschool/underrated/

Quote
BYU: "Topnotch talent that is often overlooked."

That's pretty much the exact opposite of what I want to read about any prospective law school. The school I want is the one that gets: "Illiterate, unskilled dolts who all seem to wind up with plum jobs and outrageous salaries for no apparent reason."
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Captain on April 04, 2008, 10:58:29 PM
The school I want is the one that gets: "Illiterate, unskilled dolts who all seem to wind up with plum jobs and outrageous salaries for no apparent reason."
Georgetown?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: rock.it on April 05, 2008, 09:31:20 AM
Vault conducted research on the most underrated law schools. According to their results released in 2007, the top 5 most underrated schools are:

1. Emory
2. Fordham
3. Howard
4. Chicago-Kent
5. Oregon
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: El_Che on April 05, 2008, 10:04:09 AM
And the top 25, according to Vault, are:

1  Emory University School of Law
2  Fordham University School of Law
3  Howard University School of Law
4  Chicago-Kent College of Law
5  University of Oregon School of Law
6  George Mason University School of Law
7  University of Illinois College of Law
8  William and Mary Law School
9  Vanderbilt University Law School
10  University of Georgia School of Law
11  Georgia State University College of Law
12  Ohio State University College of Law
13  American University - Washington, D.C.
14  North Carolina Central University School of Law
15  Boston College Law School
16  Washington & Lee Univ School of Law
17  Case Western Reserve University School of Law
18  Washington University-St Louis School of Law
19  University of Houston Law Center
20  Lewis & Clark Law School
21  Wake Forest University School of Law
22  University of Iowa College of Law
23  Boston University School of Law
24  George Washington University Law School
25  Pepperdine University School of Law

Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Coolsportsplaya on April 05, 2008, 01:31:46 PM
Vanderbilt, WUSTL and GWU are all ranked in the top 20, yet they are still somehow underrated?
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: SteelersandGators on April 05, 2008, 03:22:18 PM
The school I want is the one that gets: "Illiterate, unskilled dolts who all seem to wind up with plum jobs and outrageous salaries for no apparent reason."
Georgetown?

Haha..beat me to it
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: Captain on April 05, 2008, 10:57:33 PM
Vault conducted research on the most underrated law schools. According to their results released in 2007, the top 5 most underrated schools are:

1. Emory
2. Fordham
3. Howard
4. Chicago-Kent
5. Oregon

Analysis: Emory, being #22 already is essentially a T14 school, but US News obviously switches our numbers with Georgetown in order to keep us off the top.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: SwampFox on January 21, 2009, 09:04:07 PM
If it hasn't been listed already in the 43+ earlier pages of posts, I would nominate Campbell University.  The last few years the school has had a bar passage rate in North Carolina of darn-close to 100%; the statistics I have list it higher than Duke.  It's hard to argue with a statistic like that; that's why you go to law school.
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: motorolalawyer on January 21, 2009, 09:47:08 PM
fordham
Title: Re: What schools are underrated by US News?
Post by: nealric on January 22, 2009, 02:46:28 PM
Quote
  The school I want is the one that gets: "Illiterate, unskilled dolts who all seem to wind up with plum jobs and outrageous salaries for no apparent reason."
Georgetown?

Haha..beat me to it

Unskilled dolt FTW!