Law School Discussion

Specific Groups => Minority and Non-Traditional Law Students => Topic started by: Barbell on January 17, 2005, 05:06:18 PM

Title: Admissions Dilemma Or Why AA Won't Work Or White IQ is 100, Black IQ is 85
Post by: Barbell on January 17, 2005, 05:06:18 PM
It's time to consider that the white bogeyman is NOT responsible for the continuing poor performance of blacks in school.

Consider reading this excellent article:  http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/testing.htm


Interesting facts:

* Black children from the wealthiest families have mean SAT scores lower than white children from families below the poverty line.

*  60% of blacks score below 145 on the LSAT.

*  Black children of parents with graduate degrees have lower SAT scores than white children of parents with a high-school diploma or less.


From the article:

Need a Doctor?
   Medical school admission is uncommonly competitive, there being many more applicants than slots. The competition is so intense that if black applicants were held to the same admission standards as whites and Asians, we would turn out almost no black physicians.

   We now have a double standard for admission to medical school brought about by affirmative action. As a result, two tiers of American physicians have emerged separated by race and ability.

 We have seen that law students admitted under affirmative action do not measure up to their white and Asian peers as law-school graduates. Can we say the same for doctors? We will quantify the performance gap for physicians.

   A benchmark for medical competence is the National Board of Medical Examiners (NBME) Exam Part I. Every medical student in the US must pass it to become a physician. Students take the exam two years before graduation. It is one of several ways the profession keeps itself honest. The most comprehensive study of NBME pass rates was published in 1994 by Beth Dawson et al (JAMA 1994 272:9 674-9). The authors examined the performance of every medical student in the US taking the June exam for the first time over the years 1986, 1987 and 1988. Dawson and her colleagues found that white medical students passed the NBME test at a rate of 87.7 percent and blacks at 48.9 percent. Again, using methods described in Appendix A, we found these pass rates equivalent to a black-white mean difference of 1.19 SD. Mean differences for the bar and NBME exams are conspicuously similar. The one-plus SD gap does not yield easily.

   Notably, when Dawson's study looked at entering students with similar academic credentials, the pass rates on the NBME exam were independent of race, pointing an accusing finger directly at affirmative action. For all its good intentions, affirmative action has created two levels of competence in American medicine, separated by a bit more than one standard deviation. When you are wheeled into the ER at 2:00 a.m., if you pray, pray that the black doctor who greets you entered medical school through the front door.
Title: Re: Admissions Dilemma Or Why AA Won't Work Or White IQ is 100, Black IQ is 85
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on January 17, 2005, 05:10:55 PM
well well well, the Master Race speaks
Title: Re: Admissions Dilemma Or Why AA Won't Work Or White IQ is 100, Black IQ is 85
Post by: Infoolio on January 17, 2005, 05:11:19 PM
   Notably, when Dawson's study looked at entering students with similar academic credentials, the pass rates on the NBME exam were independent of race, pointing an accusing finger directly at affirmative action. For all its good intentions, affirmative action has created two levels of competence in American medicine, separated by a bit more than one standard deviation. When you are wheeled into the ER at 2:00 a.m., if you pray, pray that the black doctor who greets you entered medical school through the front door.

First post huh?  ::)

This is completely irrelevant to the forum's intended content.   :-\
Title: Re: Admissions Dilemma Or Why AA Won't Work Or White IQ is 100, Black IQ is 85
Post by: shiveringjenny on January 17, 2005, 05:16:51 PM
Not sure if this thread is going to last that long, as it is obviously flamebait, but just posting here to get it on unread replies.
Title: Re: Admissions Dilemma Or Why AA Won't Work Or White IQ is 100, Black IQ is 85
Post by: goodadvice (account resigned) on January 17, 2005, 05:35:43 PM
This is obviously a regular poster who created a new name for this thread. I would love to know the real identity of this poster. Who do you guys think it is?
Title: Re: Admissions Dilemma Or Why AA Won't Work Or White IQ is 100, Black IQ is 85
Post by: mivida2k on January 17, 2005, 06:14:18 PM
Yeah. Poor thing.  Some "White" Folks are Obsessed with Af-Ams.  GET A LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Admissions Dilemma Or Why AA Won't Work Or White IQ is 100, Black IQ is 85
Post by: maricutie on January 18, 2005, 06:34:24 AM
Not sure if this thread is going to last that long, as it is obviously flamebait, but just posting here to get it on unread replies.

