Law School Discussion

Deciding Where to Go => Visits, Admit Days, and Open Houses => Topic started by: SleepyGuyYawn on December 09, 2004, 03:12:25 PM

Title: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: SleepyGuyYawn on December 09, 2004, 03:12:25 PM
Ok, I've been to both... but in the summer.  I can see that Newark has a newer building, and I know they have a decent faculty and good public interest programs (that's what I'd like to do).

Camden, like Newark, isn't in a great area -- but Philly is much closer to Camden than Newark is to Philly it seems (10 minutes vs. 30 minutes).  Camden has a great faculty, but not as good of a facility.

So which is better? (more prestigious/ better place to live/ better experience, etc...)?

Will either move up in the rankings this year ya think?  (yes, I don't like the US News rankings either, but I've given in because they are just so darned self-fufilling).

Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: James Neutron on December 09, 2004, 05:11:00 PM
i think if you wanna work in philly, go to camden, if you wanna shoot for NY then go to newark.  like you said, neither is in a great location, camden being slightly worse, but the area around the law school and on the waterfront isnt too bad.

i don't foresee either one becoming vastly better than the other, but it looks like camden's lsat numbers have been climbing in the past couple years and are now a lot higher than newarks.

basically, theyre both pretty local schools with a lot of new jersey people, and just so you know, newark to philly is at least an hour, but more like an hour and a half.  camden is literally right across the river from philly, like a 5 minute drive
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: SleepyGuyYawn on December 09, 2004, 06:11:56 PM
Yea, thanks for the reply.  I find it interesting that you said that Camden is slightly worse.  Just from a quick visit, of course, I couldn't tell much about Camden or Newark, except that both looked fairly bleak. 

I do like Philly and New York City both.  But really I wouldn't mind (would enjoy, in fact) a clerkship after law school, at least I think.  And both Newark and Camden seem to have quite good stats as far as sending grads to clerkships.

Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: help101 on December 09, 2004, 06:47:57 PM
FYI, Camden was just rated one of the most dangerous cities (2004) to live in.

HTH
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: help101 on December 09, 2004, 06:51:51 PM
Camden, NJ #5 and Newark, NJ #12 out of 25.
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: bhvexille on December 09, 2004, 07:02:11 PM
If it's a choice between the two, go to camden, they have better employment stats
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: lawboundFALL05 on December 09, 2004, 07:45:13 PM
FYI, Camden was just rated one of the most dangerous cities (2004) to live in.

HTH

THE most dangerous from what I saw here:  http://www.morganquitno.com/cit05pop.htm

This explains my meeting with them at the law forum.  When I asked about what their school was like, the representative immediately told me about a several-hundred-millioan dollar rehabilitation project for the city.  That is how bad their area is:  That crime is the first factor they address to a prospective applicant.

I'm not sure what it is like to live in Camden, but if there was a survey of paint colors chosen within U.S. cities, and Camden was voted "Most Purple of 2004", then I'd expect to see the color purple all the time when visiting.

If Camden was voted the most unsafe, then you will probably see (or be a victim of) crime pretty often.
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: help101 on December 09, 2004, 08:10:52 PM
this is EXTREMELY scary for FEMALES!! :(
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: bhvexille on December 09, 2004, 08:11:25 PM
A lot of schools are in ghettos.. i.e. yale, columbia, john's hopkins, loyola marymount, usc, berkley, etc.
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: help101 on December 09, 2004, 08:13:11 PM
you're absolutely right about columbia.  also umd.

i've heard the same thing about temple, but i haven't visited there.
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: lawboundFALL05 on December 09, 2004, 08:18:18 PM
A lot of schools are in ghettos.. i.e. yale, columbia, john's hopkins, loyola marymount, usc, berkley, etc.

