Law School Discussion

Off-Topic Area => General Off-Topic Board => Topic started by: The Thread Starter on April 09, 2008, 08:32:59 PM

Title: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: The Thread Starter on April 09, 2008, 08:32:59 PM
discuss. 
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 09, 2008, 08:34:06 PM
NAY!

(http://radicalrags.net/images/t-shirts/smash_patriarchy_design.gif)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Astro on April 09, 2008, 08:37:04 PM
female dog better.  I own her!
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mbw on April 09, 2008, 08:38:32 PM
Spouse took mine (hyphenated), kids have mine too (unhyphenated, but they have spouse's name as a second middle name.)  I kept mine, unhyphenated.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Astro on April 09, 2008, 08:39:45 PM
Truth be told, I want my kids to choose, depending on what they look like/identify with (this will make sense to those who know me and the SO).
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 09, 2008, 08:40:12 PM
Truth be told, I want my kids to choose, depending on what they look like/identify with (this will make sense to those who know me and the SO).


damn hippie liberals.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Astro on April 09, 2008, 08:43:00 PM
Truth be told, I want my kids to choose, depending on what they look like/identify with (this will make sense to those who know me and the SO).


damn hippie liberals.


::protests torches::
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: The Nicker on April 09, 2008, 08:44:28 PM
I'm a big fan of the wife (or SO, ahem, sorry) keeping her last name. I mean, what's the point anyway?

The kids, however, are taking my last name, even if it kinda sucks . . .

Hyphenated, really? I mean you really want your kids to be the ones in school with the hyphenated name? Not to mention the fact that if you hyphen your kids names you must come to the conclusion that you're just creating a temporary compromise/solution. After all, if everyone hyphened, look at what a mess names in this country would become after just two generations.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 09, 2008, 08:45:18 PM
Truth be told, I want my kids to choose, depending on what they look like/identify with (this will make sense to those who know me and the SO).


damn hippie liberals.


::protests torches::


::torches protesters::
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 09, 2008, 08:48:54 PM
(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/exploits_of_a_mom.png)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mbw on April 09, 2008, 08:49:40 PM
I'm a big fan of the wife (or SO, ahem, sorry) keeping her last name. I mean, what's the point anyway?

The kids, however, are taking my last name, even if it kinda sucks . . .

Hyphenated, really? I mean you really want your kids to be the ones in school with the hyphenated name? Not to mention the fact that if you hyphen your kids names you must come to the conclusion that you're just creating a temporary compromise/solution. After all, if everyone hyphened, look at what a mess names in this country would become after just two generations.

My kids aren't hyphenated, only my spouse.  He was sick of being called Mr. W. anyway, so figured why not.  He thought about just switching completely over, but was over 40 when we married, and is very well known in his field.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Elephant Lee on April 09, 2008, 09:38:17 PM
My wife took mine -- but only because her dad's an ass.  ;)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Elephant Lee on April 09, 2008, 09:44:58 PM
I don't really care. We could each keep our own names, she could hyphenate, we could both hyphenate, hell if I like her name better I might just take it. It's just a name.
I thought you weren't the marrying type.

I know a guy who claims that his sister and her husband eloped and changed their name to Breitmün (Bright Moon). luuullllzzzzz
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Pop Up Video on April 09, 2008, 10:45:39 PM
I'd like to keep mine, I don't care what my (future) spouse does. She can keep hers, take mine, get a new one altogether. I think I'd prefer if she kept hers, though.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: just ducky on April 10, 2008, 03:30:05 AM
I got married last summer and I had a tough time with this decision.  I ended up changing my name.  I want to have the same last name as my future children, and I'd like to be the "xxx family".  But I had a hard time giving up my own name for his.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: just dot on April 10, 2008, 05:38:21 AM
I didn't vote because it is a personal decision, and what do I care what everyone else does?  I think it depends on a lot of factors, including how well known in their fields each of the parties are, personal preferences, etc.  I live in the south and it is still very common for the wife to take her husband's name, but plenty of women keep theirs too.

Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Ender Wiggin on April 10, 2008, 05:49:38 AM
If my wife had wanted to keep hers, I would have been ok with it.  I would have insisted, however, that she write her name like this:

[First Name] [Her last name]-[My last name] (dork)

If you were a Kennedy or a Rockerfeller, and wanted people to remember that your family is the shiznit, I could see hyphenating.  Otherwise, what's the point?
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: gatornation on April 10, 2008, 06:45:10 AM
Regardless of what the hypothetical wife does, my kids are going first name only (Brazilian Style).  I'm thinking Nene and Kaka.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: nike6075 on April 10, 2008, 06:52:47 AM
This is all ridiculous. Dudes - get some balls.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: TNGA60 on April 10, 2008, 06:59:51 AM
I got married last summer and I had a tough time with this decision.  I ended up changing my name.  I want to have the same last name as my future children, and I'd like to be the "xxx family".  But I had a hard time giving up my own name for his.

TITCR

When you are married you become one unit and a new family. And yes that entails losing some of your precious individualism. Both partners having the same last name helps create a sense of unity and would possibly confuse a child. The fact that the husband's surname is kept (in western culture) is simply a matter of tradition and is of little importance to me. Furthermore, if a woman decides to keep "her" surname it is likely to be "her father's" surname and does little to break the cycle of male oppression that the fairer sex has endured since the Agricultural Revolution. The only way to truly rise above the inherent sexism of this tradition would be to create a new surname which expresses your empowerment as a woman.

Lastly, there are situations where I think it would make sense for a woman to not change her last name. My sister, for example, is a single mother. Her daughter has her last name because the father was worthless and out of the picture by the time my niece was born. Currently, my sister is engaged to another man and she has decided not to take his last name because that would a)single out my niece as the only member of the family with a different last name or b)create an identity crisis in my young niece by asking her to change her last name. Obviously, this is a less than ideal situation which I feel warrants a break from tradition. To do so for some feminist or individualist reasons does not make logical sense.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: dashrashi on April 10, 2008, 07:07:12 AM
I got married last summer and I had a tough time with this decision.  I ended up changing my name.  I want to have the same last name as my future children, and I'd like to be the "xxx family".  But I had a hard time giving up my own name for his.

TITCR

When you are married you become one unit and a new family. And yes that entails losing some of your precious individualism. Both partners haveing the same last name helps create a sense of unity and would possibly confuse a child. The fact that the husband's surname is kept (in western culture) is simply a matter of tradition and is of little importance to me. Furthermore, if a woman decides to keep "her" surname it is likely to be "her father's" surname and does little to break the cycle of male oppression that the fairer sex has endured since the Agricultural Revolution. The only way to truly rise above the inherent sexism of this tradition would be to create a new surname which expresses your empowerment as a woman.

Lastly, there are situations where I think it would make sense for a woman to not change her last name. My sister, for example, is a single mother. Her daughter has her last name because the father was worthless and out of the picture by the time my niece was born. Currently, my sister is engaged to another man and she has decided not to take his last name because that would a)single out my niece as the only member of the family with a different last name or b)create an identity crisis in my young niece by asking her to change her last name. Obviously, this is a less than ideal situation which I feel warrants a break from tradition. To do so for some feminist or individualist reasons does not make logical sense.


Hey, thanks for telling me what happens when I get married! I totally had no idea! You really opened my eyes here and told me what's what! I bet your sister's also grateful for your seal of approval, finally, as to her life choices!

 ::)

And ftr: I didn't have a strong opinion about this until recently, but I was thinking about it, and it would be so weird for me to suddenly have a new name. This is the name I came into the world with, and I don't think getting married means that I change sufficiently that I have to change all that too. Also my name is google-able and my name w/ my SO's name wouldn't be. Also it would be alliterative and very hard on the lispers among us. So...no. Probably.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: BearlyLegal on April 10, 2008, 07:10:20 AM
Regardless of what the hypothetical wife does, my kids are going first name only (Brazilian Style).  I'm thinking Nene and Kaka.
I see where you are coming from, and Nene is a fine name... but...

For the love of god, if you love your child and intend to send them to American public school, do not under any circumstances name them "Kaka".
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: TNGA60 on April 10, 2008, 07:28:12 AM
I got married last summer and I had a tough time with this decision.  I ended up changing my name.  I want to have the same last name as my future children, and I'd like to be the "xxx family".  But I had a hard time giving up my own name for his.

TITCR

When you are married you become one unit and a new family. And yes that entails losing some of your precious individualism. Both partners haveing the same last name helps create a sense of unity and would possibly confuse a child. The fact that the husband's surname is kept (in western culture) is simply a matter of tradition and is of little importance to me. Furthermore, if a woman decides to keep "her" surname it is likely to be "her father's" surname and does little to break the cycle of male oppression that the fairer sex has endured since the Agricultural Revolution. The only way to truly rise above the inherent sexism of this tradition would be to create a new surname which expresses your empowerment as a woman.

Lastly, there are situations where I think it would make sense for a woman to not change her last name. My sister, for example, is a single mother. Her daughter has her last name because the father was worthless and out of the picture by the time my niece was born. Currently, my sister is engaged to another man and she has decided not to take his last name because that would a)single out my niece as the only member of the family with a different last name or b)create an identity crisis in my young niece by asking her to change her last name. Obviously, this is a less than ideal situation which I feel warrants a break from tradition. To do so for some feminist or individualist reasons does not make logical sense.


Hey, thanks for telling me what happens when I get married! I totally had no idea! You really opened my eyes here and told me what's what! I bet your sister's also grateful for your seal of approval, finally, as to her life choices!

 ::)

And ftr: I didn't have a strong opinion about this until recently, but I was thinking about it, and it would be so weird for me to suddenly have a new name. This is the name I came into the world with, and I don't think getting married means that I change sufficiently that I have to change all that too. Also my name is google-able and my name w/ my SO's name wouldn't be. Also it would be alliterative and very hard on the lispers among us. So...no. Probably.

 Calm down, stop the yelling. I am not condemning any woman who decides to keep her surname. However, it is my opinion, as a knuckle dragging male, that this new trend accomplishes little in most situations but I do recognize that there are exceptions. And yes my sister respects my opinion as I her's and we constantly seek out each other for advice. Surprisingly, many people do request other's opinions when making difficult decisions but that may sound odd to a lone gun like you.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: TNGA60 on April 10, 2008, 07:30:30 AM
this is fun
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: MahlerGrooves on April 10, 2008, 07:35:19 AM
I'm getting married in the summer, and my SO is taking my last name.  We did have a deal though, that if we got married before she finished her degree she would take it and if we got married after she finished, she wouldn't.

Plus, she really likes my last name.

I mean, if she really didn't want to, it wouldn't be a huge deal, but it was something we decided on, and I think that is how it should be left:  as a decision between each couple.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Ender Wiggin on April 10, 2008, 07:51:18 AM
Regardless of what the hypothetical wife does, my kids are going first name only (Brazilian Style).  I'm thinking Nene and Kaka.
I see where you are coming from, and Nene is a fine name... but...

For the love of god, if you love your child and intend to send them to American public school, do not under any circumstances name them "Kaka".

Or "Pupu."
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Ender Wiggin on April 10, 2008, 07:54:17 AM
I just don't want my kids to have to explain to their friends that their parents are dorks (any more than they will already have to, of course).
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: TNGA60 on April 10, 2008, 07:57:31 AM
I mean, if she really didn't want to, it wouldn't be a huge deal, but it was something we decided on, and I think that is how it should be left:  as a decision between each couple.

This is the most important thing, and what a relationship should be based on. It's not about coercion or expectations that one person will or will not do a certain thing, it's about finding something that works for both of you. Some people call it "picking battles" but it's not about winning or losing, it's just about being happy.

This is probably true. If you are a guy that would have a huge problem with this then I imagine dating a woman who wanted to keep her last name you would probably run into trouble before that becomes an issue. I had a fraternity brother who was dating a real hard nosed feminist. She was a cool girl but they just did not work well together. They broke up over the last name issue but they could have never made it anyway.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Ender Wiggin on April 10, 2008, 08:02:49 AM
I mean, if she really didn't want to, it wouldn't be a huge deal, but it was something we decided on, and I think that is how it should be left:  as a decision between each couple.

This is the most important thing, and what a relationship should be based on. It's not about coercion or expectations that one person will or will not do a certain thing, it's about finding something that works for both of you. Some people call it "picking battles" but it's not about winning or losing, it's just about being happy.

@#!* that.  I want to win life.

Testify!

(http://wneo.org/GASP/November1999/winner1.jpg)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: MahlerGrooves on April 10, 2008, 08:22:42 AM
Hey tm, make your way over to the CLS vs. Penn with Levy thread and weigh in!
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: dashrashi on April 10, 2008, 08:30:47 AM
Calm down, stop the yelling. I am not condemning any woman who decides to keep her surname. However, it is my opinion, as a knuckle dragging male, that this new trend accomplishes little in most situations but I do recognize that there are exceptions. And yes my sister respects my opinion as I her's and we constantly seek out each other for advice. Surprisingly, many people do request other's opinions when making difficult decisions but that may sound odd to a lone gun like you.

Trust me, friend, you'll know when I'm yelling. And from over here in internet land, it's an interesting spin that you put on you judging your sister's life and poor decisions, when you call it her valuing your opinion.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Ender Wiggin on April 10, 2008, 08:35:02 AM
dear god, where did you even find that picture?

That, sir, is what you get when you google "fugly."
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: MahlerGrooves on April 10, 2008, 08:38:23 AM
dear god, where did you even find that picture?

That, sir, is what you get when you google "fugly."

Oh. So it is Amy Winehouse.


AFTER rehab, no less.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: TNGA60 on April 10, 2008, 08:46:36 AM
Calm down, stop the yelling. I am not condemning any woman who decides to keep her surname. However, it is my opinion, as a knuckle dragging male, that this new trend accomplishes little in most situations but I do recognize that there are exceptions. And yes my sister respects my opinion as I her's and we constantly seek out each other for advice. Surprisingly, many people do request other's opinions when making difficult decisions but that may sound odd to a lone gun like you.

Trust me, friend, you'll know when I'm yelling. And from over here in internet land, it's an interesting spin that you put on you judging your sister's life and poor decisions, when you call it her valuing your opinion.

Exclamation
Mark 

An exclamation mark usually shows strong feeling, such as surprise, anger or joy. Using an exclamation mark when writing is rather like shouting or raising your voice when speaking. Exclamation marks are most commonly used in writing quoted speech. You should avoid using exclamation marks in formal writing, unless absolutely necessary.

As to you saying I am judging my sister, I would like to know how you made this leap. I would hope that as a future or current law student you would know that your assumptions should be well scrutinized before decide to state them as fact. However, it is possible that you are just trying to get under my skin and your logical skills are much more advanced than you have shown here.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Ender Wiggin on April 10, 2008, 08:47:10 AM
can you guys delete it?  it's making me sick to my stomach.

Thank God for these.

(http://images.buycostumes.com/mgen/merchandiser/21318.jpg)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Ender Wiggin on April 10, 2008, 08:50:41 AM
Exclamation
Mark 

An exclamation mark usually shows strong feeling, such as surprise, anger or joy. Using an exclamation mark when writing is rather like shouting or raising your voice when speaking. Exclamation marks are most commonly used in writing quoted speech. You should avoid using exclamation marks in formal writing, unless absolutely necessary.

As to you saying I am judging my sister, I would like to know how you made this leap. I would hope that as a future or current law student you would know that your assumptions should be well scrutinized before decide to state them as fact. However, it is possible that you are just trying to get under my skin and your logical skills are much more advanced than you have shown here.

this is gonna be good.
[/quote]

Yeah.  She must never have seen dash come out fightin'. 

(http://www.recruiting.com/files/cornered.jpg)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: jack24 on April 10, 2008, 09:17:49 AM
Why wouldn't a woman want to take her husband's last name?  Unless you are famous and don't want to lose your name recognition I don't really think it matters that much.