Likewise.

Seriously, though, a tip: post under your real name. It's not worth the time to answer the same questions and enter into the same debates again if we don't have an idea of who you really are on this board.
Title: Re: Admissions Dilemma Or Why AA Won't Work Or White IQ is 100, Black IQ is 85
Post by: TheZooker on January 18, 2005, 07:26:27 AM
I don't mean to perpetuate this thread, but I've read up on this, and this article is a non-issue.

Due to AA, we have incoming black students with lesser credentials.  You guessed it, probably on the order of 1.1 SD.  It has been PROVEN that minority students with similar incoming credentials perform just as well as white students, at least in law school.  So this underperformance on the Medical exam is easily traced back to pre-existing scholastic deficiencies.  And where do those most likely come from?  Severely disadvantaged minorities coming from grossly inadequate, underfunded schools.

Look, there's clearly no easy answer, but this article is a gross oversimplification.
Title: Re: Admissions Dilemma Or Why AA Won't Work Or White IQ is 100, Black IQ is 85
Post by: WoeIsMe on January 18, 2005, 07:33:15 AM
the other thing is these scores are always being adjusted to represent the population at a given time.  RAW intelligence has been increasing, just as I'm  sure you'll all aware has the LSAT ability of the population, yet IQ is always normalized to 100, and LSAT to the best of my knowledge is normalized to 150.  The point is certainly possible for the current group average of the black population to equal the group average of the white population several years in the past.  I'm not saying that is what is happening, given that 1 standard deviation is significant, but given the change in social climate since the civil rights and technology the expected lag in an underperforming population cannot be expected to change overnight.

In this case, the derivative rate of change in group averages over time would be a more useful gauge of progress or lack thereof.
Title: Re: Admissions Dilemma Or Why AA Won't Work Or White IQ is 100, Black IQ is 85
Post by: ElizaB on January 18, 2005, 08:53:58 AM
It's time to consider that the white bogeyman is NOT responsible for the continuing poor performance of blacks in school.

Consider reading this excellent article:  http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/testing.htm


Interesting facts:

* Black children from the wealthiest families have mean SAT scores lower than white children from families below the poverty line.

*  60% of blacks score below 145 on the LSAT.

*  Black children of parents with graduate degrees have lower SAT scores than white children of parents with a high-school diploma or less.


From the article:

Need a Doctor?
   Medical school admission is uncommonly competitive, there being many more applicants than slots. The competition is so intense that if black applicants were held to the same admission standards as whites and Asians, we would turn out almost no black physicians.

   We now have a double standard for admission to medical school brought about by affirmative action. As a result, two tiers of American physicians have emerged separated by race and ability.

 We have seen that law students admitted under affirmative action do not measure up to their white and Asian peers as law-school graduates. Can we say the same for doctors? We will quantify the performance gap for physicians.

   A benchmark for medical competence is the National Board of Medical Examiners (NBME) Exam Part I. Every medical student in the US must pass it to become a physician. Students take the exam two years before graduation. It is one of several ways the profession keeps itself honest. The most comprehensive study of NBME pass rates was published in 1994 by Beth Dawson et al (JAMA 1994 272:9 674-9). The authors examined the performance of every medical student in the US taking the June exam for the first time over the years 1986, 1987 and 1988. Dawson and her colleagues found that white medical students passed the NBME test at a rate of 87.7 percent and blacks at 48.9 percent. Again, using methods described in Appendix A, we found these pass rates equivalent to a black-white mean difference of 1.19 SD. Mean differences for the bar and NBME exams are conspicuously similar. The one-plus SD gap does not yield easily.