Very true, but none of these cities were just found to be the MOST DANGEROUS IN AMERICA. 
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: NYKnicks on December 09, 2004, 08:32:28 PM
I actually regret applying to Camden and it probably went straight to the bottom of my list after I found out about it being the most dangerous city. Either way though, I had already put that school in the doghouse after visiting and really having a look at the area. The campus isn't all that impressive and the surrounding area is a jungle. I mean the only advantage of going there is if you want to work in Philly eventually, but thean again, you could always try to get into Temple for that. I'd take Newark all the way, if only for my well being. I know Newark isn't the best area either, but around the campus is really not that bad.
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: laur0212 on December 09, 2004, 08:39:29 PM
Being from NJ (as I know many of you probably are) neither Newark or Camden appeal to me very much, obvious tuition benefits aside.  If you go to Newark, chances are you won't live in the city but seeing as it is so close to Manhattan, its ridiculously expensive to live up there.  Same thing goes for Camden in terms of living in the city.  Camden is NOT a place you want to live, but Philly is so close and much safer therefore if I end up there I'll be finding a place to live across the river. 

As a side note, Newark has been on the rise for a while now.  It's not as bad as it used to be, and many areas of the city are actually quite nice (have you all seen NJPAC?). 
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: NYKnicks on December 09, 2004, 08:51:45 PM
Either way, it is a blessing that no law campus is at New Brunswick. I could not stand it to go back there for 3 more years...
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: SleepyGuyYawn on December 09, 2004, 09:40:33 PM
Thanks a lot for your replies (especially Kevdog).

Yea -- I like both of these schools.  And the information is great to have.
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: Rizz98 on December 10, 2004, 05:48:51 AM
Also, remember that these crime stats are highly driven by population - it's all per capita. That's why Camden & Gary, IN always end up on these crime lists - they are small (less than 100,000 people) cities. I'd be interested to see stats on muggings, rapes, etc. of random people - not murder of drug dealers & other drug-associated crime.

That being said, would I go for a jog around the rowhouses south of the Tweeter Center at 11:30 on a Friday night? I don't think so!
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: laur0212 on December 10, 2004, 06:32:18 PM
Actually, according to the most recent survey (which came out a couple of weeks ago) Camden is the United States' 2ND Most Dangerous City, right behind Detroit.  And yes, obviously this is per capita, but that kinda makes your odds worse.
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: laur0212 on December 11, 2004, 07:05:18 PM
And yet for some reason my parents think that I would rather go there than Newark--at least most of North Jersey is nice.

My mom just wants me to live in Philly which, no offense to Philadelphians, is one of my least favorite cities.  My parents are both native New Yorkers and I grew up thinking NYC was the end-all be-all.  I just never warmed up to Philly.  No particular reason that I can come up with.

But yeah, Camden is freakin horrible, crime aside.
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: bhvexille on December 11, 2004, 10:20:36 PM
I just spent the evening hanging out with three beautiful undergrads at rutgerts-camden

All they really had to say about the school was that it had a safe campus in a really ghetto area
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: NYKnicks on December 11, 2004, 10:25:24 PM
Thats pretty contradictory info.
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: bhvexille on December 11, 2004, 10:36:10 PM
Have people been saying it's a dangerous campus?  All 3 said it's a safe campus.

Maybe the undergrad campus is seperate from the law school?
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: SuperMoni on December 12, 2004, 10:21:48 AM
I grew up not too far from Camden, and believe it or not, Camden has actually improved over the years.  The waterfront is really nice now and is relatively safe (they've spent millions on it over the years).  If you live there or go to school there you are going to know what areas you should and shouldn't be going into.  The area where the Rutgers Campus is is in a nice part.  There is also a Rowan satellite campus there, and another school i think, so it gives it a collegiate atmosphere in that part of town.  There is a lot of opportunity there.

As for living situations, I wouldn't live in Camden myself (although they do actually have lofts that recently sold in the millions on the waterfront--so like I said its not all ghetto).  You can find a nice area within a 10-15 drive for a good price.  I grew up in a nice and safe suburbia myself and it was only a 10 minute car ride from Camden.
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: laur0212 on December 12, 2004, 01:16:15 PM



Hey now :) Philadelphia is f-ing great. I grew up here, in the shadow of NYC. I never realized how much smaller Philly was than NYC until I first saw Manhattan. But I never tried to find reasons why Philadelphia is better or as good as New York. Plainly: they are both phenomenal places for fundamentally different reasons.

My good friend grew up in Succasunna/Roxbury, and worked for ConEd in NYC for a year after graduating college. He came to Philadelphia with an impression more or less on par with yours, and now he loves both towns.

I'm not trying to sell you Philly, just trying to say that there is life after NYC.

That said, I applied to 3 schools near NYC and 3 schools near Philly. So I could go either way.

