Law School Discussion

Applying to Law School => Law School Admissions => Topic started by: JohnB. on November 10, 2004, 09:24:41 AM

Title: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: JohnB. on November 10, 2004, 09:24:41 AM
From looking at lawschoolnumbers.com there were blacks that got into top schools with 2.8 gpas. What's going on? I just feel Affirmative Action is destorying our country. A man's work should speak for itself. No pitty points should be given. And I love it when people classify me as a racist because I'm against AA. People wake up . . . dont you see what's going on?

I have no respect for blacks that go into law school based on their skin color. It's reverse discrimination and you know it!! But the capitalist in you wont allow you to admit that you are wrong.

For the record i'm not racist. I have a best friend who is black.


Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Faminesucks on November 10, 2004, 09:29:16 AM
Whenever someone says "I am not racist, I have A best friend who is Black", I think to myself wow, this person cannot be racist because he has 1 friend who is black. (NOT)
  Untill you have stepped in a black person's shoes, I cannot speak for other races here because I don't know how they are treated, you cannot possibly know what they go through on a daily basis.
 Affirmative Action is not enough to right the wrongs that so many black people go through today.
 Even so called unracist people have stereotypical ideas of what a black person is like, and how they act.
 I am not even going to continue with my argument to your offensice passage, it doesn't warrant any more of my time.
 
 Keep your ignorant views to yourself.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: jacy85 on November 10, 2004, 09:29:56 AM
Try reading one of the other 30 threads on this topic.  We really don't need a new one.

From looking at lawschoolnumbers.com there were blacks that got into top schools with 2.8 gpas. What's going on? I just feel Affirmative Action is destorying our country. A man's work should speak for itself. No pitty points should be given. And I love it when people classify me as a racist because I'm against AA. People wake up . . . dont you see what's going on?

I have no respect for blacks that go into law school based on their skin color. It's reverse discrimination and you know it!! But the capitalist in you wont allow you to admit that you are wrong.

For the record i'm not racist. I have a best friend who is black.

Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: superiorlobe on November 10, 2004, 09:34:14 AM
Whenever someone says "I am not racist, I have A best friend who is Black", I think to myself wow, this person cannot be racist because he has 1 friend who is black. (NOT)
  Untill you have stepped in a black person's shoes, I cannot speak for other races here because I don't know how they are treated, you cannot possibly know what they go through on a daily basis.
 Affirmative Action is not enough to right the wrongs that so many black people go through today.
 Even so called unracist people have stereotypical ideas of what a black person is like, and how they act.
 I am not even going to continue with my argument to your offensice passage, it doesn't warrant any more of my time.
 
 Keep your ignorant views to yourself.

Oh shut up.  I sick of reading prissy posts from people like you.  Before you accuse people of being racist for oppsoing AA, please define exactly what it is that makes a person racist.  If you can't or won't then STFU.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: JohnB. on November 10, 2004, 09:38:21 AM
Try reading one of the other 30 threads on this topic.  We really don't need a new one.

From looking at lawschoolnumbers.com there were blacks that got into top schools with 2.8 gpas. What's going on? I just feel Affirmative Action is destorying our country. A man's work should speak for itself. No pitty points should be given. And I love it when people classify me as a racist because I'm against AA. People wake up . . . dont you see what's going on?

I have no respect for blacks that go into law school based on their skin color. It's reverse discrimination and you know it!! But the capitalist in you wont allow you to admit that you are wrong.

For the record i'm not racist. I have a best friend who is black.



Are you for or against AA?
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: compact5 on November 10, 2004, 09:41:11 AM
I agree that AA could be viewed as reverse discrimation, however, I feel the real tragedy is the stigma AA has on truly qualified minorities. Consider for instance, a friend of mine, who is in my opinion a really smart brilliant African-American. We get about the same grades, I have a 3.93 and he has a 3.8 something, his LSAT was in the 98Th percentile, mine in the 96Th, but he has told me that he believes once he gets to law school everyone will think he got there because of AA and that my friend's is bull. Undoubtedly, there are minorities who dont have the "strict numbers" but we shouldnt pass judgement on all minorities. Some of them are just as qualified as typical applicants. I would also urge people against AA to spend a wk in North Phildelphia or some other poor minority ubran center, and ask yourself this question: Is it really possible for this individual considering his circumstances to score in the 99th percentile on the LSAT? It's difficult to get a good score even when you have everything going for you.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: jacy85 on November 10, 2004, 09:44:35 AM
I've probably posted in the past on this subject, and I'm not goint to repeat myself now.

Really, go read the other threads.  There's more than enough of them.  Your views are not novel.  You add nothing new, adn I guarantee you can find at least 2-3 posts that are almost identical to yours.

AA discussions on this board go round and round, and devolve into accusations of racism from both sides.  Nothing is accomplished, and they quickly loose whatever qualities an intelligent discourse might have.  Maybe somewhere else in the world people can have an intelligent, thought-provoking conversation on AA, but it never seems to happen here.

Try reading one of the other 30 threads on this topic.  We really don't need a new one.

From looking at lawschoolnumbers.com there were blacks that got into top schools with 2.8 gpas. What's going on? I just feel Affirmative Action is destorying our country. A man's work should speak for itself. No pitty points should be given. And I love it when people classify me as a racist because I'm against AA. People wake up . . . dont you see what's going on?

I have no respect for blacks that go into law school based on their skin color. It's reverse discrimination and you know it!! But the capitalist in you wont allow you to admit that you are wrong.

For the record i'm not racist. I have a best friend who is black.



Are you for or against AA?
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: The ZAPINATOR on November 10, 2004, 09:47:10 AM
This is a very tired topic. 

ZAP
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: JohnB. on November 10, 2004, 09:47:53 AM
Whenever someone says "I am not racist, I have A best friend who is Black", I think to myself wow, this person cannot be racist because he has 1 friend who is black. (NOT)
  Untill you have stepped in a black person's shoes, I cannot speak for other races here because I don't know how they are treated, you cannot possibly know what they go through on a daily basis.
 Affirmative Action is not enough to right the wrongs that so many black people go through today.
 Even so called unracist people have stereotypical ideas of what a black person is like, and how they act.
 I am not even going to continue with my argument to your offensice passage, it doesn't warrant any more of my time.
 
 Keep your ignorant views to yourself.

Oh shut up.  I sick of reading prissy posts from people like you.  Before you accuse people of being racist for oppsoing AA, please define exactly what it is that makes a person racist.  If you can't or won't then STFU.

Exactly.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Saint Willy on November 10, 2004, 09:52:19 AM
the OP is misssing one crucial point.

if things WERE equal, then that urm probably wouldn't have a 2.8 GPA. That is the whole point...

If things were equal you would be competing against URMs with higher numbers....AA just adds to the numbers to make it as if things were equal.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Faminesucks on November 10, 2004, 09:55:10 AM
Oh shut up.  I sick of reading prissy posts from people like you.  Before you accuse people of being racist for oppsoing AA, please define exactly what it is that makes a person racist.  If you can't or won't then STFU.

 ACTUALLY DICKLOBE, THAT COMMENT WAS A RACIST ONE, NOT BEING BLACK YOU WOULDN'T UNDERSTAND. YOU ARE A BIG male private part AS I SEE FROM YOUR POSTS HERE AND ON XOXO, NOONE REALLY LIKES YOU AND I DOUBT YOU WILL GET INTO ANY OF THE TOP 5.
 
 YOU THINK YOU ARE SO GREAT BUT WHAT ARE YOU REALLY? AN UGLY GUY WHO HAS TO TRY AND SHOW OFF AND GET PEOPLE TO VOTE ABOUT HIS LOOKS AND TALK ABOUT WHETHER HE SHOULD HAVE SEX OR NOT COS HE MADE A PROMISE TO GOD?

 YOU ARE A VILE HUMAN BEING WHO LOW SELF-ESTEEM AND A BIG JERK!!
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: JohnB. on November 10, 2004, 09:55:54 AM
I've probably posted in the past on this subject, and I'm not goint to repeat myself now.

Really, go read the other threads.  There's more than enough of them.  Your views are not novel.  You add nothing new, adn I guarantee you can find at least 2-3 posts that are almost identical to yours.

AA discussions on this board go round and round, and devolve into accusations of racism from both sides.  Nothing is accomplished, and they quickly loose whatever qualities an intelligent discourse might have.  Maybe somewhere else in the world people can have an intelligent, thought-provoking conversation on AA, but it never seems to happen here.

Try reading one of the other 30 threads on this topic.  We really don't need a new one.

From looking at lawschoolnumbers.com there were blacks that got into top schools with 2.8 gpas. What's going on? I just feel Affirmative Action is destorying our country. A man's work should speak for itself. No pitty points should be given. And I love it when people classify me as a racist because I'm against AA. People wake up . . . dont you see what's going on?

I have no respect for blacks that go into law school based on their skin color. It's reverse discrimination and you know it!! But the capitalist in you wont allow you to admit that you are wrong.

For the record i'm not racist. I have a best friend who is black.



Are you for or against AA?

Ok I dont want to argue either. But are you for or against? Yes or no.

You should be able to feel free to state your opinions.

If you are for AA I wont bite your head off. I should'nt have to search to find out your opinion on AA . . . you should be able to state them.

Is that what goes on in law school? people hide thier beliefs because they are afraid to get into an argument? Seems a bit passive to me.



Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Fred Hits on November 10, 2004, 10:04:29 AM
I agree that AA could be viewed as reverse discrimation, however, I feel the real tragedy is the stigma AA has on truly qualified minorities. Consider for instance, a friend of mine, who is in my opinion a really smart brilliant African-American. We get about the same grades, I have a 3.93 and he has a 3.8 something, his LSAT was in the 98Th percentile, mine in the 96Th, but he has told me that he believes once he gets to law school everyone will think he got there because of AA and that my friend's is bull. Undoubtedly, there are minorities who dont have the "strict numbers" but we shouldnt pass judgement on all minorities. Some of them are just as qualified as typical applicants. I would also urge people against AA to spend a wk in North Phildelphia or some other poor minority ubran center, and ask yourself this question: Is it really possible for this individual considering his circumstances to score in the 99th percentile on the LSAT? It's difficult to get a good score even when you have everything going for you.

I think you really hit the nail on the head with the AA problem, though my final conclusion might be slightly different then yours.  It makes qualified minority apps seem like they only got in on race which is completely unfair to that person-  north philly point is a good one- AA needs to take more consideration into actual background; whether you be a poor black, hispanic, asian, or white- yes maybe most people from north philly are black, that doesn't mean to compensate schools should just take any black- they should take people from a similar econ setting
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: mfitz on November 10, 2004, 10:11:21 AM
I don't understand why this is true:

if things WERE equal, then that urm probably wouldn't have a 2.8 GPA. That is the whole point...
.

I graduated with a 4.0 from a high school that was 95% African American.  Could I argue that I was discriminated against because I was White?  Why not?

Your education is what you make of it.  If a black guy only comes out with a 3.2 and I come out of the same university with a 3.6, why should he get special treatment?
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: liberty shark on November 10, 2004, 10:13:49 AM
hmm... another AA post.  my verdict:  faminesucks needs to read more.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: ohwellok on November 10, 2004, 10:21:42 AM
i think that it is really unfair to look at a person's gpa and decide that they were accepted to a law school solely on the basis of race.  you don't know anything about what that person's total application package was like.  i've read tons of posts on lsd from people who are hoping that really solid parts of their application will make up for numbers they would like an admissions committee to overlook.  although this person didn't have a high gpa, it is entirely possible that they wrote a kick ass personal statement.  or maybe they had some really impressive work, volunteer, or life experience.  perhaps they had wonderful letters of recommendation that proved them to be a great applicant despite a low gpa.  as many discussions on lsd have shown, there is a lot of time and effort that goes into portraying yourself as an oustanding candidate via your application.  if a person got into a law school with a low gpa, there MUST have been something else that caught the eye of the admissions committee.  it's not like they want to set people up for failure in law school, so this person must have proved themselves to be a worthy applicant in another way.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: sheaday on November 10, 2004, 10:37:49 AM
It's so pointless to argue about something that none of us can change. 
People assume things all the time- that a black person got into a school simply because of AA, how someone who goes to a top school is only there because their daddy bought their way in, etc etc. 

To the OP: There are a million AA threads on this board, you dont need to start more.  Go study for the LSAT, work on your personal statement, do some applications instead of sitting here complaining about something no one here has any control over.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Tom on November 10, 2004, 10:47:03 AM
i think all of you, including the OP, are missing the real problem here... the issue is undoubtedly that the OP doest not have the numbers he needs to get into the schools he wishes to attend... so rather than adjust his expectations to accomodate this fact, he has decided he will bash minorities and AA.

I disagree with the above.  I do have the numbers to get in just about any law school out there and I agree to a certain extent with Bolster07.
I feel one should be judged  based on the numbers and life experience (and what one has overcome), not the color of ones skin be it black, white, yellow, or red!
I think some of you should read Ayn Rand.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: superiorlobe on November 10, 2004, 10:54:04 AM
Oh shut up.  I sick of reading prissy posts from people like you.  Before you accuse people of being racist for oppsoing AA, please define exactly what it is that makes a person racist.  If you can't or won't then STFU.

 ACTUALLY DICKLOBE, THAT COMMENT WAS A RACIST ONE, NOT BEING BLACK YOU WOULDN'T UNDERSTAND. YOU ARE A BIG male private part AS I SEE FROM YOUR POSTS HERE AND ON XOXO, NOONE REALLY LIKES YOU AND I DOUBT YOU WILL GET INTO ANY OF THE TOP 5.
 
 YOU THINK YOU ARE SO GREAT BUT WHAT ARE YOU REALLY? AN UGLY GUY WHO HAS TO TRY AND SHOW OFF AND GET PEOPLE TO VOTE ABOUT HIS LOOKS AND TALK ABOUT WHETHER HE SHOULD HAVE SEX OR NOT COS HE MADE A PROMISE TO GOD?

 YOU ARE A VILE HUMAN BEING WHO LOW SELF-ESTEEM AND A BIG JERK!!

Wow.  evidently one of my best trolls ever.  I'm quoting it for the sake of posterity.  Also, it appears that you think anyone who holds an opinion you don't like is racist.   ::)  Now I don't think that you are racist for thinking that, but I do think you are stupid for thinking that.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: mivida2k on November 10, 2004, 10:57:05 AM
HERE HERE Jacy!!!


Try reading one of the other 30 threads on this topic.  We really don't need a new one.

From looking at lawschoolnumbers.com there were blacks that got into top schools with 2.8 gpas. What's going on? I just feel Affirmative Action is destorying our country. A man's work should speak for itself. No pitty points should be given. And I love it when people classify me as a racist because I'm against AA. People wake up . . . dont you see what's going on?

I have no respect for blacks that go into law school based on their skin color. It's reverse discrimination and you know it!! But the capitalist in you wont allow you to admit that you are wrong.

For the record i'm not racist. I have a best friend who is black.

Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: mivida2k on November 10, 2004, 11:01:57 AM
Whites benefit from AA as well.  One of my boys, and yes he was white, was from an economic disadvantaged background.  He belonged to the AA group.  AA is not just raced based.  AA includes gender, economic disadvatages, disabilities, etc.

This topic is getting old.  Why is it that whenever a minority gets in to a school somehow they must not have been as qualified as you?  This seems like a "i need to feel better about myself" thread.  And if you want to talk about numbers, maybe you need to go to LSAC's website and look at the the race breakdown.  Most schools are at least 75% white, so where are all these minorities taking your spot.

This is my last comment on any of these threads on AA.

HBCU, where R U?
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: psr13 on November 10, 2004, 11:22:10 AM
I agree that AA could be viewed as reverse discrimation, however, I feel the real tragedy is the stigma AA has on truly qualified minorities. Consider for instance, a friend of mine, who is in my opinion a really smart brilliant African-American. We get about the same grades, I have a 3.93 and he has a 3.8 something, his LSAT was in the 98Th percentile, mine in the 96Th, but he has told me that he believes once he gets to law school everyone will think he got there because of AA and that my friend's is bull. Undoubtedly, there are minorities who dont have the "strict numbers" but we shouldnt pass judgement on all minorities. Some of them are just as qualified as typical applicants. I would also urge people against AA to spend a wk in North Phildelphia or some other poor minority ubran center, and ask yourself this question: Is it really possible for this individual considering his circumstances to score in the 99th percentile on the LSAT? It's difficult to get a good score even when you have everything going for you.

I lived in a poor minority city. It is possible to do extrlemely well. All you have to do is work hard. Yes, where I lived was not North Philadelphia. In my honors english class the kids couldn't even read the books. They didn't speak enpugh english to know what it was saying. Just because I'm white I get no consideration. I went to the same schools that URM's go to. How dare I be white. Just so you people who will label me a racist know, I don't hang out with a lot of white people. I mostly have Mexican and Vietnamese friends.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: The ZAPINATOR on November 10, 2004, 11:26:04 AM
Oh shut up.  I sick of reading prissy posts from people like you.  Before you accuse people of being racist for oppsoing AA, please define exactly what it is that makes a person racist.  If you can't or won't then STFU.

 ACTUALLY DICKLOBE, THAT COMMENT WAS A RACIST ONE, NOT BEING BLACK YOU WOULDN'T UNDERSTAND. YOU ARE A BIG male private part AS I SEE FROM YOUR POSTS HERE AND ON XOXO, NOONE REALLY LIKES YOU AND I DOUBT YOU WILL GET INTO ANY OF THE TOP 5.
 
 YOU THINK YOU ARE SO GREAT BUT WHAT ARE YOU REALLY? AN UGLY GUY WHO HAS TO TRY AND SHOW OFF AND GET PEOPLE TO VOTE ABOUT HIS LOOKS AND TALK ABOUT WHETHER HE SHOULD HAVE SEX OR NOT COS HE MADE A PROMISE TO GOD?

 YOU ARE A VILE HUMAN BEING WHO LOW SELF-ESTEEM AND A BIG JERK!!

Or maybe he's trolling because he's trying to make you think?  Ever stop to think about that one for a second?  I for one see a clear pattern and method to the madness, and consider myself a Lobe supporter, as unpopular as it may be to be one.

ZAP
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: A_guy on November 10, 2004, 11:30:55 AM
I don't understand why this is true:

if things WERE equal, then that urm probably wouldn't have a 2.8 GPA. That is the whole point...
.

I graduated with a 4.0 from a high school that was 95% African American.  Could I argue that I was discriminated against because I was White?  Why not?

Your education is what you make of it.  If a black guy only comes out with a 3.2 and I come out of the same university with a 3.6, why should he get special treatment?

your education is what u make of it.  but explain how prepared u will be when u r using outdated text books, have no computers in the classroom, an administration that would rather label u as a special ed student than look at ur situation and realize u can't concentrate b/c ur hungry.  how can u make the most of that?  people from poor areas are will always be at a disadvantage and spend more time playing catch up in college if they can get there.  had that person had the same tools as a white person with access to more resources they might have been able to get that 3.6 or higher.

in the end maybe AA should focus on economic background but then again i see that as being pointless.  even though affirmative action could be based on economic disadvantage it would not provide for accurate representation in schools and the workforce.  

in a society that has excluded minorities for so long, it would not be surprising to see many more poor white people in colleges and jobs, than blks, latinos and whatever.  if we are gonna talk about AA we need to be honest.  if poor whites fall under AA and the people making decisions are white they will be more likely to pick the white guy over the minority and feel good about it b/c they are following affirmative action.  studies have shown that we chose people based on our perceptions and comfort levels.  so the impact of basing AA on socio-economic background could lead to a situation where minorities will be exluded on the same levels or greater levels than in the past.

and just for the record i am not racist one of my closets friends is white ;D

Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: grizzly on November 10, 2004, 11:45:45 AM
I understand many people are not interested in this topic (yet seem unable to resist posting).  However, here's a draft of an article to be published in the next issue of the Stanford Law Review by a law professor from UCLA for those who are interested:

http://www1.law.ucla.edu/~sander/Documents/Draft%2011-01-04.pdf

(Disclosure:  I was accepted at the one and only law school I applied to and am against AA on principle.)
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: JohnB. on November 10, 2004, 11:55:55 AM
Ok whats a OP?

Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: desi on November 10, 2004, 11:57:51 AM
OP = original poster.

and OP, wait until you get to law school.  you will see how few minorities there really are.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: MBUSA on November 10, 2004, 12:11:10 PM
To those who think this we shouldn't post topics about AA because there have already been countless others:
I can appreciate some of the frustration in having to hear about the same topic over and over, all the while knowing that nothing new is truly being said. (Arguments about AA and a living wage are repeated to no end on my campus.) But, please understand that most of these new AA topics are started by individuals like me who haven't been around LSD very long. While we could just read old topics, we gain a certain satisfaction in presenting our own views, no matter how rehashed they may be.
It is good to know that others have written about views similar to our own in the past, but instead of telling us to stop writing, it may be better to just let us speak our peace and simply ignore the thread. You can generally spot an AA thread a mile away...
Still, I appreciate the warning that these threads generally degenerate into ad hominem attacks about individual's personal racism. I believe it is best not to justify any point by claiming someone else is racist. It is not constructive.