   Notably, when Dawson's study looked at entering students with similar academic credentials, the pass rates on the NBME exam were independent of race, pointing an accusing finger directly at affirmative action. For all its good intentions, affirmative action has created two levels of competence in American medicine, separated by a bit more than one standard deviation. When you are wheeled into the ER at 2:00 a.m., if you pray, pray that the black doctor who greets you entered medical school through the front door.

Okay...I would like to point out a huge flaw in this argument.  This argument is comparing apples and oranges.  The USMLE (or what you are calling the NBME exam) is not only given to US grads.  A majority of the non-whites that are taking the USMLE are not educated in the US.  They are doctors from other countries coming to the US for their residencies.  Many of them don't even have strong English skills...which is a huge disadvantage on this test.  Or they may have even been practicing doctors who had completed a residency in another country that want to come to the US to practice medicine but have to pass the US exam and go through another residency to be able to practice in the US. Half of the residency spots in this country are filled by students not from US Medical Schools.  Furthermore, even many of the minorities that are educated in US medical schools are not even originally from the US...which also gives them a huge disadvantage because there is such a strong reading/time element on this test.  My boyfriend has 4 "black" people in his medical school class of 200.  Two out of the four of them are actually from Africa!  I can easily understand how on this test a person for whom English is a second language would be really hurt in their score.  This test requires the test takers to read really fast and comprehend the reading very quickly and then make a very quick decision.  However, this isn't neccesarily indicative of their performance as a doctor....they aren't going to have only 20 seconds to diagnose you!  I would be willing to bet that the African Americans born in the US who went to medical school in the US have very comparable scores to the whites born in the US who went to school in the US.
 
Title: Re: Admissions Dilemma Or Why AA Won't Work Or White IQ is 100, Black IQ is 85
Post by: WoeIsMe on January 18, 2005, 09:03:19 AM
are you saying they can't even explain how to do a quadruple bypass in 30 seconds, given the patient has diabetes, HIV, a nail stuck in his head, and is the other half of a perfectly healthy conjoined twin?
Title: Re: Admissions Dilemma Or Why AA Won't Work Or White IQ is 100, Black IQ is 85
Post by: ElizaB on January 18, 2005, 09:07:14 AM
are you saying they can't even explain how to do a quadruple bypass in 30 seconds, given the patient has diabetes, HIV, a nail stuck in his head, and is the other half of a perfectly healthy conjoined twin?

LOL...that sounds about like some of the questions on that goofy test!
Title: Re: Admissions Dilemma Or Why AA Won't Work Or White IQ is 100, Black IQ is 85
Post by: TheZooker on January 18, 2005, 10:22:26 AM
Well Eliza, this quote from you argument...

I would be willing to bet that the African Americans born in the US who went to medical school in the US have very comparable scores to the whites born in the US who went to school in the US.

...is unfortunately not true, or at least not true for law students.  Black students have alarmingly high attrition rates and relatively low bar passage rates when compared to their white counterparts.  For many pro-white, anti-AA, this adds fuel to the fire.  Current indicators, however, suggest that this disparity is not due to minority students 'not being up to snuff' or some other such ridiculous argument, but rather due to these students being placed into institutions where their academic credentials put them at a significant disadvantage, relative to their peers.  It's really a difficult issue, because these students are not likely to be able to attain high GPAs and LSATs (or MCATs) due to the myriad obstacles they face in obtaining a higher education.  So they are given a 'bump' in the caliber of institution they attend, but as a result they all too often place very poorly in their class.  Again, no easy answer.

Title: Re: Admissions Dilemma Or Why AA Won't Work Or White IQ is 100, Black IQ is 85
Post by: maricutie on January 18, 2005, 10:30:50 AM
Current indicators, however, suggest that this disparity is not due to minority students 'not being up to snuff' or some other such ridiculous argument, but rather due to these students being placed into institutions where their academic credentials put them at a significant disadvantage, relative to their peers.  It's really a difficult issue, because these students are not likely to be able to attain high GPAs and LSATs (or MCATs) due to the myriad obstacles they face in obtaining a higher education.  So they are given a 'bump' in the caliber of institution they attend, but as a result they all too often place very poorly in their class.  Again, no easy answer.