Truth be told, I actually like Philly a lot better than I used to.  I have some friends who live there now so every once in a while I go party with them down there.  We usually don't do anything high maintenance like going into Center City or down to South Street (I prefer dive bars) and opt to stay in Northeast Philly, which is really growing on me. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't LOVE NYC anymore either.  I haven't been there in about 4 years, which is dumb because I live only an hour away, but it's always such a hassle to go into NYC.  I'd love to spend a weekend there, but I definitely don't have that kind of money.

Philly is definitely the town with easier access for me.  I don't mind driving to Philly and there's relatively decent parking.  I wouldn't even consider driving to Manhattan and not only because the parking would cost me more than my life is worth.  But even though I see the all the things that Philly has to offer, I just have this innate preference for NYC.  Maybe it'll change someday, but for now I just can't help it!

Sorry!   :'(
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: NYKnicks on December 12, 2004, 05:09:26 PM
Have people been saying it's a dangerous campus?  All 3 said it's a safe campus.

Maybe the undergrad campus is seperate from the law school?

The campus is decent from what I've seen, but you're going to want to leave campus SOME of the time.
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark? STAY AWAYYYYYY OR GET SHOT/STABBED
Post by: DRJJ1 on December 12, 2004, 05:30:52 PM
GOING TO school is one thing but getting shot and stabbed is another   newark and camden law schools are defin out for me and my friends applying to law school

 IF YOU VALUE YOUR LIFE STAY AWAY FROM THESE SCHOOLS!!!
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark? STAY AWAYYYYYY OR GET SHOT/STABBED
Post by: NYKnicks on December 12, 2004, 05:32:39 PM
GOING TO school is one thing but getting shot and stabbed is another   newark and camden law schools are defin out for me and my friends applying to law school

 IF YOU VALUE YOUR LIFE STAY AWAY FROM THESE SCHOOLS!!!

Couldn't have put it in simpler terms. For the record, I feel Newark is still a big step up though.
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: bhvexille on December 12, 2004, 08:44:17 PM
Unfortunately, camden seems to be a good 2 or so hours away from manhattan, and you need to transfer trains or get a ride to trenton or something.
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: laur0212 on December 13, 2004, 08:34:51 AM
Camden is about a two hour drive to Manhattan, and you're partially correct about the trains.  There is now a train line that goes directly from Camden to Trenton, but you may have to switch to the Northeast Corridor line to get to Penn Station.  Still, this is much better than driving to Manhattan, where you'll have to worry about parking.

To the poster who said that if you value your life you should stay away from these schools, I think that's a bit of an exaggeration.  I've spent time in both Newark and Camden and while neither is exactly a garden of Eden, neither is exactly the hell you describe them as either.  Yes, there is an elevated crime rate in both cities, but just like anywhere else you go in the world, stay away from the bad areas.  In the case of Camden, don't live in the city and don't venture off campus alone at night (especially women).  As for Newark, the school is not in a bad area as I understand it.  Do you want to go into the ghetto?  Obviously not.  But seriously, I'm kind of tired of people knocking Camden and Newark and characterizing them as cities that one should not enter unless they have a death wish. 

Get a grip and a sense of reality and quit knocking my state.
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: SuperMoni on December 13, 2004, 11:45:48 AM
Camden is about a two hour drive to Manhattan, and you're partially correct about the trains. There is now a train line that goes directly from Camden to Trenton, but you may have to switch to the Northeast Corridor line to get to Penn Station. Still, this is much better than driving to Manhattan, where you'll have to worry about parking.

To the poster who said that if you value your life you should stay away from these schools, I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. I've spent time in both Newark and Camden and while neither is exactly a garden of Eden, neither is exactly the hell you describe them as either. Yes, there is an elevated crime rate in both cities, but just like anywhere else you go in the world, stay away from the bad areas. In the case of Camden, don't live in the city and don't venture off campus alone at night (especially women). As for Newark, the school is not in a bad area as I understand it. Do you want to go into the ghetto? Obviously not. But seriously, I'm kind of tired of people knocking Camden and Newark and characterizing them as cities that one should not enter unless they have a death wish.

Get a grip and a sense of reality and quit knocking my state.

Applause, applause!  Thank you for capturing my sentiments exactly. 

