Law School Discussion

Deciding Where to Go => Choosing the Right Law School => Topic started by: lstudent on March 30, 2004, 10:08:26 AM

Title: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: lstudent on March 30, 2004, 10:08:26 AM
I have applied to several schools, and found myself applying to McGeorge in large part due to the fact that they waived the application fee when submitting an application on-line...

I was accepted to McGeorge, University of the Pacific...
From the literature I have read, I like the program, particularly the variety of courses and areas of specializations.

Ok, my question is this:  The deposit is due April 1, but I am very hesitant to pursue McGeorge any further.  I have not visited the campus, or spoken with anyone about it; my only source of information has been the internet and the view book.  But what I have come across in a few places is that the attrition rate at McGeorge is as high as 26%, or 1 in every 4 students drops out for academic or other reasons during the first year...

Is this true?  Can any one attest to this?  I should be calling McGeorge about this, and may do so later today...

Any input would be greatly appreciated!
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: thechoson on March 30, 2004, 10:12:24 AM
I too was alarmed at the high attrition rate at McGeorge when I was considering it.  (I still am, as a matter of fact)  That high attrition rate seems to be endemic at 3rd and 4th tier schools though.  They do take a high number of students, so that may have something to do with it
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: SpeakerDave on March 30, 2004, 11:03:59 AM
Here is my take on attirtion rate at T3 and T4 schools.  Y

ou will see a high 1st year attrition at the 3rd and 4th tier schools because the first year class is populated with students that can't actually cut it in law school.  This makes sense because the GPA/LSAT stats are lower, so logically it would follow that the quality of student is lower. 

The first year in law school is extremely rigorous anywhere you go to school.  Given that a school admits a greater number of students with comparatively lower GPA and LSAT scores, one would expect a greater number of students that are not able to hack it.  Thus, they fail out. 

As for non-academic attrition...*&^% happens.
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: lstudent on March 30, 2004, 11:45:47 AM
That is my feeling, but I would feel more comfortable going to a school with a lower attrition rate, even if I don't necessarily fall in the category of "lower quality student" (I don't like that phrase one bit!)...

My stats are: 155 LSAT score, and 3.82 GPA (magna cum laude)...

Still waiting on many schools, though...

Was accepted at a tier two school, Indiana U - Indianapolis...
Would this warrant going half-way across the country just to be in a tier-two?  And isen't the rankings, largely, arbitrary, especially since a commercial enterprise is making these determinations, and although they may argue they want to inform, they're greater concern is making a buck?  oh well...

Thanks for the input though
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: thechoson on March 30, 2004, 01:19:56 PM
Hey law4, where are you at right now, and where do you want to practice?  Cause though IU is a great school, it's not a national school, so you'd  likely be stuck there for a while.
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: thechoson on March 30, 2004, 01:20:34 PM
Hey law4, where are you at right now, and where do you want to practice?  Cause though IU is a great school, it's not a national school, so you'd  likely be stuck there for a while.

My bad, this was for lstudent! sorry!
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: habeas_dorkus on March 30, 2004, 10:16:39 PM
if i'm remembering correctly, somebody who posts on this board went to a mcgeorge law day and posted his/her comments. off the top of my head, i seem to remember the poster being generally impressed with the people and facilities.

just posting this for what it's worth.
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: habeas_dorkus on March 30, 2004, 10:20:08 PM
here's the post i was talking about. from somebody named "martinibar"



I did manage to visit McGeorge a few weeks ago and I felt they did a very good job of showcasing their school. To be honest I only applied because they sent me an application and a fee wavier and I figured I could use another safety school kinda close to home. The fact that they reimbursed me for traveling expenses didn't hurt either. While I didn't see or experience anything that wasn't already in the literature I did get a sense of the atmosphere of the campus. I think that would be reason enough to go to these things. I'm really an advocate of finding a place you'll be happy to spend three years of your life in. The people seemed very nice, friendly and there was a healthy balance of competition and cooperation. I also have friends and family in the greater Sacramento area so that scored some points with me as well. While I have gotten accepted a much higher ranked schools the feel of the school was something I really liked. Plus my fiance really dug the campus and the people. She did more taking to the Dean of Admissions than I did. Its really amazing to see that woman talk for such a long periods of time. Suffice to say I may actually end up there next fall. Such is the impact of an admitted student's open house. You could very well end up liking or even falling in love with a particular city, campus or program, despite the seductiveness of Tier 1s.