The tradition seems to work pretty well though, and hopefully the need for women to be "empowered individuals" doesn't make them lose their maternal instinct.
I think smart people are often too smart to realize that the best way to fight poverty, and crime and inrease education is to have more stable families.

Responsible and loving mothers and fathers will make a bigger difference in a childs life than anything else.

I think it's pretty surprising that women don't want to believe that they are almost always better at raising children than men are, Especially since many women want to be better than men at everything else.



Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 09:26:14 AM
Things I love about this thread:

1. "Fairer sex"
2. If a woman disagrees, she's yelling, and needs to calm down
3. Not following the patriarchal tradition makes someone a "dork"
4. Stotan thinks he can win anything, but especially life
5. Using an exclamation mark is yelling? I THOUGHT TYPING IN ALL CAPS WAS YELLING ON THE INTERNET! Shows what I know. I am a woman, after all. Also, a message board discussion is formal writing? Well hell. Even I don't go that far.
6. A woman taking her husband's name makes for a stable family. Has anything to do with being a parent? Makes someone responsible? Really? Hot damn.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: TNGA60 on April 10, 2008, 09:30:30 AM
An exclamation mark usually shows strong feeling, such as surprise, anger or joy. Using an exclamation mark when writing is rather like shouting or raising your voice when speaking. Exclamation marks are most commonly used in writing quoted speech. You should avoid using exclamation marks in formal writing, unless absolutely necessary.

As to you saying I am judging my sister, I would like to know how you made this leap. I would hope that as a future or current law student you would know that your assumptions should be well scrutinized before decide to state them as fact. However, it is possible that you are just trying to get under my skin and your logical skills are much more advanced than you have shown here.

Did you just refer to posting on an online LAW SCHOOL DISCUSSION board as "formal writing?"

That's hilarious!!!!

Also, I have something I want to say in reference to dash, but I quite frankly she terrifies me.

If writing on a message board is formal writing, the red highlighted section of the post is plagiarism.

http://www.englishclub.com/writing/punctuation-exclamation-mark.htm
No, I did not mean to imply that message board wiriting was formal. That part was not my point. It was the shouting comment.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: jack24 on April 10, 2008, 09:31:56 AM
Things I love about this thread:

1. "Fairer sex"
2. If a woman disagrees, she's yelling, and needs to calm down
3. Not following the patriarchal tradition makes someone a "dork"
4. Stotan thinks he can win anything, but especially life
5. Using an exclamation mark is yelling? I THOUGHT TYPING IN ALL CAPS WAS YELLING ON THE INTERNET! Shows what I know. I am a woman, after all. Also, a message board discussion is formal writing? Well hell. Even I don't go that far.
6. A woman taking her husband's name makes for a stable family. Has anything to do with being a parent? Makes someone responsible? Really? Hot damn.



Cady, I said that the name thing doesn't make much of a difference.  I said that I "HOPE" that individualism doesn't get rid of maternalism.

Maternalism is what makes for stability, responsibility and parenthood.



and IrrX,  I said that the tradition seems to work pretty well... I didn't say that changing the tradition would screw anything up.   It's not really broken so why fix it.  My wife has the same last name as me now and it's now the name of our new family.  Who really cares which name it is.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: TNGA60 on April 10, 2008, 09:32:34 AM
Things I love about this thread:

1. "Fairer sex"
2. If a woman disagrees, she's yelling and is on her period
3. Not following the patriarchal tradition makes someone a "dork"
4. Stotan thinks he can win anything, but especially life
5. Using an exclamation mark is yelling? I THOUGHT TYPING IN ALL CAPS WAS YELLING ON THE INTERNET! Shows what I know. I am a woman, after all. Also, a message board discussion is formal writing? Well hell. Even I don't go that far.
6. A woman taking her husband's name makes for a stable family. Has anything to do with being a parent? Makes someone responsible? Really? Hot damn.

Fixt.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 09:34:44 AM
Things I love about this thread:

1. "Fairer sex"
2. If a woman disagrees, she's yelling, and needs to calm down
3. Not following the patriarchal tradition makes someone a "dork"
4. Stotan thinks he can win anything, but especially life
5. Using an exclamation mark is yelling? I THOUGHT TYPING IN ALL CAPS WAS YELLING ON THE INTERNET! Shows what I know. I am a woman, after all. Also, a message board discussion is formal writing? Well hell. Even I don't go that far.
6. A woman taking her husband's name makes for a stable family. Has anything to do with being a parent? Makes someone responsible? Really? Hot damn.



Cady, I said that the name thing doesn't make much of a difference.  I said that I "HOPE" that individualism doesn't get rid of maternalism.

Maternalism is what makes for stability, responsibility and parenthood.


This...may be the most absurd argument/connection I've ever heard w/r/t why it might be problematic for a woman to not change her name.

Congratulations!

(Also, I hope you don't mean to suggest that it's the only thing that makes for stability, responsibility and parenthood)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 09:38:17 AM
Also, i'm intrigued by the maternalism -> parenthood connection.

Maternalism is feminized, while parenthood is not. If you were going to make that connection, wouldn't maternalism -> motherhood be the way to go?
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: jack24 on April 10, 2008, 09:39:03 AM
I wasn't trying to argue that the way to strengthen the family is by continuing the husband name tradition.
I was trying to make a more relevant point about how important strong families are.  

It seems like a lot of smart women are losing the desire to raise good children.

Educated women, on average have less children than uneducated women.   Why is that?
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: TNGA60 on April 10, 2008, 09:40:16 AM
No, I did not mean to imply that message board wiriting was formal. That part was not my point. It was the shouting comment.

obviously not.  but that's what you ended up doing through plagiarism.

Fixt!

!!!

lol.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: jack24 on April 10, 2008, 09:41:39 AM
i wish dash were still here.

Dash is a raging inferno of man-hating femegiene.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 09:41:58 AM
Because...it's difficult to have a career and have children?
Because...I'd be willing to venture a guess that the more educated women are, the more comfortable they feel (on the whole) with birth control?

And it may not be that they're losing the desire, but rather that they're recognizing that they have other choices.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: dashrashi on April 10, 2008, 09:43:01 AM
Calm down, stop the yelling. I am not condemning any woman who decides to keep her surname. However, it is my opinion, as a knuckle dragging male, that this new trend accomplishes little in most situations but I do recognize that there are exceptions. And yes my sister respects my opinion as I her's and we constantly seek out each other for advice. Surprisingly, many people do request other's opinions when making difficult decisions but that may sound odd to a lone gun like you.

Trust me, friend, you'll know when I'm yelling. And from over here in internet land, it's an interesting spin that you put on you judging your sister's life and poor decisions, when you call it her valuing your opinion.

Exclamation
Mark 

An exclamation mark usually shows strong feeling, such as surprise, anger or joy. Using an exclamation mark when writing is rather like shouting or raising your voice when speaking. Exclamation marks are most commonly used in writing quoted speech. You should avoid using exclamation marks in formal writing, unless absolutely necessary.

As to you saying I am judging my sister, I would like to know how you made this leap. I would hope that as a future or current law student you would know that your assumptions should be well scrutinized before decide to state them as fact. However, it is possible that you are just trying to get under my skin and your logical skills are much more advanced than you have shown here.

Man, bud. I would really suggest you not get into it with me, especially with the cute little grammar lesson, which absolutely shows your ass with regard to your original point about yelling on a message board, for the rather obvious reason that, as Cady noted, common usage is that caps are used for shouting, and exclamation points are used for, well, would you look at that, Lord have mercy, I'll be darned, exclamations, e.g., "Wowzers! You're spectacularly dumb!"

As for your high-and-mighty perch w/r/t your poor sister, I'll not delve too deeply into the dynamics here, but suffice it to say that I would put cold hard cash on the fact that she doesn't "value your opinion" about how much she screwed up nearly as much as you think she does. Friendly hint from me to you--gratis.

You're welcome!

!

!

Wow, I feel so exhilarated from all that yelling exclaiming.

I wasn't trying to argue that the way to strengthen the family is by continuing the husband name tradition.
I was trying to make a more relevant point about how important strong families are. 

It seems like a lot of smart women are losing the desire to raise good children.

Educated women, on average have less children than uneducated women.   Why is that?


Because they know full well what a pain in the ass it is? What about smart men? Are they losing the desire to raise good children?

Do me a favor. Try, please, seriously, just try, not to be so gender normative in your ideas about family. C'mon. Give it a whirl. I'll wait.

Oh, and tm, I would like to know what you wanted to say. You get a qualified free pass, just this once, and if it makes me laugh, even on the inside, you get another.

i wish dash were still here.

Dash is a raging inferno of man-hating femegiene.


I'll forgive that since you didn't know I was posting as you speak. See above. I'll still give you a chance. Try. It'll be fun. Scout's honor.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: jack24 on April 10, 2008, 09:43:26 AM
Also, i'm intrigued by the maternalism -> parenthood connection.

Maternalism is feminized, while parenthood is not. If you were going to make that connection, wouldn't maternalism -> motherhood be the way to go?

Maybe he thinks that women are the only real parents? ???

1750 is calling...


No I think that men haven't really changed that much over the years.  Women will even say that men never change.     If maternalism begins to disappear, parenthood will disappear.
Even though there will still be plenty of procreation.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: dashrashi on April 10, 2008, 09:45:12 AM
Also, i'm intrigued by the maternalism -> parenthood connection.

Maternalism is feminized, while parenthood is not. If you were going to make that connection, wouldn't maternalism -> motherhood be the way to go?

Maybe he thinks that women are the only real parents? ???

1750 is calling...


No I think that men haven't really changed that much over the years. Women will even say that men never change.     If maternalism begins to disappear, parenthood will disappear.
Even though there will still be plenty of procreation.


You do realize that Sex and the City and/or Cosmopolitan magazine don't exactly count as historical anthropologists, right?

For @#!*'s sake.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: TNGA60 on April 10, 2008, 09:45:31 AM
I wasn't trying to argue that the way to strengthen the family is by continuing the husband name tradition.
I was trying to make a more relevant point about how important strong families are.  

It seems like a lot of smart women are losing the desire to raise good children.

Educated women, on average have less children than uneducated women.   Why is that?


There is an old belief but I have already made too many jokes at the expense of women to go there.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 09:45:52 AM
Also, i'm intrigued by the maternalism -> parenthood connection.

Maternalism is feminized, while parenthood is not. If you were going to make that connection, wouldn't maternalism -> motherhood be the way to go?

Maybe he thinks that women are the only real parents? ???

1750 is calling...


No I think that men haven't really changed that much over the years.  Women will even say that men never change.     If maternalism begins to disappear, parenthood will disappear.
Even though there will still be plenty of procreation.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(the exclamation points were to make sure that everyone realizes how emphatically I'm laughing at that post)

(The best part was "women will even say that men never change")
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: jack24 on April 10, 2008, 09:48:43 AM
Gender is important.  
Is there something wrong with a women wanting to stay home with her children?
Women can shape the next generation while men protect and encourage development.

You can go out and do whatever you want with you life, but don't think that what you do is anymore noble than raising a child.

Go ahead and label me as an ignorant sexist.  I love my wife as much as any man ever has.  She's a queen, and her children will cherish her..  Hopefully your career loves you that much.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: dashrashi on April 10, 2008, 09:49:30 AM
Oh, and tm, I would like to know what you wanted to say. You get a qualified free pass, just this once, and if it makes me laugh, even on the inside, you get another.

i wonder what angry sex with dash would be like?  i bet it would be awesome.

to my knowledge, you've never ever laughed, and even if you had i wouldn't expect that you would laugh at that so much as be offended.  so i won't be expecting another qualified free pass and you need not confirm that i won't be getting another one.

I swear to god, I completely laughed. Almost out loud. At school.


_________
FREE PASS
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: dashrashi on April 10, 2008, 09:50:35 AM
Gender is important. 
Is there something wrong with a women wanting to stay home with her children?
Women can shape the next generation while men protect and encourage development.

You can go out and do whatever you want with you life, but don't think that what you do is anymore noble than raising a child.

Go ahead and label me as an ignorant sexist.  I love my wife as much as any man ever has.  She's a queen, and her children will cherish her..  Hopefully your career loves you that much.


OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG

OH MY GOD
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: MahlerGrooves on April 10, 2008, 09:50:51 AM
I can shed some light on the educated women and children thing, as this is something my SO and I are discussing in our own relationship these days. Oh, and a caveat before I start - I am 24 and she is 29.

It's not that she is averse to raising children - in fact, she wants them very much!  It's that she has put herself through a decade of very intensive education and training (BS in Chemistry, MM in music, Pharm.D. in pharmacy and medicinal chemistry) and she does not want that to simply vanish because she is "supposed" to raise a family.

I, for one, think it's awesome that she worked so hard and got where she is.  In fact, I am the one that doesn't want kids in the relationship.  This isn't because I don't want to have a family.  It's because I know that in the beginning of my career, I will not have the time and energy necessary to raise a child properly.  That being said, I do not want her giving up her career and staying home - sacrificing everything she has worked for - just because she will be in a position to do that.

If she ultimately decides that, eventually, she wants to slow down and have a family, fine.  But I refuse to allow her to give up all the professional aspirations she has and has worked so hard to make happen just because she feels it is expected of her to have kids and be a mother.  I love her for her ambition, her drive, and her working really goddamn hard to get places.  She would NOT be the woman I know if she gave that up for tradition.  In fact, I determined where I applied to LS based on being with her while she finished her education.  Such is my respect for her.

That being said, she had no problem deciding to take my name.  Maybe it's because she likes tradition.  Maybe it's because she likes my name.  More likely is the fact that since I am so clearly a supporter of her and her having an individual identity and career, she felt like it was something she could do for me, a small sacrifice that she could make. 

Taking my name is something I told her that I would understand entirely if she decided not to do, but that I was hoping she would.  She did that for me, as I would do other things for her.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 09:51:47 AM
Gender is important. 
Is there something wrong with a women wanting to stay home with her children?
Women can shape the next generation while men protect and encourage development.

You can go out and do whatever you want with you life, but don't think that what you do is anymore noble than raising a child.

Go ahead and label me as an ignorant sexist.  I love my wife as much as any man ever has.  She's a queen, and her children will cherish her..  Hopefully your career loves you that much.


There's nothing wrong with a woman wanting to stay home with her children, if that is her(/the family's equally informed) decision.

There is something wrong with presuming that there is something wrong with women who don't - particularly with suggestion that they're less of a woman, which is pretty much what you're doing, implicitly if not explicitly.

Further, while yes, gender does matter, many of the reasons that it DOES are socially constructed. So...it matters in the ways that we allow it to. It doesn't matter in some absolute, fundamental, inherent way.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mbw on April 10, 2008, 09:52:44 AM
I wasn't trying to argue that the way to strengthen the family is by continuing the husband name tradition.
I was trying to make a more relevant point about how important strong families are. 

It seems like a lot of smart women are losing the desire to raise good children.

Educated women, on average have less children than uneducated women.   Why is that?


Hmm... 1BA + 2MAs +1ABD + (hopefully) 1JD --> 5 kids. 
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: dashrashi on April 10, 2008, 09:54:57 AM
I wasn't trying to argue that the way to strengthen the family is by continuing the husband name tradition.
I was trying to make a more relevant point about how important strong families are. 

It seems like a lot of smart women are losing the desire to raise good children.

Educated women, on average have less children than uneducated women.   Why is that?


Hmm... 1BA + 2MAs +1ABD + (hopefully) 1JD --> 5 kids. 

Lord, lady. No wonder you're old. Do you sleep ever?

(JUST KIDDING I LOVE YOU)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: jack24 on April 10, 2008, 09:55:20 AM
So let me get this straight...

You don't deny that strong families are essential to society.
You don't think theres anything wrong with a woman staying home if it's her choice

So do you think a family is stronger if a woman stays home?  Or do you think that has nothing to do with it?
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 09:56:13 AM
So let me get this straight...