I go to undergrad in DC, the "murder capital of the nation".  Does that mean that no one who values their life should ever step foot in DC?  I think not.  Every area has a "bad part" or a "worse part" but if you use your head you'll be safe.  And to the poster who said that he/she wouldn't hang out on the other side of the wall at the Tweeter Center: It's not as bad as you make it sound. As a female, I've hung out there and been just fine.  But like I said you have to use your head.  Walk in groups, yada yada.
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: laur0212 on December 13, 2004, 01:24:07 PM
Yay!  Thanks for backing me up, it always helps.  I too went to undergrad in DC.  Maybe its learning to live in a city where you understand that you can't go certain places, especially not at night and not as a female, but anyway, its nice to see that there is someone else with at least a modicum of common sense.
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: bhvexille on December 13, 2004, 01:27:00 PM
Actually as a white female you're usually pretty safe in black neighborhoods.. statistically speaking, rape rarely crosses racial lines

It's us white boys who have something to worry about :(
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: laur0212 on December 13, 2004, 02:18:51 PM
Ah, but then again, rape is not the only interpersonal crime that exists.  Who says they won't mug me?
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: bhvexille on December 13, 2004, 02:45:14 PM
I was just responding to the "especially women" part
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: laur0212 on December 13, 2004, 06:12:57 PM
And I was only alluding to the fact that women are generally smaller and weaker than men and therefore make easier targets.
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: DRJJ1 on December 13, 2004, 06:39:08 PM
LAUR..this is directed to you because you seem so naive and non-street wise,,you seem from your picture very suburban-like bubble living,,,those camden street girls would rip you up...keep talking like youre tough but soon enough you re gonna have to prove what you got and you better hope its not for your life...I repeat  camden and newark are badddd   try walking around there mid-noon,,,I saw this guy stabbed right on the street one time,,,another time I saw 3 guys beating up this guy  saying you better gimme that jacket boy...so don t talk tough when we can see from your picture youre just a little girly
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: bhvexille on December 13, 2004, 06:51:21 PM
Statistically men are far far far more likely to be the victims of violent crime than women.. so even though you guys tend to be smaller, people also tend not to commit violent crimes against you
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: SleepyGuyYawn on December 13, 2004, 06:58:06 PM
DRJJ:

OH MY GOD! ORANGE ALERT, ORANGE ALERT!!!  OH GOD, NOT AN INNER-CITY--WE'LL DIE!!!

I lived on the Cass Corridor, one of the notoriously dangerous streets in Detroit.  There were enough shady folks, but if you stayed out of their business, they'd leave you alone.  Random crime doesn't happen a lot -- in Detroit, Camden, Baltimore, Ann Arbor, or Westchester County.  Drugs, domestic violence, gangs -- those were the big dangers when I lived in Detroit.  I didn't feel afraid.  I had friends who lived in the neighborhood (this was a few years ago).

Chill the heck out DRJJ.  I suspect you're the scared suburbanite, not Laur.  AND DON'T JUDGE PEOPLE BY THE WAY THEY LOOK!  
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: SleepyGuyYawn on December 13, 2004, 07:05:48 PM
Statistically men are far far far more likely to be the victims of violent crime than women.. so even though you guys tend to be smaller, people also tend not to commit violent crimes against you

Thank you -- I haven't heard this, but I am sure it is true.  It's just what I was saying.  Bad drug deals, gangs, money owed, abusive husbands or boyfriends -- these are the reasons for so much crime in Detroit. By and large (although it happens very occasionally) it is not random.

Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: bhvexille on December 13, 2004, 07:07:45 PM
It's a statistic you can find in any intro to crim. justice text book, if you're ever hanging out in your university bookstore and have some extra free time on your hands
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: laur0212 on December 14, 2004, 08:47:04 PM
LAUR..this is directed to you because you seem so naive and non-street wise,,you seem from your picture very suburban-like bubble living,,,those camden street girls would rip you up...keep talking like youre tough but soon enough you re gonna have to prove what you got and you better hope its not for your life...I repeat camden and newark are badddd try walking around there mid-noon,,,I saw this guy stabbed right on the street one time,,,another time I saw 3 guys beating up this guy saying you better gimme that jacket boy...so don t talk tough when we can see from your picture youre just a little girly

1.  Get off your high horse.  You can tell absolutely nothing from my picture.  Not that I should ever have to explain myself to anyone, but I happen to be very dressed up in that picture because I was on a cruise with my family.  I happen to think its a very flattering picture of myself, but I'm glad that someone as ridiculous and narrow-minded as you decided to judge me as some prissy "non sweetwise" goody two shoes from looking at it.