My views on AA: To gain my own personal satisfaction, I'll throw in my two cents.

First, I think many people believe that AA is meant to be compensation for low socioeconomic status by proxy. I reject this belief. If you live in a poor, largely minority neighborhood with the same conditions as minorites but are White, you do not deserve AA. You may deserve some compensation for your lack of opportunities, but AA is not meant to level this playing field.

AA has two justifications. The first is diversity. I don't understand this justification well, so I'll stay away from it.
The second is that being a minority has inherent disadvantages which must be balanced out. While many people don't believe this claim, theories like stereotype threat (Claude Steele), implicit association, and dynamic social networking provide enough justification to make it a reasonable belief for colleges to hold. Although I think there are problems with AA, I can at least see where colleges are coming from.

Finally, I have to say I think AA should not be implemeneted. Even assuming that minorities face inherent disadvantages, the implementation has far too many problems. Those individuals who are hurt least gain the most. The system can easily be gamed by white individuals. AA is incorrectly used by some as a band-aid for socioeconomic disparity. While a working system may be useful, until one can be reasonably implemented, I think we should drop AA in college admissions entirely.

Wow, I feel quite satisfied...
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: nekko on November 10, 2004, 12:20:06 PM
1) People get angry about it because AA is racially discriminatory. You can argue that it's for some greater good but if you believe racial discrimination to be a particularly strong form of injustice (which I think most people do) then don't pretend as though it's some small policy issue that only people with inferior numbers could get emotional about.

2) People make assumptions about minorities who benefit from AA because AA is such a huge boost. Sure it could've been a great essay that got them in, saving the President, etc. but we all know that law schools are largely stat driven. We sometimes try to convince ourselves otherwise (i.e. "even though my numbers aren't great maybe my essay will get me into Harvard") we know that it's almost entirely based upon GPA and LSAT (with notable but rare exceptions such as Boalt). Does this mean that every black, hispanic whatever person has inferior credentials or got in soley because of AA? No of course not. But we shouldn't pretend that the bulk of minorities accepted through AA would have been accepted anyway. That's the whole reason we have AA. If they'd be getting in absent AA in any sort of significant numbers we wouldn't have AA.

3) As the study linked above indicates there's some question as to whether AA is actually beneficial (at least specifically in law school admissions and black applicants) in terms of generating more black lawyers. The study makes a pretty compelling case that because of the "academic mismatch" it results in lower grades and lower bar passage rates which ultimately decrease the output of lawyers. Although it does argue that the benefits of prestige tend to outweigh the negative impact of lower grades at top 10 schools it makes the case that the practices at these schools has a cascading effect which harms the majority of black law students.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: ElizaB on November 10, 2004, 02:14:39 PM

First, I think many people believe that AA is meant to be compensation for low socioeconomic status by proxy. I reject this belief.


Thank you! 
I keep reading posts on this thread (and every other one about AA) justifying it by using the economic disadvantage excuse! The majority of minorities being excepted into law school and medical school are not economically disadvantged.   

Look at the median household incomes for minorities accepted law schools and medical schools and you will find that the majority of these student do not come from economically disadvantge backgrounds!  The household incomes and education levels of these students' parents is very high across all of the ethnicities!  The median household incomes for black students accepted into American Medical Schools was $50,000.  For Mexican Americans, it was $48,000 and for Native Americans it was $55,000.  For Asians, the median household income was $80,000.  None of these incomes are anywhere near the poverty level!  64.7% of blacks (I'm using this term because this is the term used in the Association of American Medical Colleges report I am getting these stats from) and 74.4% of the Asians accepted into medical school had mother's with a college degree!  The whites had a lower percentage than either one of these two groups with only 61% of them having a college degree.

At any rate, my point is not whether AA is right or wrong...or whether it seeks to make up for other disdvantages that being a minority imposes on people.  I am simply saying that the argument justifying AA due to economic disadvantage is incorrect.  The minorities that are being accepted into graduate schools are not being accepted based on their "economic disadvantage."
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: ElizaB on November 10, 2004, 02:23:45 PM
I think I need to add this:
I'm not necesarily opposed to Affirmative Action and I am certainly not saying that there are not people out there who are accepted on the basis of their economic disadvantage...I'm just saying that the majority of minorities are not accepted on the basis of their "economic" disadvantage.  I realize that there are disadvantages that minorities must overcome in life completely unrelated to their economic status.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: linquest on November 10, 2004, 02:30:07 PM
I have no respect for blacks that go into law school based on their skin color. It's reverse discrimination and you know it!! But the capitalist in you wont allow you to admit that you are wrong.

For the record i'm not racist. I have a best friend who is black.

As previously mentioned, AA "benefits" a lot of different groups, not just blacks.  Yet they're the only group that you're railing against.  This is why you come off as racist.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: nekko on November 10, 2004, 03:16:42 PM
Many other groups benefit from AA but blacks are pretty much the reason we have AA because of the special history we have in terms of discrimination and oppression so if one is to decry affirmative action I don't think it's racist to focus on black beneficiaries because ultimately that's the group we focus on to judge success.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: mivida2k on November 10, 2004, 03:47:16 PM
White womne have benefitted the most from AA.

If you don't believe me - do your own research.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: nekko on November 10, 2004, 03:55:41 PM
Even if true it doesn't really counter the point and in the specific case of law school admissions which we're discussing I don't think it's true at all. I think everyone is willing to concede that groups other than blacks benefit now and have benefited in the past from affirmative action. But we have affirmative action because of the specific injustices experienced by blacks in America. If every minority except blacks were underrepresented we would not have affirmative action in law school admissions.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Regal_Muse on November 10, 2004, 04:28:51 PM
To the original poster:

I'm going to steal your seat. HAHAHAHAHAHA!  :-* ;D

LONG LIVE A.A!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: TrojanChispas on November 10, 2004, 04:47:13 PM
lets stipulate to these facts and argue from there:
1. minorities (blacks and hispanics) are woefully underrepresented in the professions and overrepresented in prisons
2. as it stand now, without AA minorities would remain underrepresented at least in law school
3. racism is still alive and well in the US in many areas
4. minority communities are still struggling affected by the history of racism in this country. that is, generations of qualified blacks and hispanics have been denied opportunities including but not limited to education which has put their communities in a disadvantaged position.
5. teh public is not willing to spend the resources to specifically correct the effects of #4

these are the facts that convince me that in the absence of another system, AA is all that the minority communites have been given as compensation for their decades of unfair treatment
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: JohnB. on November 10, 2004, 05:04:35 PM
To the original poster:

I'm going to steal your seat. HAHAHAHAHAHA!  :-* ;D

LONG LIVE A.A!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




What is so funny? We are having a mature conversation here. Are rubbing AA in my face?

Loser . . .

Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: superiorlobe on November 10, 2004, 05:05:47 PM
She also has a 175, I think.  If that doesn't mean Yale, I don't know what does.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: nekko on November 10, 2004, 05:21:41 PM
Quote
1. minorities (blacks and hispanics) are woefully underrepresented in the professions and overrepresented in prisons
Don't know the numbers for hispanics. But unless I get some other information okay that sounds like a reasonable stipulation.

Quote
2. as it stand now, without AA minorities would remain underrepresented at least in law school
This stipulation is too broad. They'd be underrepresented at Harvard, Yale, etc. but the further down you went the more likely the numbers would be proportional.

Quote
3. racism is still alive and well in the US in many areas
Fair enough.

Quote
4. minority communities are still struggling affected by the history of racism in this country. that is, generations of qualified blacks and hispanics have been denied opportunities including but not limited to education which has put their communities in a disadvantaged position.
I'd argue with the causes you stipulate but for the purposes of this discussion, fine.

Quote
5. teh public is not willing to spend the resources to specifically correct the effects of #4
This isn't exactly true. The public has spent large amounts of resources on various policies all with the clear intention of correcting the problems of #4. The fact that such policies have been unsuccessful is not the same as the public being unwilling to spend the resources.

Some further stipulations though:

6) The blacks who are the typical beneficiaries of AA (at least in law school) are blacks who are much more well off than those in the communities you cite in #4.

7) While racism is alive and well in the U.S. there isn't any clear racism against blacks by law school admissions.

8 ) Affirmative action by allowing individuals with much lower credentials into law school is not only discriminatory (against whites and every group not covered by AA) but statistically can be shown to result in much lower GPAs when in law school and much lower bar passage rates compared to their peers (unless you want to argue that the cause of lower achievement is something other than the lowering entering credentials of many AA applicants).

9) Even if outweighed by the benefits there is a high cost to affirmative action because it is by its nature a racist practice.

10) If overall achievement by blacks is harmed by AA in law schools then even if individual blacks may benefit it is not a worthwhile practice (i.e. if 10 blacks get great jobs but 50 blacks get harmed by the practice almost no matter how much better off those 10 are the practice is not worthwhile).
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Regal_Muse on November 10, 2004, 05:28:05 PM
She also has a 175, I think.  If that doesn't mean Yale, I don't know what does.
She also has a 175, I think. If that doesn't mean Yale, I don't know what does.

173 luv..but close enough LOL.

I'm not getting my hopes up for Yale...You have to feed hungry children in Africa, win the Noble Peace Prize, and be Native American.

Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: mivida2k on November 10, 2004, 06:11:43 PM
What schools are you talking about?  WE must be looking at different LSAC ABA information.



Quote
1. minorities (blacks and hispanics) are woefully underrepresented in the professions and overrepresented in prisons
Don't know the numbers for hispanics. But unless I get some other information okay that sounds like a reasonable stipulation.

Quote
2. as it stand now, without AA minorities would remain underrepresented at least in law school
This stipulation is too broad. They'd be underrepresented at Harvard, Yale, etc. but the further down you went the more likely the numbers would be proportional.

Quote
3. racism is still alive and well in the US in many areas
Fair enough.

Quote
4. minority communities are still struggling affected by the history of racism in this country. that is, generations of qualified blacks and hispanics have been denied opportunities including but not limited to education which has put their communities in a disadvantaged position.
I'd argue with the causes you stipulate but for the purposes of this discussion, fine.

Quote
5. teh public is not willing to spend the resources to specifically correct the effects of #4
This isn't exactly true. The public has spent large amounts of resources on various policies all with the clear intention of correcting the problems of #4. The fact that such policies have been unsuccessful is not the same as the public being unwilling to spend the resources.

Some further stipulations though:

6) The blacks who are the typical beneficiaries of AA (at least in law school) are blacks who are much more well off than those in the communities you cite in #4.

7) While racism is alive and well in the U.S. there isn't any clear racism against blacks by law school admissions.

8 ) Affirmative action by allowing individuals with much lower credentials into law school is not only discriminatory (against whites and every group not covered by AA) but statistically can be shown to result in much lower GPAs when in law school and much lower bar passage rates compared to their peers (unless you want to argue that the cause of lower achievement is something other than the lowering entering credentials of many AA applicants).

9) Even if outweighed by the benefits there is a high cost to affirmative action because it is by its nature a racist practice.

10) If overall achievement by blacks is harmed by AA in law schools then even if individual blacks may benefit it is not a worthwhile practice (i.e. if 10 blacks get great jobs but 50 blacks get harmed by the practice almost no matter how much better off those 10 are the practice is not worthwhile).
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: ElizaB on November 10, 2004, 08:21:09 PM
Here is an intersting article on AA, if anybody is interested:
http://www.bc.edu/schools/law/lawreviews/meta-elements/journals/bclawr/43_3/01_FMS.htm

I'm just wondering, why doesn't the NBA have AA?
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Casper on November 10, 2004, 08:29:08 PM
Competitive sports.  Although, you can sue NBA under ADA regulations, and have them change their rules.   ;D
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: ElizaB on November 10, 2004, 08:33:34 PM
Maybe I should sue the NBA and say that women are under represented!
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Casper on November 10, 2004, 08:38:34 PM
Maybe I should sue the NBA and say that women are under represented!

No, not really, since there's WNBA. 
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: shiveringjenny on November 10, 2004, 08:41:51 PM
::laughs:: the WNBA.

Let's be serious.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: ElizaB on November 10, 2004, 08:42:14 PM
OK...I must admit that I have been drinking and I don't even play basketball.

At any rate, I have been doing some research on this thing and I have come across some interesting statistics.  Apparently, AA is now helping URM males the most.  URM females make up about 60% of the URM applicants but only about 49% of enrolled URM.  
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Casper on November 10, 2004, 08:44:51 PM
::laughs:: the WNBA.

Let's be serious.

You're looking for a pro-ball that's coed?   ;D
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: NYKnicks on November 10, 2004, 08:47:11 PM
the women do shoot jumpers better than the men on some occasions...
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Casper on November 10, 2004, 09:07:44 PM
I'll pay to watch men body checking female players and the placing the hand on their ass, ops.  I mean when men are guarding the female players. 
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: ElizaB on November 10, 2004, 09:09:00 PM
::laughs:: the WNBA.

Let's be serious.

You're looking for a pro-ball that's coed?   ;D

Sure...why not?  Let's make the NFL coed, too.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: NYKnicks on November 10, 2004, 09:11:29 PM
I'll pay to watch men body checking female players and the placing the hand on their ass, ops.  I mean when men are guarding the female players. 

have you seen the men and women in the NBA and WNBA? are you sure you want this?
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: ElizaB on November 10, 2004, 09:17:22 PM
One out of three young African American (ages 18 to 35) men in the United States are in prison or on some form of supervised release. The drug war is clearly a race war. Our country has more African American men in prison than in college.We call ourselves the Land of the Free, yet we have a four times higher percentage of Black men in prison than South Africa at the height of apartheid, an official national policy of institutionalized racism.

Sources: Substance Abuseand Mental Health Services Administration, National Household Survey on Drug Abuse: Population Estimates 1996, Rockville, MD: Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (1997), p. 19,Table 2D;
Bureau of Justice Statistics, Sourcebook of Criminal Justice Statistics 1996, Washington D.C.: U.S. Government Printing Office(1997), p. 382, Table 4.10, and p. 533, Table6.36;
Bureau of Justice Statistics, Prisoners in 1996, Washington D.C.: U.S. Government Printing Office (1997), p. 10, Table13.

I found this...perhaps this suggests a good reason for AA!
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Casper on November 10, 2004, 09:48:36 PM
Is that your best possible solution?   :-[
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: shiveringjenny on November 10, 2004, 09:54:20 PM
http://www.tshirthell.com/store/product.php?productid=332
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: ElizaB on November 10, 2004, 09:56:45 PM
I honestly have no idea how to fix things.

I am, to some degree, agains AA and, at the same time, for AA.  I think it is great for those whom it helps, but I think that most of the URM's that it helps aren't the ones who truly need it.  Does that make any sense?
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Casper on November 10, 2004, 10:48:53 PM
I honestly have no idea how to fix things.

I am, to some degree, agains AA and, at the same time, for AA.  I think it is great for those whom it helps, but I think that most of the URM's that it helps aren't the ones who truly need it.  Does that make any sense?


 :-* 
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: amelus on November 10, 2004, 11:34:06 PM
has the issue of whether ppl who are far less prepared (e.g. far lower lsat score/far lower gpa) for any given law school than their peers at that particular law school end up struggling far more in law school (if they make it through it) and end up with worse job prospects and/or greater sense of insecurity been discussed in this thread?

i know they have been debated, but several studies have argued that in fact ppl (regardless of race) benefit far more by attending a school within their range of abilities and working hard to end up at top of class then attending one where they feel overwhelmed by everyone around them.

(yes, i recognize exceptions to every rule and that many ppl with low lsat scores and low gpa's relative to their peers in a given law school end up at top of class, but that is the exception)
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: shiveringjenny on November 10, 2004, 11:43:47 PM
a new study is out that's all the rage in the anti-affirmative action circles: http://chronicle.com/temp/email.php?id=innowvzyamrwiiidxzy2et99qaxep6yc
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Doubledown Trent on November 11, 2004, 12:15:53 AM
Can I post on this since I've never posted about AA before?  I realize that being Asian doesn't make me a URM in law schools, but I'm a part of the minority community in the U.S.  That being said, I'm against AA because of how it hurts people on the individual level.  I would hate to be that white dude who doesn't get even though I've worked my ass off and am more qualified because of what others of my race have done/are doing.  Racism is a problem in this country, but this is absolutely the wrong way to fix it.  If I accomplish something, I want to know that it was based on my merits, not my race.  I'm sure everyone can agree with that.  Minorities should fight discrimination without resorting to discrimination.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Regal_Muse on November 11, 2004, 01:01:57 AM
Can I post on this since I've never posted about AA before?  I realize that being Asian doesn't make me a URM in law schools, but I'm a part of the minority community in the U.S.  That being said, I'm against AA because of how it hurts people on the individual level.  I would hate to be that white dude who doesn't get even though I've worked my ass off and am more qualified because of what others of my race have done/are doing.  Racism is a problem in this country, but this is absolutely the wrong way to fix it.  If I accomplish something, I want to know that it was based on my merits, not my race.  I'm sure everyone can agree with that.  Minorities should fight discrimination without resorting to discrimination.

A.A arguments really humor me. If anyone has bothered to do their research, A.A. has benefited white women more so than minorities. Honestly, if I meet an individual in law school that has a problem because they believe I do not deserve to be there, then so be it. I'm not in law school to impress some bigots. Admissions aren’t just about numbers; which is what everyone's argument is being based off of. Admissions can't possibly hold someone who comes form a low socioeconomic class, faces racism on a daily basis, and went to poorly equipped schools to be held to the same standard as someone who grew up privileged. Get the F*ck out of here. I'm trying by best to keep my sense of humor about these ridiculous topics, but every time I read another A.A thread, my buttons get pushed and I become offended. The subtle racism that exists on these boards never ceases to amaze me. I honestly believe that mainstream/Anglo/white society really isn't ready for equality. Little Susan and Billy have issues with minorities trying to move up the socio-economic ladder by getting an education, so they use the "reverse" racism argument. Then again, with Bush in office for another four years and the likely appointment of four ultra conservative, right-winger Justices, most of you assholes might get your wish. Hey instead of going to Harvard Law, I might as well start picking cotton and saying yes ma'am, no sir.

Oh Mastah, I cants read. I swear...I just likes the purty pictures in dis here book! Please don't whip me. I'ms a good n-word. No need fors me to get nos educations! I'm happy right here taking care of des fine churldren! ::)
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Doubledown Trent on November 11, 2004, 01:10:27 AM
Muse, did you quote my post for a reason?  If not, disregard what I'm saying.  But if so, I have no idea what you're talking about.  All I said was that people should not be judged no race and you're acting as if I'm saying black should be slaves.  WTF?  Seriously, I don't know how in the world you're getting this.  Yeah, people from poor backgrounds have it a lot tougher than others and that should be taken into consideration.  But I know for a fact that my N-A friend in hs did not have it tough, but some admissions board may assume he did because he's N-A.  Idiotic.  So that's why I'm saying it should be on a case-by-case basis.  Again, if you didn't mean to quote what I said, ignore everything I said.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: brirobs on November 11, 2004, 01:53:28 AM
All I said was that people should not be judged no race

That's all fine and dandy, but it's not reality.  Blacks get judged by their race daily and unlike AA in law schools, it's not favorable.  It's so funny how people come out in droves to argue that AA is unfair, it's reverse racism, but these same people aren't screaming foul at the same unfair treatment that blacks get in our society.  I don't buy anybody's anti-AA bull, because the majority of anti-AA people are opportunistic and only loathe racism or injustice when it affects them. 
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Doubledown Trent on November 11, 2004, 02:16:12 AM
All I said was that people should not be judged no race

That's all fine and dandy, but it's not reality.  Blacks get judged by their race daily and unlike AA in law schools, it's not favorable.  It's so funny how people come out in droves to argue that AA is unfair, it's reverse racism, but these same people aren't screaming foul at the same unfair treatment that blacks get in our society.  I don't buy anybody's anti-AA bull, because the majority of anti-AA people are opportunistic and only loathe racism or injustice when it affects them. 

You are seriously mistaken if you think racism doesn't affect me, outside of law school admissions.  Just because people don't scream foul about unfair treatment of blacks doesn't make AA right.  They're both wrong.  My problem is that some people try to paint me as a racist for saying that racism of any type is wrong.  There is no such thing as reverse racism.  Racism is racism.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Spallenzani on November 11, 2004, 02:46:39 AM
White womne have benefitted the most from AA.

If you don't believe me - do your own research.

This may or not be true with regard to Affirmative Action in general, but it is certainly not true with regard to Affirimative Action in the law school application process. The last time I checked, women were in the majority of law school applicants and attendence, and no law schools I know of give bonus points to women.