I remember quickly browsing this article, and wondering which schools they focused on. I say this because the "bump" that minorities usually get is most evident among the lower ranked schools, and less evident in higher ones. Anyone have a link to the actual article with the data tables still attached?

Also, not to change the subject, but the studies done have only foused on black and white students, not minorities in general. Given the disparate origins, history and economic standing of the ethnic groups that benefit from AA, I can't go as far as to say that such a study can be generalized. Not picking on you, it just seems that the majority of these recent AA threads are solely locked into that B&W construction of AA policies.
Title: Re: Admissions Dilemma Or Why AA Won't Work Or White IQ is 100, Black IQ is 85
Post by: giffy on January 18, 2005, 10:56:58 AM
It appears that the www.lagriffedulion.com people as well as the authors of such books as The Bell Curve (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0029146739/qid=1106069473/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-3025226-8015364?v=glance&s=books) and IQ and the Wealth of Nations (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/027597510X/qid=1106069516/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/102-3025226-8015364) have concluded that there is a difference in IQ between people of different races.

It is already clear that there are other difference between people of different races.  Here is one obvious example: skin color.  There may well be many other differences between the races as well.

Why should we assume, a priori, that all races have the same average IQ?  Also, how is it racist or prejudiced to come to this conclusion after conducting various studies and statistical analyses?

Prejudice means to "pre-judge" -- i.e., to arrive at a conclusion before doing your homework.  Prejudice does not mean "to think anything negative about".

Here is an example: if after doing several large scale studies and a lot of statistical analysis you conclude that smoking causes lung cancer, you are not prejudiced against smoking.  In fact, you have an intelligent and informed opinion.  Your opinion is that there is a negative attribute associated with smoking, but just the fact that it is negative doesn't make you prejudiced.

Prejudice has to do with your methadology (i.e., not having a good one), not your conclusion.

In the case of race and IQ it appears that the people who have arrived at their conclusions without doing their homework are those who blithely assume, a priori, that there cannot be an IQ difference between the races.  Those who actually do the analysis and conduct the studies and arrive at their conclusions in a rigorous manner are labelled "prejudiced" by the very people who are in fact more prejudiced.  How ironic.

1. Would you care to define race.

2. Could you explain how there could be an evolutionary process that would preference one region over another in terms of intelligence. I can do that for skin color, lip size, and eye lid shape because these things are directly related to the environment but have yet to see how it could work with intelligence.

3. Could you explain why there are no observable genetic or neurological differences between people of different skin color.
Title: Re: Admissions Dilemma Or Why AA Won't Work Or White IQ is 100, Black IQ is 85
Post by: maricutie on January 18, 2005, 10:58:30 AM
It appears that the www.lagriffedulion.com people as well as the authors of such books as The Bell Curve (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0029146739/qid=1106069473/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-3025226-8015364?v=glance&s=books) and IQ and the Wealth of Nations (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/027597510X/qid=1106069516/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/102-3025226-8015364) have concluded that there is a difference in IQ between people of different races.

It is already clear that there are other difference between people of different races.  Here is one obvious example: skin color.  There may well be many other differences between the races as well.

Why should we assume, a priori, that all races have the same average IQ?  Also, how is it racist or prejudiced to come to this conclusion after conducting various studies and statistical analyses?

In the case of race and IQ it appears that the people who have arrived at their conclusions without doing their homework are those who blithely assume, a priori, that there cannot be an IQ difference between the races.  Those who actually do the analysis and conduct the studies and arrive at their conclusions in a rigorous manner are labelled "prejudiced" by the very people who are in fact more prejudiced.  How ironic.