You don't deny that strong families are essential to society.
You don't think theres anything wrong with a woman staying home if it's her choice

So do you think a family is stronger if a woman stays home?  Or do you think that has nothing to do with it?

Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: LHL on April 10, 2008, 09:56:20 AM
Why wouldn't a woman want to take her husband's last name?  Unless you are famous and don't want to lose your name recognition I don't really think it matters that much.

The tradition seems to work pretty well though, and hopefully the need for women to be "empowered individuals" doesn't make them lose their maternal instinct.
I think smart people are often too smart to realize that the best way to fight poverty, and crime and inrease education is to have more stable families.

Responsible and loving mothers and fathers will make a bigger difference in a childs life than anything else.

I think it's pretty surprising that women don't want to believe that they are almost always better at raising children than men are, Especially since many women want to be better than men at everything else.

I don't think it's a matter of empowerment, just equality. Why should one person in a relationship be expected to give up a part of her identity just because she gets married, while the other is not?

My thoughts exactly.  If a woman decides to take her husband's last name, then by all means go for it.  My problem is the automatic assumption that she will do this.
I also do not see how a woman keeping her last name makes her a less capable mother.
As for the notion that the name doesn't matter, I'd like to believe that but it does to a lot of people.  I can't tell you how many men have reacted very strongly when I suggested they take their wife's name since it doesn't really matter.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: TNGA60 on April 10, 2008, 10:00:18 AM
Man, bud. I would really suggest you not get into it with me, especially with the cute little grammar lesson, which absolutely shows your ass with regard to your original point about yelling on a message board, for the rather obvious reason that, as Cady noted, common usage is that caps are used for shouting, and exclamation points are used for, well, would you look at that, Lord have mercy, I'll be darned, exclamations, e.g., "Wowzers! You're spectacularly dumb!"

As for your high-and-mighty perch w/r/t your poor sister, I'll not delve too deeply into the dynamics here, but suffice it to say that I would put cold hard cash on the fact that she doesn't "value your opinion" about how much she screwed up nearly as much as you think she does. Friendly hint from me to you--gratis.

You're welcome!

!

!

Wow, I feel so exhilarated from all that yelling exclaiming.  

Your patronizing is quite humorous. With you tremendous psychoanalytic abilities maybe you should try and figure out why you look down on unwed mothers so much.  
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: pulvillus on April 10, 2008, 10:00:55 AM
omg if i were dating dash i would totally be all "go make me a sandwich" so she would have angry sex with me.

 :D and if that wears off, just suggest that in the honor of tradition, the wife takes his name and pays for the wedding. End of discussion  :D
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: LHL on April 10, 2008, 10:04:05 AM
I wasn't trying to argue that the way to strengthen the family is by continuing the husband name tradition.
I was trying to make a more relevant point about how important strong families are. 

It seems like a lot of smart women are losing the desire to raise good children.

Educated women, on average have less children than uneducated women.   Why is
that?


Hmm... 1BA + 2MAs +1ABD + (hopefully) 1JD --> 5 kids. 

How does having less children equal losing the desire to raise good children? ???
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: jack24 on April 10, 2008, 10:04:22 AM
So let me get this straight...

You don't deny that strong families are essential to society.
You don't think theres anything wrong with a woman staying home if it's her choice

So do you think a family is stronger if a woman stays home?  Or do you think that has nothing to do with it?

I think each situation is different, and each decision should be made based on the best benefit to the children. I'm not going to short-sell a man for potentially being a stronger parent than his wife who could be more successful as a breadwinner, and I'm not going to discount a more "traditional" family if the roles were to fit that way. But each person should have a choice, and not a predetermined role they are to play based on gender and not necessarily on ability.


Maybe some situations are different, but women are better caregivers and they will always be better caregivers.  I don't know if it's the estrogen, or the whole breast-feeding issue.
I don't know why men are genetically designed to be better hunters.

Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 10:05:34 AM
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: TNGA60 on April 10, 2008, 10:06:02 AM
Gender is important. 
Is there something wrong with a women wanting to stay home with her children?
Women can shape the next generation while men protect and encourage development.

You can go out and do whatever you want with you life, but don't think that what you do is anymore noble than raising a child.

Go ahead and label me as an ignorant sexist.  I love my wife as much as any man ever has.  She's a queen, and her children will cherish her..  Hopefully your career loves you that much.


No, there's nothing wrong with a woman choosing to stay home with the children if that's what she chooses to do. But having an expectation of her doing that without respecting her choice is disrespectful at least, if not oppressive.

So, if a man wants his wife to be a stay at home mom and he will only seriously date women with this desire, is he a sexist?
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: jack24 on April 10, 2008, 10:08:38 AM
I wasn't trying to argue that the way to strengthen the family is by continuing the husband name tradition.
I was trying to make a more relevant point about how important strong families are. 

It seems like a lot of smart women are losing the desire to raise good children.

Educated women, on average have less children than uneducated women.   Why is
that?


Hmm... 1BA + 2MAs +1ABD + (hopefully) 1JD --> 5 kids. 

How does having less children equal losing the desire to raise good children? ???

It doesn't.
But work does often get in the way of raising children.
Women should get an education, and they should work if they want to.  

Either way, daycare is still a sucky substitute for a mother.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 10:11:28 AM
You know what's a sucky substitute for a father?

A jackass who doesn't think that he plays a role in shaping his children and who reifies traditional gender roles.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: jack24 on April 10, 2008, 10:12:28 AM
Why in the crap would anyone on here think I want to opress women.
I actually believe that the MAJORITY of mothers think raising their children is the greatest privilige they have.
  
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: TNGA60 on April 10, 2008, 10:15:08 AM
So let me get this straight...

You don't deny that strong families are essential to society.
You don't think theres anything wrong with a woman staying home if it's her choice

So do you think a family is stronger if a woman stays home?  Or do you think that has nothing to do with it?

I think each situation is different, and each decision should be made based on the best benefit to the children. I'm not going to short-sell a man for potentially being a stronger parent than his wife who could be more successful as a breadwinner, and I'm not going to discount a more "traditional" family if the roles were to fit that way. But each person should have a choice, and not a predetermined role they are to play based on gender and not necessarily on ability.


Maybe some situations are different, but women are better caregivers and they will always be better caregivers.  I don't know if it's the estrogen, or the whole breast-feeding issue.
I don't know why men are genetically designed to be better hunters.

Wow. That's just screwed up beyond words.

You're saying that it's actually impossible for me to be a better parent, based totally on genetics, even though I've seen evidence to the contrary?

Yeah, I want to be the better parent. I hate losing to my wife at anything.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: jack24 on April 10, 2008, 10:15:33 AM
You know what's a sucky substitute for a father?

A jackass who doesn't think that he plays a role in shaping his children and who reifies traditional gender roles.


My hell, this is impossible.

Stressing the importance of motherhood does not demean the importance of a father.
I'm sorry if you think I'm saying fathers aren't important.  I didn't mean to imply that.

Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: LHL on April 10, 2008, 10:15:52 AM
I wasn't trying to argue that the way to strengthen the family is by continuing the husband name tradition.
I was trying to make a more relevant point about how important strong families are. 

It seems like a lot of smart women are losing the desire to raise good children.

Educated women, on average have less children than uneducated women.   Why is
that?


Hmm... 1BA + 2MAs +1ABD + (hopefully) 1JD --> 5 kids. 

How does having less children equal losing the desire to raise good children? ???

It doesn't.
But work does often get in the way of raising children.
Women should get an education, and they should work if they want to.  

Daycare is a sucky substitute for a mother.



Agree with both points butI would say that daycare is a sucky substitute for parents.  There are things that women can biologically provide for children that men can't (breastfeeding etc.) but I do not think that women are inherently better caregivers than men are.  Having fathers more involved in being physically present for their children would ease the burden on the a family where the woman (and man) are working parents.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 10:16:07 AM
::works 70 hour weeks::

::pays for vacation, nice house, college::

::is still a sucky father?::

1. You won't be able to afford nice things, because you'll be sucky at everything you do.

2. The everything you do that you'll be sucky at will include being a father, unless you're too sucky at life to conceive a child but not sucky enough at life that your wife cheats on you and gets pregnant by another man.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 10:17:46 AM
You know what's a sucky substitute for a father?

A jackass who doesn't think that he plays a role in shaping his children and who reifies traditional gender roles.


My hell, this is impossible.

Stressing the importance of motherhood does not demean the importance of a father.
I'm sorry if you think I'm saying fathers aren't important.  I didn't mean to imply that.



You demean the importance of fathers when you suggest that it's the woman's job to shape the children and the man's job to protect and provide, or whatever the @#!* gibberish came out of your fingers
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: jack24 on April 10, 2008, 10:18:12 AM

Wow. That's just screwed up beyond words.

You're saying that it's actually impossible for me to be a better parent, based totally on genetics, even though I've seen evidence to the contrary?


Come on.  I said that there were some exceptions. But generally, I don't care if it's genetics, or experience or tradition.  If men and women suddenly switched roles you'd have a huge increase of crap-filled diapers, and toddler concussions.

Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: jack24 on April 10, 2008, 10:21:16 AM
You know what's a sucky substitute for a father?

A jackass who doesn't think that he plays a role in shaping his children and who reifies traditional gender roles.


My hell, this is impossible.

Stressing the importance of motherhood does not demean the importance of a father.
I'm sorry if you think I'm saying fathers aren't important.  I didn't mean to imply that.



You demean the importance of fathers when you suggest that it's the woman's job to shape the children and the man's job to protect and provide, or whatever the @#!* gibberish came out of your fingers

I said fathers protect children and encourage development.   So does that mean I meant women can't protect and encourage development?  Of course not.  And other the other side Fathers will still shape children, but mothers still have the primary role when they are home with them all day.

Roles are not exclusive, it's all a partnership. 
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: TNGA60 on April 10, 2008, 10:22:59 AM
There's a difference between wanting it, expecting it, and demanding it. In the case of wanting it, no it doesn't make him sexist if he's willing to compromise. The latter two, however, I would consider sexist because they demand a more firm mindset.

I guess it is important to highlight the importance on love in this equation. I do not believe that someone can choose who they will love and if the hypothetical man does fall in love with a woman who does not fit his predetermined bill then he would be stupid to employ a litmus test in choosing who to marry. I don't know if he is necessarily sexist but likely stupid and cold hearted .
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 10:24:07 AM
You know what's a sucky substitute for a father?

A jackass who doesn't think that he plays a role in shaping his children and who reifies traditional gender roles.


My hell, this is impossible.

Stressing the importance of motherhood does not demean the importance of a father.
I'm sorry if you think I'm saying fathers aren't important.  I didn't mean to imply that.



You demean the importance of fathers when you suggest that it's the woman's job to shape the children and the man's job to protect and provide, or whatever the @#!* gibberish came out of your fingers

I said fathers protect children and encourage development.   So does that mean I meant women can't protect and encourage development?  Of course not.  And other the other side Fathers will still shape children, but mothers still have the primary role when they are home with them all day.

Roles are not exclusive, it's all a partnership. 

key assumption

also...whatever, yo.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: nike6075 on April 10, 2008, 10:27:27 AM

Wow. That's just screwed up beyond words.

You're saying that it's actually impossible for me to be a better parent, based totally on genetics, even though I've seen evidence to the contrary?

Come on.  I said that there were some exceptions. But generally, I don't care if it's genetics, or experience or tradition.  If men and women suddenly switched roles you'd have a huge increase of crap-filled diapers, and toddler concussions.

Wouldn't it be possible that this is a result of that very tradition you refer to (read: reinforced gender roles) that provides that experience, and not simply that she has XX and I have XY?

Sure, assuming we're not like every other animal on the planet...
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: jack24 on April 10, 2008, 10:28:04 AM

Wow. That's just screwed up beyond words.

You're saying that it's actually impossible for me to be a better parent, based totally on genetics, even though I've seen evidence to the contrary?

Come on.  I said that there were some exceptions. But generally, I don't care if it's genetics, or experience or tradition.  If men and women suddenly switched roles you'd have a huge increase of crap-filled diapers, and toddler concussions.

Wouldn't it be possible that this is a result of that very tradition you refer to (read: reinforced gender roles) that provides that experience, and not simply that she has XX and I have XY?

It's possible... but genetics are still in play.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Trivium on April 10, 2008, 10:29:58 AM


Come on.  I said that there were some exceptions. But generally, I don't care if it's genetics, or experience or tradition.  If men and women suddenly switched roles you'd have a huge increase of crap-filled diapers, and toddler concussions.



If we're going to accept that statement, then I suppose women being crappier drivers, less intelligent, etc. are all true as well.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: nike6075 on April 10, 2008, 10:30:20 AM

Wow. That's just screwed up beyond words.

You're saying that it's actually impossible for me to be a better parent, based totally on genetics, even though I've seen evidence to the contrary?

Come on.  I said that there were some exceptions. But generally, I don't care if it's genetics, or experience or tradition.  If men and women suddenly switched roles you'd have a huge increase of crap-filled diapers, and toddler concussions.

Wouldn't it be possible that this is a result of that very tradition you refer to (read: reinforced gender roles) that provides that experience, and not simply that she has XX and I have XY?

Sure, assuming we're not like every other animal on the planet...

Cool. I've singlehandedly proven that we're not like every other animal on the planet.

Actually, just assumed it.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: dashrashi on April 10, 2008, 10:30:47 AM
Man, bud. I would really suggest you not get into it with me, especially with the cute little grammar lesson, which absolutely shows your ass with regard to your original point about yelling on a message board, for the rather obvious reason that, as Cady noted, common usage is that caps are used for shouting, and exclamation points are used for, well, would you look at that, Lord have mercy, I'll be darned, exclamations, e.g., "Wowzers! You're spectacularly dumb!"

As for your high-and-mighty perch w/r/t your poor sister, I'll not delve too deeply into the dynamics here, but suffice it to say that I would put cold hard cash on the fact that she doesn't "value your opinion" about how much she screwed up nearly as much as you think she does. Friendly hint from me to you--gratis.

You're welcome!

!

!

Wow, I feel so exhilarated from all that yelling exclaiming. 

Your patronizing is quite humorous. With you tremendous psychoanalytic abilities maybe you should try and figure out why you look down on unwed mothers so much. 

Everything I know about your sister's situation, I got from your post, and anything you've read into my "opinion" on the subject, you should know that I was parroting your tone in that post. I'd suggest you try to figure out why you look down on unwed mothers so much.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: jack24 on April 10, 2008, 10:33:21 AM


Come on.  I said that there were some exceptions. But generally, I don't care if it's genetics, or experience or tradition.  If men and women suddenly switched roles you'd have a huge increase of crap-filled diapers, and toddler concussions.



If we're going to accept that statement, then I suppose women being crappier drivers, less intelligent, etc. are all true as well.

Ooooh good one.  Rather than arguing directly with my point you came up with a completely unrelated example.
Do you really think that the majority of men have the instincts, experience, desire, and patience to do as good of a job as women?  
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: nike6075 on April 10, 2008, 10:33:32 AM
I love how, every time this argument starts, it ends up being the progressive/feminist women who end up shouting "MEN ARE JUST AS GOOD AT TAKING CARE OF CHILDREN AS WOMEN ARE." And then guys say "NO WE'RE NOT."  It's very interesting that, on certain issues, women are so concerned about being 'equal to' or 'the same' as men that they would rather refuse than accept a leading role.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 10:33:55 AM

Wow. That's just screwed up beyond words.

You're saying that it's actually impossible for me to be a better parent, based totally on genetics, even though I've seen evidence to the contrary?

Come on.  I said that there were some exceptions. But generally, I don't care if it's genetics, or experience or tradition.  If men and women suddenly switched roles you'd have a huge increase of crap-filled diapers, and toddler concussions.