2.  When the @#!* was I talking "tough?"  You're upset because I took the time to defend the place I grew up in?  Are you that juvenile?  Get over yourself.

3.  I've lived in a dangerous city before.  You have to be smart in order to keep yourself from getting killed or hurt or whatever.  I NEVER said that I would walk around by myself or looking like I've got nothing to prove.  That would be dumb, and yes, naive.  I am neither.

4.  Next time you have something so original and noteworthy to say to me, there's no need to address it to the crowd.

P.S.  Thanks to SleepyGuy for defending me in my absence.  That was very nice of you and I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees the a-hole for what he is.

If I have offended anyone with my post, I'm sorry.  I felt I was personally attacked and that I had to respond.  I hope you can understand.
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: SleepyGuyYawn on December 14, 2004, 10:14:21 PM
You have every right to defend yourself Laur --- DRJJ was way out of line.

Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: DRJJ1 on December 15, 2004, 02:16:01 PM
CAMDEN kids go on cruises lol,,,,when you get a real job  don t live off your parents  pay your own bills then we will talk  until then,,,keep studying cause your only way out is law or just marry a lawyer
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: bhvexille on December 15, 2004, 02:20:48 PM
CAMDEN kids go on cruises lol,,,,when you get a real job  don t live off your parents  pay your own bills then we will talk  until then,,,keep studying cause your only way out is law or just marry a lawyer
What are you talking about?
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: laur0212 on December 17, 2004, 05:09:48 PM
thanks to everyone who has been defending me to the cretin. 

and, as a side note to this truly mature conversation we've been having, i got an email today from Rutgers-Newark telling me that I've been accepted.  So yay!  Now I don't have to go to Quinnipiac. 
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: burghblast on December 17, 2004, 06:42:27 PM
All I know about Rutgers is that my mom's friend from college went to law school there.  Like my mom, she got a B.A. in English and taught high school students.  But then she went back to get her law degree and now she works for the attorney general's office.  Her experience is the only impression my mother has of the legal profession.  Since she went to a second tier school and decided to work for the government, it's not surprising that she now makes less money than she did as an English teacher.  Over Thanksgiving dinner, my concerned mother matter-of-factly informed me that, should I attend law school, I would be stuck with that debt my entire life because every lawyer makes less than a public school teacher.  I tried explaining the difference in average starting salaries between tier 1 and tier 2 schools, and between private practice and the government, but it was to no avail. 

Moral of the story - When you graduate from Rutgers, don't work for the attorney general's office.
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: bhvexille on December 17, 2004, 06:49:11 PM
It's kind of funny because I want to go work in the OGC in the CIA right after school (and hopefully during my 2L summer as well).. but it only pays like 60k and I will have about 150k in debt

But anyways, more on topic on rutgers.. I don't think I would be too concerned with the campus because if you have a car, philly and upenn are like 10-15 minutes away.. and camden isn't that bad that you can't drive through it.

On another note.. if you're a "URM" in the legal field, rutgers camden is part of a racist program in philly that gives 1Ls (paid I think?) clerkships in law firms and in the legal departments of companies in philly.. this is a big thing because it can really help your resume, and most people have trouble finding paid legal work during that first summer
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: SleepyGuyYawn on December 17, 2004, 07:10:06 PM
Laur,

Congrats on the admission to Rut Newark! 
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: laur0212 on December 18, 2004, 08:38:57 AM
Thanks guys!
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: laur0212 on December 19, 2004, 11:39:04 AM
Thanks guys!

What's your top choice?

ASU...I need to get out of this cold weather.  Me like warm.
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: SleepyGuyYawn on December 19, 2004, 02:37:56 PM
God, ain't that the truth!  I'm seriously considering Miami even if I get into schools that are ranked a lot better. 

Me need warm too.
Title: Re: Rutgers: Camden vs. Newark?
Post by: Soon to be Ivy on December 19, 2004, 03:10:42 PM
Downy got rejected from both. Needless to say, he wasn't very happy.