Blacks (and to a lesser degree, a few other ethnic minorities) get a huge LSAT and GPA boost from many schools, which is rightly seen as unfair to other applicants.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Spallenzani on November 11, 2004, 03:00:50 AM
lets stipulate to these facts and argue from there:

2. as it stand now, without AA minorities would remain underrepresented at least in law school

This notion that certain groups are "underrepresented" conveniently assumes the very thing you are intending to prove: that blacks as a group deserve proportional representation in law school equal to or equivalent to their proportional representation in society as I whole.

I reject that premise as completely unfounded. The law school admissions process is not intended to create a microcosm of society within the law school, with an adequate representation of Republicans, Democrats, Christians, Jews (one should note that only a few generations ago, Harvard had a "Jewish quota" to limit the number of Jews that could attend, because the group was overrepresented), athiests, creationists, and so on and so forth. No, the law school admissions process is supposed to select those students who show the greatest potential at becoming future lawyers. Perhaps other considerations  should be made for people with special circumstances: overcoming poverty, disability, or specific discrimination that effected them personally. As other posters have mentioned previously in this thread, skin color serves as a poor proxy for adversity.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: SuicideNixon on November 11, 2004, 03:32:40 AM
Should fairness be the highest value in law school admissions? Do not forget that lawyers serve an essential purpose in our society. I don't need to tell anyone on this board that law school admissions are competitive in the sense that many qualified applicants are not admitted. I think that the unfairness done to individual applicants is less important than having a legal profession that is not dominated by one or two races and economic classes. Therefore, I think that a law school may justifiably look at two qualified applicants and decide to admit the one from the under-represented group, even if the other is more qualified in some sense.

By under-represented group I mean of course 1) a group that is under-represented and 2)a group whose being under-represented in the legal profession substantially affects society in a negative way. So novelty T-shirt wearers may be under-represented in the legal profession, but they are not an under-represented group in the sense I'm using it.

One can dispute whether any groups satisfy 2), but I think that if you agree that there are some groups like this then affirmative action for them is justified.

Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Tom on November 11, 2004, 04:22:13 AM
Can I post on this since I've never posted about AA before?  I realize that being Asian doesn't make me a URM in law schools, but I'm a part of the minority community in the U.S.  That being said, I'm against AA because of how it hurts people on the individual level.  I would hate to be that white dude who doesn't get even though I've worked my ass off and am more qualified because of what others of my race have done/are doing.  Racism is a problem in this country, but this is absolutely the wrong way to fix it.  If I accomplish something, I want to know that it was based on my merits, not my race.  I'm sure everyone can agree with that.  Minorities should fight discrimination without resorting to discrimination.



A.A arguments really humor me. If anyone has bothered to do their research, A.A. has benefited white women more so than minorities. Honestly, if I meet an individual in law school that has a problem because they believe I do not deserve to be there, then so be it. I'm not in law school to impress some bigots. Admissions aren’t just about numbers; which is what everyone's argument is being based off of. Admissions can't possibly hold someone who comes form a low socioeconomic class, faces racism on a daily basis, and went to poorly equipped schools to be held to the same standard as someone who grew up privileged. Get the F*ck out of here. I'm trying by best to keep my sense of humor about these ridiculous topics, but every time I read another A.A thread, my buttons get pushed and I become offended. The subtle racism that exists on these boards never ceases to amaze me. I honestly believe that mainstream/Anglo/white society really isn't ready for equality. Little Susan and Billy have issues with minorities trying to move up the socio-economic ladder by getting an education, so they use the "reverse" racism argument. Then again, with Bush in office for another four years and the likely appointment of four ultra conservative, right-winger Justices, most of you assholes might get your wish. Hey instead of going to Harvard Law, I might as well start picking cotton and saying yes ma'am, no sir.

Oh Mastah, I cants read. I swear...I just likes the purty pictures in dis here book! Please don't whip me. I'ms a good n-word. No need fors me to get nos educations! I'm happy right here taking care of des fine churldren! ::)

Just tell me why one should have an advantage just because of the color of their skin?  Socio-economic issues are something else.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: superiorlobe on November 11, 2004, 05:37:56 AM
Has anyone considered the possibility that, on average, Blacks are not as smart as Whites, who in turn are not as smart as Asians, who in turn are not as smart as Ashkenazic Jews?
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: ElizaB on November 11, 2004, 05:46:16 AM
White womne have benefitted the most from AA.

If you don't believe me - do your own research.

This may or not be true with regard to Affirmative Action in general, but it is certainly not true with regard to Affirimative Action in the law school application process. The last time I checked, women were in the majority of law school applicants and attendence, and no law schools I know of give bonus points to women.


The number of women applying to law school and medical school and most graduated programs have outnumbered men applying every year since 2000.  The only exceptions to this might be graduate engineering programs and some MBA programs.  However, there are still slightly fewer women being enrolled.  Black women make up 60% of those applying and only 48% of those enrolled.  Therefore, being a woman (black, white or purple) does not currently help you in anyway in the admissions process to law school!   
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Sequoia on November 11, 2004, 06:28:50 AM
SMH
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Sequoia on November 11, 2004, 07:28:35 AM
I agree with the ethos of LSD  . . . nothing good comes out of talking about AA.


Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Leviathan on November 11, 2004, 07:55:43 AM
Quote
The number of women applying to law school and medical school and most graduated programs have outnumbered men applying every year since 2000.  The only exceptions to this might be graduate engineering programs and some MBA programs.  However, there are still slightly fewer women being enrolled.  Black women make up 60% of those applying and only 48% of those enrolled.  Therefore, being a woman (black, white or purple) does not currently help you in anyway in the admissions process to law school!

This has to be the worst analysis I've ever seen in my life. You list evidence and then make some semblance of a conclusion...Honestly, I don't see how you can draw your conclusion from the statements given.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: superiorlobe on November 11, 2004, 07:57:08 AM
Quote
The number of women applying to law school and medical school and most graduated programs have outnumbered men applying every year since 2000.  The only exceptions to this might be graduate engineering programs and some MBA programs.  However, there are still slightly fewer women being enrolled.  Black women make up 60% of those applying and only 48% of those enrolled.  Therefore, being a woman (black, white or purple) does not currently help you in anyway in the admissions process to law school!


I agree.  The reasoning here is imbecilic.  Have you considered the possibility that although Black women make up 60% of those applying, then would only make up 2% of those enrolled unless they were given massive AA benefits?
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: JohnB. on November 11, 2004, 08:00:13 AM
The number of women applying to law school and medical school and most graduated programs have outnumbered men applying every year since 2000.  The only exceptions to this might be graduate engineering programs and some MBA programs.  However, there are still slightly fewer women being enrolled.  Black women make up 60% of those applying and only 48% of those enrolled.  Therefore, being a woman (black, white or purple) does not currently help you in anyway in the admissions process to law school!   

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Casper on November 11, 2004, 08:09:53 AM
LOL.  There should be a permanent ban on AA discussion on LSD.  Agree or disagree, the policy will continue to exist in the forseeable future.  Just as the notion, seperate but equal "seem" justifable, current AA policies as defined by the federal gov't in justified. 

You can live with the policy, or devote your entire legal career defending it or fighting against it.  Enough said.



Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: ElizaB on November 11, 2004, 08:16:57 AM
Quote
The number of women applying to law school and medical school and most graduated programs have outnumbered men applying every year since 2000.  The only exceptions to this might be graduate engineering programs and some MBA programs.  However, there are still slightly fewer women being enrolled.  Black women make up 60% of those applying and only 48% of those enrolled.  Therefore, being a woman (black, white or purple) does not currently help you in anyway in the admissions process to law school!


I agree.  The reasoning here is imbecilic.  Have you considered the possibility that although Black women make up 60% of those applying, then would only make up 2% of those enrolled unless they were given massive AA benefits?

I think you are misinterpreting what I wrote.  I'm not comparing the African American women applying to the general population....I'm comparing them to the population of the blacks in law school.  I am saying that a larger percentage of men are accepted. Black women make up 60% of the African-American population applying but only 48% of the African American population that is enrolled.  I realize that there is a possibility that African American men could have  higher numbers than the women....but it doesn't seem like this would account for that much of a discrepancy.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: ElizaB on November 11, 2004, 08:22:37 AM
The number of women applying to law school and medical school and most graduated programs have outnumbered men applying every year since 2000.  The only exceptions to this might be graduate engineering programs and some MBA programs.  However, there are still slightly fewer women being enrolled.  Black women make up 60% of those applying and only 48% of those enrolled.  Therefore, being a woman (black, white or purple) does not currently help you in anyway in the admissions process to law school!   

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm sorry but I don't understand why anything I said is funny or why my reasoning is incorrect.  More women than men (of all races) apply to law school (and Med School) and, yet, there are fewer accepted.  I am simply saying that if AA was helping us out so much, than more (not less) women would be in law school.

Please explain.  I really want to understand.   
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Leviathan on November 11, 2004, 08:33:34 AM
your conclusion is still unwarranted. Your whole analysis creates a causal link between application percentage and acceptance. The percetage of applications from a particular group is irrelevant. If women outnumbered men in the applicaton process and only got 50% of the seats, but had on average sub-par scores than men, then it is possible that women still receive affirmative action. The evidence you give is weak and the links are silly at best.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: grizzly on November 11, 2004, 08:44:14 AM
From the LSAC Amicus brief in the U Mich case:

"The raw numbers are startling. For the fall 2002 entering class, there were a total of 4,461 law school applicants who had both LSAT scores of 165 or above and UGPA of 3.5 or above. Of that number, a total of just 29 were black. LSAC, National Decision Profiles, 2001-02. Only 114 were Hispanic. The numbers are consistent for preceding years: in 2001, just 24 black applicants had 3.5-plus UGPA and 165-plus LSAT, out of 3,724 total applicants in that range; in 2000, it was 26 out of 3,542; in 1999, 22 out of 3,475; in 1998, 24 out of 3,461. LSAC, National Statistical Report, 1996-97 through 2000-01 (lodged with the Clerk)3. For the fall 1997 entering class, the year petitioner applied to Michigan Law School, there were 3,447 applicants nationwide in that range, a total of 17 of whom were black. Id. Some 2,999 applicants across the nation equaled or exceeded petitioner's 3.8 UGPA and 161 LSAT score, of whom 25 were black. Id.

The impact on law school admissions is obvious and inevitable. Of the thousands and thousands of applicants near the top of the LSAT and UGPA ranges-the pool from which the nation's more selective law schools primarily draw-there are only about 25 each year who are black. If admissions were based solely on the UGPA/LSAT index, then that number, dispersed evenly among the ten most selective schools, would leave fewer than three black students in each class-at institutions with class sizes ranging from 150 to 650. In reality, of course, the schools regarded as the most selective would likely attract most of those students, so that it would be mathematically impossible for many other selective law schools to enroll even one black student with numeric scores in the highest ranges."


It would be mathematically impossible for many other selective law schools to enroll even one black student with numeric scores in the highest ranges.  That's not racism, that's just the numbers.  

I'm not sure what the "fact" that white women are the largest beneficiaries of AA has to do with anything.  Even if true, AA would still be wrong.  Those who oppose AA only because it "hurts white people" are opposing it on shaky grounds.  I oppose it because discriminating against someone because of their skin pigmentation is wrong.  

AA does not address the key problem that black students statistically underperform almost every other group on the LSAT.  It insultingly says, "That's a pretty good score for an African American."


Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: ElizaB on November 11, 2004, 09:06:15 AM
I apologize for making the assumption that everyone on this board was well-educated enough on the matter to be aware that men/women are pretty much equal.  There have been numerous studies on this matter and generally, men (as entire population of applicants to graduate/professional program applicants) have slightly higher standardized test scores but women (as an entire population of graduate/professional program applicants) have slightly higher GPA's.  

I will give you an example:
The average UGPA of the white females (for the entire US) is: 3.66
The average UGPA of the white males (for the entire US) is: 3.62

Average UGPA of black females in Med School: 3.37
Average UGPA of black males in Med School:  3.30

Average UGPA of Hispanic female in Med School: 3.57
Average UGPA of Hispanic male in Med School: 3.49

Average total MCAT of white female: 29.5
Average total MCAT of white male: 30.5

(and the rest of the races have a similar discrepency betweent them)

This data is from the Association of American Medical Colleges.

The data is similar for other programs and I could find it for you if I had the time or inclination.  My boyfriend just happened to have the AAMC thing saved on the desktop of our computer.

Next time I will be sure an explain my argument out to the nth degree so I won't be accused of using faulty reasoning.


Besides...I don't understand why everyone is attacking me....I'm not even trying to justify AA...I was just making the argument that women applying to graduate school/professional schools in 2004 do not benefit from AA.  Maybe women did ten or twenty years ago (I don't know) but they don't today.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: A_guy on November 11, 2004, 09:17:16 AM
people always site strict numbers when talking about AA. and always make the assumption that underqualified minorities are being selected over qualified minorities and in many cases thats false.  when talking about numbers u have to look at the entire picture.  saying only 29 were blk with a certain GPA and score means relatively little if u don't look at the total number of blks taking the LSAT in the first place.

true, law schools look at numbers, but they also look at other variables such as trends in grades, hardships, rigor of study, etc.  we ALL know this and if we didn't think it mattered we wouldn't ALL be trying to spin ourselves trying to show how unique we are or writing addendums to explain our numbers and hardships.

people say base everything on numbers, but thats not fair considering the gaps in education.  urban schools serving minority populations can not compete with suburban schools and schools in more affluent neighborhoods.  its not b/c the students in the poor neighbor hoods aren't intellectually capable, its b/c they don't have access to the same resources and thats a fact.  people in these schools start with a disadvantage and spend most of their education playing catch up.  so if a student from this situation can go to college, many are still trying to master things that most have already learned so of course it will be harder for this person to produce a 4.0.

i am not trying to justify lower gpas and scores, but i am trying to provide an alternative way of looking at it.

someone here said something about it being insulting to say "thats pretty good for an African-American"  i don't always think that and realize that scoring a 155 with a 3.0 is good for anyone that doesn't have access to certain resouces and lived in a certain enviroment.  it just so happens that peopel in these situations are minorities.

before u get into the "white people have those experiences too" argument, I don't deny that fact, but poor white people are still white and have access to the privilege that comes from being white in America.

ok, this is kinda long and probably doesn't make sense, but oh well.  i will find out soon enough.:)
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: superiorlobe on November 11, 2004, 09:27:45 AM
Standardized Tests: The Interpretation of Racial and Ethnic Gaps (http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/testing.htm)
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: compact5 on November 11, 2004, 09:54:20 AM
The comments on this thread about AA have been interesting but I think we should all withold any conclusive remarks about racial preferences because the topic is entirely too complex. I think, it should be granted that minorities receieve preference (deserved or not)in the admissions process. Is it true that by "strict numbers" some applicants are going to have better numbers than a minority but still denied admission, yes. But unfortunately, we are all citizens of a country that has tremendous but tragic history. Only until forty years ago did blacks get the right to vote and have schools desegregated "with all delibrate speed." We as citizens have to accept the consequences of this gross inequality. Remember, AA would not be necessary, if our ethnocentric English fathers had not decided to enslave a group of people because they were to lazy to pick their own cotton and tobacco. Blacks had it pretty tough in this country for 200 yrs, in my opinion AA is the least we can do. Just be thankful that all of us will eventually be lawyers some day and that is an immense accomplishment. 
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: A_guy on November 11, 2004, 09:58:11 AM
The comments on this thread about AA have been interesting but I think we should all withold any conclusive remarks about racial preferences because the topic is entirely too complex. I think, it should be granted that minorities receieve preference (deserved or not)in the admissions process. Is it true that by "strict numbers" some applicants are going to have better numbers than a minority but still denied admission, yes. But unfortunately, we are all citizens of a country that has tremendous but tragic history. Only until forty years ago did blacks get the right to vote and have schools desegregated "with all delibrate speed." We as citizens have to accept the consequences of this gross inequality. Remember, AA would not be necessary, if our ethnocentric English fathers had not decided to enslave a group of people because they were to lazy to pick their own cotton and tobacco. Blacks had it pretty tough in this country for 200 yrs, in my opinion AA is the least we can do. Just be thankful that all of us will eventually be lawyers some day and that is an immense accomplishment. 

interesting post, but i am afraid u just opened the door for the "that happend (insert number here) ago argument.  or they "that was in the past" argument.  or even the, "i never owned slaves, why shoul di have to pay/suffer/feel the effects" argument.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: compact5 on November 11, 2004, 10:05:18 AM
Point taken, but the mere fact that an event happened so many yrs ago or that an individual was a direct participant in an event, doesn't mean that the individual did not receive benefits from that event or that the event did not have lasting consequences. Obviously, I didn't own slaves and neither parents. But grandparents and great-grandparents obviously got benefits and preferences that free blacks didn't receieve just b/c their race. Perhaps, this preference helped my grandparents accumulate capital and then invest in a home. Then they were able to send my father to a school and become educated, and so on and so on. Until I'm born with my parents able to send me to a good school with good teachers, and viola its easy to get a 1470 SAT and 167 LSAT.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: compact5 on November 11, 2004, 10:19:33 AM
Just one quick point.
STANDARDIZED TESTs =/ INTELLIGENCE
All SAT, GRE, GMATS, LSATs, test are a ver narrow range of skills that don't have much to do with overrall intelligence. I would agrue, if they did you should see pretty consistent results from individuals who score well from one test to another. Ex. If you receieve a SAT of 1500, it means you have a knack for doing arimethic problems and can solve some analogies. Unfortunately, some people conclude from this that they have some "special mental ability." Now I know of a lot of people who did well on their SAT's (1600, 1480 respectively, just for example) but did only mediocre on their LSATS (159, 153 respectively) Do I think these individuals aren't smart or capable of succeeding in law school? No. In fact my friend who got a 1600 on this SAT i'm still convinced is brighter than I am. Just my opinion, but I have only met 1 person in my entire life, who I could describe as a true genius (He was big time math/physics major, MIT or Harvard grad student) All the rest of us are reasonably intelligent and can achieve the same marks on exams and tests. Hard work and determination will separate the bright from the brightest (1% inspiration and 99% perspiration) but standardized tests scores are merely hyped up b/c society can think of no more of an efficient way to separate people, who are all reasonably intelligent.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: superiorlobe on November 11, 2004, 10:27:00 AM
Just one quick point.
STANDARDIZED TESTs =/ INTELLIGENCE
All SAT, GRE, GMATS, LSATs, test are a ver narrow range of skills that don't have much to do with overrall intelligence. I would agrue, if they did you should see pretty consistent results from individuals who score well from one test to another. Ex. If you receieve a SAT of 1500, it means you have a knack for doing arimethic problems and can solve some analogies. Unfortunately, some people conclude from this that they have some "special mental ability." Now I know of a lot of people who did well on their SAT's (1600, 1480 respectively, just for example) but did only mediocre on their LSATS (159, 153 respectively) Do I think these individuals aren't smart or capable of succeeding in law school? No. In fact my friend who got a 1600 on this SAT i'm still convinced is brighter than I am. Just my opinion, but I have only met 1 person in my entire life, who I could describe as a true genius (He was big time math/physics major, MIT or Harvard grad student) All the rest of us are reasonably intelligent and can achieve the same marks on exams and tests. Hard work and determination will separate the bright from the brightest (1% inspiration and 99% perspiration) but standardized tests scores are merely hyped up b/c society can think of no more of an efficient way to separate people, who are all reasonably intelligent.

I disagree completely.  I think that standardized tests are strongly correlated with intelligence.  Moreover, I think the LSAT is probably a better measure of intelligence than any other standardized test because it relies less than any other standardized test does on material that can be learned in class.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: AMB22 on November 11, 2004, 10:33:52 AM
Quote from: ExistentialLobe
I disagree completely.  I think that standardized tests are strongly correlated with intelligence.
[quote

I agree. I remember reading somewhere that Law schools track the performance of their students and the their is a strong correlation between first year grades and the LSAT. That is one of the reason, as well as the rankings game, why many schools go after high LSATs.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: compact5 on November 11, 2004, 10:35:11 AM
If so, then why do individuals have divergent scores on different tests? Standardized tests each test a different set of skills. If people are so concerned about intelligence then take a legitimate IQ test (perhaps one given by MENSA), and I think most will find they are simply average. No need to let your ego rest on the fact that you can get an analogy question correct, or do some logic game. If you can score in the 99th percentile on a MENSA or some other legitimate IQ test, only then will I grant that that person possesses some special mental acuity.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: superiorlobe on November 11, 2004, 10:39:14 AM
If so, then why do individuals have divergent scores on different tests? Standardized tests each test a different set of skills. If people are so concerned about intelligence then take a legitimate IQ test (perhaps one given by MENSA), and I think most will find they are simply average. No need to let your ego rest on the fact that you can get an analogy question correct, or do some logic game. If you can score in the 99th percentile on a MENSA or some other legitimate IQ test, only then will I grant that that person possesses some special mental acuity.