Wouldn't it be possible that this is a result of that very tradition you refer to (read: reinforced gender roles) that provides that experience, and not simply that she has XX and I have XY?

Sure, assuming we're not like every other animal on the planet...

. . .

::concludes that we're just monkeys, throws poop from diaper of baby without mother::
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 10:35:28 AM
I love how, every time this argument starts, it ends up being the progressive/feminist women who end up shouting "MEN ARE JUST AS GOOD AT TAKING CARE OF CHILDREN AS WOMEN ARE." And then guys say "NO WE'RE NOT."  It's very interesting that, on certain issues, women are so concerned about being 'equal to' or 'the same' as men that they would rather refuse than accept a leading role.

OH! OH OH OH HEY FEMINISTS! LOOK! HERE'S AN AREA WE CAN SAY WE'RE BETTER THAN MEN, EVEN THOUGH IT WOULD UNDERMINE SO MANY THINGS ABOUT WHAT WE'VE BEEN SAYING! WE SHOULD SEIZE IT!

c'mon, dash!
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: TNGA60 on April 10, 2008, 10:35:54 AM
There's a difference between wanting it, expecting it, and demanding it. In the case of wanting it, no it doesn't make him sexist if he's willing to compromise. The latter two, however, I would consider sexist because they demand a more firm mindset.

I guess it is important to highlight the importance on love in this equation. I do not believe that someone can choose who they will love and if the hypothetical man does fall in love with a woman who does not fit his predetermined bill then he would be stupid to employ a litmus test in choosing who to marry. I don't know if he is necessarily sexist but likely stupid and cold hearted .

Agreed. But with such a fundamental difference, I doubt marriage would even be an option no matter how much love there was. That's a basic incompatibility if a woman wants a career and no children, while a man would demand the opposite of his wife. But like I said, wanting (preferring?) it is one thing. Expecting or demanding it is entirely different.

Since now a days most marriages are consensual the man who demands a housewife and the woman who wants to be a Supreme Court Justice are unlikely to marry. So the point we are arguing is probably moot. My apologies.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: LHL on April 10, 2008, 10:37:53 AM
I love how, every time this argument starts, it ends up being the progressive/feminist women who end up shouting "MEN ARE JUST AS GOOD AT TAKING CARE OF CHILDREN AS WOMEN ARE." And then guys say "NO WE'RE NOT."  It's very interesting that, on certain issues, women are so concerned about being 'equal to' or 'the same' as men that they would rather refuse than accept a leading role.

So wanting a man to be involved in their children's lives has now become passing off responsibility to someone else?  Nice!
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Trivium on April 10, 2008, 10:38:14 AM


Come on.  I said that there were some exceptions. But generally, I don't care if it's genetics, or experience or tradition.  If men and women suddenly switched roles you'd have a huge increase of crap-filled diapers, and toddler concussions.



If we're going to accept that statement, then I suppose women being crappier drivers, less intelligent, etc. are all true as well.

Ooooh good one.  Rather than arguing directly with my point you came up with a completely unrelated example.
Do you really think that the majority of men have the instincts, experience, desire, and patience to do as good of a job as women?  


Its not really that unrelated, the same principle is at issue. If you're willing to accept the fact that women are genetically predisposed to being better parents, then you would have to be willing to at least accept the possibility that women are genetically inferior in some ways, examples being intelligence, driving, etc.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: jack24 on April 10, 2008, 10:39:17 AM
I love how, every time this argument starts, it ends up being the progressive/feminist women who end up shouting "MEN ARE JUST AS GOOD AT TAKING CARE OF CHILDREN AS WOMEN ARE." And then guys say "NO WE'RE NOT."  It's very interesting that, on certain issues, women are so concerned about being 'equal to' or 'the same' as men that they would rather refuse than accept a leading role.

OH! OH OH OH HEY FEMINISTS! LOOK! HERE'S AN AREA WE CAN SAY WE'RE BETTER THAN MEN, EVEN THOUGH IT WOULD UNDERMINE SO MANY THINGS ABOUT WHAT WE'VE BEEN SAYING! WE SHOULD SEIZE IT!

c'mon, dash!

Cady, don't you want to be a mommy some day?
If you do want to be a mommy, don't you think you'd be better at raising the kid than a daycare would be?


Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: nike6075 on April 10, 2008, 10:40:31 AM
I love how, every time this argument starts, it ends up being the progressive/feminist women who end up shouting "MEN ARE JUST AS GOOD AT TAKING CARE OF CHILDREN AS WOMEN ARE." And then guys say "NO WE'RE NOT."  It's very interesting that, on certain issues, women are so concerned about being 'equal to' or 'the same' as men that they would rather refuse than accept a leading role.

OH! OH OH OH HEY FEMINISTS! LOOK! HERE'S AN AREA WE CAN SAY WE'RE BETTER THAN MEN, EVEN THOUGH IT WOULD UNDERMINE SO MANY THINGS ABOUT WHAT WE'VE BEEN SAYING! WE SHOULD SEIZE IT!

c'mon, dash!

But why?  Why can't you just accept that men and women are different?  It doesn't mean that women should stay home with the children in every circumstance, or that the men have to be the breadwinners in every family - or even the large majority of them.  But there are differences, and to be blind to that is simply naive.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: jack24 on April 10, 2008, 10:40:58 AM


Come on.  I said that there were some exceptions. But generally, I don't care if it's genetics, or experience or tradition.  If men and women suddenly switched roles you'd have a huge increase of crap-filled diapers, and toddler concussions.



If we're going to accept that statement, then I suppose women being crappier drivers, less intelligent, etc. are all true as well.

Ooooh good one.  Rather than arguing directly with my point you came up with a completely unrelated example.
Do you really think that the majority of men have the instincts, experience, desire, and patience to do as good of a job as women?  


Its not really that unrelated, the same principle is at issue. If you're willing to accept the fact that women are genetically predisposed to being better parents, then you would have to be willing to at least accept the possibility that women are genetically inferior in some ways, examples being intelligence, driving, etc.

Okay, I'll accept that women and men are genetically different.  Men are generally stronger, bigger, and faster.  Am I wrong about that too?

Now please answer my question:
Do you really think that the majority of men have the instincts, experience, desire, and patience to do as good of a job as women in raising small children?  
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 10:41:27 AM
I do not in fact want to be a mommy.

When I hear a baby crying, I get the urge to shake something.

Good maternal instincts there, eh?

Furthermore, not wanting any spawn of mine in daycare (which, imo, doesn't have to be bad) doesn't mean that I would need to stay home and care for it.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Trivium on April 10, 2008, 10:43:00 AM


Come on.  I said that there were some exceptions. But generally, I don't care if it's genetics, or experience or tradition.  If men and women suddenly switched roles you'd have a huge increase of crap-filled diapers, and toddler concussions.



If we're going to accept that statement, then I suppose women being crappier drivers, less intelligent, etc. are all true as well.

Ooooh good one.  Rather than arguing directly with my point you came up with a completely unrelated example.
Do you really think that the majority of men have the instincts, experience, desire, and patience to do as good of a job as women?  


Its not really that unrelated, the same principle is at issue. If you're willing to accept the fact that women are genetically predisposed to being better parents, then you would have to be willing to at least accept the possibility that women are genetically inferior in some ways, examples being intelligence, driving, etc.

Okay, I'll accept that women and men are genetically different.  Men are generally stronger, bigger, and faster.  Am I wrong about that too?

Now please answer my question:
Do you really think that the majority of men have the instincts, experience, desire, and patience to do as good of a job as women in raising small children?  

Some men, yes. Some men, no. Also, some women yes, some women, no. I don't see a difference in parenting skills between men and women. Generally, people are people and the degree of parenting skills they have is generally a result of the type of person they are.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 10:44:03 AM
I love how, every time this argument starts, it ends up being the progressive/feminist women who end up shouting "MEN ARE JUST AS GOOD AT TAKING CARE OF CHILDREN AS WOMEN ARE." And then guys say "NO WE'RE NOT."  It's very interesting that, on certain issues, women are so concerned about being 'equal to' or 'the same' as men that they would rather refuse than accept a leading role.

OH! OH OH OH HEY FEMINISTS! LOOK! HERE'S AN AREA WE CAN SAY WE'RE BETTER THAN MEN, EVEN THOUGH IT WOULD UNDERMINE SO MANY THINGS ABOUT WHAT WE'VE BEEN SAYING! WE SHOULD SEIZE IT!

c'mon, dash!

But why?  Why can't you just accept that men and women are different?  It doesn't mean that women should stay home with the children in every circumstance, or that the men have to be the breadwinners in every family - or even the large majority of them.  But there are differences, and to be blind to that is simply naive.

no one said I'm blind to the differences between men and women

i don't have a penis. i'm well aware.

what i don't agree with is this idea that most of the differences between men and women that we see are genetic inevitabilities, or that, if they aren't genetic inevitabilities but are social constructions, they're good social constructions according to my definition.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: nike6075 on April 10, 2008, 10:44:14 AM


Come on.  I said that there were some exceptions. But generally, I don't care if it's genetics, or experience or tradition.  If men and women suddenly switched roles you'd have a huge increase of crap-filled diapers, and toddler concussions.



If we're going to accept that statement, then I suppose women being crappier drivers, less intelligent, etc. are all true as well.

Ooooh good one.  Rather than arguing directly with my point you came up with a completely unrelated example.
Do you really think that the majority of men have the instincts, experience, desire, and patience to do as good of a job as women?  


Its not really that unrelated, the same principle is at issue. If you're willing to accept the fact that women are genetically predisposed to being better parents, then you would have to be willing to at least accept the possibility that women are genetically inferior in some ways, examples being intelligence, driving, etc.

Possible - why not?  In practice, I'd say it's perhaps the opposite.  Women receive lower insurance rates than men because they're less likely to drive in such a way that would make the insurance companies have to pay out on claims.  Does this mean that actuaries are sexist?
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: jack24 on April 10, 2008, 10:44:36 AM
I do not in fact want to be a mommy.

When I hear a baby crying, I get the urge to shake something.

Good maternal instincts there, eh?

Furthermore, not wanting any spawn of mine in daycare (which, imo, doesn't have to be bad) doesn't mean that I would need to stay home and care for it.

Okay, thanks for the honesty.
You don't want kids.
I respect your opinions but I don't think you know what the hell you're talking about.
If you don't want kids then your arguments are based on what is good for you.  I'm making arguments based on what I believe will be the best for my future children.  
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 10:46:33 AM
I do not in fact want to be a mommy.

When I hear a baby crying, I get the urge to shake something.

Good maternal instincts there, eh?

Furthermore, not wanting any spawn of mine in daycare (which, imo, doesn't have to be bad) doesn't mean that I would need to stay home and care for it.

Okay, thanks for the honesty.
You don't want kids.
I respect your opinions but I don't think you know what the hell you're talking about.
If you don't want kids then your arguments are based on what is good for you.  I'm making arguments based on what I believe will be the best for my future children. 

. . .

right

ok then

hope you don't @#!* them up too much

ETA: if you don't think I have any idea what I'm talking about, then you clearly don't respect my opinion. If you do respect my opinion even though you think I'm a clueless @#!*, then you're an idiot. You may respect my right to have an opinion while still thinking I'm a clueless @#!*, but I doubt you respect the actual opinion.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: nike6075 on April 10, 2008, 10:46:47 AM
I love how, every time this argument starts, it ends up being the progressive/feminist women who end up shouting "MEN ARE JUST AS GOOD AT TAKING CARE OF CHILDREN AS WOMEN ARE." And then guys say "NO WE'RE NOT."  It's very interesting that, on certain issues, women are so concerned about being 'equal to' or 'the same' as men that they would rather refuse than accept a leading role.

So wanting a man to be involved in their children's lives has now become passing off responsibility to someone else?  Nice!

No.  Complete misread.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Trivium on April 10, 2008, 10:47:00 AM


Come on.  I said that there were some exceptions. But generally, I don't care if it's genetics, or experience or tradition.  If men and women suddenly switched roles you'd have a huge increase of crap-filled diapers, and toddler concussions.



If we're going to accept that statement, then I suppose women being crappier drivers, less intelligent, etc. are all true as well.

Ooooh good one.  Rather than arguing directly with my point you came up with a completely unrelated example.
Do you really think that the majority of men have the instincts, experience, desire, and patience to do as good of a job as women?  


Its not really that unrelated, the same principle is at issue. If you're willing to accept the fact that women are genetically predisposed to being better parents, then you would have to be willing to at least accept the possibility that women are genetically inferior in some ways, examples being intelligence, driving, etc.

Possible - why not?  In practice, I'd say it's perhaps the opposite.  Women receive lower insurance rates than men because they're less likely to drive in such a way that would make the insurance companies have to pay out on claims.  Does this mean that actuaries are sexist?

I meant these more as conventional wisdoms about inborn differences between men and women.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: jack24 on April 10, 2008, 10:47:21 AM

Some men, yes. Some men, no. Also, some women yes, some women, no. I don't see a difference in parenting skills between men and women. Generally, people are people and the degree of parenting skills they have is generally a result of the type of person they are.

You, my friend, are Naive.  I appreciate what you are saying, but I'm afraid most children can see a SIGNIFICANT difference in the way they are treated by their mothers and fathers.

The most important point is that having two loving and involved parents is the best situation for a child.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: TNGA60 on April 10, 2008, 10:47:57 AM
Man, bud. I would really suggest you not get into it with me, especially with the cute little grammar lesson, which absolutely shows your ass with regard to your original point about yelling on a message board, for the rather obvious reason that, as Cady noted, common usage is that caps are used for shouting, and exclamation points are used for, well, would you look at that, Lord have mercy, I'll be darned, exclamations, e.g., "Wowzers! You're spectacularly dumb!"

As for your high-and-mighty perch w/r/t your poor sister, I'll not delve too deeply into the dynamics here, but suffice it to say that I would put cold hard cash on the fact that she doesn't "value your opinion" about how much she screwed up nearly as much as you think she does. Friendly hint from me to you--gratis.

You're welcome!

!

!

Wow, I feel so exhilarated from all that yelling exclaiming. 

Your patronizing is quite humorous. With you tremendous psychoanalytic abilities maybe you should try and figure out why you look down on unwed mothers so much. 

Everything I know about your sister's situation, I got from your post, and anything you've read into my "opinion" on the subject, you should know that I was parroting your tone in that post. I'd suggest you try to figure out why you look down on unwed mothers so much.

omg you're right I should not have started with you
::cowers in your superior intellect::

First off, I never said my sister f'd up, you did. I simply stated that her current situation was less than ideal. I made no comment as to how or why she had a child. You filled in the blanks with your wonderful imagination.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mbw on April 10, 2008, 10:48:35 AM
So let me get this straight...

You don't deny that strong families are essential to society.
You don't think theres anything wrong with a woman staying home if it's her choice

So do you think a family is stronger if a woman stays home?  Or do you think that has nothing to do with it?

I think each situation is different, and each decision should be made based on the best benefit to the children. I'm not going to short-sell a man for potentially being a stronger parent than his wife who could be more successful as a breadwinner, and I'm not going to discount a more "traditional" family if the roles were to fit that way. But each person should have a choice, and not a predetermined role they are to play based on gender and not necessarily on ability.


Maybe some situations are different, but women are better caregivers and they will always be better caregivers.  I don't know if it's the estrogen, or the whole breast-feeding issue.
I don't know why men are genetically designed to be better hunters.

Well, I stopped BFing my kids by 3, and never realized that now my caregiving skills have lessened.  It's all about the unmentionables, eh?

But really.  There's nothing inherently female about good parenting.  On many levels, my spouse's caregiving skills surpass my own.  Frankly, I think we've been only able to raise our four kids together, two of whom have profound special needs (autism) because we compliment each other, parenting-wise.  I would never be able to do this alone, and frankly, when we tried the traditional wife at home, husband at work 9-5, I ended up on depression meds rather quickly. 