Cheers!
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: xorxon on March 31, 2004, 09:05:46 AM
This may not be worth much, but I worked with a McGeorge transferee to Seattle University, who is now a lawyer. She took the first 2 years at McGeorge and then couldn't bear the immaturity of the younger students any longer.  She is a recent graduate (2001 I believe). 
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: BigDaddy on April 18, 2004, 10:28:10 AM
I second what Martinibar said..I was at that LSD, and it was great. Made me choose it over Denver, Santa clara, Colorado.etc.....

If there are any questions, please ask away.
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: habeas_dorkus on April 18, 2004, 10:17:51 PM
BigDaddy:

So you chose McGeorge over Santa Clara? What specifically at Law Day impressed you so much? Have you visited Santa Clara, too?

I live in Florida, and I haven't been able to visit either school. If you don't mind, I'd love to hear your thoughts on what you experienced that day in terms of students, professors, facilities, atmosphere, etc.

I'm leaning heavily toward McGeorge, and I may make a visit soon, but I'd appreciate any information you can pass along!
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: martinibar on April 19, 2004, 12:44:23 AM
habeas_dorkus

I can hopefully share some useful info on Santa Clara. I was accepted to Santa Clara and like BigDaddy I ended up choosing McGeorge. Santa Clara is about a 5 minute walk from my house so I'm very familiar with the school and the Santa Clara/San Jose metro area so I'll be happy to answer any questions you might have.  My email is hh1648@aol.com.
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: seamaid on April 19, 2004, 05:23:30 PM
hello BigDaddy and Martinibar,
I am really interested in what make you guys choose Mcgeorge over Santa Clara U? In my personal experience, the staff in Mcgeorge are really helpful and very nice. But I think SCU does have very good IP program. Any thoughts are appreciated.
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: thechoson on April 19, 2004, 05:25:40 PM
hello BigDaddy and Martinibar,
I am really interested in what make you guys choose Mcgeorge over Santa Clara U? In my personal experience, the staff in Mcgeorge are really helpful and very nice. But I think SCU does have very good IP program. Any thoughts are appreciated.
I am interested too, because I am pending at SCU and have withdrawn from McGeorge.
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: BigDaddy on April 19, 2004, 06:05:44 PM
To all -
   This is my personal experience, so take all this with a grain of salt, as I firmly believe that no deecision is correct for more than that person..That being said....

I went to both schools, and many things at McGeorge caught my attention that were not present at SCU
1) Atmosphere - much more collegial than SCU. SCU seemed like everyone was at each others throats. McG seemed like a very friendly place, somewhere wher I would not mind spending three years of my life. SCU seemed a bit on edge for me.
2) City - I HATE San Jose / Santa Clara. Too many people, too dirty. I like the Sac area, at least the northern suburb where I will live (Roseville), even though McG is in the Ghetto (nice facilities, though)
3) Administration - I was offered a Dean's scholarship at McG, and nothing at SCU. I was also offered good $$ at Denver, so I talked to a person in the admissions office at SCU about trying to get a competitive scholarship. IN ONE EMAIL RESPONSE, he said both that he had taken the subject to the committee, AND that they said no...ALL 20 minutes after our first contact. I don't know if he thinks I'm stupid or what, but that just pissed me off.
I did the same thing talking to Dean Barrett at McGeorge, and he got me 6K more over three years.
4)Ranking Trend (I'm a minor rankings whore) - McG is going up FAST, and I have it from an inside source that they were VERY suprised they didn't get into Tier 2 this year. (If you look at the numbers, I think there were 2-3 schools in T2 that they should have beat.) They are on the rise, with great new faculty and a HELLUVA new dean (ex-CIA and NSA general counsel!!) Look for mid 90's next year.
5) Other factors - My wife rtunities in and daughter have better oppothe Sac area, and I really don't want to send my little one to an inner city school.

Even with all of this in McG's favor, I had a VERY difficult decision. I have a BS and am finishing an MS in microbiology, and am interested in bioteh patent prosecution / litigation. SCU's reputation in patent law ALONE was almost enough to go there over all of the things McG has going for it. I think without the family, I would have attended SCU.

One other thing, and I think that this is VERY personal; McGeorge FELT right. I went to many different schools. Denver had the nicest facilities I have ever seen; Colorado has the rank; SCU has the IP program;McGeorge just was the "right" place for me.

Hope this all helps.
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: seamaid on April 19, 2004, 08:46:48 PM
Hi, BigDaddy
Thank you for your info. It is really a hard decision for you to make. Sometimes I think it is even harder to feel right than choose right. Hopefully we can not only feel right, but also choose right.
btw, how much scholarship you got?
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: thechoson on April 19, 2004, 08:53:20 PM
bravo Bigdaddy!  That must have been a tough decision, but kudos to you.  McGeorge seems to be a class act all around.  I got their Dean's Scholarship, and it was REALLY hard saying no to that one, my hardest withdraw yet. 
Good luck!!!
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: martinibar on April 19, 2004, 09:45:50 PM
You covered a lot of the same bases that made me choose McGeorge, BigDaddy but there was something else about SCU that really turned me off.