Mensa accepts the LSAT for admission to their club.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Leviathan on November 11, 2004, 10:41:03 AM
compact makes a good point that is at the heart of the affirmative action debate...namely, although today's whites may not have participated in jim crow or overt discrimination, they benefit today from the effects of that system.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: compact5 on November 11, 2004, 10:44:10 AM
I agree that studies have shown if you do well on the LSAT your are more likely to succeed in your first year of law school. But would expect anything else? I would hope it at least does, but I have a better solution. If people are so confident that LSAT predicts success, then people should take the LSAT blind w/o any practice. Certainly your innate intelligence would be sufficient, and you should perform adequately well. This would really separate individuals. I really find it funny how individuals, when they first take a practice LSAT and get a 144, then take a prep course and get a 168, suddenly believe they've achieved something remarkable, and are intelligent. I CHALLENGE Law Schools during the next admissions cycle to re-orient the LSAT so that it is prepartion proof, then I think people would have a change of heart.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: AMB22 on November 11, 2004, 10:46:32 AM
what I am saying is that law schools are finding the LSAT to be an excellent approximation of how well one can succeed in law school.   Whether you equate success in law school to intelligence is a different matter, but if someone score much higher than me on the LSAT AND does much better than me in law school I'll view them as more intelligent than me, at least in their ability to understand the law.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: superiorlobe on November 11, 2004, 10:47:48 AM
I really find it funny how individuals, when they first take a practice LSAT and get a 144, then take a prep course and get a 168, suddenly believe they've achieved something remarkable, and are intelligent.

Jumping from 144 to 168 basically never happens unless you misbubbled or something.  Also, it is perfectly reasonable to familiarize yourself with the test -- it is a fairer measure if everyone is familiar with it than if some are and some aren't.

I started at 166 and hit 172 after about 5 practice tests, and I ended up scoring a 172 on the real thing. I definitely think people with scores in the 177-180 range are smarter than I am, and I have no problem with that.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: AMB22 on November 11, 2004, 10:49:13 AM
How would you make it preparation proof? You need standardized tests because GPA alone won't allow you to evaluate the qualifications of candidates very well. As long as tests are important in admissions there will always be the incentive to study for them and there will always be the potential for prep courses, prepbook published, etc to profit by aiding others in studying.


I agree that studies have shown if you do well on the LSAT your are more likely to succeed in your first year of law school. But would expect anything else? I would hope it at least does, but I have a better solution. If people are so confident that LSAT predicts success, then people should take the LSAT blind w/o any practice. Certainly your innate intelligence would be sufficient, and you should perform adequately well. This would really separate individuals. I really find it funny how individuals, when they first take a practice LSAT and get a 144, then take a prep course and get a 168, suddenly believe they've achieved something remarkable, and are intelligent. I CHALLENGE Law Schools during the next admissions cycle to re-orient the LSAT so that it is prepartion proof, then I think people would have a change of heart.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: compact5 on November 11, 2004, 10:49:25 AM
I believe the score to get in to MENSA for the LSAT is some ridiculous 163. Now, Mensa can have their policies but I just disagree. Scoring a 163 and then claiming membership to MENSA in my opinion is illegitimate. Consider the following conversation between mensa members:
1: Hey buddy, good to see your in MENSA. how did you qualify.
2: I got a 166 on my LSAT
1. Oh. I scored a legitimate 200 the MENSA IQ and have a photograhic memory
2. Well, I can do logic games and read.
1. That's nice.

 
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: A_guy on November 11, 2004, 10:50:30 AM
its not that hard to get into mensa.  
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: compact5 on November 11, 2004, 10:54:28 AM
By making the LSAT preparation proof, I just mean, make the test impossible to study for. Don't release previous test administrations. Everyone just sits down at the testing site, with a pencil in hand. I think then, only will individuals really use their innate intelligence. Additionally, if the test is a valid predictor of law school success, u should still see the same people who do well on the LSAT, do well in law school. Do people not think this is fair?
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Spallenzani on November 11, 2004, 10:54:47 AM
The comments on this thread about AA have been interesting but I think we should all withold any conclusive remarks about racial preferences because the topic is entirely too complex.

That is nonsense. I've been studying this issue for years, and followed the recent Supreme Court cases very closely, while they were still in appeals court. Speak for yourself if you find the topic too complex.

Quote
We as citizens have to accept the consequences of this gross inequality. Remember, AA would not be necessary, if our ethnocentric English fathers had not decided to enslave a group of people because they were to lazy to pick their own cotton and tobacco 

Again, this is absurd. People cannot be held morally responsible for the actions of their ancestors. And since the descendents of slave owners are a tiny minority, even if we could hold people morally responsible for the actions of their ancestors, why should everyone else -- especially people whose families came to this country recently -- be held responsible for something that neither they nor their ancestors had anything at all to do with?

And again, no one has addressed a fundamental question:  why should the African American son of a successful neurosurgeon get preference over the white son of poor coal miner? Why use race as a proxy if our desired metric for admissions is adversity?

For those unfamiliar with the law, you should know that, according to the Supreme Court in Bakke and reaffirmed in the more recent Michigan cases Grutter and Gratz, Affirmative Action in the university admissions process can only be justified on the grounds of expanding viewpoint diversity, and not on the grounds of ameliorating the effects of past discrimination, nor on the grounds of making underrepresented groups better represented in proportion to the makeup of the general population.

Interestingly, viewpoint diversity has a number of illogical holes of its own. Just as skin color is no good proxy for adversity, skin color is an even worse proxy for viewpoints. And if viewpoint diversity is the goal, why give preferences to only racial minorities? Surely religious and political minorities have more consistent viewpoints as a group than racial minorities. Their very essence is their viewpoint; that is how the group is defined.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: AMB22 on November 11, 2004, 10:55:24 AM
Possibly the only way you could level the playing field was if there was an excellent prepcourse (maybe LSAc run?) that was completely free to everyone and all of the best materials and prep tests were free. But I don't know who would pay for that kind of program or if it would be able to stay ahead of rival prep programs and materials.

I also agree that although many people go up familiarizing themselves with the test, everyone can't study and prepare themselves to a 180. I think most people plateau rather quickly because of their natural ability.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: AMB22 on November 11, 2004, 10:59:24 AM
By making the LSAT preparation proof, I just mean, make the test impossible to study for. Don't release previous test administrations. Everyone just sits down at the testing site, with a pencil in hand. I think then, only will individuals really use their innate intelligence.

That would be even worse.  Companies like Kaplan would hire people to go in take the tests and remember a few questions each. It wouldn't be that hard for such companies to quickly get a real good idea of the type of questions that are on the test. They would still be able to make prep programs and charge money for them. People then who couldn't afford such programs wouldn't even be able to get prep tests from LSAC and would be at even a greater disadvantage then those who could afford the programs.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Spallenzani on November 11, 2004, 11:10:59 AM
I believe the score to get in to MENSA for the LSAT is some ridiculous 163. Now, Mensa can have their policies but I just disagree. Scoring a 163 and then claiming membership to MENSA in my opinion is illegitimate. Consider the following conversation between mensa members:
1: Hey buddy, good to see your in MENSA. how did you qualify.
2: I got a 166 on my LSAT
1. Oh. I scored a legitimate 200 the MENSA IQ and have a photograhic memory
2. Well, I can do logic games and read.
1. That's nice.

Mensa has more liberal acceptance policies than other "intelligence clubs." If I recall correctly, their cut-off point is top 2%. While a 163 is only 90% percentile, one must remember that this is 90% percentile of all people who take the LSAT, and not 90% of the population as a whole. If the average person who takes the LSAT is smarter than the average person in general, it should not be surprising that a person in the 90% percentile of LSAT takers is also in the 98% percentile of general population intelligence.

If you want a more selective club, those exist as well (http://www.faqs.org/faqs/mensa/high-iq/).
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Spallenzani on November 11, 2004, 11:16:03 AM
By making the LSAT preparation proof, I just mean, make the test impossible to study for. Don't release previous test administrations. Everyone just sits down at the testing site, with a pencil in hand. I think then, only will individuals really use their innate intelligence. Additionally, if the test is a valid predictor of law school success, u should still see the same people who do well on the LSAT, do well in law school. Do people not think this is fair?

It would be fair if law school was nothing more than a high intelligence society. Sadly, it isn't. Law school is also a school. And in school people take tests. And to do well on tests, people study. Hence, studying is an integral part of success in law school. So it makes sense that entry to law school might partly test an applicant's ability to study.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: A_guy on November 11, 2004, 11:29:30 AM
The comments on this thread about AA have been interesting but I think we should all withold any conclusive remarks about racial preferences because the topic is entirely too complex.

That is nonsense. I've been studying this issue for years, and followed the recent Supreme Court cases very closely, while they were still in appeals court. Speak for yourself if you find the topic too complex.

Quote
We as citizens have to accept the consequences of this gross inequality. Remember, AA would not be necessary, if our ethnocentric English fathers had not decided to enslave a group of people because they were to lazy to pick their own cotton and tobacco 

Again, this is absurd. People cannot be held morally responsible for the actions of their ancestors. And since the descendents of slave owners are a tiny minority, even if we could hold people morally responsible for the actions of their ancestors, why should everyone else -- especially people whose families came to this country recently -- be held responsible for something that neither they nor their ancestors had anything at all to do with?

And again, no one has addressed a fundamental question:  why should the African American son of a successful neurosurgeon get preference over the white son of poor coal miner? Why use race as a proxy if our desired metric for admissions is adversity?

For those unfamiliar with the law, you should know that, according to the Supreme Court in Bakke and reaffirmed in the more recent Michigan cases Grutter and Gratz, Affirmative Action in the university admissions process can only be justified on the grounds of expanding viewpoint diversity, and not on the grounds of ameliorating the effects of past discrimination, nor on the grounds of making underrepresented groups better represented in proportion to the makeup of the general population.

Interestingly, viewpoint diversity has a number of illogical holes of its own. Just as skin color is no good proxy for adversity, skin color is an even worse proxy for viewpoints. And if viewpoint diversity is the goal, why give preferences to only racial minorities? Surely religious and political minorities have more consistent viewpoints as a group than racial minorities. Their very essence is their viewpoint; that is how the group is defined.

i too have studied AA and u have to acknowledge that fact that AA was a result of the civil rights movement.  u say not to base thing on race, but the entire system is based on that.  from slavery, to jim crow, to racial profiling.  teh difference is those things did not have benefits for the groups being judged by thier race.

Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: superiorlobe on November 11, 2004, 11:34:39 AM
The basic problem is that blacks from the wealthiest families have mean SAT scores that are below the mean SAT scores from whites who are below the poverty line.

This is why AA has to be based on skin color and cannot be based on things like socioeconomic position.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Spallenzani on November 11, 2004, 11:50:49 AM
i too have studied AA and u have to acknowledge that fact that AA was a result of the civil rights movement.  u say not to base thing on race, but the entire system is based on that.  from slavery, to jim crow, to racial profiling.  teh difference is those things did not have benefits for the groups being judged by thier race.

If you studied the legal history of Affirmative Action, you should know that this rationale has already been rejected by the courts. Justice Powell, writing for the majority opinion of the Supreme Court in Bakke held,

"[The Court]has never approved a classification that aids persons perceived as members of relatively victimized groups at the expense of other innocent individuals in the absence of judicial, legislative, or administrative findings of constitutional or statutory violations." (438 U.S. 265, at 308.)

Further,

"[The Medical School of the University of California at Davis] does not purport to have made, and is in no position to make, such findings. Its broad mission is education, not the formulation of any legislative policy or the adjudication of particular claims of illegality. . . . Isolated segments of our vast governmental structures are not competent to make those decisions, at least in the absence of legislative mandates and legislatively determined criteria."
(438 U.S. 265, at 310. Here Powell suggests that the threshold for justified preferences under the Constitution is exactly the same as the one for their use under Title VII: preferences may be used by an institution to prevent its own present and future discrimination.)

This is the current settled doctrine of the Court, and was reiterated in Grutter.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Spallenzani on November 11, 2004, 11:54:34 AM
The basic problem is that blacks from the wealthiest families have mean SAT scores that are below the mean SAT scores from whites who are below the poverty line.

This is why AA has to be based on skin color and cannot be based on things like socioeconomic position.

Assuming these numbers are correct (and I have no idea if they are or not), how does that follow? Wealthy black parents, who have the option of sending their children to the very best private schools, hiring expensive personal tutors, taking as many LSAT-prep courses as possible - and all of this in comparison to poor white parents, who have no similar options and take what they can get, yet somehow, the child of the wealthy black parents deserves preferences over the child of the poor white parents? How could anyone justify this insanity?
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: AMB22 on November 11, 2004, 11:58:11 AM
Thats my problem with affirmative action, you get the advantages as long as you have met the threshold of being a URM regardless of if you haven't sufferred anything, but demonstrated adversity for whites, although schools certainly take it into account in admissions, doesn't seem to count for nearly as much.


The basic problem is that blacks from the wealthiest families have mean SAT scores that are below the mean SAT scores from whites who are below the poverty line.

This is why AA has to be based on skin color and cannot be based on things like socioeconomic position.

Assuming these numbers are correct (and I have no idea if they are or not), how does that follow? Wealthy black parents, who have the option of sending their children to the very best private schools, hiring expensive personal tutors, taking as many LSAT-prep courses as possible - and all of this in comparison to poor white parents, who have no similar options and take what they can get, yet somehow, the child of the wealthy black parents deserves preferences over the child of the poor white parents? How could anyone justify this insanity?
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: superiorlobe on November 11, 2004, 12:06:01 PM
The problem is that if you just treat everyone equally, then the blacks will never get into the top schools because they will have lower test scores across the board.

It will be sort of the opposite of athletics.  Even though blacks are only 12% of the population or something, everyone is treated equally in athletics, so blacks end up being something like 85% of the professional athletes.

Now consider the fact that the tables are turned in the case of academics.  If whites/asians/jews were only 12% of the population they would get 85% of the top slots at the best universities.  But actually, whites/asians/jews are already 85% of the population to start with, so they will actually end up with something like 99.5% of the top slots at the best universities.

So treating everyone equally cannot work because it would completely shut out the blacks.  This is why I support affirmative action.

Yes, you heard me: I support Affirmative Action.  I think it is important for people from all races to be represented at the top schools, and I think that if everyone was treated equally, this would simply not happen.

I don't think that basing AA on socioeconomics is justified.  AA has to be based on skin color.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: amelus on November 11, 2004, 12:22:52 PM
"But actually, whites/asians/jews are already 85% of the population to start with"

whites around 70%
asians around 4%
jews around 1%

not a big deal that it totals around 75 (and i could be wrong, and it is actually closer to 80% combined).  just wanted to point out the % breakdown.  it doesnt diminish your point, but tangentially your stat gives impression that adding them up gives the large # when really it basically all whites in your population #.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: superiorlobe on November 11, 2004, 12:25:20 PM
It depends a bit who and what you think hispanics are, but you're right: the 85% number was a bit high for whites/asians/jews.

Actually, I'm not even sure how accurate my 85% number is for blacks in professional athletics either -- but I know it is a vast majority.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Spallenzani on November 11, 2004, 12:27:27 PM
The problem is that if you just treat everyone equally, then the blacks will never get into the top schools because they will have lower test scores across the board.

The thing is, the government does not "just treat everyone equally", even apart from Affirmative Action. Education at the primary school level is dreadful for inner-city blacks, because of both lack of school choice and inadequate, unequal funding tied to property values.

Quote
It will be sort of the opposite of athletics.  Even though blacks are only 12% of the population or something, everyone is treated equally in athletics, so black end up being something like 85% of the professional athletes.

Is this an inequality that should be remedied? Is it unfair that, even though everyone is treated equally in athletics, whites only make up a minority? Should sports teams give preferences to whites?

Quote
Now consider the fact that the tables are turned in the case of academics.  If whites/asians/jews were only 12% of the population they would get 85% of the top slots at the best universities.  But actually, whites/asians/jews are already 85% of the population to start with, so they will actually end up with something like 99.5% of the top slots at the best universities.

It is important to note that asians and Jews have suffered from systematic discrimination as well, and yet they have largely overcome the negative effects of discrimination without the advantage of racial preferences. Further, blacks who have recently immigrated from Africa and Caribbean countries tend to perform much better academically than blacks whose families have lived in the U.S. much longer, and according to certain metrics, perform better than even average whites and other groups. So it is not so much current discrimination as it is the lingering cultural effects of past discrimination.

Quote
So treating everyone equally cannot work because it would completely shut out the blacks.  This is why I support affirmative action.

In the 1930's, Harvard made a similar argument. There were simply too many Jews in the university. Non-Jews were being shut out. So Harvard implemented a "Jewish quota" which restricted the number of Jews who could be accepted and gave preference to non-Jews.

Quote
Yes, you heard me: I support Affirmative Action.  I think it is important for people from all races to be represented at the top schools, and I think that if everyone was treated equally, this would simply not happen.

Justice Powell, writing the majority opinion in Bakke, held,

"If [the School's] purpose is to assure within its student body some specified percentage of a particular group merely because of its race or ethnic origin, such a preferential purpose must be rejected not as insubstantial but as facially invalid. Preferring members of any one group for no reason other than race or ethnic origin is discrimination for its own sake." (438 U.S. 265, at 307.)

Quote
I don't think that basing AA on socioeconomics is justified.  AA has to be based on skin color.

"I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

My, how times have changed.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: AMB22 on November 11, 2004, 12:31:49 PM
Lobe: Are you saying blacks would still need to be represented proportionately to their population even if they on average faced the same adversity and had the same benefits as everyone else and still had lower scores? In other words if blacks come from essentially the same backgrounds as other races do we still need a policy to aid them so that they are proportionately represented?

Before I get flamed by Panther and Regal Muse calling me either "ignorant" or a racist, note that I am not saying that it is the case that 1) blacks do no face discrimination or 2) blacks come from the same socioeconomic backgrounds as whites or 3) that if given the same advantages as white that blacks would, on average, score lower on tests.

I am just trying to understand your argument for affirmative action. 


The problem is that if you just treat everyone equally, then the blacks will never get into the top schools because they will have lower test scores across the board.

It will be sort of the opposite of athletics.  Even though blacks are only 12% of the population or something, everyone is treated equally in athletics, so black end up being something like 85% of the professional athletes.

Now consider the fact that the tables are turned in the case of academics.  If whites/asians/jews were only 12% of the population they would get 85% of the top slots at the best universities.  But actually, whites/asians/jews are already 85% of the population to start with, so they will actually end up with something like 99.5% of the top slots at the best universities.

So treating everyone equally cannot work because it would completely shut out the blacks.  This is why I support affirmative action.

Yes, you heard me: I support Affirmative Action.  I think it is important for people from all races to be represented at the top schools, and I think that if everyone was treated equally, this would simply not happen.

I don't think that basing AA on socioeconomics is justified.  AA has to be based on skin color.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: superiorlobe on November 11, 2004, 12:34:27 PM
The thing is, the government does not "just treat everyone equally", even apart from Affirmative Action. Education at the primary school level is dreadful for inner-city blacks, because of both lack of school choice and inadequate, unequal funding tied to property values.

This is why I made the point about blacks from the highest income levels (and with parents with graduate degrees) having lower mean SAT scores that white kids from below the poverty line.  I wanted to point out that even when they have better educational opportunities, they still score lower on standardized tests.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: superiorlobe on November 11, 2004, 12:37:50 PM
With the same income levels, educational opportunities, and everything else, blacks score lower on standardized tests than other races.  (I'm not advocating for this to be the case -- I'm just reporting what the data shows.)

So we need AA to ensure that we have some blacks in the top schools.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Spallenzani on November 11, 2004, 12:40:49 PM
The thing is, the government does not "just treat everyone equally", even apart from Affirmative Action. Education at the primary school level is dreadful for inner-city blacks, because of both lack of school choice and inadequate, unequal funding tied to property values.

This is why I made the point about blacks from the highest income levels (and with parents with graduate degrees) having lower mean SAT scores that white kids from below the poverty line.  I wanted to point out that even when they have better educational opportunities, they still score lower on standardized tests.

I've seen no evidence that this is the case, but even if it is, I hardly see how this is grounds for racial preferences. Low scores on standardized tests is either a random quirk, or a function of another problem. If they are a function of another problem, as most people believe, then that problem should be addressed directly rather than patched over by merely treating the symptoms of the problem. As I've pointed out in other threads, Affirmative Action often hurts the very people it is intended to help, and it certainly isn't going to change test scores.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Spallenzani on November 11, 2004, 12:42:48 PM
So we need AA to ensure that we have some blacks in the top schools.

1. Why?

2. How many is enough to meet the standards of "some"?  i.e., what is the intended racial quota?

3. The Supreme Court has rejected this rationale at least twice.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: AMB22 on November 11, 2004, 12:46:00 PM
With the same income levels, educational opportunities, and everything else, blacks score lower on standardized tests than other races.  (I'm not advocating for this to be the case -- I'm just reporting what the data shows.)

So we need AA to ensure that we have some blacks in the top schools.