Ok, now this has got to be flame. Have you read the book? have you read any of the criticms against it? For all of its claim as a scientific book, it sure does assume alot. First, what Herrnstein and Murray used to measure IQ is actually a measure of education as well as intelligence. Second, they resist the obvious inference that the test scores are measuring something other than intelligence. Third, while most of The Bell Curve's analysis was devoted to proving that IQ has more predictive power than parental "socio-economic status," the method that Herrnstein and Murray used to figure socioeconomic status seems designed to low-ball its influence.

I won't continue because there seems to be a lot more involving hardcore stats that I cannot claim to fully understand myself, but suffice to say: use a better example next time. 
Title: Re: Admissions Dilemma Or Why AA Won't Work Or White IQ is 100, Black IQ is 85
Post by: shiveringjenny on January 18, 2005, 11:00:31 AM
If this sort of thing actually interests you academically, there are a lot of resources out there.

I really like some of steve sailer's articles on the subject, to be honest. they are just so f-ing interesting. be forewarned-- his arguments can be kind of offensive if you aren't in the right mood. in fact, they can also be offensive if you are being perfectly open-minded.

people who beat the *&^% out of this dead horse fall into one of a few categories. among which, some people are racists, some people are contrarian, and some people are genuinely interested in the differences between different types of people. i think steve sailer falls very strongly into the 'genuine interest' category, and that is why i like his blog.

of course, he is a conservative, and therefore evil, so that is also something to consider upon deciding whether or not to read his stuff.

and, finally, i am not saying that i agree with what he has to say on many subjects-- i'm just saying that it is interesting.

anyway, his site's at www.isteve.com
Title: Re: Admissions Dilemma Or Why AA Won't Work Or White IQ is 100, Black IQ is 85
Post by: TheZooker on January 18, 2005, 11:02:30 AM

Also, not to change the subject, but the studies done have only foused on black and white students, not minorities in general. Given the disparate origins, history and economic standing of the ethnic groups that benefit from AA, I can't go as far as to say that such a study can be generalized. Not picking on you, it just seems that the majority of these recent AA threads are solely locked into that B&W construction of AA policies.

You are certainly correct about the issue of other minorities.  The reason I have confined my statements to b/w issues is because that is the only comparison that I have seen studies on and can speak intelligently of.

Most of the facts I have stated in these discussions have come from the Sander study:

http://www1.law.ucla.edu/~sander/Documents/Sander%20FINAL.pdf

I'll give you the same warning I gave Mobell:  Its huge!!  There is really a lot in it, though, and I think its pretty well done.  I find this source much more useful than others, such as the Bell Curve (which I have read and am very familiar with), mostly due to the tone of the writing.  It seems to me that Sander is genuinely trying to solve a problem and is out for the greater good of the minorities involved, while Herrnstein and Murray are largely trying to create controversy and sell more books.  Just a personal opinion.
Title: Re: Admissions Dilemma Or Why AA Won't Work Or White IQ is 100, Black IQ is 85
Post by: WoeIsMe on January 18, 2005, 11:16:26 AM
It appears that the www.lagriffedulion.com people as well as the authors of such books as The Bell Curve (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0029146739/qid=1106069473/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-3025226-8015364?v=glance&s=books) and IQ and the Wealth of Nations (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/027597510X/qid=1106069516/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/102-3025226-8015364) have concluded that there is a difference in IQ between people of different races.

It is already clear that there are other difference between people of different races.  Here is one obvious example: skin color.  There may well be many other differences between the races as well.

Why should we assume, a priori, that all races have the same average IQ?  Also, how is it racist or prejudiced to come to this conclusion after conducting various studies and statistical analyses?

Prejudice means to "pre-judge" -- i.e., to arrive at a conclusion before doing your homework.  Prejudice does not mean "to think anything negative about".

Here is an example: if after doing several large scale studies and a lot of statistical analysis you conclude that smoking causes lung cancer, you are not prejudiced against smoking.  In fact, you have an intelligent and informed opinion.  Your opinion is that there is a negative attribute associated with smoking, but just the fact that it is negative doesn't make you prejudiced.

Prejudice has to do with your methadology (i.e., not having a good one), not your conclusion.