SCU is in a very good and expensive part of town so the campus can't really expand. An acre of land around the school has a market price of at least 1 to 1.5 million. Since the school is pressed for space they sometimes hold undergraduate classes in Bannan Hall where the law school is. I literally have 20 friends from high school that went to SCU for their undergrad and they've all at one time or another had a class in the law school building.

Its one thing to have undergrads walking around the quad outside, quite another to have them running around making noise during exams, distracting you from your study groups, etc (I've heard first hand accounts of law exams being disrupted by undergrads who didn't realize where they were at). When I asked the staff at SCU about whether or not Bannan Hall was going to become exclusively law school next year I kind of got the run around. Even though the official position is that it will be law school only, I wouldn't really put much faith in that answer.
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: BigDaddy on April 20, 2004, 07:11:02 AM
Martinibar -
  I agree wholeheartedly!! When I visited, there were UG's coming into the LS student lounge to buy drinks. The LS students there told them to leave, and the UG's told them to F off!! I would have killed those little sons of .......

Sea - I ended up with 12K a year (damned LSAT)



Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: seamaid on April 20, 2004, 12:26:10 PM
I agree with you about SCU. I took my LSAT at SCU. It is really noisy outside during the test. To me, the only temptation of SCU is its IP law certificate, which you can get during your JD study.
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: BigDaddy on April 20, 2004, 12:55:01 PM
Also remember that you can get a certificate at McGeorge. ;D
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: seamaid on April 20, 2004, 01:00:19 PM
 You really did a wonderful research for McGeorge, BigDaddy. That makes Mcgeorge a even better place to go.  :D
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: thechoson on April 20, 2004, 01:06:53 PM
Another minor positive for McGeorge.  Among the large cities of California since the recession of 2000-2001, only one has had positive job growth.  Sacramento.  Couple that with the fact that it is the most diverse city in the nation and has low cost of living compared to other big cities in Cali, Sacramento seems like a very nice place to live.
Good luck guys!
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: seamaid on April 21, 2004, 12:06:54 PM
Does anyone know something about on-campus housing? I received a letter from the housing office of McGeorge, and I was told to pay all the deposits before May 1st to remain in the priority waitlist of an on-campus apartment.
I do not know if it will be a quiet place to live and study in an on-campus apartment. How many days the day division students will have classes in a week? 
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: BigDaddy on April 21, 2004, 01:12:09 PM
Does anyone know something about on-campus housing? I received a letter from the housing office of McGeorge, and I was told to pay all the deposits before May 1st to remain in the priority waitlist of an on-campus apartment.
I do not know if it will be a quiet place to live and study in an on-campus apartment. How many days the day division students will have classes in a week? 

You do need to make that deposit if you plan on getting any on-campus housing. It seemed, when I went, that it would be a nice plase to live, and that it would help you immerse yourself more into the whole LS experience. I would do it if I were single, but am not.
also, day division 1L's have classes every weekday.

BD
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: seamaid on April 21, 2004, 01:29:38 PM
Thank you, BD
I would like to live in campus. I just worried if it would be noisy sometimes. Because some friends of mine told me it is very noisy to live in a dorm. And I just know from the housing office they will increase the rent this fall. So, a studio will cost 560 a month. Maybe we could meet this fall in McGeorge.   Take care.
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: BigDaddy on April 21, 2004, 01:37:34 PM
Thank you, BD
I would like to live in campus. I just worried if it would be noisy sometimes. Because some friends of mine told me it is very noisy to live in a dorm. And I just know from the housing office they will increase the rent this fall. So, a studio will cost 560 a month. Maybe we could meet this fall in McGeorge.   Take care.
Seamaid,
On campus dorms at a LS that is not attached to the UG is VERY different than one like McGeorge, where only LS students will be living in and around those dorms. No doubt there is partying, but it is controlled, and from what I have heard it mostly rotates around 1L class drinking games. ;)
Also, be aware that 560 / month covers not only rent, but also hot water, basic utilities, and high speed internet access. 560 is not alot for this place (for instance, I'll be paying ~1000 / month for a two bedroom in a suburb of Sac....)
BTW - I assume you are female (SeaMAID) and some sort of international student (from some of the ways you use English in messages)..is that true (Just curious)? Either way, it would be great to meet this fall.