Geez, I can't believe we're still having this conversation in 2008.  I honestly held out hope that the next generation of women would have it better than I did, but listening to some of the men here, if feels like we've gone backwards, not forwards.  I just hope that it's not representative of the real world.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 10:50:12 AM

Some men, yes. Some men, no. Also, some women yes, some women, no. I don't see a difference in parenting skills between men and women. Generally, people are people and the degree of parenting skills they have is generally a result of the type of person they are.

You, my friend, are Naive.  I appreciate what you are saying, but I'm afraid most children can see a SIGNIFICANT difference in the way they are treated by their mothers and fathers.

The most important point is that having two loving and involved parents is the best situation for a child.


Seeing a difference doesn't mean there are inevitable differences.

It means that men aren't taught to be caregivers, or expected to be caregivers, in the same way women are. And your thinking perpetuates that cycle.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: jack24 on April 10, 2008, 10:50:46 AM
I do not in fact want to be a mommy.

When I hear a baby crying, I get the urge to shake something.

Good maternal instincts there, eh?

Furthermore, not wanting any spawn of mine in daycare (which, imo, doesn't have to be bad) doesn't mean that I would need to stay home and care for it.

Okay, thanks for the honesty.
You don't want kids.
I respect your opinions but I don't think you know what the hell you're talking about.
If you don't want kids then your arguments are based on what is good for you.  I'm making arguments based on what I believe will be the best for my future children. 

. . .

right

ok then

hope you don't @#!* them up too much

ETA: if you don't think I have any idea what I'm talking about, then you clearly don't respect my opinion. If you do respect my opinion even though you think I'm a clueless @#!*, then you're an idiot. You may respect my right to have an opinion while still thinking I'm a clueless @#!*, but I doubt you respect the actual opinion.

I respect your opinions on parenting, the same way I respect a doctors opinion on law school.
Not only do you lack experience, but you lack the desire to gain experience
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 10:51:30 AM
Right. So you don't respect my opinion. Why don't you just say so?

ETA: but really, most of what I've said hasn't been about parenting, but rather about conceptions and misconceptions about gender identity and gender roles.

ETA again: WTF, yo? I cant know things/have thoughts about parenting because I don't want kids? PLEASE. I was parented. I've watched friends be parented, and parent. I have young cousins who are more like nieces and nephews. There are children whose lives I am invested in. I'm generally invested in children everywhere growing up in a supportive and healthy environment. For christ's sake. Just because I don't want to squeeze a baby out of my vagina I'm not capable of thinking critically about these things??
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Trivium on April 10, 2008, 10:51:50 AM

Some men, yes. Some men, no. Also, some women yes, some women, no. I don't see a difference in parenting skills between men and women. Generally, people are people and the degree of parenting skills they have is generally a result of the type of person they are.

You, my friend, are Naive.  I appreciate what you are saying, but I'm afraid most children can see a SIGNIFICANT difference in the way they are treated by their mothers and fathers.

The most important point is that having two loving and involved parents is the best situation for a child.


I agree fully on your last point. I do see a difference in how I was treated by my two parents, however, I see that difference as more of a social construction. They both came from traditional families where these norms are solidly enforced, so I learned manly values like responsibility, hard work, etc. from my dad while I picked up stuff like compassion and generosity from my mother. This is because that's how their parents treated them.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: jack24 on April 10, 2008, 10:53:52 AM
Right. So you don't respect my opinion. Why don't you just say so?

Word game... whatever.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Trivium on April 10, 2008, 10:54:56 AM


ETA: but really, most of what I've said hasn't been about parenting, but rather about conceptions and misconceptions about gender identity and gender roles.

Exactly. Your point here does nto require being a parent. It just requires holding a particular viewpoint about females and males, specifically, that these qualities may be based in social constructions. That view informs your view on parenting.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: MahlerGrooves on April 10, 2008, 10:55:28 AM
This is becoming round 2 of that "white privilege " thread with people misinterpreting Cady and Dash.  Oy.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: jack24 on April 10, 2008, 10:56:04 AM

Isn't it somehow possible that she knows herself, he abilities and her desires better than you ever could, and would know that experimenting with a human life to gain that experience would be detrimental?

Yes it's possible.
Good point.

Isn't it possible that she's looked at parents from the eyes of a person who wants to shake a baby when it cries?
Don't you think here opinions would be biased toward selfishness?
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: nike6075 on April 10, 2008, 10:56:34 AM

Some men, yes. Some men, no. Also, some women yes, some women, no. I don't see a difference in parenting skills between men and women. Generally, people are people and the degree of parenting skills they have is generally a result of the type of person they are.

You, my friend, are Naive.  I appreciate what you are saying, but I'm afraid most children can see a SIGNIFICANT difference in the way they are treated by their mothers and fathers.

The most important point is that having two loving and involved parents is the best situation for a child.


Seeing a difference doesn't mean there are inevitable differences.

It means that men aren't taught to be caregivers, or expected to be caregivers, in the same way women are. And your thinking perpetuates that cycle.

Why can't there be genetic differences?

It's not an end-all, be-all just to say that women are genetically predisposed to parenting on a fundamental level that men aren't.  We're not monkeys, but it's been proven time and time again that evolutionary aspects built into our DNA are subconscious drivers in the decisions we make on a daily basis - from which food to eat, how much money to save, and who we pick as our mate.  Stop making this a 'either men are just as good at parenting or women should stay in the kitchen' situation - it's not.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 10:57:09 AM
Right. So you don't respect my opinion. Why don't you just say so?

Word game... whatever.


Not a word game. One is condescending, the other is honest.

Also please see my latest edit.

Oh whatever, I'll reproduce it here:

ETA again: WTF, yo? I cant know things/have thoughts about parenting because I don't want kids? PLEASE. I was parented. I've watched friends be parented, and parent. I have young cousins who are more like nieces and nephews. There are children whose lives I am invested in. I'm generally invested in children everywhere growing up in a supportive and healthy environment. For christ's sake. Just because I don't want to squeeze a baby out of my vagina I'm not capable of thinking critically about these things??
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: jack24 on April 10, 2008, 10:58:20 AM
This is becoming round 2 of that "white privilege " thread with people misinterpreting Cady and Dash.  Oy.

I don't think I've misinterpreted them.   I do think that a lot of people are jumping to conclusions about me.

I think that gender roles are good for society, and that maintaining them doesn't mean that women will be oppressed.  


Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 11:00:38 AM

Some men, yes. Some men, no. Also, some women yes, some women, no. I don't see a difference in parenting skills between men and women. Generally, people are people and the degree of parenting skills they have is generally a result of the type of person they are.

You, my friend, are Naive.  I appreciate what you are saying, but I'm afraid most children can see a SIGNIFICANT difference in the way they are treated by their mothers and fathers.

The most important point is that having two loving and involved parents is the best situation for a child.


Seeing a difference doesn't mean there are inevitable differences.

It means that men aren't taught to be caregivers, or expected to be caregivers, in the same way women are. And your thinking perpetuates that cycle.

Why can't there be genetic differences?

It's not an end-all, be-all just to say that women are genetically predisposed to parenting on a fundamental level that men aren't.  We're not monkeys, but it's been proven time and time again that evolutionary aspects built into our DNA are subconscious drivers in the decisions we make on a daily basis - from which food to eat, how much money to save, and who we pick as our mate.  Stop making this a 'either men are just as good at parenting or women should stay in the kitchen' situation - it's not.

. . .

I haven't done that.

Thanks for playing, though.

FTR, based on the study I've done of gender through both scientific and sociological lenses, yes, there are some differences. I won't deny that, and I think if you actually read my posts without dismissing me as a hysterical feminist you'd get that. But those differences are intensely magnified by socialization and societal expectation, and do not preclude men from being equally as effective parents as women.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: jack24 on April 10, 2008, 11:01:18 AM
Right. So you don't respect my opinion. Why don't you just say so?

Word game... whatever.


Not a word game. One is condescending, the other is honest.

Also please see my latest edit.

Oh whatever, I'll reproduce it here:

ETA again: WTF, yo? I cant know things/have thoughts about parenting because I don't want kids? PLEASE. I was parented. I've watched friends be parented, and parent. I have young cousins who are more like nieces and nephews. There are children whose lives I am invested in. I'm generally invested in children everywhere growing up in a supportive and healthy environment. For christ's sake. Just because I don't want to squeeze a baby out of my vagina I'm not capable of thinking critically about these things??

You can think critically about these things.  I'm wrong, I'm sorry.

Either way, you seem to not want kids because you don't want to deal with them.
Your point of view may be valid, but it's still seems like it grows out of selfishness.  
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: nike6075 on April 10, 2008, 11:04:03 AM

Some men, yes. Some men, no. Also, some women yes, some women, no. I don't see a difference in parenting skills between men and women. Generally, people are people and the degree of parenting skills they have is generally a result of the type of person they are.

You, my friend, are Naive.  I appreciate what you are saying, but I'm afraid most children can see a SIGNIFICANT difference in the way they are treated by their mothers and fathers.

The most important point is that having two loving and involved parents is the best situation for a child.


Seeing a difference doesn't mean there are inevitable differences.

It means that men aren't taught to be caregivers, or expected to be caregivers, in the same way women are. And your thinking perpetuates that cycle.

Why can't there be genetic differences?

It's not an end-all, be-all just to say that women are genetically predisposed to parenting on a fundamental level that men aren't.  We're not monkeys, but it's been proven time and time again that evolutionary aspects built into our DNA are subconscious drivers in the decisions we make on a daily basis - from which food to eat, how much money to save, and who we pick as our mate.  Stop making this a 'either men are just as good at parenting or women should stay in the kitchen' situation - it's not.

. . .

I haven't done that.

Thanks for playing, though.

FTR, based on the study I've done of gender through both scientific and sociological lenses, yes, there are some differences. I won't deny that, and I think if you actually read my posts without dismissing me as a hysterical feminist you'd get that. But those differences are intensely magnified by socialization and societal expectation, and do not preclude men from being equally as effective parents as women.

That's exactly what i just said.  So thank you for reiterating my point.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mbw on April 10, 2008, 11:04:39 AM


ETA again: WTF, yo? I cant know things/have thoughts about parenting because I don't want kids? PLEASE. I was parented. I've watched friends be parented, and parent. I have young cousins who are more like nieces and nephews. There are children whose lives I am invested in. I'm generally invested in children everywhere growing up in a supportive and healthy environment. For christ's sake. Just because I don't want to squeeze a baby out of my vagina I'm not capable of thinking critically about these things??

You can think critically about these things.  I'm wrong, I'm sorry.

Either way, you seem to not want kids because you don't want to deal with them.
Your point of view may be valid, but it's still seems like it grows out of selfishness

WTF?  Are you for real?  Not wanting kids is selfish? :::bangs head on desk::::
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: MahlerGrooves on April 10, 2008, 11:05:22 AM
I think there are certainly some biochemical predispositions among genders.  For example, a male body's production of testosterone was necessary in the male role of hunter.  This was not the case in the woman as it is OFTEN counterproductive to have the gender responsible for giving birth out hunting violently (I say often because with lions, the females do most of the hunting).

But that doesn't mean we need to say that women are better parents and men should deal with that and women should quit their jobs and take care of the kids.  Men are biologically designed to procreate very often while women are designed to procreate once every 9 months.  Does that mean that men should go out and have affairs because their chemistry makes them want to?  No.

The same thing can be said for parenting.  While biology plays a part somewhat (ie, breastfeeding), it cannot be an excuse for men to hide behind in order to avoid taking on equal parenting roles.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 11:06:39 AM
Right. So you don't respect my opinion. Why don't you just say so?

Word game... whatever.


Not a word game. One is condescending, the other is honest.

Also please see my latest edit.

Oh whatever, I'll reproduce it here:

ETA again: WTF, yo? I cant know things/have thoughts about parenting because I don't want kids? PLEASE. I was parented. I've watched friends be parented, and parent. I have young cousins who are more like nieces and nephews. There are children whose lives I am invested in. I'm generally invested in children everywhere growing up in a supportive and healthy environment. For christ's sake. Just because I don't want to squeeze a baby out of my vagina I'm not capable of thinking critically about these things??

You can think critically about these things.  I'm wrong, I'm sorry.

Either way, you seem to not want kids because you don't want to deal with them.
Your point of view may be valid, but it's still seems like it grows out of selfishness. 

Oh, you got me, I'm selfish because I don't want children, which makes my thoughts less valid.

My personal decisions about children have very little to do with my abilities to discuss this issue, and your insistence on making them an issue is, quite frankly, insulting.

As is your judgment of me as selfish because I'm honest with myself about what is best for me and any potential offspring that I might have.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 11:08:13 AM


ETA again: WTF, yo? I cant know things/have thoughts about parenting because I don't want kids? PLEASE. I was parented. I've watched friends be parented, and parent. I have young cousins who are more like nieces and nephews. There are children whose lives I am invested in. I'm generally invested in children everywhere growing up in a supportive and healthy environment. For christ's sake. Just because I don't want to squeeze a baby out of my vagina I'm not capable of thinking critically about these things??

You can think critically about these things.  I'm wrong, I'm sorry.

Either way, you seem to not want kids because you don't want to deal with them.
Your point of view may be valid, but it's still seems like it grows out of selfishness

WTF?  Are you for real?  Not wanting kids is selfish? :::bangs head on desk::::

You're too sensitive! I'm selfish! Where's dash to create the triumvirate by being a shrill feminazi?
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 11:08:53 AM

Some men, yes. Some men, no. Also, some women yes, some women, no. I don't see a difference in parenting skills between men and women. Generally, people are people and the degree of parenting skills they have is generally a result of the type of person they are.

You, my friend, are Naive.  I appreciate what you are saying, but I'm afraid most children can see a SIGNIFICANT difference in the way they are treated by their mothers and fathers.

The most important point is that having two loving and involved parents is the best situation for a child.


Seeing a difference doesn't mean there are inevitable differences.

It means that men aren't taught to be caregivers, or expected to be caregivers, in the same way women are. And your thinking perpetuates that cycle.

Why can't there be genetic differences?

It's not an end-all, be-all just to say that women are genetically predisposed to parenting on a fundamental level that men aren't.  We're not monkeys, but it's been proven time and time again that evolutionary aspects built into our DNA are subconscious drivers in the decisions we make on a daily basis - from which food to eat, how much money to save, and who we pick as our mate.  Stop making this a 'either men are just as good at parenting or women should stay in the kitchen' situation - it's not.

. . .

I haven't done that.

Thanks for playing, though.

FTR, based on the study I've done of gender through both scientific and sociological lenses, yes, there are some differences. I won't deny that, and I think if you actually read my posts without dismissing me as a hysterical feminist you'd get that. But those differences are intensely magnified by socialization and societal expectation, and do not preclude men from being equally as effective parents as women.

That's exactly what i just said.  So thank you for reiterating my point.

No, it's not exactly what you just said. You're therefore not welcome.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Ender Wiggin on April 10, 2008, 11:10:25 AM
Right. So you don't respect my opinion. Why don't you just say so?

Word game... whatever.


Not a word game. One is condescending, the other is honest.

Also please see my latest edit.

Oh whatever, I'll reproduce it here:

ETA again: WTF, yo? I cant know things/have thoughts about parenting because I don't want kids? PLEASE. I was parented. I've watched friends be parented, and parent. I have young cousins who are more like nieces and nephews. There are children whose lives I am invested in. I'm generally invested in children everywhere growing up in a supportive and healthy environment. For christ's sake. Just because I don't want to squeeze a baby out of my vagina I'm not capable of thinking critically about these things??

You can think critically about these things.  I'm wrong, I'm sorry.