If given the same advantages, etc blacks score lower then wouldn't that mean they are generally less qualified? Why would we *need* to ensure some blacks get into top schools if they aren't equally qualified?
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: superiorlobe on November 11, 2004, 12:47:40 PM
1. Why?

I just think it would be good to have some blacks getting the elite degrees.  I'm not saying they should be represented in their full 12% of the population proportions, but I think it makes sense to give at least 1% - 2% of the top seats to blacks just so that we don't end up with a country that is ruled both politically and economically by the people of one race.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: rwhitman on November 11, 2004, 12:51:28 PM
1. Why?

I just think it would be good to have some blacks getting the elite degrees.  I'm not saying they should be represented in their full 12% of the population proportions, but I think it makes sense to give at least 1% - 2% of the top seats to blacks just so that we don't end up with a country that is ruled both politically and economically by the people of one race.

In that case the top schools would have only several blacks in each class and therefore you probably would not need afirmative action.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Spallenzani on November 11, 2004, 12:54:44 PM
1. Why?

I just think it would be good to have some blacks getting the elite degrees.  I'm not saying they should be represented in their full 12% of the population proportions, but I think it makes sense to give at least 1% - 2% of the top seats to blacks just so that we don't end up with a country that is ruled both politically and economically by the people of one race.

Perhaps we should do the same with doctors? Do you want your brain surgery or death penalty defense conducted by a doctor or lawyer who could not get into law school or medical school on his or her own merits, but as a result of a set-aside quota?

And again, as I've repeatedly mentioned, quotas are unconstitutional.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: superiorlobe on November 11, 2004, 12:56:42 PM
If you guys are happy with only 20 blacks getting into the top 10 law schools every year, then.... *shrugs*
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: MBUSA on November 11, 2004, 12:59:15 PM

If given the same advantages, etc blacks score lower then wouldn't that mean they are generally less qualified?

Although that's one interpretation of the data, the following interpretation is more widely held among colleges in America. Because URMs get lower scores than Whites holding things like income and geography constant, it means they are being discriminated against in a way that is not captured by socioeconomic status.
Specifically, being a minority has inherent disadvantages that affect even the most affluent among them. I mentioned specifics before but let me say again that ideas like "stereotype threat," "implicit assocation," and "dynamic social networking" all lead to the conclusion that purely racial discrimination still occurs.

Whether using AA to balance the playing field due to these inequities is morally justified is a very personal question.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: superiorlobe on November 11, 2004, 01:02:42 PM

If given the same advantages, etc blacks score lower then wouldn't that mean they are generally less qualified?

Although that's one interpretation of the data, the following interpretation is more widely held among colleges in America. Because URMs get lower scores than Whites holding things like income and geography constant, it means they are being discriminated against in a way that is not captured by socioeconomic status.
Specifically, being a minority has inherent disadvantages that affect even the most affluent among them. I mentioned specifics before but let me say again that ideas like "stereotype threat," "implicit assocation," and "dynamic social networking" all lead to the conclusion that purely racial discrimination still occurs.

Whether using AA to balance the playing field due to these inequities is morally justified is a very personal question.


but you are assuming that they are capable of getting equivalent scores in the first place.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Spallenzani on November 11, 2004, 01:03:11 PM

If given the same advantages, etc blacks score lower then wouldn't that mean they are generally less qualified?

Although that's one interpretation of the data, the following interpretation is more widely held among colleges in America. Because URMs get lower scores than Whites holding things like income and geography constant, it means they are being discriminated against in a way that is not captured by socioeconomic status.
Specifically, being a minority has inherent disadvantages that affect even the most affluent among them. I mentioned specifics before but let me say again that ideas like "stereotype threat," "implicit assocation," and "dynamic social networking" all lead to the conclusion that purely racial discrimination still occurs.

Whether using AA to balance the playing field due to these inequities is morally justified is a very personal question.

The problem with this theory is, as I mentioned earlier, that blacks who are recent immigrants do not experience this kind of disparity (holding everything else constant). So it doesn't appear that current discrimination based on skin color is a significant factor effecting this data. The social effects of past discrimination, on the other hand, may be a factor.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: MBUSA on November 11, 2004, 01:15:50 PM
First, it is true that I am working under the assumption that people of different races are capable of getting similar scores. With that said, it is still possible to see (to a reasonable extent) if racial inequity in scores is based on inherent differences or societal discrimination.

As long as one can isolate the factors causing societal discrimination, one can see if the problem is external. For example, having identified stereotype threat, one can empirically test if stereotype threat is hurting URMs. I don't know to what extent the disparity is based on external factors, but I can say that some of it can be explained by such factors as stereotype threat without resorting to my personal bias.

Second, regarding recent immigrants, the recent immigrant pool is different from American-born URMs in hard to quantify ways. While you can control for income (and will probably still see recent immigrants outperform American born URM while doing so) it is hard to control for social networking. My gut tells me a disproportionately large percent of recent immigrants have strong social networks through business interactions.

I must admit I have no actual data to back up this final claim.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: A_guy on November 11, 2004, 01:45:43 PM

If given the same advantages, etc blacks score lower then wouldn't that mean they are generally less qualified?

Although that's one interpretation of the data, the following interpretation is more widely held among colleges in America. Because URMs get lower scores than Whites holding things like income and geography constant, it means they are being discriminated against in a way that is not captured by socioeconomic status.
Specifically, being a minority has inherent disadvantages that affect even the most affluent among them. I mentioned specifics before but let me say again that ideas like "stereotype threat," "implicit assocation," and "dynamic social networking" all lead to the conclusion that purely racial discrimination still occurs.

Whether using AA to balance the playing field due to these inequities is morally justified is a very personal question.


but you are assuming that they are capable of getting equivalent scores in the first place.

i'm trying to understand ur perspective here.  r u saying blk students are inheriently less intelligent than white students which will account for lower scores?  or are u saying their are factors contributing to the lower scores?
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: superiorlobe on November 11, 2004, 01:49:07 PM
i'm trying to understand ur perspective here.  r u saying blk students are inheriently less intelligent than white students which will account for lower scores?  or are u saying their are factors contributing to the lower scores?

I don't know if you want to call it intelligence and I don't know if there are other factors, but for whatever reason the data appear to show that all things being equal, asians outscore whites on standardized tests. I have no problem with Asians being more intelligent than whites, though.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: compact5 on November 11, 2004, 01:59:49 PM
If anyone here is implying by their arguments that blacks can't score as well as whites on standardized tests, you have some serious issues. Given an equal playing field, w/o discrimination , blacks would do equally as well. Anyone who argues otherwise, I would have to say has problems. I have many African-American friends who have done well on their SATs, and LSATS, and am sure when they get to law school they will kick ass.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: superiorlobe on November 11, 2004, 02:05:07 PM
If anyone here is implying by their arguments that blacks can't score as well as whites on standardized tests, you have some serious issues. Given an equal playing field, w/o discrimination , blacks would do equally as well. Anyone who argues otherwise, I would have to say has problems. I have many African-American friends who have done well on their SATs, and LSATS, and am sure when they get to law school they will kick ass.

Sounds like you have your mind made up ahead of time.  I call that being prejudiced.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: superiorlobe on November 11, 2004, 02:19:29 PM
I don't think so Lobe. I just like to believe every person (black, white, hispanic, asian) has the potential to succeed, if given the tools and opportunity. From your argument, you appear to think that blacks just can't score as well, and I just find this ridiculous. Blacks do it everyday. But perhaps my environment is different. If you knew the people I know, and had classes and discussions w/ them you couldn't think blacks or any minority wasn't capable. Agreed, most of them are not disadvantaged and come from affluent backgrounds, and yes perhaps AA doesn't help the truly disadvantaged but they don't control the system. Some of them have written to admissions comm. telling them not to consider their race as a factor; their numbers and other activities speak for themselves. One is now at Harvard and another at Georgetown. I just think its ridiculous that u believe blacks can't score as high as other groups. I prefer not to stereotype and make broad generalizations about the capability of a particular race b/c that's how we got into this mess, isn't it?

Hey, there is data on this stuff.  You can analyze test scores, look at huge sample sizes, etc.  You have a lot of anecdotal evidence, but there is also a rigorous, scientific, statistical way to approach these questions.

Check out this book:

IQ and the Wealth of Nations (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/027597510X/102-5401347-2392935?v=glance)

Lynn and Vanhanen argue that a significant part of the gap between rich and poor countries is due to differences in national intelligence (national IQs). Based on an extensive survey of national IQ tests, the results of their study challenge the previous theories of economic development and provide a new basis to evaluate the prospects of economic development throughout the world.

Lynn (psychology, U. of Ulster) and Vanhanen (political science, U. of Tampere and U. of Helsinki, Finland) argue that the intelligence of nations differ, and the difference manifests in wealth or poverty. They challenge theories that assume intelligence to average out about the same everywhere, and assertions that, for example, African nations are poor because Africans are mentally deficient to be morally offensive.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: compact5 on November 11, 2004, 02:30:22 PM
Agreed. I don't contend that the statistics and data you present is incorrect, I'm interested in asking why? Why is it that blacks, which come from advantaged background are still not achieving higher scores? I wouldn't argue it has to do with their innate intelligence (though some might consider this a possibility) but perhaps is caused by social pressures. Sociologists have been developing theories that even blacks that grow up in economically advantaged families feel a pressure from other blacks to still act ghetto and underachieve. Tell you truth, I just dont know. That's why I try not to draw any decisive conclusions on the AA issue b/c i think it is complex. Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Regal_Muse on November 11, 2004, 02:32:53 PM
Everyone should take any sort of “statistical data" with a grain of salt. The lsats do not determine how well a student will perform in law school. Therefore, if a student is admitted into law school with lower stats, it doesn't mean they don't deserve to be there. At the firm I intern in Downtown Los Angeles, I've spoken to several partners about law school admissions and the lsats. When they took the lsats, the vase majority of them scored between the 140-150 ranges. Mind you, the majority of these partners (who happen to be white male) attended law schools that are in the Top 20.

What right does any  of us have to say one person deserves to be in law school over the other whether they are black, white, Asian, or Latino? I can't stress enough that there is more to an applicant than just numbers. White people as a group never have and never will be at a disadvantage when it comes to admissions or anything else in our society.  Now there are individual situations that can be considered. No one ever makes the argument for the white students who also get into schools with lower stats as well. But god forbid if a black or Latino does. Suddenly everything is unfair and the world is a cruel place.

At most Tier 1 schools, whites still make up the majority of the entire student body. Personally, I believe that the root of these concerns is due to a superiority complex, not a true desire for diversity and equality within law schools. Deep down, certain people (I won't name names, but they all know who they are) do not want to see people of color succeed. They fear too many people of color moving up and possibly posing a threat to certain privileges whites have always been given.  
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: superiorlobe on November 11, 2004, 02:40:35 PM
As I have already mentioned at least twice in this thread, I strongly support racially-based affirmative action.   ;D
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: compact5 on November 11, 2004, 02:42:23 PM
http://esr.oupjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/19/4/411

Here's the absract to the critique of the IQ and Wealth of Nations article. It's books and quack science like this that gets the human species in trouble.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Tom on November 11, 2004, 02:52:12 PM
Whether you agree with it or not AA is going to be around for awhile.
As a white male I realize that my numbers have to be far better than females or people of color if I am to be admitted to the law schools of my choice. Whether they are or not, i'll know in a few months. This is the reality of things.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: rwhitman on November 11, 2004, 02:59:06 PM
Regal,
Using lsat scores of people who went to law school ten or twenty + years ago does not count as evidence that many white males get into top 20 law schools these days with a 140-150 lsat score. Half as many people as now applied to law school in those days, and I don't believe there really were minorities or even many women who applied back then.

The lsat has been shown to correlate strongly with success in law school, and if you have been reading other threads on this topic you would know that 50% of african americans are in the bottom 10% of their class. So it would seem that admitting applicants with lower than average scores does create disparities in school performance.

Also, you mentioned that 'certain people' just don't want to see people of different color succeed. I think the reason is more based on a sense of equality and these 'certain people' are rightly angry when a minority with lower scores and worse credentials is given a job or place in a school over them.

Affirmative action has helped my family, when my mother applied to the police force.  She didn't have better credentials than many of the men but there was a push for more females in the workplace in those days. Now there are more females working so I don't think that is necessary anymore. Hopefully the same thing will happen for african americans soon so affirmative action will be a non-issue.

My family immigrated from germany/ireland so I admit it does piss me off that some nationalities are given bonuses that others aren't. Doesn't seem fair at all.


Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: shiveringjenny on November 11, 2004, 03:00:28 PM
i don't know... from what i've seen at lsn/lsd law school websites, there isn't some crazy epidemic of white guys with 4.0's and 175+'s having their seats stolen by URM's with 3.0's and 155's. It just isn't happening.

Tom, if your numbers don't get you in to a specific LS (besides yale), it has nothing to do with the fact that you're a white guy and everything to do with some drunken adcomm pulling names out of a hat.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: superiorlobe on November 11, 2004, 03:05:02 PM
http://esr.oupjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/19/4/411

Here's the absract to the critique of the IQ and Wealth of Nations article. It's books and quack science like this that gets the human species in trouble.

Every single book on the subject of IQ has people rabidly opposed to it.  *shrugs*

You will also find plenty of stuff supposedly debunking "The Bell Curve" as well.  The PC pressure is so high, that people who think and write about this stuff often have to hide behind anonymity, as the author of http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/ does.

You can also find lots of papers and books and websites that supposedly debunk Evolutionary Theory.  And then there is the stuff that debunks the stuff that debunks Evolutionary Theory.  And then people debunk that.

Basically, if you don't want to think about the matter too hard, then you can just make up your mind and then find some website that supports you.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: superiorlobe on November 11, 2004, 03:06:09 PM
The LSAT wasn't even scored on the 120-180 scale as recenlty as 15 years ago.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: MBUSA on November 11, 2004, 03:08:11 PM
Hey, there is data on this stuff.  You can analyze test scores, look at huge sample sizes, etc.  You have a lot of anecdotal evidence, but there is also a rigorous, scientific, statistical way to approach these questions.

Check out this book:

IQ and the Wealth of Nations (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/027597510X/102-5401347-2392935?v=glance)

I hope you are not using IQ and the Wealth of Nations as evidence for genetic disparity between URMs and Whites.
First, I just have to agree with Regal Muse in that the results must be taken with a grain a of salt.
Second, even if we believed the work to be sound, saying it supports the claim that Blacks are less intelligent than Whites is a terrible mischaracterization of the analysis.

IQ and the Wealth of Nations argues that national IQ differs between nations and that African nations have lower average IQs. It does not in any way argue that IQ is only correlated with intelligence. (A necessary constraint to make the claim that the book supports the view that URMs are less intelligent.)
In fact, scores on IQ tests have been widely recognized to be correlated with literacy and income, things that are not genetically predetermined. Along with endogeneity problems (made clear through the Flynn Effect), the omitted variable bias in the study is off the charts. That is, it's off the charts if you actually believe IQ is being used as an unbias proxy for intelligence.
The reasonable conclusion from Lynn and Vanhanen's work is that many countries (particularly those in Africa) have particular problems that correlate with low IQ. This is why Lynn and Vanhanen championed literacy and nutrition programs after releasing their book.

Using Lynn and Vanhanen's work to support a claim of genetic disparity is like using Dembski's No Free Lunch to support creationism. It has the right feel, but the analysis completely misses the mark.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Regal_Muse on November 11, 2004, 03:20:06 PM
Why is that particular study reminding me of the Eugenics movement? Hmmmmmmmm sounds a tad but too close for comfort.

IQ test have been proven to be cultural biased, so of course there will be certain groups of people showing to have an IQ higher than others.

Regal,
Using lsat scores of people who went to law school ten or twenty + years ago does not count as evidence that many white males get into top 20 law schools these days with a 140-150 lsat score. Half as many people as now applied to law school in those days, and I don't believe there really were minorities or even many women who applied back then.

The lsat has been shown to correlate strongly with success in law school, and if you have been reading other threads on this topic you would know that 50% of african americans are in the bottom 10% of their class. So it would seem that admitting applicants with lower than average scores does create disparities in school performance.

Also, you mentioned that 'certain people' just don't want to see people of different color succeed. I think the reason is more based on a sense of equality and these 'certain people' are rightly angry when a minority with lower scores and worse credentials is given a job or place in a school over them.

Affirmative action has helped my family, when my mother applied to the police force. She didn't have better credentials than many of the men but there was a push for more females in the workplace in those days. Now there are more females working so I don't think that is necessary anymore. Hopefully the same thing will happen for african americans soon so affirmative action will be a non-issue.

My family immigrated from germany/ireland so I admit it does piss me off that some nationalities are given bonuses that others aren't. Doesn't seem fair at all.




The people I spoke to at the law firm took the test when it was on the 120-180 scale.

Most of these statistics are bull to be quite honest. Where is the sample group coming from? If the statistics are being taken from black students at Tier 4 schools, then that would explain why half of them are at the bottom 10%...COME ON NOW...

The real issue is minority students getting in at TOP SCHOOLS with lower stats. No one gives a damn if someone is admitted to a Tier 3 or 4. Talk to the minorities students at Tier 1 schools. The MAJORITY of them are doing exceedingly well.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: superiorlobe on November 11, 2004, 03:24:36 PM
Why is that particular study reminding me of the Eugenics movement? Hmmmmmmmm sounds a tad but too close for comfort.

IQ test have been proven to be cultural biased, so of course there will be certain groups of people showing to have an IQ higher than others.

Regal,
Using lsat scores of people who went to law school ten or twenty + years ago does not count as evidence that many white males get into top 20 law schools these days with a 140-150 lsat score. Half as many people as now applied to law school in those days, and I don't believe there really were minorities or even many women who applied back then.

The lsat has been shown to correlate strongly with success in law school, and if you have been reading other threads on this topic you would know that 50% of african americans are in the bottom 10% of their class. So it would seem that admitting applicants with lower than average scores does create disparities in school performance.

Also, you mentioned that 'certain people' just don't want to see people of different color succeed. I think the reason is more based on a sense of equality and these 'certain people' are rightly angry when a minority with lower scores and worse credentials is given a job or place in a school over them.

Affirmative action has helped my family, when my mother applied to the police force. She didn't have better credentials than many of the men but there was a push for more females in the workplace in those days. Now there are more females working so I don't think that is necessary anymore. Hopefully the same thing will happen for african americans soon so affirmative action will be a non-issue.

My family immigrated from germany/ireland so I admit it does piss me off that some nationalities are given bonuses that others aren't. Doesn't seem fair at all.




The people I spoke to at the law firm took the test when it was on the 120-180 scale.

Most of these statistics are bull to be quite honest. Where is the sample group coming from? If the statistics are being taken from black students at Tier 4 schools, then that would explain why half of them are at the bottom 10%...COME ON NOW...

The real issue is minority students getting in at TOP SCHOOLS with lower stats. No one gives a damn if someone is admitted to a Tier 3 or 4. Talk to the minorities students at Tier 1 schools. The MAJORITY of them are doing exceedingly well.



There was just a major study reported on in the Chronicle.  There is also a long post on xoxohth about this.  50% of blacks are in the bottom 10% of their class at law school, and they also have a very high dropout rate and a very high rate of failing the bar exam even on multiple attempts.  Look up the article.

And I suppose everyone else on here will debunk it as quack science.  What are you going to do? People have their prejudices and don't like to look at the data sometimes.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: superiorlobe on November 11, 2004, 03:28:09 PM
This is from the Wall Street Journal

http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB109960753547665313,00.html?

hit "Skip Intro" if it takes you to an ad.  Then read the article.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: rwhitman on November 11, 2004, 03:28:23 PM
Quote
Most of these statistics are bull to be quite honest. Where is the sample group coming from? If the statistics are being taken from black students at Tier 4 schools, then that would explain why half of them are at the bottom 10%...COME ON NOW...

The real issue is minority students getting in at TOP SCHOOLS with lower stats. No one gives a damn if someone is admitted to a Tier 3 or 4. Talk to the minorities students at Tier 1 schools. The MAJORITY of them are doing exceedingly well.

It's interesting how you assume that it only covers schools outside the top 20. Even then the majority of schools would still be included so I don't see how that supports your arguement about the MAJORITY.

'The study found a stark achievement gap between blacks and whites throughout the nation's law schools. Close to half of the black law students ended up in the bottom tenth of their class. African-Americans were more than twice as likely as whites to drop out -- and more than six times as likely to fail state bar exams after multiple tries.'

Read the article yourself:
http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB109960753547665313,00.html?
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: compact5 on November 11, 2004, 03:48:27 PM
Interesting study but of course it has its critics and is far from conclusive. Though the system needs critiquing lets not throw the baby out with the bath water.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: mivida2k on November 11, 2004, 04:02:39 PM
All of you posting pictures of yourselves, I am submitting these to every Bar Association in this country to make sure you do not get admitted. America does not need any more ignorant, prejudice, or intolerant people in this country.