In the case of race and IQ it appears that the people who have arrived at their conclusions without doing their homework are those who blithely assume, a priori, that there cannot be an IQ difference between the races.  Those who actually do the analysis and conduct the studies and arrive at their conclusions in a rigorous manner are labelled "prejudiced" by the very people who are in fact more prejudiced.  How ironic.


who are you arguing with?

let me reword my post.. IQ, the measure of intelligence is a MOVING TARGET, with several assumptions in place.  the measure is NORMALIZED across several variables, with AGE and TIME being two of them.  There are also several other variables it is NOT normalized against, race being one of them.  It is also clear that given the same IQ tests to blacks of modern day and whites of 18th century, the black group would kick whitey's ass.  So is this genetically determined? No.  Is genetic race a possible factor? Yes possibly.  Let's remove the correction for age and compare 80 year old whites with 23 year blacks.. what is your bet?

the point being that raw intelligence is a moving target, where the rate it moves differs for the  entire population and clusters within the population.  I'm certainly am not claiming there cannot be differences, but what I am saying is to examine carefully how you're producing the final IQ number and what factors the corrections are being made with.
Title: Re: Admissions Dilemma Or Why AA Won't Work Or White IQ is 100, Black IQ is 85
Post by: maricutie on January 18, 2005, 11:17:25 AM
Ok, now this has got to be flame. Have you read the book? have you read any of the criticms against it? For all of its claim as a scientific book, it sure does assume alot. First, what Herrnstein and Murray used to measure IQ is actually a measure of education as well as intelligence. Second, they resist the obvious inference that the test scores are measuring something other than intelligence. Third, while most of The Bell Curve's analysis was devoted to proving that IQ has more predictive power than parental "socio-economic status," the method that Herrnstein and Murray used to figure socioeconomic status seems designed to low-ball its influence.

I won't continue because there seems to be a lot more involving hardcore stats that I cannot claim to fully understand myself, but suffice to say: use a better example next time. 

There are a lot of people who want to discredit this stuff because they don't like the conclusions.  For many people, the studies and the methadology used in The Bell Curve, etc., just HAVE TO BE WRONG -- because they already know what the answer is.  They will do anything, say anything, make up anything, and blow the tiniest flaw or inconsistency out of all reasonable proportion.

They don't approach the subject objectively, instead they go on a witch hunt to discredit these conclusions at all costs.

Agreed. Except that, if true, these are HUGE oversights on the part of Herrnstein and Murray, to the point that it really tears major holes in their conclusions. Seriously, even approching it with an open mind, these are big. That's why I asked if you'd read it; granted, I've only read parts, since it seems pretty dense, but I think the criticisms of it might actually be valid. And I haven't seen any kind of counter-arguments addressing these points. 

Zooker -- when I downloaded it previously (before I lost it on my computer), I too was struck by his demeanor. I mean, he has a bi-racial daughter, for one. He really puts his money where his mouth is, so to speak. The ethnic studies minor in me says I like him :)
Title: Re: Admissions Dilemma Or Why AA Won't Work Or White IQ is 100, Black IQ is 85
Post by: WoeIsMe on January 18, 2005, 11:46:17 AM

If this sort of thing actually interests you academically, there are a lot of resources out there.

I really like some of steve sailer's articles on the subject, to be honest. they are just so f-ing interesting. be forewarned-- his arguments can be kind of offensive if you aren't in the right mood. in fact, they can also be offensive if you are being perfectly open-minded.

people who beat the sh*t out of this dead horse fall into one of a few categories. among which, some people are racists, some people are contrarian, and some people are genuinely interested in the differences between different types of people. i think steve sailer falls very strongly into the 'genuine interest' category, and that is why i like his blog.

of course, he is a conservative, and therefore evil, so that is also something to consider upon deciding whether or not to read his stuff.

and, finally, i am not saying that i agree with what he has to say on many subjects-- i'm just saying that it is interesting.

anyway, his site's at www.isteve.com


thanks.. interesting site.

http://www.isteve.com/IQ_Table.htm

notice the difference in split countries:

China 100, Hong Kong 107
West Germany 103, East Germany 95
South Korea 106,  No data on North, but guarantee it is below 100

Is it racial or per capita GDP?  If it was primarily racial, shouldn't the scores in split countries be closer?
Title: Re: Admissions Dilemma Or Why AA Won't Work Or White IQ is 100, Black IQ is 85
Post by: blk_reign on January 18, 2005, 09:39:54 PM
It's time to consider that the white bogeyman is NOT responsible for the continuing poor performance of blacks in school.