Either way, you seem to not want kids because you don't want to deal with them.
Your point of view may be valid, but it's still seems like it grows out of selfishness

Everything people do "grows out of selfishness."  There's nothing wrong with that.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mbw on April 10, 2008, 11:11:19 AM
I think there are certainly some biochemical predispositions among genders.  For example, a male body's production of testosterone was necessary in the male role of hunter.  This was not the case in the woman as it is OFTEN counterproductive to have the gender responsible for giving birth out hunting violently (I say often because with lions, the females do most of the hunting).

Not to put too fine a point on this, but so much of this line of argument is moot, as 75-85% of diets of most peoples throughout the world throughout history was based on "gathered" or agricultural foods, not traditional large game hunting. 
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Ender Wiggin on April 10, 2008, 11:11:32 AM


ETA again: WTF, yo? I cant know things/have thoughts about parenting because I don't want kids? PLEASE. I was parented. I've watched friends be parented, and parent. I have young cousins who are more like nieces and nephews. There are children whose lives I am invested in. I'm generally invested in children everywhere growing up in a supportive and healthy environment. For christ's sake. Just because I don't want to squeeze a baby out of my vagina I'm not capable of thinking critically about these things??

You can think critically about these things.  I'm wrong, I'm sorry.

Either way, you seem to not want kids because you don't want to deal with them.
Your point of view may be valid, but it's still seems like it grows out of selfishness

WTF?  Are you for real?  Not wanting kids is selfish? :::bangs head on desk::::

All human acts are selfish, but, like I said, there's nothing wrong with that.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: nike6075 on April 10, 2008, 11:12:41 AM

Some men, yes. Some men, no. Also, some women yes, some women, no. I don't see a difference in parenting skills between men and women. Generally, people are people and the degree of parenting skills they have is generally a result of the type of person they are.

You, my friend, are Naive.  I appreciate what you are saying, but I'm afraid most children can see a SIGNIFICANT difference in the way they are treated by their mothers and fathers.

The most important point is that having two loving and involved parents is the best situation for a child.


Seeing a difference doesn't mean there are inevitable differences.

It means that men aren't taught to be caregivers, or expected to be caregivers, in the same way women are. And your thinking perpetuates that cycle.

Why can't there be genetic differences?

It's not an end-all, be-all just to say that women are genetically predisposed to parenting on a fundamental level that men aren't.  We're not monkeys, but it's been proven time and time again that evolutionary aspects built into our DNA are subconscious drivers in the decisions we make on a daily basis - from which food to eat, how much money to save, and who we pick as our mate.  Stop making this a 'either men are just as good at parenting or women should stay in the kitchen' situation - it's not.

. . .

I haven't done that.

Thanks for playing, though.

FTR, based on the study I've done of gender through both scientific and sociological lenses, yes, there are some differences. I won't deny that, and I think if you actually read my posts without dismissing me as a hysterical feminist you'd get that. But those differences are intensely magnified by socialization and societal expectation, and do not preclude men from being equally as effective parents as women.

That's exactly what i just said.  So thank you for reiterating my point.

No, it's not exactly what you just said. You're therefore not welcome.

I said that genetic differences exist, but this fact: a) shouldn't be an end-all, be-all for deciding the roles of parents in specific family situations b) doesn't mean that women are necessarily better parents and c) doesn't mean that men should shirk their responsibilities to provide and care for their children to the very best of their abilities.  What are you still arguing with?
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 11:13:09 AM


ETA again: WTF, yo? I cant know things/have thoughts about parenting because I don't want kids? PLEASE. I was parented. I've watched friends be parented, and parent. I have young cousins who are more like nieces and nephews. There are children whose lives I am invested in. I'm generally invested in children everywhere growing up in a supportive and healthy environment. For christ's sake. Just because I don't want to squeeze a baby out of my vagina I'm not capable of thinking critically about these things??

You can think critically about these things.  I'm wrong, I'm sorry.

Either way, you seem to not want kids because you don't want to deal with them.
Your point of view may be valid, but it's still seems like it grows out of selfishness

WTF?  Are you for real?  Not wanting kids is selfish? :::bangs head on desk::::

All human acts are selfish, but, like I said, there's nothing wrong with that.

Perhaps, though given the connotation the objection is valid.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: MahlerGrooves on April 10, 2008, 11:14:48 AM
I think there are certainly some biochemical predispositions among genders.  For example, a male body's production of testosterone was necessary in the male role of hunter.  This was not the case in the woman as it is OFTEN counterproductive to have the gender responsible for giving birth out hunting violently (I say often because with lions, the females do most of the hunting).

Not to put too fine a point on this, but so much of this line of argument is moot, as 75-85%% of diets of most peoples throughout the world throughout history was based on "gathered" or agricultural foods, not traditional large game hunting. 

Oh, agreed.  I'm just saying that from a purely biochemical evolutionary stance, it may hold water.  I'm not trying to reinforce the idea, but simply give a rationale for why it may have evolved as such. 
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 11:16:41 AM


I said that genetic differences exist, but this fact: a) shouldn't be an end-all, be-all for deciding the roles of parents in specific family situations b) doesn't mean that women are necessarily better parents and c) doesn't mean that men should shirk their responsibilities to provide and care for their children to the very best of their abilities.  What are you still arguing with?

Oi.

I don't really want to go back through your posts.

If that's really what you're saying, then I don't know why you were arguing with me.

I'm pretty sure you were putting a far greater emphasis on genetic differences than I'm comfortable with, though.

In fact, I'm quite positive.

So. Let's go with that.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 11:17:08 AM


ETA again: WTF, yo? I cant know things/have thoughts about parenting because I don't want kids? PLEASE. I was parented. I've watched friends be parented, and parent. I have young cousins who are more like nieces and nephews. There are children whose lives I am invested in. I'm generally invested in children everywhere growing up in a supportive and healthy environment. For christ's sake. Just because I don't want to squeeze a baby out of my vagina I'm not capable of thinking critically about these things??

You can think critically about these things.  I'm wrong, I'm sorry.

Either way, you seem to not want kids because you don't want to deal with them.
Your point of view may be valid, but it's still seems like it grows out of selfishness

WTF?  Are you for real?  Not wanting kids is selfish? :::bangs head on desk::::

You're too sensitive! I'm selfish! Where's dash to create the triumvirate by being a shrill feminazi?

I should know better than to get involved in this fight, but alas, I'm all too happy to play substitute  ;).

A most welcome addition, my dear.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: dashrashi on April 10, 2008, 11:19:08 AM


ETA again: WTF, yo? I cant know things/have thoughts about parenting because I don't want kids? PLEASE. I was parented. I've watched friends be parented, and parent. I have young cousins who are more like nieces and nephews. There are children whose lives I am invested in. I'm generally invested in children everywhere growing up in a supportive and healthy environment. For christ's sake. Just because I don't want to squeeze a baby out of my vagina I'm not capable of thinking critically about these things??

You can think critically about these things.  I'm wrong, I'm sorry.

Either way, you seem to not want kids because you don't want to deal with them.
Your point of view may be valid, but it's still seems like it grows out of selfishness

WTF?  Are you for real?  Not wanting kids is selfish? :::bangs head on desk::::

You're too sensitive! I'm selfish! Where's dash to create the triumvirate by being a shrill feminazi?

I should know better than to get involved in this fight, but alas, I'm all too happy to play substitute  ;).

A most welcome addition, my dear.

AAAHHH I was getting called on in Ks! Don't hate me!

As to the a-hole with the palm tree 'tar and the sister he's ashamed of: You say she made mistakes, I translated this to you thinking she screwed up. Tomato, tomato.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: LHL on April 10, 2008, 11:19:42 AM
Right. So you don't respect my opinion. Why don't you just say so?

Word game... whatever.


Not a word game. One is condescending, the other is honest.

Also please see my latest edit.

Oh whatever, I'll reproduce it here:

ETA again: WTF, yo? I cant know things/have thoughts about parenting because I don't want kids? PLEASE. I was parented. I've watched friends be parented, and parent. I have young cousins who are more like nieces and nephews. There are children whose lives I am invested in. I'm generally invested in children everywhere growing up in a supportive and healthy environment. For christ's sake. Just because I don't want to squeeze a baby out of my vagina I'm not capable of thinking critically about these things??

You can think critically about these things.  I'm wrong, I'm sorry.

Either way, you seem to not want kids because you don't want to deal with them.
Your point of view may be valid, but it's still seems like it grows out of selfishness
.  

In most situations that I know of, having kids is also selfish.  In fact, the only way I can think of that being a parent is not selfish is having a kid even if you really, really don't want one and are only doing it for some external reason.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Ender Wiggin on April 10, 2008, 11:21:04 AM
Things I love about this thread:

1. "Fairer sex"
2. If a woman disagrees, she's yelling, and needs to calm down
3. Not following the patriarchal tradition makes someone a "dork"
4. Stotan thinks he can win anything, but especially life
5. Using an exclamation mark is yelling? I THOUGHT TYPING IN ALL CAPS WAS YELLING ON THE INTERNET! Shows what I know. I am a woman, after all. Also, a message board discussion is formal writing? Well hell. Even I don't go that far.
6. A woman taking her husband's name makes for a stable family. Has anything to do with being a parent? Makes someone responsible? Really? Hot damn.


Not really.  Knowing what a patriarchal tradition is in the first place, and then not following it just to prove a point, makes someone a "dork."

(I hope you've realized that I am joking by now.  If not, I will continue to act like an idiot, and once you know me better, you can retroactively go back and tell me to piss off.)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 11:22:34 AM

AAAHHH I was getting called on in Ks! Don't hate me!

that was mighty selfish of you

Things I love about this thread:

1. "Fairer sex"
2. If a woman disagrees, she's yelling, and needs to calm down
3. Not following the patriarchal tradition makes someone a "dork"
4. Stotan thinks he can win anything, but especially life
5. Using an exclamation mark is yelling? I THOUGHT TYPING IN ALL CAPS WAS YELLING ON THE INTERNET! Shows what I know. I am a woman, after all. Also, a message board discussion is formal writing? Well hell. Even I don't go that far.
6. A woman taking her husband's name makes for a stable family. Has anything to do with being a parent? Makes someone responsible? Really? Hot damn.


Not really.  Knowing what a patriarchal tradition is in the first place, and then not following it just to prove a point, makes someone a "dork."

(I hope you've realized that I am joking by now.  If not, I will continue to act like an idiot, and once you know me better, you can retroactively go back and tell me to piss off.)

PISS OFF!
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Ender Wiggin on April 10, 2008, 11:23:51 AM
Let's come to an understanding so this thread doesn't get derailed.  Human acts are selfish.  Get over it.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: dashrashi on April 10, 2008, 11:24:41 AM

AAAHHH I was getting called on in Ks! Don't hate me!

that was mighty selfish of you

It's because I don't currently parent anyone except my boyfriend.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 11:25:48 AM

AAAHHH I was getting called on in Ks! Don't hate me!

that was mighty selfish of you

It's because I don't currently parent anyone except my boyfriend.

because he's so genetically incapable of caretaking that he can't take care of himself?
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: MahlerGrooves on April 10, 2008, 11:25:57 AM

AAAHHH I was getting called on in Ks! Don't hate me!

that was mighty selfish of you

It's because I don't currently parent anyone except my boyfriend.


LMAO.  My SO feels the same way about me.  Especially when I get sick - I'm all "Abby!  Help me!"
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 11:26:25 AM
Let's come to an understanding so this thread doesn't get derailed.  Human acts are selfish.  Get over it.

Your insistence on coming to an understanding on this is selfish.

Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: just dot on April 10, 2008, 11:26:53 AM
Interesting.  I missed most of this today because I was off parenting my kids.  I'm not saying I'm an authority, but I think I do have an opinion on this.

First of all, I do believe there are some basic genetic differences between men and women that affect how the genders parent in general.  Like everything else, that varies greatly from individual to individual.  I think by giving your own personal examples, you're all showing that not all women are "motherly" and that there are plenty of men who are very nurturing and will make excellent primary parents.  I am a far more involved and nurturing parent than my kids' father, but his brother is a stay-at-home dad and does a fantastic job (far better than their mother could or would do).  In this day and age, why can't everyone work with their own strengths?  If you wouldn't make a good parent, don't have a kid!  Don't expect your partner (male or female) to take up your slack just because you think your DNA needs to be represented out there.  Parenting is the hardest job ever.  If you're not up for it, don't do it.  Period.

Also, another thing I think we're missing is the way our society is currently structured forces many people to choose between parenting or a career.  I have given up 5 years of my youth to raise children, and fallen way behind in my career in the process.  If our country had a little more respect for what working parents could contribute, there might be more flexibility in the workplace.  Family life in the US would improve in general- for men and women.  I do agree that a daycare is a crappy place for a kid, but being stuck at home isn't the rosy, fulfilling picture that Jack is painting it, either.  It is the often the most difficult, isolating, and brainless job you can imagine.  Yes, it is rewarding to raise a child and shape their mind, but most of the day-to-day work comes down to brainless, manual labor (laundry, dishes, changing diapers, etc).  THAT is why highly intelligent women don't want to do it, Jack.  

If there had been more options for me to work while still participating fully in the parenting of my children, I would've jumped all over it.  If I hadn't been a student all of this time, I would be a crazy person right now.  I don't want to look back at 40 when my kids are raised, and realize that I did nothing with my own life.  I don't think martyrs make for good parents, either.  They just begin to resent it.  What is that teaching the children?
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 11:29:19 AM
Interesting.  I missed most of this today because I was off parenting my kids.  I'm not saying I'm an authority, but I think I do have an opinion on this.

First of all, I do believe there are some basic genetic differences between men and women that affect how the genders parent in general.  Like everything else, that varies greatly from individual to individual.  I think by giving your own personal examples, you're all showing that not all women are "motherly" and that there are plenty of men who are very nurturing and will make excellent primary parents.  I am a far more involved and nurturing parent than my kids' father, but his brother is a stay-at-home dad and does a fantastic job (far better than their mother could or would do).  In this day and age, why can't everyone work with their own strengths?  If you wouldn't make a good parent, don't have a kid!  Don't expect your partner (male or female) to take up your slack just because you think your DNA needs to be represented out there.  Parenting is the hardest job ever.  If you're not up for it, don't do it.  Period.

Also, another thing I think we're missing is the way our society is currently structured forces many people to choose between parenting or a career.  I have given up 5 years of my youth to raise children, and fallen way behind in my career in the process.  If our country had a little more respect for what working parents could contribute, there might be more flexibility in the workplace.  Family life in the US would improve in general- for men and women.  I do agree that a daycare is a crappy place for a kid, but being stuck at home isn't the rosy, fulfilling picture that Jack is painting it, either.  It is the often the most difficult, isolating, and brainless job you can imagine.  Yes, it is rewarding to raise a child and shape their mind, but most of the day-to-day work comes down to brainless, manual labor (laundry, dishes, changing diapers, etc).  THAT is why highly intelligent women don't want to do it, Jack. 

If there had been more options for me to work while still participating fully in the parenting of my children, I would've jumped all over it.  If I hadn't been a student all of this time, I would be a crazy person right now.  I don't want to look back at 40 when my kids are raised, and realize that I did nothing with my own life.  I don't think martyrs make for good parents, either.  They just begin to resent it.  What is that teaching the children?

This is, on the whole, an excellent post.

(Though I briefly made the point in the first part of the second paragraph a long time ago - but dot makes it much clearer. I'm just selfish and had to point it out ;))
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: dashrashi on April 10, 2008, 11:29:38 AM

AAAHHH I was getting called on in Ks! Don't hate me!

that was mighty selfish of you

It's because I don't currently parent anyone except my boyfriend.

because he's so genetically incapable of caretaking that he can't take care of himself?