Stu-Lo, ExistentialLobe, Tom if believing that African-Americans are inheritently less intelligent than yourselves and are taking "your" seats then go ahead and believe that.  Obviously,  you have low self-esteem and doubt in your own intellectual prowess.

I will make sure that I invite you to my graduation as I will be at the top of my class.

Oh and on a side note, I am used to dealing with your type.  It was amazing to me when I got accepted to my UG that the same people that I had shared Honors and AP classes with were angry at me because they did not get in, but somehow I took their seat.  We had the same grades, SAT scores, except I did not brag and I actually was extensively involved in school and community organizations, which they were not.

Hey Trojan Girl (Regal), I told you that us Bruins just don't stop.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: DukeLaw on November 11, 2004, 04:17:23 PM
Why are we even arguing over this?  This topic has been discussed on this board 4 times too many.  We will never agree on the topic of Affirmative Action.  AA goes deeper than "some URM" taking a white male's seat in law school.  I won't go all that deep into it here but folks who do believe in AA, please don't feel the need to prove yourself to anyone.  WE have aLL worked our a$$es off to get where we are.  Once we get there there is nothing anyone can take away.

I have heard it all...

URMs in Tier 1 schools hearing remarks that they only go there because of AA

URMs don't deserve to be there and are only there because an ADComm felt sorry for them...

URMs are taking seats away from the majority...

BLah blah blah...get over it and study harder.  Learn more about diversity and make it a part of your life.  Long gone are the days where we were segregated and were subjected less than what we deserved.  The URMs at top schools have alled earned their position and if AA makes you so mad then write about it in your PS and call it a day because until the playing field is made equal for all then this will continue to be an issue.

Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Spallenzani on November 11, 2004, 04:19:27 PM
First, it is true that I am working under the assumption that people of different races are capable of getting similar scores. With that said, it is still possible to see (to a reasonable extent) if racial inequity in scores is based on inherent differences or societal discrimination.

As long as one can isolate the factors causing societal discrimination, one can see if the problem is external. For example, having identified stereotype threat, one can empirically test if stereotype threat is hurting URMs. I don't know to what extent the disparity is based on external factors, but I can say that some of it can be explained by such factors as stereotype threat without resorting to my personal bias.

Second, regarding recent immigrants, the recent immigrant pool is different from American-born URMs in hard to quantify ways. While you can control for income (and will probably still see recent immigrants outperform American born URM while doing so) it is hard to control for social networking. My gut tells me a disproportionately large percent of recent immigrants have strong social networks through business interactions.

I must admit I have no actual data to back up this final claim.

I think it might be exactly the opposite; recent immigrants have weaker social networks, by virtue of the fact that they have left their old communities and entered new ones.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Spallenzani on November 11, 2004, 04:21:17 PM
If anyone here is implying by their arguments that blacks can't score as well as whites on standardized tests, you have some serious issues. Given an equal playing field, w/o discrimination , blacks would do equally as well. Anyone who argues otherwise, I would have to say has problems. I have many African-American friends who have done well on their SATs, and LSATS, and am sure when they get to law school they will kick ass.

I think the only person claiming this is Lobe, who is in favor of Affirmative Action.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Spallenzani on November 11, 2004, 04:24:30 PM
Agreed. I don't contend that the statistics and data you present is incorrect, I'm interested in asking why? Why is it that blacks, which come from advantaged background are still not achieving higher scores? I wouldn't argue it has to do with their innate intelligence (though some might consider this a possibility) but perhaps is caused by social pressures. Sociologists have been developing theories that even blacks that grow up in economically advantaged families feel a pressure from other blacks to still act ghetto and underachieve. Tell you truth, I just dont know. That's why I try not to draw any decisive conclusions on the AA issue b/c i think it is complex. Just my 2 cents.

It's also important to note that IQ isn't merely (or even mostly) determined by biology, but by social factors like income levels, early education levels, parental involvement, etc.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: rwhitman on November 11, 2004, 04:34:29 PM

This discussion is tired, old, and quickly becoming ignorant.  I'm out.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: JohnB. on November 11, 2004, 05:00:51 PM
Regal for someone who got over a 170 you say some of the dumbest stuff. You continue to bring in unfounded information into your claims.



Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Spallenzani on November 11, 2004, 05:17:55 PM
All this talk about racism and discrimination being so deeply ingrained in American society, I often wonder how much explicit, overt racism people here actually experience in their day-to-day lives.

I am Jewish, and openly so. I rarely encounter anti-Semitism in face-to-face encounters, so it is shocking when it does happen. On the other hand, online, I encounter it almost every day. While posting in this thread, I've been involved in another thread on a different forum with people that I generally agree with and get along with when discussing most issues. But when it comes to issues like race, ethnicity, and specifically Jewish ethnicity, the comments are so abrasive that I've almost grown accustomed to them. Almost.

Here are just a few of the comments people have made so far in this single thread (http://anti-state.com/forum/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=12111):

"Hey Spallenzani...  you arent jooish are you?"

I responded, "Yes, I am Jewish, and I find the term you used childish and offensive."

To which the original poster replied with a picture of Justin Timberlake's album, "Cry Me A River."

The next person in the thread wrote:

Quote
I dont hate jews because it is un-pc to do so.. I dislike jews because they are just about the snobbiest motherfuckers I have ever met (you are proving to be no exception).  just like I dislike the average negro because they are always the ones to cop an attitude like I owe them something because I am white.

that doesnt mean that I wouldnt let a jew or a black shop in a store I owned,  just that I dont like most jews or blacks.

you should give up trying to peddle your "righteous" indignation,  cause no body here buys it.

Followed up by another person:

Quote
I could never see myself as being an anti-Semite—after all, some of my best lampshades are Jewish.

And finally (so far), in response to my objections to this vicious anti-Semitism,

Quote
You play up your Jewness. And your Jewness clouds so much of what you think.

This stuff hurts, and I often wonder how many people I meet in life share similar views but don't admit it in public.

Another interesting thing: If you go to the various neo-nazi and white power websites, the vast majority of their hatred is directed at Jews, and very little at blacks. I think this might be because the Middle East issue creates a convenient and topical scapegoat. I am curious to see if their emphasized objects of scorn will change if the M-E conflict is ever resolved.

On the other hand, despite this bigotry, I've never felt like I've been disadvantaged on account of my ethnicity.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Sequoia on November 11, 2004, 05:43:26 PM
Regal for someone who got over a 170 you say some of the dumbest stuff. You continue to bring in unfounded information into your claims.

Oh stop.

Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: JohnB. on November 11, 2004, 06:05:35 PM
Regal for someone who got over a 170 you say some of the dumbest stuff. You continue to bring in unfounded information into your claims.

Oh stop.




Alright.

Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Regal_Muse on November 11, 2004, 10:41:44 PM
Regal for someone who got over a 170 you say some of the dumbest stuff. You continue to bring in unfounded information into your claims.






Dumb stuff? Are you kidding me? What is so dumb about my comments?

Who are you again?

It’s so comforting to know that these are going to be my peers in law school.


 ;D

Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: JohnB. on November 12, 2004, 10:52:01 AM
Regal for someone who got over a 170 you say some of the dumbest stuff. You continue to bring in unfounded information into your claims.






Dumb stuff? Are you kidding me? What is so dumb about my comments?

Who are you again?

It’s so comforting to know that these are going to be my peers in law school.


 ;D



Show proof next time instead of going off with the mouth.

Anyway . . . I hate being called a racist just for not liking some things that associates with black people. Yes I'm against A.A. and yes I'm against basketball players and rappers making millions of dollars. But for someone to make a leap conclusion that i'm a racist for that is stupid.

So just be careful what you say. Not you specifically RegalMuse . . . just people in general.


Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: superiorlobe on November 12, 2004, 11:16:05 AM
The word racist has lost all its meaning anyway. If someone is opposed to AA, they are racist. If someone supports welfare reform, they are racist.  Etc.  No one cares anymore.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: mivida2k on November 12, 2004, 12:15:58 PM
You show me proof that URMs are taking "your" spots.

And I am against these Corporate CEOs swindling folks about about of billions of dollards and not being prosecuted. 

Racism is associated with "white" people.  That does not mean I hate you.

Are you against baseball and hockey players from making millions of dollars?  What about country and heavy metal singers?

Regal had very good arguments.  Maybe you should show proof.  Cause according to the LSAC ABA stats you are the one runing off at the mouth. 

This thread is proof that this country and society has a long way to go.


Regal for someone who got over a 170 you say some of the dumbest stuff. You continue to bring in unfounded information into your claims.






Dumb stuff? Are you kidding me? What is so dumb about my comments?

Who are you again?

It’s so comforting to know that these are going to be my peers in law school.


 ;D



Show proof next time instead of going off with the mouth.

Anyway . . . I hate being called a racist just for not liking some things that associates with black people. Yes I'm against A.A. and yes I'm against basketball players and rappers making millions of dollars. But for someone to make a leap conclusion that i'm a racist for that is stupid.

So just be careful what you say. Not you specifically RegalMuse . . . just people in general.



Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: rwhitman on November 12, 2004, 12:31:12 PM
You show me proof that URMs are taking "your" spots.

And I am against these Corporate CEOs swindling folks about about of billions of dollards and not being prosecuted. 

Racism is associated with "white" people.  That does not mean I hate you.

Are you against baseball and hockey players from making millions of dollars?  What about country and heavy metal singers?

Regal had very good arguments.  Maybe you should show proof.  Cause according to the LSAC ABA stats you are the one runing off at the mouth. 

This thread is proof that this country and society has a long way to go.

Corporate CEO's are neither here nor there. I doubt anyone would agree that what they are doing is right.

Maybe you associate racism with white people but many would think afirmative action is a form of racism against white people.  Who are these "white people" anyways? Spallenzani had an interesting point about his experiences as a jewish american.  I know when my forefathers came to this country from ireland they were persecuted too- damn mics..etc...
I think every nationality has experienced racism at one time or another.

You and regal both have those knee-jerk responses lashing back with no proof or evidence, just a lot of inflammatory rhetoric. Hopefully that's not the education all USC and UCLA grads are getting.

This thread IS proof this country has a long way to go, surely nobody in their right might wants affirmative action to still be around generations from now. It's difficult to understand why that system is still required for some nationalities to compete while others have adapted to this country years ago. Take the Italians, Jewish people, and Asian-Americans for example.  The Chinese and Japanese were persecuted in this country for generations but now have the reputation of being very intelligent and certainly don't need afirmative action to get into top schools.

As for proof that afirmative action is taking seats from more qualified students, I don't have the patience to dig up the research. I would think this one is fairly obvious though.  Check Montauk's book for example, I think African Americans can add 5 pts to their LSAT score and Indians 10 pts or something like that. I am part american indian too but will not put that on my applications b/c I don't feel that it's something I've really been persecuted for or deserve.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: mivida2k on November 12, 2004, 12:44:43 PM
White folks created AA.  And whites benefit from AA on a daily basis. 

My "white" was in reference to their not actually being a white race.

I remember the Irish history here.  I, also, remember the Irish/Af-Am relationship and subsequent murders.

My answers were to use the exact same logic that Bolster used.  As you can see, it does not make sense.

The comments that some have made that one group of people is genetically inferior is proof that this country has a long way to go.  As far as AA, did I mention that- no.  Though in the upcoming years for whites.......as the population changes I expect a different stance.

How are points taking seats away from more qualified? So a "URM" with a 173 and 3.8 is taking a "white's" seat who has a 173 and 3.8?

chuckle chuckle

Have a good weekend and bath in self-loathing. 
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: rwhitman on November 12, 2004, 12:49:22 PM
White folks created AA.  And whites benefit from AA on a daily basis. 

My "white" was in reference to their not actually being a white race.

I remember the Irish history here.  I, also, remember the Irish/Af-Am relationship and subsequent murders.

My answers were to use the exact same logic that Bolster used.  As you can see, it does not make sense.

The comments that some have made that one group of people is genetically inferior is proof that this country has a long way to go.  As far as AA, did I mention that- no.  Though in the upcoming years for whites.......as the population changes I expect a different stance.

How are points taking seats away from more qualified? So a "URM" with a 173 and 3.8 is taking a "white's" seat who has a 173 and 3.8?

chuckle chuckle

Have a good weekend and bath in self-loathing. 

I doubt anyone would have a problem with URM's getting accepted with the same stats. The point, which you have missed, is that SOME urm's get accepted to fill quotes and are not as qualified as other applicants who are rejected. I see this happening with legacies as well and I don't agree with that either.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: superiorlobe on November 12, 2004, 01:31:48 PM
This is from the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education

In the 2002-03 academic year... only 21 black students scored 170 or above.

Now suppose we drop the LSAT scoring threshold to 165 — equivalent to the median LSAT score of students at the nation's 15 highest-ranked law schools. Things do not look much better. In 2002-03 only 79 blacks nationwide scored 165 or above on the LSAT.


http://www.jbhe.com/latest/052704_blacks_and_LSAT.html



From http://www.blackcommentator.com/20_re_print_pr.html

In 1996, there were only two black students in the country who received LSAT's over 170 and had GPA's of 3.75 or better.



Also, from http://www.dartreview.com/archives/2004/01/23/screw_driver.php
median LSAT score of whites at U of Michigan Law School: 170.
median LSAT score of blacks at U of Michigan Law School: 155.


This is why we need race-based affirmative action. 
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: mivida2k on November 12, 2004, 01:46:16 PM
Quotas are illegal. There PS and other aspects of their lives that outway scores.  What is the definition of qualification?

White folks created AA.  And whites benefit from AA on a daily basis. 

My "white" was in reference to their not actually being a white race.

I remember the Irish history here.  I, also, remember the Irish/Af-Am relationship and subsequent murders.

My answers were to use the exact same logic that Bolster used.  As you can see, it does not make sense.

The comments that some have made that one group of people is genetically inferior is proof that this country has a long way to go.  As far as AA, did I mention that- no.  Though in the upcoming years for whites.......as the population changes I expect a different stance.

How are points taking seats away from more qualified? So a "URM" with a 173 and 3.8 is taking a "white's" seat who has a 173 and 3.8?

chuckle chuckle

Have a good weekend and bath in self-loathing. 

I doubt anyone would have a problem with URM's getting accepted with the same stats. The point, which you have missed, is that SOME urm's get accepted to fill quotes and are not as qualified as other applicants who are rejected. I see this happening with legacies as well and I don't agree with that either.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: superiorlobe on November 12, 2004, 01:52:39 PM
I doubt anyone would have a problem with URM's getting accepted with the same stats.

The problem is that there are no URMs with the same stats.  Only 21 black students scored over 170 last year, and it is likely that most of them had GPAs below 3.75.

The number of blacks with 3.75+ and 170+ numbers is probably about 6 or 7.  But a 3.75/170 is not competitive at HYS.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Spallenzani on November 12, 2004, 01:55:13 PM
This is from the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education

In the 2002-03 academic year... only 21 black students scored 170 or above.

Now suppose we drop the LSAT scoring threshold to 165 — equivalent to the median LSAT score of students at the nation's 15 highest-ranked law schools. Things do not look much better. In 2002-03 only 79 blacks nationwide scored 165 or above on the LSAT.


http://www.jbhe.com/latest/052704_blacks_and_LSAT.html



From http://www.blackcommentator.com/20_re_print_pr.html

In 1996, there were only two black students in the country who received LSAT's over 170 and had GPA's of 3.75 or better.



Also, from http://www.dartreview.com/archives/2004/01/23/screw_driver.php
median LSAT score of whites at U of Michigan Law School: 170.
median LSAT score of blacks at U of Michigan Law School: 155.


This is why we need race-based affirmative action. 

We also need race-based grading on law school exams, race-based criteria for acceptance on law review (http://catallarchy.net/blog/archives/2004/10/30/think-affirmative-action-ends-at-the-admissions-office), race-based hiring for 1L summer corporate internships, race-based passage rates for bar exams, race-based hiring for corporate, academic, and public interest jobs (which already exists), race-based criteria for writing a persuasive memo, race-based criteria for making a strong argument before a judge, race-based criteria for defending one's client against criminal charges, race-based...

Clearly, a 15-point LSAT boost is not enough to ensure success in one's legal career.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: The ZAPINATOR on November 12, 2004, 01:57:04 PM
"Basically, if you don't want to think about the matter too hard, then you can just make up your mind and then find some website that supports you." - Lobe

See Lobe, now you're talking! ;)

ZAP
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: rwhitman on November 12, 2004, 02:10:48 PM
Quotas may be illegal but can anyone honestly tell me they think if a school only has 10% URM then they will not bend the admissions criteria to try to get more? Or if they only have 20-30% female(or male) they won't try to get more? They just are called quotas anymore, it's called 'having a diverse class'.

To clarify what I meant by qualifications, I meant scores, EC's, WE, and any other accomplishments a person may have.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Tobias Beecher on November 12, 2004, 02:17:41 PM
stop whinning and work hard yourself.

Bitter white males..... ::)

Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: rwhitman on November 12, 2004, 02:21:49 PM
stop whinning and work hard yourself.
Bitter white males..... ::)

I'm sure anyone applying to top schools has been working very hard.

Get back on your short bus. HTH
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Tobias Beecher on November 12, 2004, 02:48:05 PM
stop whinning and work hard yourself.
Bitter white males..... ::)

I'm sure anyone applying to top schools has been working very hard.

Get back on your short bus. HTH

But you see, some people are incapable of doing that, since they are not good enough for the top schools themselves, what do they do?

Blame the minorities, of course.

"OMG they stole my spot!"

The truth is, everyone admited to certain schools were uniquely qualified for that school, and no one is "stealing" anyone's seat.

Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: rwhitman on November 12, 2004, 02:50:55 PM


Quote
The truth is, everyone admited to certain schools were uniquely qualified for that school, and no one is "stealing" anyone's seat.

how do you know this?
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Sequoia on November 12, 2004, 03:20:41 PM
Stealing seats?

Oh boy . . .

Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: AMB22 on November 12, 2004, 03:25:46 PM
Stealing seats?

Oh boy . . .



I just wanted to point out that most people aren't saying that anyone is "taking their seat". Everytime there is a thread about affirmative action the advocates of affirmative action like to charecterize any argument against affirmative action as "I'm afraid minorities will take my seat" to make it easier to make fun of them and criticize them.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Casper on November 12, 2004, 03:40:12 PM
If I possessed some unique qualities, and I had stats that were lower than yours?  Would I be stealing your seat?  I think not.   :o
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: superiorlobe on November 12, 2004, 03:50:28 PM
If I possessed some unique qualities, and I had stats that were lower than yours?  Would I be stealing your seat?  I think not.   :o

What if the person with lower stats had an LSAT that was 15 points lower?  What about 20 point lower?  I am in favor of affirmative action, but I do think it is stealing seats.  I guess I am just in favor of blacks stealing seats.  *shrugs*
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: scurred1 on November 12, 2004, 03:57:25 PM


Quote
The truth is, everyone admited to certain schools were uniquely qualified for that school, and no one is "stealing" anyone's seat.

how do you know this?



Steal: to take the property of another wrongfully and especially as an habitual or regular practice (Merriam Webster)

So, are you saying that you can claim rightful ownership to a seat in law school? And just assuming that you were claiming that right, based on the fact that you're an American citizen and you get all the rights and privileges that come along with that, wouldn't that same privilege extend to an American-born black? Or do they have less of a claim to these privileges than you do?

By the way, (as as it's been said 10 million times in all of these AA threads) these are private schools and they'll take whomever they want. If Yale chooses a blind, Hispanic lesbian with a 149/3.2 over an Olympic athlete with 4.0/179, what can you do about it? That's life. Deal with it! They care about their needs, not yours. Sorry.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Casper on November 12, 2004, 04:03:57 PM


Quote
The truth is, everyone admited to certain schools were uniquely qualified for that school, and no one is "stealing" anyone's seat.

how do you know this?



Steal: to take the property of another wrongfully and especially as an habitual or regular practice (Merriam Webster)

So, are you saying that you can claim rightful ownership to a seat in law school? And just assuming that you were claiming that right, based on the fact that you're an American citizen and you get all the rights and privileges that come along with that, wouldn't that same privilege extend to an American-born black? Or do they have less of a claim to these privileges than you do?