Consider reading this excellent article:  http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/testing.htm


Interesting facts:

* Black children from the wealthiest families have mean SAT scores lower than white children from families below the poverty line.

*  60% of blacks score below 145 on the LSAT.

*  Black children of parents with graduate degrees have lower SAT scores than white children of parents with a high-school diploma or less.


From the article:

Need a Doctor?
   Medical school admission is uncommonly competitive, there being many more applicants than slots. The competition is so intense that if black applicants were held to the same admission standards as whites and Asians, we would turn out almost no black physicians.

   We now have a double standard for admission to medical school brought about by affirmative action. As a result, two tiers of American physicians have emerged separated by race and ability.

 We have seen that law students admitted under affirmative action do not measure up to their white and Asian peers as law-school graduates. Can we say the same for doctors? We will quantify the performance gap for physicians.

   A benchmark for medical competence is the National Board of Medical Examiners (NBME) Exam Part I. Every medical student in the US must pass it to become a physician. Students take the exam two years before graduation. It is one of several ways the profession keeps itself honest. The most comprehensive study of NBME pass rates was published in 1994 by Beth Dawson et al (JAMA 1994 272:9 674-9). The authors examined the performance of every medical student in the US taking the June exam for the first time over the years 1986, 1987 and 1988. Dawson and her colleagues found that white medical students passed the NBME test at a rate of 87.7 percent and blacks at 48.9 percent. Again, using methods described in Appendix A, we found these pass rates equivalent to a black-white mean difference of 1.19 SD. Mean differences for the bar and NBME exams are conspicuously similar. The one-plus SD gap does not yield easily.

   Notably, when Dawson's study looked at entering students with similar academic credentials, the pass rates on the NBME exam were independent of race, pointing an accusing finger directly at affirmative action. For all its good intentions, affirmative action has created two levels of competence in American medicine, separated by a bit more than one standard deviation. When you are wheeled into the ER at 2:00 a.m., if you pray, pray that the black doctor who greets you entered medical school through the front door.


so.... does your IQ drop when you get a tan? Inquiring minds would like to know.
Title: Re: Admissions Dilemma Or Why AA Won't Work Or White IQ is 100, Black IQ is 85
Post by: boogie77 on February 09, 2005, 12:12:32 PM
I may be late but...

1. Yes, "Blacks" are somewhat responsible for their lack of performance. (yeah..I'm black..yeah...I said it!)...but who is "black" and who is "white"? People who comprise these groups have changed over time. Ex. Jews weren't always considered "white".

2. Those type of studies are always flawed...1st How do you measure "wealth", by income or net worth? How do you measure "social" capital? Did they include the amount of study time--LSAT prep classes, access to previous tests--that each student put into the test? What types of neighborhoods are these students with parents with graduate degrees living in? How do you measure poverty? The meaning of poverty changes from state to state. Im quite sure that whites living below the poverty line outnumber "wealthy" blacks by a huge numbe, because they outnumber poor blacks by a large number. Would this effect the results?

3. Have you been black lately? Do you know how it feels to be discouraged from doing your best? Has someone followed you around the store for no apparent reason? Have you been pulled over by cops, just because you fit the description? All These phenomena affects the black psyche in some way.

4. How does a standarized test measure I.Q.? Can't you study to get a better score? Were you "smarter" the 1st you took the test without prepartion, or after the 2nd time when you learned the "tricks"?