Don't tell him I told you!
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Prestjesus on April 10, 2008, 11:31:06 AM
What about my spiritual wives, do they take my last name? I mean most are pretty young, so I don’t know if I want my name attached to them for, you know, raids on our compound purposes, polygamy charges and such things. Besides giving them my name just personalizes them rather than making them the chattel they are in gods eyes.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: LHL on April 10, 2008, 11:33:08 AM
What about my spiritual wives, do they take my last name? I mean most are pretty young, so I don’t know if I want my name attached to them for, you know, raids on our compound purposes, polygamy charges and such things. Besides giving them my name just personalizes them rather than making them the chattel they are in gods eyes.

I knew it was only a matter of time before you showed up.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 11:33:22 AM

AAAHHH I was getting called on in Ks! Don't hate me!

that was mighty selfish of you

It's because I don't currently parent anyone except my boyfriend.

because he's so genetically incapable of caretaking that he can't take care of himself?

Don't tell him I told you!

I wouldn't dream of it - it's not as if he would respect my opinion anyway, since I'm not a caretaker myself. Except of the carefully nurtured mess in my apartment.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: just dot on April 10, 2008, 11:33:41 AM

This is, on the whole, an excellent post.

(Though I briefly made the point in the first part of the second paragraph a long time ago - but dot makes it much clearer. I'm just selfish and had to point it out ;))

You made a ton of awesome points.  I tried to steal as many of them as possible, while being careful to re-word them just enough so as not to be accused of plagiarism.   ;D
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 11:35:17 AM

This is, on the whole, an excellent post.

(Though I briefly made the point in the first part of the second paragraph a long time ago - but dot makes it much clearer. I'm just selfish and had to point it out ;))

You made a ton of awesome points.  I tried to steal as many of them as possible, while being careful to re-word them just enough so as not to be accused of plagiarism.   ;D

I think we learned earlier that it's only plagiarism if you use an exclamation point?

Wait...that's not right.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Ender Wiggin on April 10, 2008, 11:36:03 AM
Let's come to an understanding so this thread doesn't get derailed.  Human acts are selfish.  Get over it.

Your insistence on coming to an understanding on this is selfish.



Get over it.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Astro on April 10, 2008, 11:36:48 AM

Wow. That's just screwed up beyond words.

You're saying that it's actually impossible for me to be a better parent, based totally on genetics, even though I've seen evidence to the contrary?

Come on.  I said that there were some exceptions. But generally, I don't care if it's genetics, or experience or tradition.  If men and women suddenly switched roles you'd have a huge increase of crap-filled diapers, and toddler concussions.

Wouldn't it be possible that this is a result of that very tradition you refer to (read: reinforced gender roles) that provides that experience, and not simply that she has XX and I have XY?

Sure, assuming we're not like every other animal on the planet...


1.  Wrong argument.  There are many exceptions to this "rule".
2.  We're not like every other animal on the planet.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mbw on April 10, 2008, 11:38:47 AM

AAAHHH I was getting called on in Ks! Don't hate me!

that was mighty selfish of you

It's because I don't currently parent anyone except my boyfriend.

because he's so genetically incapable of caretaking that he can't take care of himself?

Don't tell him I told you!

I wouldn't dream of it - it's not as if he would respect my opinion anyway, since I'm not a caretaker myself. Except of the carefully nurtured mess in my apartment.

Oh, so that's why I feel like I've got forty rugrats, not just four.  And I thought I was just an incompetent parent.

<---not much of a housekeeper.  Must have misplaced that feminine gene somewhere along the way.  Maybe with single socks.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: TNGA60 on April 10, 2008, 11:39:10 AM
As to the a-hole with the palm tree 'tar and the sister he's ashamed of: You say she made mistakes, I translated this to you thinking she screwed up. Tomato, tomato.

I never said she made mistakes. You should try reading my posts more slowly. It is not in there. Not once.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Prestjesus on April 10, 2008, 11:40:17 AM
What about my spiritual wives, do they take my last name? I mean most are pretty young, so I don’t know if I want my name attached to them for, you know, raids on our compound purposes, polygamy charges and such things. Besides giving them my name just personalizes them rather than making them the chattel they are in gods eyes.

I knew it was only a matter of time before you showed up.

I was busy taming my uppity women folk, when I noticed the crufix in the sky calling me twords this thread. I'm here now, so no fear.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Astro on April 10, 2008, 11:40:31 AM
I do not in fact want to be a mommy.

When I hear a baby crying, I get the urge to shake something.

Good maternal instincts there, eh?

Furthermore, not wanting any spawn of mine in daycare (which, imo, doesn't have to be bad) doesn't mean that I would need to stay home and care for it.

Okay, thanks for the honesty.
You don't want kids.
I respect your opinions but I don't think you know what the hell you're talking about.
If you don't want kids then your arguments are based on what is good for you.  I'm making arguments based on what I believe will be the best for my future children. 


I'm trying not to get involved, but seriously.

This is not your argument.  Your argument is about what's good and proper in society.  Don't make me quote you.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Astro on April 10, 2008, 11:41:17 AM

Some men, yes. Some men, no. Also, some women yes, some women, no. I don't see a difference in parenting skills between men and women. Generally, people are people and the degree of parenting skills they have is generally a result of the type of person they are.

You, my friend, are Naive.  I appreciate what you are saying, but I'm afraid most children can see a SIGNIFICANT difference in the way they are treated by their mothers and fathers.

The most important point is that having two loving and involved parents is the best situation for a child.



If this is true, how do you know whether it's cause or effect?
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mbw on April 10, 2008, 11:44:10 AM

I'll throw out the caveat that I wonder if the forced career v. family dichotomy is entirely a result of a lack of respect for parenting as "women's work" (although there is obviously a lack of respect for it on those grounds).  It seems plausible to me that part of the reason that policies that would remedy this aren't put in place is in order to perpetuate the idea that women belong in the home -- by making it impossible for women to balance work in family, those who would have women maintain an inferior social role are able to point to evidence saying that we're all doomed if women work, because they won't be able to raise children properly.

That patriarchy *&^% is insidious, ain't it.

We should add that there's a class component to all this as well, 'cause you know, poor women have almost always worked out of the home, mothers or not.  It's only now that rich and middle class men see the mothers of their children going out to work that it's now "the end of civilization as well know it", or something like that.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: BearlyLegal on April 10, 2008, 11:45:17 AM
LOL, another one of these fun discussions! Wee!

A few points:

1) In re: last names - My mom and dad didn't share last names. I don't think it affected me in any way. Oh noes! You are named after your mom rather than your dad? Who cares, really? If the name isn't Kaka, DeShawn, Igor or Cletus, there won't be any real social impact on the child.

2) IrrX is 100% on point. Relationship standards need to be set by the people inside the relationship. the outside world can bite me. If you have 2 traditional people who grew up in happy irish-catholic homes who want to continue their "paternalistic" traditions, we have no business stopping them. OTOH if you are a a member of a progressive/feminist relationship, hyphenate away. It's all good. Naming conventions are what the individuals inside the relationship make of them. Our external opinions shouldn't matter at all. It's more important to have a happy, functioning couple raising children than one who happens to follow some silly normative social code (whether that code be paternalistic or feminist) in re: naming conventions.

3) There is another macro/micro argument going on here that some of you guys are missing, IMO. Look, males as a macro social group commit more crime, are more likely to drop out of school, are more likely to to make impulsive decisions, etc. These things are factual, and there are significant amounts of empirical data that support them.

Why the statistics are what they are, I don't know. Could be genetics, or could be how we raise boys. But we find ourselves in a situation, where on a macro level, males as a group seem to be less socially responsible than females.

Now, that doesn't mean that some individual men may not be WAY better equipped to be a primary parent than their female partners - just that taken in aggregate, Women > Men at parenting.

This doesn't mean that men shouldn't take an active role in parenting, and it certainly doesn't mean that in some relationships, men shouldn't take on the primary parental responsibilities - again, this should be determined at a micro, relationship-by-relationship level, and normative assumptions shouldn't apply when something as important as the upbringing of a child is concerned.

4) I think I am gonna stop getting mad at Dash. She's hella abrasive when she posts,  but I think that's just how she relates to people (at least on a message board) that she doesn't agree with. I used to be offended that my respectful posts would be answered with eyerolling, sarcasm, namecalling, etc., but really I don't think she's all that bad once you get past  all that. She's just a very opinionated liberal who sticks to her guns and doesn't take poo.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 11:47:10 AM

I'll throw out the caveat that I wonder if the forced career v. family dichotomy is entirely a result of a lack of respect for parenting as "women's work" (although there is obviously a lack of respect for it on those grounds).  It seems plausible to me that part of the reason that policies that would remedy this aren't put in place is in order to perpetuate the idea that women belong in the home -- by making it impossible for women to balance work in family, those who would have women maintain an inferior social role are able to point to evidence saying that we're all doomed if women work, because they won't be able to raise children properly.

That patriarchy *&^% is insidious, ain't it.

We should add that there's a class component to all this as well, 'cause you know, poor women have almost always worked out of the home, mothers or not.  It's only now that rich and middle class men see the mothers of their children going out to work that it's now "the end of civilization as well know it", or something like that.

True. To all of it.

Also, there are really important class components to our ideas of fathering.

Really interesting: Robert Griswold, "Patriarchy and the Politics of Fatherhood, 1970-1993," in Fatherhood in America, pp. 243-69

(sorry for the unbluebooked citation)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: just dot on April 10, 2008, 11:47:48 AM

This is, on the whole, an excellent post.

(Though I briefly made the point in the first part of the second paragraph a long time ago - but dot makes it much clearer. I'm just selfish and had to point it out ;))

You made a ton of awesome points.  I tried to steal as many of them as possible, while being careful to re-word them just enough so as not to be accused of plagiarism.   ;D

I think we learned earlier that it's only plagiarism if you use an exclamation point?

Wait...that's not right.

GOT IT.  I WILL AVOID USING EXCLAMATION POINTS.  I CERTAINLY DON'T WANT TO BE RUDE.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Astro on April 10, 2008, 11:49:03 AM

Also, another thing I think we're missing is the way our society is currently structured forces many people to choose between parenting or a career.  I have given up 5 years of my youth to raise children, and fallen way behind in my career in the process. 

Good point.  What do you think is the cause of this?

(Note: I have a good idea what I think it is.)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Astro on April 10, 2008, 11:50:23 AM
Interesting.  I missed most of this today because I was off parenting my kids.  I'm not saying I'm an authority, but I think I do have an opinion on this.

First of all, I do believe there are some basic genetic differences between men and women that affect how the genders parent in general.  Like everything else, that varies greatly from individual to individual.  I think by giving your own personal examples, you're all showing that not all women are "motherly" and that there are plenty of men who are very nurturing and will make excellent primary parents.  I am a far more involved and nurturing parent than my kids' father, but his brother is a stay-at-home dad and does a fantastic job (far better than their mother could or would do).  In this day and age, why can't everyone work with their own strengths?  If you wouldn't make a good parent, don't have a kid!  Don't expect your partner (male or female) to take up your slack just because you think your DNA needs to be represented out there.  Parenting is the hardest job ever.  If you're not up for it, don't do it.  Period.

Also, another thing I think we're missing is the way our society is currently structured forces many people to choose between parenting or a career.  I have given up 5 years of my youth to raise children, and fallen way behind in my career in the process.  If our country had a little more respect for what working parents could contribute, there might be more flexibility in the workplace.  Family life in the US would improve in general- for men and women.  I do agree that a daycare is a crappy place for a kid, but being stuck at home isn't the rosy, fulfilling picture that Jack is painting it, either.  It is the often the most difficult, isolating, and brainless job you can imagine.  Yes, it is rewarding to raise a child and shape their mind, but most of the day-to-day work comes down to brainless, manual labor (laundry, dishes, changing diapers, etc).  THAT is why highly intelligent women don't want to do it, Jack. 

If there had been more options for me to work while still participating fully in the parenting of my children, I would've jumped all over it.  If I hadn't been a student all of this time, I would be a crazy person right now.  I don't want to look back at 40 when my kids are raised, and realize that I did nothing with my own life.  I don't think martyrs make for good parents, either.  They just begin to resent it.  What is that teaching the children?

This is, on the whole, an excellent post.

(Though I briefly made the point in the first part of the second paragraph a long time ago - but dot makes it much clearer. I'm just selfish and had to point it out ;))

I'll throw out the caveat that I wonder if the forced career v. family dichotomy is entirely a result of a lack of respect for parenting as "women's work" (although there is obviously a lack of respect for it on those grounds).  It seems plausible to me that part of the reason that policies that would remedy this aren't put in place is in order to perpetuate the idea that women belong in the home -- by making it impossible for women to balance work in family, those who would have women maintain an inferior social role are able to point to evidence saying that we're all doomed if women work, because they won't be able to raise children properly.

That patriarchy *&^% is insidious, ain't it.


Oops.  Beaten to the punch.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: LHL on April 10, 2008, 11:53:10 AM
Interesting.  I missed most of this today because I was off parenting my kids.  I'm not saying I'm an authority, but I think I do have an opinion on this.

First of all, I do believe there are some basic genetic differences between men and women that affect how the genders parent in general.  Like everything else, that varies greatly from individual to individual.  I think by giving your own personal examples, you're all showing that not all women are "motherly" and that there are plenty of men who are very nurturing and will make excellent primary parents.  I am a far more involved and nurturing parent than my kids' father, but his brother is a stay-at-home dad and does a fantastic job (far better than their mother could or would do).  In this day and age, why can't everyone work with their own strengths?  If you wouldn't make a good parent, don't have a kid!  Don't expect your partner (male or female) to take up your slack just because you think your DNA needs to be represented out there.  Parenting is the hardest job ever.  If you're not up for it, don't do it.  Period.

Also, another thing I think we're missing is the way our society is currently structured forces many people to choose between parenting or a career.  I have given up 5 years of my youth to raise children, and fallen way behind in my career in the process.  If our country had a little more respect for what working parents could contribute, there might be more flexibility in the workplace.  Family life in the US would improve in general- for men and women.  I do agree that a daycare is a crappy place for a kid, but being stuck at home isn't the rosy, fulfilling picture that Jack is painting it, either.  It is the often the most difficult, isolating, and brainless job you can imagine.  Yes, it is rewarding to raise a child and shape their mind, but most of the day-to-day work comes down to brainless, manual labor (laundry, dishes, changing diapers, etc).  THAT is why highly intelligent women don't want to do it, Jack.  

If there had been more options for me to work while still participating fully in the parenting of my children, I would've jumped all over it.  If I hadn't been a student all of this time, I would be a crazy person right now.  I don't want to look back at 40 when my kids are raised, and realize that I did nothing with my own life.  I don't think martyrs make for good parents, either.  They just begin to resent it.  What is that teaching the children?

Great post.  I had to read a book titled The Price of Motherhood by Ann Crittenden for one of my classes and this pretty much mirrors what was discussed there.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Ender Wiggin on April 10, 2008, 11:53:20 AM
God, I wish it was the Dark Ages, so we could burn you all at the stake as witches. 

<-----grumbles about growing up in the wrong era.

(http://z.about.com/d/atheism/1/7/7/0/3/WitchBurnStakeBritain-e.jpg)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Prestjesus on April 10, 2008, 11:55:39 AM

Also, another thing I think we're missing is the way our society is currently structured forces many people to choose between parenting or a career.  I have given up 5 years of my youth to raise children, and fallen way behind in my career in the process. 

Good point.  What do you think is the cause of this?

(Note: I have a good idea what I think it is.)


Obviously, the root of this is women turning away from their faith towards a life of unrelenting self-indulgence at the cost of their place in heaven by shirking their duty to their men. The Lord, in his ultimate wisdom, placed uppity women and fake dinosaur “fossils” on the earth to test our patience and our faith.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: BearlyLegal on April 10, 2008, 11:56:58 AM

3) There is another macro/micro argument going on here that some of you guys are missing, IMO. Look, males as a macro social group commit more crime, are more likely to drop out of school, are more likely to to make impulsive decisions, etc. These things are factual, and there are significant amounts of empirical data that support them.