By the way, (as as it's been said 10 million times in all of these AA threads) these are private schools and they'll take whomever they want. If Yale chooses a blind, Hispanic lesbian with a 149/3.2 over an Olympic athlete with 4.0/179, what can you do about it? That's life. Deal with it! They care about their needs, not yours. Sorry.


technically, you're wrong.  Although, under certain circumstances, you may be excempt from certain laws, Yale accepts federal education funding.  In this regard, they aren't allow to discriminate.  Wrong example to use.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Doubledown Trent on November 12, 2004, 04:05:32 PM
I think that affirmative action should be allowed - but for all areas of society.  I'm Korean.  There are no Koreans in the NBA.  This scarred me psychologically growing up because how can one have dreams of playing in the NBA if there's no one in the league that looks like me?  Athletes are seen as heroes and this implies that Koreans can never be heroic.  I know that Koreans make up only a small percentage of the country.  So all I ask for is one Korean in the NBA - and why not me?  I'm 5'10", which is almost tall for a Korean.  I can sometimes touch the rim.  I can school my younger sister and I have cool basketball shoes.  I can also shoot free throws better than Shaq.  I'm even willing to play for the league minimum and will wave my towel from the bench during rallies.  I can be the Korean Mark Madsen, but I'm a slightly better dancer, for an Asian.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on November 12, 2004, 04:08:14 PM
From looking at lawschoolnumbers.com there were blacks that got into top schools with 2.8 gpas. What's going on? I just feel Affirmative Action is destorying our country. A man's work should speak for itself. No pitty points should be given. And I love it when people classify me as a racist because I'm against AA. People wake up . . . dont you see what's going on?

I have no respect for blacks that go into law school based on their skin color. It's reverse discrimination and you know it!! But the capitalist in you wont allow you to admit that you are wrong.

For the record i'm not racist. I have a best friend who is black.




True Genius.

I have a best friend who is black.  That's classic.

I usually don't even respond to garbage like this but three points very quickly:
1. Stop crying
2. White people in america have been receiving "pitty points" for 3 centuries; I don't hear you complaining...?
3. Reverse Disrimination...what is the REVERSE of DISCRIMINATION?



Take it from somebody IN law school, BOTH black and white students are being admitted without proper numbers, kid.  Stop putting the magnifying glass on black students and focus on getting accepted somewhere.   

Nobody's "stealing seats".  Diversity is a legal element of enrollment, and you are a part of it, black, white, latino, everybody.  If you don't like it, take it up with the U.S. Supreme Court.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: shiveringjenny on November 12, 2004, 04:09:36 PM
Asians can throw down on the dance floor. Hey, i know! I've played DDR with my bf... he is twenty times better than me.   :P

  I can be the Korean Mark Madsen, but I'm a slightly better dancer, for an Asian.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Casper on November 12, 2004, 04:13:56 PM
ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.  Last time I was in LA, I saw this dude in kung fu outfit, on the DDR machine playing expert level out on santa monica pier. 
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: scurred1 on November 12, 2004, 04:25:12 PM


Quote
The truth is, everyone admited to certain schools were uniquely qualified for that school, and no one is "stealing" anyone's seat.

how do you know this?



Steal: to take the property of another wrongfully and especially as an habitual or regular practice (Merriam Webster)

So, are you saying that you can claim rightful ownership to a seat in law school? And just assuming that you were claiming that right, based on the fact that you're an American citizen and you get all the rights and privileges that come along with that, wouldn't that same privilege extend to an American-born black? Or do they have less of a claim to these privileges than you do?

By the way, (as as it's been said 10 million times in all of these AA threads) these are private schools and they'll take whomever they want. If Yale chooses a blind, Hispanic lesbian with a 149/3.2 over an Olympic athlete with 4.0/179, what can you do about it? That's life. Deal with it! They care about their needs, not yours. Sorry.


technically, you're wrong.  Although, under certain circumstances, you may be excempt from certain laws, Yale accepts federal education funding.  In this regard, they aren't allow to discriminate.  Wrong example to use.

I agree, that example wasn't the best. But who's to say that the lower-scoring applicant is not more "qualified" than the higher-scoring one? Look on Yale's web site. It explicitly says that they do not make admissions decisions based on numbers alone, as do a lot of other schools' application guidelines. Yeah, they're bullshitting for the most part, but that disclaimer still gives them the leeway to accept anyone they choose based on their own criteria. It may look like discrimination based on the numbers, but it may be a whole different story once you get to see the entire application of both applicants.

*Done beating the dead horse that is this thread*


Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Spallenzani on November 13, 2004, 09:19:05 AM


Quote
The truth is, everyone admited to certain schools were uniquely qualified for that school, and no one is "stealing" anyone's seat.

how do you know this?



Steal: to take the property of another wrongfully and especially as an habitual or regular practice (Merriam Webster)

So, are you saying that you can claim rightful ownership to a seat in law school? And just assuming that you were claiming that right, based on the fact that you're an American citizen and you get all the rights and privileges that come along with that, wouldn't that same privilege extend to an American-born black? Or do they have less of a claim to these privileges than you do?

Amendment XIV

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Quote
By the way, (as as it's been said 10 million times in all of these AA threads) these are private schools and they'll take whomever they want. If Yale chooses a blind, Hispanic lesbian with a 149/3.2 over an Olympic athlete with 4.0/179, what can you do about it? That's life. Deal with it! They care about their needs, not yours. Sorry.

Not all law schools are private schools. The University of Michigan, which was the defendant in the recent Supreme Court cases on Affirmative Action, is a public university.

Further, most private universities accept federal funding. A case could be made against giving federal funding to institutions which engage in racial discrimination.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Tobias Beecher on November 13, 2004, 12:53:26 PM
I don't see how AA is racial discrimination.

And I'm Asian American, you know, we need higher GPA and LSAT than almost every other ethnic group to have a shot @ top schools.

And I'm not bitching or complaining.

You gotta work hard yourself and stop blaming everyone else for your own ills. If you  choose the later route, you are just gonna drown in the sea of bitterness and jealousy ;D



Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Doubledown Trent on November 13, 2004, 01:22:54 PM
Asians can throw down on the dance floor. Hey, i know! I've played DDR with my bf... he is twenty times better than me.   :P


I apologize on behalf of all Asians for DDR.  Really, it was only supposed to be a joke and then it got out of hand. :-\
Clone, I feel your pain, my Asian brother.  I am now going to go customize my Honda while listening to the Pet Shop Boys.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: superiorlobe on November 14, 2004, 07:40:55 AM
http://www.umich.edu/%7Eurel/admissions/legal/gru_amicus-ussc/um/LSAC-gru.pdf


Of the thousands and thousands of applicants near the top of the LSAT and UGPA ranges – the pool from which the nation’s more selective law schools primarily draw – there are only about 25 each year who are black. If admissions were based solely on the UGPA/LSAT index, then that number, dispersed evenly among the ten most selective schools, would leave fewer than three black students in each class – at institutions with class sizes ranging from 150 to 650. In reality, of course, the schools regarded as the most selective would likely attract most of those students, so that it would be mathematically impossible for many other selective law schools to enroll even one black student with numeric scores in the highest ranges. Accordingly, if a selective law school wants to admit a racially and ethnically diverse class, then it may be impossible for the school to limit itself to minority students whose grades and test scores are equal to those of other admitted applicants.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Javert on November 14, 2004, 07:44:15 AM
Without a value judgement, here are some 'back of the envelope' calculations I did;

Quote
http://www.umich.edu/%7Eurel/admissions/legal/gru_amicus-ussc/um/LSAC-gru.pdf

"The raw numbers are startling. For the fall 2002 entering class, there were a total of 4,461 law school applicants who had both LSAT scores of 165 or above and UGPA of 3.5 or above. Of that number, a total of just 29 were black. Only 114 were Hispanic."

Actually, doing more math (operating under the assumption that the numbers are substantially similar)

Yale has 194 entering students, and 6.9% of them are Hispanics. That's 26.
Harvard has 554 entering students, about 4.1% are Hispanic, yeilding 22.
Stanford has 170 entering students, and 12.8% are Hispanic. That's 21 more.
NYU has 430 entering students, and 4.1% are Hispanic. That's 17 more.
Columbia has 395 entering students, and 6.1% are Hispanic. 24 more.

That adds up to 110...virtually the entire supply of Hispanics with a 165/3.5 or better. And that's assuming that Hispanics have perfect information, and are aware that they have a shot at the top five; if not, they'd have to accept even lower numbers for recruitment purposes. That's intriguing, to say the least. I'm sure it's a bit skewed by using data from two different years, but I bet it hasn't changed much.

You know, I really think that public institutions shouldn't be in the business of AA. And my applications are consistent with that philosophy; the only public institutions I've applied to are Boalt, UCLA, UTexas, and UMichigan. The first three are barred from using race as a consideration. The latter one I would most likely get into without race. And that's only an issue if I end up going to Michigan, which I probably won't (great program, but nothing in my chosen field).

But with private institutions, all bets are off. They can do whatever they want. I wish they would be more open about it, but it's their decision.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Tobias Beecher on November 14, 2004, 11:25:06 AM
Asians can throw down on the dance floor. Hey, i know! I've played DDR with my bf... he is twenty times better than me.   :P


I apologize on behalf of all Asians for DDR.  Really, it was only supposed to be a joke and then it got out of hand. :-\
Clone, I feel your pain, my Asian brother.  I am now going to go customize my Honda while listening to the Pet Shop Boys.

LOL!

 ;)
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: burghblast on November 14, 2004, 01:58:14 PM
I'm planning on getting into a "top" school with a 2.86 GPA and I'm not black.  I'm an engineer.  Do you have any friends who are engineers too? :)

GPA is only one factor in admissions decisions.  Granted it's the second most important next to LSAT, but you have to consider the GPA in it's full context - Such as major and overall quality of the undergrad school.  Also, GPA means much less for applicants who have been out of school for several years and in the working world.  Maybe some of the minorities who were admitted with low GPA's had other qualifications - Like work experience - beyond skin color. 
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: ElizaB on November 14, 2004, 02:05:40 PM
You know, I really think that public institutions shouldn't be in the business of AA. And my applications are consistent with that philosophy; the only public institutions I've applied to are Boalt, UCLA, UTexas, and UMichigan. The first three are barred from using race as a consideration. The latter one I would most likely get into without race. And that's only an issue if I end up going to Michigan, which I probably won't (great program, but nothing in my chosen field).

But with private institutions, all bets are off. They can do whatever they want. I wish they would be more open about it, but it's their decision.

Is this true of UTexas?  That they can't use race as a factor in the consideration of the admission's process?  How did you find this out?  I had not heard this and assumed that they did since they have such a large percentage of Hispanic students and are the "#1 law school for Hispanics." 
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: burghblast on November 14, 2004, 02:09:57 PM
You know, I really think that public institutions shouldn't be in the business of AA. And my applications are consistent with that philosophy; the only public institutions I've applied to are Boalt, UCLA, UTexas, and UMichigan. The first three are barred from using race as a consideration. The latter one I would most likely get into without race. And that's only an issue if I end up going to Michigan, which I probably won't (great program, but nothing in my chosen field).

But with private institutions, all bets are off. They can do whatever they want. I wish they would be more open about it, but it's their decision.

Is this true of UTexas?  That they can't use race as a factor in the consideration of the admission's process?  How did you find this out?  I had not heard this and assumed that they did since they have such a large percentage of Hispanic students and are the "#1 law school for Hispanics." 

Hispanics aren't really a "minority" in Texas.  Have you ever been there? 
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: ElizaB on November 14, 2004, 02:14:15 PM
You know, I really think that public institutions shouldn't be in the business of AA. And my applications are consistent with that philosophy; the only public institutions I've applied to are Boalt, UCLA, UTexas, and UMichigan. The first three are barred from using race as a consideration. The latter one I would most likely get into without race. And that's only an issue if I end up going to Michigan, which I probably won't (great program, but nothing in my chosen field).

But with private institutions, all bets are off. They can do whatever they want. I wish they would be more open about it, but it's their decision.

Is this true of UTexas?  That they can't use race as a factor in the consideration of the admission's process?  How did you find this out?  I had not heard this and assumed that they did since they have such a large percentage of Hispanic students and are the "#1 law school for Hispanics." 

Hispanics aren't really a "minority" in Texas.  Have you ever been there? 

I lived in Texas for my entire life.  I grew up in Laredo.  I think I was the only non-hispanic in my entire elementary school...literally.  I now live in San Antonio.  However, hispanics are still the "minority" in law school.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Javert on November 14, 2004, 02:16:50 PM
Eliza: http://aad.english.ucsb.edu/docs/clayton.html

Quote
American college and university officials are nervously wondering which court case the US Supreme Court will take to decide once and for all whether it is permissible to use race as a factor in college admissions. They didn't get any relief from that tension yesterday.

The court's decision to let stand a University of Texas law school case that struck down race preferences in five states seems unlikely to shock - or hearten - supporters or detractors of race-based preferences in college admission.

Quote
In the landmark Texas case, the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals let stand a lower-court decision that found that the goal of school diversity was not sufficient justification for the use of race-based preferences in selecting incoming freshmen. That ruling was a bombshell for those favoring affirmative action in college admissions.

Michingan's program passed muster, but Texas's did not. It's my understanding that they scrapped racial preferences, rather than adopt a new program..... but I'm not 100% sure. I suspect the high percentage of Hispanics is a by-product of preferences for in-state residents.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: ElizaB on November 14, 2004, 02:19:53 PM
Thanks, Javert!  I did not know this.  I have learned something new today!
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: burghblast on November 14, 2004, 02:22:59 PM
You know, I really think that public institutions shouldn't be in the business of AA. And my applications are consistent with that philosophy; the only public institutions I've applied to are Boalt, UCLA, UTexas, and UMichigan. The first three are barred from using race as a consideration. The latter one I would most likely get into without race. And that's only an issue if I end up going to Michigan, which I probably won't (great program, but nothing in my chosen field).

But with private institutions, all bets are off. They can do whatever they want. I wish they would be more open about it, but it's their decision.

Is this true of UTexas?  That they can't use race as a factor in the consideration of the admission's process?  How did you find this out?  I had not heard this and assumed that they did since they have such a large percentage of Hispanic students and are the "#1 law school for Hispanics." 

Hispanics aren't really a "minority" in Texas.  Have you ever been there? 

I lived in Texas for my entire life.  I grew up in Laredo.  I think I was the only non-hispanic in my entire elementary school...literally.  I now live in San Antonio.  However, hispanics are still the "minority" in law school.

I lived in Dallas for 2 years when I was in high school.  My school was fairly evenly segregated, but I worked at a fast food restaurant and spent most of my time hanging out with friends from work.  I was pretty much the only white guy.  Your point about being in the minority geographically vs. being in the minority among those who actually choose to attend law school raises an interesting question.  Is AA meant to even the playing field for those who have faced adversity and disadvantage due to being a minority, or is it meant to create more diversity at schools that lack specific categories of people in their student body?  I guess it's supposed to do both.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Everyman on November 14, 2004, 02:29:26 PM
Holy *&^% I can't believe this stupid troll is eleven pages.

Only arabic/white mixed people should get AA ;)
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: TrojanChispas on November 14, 2004, 02:36:08 PM
so legacies are ok but diversity is not?
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Javert on November 14, 2004, 02:39:25 PM
You're welcome Eliza.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: vagrant on November 14, 2004, 02:44:37 PM
so legacies are ok but diversity is not?

Is this in response to someone in particular or are you just bringing up this tired argument again.  Every time this has been posted, every white person on here has agreed we should get rid of legacy points.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: TrojanChispas on November 14, 2004, 02:51:11 PM
just curious, why did the supreme court uphold legacy considerations?  did it occur to them the the group of people that are the first to go to college would be disenfranchised?
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: vagrant on November 14, 2004, 02:53:20 PM
just curious, why did the supreme court uphold legacy considerations?  did it occur to them the the group of people that are the first to go to college would be disenfranchised?

last i checked the supreme court also upheld non-quota AA.

The Supreme Court's decisions have little to do with what people believe on this board, regardless.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Gin&Juice on November 14, 2004, 03:08:20 PM
Blunts ur pic of Bigsby if f-ing hilarious.  That was the funniest *&^% on tha show.

On a personal note, I wish threads like this would die.  Complaining about the use of AA won't affect schools using it.  And as far as white people asking if they are an URM, asking a bunch of people on the internet is irrelevant to whether u are or not.  Last I recall no application had a check box for underrepresented minority.   ::)  I think it is more important to convey how ur ethnicity has affected u growing up or how u think u can contribute bc of it in a diversity statement than checking a bunch of boxes.  Plus those whining about it should be about socioeconomic status, a lot of schools are asking about this (such as Berkeley and UCLA).

just curious, why did the supreme court uphold legacy considerations?  did it occur to them the the group of people that are the first to go to college would be disenfranchised?
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Spallenzani on November 14, 2004, 05:34:34 PM
just curious, why did the supreme court uphold legacy considerations?  did it occur to them the the group of people that are the first to go to college would be disenfranchised?

Legacy preferences don't require strict scrutiny because legacy discrimination is not unconstitutional. Racial preferences do require scrict scrutiny because racial discrimination is unconstitutional, barring a compelling interest.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Spallenzani on November 14, 2004, 05:37:20 PM
just curious, why did the supreme court uphold legacy considerations?  did it occur to them the the group of people that are the first to go to college would be disenfranchised?

last i checked the supreme court also upheld non-quota AA.

The Court's position is a bit more complicated than that. The policy in Gratz was not a quota system, yet it was rejected as unconstitutional by the court.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Casper on November 14, 2004, 05:40:00 PM
Modbee.com
LINDA SEEBACH: Law-school racial disparities

Scripps Howard News Service

(SH) - Law schools are among the most assiduous users and defenders of racial preferences in admissions. The people who run them evidently believe both that it is a desirable goal to increase the number of African-Americans and other minorities who become lawyers and that the goal cannot be reached in any other way.

So you can imagine the dismay caused by a study arguing that the net effect of preferences is to reduce the number of African-Americans who successfully pass the bar and lowers their income as well. The author is UCLA law professor Richard Sander, and a draft of his article is available at www1.law.ucla.edu/~sander/. The article is to be published in the Stanford Law Review.

Preference advocates were quick to respond. David Chambers and Richard Lempert, both of the University of Michigan Law School, Timothy Clydesdale from The College of New Jersey and William Kidder of the Equal Justice Society drafted a critique, available at www.lsacnet.org/response/Sander-public-version-3.pdf.

I'll outline Sander's argument for you, but it's the critique that is particularly interesting, because the authors' arguments could be taken wholesale from the anti-preference side. It's almost as if they were so desperate to discredit Sander's results that they forgot these are exactly the arguments they've been trying so long and so hard to deny.

The performance of African-American students on the Law School Admission Test is very much weaker than that of white students. The reason is in dispute, but the regrettable fact is not. So in order to have as many black students as they think suitable, law schools admit black students with substantially lower undergraduate grades and LSAT scores than whites. The most elite schools admit students who would be competitive at a second-tier school, which then has to admit students who aren't competitive with its white applicants, and so forth.

The result of this mismatch is that black law students get very low grades - the median black student gets first-year grades at about the 7th or 8th percentile. Students who get low grades, whatever their race, are more likely to drop out, and if they do graduate, are less likely to pass the bar exam. And except for those attending the most elite schools, the benefit of attending a more prestigious school is outweighed by employers' low opinion of low grades.

Sander's conclusion is that, in the absence of preferences, the number of African-Americans passing the bar would rise by almost 9 percent.

That sounds entirely too sunny to me, but I think he's made a reasonable case that the effects of a truly race-neutral admissions policy would not be catastrophic. The authors of the critique, however, emphatically disagree.

They estimate that the proportion of African-American students who would no longer be admitted to any law school is at least 24 percent. Furthermore, they suggest that many African-American students would not want to attend the law schools that would be willing to have them, or as they put it, abandon law "rather than attend a law school that seems to have little prestige or attend a law school where only one or two of their classmates are black."

The authors cite research that "in general, African-American students do not in fact perform as well as whites within the same law schools even when they have similar LSATs and UGPAs (undergraduate grades)."

Without preferences, they say, "many of the black students who today get into the 14th ranked schools would be admitted only to the 60th or 70th ranked school."

Top schools would have only 1 percent to 2 percent of African-Americans, they say, instead of the 7 percent to 12 percent they have now in states where racial preferences are permitted.

I have to remind you that these are people who are defending the current system, conceding the huge role racial preferences play in admissions while the official spin is that race is only one of many "plus factors," that all affirmative-action students are qualified, and that they are just as likely to succeed.

Not so. The Bar Passage Study conducted by the Law School Admission Council for students starting law school in 1991 found that 19.2 percent of black students failed to complete their studies within six years, compared with 8.2 percent of white students. Among students who took the bar exam up to five times, all but 3.3 percent of white students eventually passed it, but 22.4 percent of black students never did.

Sander believes that those disparities would shrink substantially if students were better matched to their schools, and the critique authors think the effect, if any, would be small and possibly negative. But couldn't everyone agree that the current situation is calamitous, and start to look seriously about what could be done to ameliorate it?


Posted on 11/12/04 12:39:00
http://www.modbee.com/24hour/opinions/story/1818037p-9703312c.html
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Runner-up on November 14, 2004, 10:16:41 PM
Give a good reason why the student body of a law school has to be diverse?
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Casper on November 14, 2004, 10:36:36 PM
Could you please define diversity?   :D
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Runner-up on November 14, 2004, 10:42:24 PM
I would hope that when we mean diversity, we mean people who have majored in both the humanities and the hard sciences- ACADEMIC diversity for all you numb nuts on this board.