BD
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: seamaid on April 21, 2004, 02:07:48 PM
Yes, I am a not too old Chinese lady. I like swimming very much and always feel like a happy fish. You wouldn't have difficulty recognizing me in school.
One thing that we have in common is the LSAT score and maybe free books for the first year.  :D
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: BigDaddy on April 21, 2004, 02:29:48 PM
Cool. I will definetely look you up during orientation.

BD ;)
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: BigDaddy on April 23, 2004, 10:54:34 AM
Wow, this thread really died quick. Anyone else have any questions about McG, or does anyone who is going to be there this fall want to talk about the school??

Anyone?? ???
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: lstudent on April 23, 2004, 10:57:59 AM
I will be writing McGeorge this weekend, and officially give up my seat in this fall's class.

I actually placed a deposit down...

But, I have decided to head to Eugene, OR, rather than Sacramento,CA.
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: frontier on April 23, 2004, 11:07:12 AM
I'm still waiting on McGeorge.  The sooner you let them know the better for all of us still waiting.  Good luck in Eugene!  It's really a beautiful place and and excellent school. 
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: BigDaddy on April 23, 2004, 01:08:24 PM
I'm still waiting on McGeorge.  The sooner you let them know the better for all of us still waiting.  Good luck in Eugene!  It's really a beautiful place and and excellent school. 

good luck, frontier!!
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: frontier on April 23, 2004, 01:37:52 PM
Thanks.  I'm really biting my nails.  If only they would consider graduate gpa...I might not be so borderline.
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: BigDaddy on April 23, 2004, 01:40:26 PM
Thanks.  I'm really biting my nails.  If only they would consider graduate gpa...I might not be so borderline.

I hear you. i have a 3.2 UG, but a 3.7 grad. I think if they would have looked at that I may have been a better candidate at Boalt. 8)
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: frontier on April 23, 2004, 01:49:28 PM
I did what I could in the application to highlight my graduate work.  I also regret taking the LSAT while I was in France...the accomodations were sub par, and there were definitely communication difficulties with the moderator...
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: BigDaddy on April 23, 2004, 02:00:54 PM
I did what I could in the application to highlight my graduate work.  I also regret taking the LSAT while I was in France...the accomodations were sub par, and there were definitely communication difficulties with the moderator...

Yeah, the LSAT killed me too. I shot myself in the foot. I am a molecular biologist and killed my self on the GAMES section byt missing 11!!(where I had not missed a question in the previous four practices!!) If my games would have held true, I should have scored a 177....DAMMIT!! ;)
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: frontier on April 23, 2004, 02:02:43 PM
That's too bad.  A 177 would have opened up many doors.  What prompted you to go from bio to law?
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: frontier on April 23, 2004, 02:21:20 PM
BigDaddy-I just read your little bio on lawschoolnumbers.com...I'm a Chicoan...born and raised.
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: BigDaddy on April 23, 2004, 02:21:21 PM
That's too bad.  A 177 would have opened up many doors.  What prompted you to go from bio to law?

I HATE benchwork. I love science and science theory, but the actual science is fairly bland and, in all honesty, I didn't go to school for a LONG time to get paid 30-40K out of school with a Ph.D. Instead I will have a M.S., graduate with my J.D. in the same amount of time a Ph.D. would have taken, and make 100-135K out of school....plus, I will enjoy my work more than with a Ph.D. ;D
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: goldberg on April 23, 2004, 08:04:27 PM
The assistant admissions dean "adam" is a real ass head.
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: BigDaddy on April 23, 2004, 08:38:57 PM
The assistant admissions dean "adam" is a real ass head.

And why do you say that? Dean Barrett has been as helpful as could be to me. He agreed to meet me on short notice to discuss my thoughts on the school at a time that was VERY inconvenient for him (the morning of a admitted students day), and even helped me get 6K more in grants over 6 semesters. He got me in touch with people in charge of programs I am interested in, and has spent a great deal of time helping me with this process of deciding to attent there rather than a more highly ranked school.

I also believe that MartiniBar has stated good comments on him as well.
In the future, please refrain from calling someone an "ass head" without telling us why. It simply makes you look like an damn twit who is bitter.

HTH - idiot
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: habeas_dorkus on April 23, 2004, 10:28:15 PM
I second that.

I've found Adam Barrett - and everyone else from McGeorge I've dealt with - to be very helpful and friendly... especially considering how busy they all must be at this time of year.
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: Andrew on April 25, 2004, 09:38:36 AM
A portion of this thread was split off into the hate board here:
http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php?topic=1918 (http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php?topic=1918)
Title: Re: McGeorge - Deposit due in two days, need info.
Post by: BigDaddy on April 25, 2004, 04:28:17 PM
A portion of this thread was split off into the hate board here:
http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php?topic=1918 (http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php?topic=1918)

Thanks Andrew, this was a good thread until that guy showed up.