This is good for debate...and just lets me know what I'll be facing in the future.
Title: Re: Admissions Dilemma Or Why AA Won't Work Or White IQ is 100, Black IQ is 85
Post by: Name Changing Queen on March 05, 2005, 10:56:57 PM
It's time to consider that the white bogeyman is NOT responsible for the continuing poor performance of blacks in school.

Consider reading this excellent article:  http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/testing.htm


Interesting facts:

* Black children from the wealthiest families have mean SAT scores lower than white children from families below the poverty line.

*  60% of blacks score below 145 on the LSAT.

*  Black children of parents with graduate degrees have lower SAT scores than white children of parents with a high-school diploma or less."

+++++++++++++++
I am just going to say this:

let's say you are right, and that statistically, black children have lower SAT scores even when their parents have degrees, and even when compared against white children who have parents w/o degrees....  that seems ridiculous!... but let's say it is so hypothetically...

Can you just then infer that the reason is biological?  What about culture?  What about the expectations of the children's teachers?  What about the additional pressures of being black?  What about black youth culture (I mean maybe pressure among peers to underperform academcially)?  Aren't there a lot of factors?






   
   

   
Title: Re: Admissions Dilemma Or Why AA Won't Work Or White IQ is 100, Black IQ is 85
Post by: Trinitygunner on April 17, 2005, 07:49:41 AM
Wow. call me naive--these attitudes STILL exist? makes me so sad some of these bums are going to law school and might be future colleagues. *sigh* :'(
Title: Re: Admissions Dilemma Or Why AA Won't Work Or White IQ is 100, Black IQ is 85
Post by: mxpocc on June 29, 2005, 02:04:06 PM
white iqs are only 100? what a bunch of retarded, average hacks.
Title: Re: Admissions Dilemma Or Why AA Won't Work Or White IQ is 100, Black IQ is 85
Post by: mxpocc on July 10, 2005, 12:31:21 PM
This is an interesting thread.  I was getting so fed up with affirmative action that the only way I could justify it to myself is maybe the races that receive affirmative actiion (and I will leave that to you to define) are innately dumber than the other races.  When people question an URM that gets into Havard 158 LSAT score or Yale with a 163 the response is always don't question unless you know the soft factors.  I am sorry but unless you found a cure for cancer or won a bunch of olympic gold medals you shouldn't get into havard with a 150 something LSAT score.  Unfortunately I know too many URM admitted to college with subpar grades and test scores that whenever I see an URM in my class I think oh thats the token AA student.  I realize that is a horrible thing to think, especially since that it could be a student with a 4.0 GPA and excellent test scores.  AA hurts the URM that deserve their spots.

does it really matter if that subpar, token AA student can't place in a great job after college?
Title: Re: Admissions Dilemma Or Why AA Won't Work Or White IQ is 100, Black IQ is 85
Post by: philibusters on July 19, 2005, 08:43:14 PM
If you were a white child and came from conditions below the poverty line and you are taking the lsat then your at least a standard smarter than your avg peer...seriously I'm from a middle class background, but at my hs only a couple out of hundreds of the kids from poorer background took the SAT...
Second that article sounds balantly racist.  Its so easy to fudge numbers by not keeping track of variables, having questionable variables, or going in with a preconceived bias that you totally read the results wrong on focus on only a small part of the stats.
Third, Why are people get so mad at AA...Did you literally believe it when they told you in school the world was a perfect place.  So one interest groups gets a small advantage that slightly affects everybody negatively?  Whats the big deal, isn't that what pork barrell legislation is, tax cuts for the rich, the way the corporate system benefits those on top, the AMA and ABA influence at protecting the legal profession and medical professions even...thats life...people need to stop whining and face the real world.
Title: Re: Admissions Dilemma Or Why AA Won't Work Or White IQ is 100, Black IQ is 85
Post by: ImVinny! on July 21, 2005, 12:55:45 PM
"who is "black" and who is "white"? People who comprise these groups have changed over time. Ex. Jews weren't always considered "white". "

This is a good question indeed.