But, it seems to me that instead, the accepted meaning of diversity is students who are black, latino, gay, lesbian, transgender, the whole works. Why must a law school be diverse in that regard?
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Casper on November 14, 2004, 10:52:37 PM
From that, I would say law school's prefers a diverse students from different background, in which they have experienced living in different environments.     You may have the same students who studied under the same majors, but have different backgrounds which they would contribute to diverse viewpoints. 
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Spallenzani on November 15, 2004, 09:07:13 AM
From that, I would say law school's prefers a diverse students from different background, in which they have experienced living in different environments.     You may have the same students who studied under the same majors, but have different backgrounds which they would contribute to diverse viewpoints. 

And of course, people who share the same skin color or ethnicity don't necessarily share the same viewpoints. The belief that they do is itself a form of racism.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: TrojanChispas on November 15, 2004, 11:29:26 AM
but people of different skin color have different perspectives because of the inherent racism in our country.  our founding fathers were slave owners and tried to profess all that bs about everyman being equal, but were actually hypocrites.  as a minority i rarely see those that look like me in leadership positions (doctors, lawyers, politicians, etc.)  furthermore, our ancestors were abused over the longest periods of time, had land taken from them and were used as slaves.  would these historical facts change your opinon about america if you were not white?
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: TrojanChispas on November 15, 2004, 11:30:33 AM
didnt the japanese get reparations for their land loss and internment????
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: killblues on November 15, 2004, 12:02:05 PM
My only beef with AA is that some African Americans who come from comfortable backgrounds may be benefitted just because they're African Americans, while some White Americans may not be just because they're white.  Otherwise I think it's ok.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: superiorlobe on November 15, 2004, 12:56:23 PM
My only beef with AA is that some African Americans who come from comfortable backgrounds may be benefitted just because they're African Americans, while some White Americans may not be just because they're white.  Otherwise I think it's ok.

dude, you don't get it.  Even blacks from comfortable backgrounds should get AA because blacks as a whole do not score as well on the LSAT regardless of how comfortable their backgrounds are.  Even blacks from very wealthy families whose parents have graduate degrees do not score as well on standardized tests as whites and asians do.  So we need race-based AA in order to make sure we have some blacks in the good law schools.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Spallenzani on November 15, 2004, 03:11:34 PM
My only beef with AA is that some African Americans who come from comfortable backgrounds may be benefitted just because they're African Americans, while some White Americans may not be just because they're white.  Otherwise I think it's ok.

dude, you don't get it.  Even blacks from comfortable backgrounds should get AA because blacks as a whole do not score as well on the LSAT regardless of how comfortable their backgrounds are.  Even blacks from very wealthy families whose parents have graduate degrees do not score as well on standardized tests as whites and asians do.  So we need race-based AA in order to make sure we have some blacks in the good law schools.

Lobe, what are your thoughts on Rick Sander's argument (the author of the article that's been floating around lately) that "racial preferences [in the law school admissions process] tend to systematically lower black performance in law school, black graduation rates, and black rates of success on the bar exam"?

Sander has been guest posting at the Volokh Conspiracy, one of the top law-oriented blogs, for the past week or two, discussing his recent research on the detrimental effects of Affirmative Action for black law students and lawyers. You can read his posts here (http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2004_11_00.shtml#1099680397).

So do you think the benefits of having more blacks in first tier law schools outweighs the costs of having fewer successful black lawyers?
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: mivida2k on November 20, 2004, 05:00:04 PM
Tulsa Reparations Coalition
Sponsored by The Center for Racial Justice, a 501(3)(c) tax-exempt non-profit corporation
1314 North Greenwood Avenue, Tulsa, OK 74106    (918) 378-8838
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


T R C   S T A T E M E N T  O F  E N D O R S E M E N T


GUIDED by our commitment to justice and the findings and recommendations of "The Tulsa Race Riot, A Report by the Oklahoma Commission to Study the Tulsa Race Riot of 1921," submitted to Governor Frank Keating, the Oklahoma State Legislature, Tulsa Mayor Susan Savage and the Tulsa City Council on February 28, 2001 and


WHEREAS the Tulsa Race Riot is consistent with a pattern of White, riotous assaults upon African American communities throughout early 20th century America; and


WHEREAS according to the Commission's report, the following events occurred on May 31 - June 1, 1921:

On May 31st, the Tulsa Tribune ran a story covering the arrest of a young Black man jailed for assaulting a White elevator operator based on accusations that were later recanted.

The Tribune edition also contained an inflammatory editorial that not only suggested but incited that there would be a lynching. Following release of the paper, frenzy spread across the White Tulsa community in anticipation of a lynching and across the Black Tulsa community in defense of one.

In the presence of approximately 2,000 White Tulsans, 75 African Americans, some of them World War I veterans, met the Sheriff at the Courthouse, offering to assist in protecting the prisoner.

A struggle ensued between a White Tulsan seeking to disarm one of these veterans and rioting began as a result of the gun being fired.

The City of Tulsa Police Department deputized 500 White Tulsans, many of which were largely responsible for the damage suffered by the African American Greenwood business and residential community;

The State of Oklahoma mobilized a unit of the Oklahoma National Guard that subsequently received a machine gun from the City police that was mounted on a flatbed truck and used against the men, women and children of Greenwood.

Through the night, fires were set and fighting continued as Greenwood's war veterans and citizens defended their community from the White attackers, inclusive of men dressed in State National Guard uniforms, City of Tulsa Police uniforms and under the specially deputized badged authority of the Tulsa Police Department.

At daybreak, Greenwood faced an overwhelming assault and massacre by 5,000-10,000 White Tulsans covered by a second machine gun, airborne gunfire and/or the dropping of incendiary devices, whom prominent and youth members of the Ku Klux Klan probably helped to mobilize.

The organized Whites emptied homes, detained residents, murdered those resisting or found to be armed, looted homes and businesses and set them ablaze; and


WHEREAS according to the Commission's report the 18-hour event resulted in:

Around three hundred deaths, according to the Red Cross official report, accounts of credible witnesses, eyewitness accounts of "bodies of blacks stacked like cordwood on Tulsa streets, black bodies piled on trucks, and on trains" and with circumstantial evidence from renowned physical anthropologist, Dr. Clyde Snow, a member of the Commission to Study the Tulsa Race Riot that points to the existence of mass graves;

40 square blocks of 1,265 homes looted and then burned to the ground, including hospitals, schools, and churches owned primarily by African Americans;

150 businesses leveled also by fire and, in some instances, incendiary devices thrown from the air in the Greenwood district now popularly referred to as the "Black Wall Street" of America;

6,000 Black Tulsans involuntarily arrested, detained and released only upon being vouched for by a White employer and/or citizen;

9,000 homeless and living in tents well into the Winter of 1921 and;

An entire generation's inheritance robbed of a people who dared to "lift themselves up by their bootstraps" and live the American dream, only to have it rendered an eternal nightmare; and


WHEREAS, the Oklahoma Legislature which created The 1921 Tulsa Race Riot Commission directed the Commission to develop and authenticate a list of persons who were residents of the Greenwood community in Tulsa at the time of the events of May 31 and June 1, 1921; and


WHEREAS, The 1921 Tulsa Race Riot Commission has identified, contacted, and registered 126 surviving Greenwood community residents from that time period; and


WHEREAS action regarding the Commission's report recommendations is a matter of utmost humanitarian and moral urgency because the 126 survivors of the 1921 Riot are elderly and dying; and


WHEREAS, the Medal of Distinction granted to survivors by the Oklahoma State Legislature was clearly outlined solely to be "a small step in recognition of the harm done to the residents of the Greenwood community on May 31 and June 1, 1921"; and


WHEREAS, the Greenwood community survivors of the events of May 31, 1921, experienced tremendous personal and property loss as the result of the events of those days and those losses have never been properly compensated or recognized; and


WHEREAS, the North Tulsa, Greenwood business and residential district never fully recovered from the riotous assault upon their persons and property on May 31 - June 1, 1921; and


WHEREAS reparations for violations of human rights is fully supported under the International Declaration of Human Rights of the United Nations and


WHEREAS the Oklahoma State Commission to Study the Tulsa Race Riot of 1921 made their beliefs clear: "There is no way but by government to represent the collective, and there is no way but by reparations to make real the responsibility . . . Reparations are the right thing to do" and


WHEREAS there is clear culpability for the environment and sustenance of the Tulsa race riot, war and massacre of 1921 from both the State of Oklahoma and, in particular, the City of Tulsa;


WHEREAS the African American citizens in the City of Tulsa and the State of Oklahoma were deprived of their right to due process under the law as well as life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as outlined in the Constitution of the United States of America,


THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Tulsa Reparations Coalition endorses the recommendations of the Oklahoma Commission to Study the Tulsa Race Riot of 1921 as stated in its Feb. 28, 2001 final report:

1.   Direct payment of reparations to survivors of the Tulsa Race Riot.

2.   Direct payment of reparations to descendants of the survivors of the Tulsa Race Riot.

3.   A scholarship fund available to students affected by the Tulsa Race Riot.

4.   Establishment of an economic development enterprise zone in the historic area of the Greenwood District.

5.   A memorial inclusive of the reburial of any human remains found in the search for unmarked graves of riot victims.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: TrojanChispas on November 20, 2004, 06:23:16 PM
minorities see history much differently than the majority of the populaiton.  founding fathers were hypocrites, the progressive period was really oppressive, and affirmative action is a small concesion fo rthe wrongs that were perpetrated by the LEGAL SYSTEM AGAINST MINORITY COMMUNITIES...dooes anyone really contest the fact that this NATION has treated its minority communities brutally for decades????  does anyone remember that white people in the south used to publish hundreds of post cards with LYNCHINGS on them???/ minorities do!
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: amelus on November 20, 2004, 06:40:10 PM
minorities see history much differently than the majority of the populaiton. founding fathers were hypocrites, the progressive period was really oppressive, and affirmative action is a small concesion fo rthe wrongs that were perpetrated by the LEGAL SYSTEM AGAINST MINORITY COMMUNITIES...dooes anyone really contest the fact that this NATION has treated its minority communities brutally for decades???? does anyone remember that white people in the south used to publish hundreds of post cards with LYNCHINGS on them???/ minorities do!

i'm not sure if you are implying this or not, but many ppl on this board have said it, that b/c of history and past, they want something "given back, to make up for way treated in past." 
you write "minorities see history much differently..."  this is true.  but i just want to point out many minorities dont want anything extra now.  we just want to have an even playing field.  by that i mean, for example in application process, just look at my application like anyone elses---based on #'s, ps, ec's, lor's and the like.  i'm not saying AA good or bad.  i'm just saying there are minorities who have been treated awfully but aren't interested in something "extra" now.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: John Galt on November 20, 2004, 07:04:31 PM
I don't get why people complain about affirmative action because the most basic premise of anti-affirmative action people has never been proven. Namely, that affirmative action allows unqualified applicants to receive admission. Their arguements stem from their own perceptions of qualifications based on numbers.
 
Next, I don't know what all the talk of merit is about. 99% of successful white folks didn't become successful on merit alone. Even today, white children benefit from the legacy of Jim Crow. So spare me this "I wasn't even born during Jim Crow" *&^%. The fact is the benefits are still coming to you as a result while they are still hurting black folks. So don't even mention merit.


John Galt
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: CaliToD.C. on November 20, 2004, 07:08:41 PM
I don't get why people complain about affirmative action because the most basic premise of anti-affirmative action people has never been proven. Namely, that affirmative action allows unqualified applicants to receive admission. Their arguements stem from their own perceptions of qualifications based on numbers.
 
Next, I don't know what all the talk of merit is about. 99% of successful white folks didn't become successful on merit alone. Even today, white children benefit from the legacy of Jim Crow. So spare me this "I wasn't even born during Jim Crow" *&^%. The fact is the benefits are still coming to you as a result while they are still hurting black folks. So don't even mention merit.


John Galt

Nicely put!
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Victor on November 20, 2004, 07:15:04 PM
http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php/topic,12123.0.html


Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: vagrant on November 20, 2004, 09:27:29 PM
but people of different skin color have different perspectives because of the inherent racism in our country.  our founding fathers were slave owners and tried to profess all that bs about everyman being equal, but were actually hypocrites. 

Actually, I don't think they viewed blacks as "men".  Therefore, they weren't be hypocrites, just idiots.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Inches_Inc. on November 20, 2004, 10:22:30 PM
That's what will happen even if AA is abolished

[image removed]
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: swagger on November 21, 2004, 04:16:17 AM
I don't get why people complain about affirmative action because the most basic premise of anti-affirmative action people has never been proven. Namely, that affirmative action allows unqualified applicants to receive admission. Their arguements stem from their own perceptions of qualifications based on numbers.
 
Next, I don't know what all the talk of merit is about. 99% of successful white folks didn't become successful on merit alone. Even today, white children benefit from the legacy of Jim Crow. So spare me this "I wasn't even born during Jim Crow" sh*t. The fact is the benefits are still coming to you as a result while they are still hurting black folks. So don't even mention merit.


John Galt

I quietly chuckled to myself when I read your quote and saw it attributed to John Galt.  I wonder how Ayn Rand would feel about your argument?

"Individualism, not affirmative action, represents the American ideal," adds Michael S. Berliner, executive director of Ayn Rand Institute. "The right to achieve in spite of one's ancestry is the reason that individuals came to our country. Affirmative action is a racial caste system which makes individual achievement irrelevant."

Personally, however, I agree with you.  I am also keenly aware that AA is not keeping me from receiving a fine legal education at a top school.  Spreading the educational wealth of this nation is in the finest spirit of America, the ability to recognize and correct past injustices.  My $.02.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: lawboundFALL05 on November 21, 2004, 05:16:58 AM
These talks about affirmative action are always interesting to me.  I think that this issue really gets us to dig deep and express what we really care about.

I see the heart behind affirmative action, and I understand the perspectives that many supporters of A.A. hold.  I think that what frustrates many opposers of A.A. is that the pro-A.A. people will not admit to two things:

1) That the process of affirmative action will indeed result in some form of racial discrimination by replacing a numerically-qualified, white/asian applicant with a minority applicant.  That minority applicant could be either brilliant or less-qualified.  The issue is that the minority is specifically selected on the basis of race to the exclusion of another person of race.  This is racial discrimination, and no matter what rants the 'pro' side may come up with to justify it, it is still racial discrimination nonetheless.

2)  That at the bitter end of an argument over the legitimacy of affirmative action, the supporters will always need to fall back on an "ends justify the means" narrative.  It will always come down to offering reparations for the slavery issue, or bringing more diversity to the workplace, or giving opportunities to those who would not otherwise have them.  I agree that there is a need to address these issues, but many opposers of A.A. just think that racially discriminating against non-minorities is not the best way to do it. 


I also wonder if any minorities out there consider the negative affects that A.A. has on the culture of non-minority groups.  It causes a tremendous amount of unhealthy, cut-throat competition.  Being a middle-class white person today is very difficult.  If you are not absolutely brilliant, or the member of a powerful family, then it is an uphill battle toward mainstream success.  You will oftentimes see opportunities stripped and given to URM's solely on the basis of race. 

When this level of discrimination is dealt to a minority, that person can retreat to the safety of their respective culture groups (i.e. NAACP) and receive legal representation and reparation.  However, when a white person seeks to do the same, his or her outcries are called 'racist', and any race-based unity and representation is called 'racist' as well. 

At the end of the day, the white person who was discriminated against is told that he has a warped view of the word "qualified", his feelings are not correctly corresponding to reality, and even if they were he needs to pay for the slave-owning behavior of his anscestors. 

My question is:  Where are we headed as a society with this happening? 

If the blacks were not willing to let it be pushed under the rug, then the middle-class whites won't either.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: grizzly on November 21, 2004, 05:20:25 AM
I quietly chuckled to myself when I read your quote and saw it attributed to John Galt.  I wonder how Ayn Rand would feel about your argument?

Personally, however, I agree with you.  I am also keenly aware that AA is not keeping me from receiving a fine legal education at a top school.  Spreading the educational wealth of this nation is in the finest spirit of America, the ability to recognize and correct past injustices.  My $.02.


Who can resist the power of an AA thread?

Swag, first I assume you were being kind with "wondering" how Ayn Rand would feel (how about cold, as she's quite dead).  Rand clearly abhorred AA.

Secondly your statement that AA that does not hurt you is irrelevant unless it is your position that AA would only be wrong if it hurt you.  AA has not significantly affected my life, nor has discrimination against minorities affected me significantly either.  Nonetheless I oppose both on the same principle.

I suspect Rand would argue that schools ought to be allowed to discriminate as they see fit.  (Indeed there exists a strong libertarian argument that discrimination should be lawful in many contexts, including employment.  Of course, that's the starting point in common law.  Having said that, I believe that the best person should be selected for the position, if that person is a purple homosexual martian, so be it.)  Federal money confuses the issue of course.

However, we as a nation have decided to make race a special category, for good or bad.  That is why all of the pro-AA arguments such as legacy are straw men (straw persons?).  It would not be illegal for a business enterprise to hire exclusively from the children of its employees.  However, many companies recognize the dangers of nepotism and specifically do not utilize such a policy.  But there's nothing illegal about it.

Moreover, the courts are clear that "spreading the educational wealth of this nation is in the finest spirit of America, the ability to recognize and correct past injustices" as a rationale would have been illegal in the context of the University of Michigan case.  Instead, the purpose of AA is to enhance the educational environment for all the students, as apparently you will be unable to understand the statute of frauds unless you can get the "black" perspective on the concept.

So we wink at the minority students, take pity on them and admit a substantial percentage (see the LSAC's reports on how few URMs achieve competitive numbers for the tops schools) to the top schools.  That's insulting to the "URMs" who do achieve the required numbers (and there appear to be plenty of them on this board), insulting to the rest of the student body, insulting to the non-URMs (not you and I) who by necessity are displaced and is contrary to the American ideal.

Keep your socks dry and come home safe.

Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: swagger on November 21, 2004, 06:25:14 AM
Thank you, things are much quieter here now.

You make some good points and I will quietly reflect on them.

(Slowly backing away from the debate, knowing he should have just kept his mouth shut)

Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: John Galt on November 21, 2004, 09:32:14 AM
I know my name throws a lot of you guys off. I don't agree with Rand's philosophy. The fact that Rand doesn't agree with AA is irrelevant; most people agree with her theory.


Quote
That the process of affirmative action will indeed result in some form of racial discrimination by replacing a numerically-qualified, white/asian applicant with a minority applicant.  That minority applicant could be either brilliant or less-qualified.  The issue is that the minority is specifically selected on the basis of race to the exclusion of another person of race.  This is racial discrimination, and no matter what rants the 'pro' side may come up with to justify it, it is still racial discrimination nonetheless.

The reason that this is not admitted is because it cannot be proven. Discrimination would be if a person was rejected on the basis of their race. Just because one person is admitted on the basis of race does not mean another person is discriminated based on race. I've never heard of a person being rejected based on race...and I've never seen it proven that if minority applicant A did not get in, then white male B would get in? Could it be that the remaining white applicants with great numbers that were passed over eliminated themselves through some mistake: a conviction, bad personal statement, no work history, ect?For future lawyers, a lot of your conceptions of qualifications are overly simplistic.

Prove your case, please.


John Galt



Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: amelus on November 21, 2004, 11:12:01 AM
I've never heard of a person being rejected based on race...and I've never seen it proven that if minority applicant A did not get in, then white male B would get in?

this is worthless.

of course you dont know of a specific case.  only way you would is if an admissions officer from some place came out and revealed how the process works (they are probably contractually bound not do divulge any information, and even if not, they certainly would ruin reputation if came out and said anything specific about the process that institution did not want revealed).
this is like arguing that, before opening the books of a private business, you should PROVE, the business is corrupt.  of course only the books definitively show if the business is doing something illegal (e.g. dumping) and the company will never show the books to you.

addressing only your statement above, nothing else.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: mivida2k on November 21, 2004, 11:33:05 AM
The main problem is that some American citizens refuse to acknowledge that the evils of discrimination and prejudice still run rampant in our society.  Until America can acknowledge its past and present there will not be a future.



Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Spallenzani on November 27, 2004, 05:34:16 AM
The reason that this is not admitted is because it cannot be proven. Discrimination would be if a person was rejected on the basis of their race. Just because one person is admitted on the basis of race does not mean another person is discriminated based on race. I've never heard of a person being rejected based on race...and I've never seen it proven that if minority applicant A did not get in, then white male B would get in? Could it be that the remaining white applicants with great numbers that were passed over eliminated themselves through some mistake: a conviction, bad personal statement, no work history, ect?For future lawyers, a lot of your conceptions of qualifications are overly simplistic.

Prove your case, please.


John Galt

Jennifer Gratz (http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/02-516.ZS.html) proved her case in front of the U.S. Supreme Court. She won.
Title: Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
Post by: Victor on November 27, 2004, 05:49:21 AM
Yo Spallenzani the fukk is on your mind uppin this thread? are you sick or something?