Why the statistics are what they are, I don't know. Could be genetics, or could be how we raise boys. But we find ourselves in a situation, where on a macro level, males as a group seem to be less socially responsible than females.  Now, that doesn't mean that some individual men may be WAY better equipped to be a primary parent than their female partners - just that taken in aggregate, Women > Men at parenting.

This doesn't mean that men shouldn't take an active role in parenting, and it certainly doesn't mean that in some relationships, men shouldn't take on the primary parental responsibilities - again, this should be determined at a micro, relationship-by-relationship level, and normative assumptions shouldn't apply.


I think the idea here, though, is that regardless of where any perceived differences are coming from, they're being used as justification to restrict women to certain social roles.  So either this needs to stop being an acceptable justification for prescribing social roles, OR these differences need to be remedied.  IMO it would be best for both genders if both occurred.

Agreed, with the added caveat that this BS process restricts men to current social roles as well. Pretty much noone benefits from the current normative construction. Maybe these rules were legitimately instated back when we used to hunt wildebeast to survive or whatever, but the times, they are a-changin'.   
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 11:58:13 AM
Further suggested reading: Sarah Hrdy, Mother Nature: Maternal Instincts and How They Shape the Human Species  (http://www.amazon.com/Mother-Nature-Maternal-Instincts-Species/dp/0345408934/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207853650&sr=8-1)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: BearlyLegal on April 10, 2008, 11:59:06 AM

Also, another thing I think we're missing is the way our society is currently structured forces many people to choose between parenting or a career.  I have given up 5 years of my youth to raise children, and fallen way behind in my career in the process. 

Good point.  What do you think is the cause of this?

(Note: I have a good idea what I think it is.)


Obviously, the root of this is women turning away from their faith towards a life of unrelenting self-indulgence at the cost of their place in heaven by shirking their duty to their men. The Lord, in his ultimate wisdom, placed uppity women and fake dinosaur “fossils” on the earth to test our patience and our faith.
You are credited flame, and your name is an inspiration to us all.  TYTYTY!

You are not quite on Xman's level, but I salute you anyway!  :)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Prestjesus on April 10, 2008, 12:01:00 PM
God, I wish it was the Dark Ages, so we could burn you all at the stake as witches. 

<-----grumbles about growing up in the wrong era.

(http://z.about.com/d/atheism/1/7/7/0/3/WitchBurnStakeBritain-e.jpg)

Stoning is far more interactive than burning at the stake, stoning allows you to get the children involed in picking the right sized rock, perfecting thier swing, and quoting bible verses as they throw. Hence why its so popular now with those heathen religions.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: just dot on April 10, 2008, 12:02:54 PM

Also, another thing I think we're missing is the way our society is currently structured forces many people to choose between parenting or a career.  I have given up 5 years of my youth to raise children, and fallen way behind in my career in the process. 

Good point.  What do you think is the cause of this?

(Note: I have a good idea what I think it is.)


I'm so glad you asked.  Quite honestly, I think we're in a transitional period in the history of feminism.  We are moving towards a more balanced civilization where roles are defined by the people in them, and not strictly by gender.   Within another generation or two, people won't be forced to make these decisions because parenting (in general) will be valued to a higher degree.  Our society will understand that there is a benefit to all of us when children are raised by their parents (male or female).  We will all make certain concessions in order to facilitate that while still allowing the parents to be productive.

I think technology really helps bring these changes about.  There are more options than ever (flex time, working from home, teleconferencing, etc), and those options will keep changing and getting better.  While there will probably always be certain jobs that require a traditional 9-5 presence, I hope we will find a way to balance work and life a little more effectively in this country.  We can be productive, fulfilled people while raising healthy and well-balanced children.  I think this will include longer family leave times, more work from home options, flex time, and even expanded on-site childcare.  

Women aren't going to continue to be forced into the "family or career" choice.  We want it all, and we will have it, or at least secure it for our children.   At the same time, I think it is important to eliminate the stigma for parents who would prefer to stay home with the children.  Currently, both mothers and fathers who choose to stay home with children are looked at as less valuable than their working counterparts.  That needs to change.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mbw on April 10, 2008, 12:03:37 PM
God, I wish it was the Dark Ages, so we could burn you all at the stake as witches. 

<-----grumbles about growing up in the wrong era.

(http://z.about.com/d/atheism/1/7/7/0/3/WitchBurnStakeBritain-e.jpg)

Yeah, in your hemisphere.  In mine, women were developing agriculture, and hence, matriarchy blossomed during that time.

(http://www.lostworlds.org/a_EtowahGood.jpg)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: BearlyLegal on April 10, 2008, 12:06:32 PM
God, I wish it was the Dark Ages, so we could burn you all at the stake as witches. 

<-----grumbles about growing up in the wrong era.

(http://z.about.com/d/atheism/1/7/7/0/3/WitchBurnStakeBritain-e.jpg)

Yeah, in your hemisphere.  In mine, women were developing agriculture, and hence, matriarchy blossomed during that time.

(http://www.lostworlds.org/a_EtowahGood.jpg)
Just wondering, why is Matriarchy a more credited "Archy" than Patriarchy?

I'd love to live in a world without "archies". That'd be sweet, no? Being able to define your own social roles?
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Prestjesus on April 10, 2008, 12:09:19 PM

Also, another thing I think we're missing is the way our society is currently structured forces many people to choose between parenting or a career.  I have given up 5 years of my youth to raise children, and fallen way behind in my career in the process. 

Good point.  What do you think is the cause of this?

(Note: I have a good idea what I think it is.)


Obviously, the root of this is women turning away from their faith towards a life of unrelenting self-indulgence at the cost of their place in heaven by shirking their duty to their men. The Lord, in his ultimate wisdom, placed uppity women and fake dinosaur “fossils” on the earth to test our patience and our faith.
You are credited flame, and your name is an inspiration to us all.  TYTYTY!

You are not quite on Xman's level, but I salute you anyway!  :)

I’m just doing my part to counter act the liberal bias that is so plainly prevalent in law related online message boards and remind posters there is a definite truth out there. Xman did not have divine inspiration.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: dashrashi on April 10, 2008, 12:10:45 PM
As to the a-hole with the palm tree 'tar and the sister he's ashamed of: You say she made mistakes, I translated this to you thinking she screwed up. Tomato, tomato.

I never said she made mistakes. You should try reading my posts more slowly. It is not in there. Not once.

My bad, you said her situation was less than ideal. Like I said, I'm sure she really appreciates your pronouncements on the idealness (or not) of her situation.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: BearlyLegal on April 10, 2008, 12:13:13 PM

3) There is another macro/micro argument going on here that some of you guys are missing, IMO. Look, males as a macro social group commit more crime, are more likely to drop out of school, are more likely to to make impulsive decisions, etc. These things are factual, and there are significant amounts of empirical data that support them.

Why the statistics are what they are, I don't know. Could be genetics, or could be how we raise boys. But we find ourselves in a situation, where on a macro level, males as a group seem to be less socially responsible than females.  Now, that doesn't mean that some individual men may be WAY better equipped to be a primary parent than their female partners - just that taken in aggregate, Women > Men at parenting.

This doesn't mean that men shouldn't take an active role in parenting, and it certainly doesn't mean that in some relationships, men shouldn't take on the primary parental responsibilities - again, this should be determined at a micro, relationship-by-relationship level, and normative assumptions shouldn't apply.


I think the idea here, though, is that regardless of where any perceived differences are coming from, they're being used as justification to restrict women to certain social roles.  So either this needs to stop being an acceptable justification for prescribing social roles, OR these differences need to be remedied.  IMO it would be best for both genders if both occurred.

Agreed, with the added caveat that this BS process restricts men to current social roles as well. Pretty much noone benefits from the current normative construction. Maybe these rules were legitimately instated back when we used to hunt wildebeast to survive or whatever, but the times, they are a-changin'.   


Ah, you and I have been here before.

I think it's true that because of economic (more than social) changes, men are benefiting less tangibly (not that they're not benefiting at all, because they still are) from prescribed gender norms than they used to.  But psychologically, emotionally, etc. . . . I don't know, I think the argument cuts both ways. 

I think maybe you misread me a little bit. Prescribed social roles go a long way to contributing to things such as the boy's dropout phenomenon (because when we raise them, "boys will be boys", right?); the fact that women live on average 8 years longer than men (hey, don't go to the doctor - "real men" don't whine!); the assumption that men cannot fill primary parental roles; etc. Sure, women are more visibly impacted by social roles, but there is a significant negative impact on men's lives too.

Social roles are crap, and way past their due date. This, IMO, isn't a "feminist" position. This is more of a "humanist" one.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: GTQ on April 10, 2008, 12:13:53 PM
Oh, and tm, I would like to know what you wanted to say. You get a qualified free pass, just this once, and if it makes me laugh, even on the inside, you get another.

i wonder what angry sex with dash would be like?  i bet it would be awesome.

to my knowledge, you've never ever laughed, and even if you had i wouldn't expect that you would laugh at that so much as be offended.  so i won't be expecting another qualified free pass and you need not confirm that i won't be getting another one.

I swear to god, I completely laughed. Almost out loud. At school.


_________
FREE PASS

GTQ
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 12:14:00 PM


And on the same note, sort of . . .  I would like to think that this is the case, but I'm not so optimistic.  I think that the economic future is going to cause a lot of anxiety and unrest, and I'm afraid that this is going to feed into the current feminist backlash.

But then again, I'm a pessimist to the core.

Likewise.

I'm not terribly optimistic.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 12:15:35 PM
Dear Rambis,

I think I like you.

Is there a reason I shouldn't?

Love,

Cady
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: BearlyLegal on April 10, 2008, 12:15:47 PM
I'm not optimistic about change either. Hoping for change assumes that we are smart and learn from our mistakes. I think it's pretty clear that we, as a species, are pretty flipping dumb.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mbw on April 10, 2008, 12:17:19 PM

Also, another thing I think we're missing is the way our society is currently structured forces many people to choose between parenting or a career.  I have given up 5 years of my youth to raise children, and fallen way behind in my career in the process. 

Good point.  What do you think is the cause of this?

(Note: I have a good idea what I think it is.)


I'm so glad you asked.  Quite honestly, I think we're in a transitional period in the history of feminism.  We are moving towards a more balanced civilization where roles are defined by the people in them, and not strictly by gender.   Within another generation or two, people won't be forced to make these decisions because parenting (in general) will be valued to a higher degree.  Our society will understand that there is a benefit to all of us when children are raised by their parents (male or female).  We will all make certain concessions in order to facilitate that while still allowing the parents to be productive.

I think technology really helps bring these changes about.  There are more options than ever (flex time, working from home, teleconferencing, etc), and those options will keep changing and getting better.  While there will probably always be certain jobs that require a traditional 9-5 presence, I hope we will find a way to balance work and life a little more effectively in this country.  We can be productive, fulfilled people while raising healthy and well-balanced children.  I think this will include longer family leave times, more work from home options, flex time, and even expanded on-site childcare.

This is definitely how we were able to develop a more balanced approach to parenting, as we now both work out of the house (er, RV) now.  Of course, I won't be able to do that in law school, so we'll have to renegotiate our roles, schedules, etc.  But just having those options is invaluable, and decreases the pressure of one parent to be the "breadwinner", while the other is thus forced into the default role of the parental caregiver.

Quote
Women aren't going to continue to be forced into the "family or career" choice.  We want it all, and we will have it, or at least secure it for our children.   At the same time, I think it is important to eliminate the stigma for parents who would prefer to stay home with the children.  Currently, both mothers and fathers who choose to stay home with children are looked at as less valuable than their working counterparts.  That needs to change.

You know, this is so true.  I think I've accomplished quite a bit since first becoming a parent 22 years ago, but I'm still stressing over the addendum I have to write explaining why I took time off for parenting.  It really sucks to think that law schools might not think I'm a committed student because I decided to prioritize the care and education of my sons after their autism diagnoses.  However, it is slightly comforting to know my spouse will have to write a similar addendum when he applies to law school a couple of years down the line.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: jack24 on April 10, 2008, 12:18:08 PM
Some people on this thread are saying that it's restrictive to ask mothers to choose between careers or children.  Many women who have children are forced to work due to financial problems.  I don't have statistics to back it up, but it seems to me that a lot of mothers who have to work wish they could stay home with their children.

Women can choose to do whatever they want, but there is nothing wrong with a woman that thinks raising children is more noble and important than advancing her career.

You can suggest that I'm trying to use social forces to compel women to be "barefoot and pregnant in the Kitchen"
I'm not trying to compel anyone to do anything.  My wife chooses to stay home, and if she wanted to go back to work, I'd still love her just as much.
I'm arguing that progressives are trying to use social forces to compel women to "Get out and Work!"
Many in society are using arguments about equality to suggest that women who stay at home are somehow submitting to the will of their husbands.





Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: BearlyLegal on April 10, 2008, 12:18:55 PM
I’m just doing my part to counter act the liberal bias that is so plainly prevalent in law related online message boards and remind posters there is a definite truth out there. Xman did not have divine inspiration.
This is where you and I part ways...
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: TNGA60 on April 10, 2008, 12:21:45 PM
As to the a-hole with the palm tree 'tar and the sister he's ashamed of: You say she made mistakes, I translated this to you thinking she screwed up. Tomato, tomato.

I never said she made mistakes. You should try reading my posts more slowly. It is not in there. Not once.

My bad, you said her situation was less than ideal. Like I said, I'm sure she really appreciates your pronouncements on the idealness (or not) of her situation.

See previous posts.

This is useless. I feel stupid for even getting sucked in to argueing with you. You seem unable to keep up.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: just dot on April 10, 2008, 12:22:22 PM

And on the same note, sort of . . .  I would like to think that this is the case, but I'm not so optimistic.  I think that the economic future is going to cause a lot of anxiety and unrest, and I'm afraid that this is going to feed into the current feminist backlash.

But then again, I'm a pessimist to the core.

I think you're right...in the short run.  I think things will get a lot worse before they get better.  It will take a few generations, but things will come around.  Big changes take time and are usually met with some resistance by people who are more comfortable with the status quo.  It will happen in time because women have come too far to be shoved back into the kitchen, barefoot and pregnant. ( At least, unless it is their choice to be.   :D )
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Astro on April 10, 2008, 12:23:00 PM
Some people on this thread are saying that it's restrictive to ask mothers to choose between careers or children.  Many women who have children are forced to work due to financial problems.  I don't have statistics to back it up, but it seems to me that a lot of mothers who have to work wish they could stay home with their children.

Women can choose to do whatever they want, but there is nothing wrong with a woman that thinks raising children is more noble and important than advancing her career.

You can suggest that I'm trying to use social forces to compel women to be "barefoot and pregnant in the Kitchen"
I'm not trying to compel anyone to do anything.  My wife chooses to stay home, and if she wanted to go back to work, I'd still love her just as much.
I'm arguing that progressives are trying to use social forces to compel women to "Get out and Work!"
Many in society are using arguments about equality to suggest that women who stay at home are somehow submitting to the will of their husbands.








Are you making a strawman out of your own argument now?  This is not what you've been pursuing all through this thread.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 12:24:23 PM


Are you making a strawman out of your own argument now?  This is not what you've been pursuing all through this thread.


hahahahhahahahhaha
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: TNGA60 on April 10, 2008, 12:25:28 PM
(http://z.about.com/d/womenshistory/1/0/c/5/rosie1.jpg)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mbw on April 10, 2008, 12:26:08 PM
Some people on this thread are saying that it's restrictive to ask mothers to choose between careers or children.  Many women who have children are forced to work due to financial problems.  I don't have statistics to back it up, but it seems to me that a lot of mothers who have to work wish they could stay home with their children.

Women can choose to do whatever they want, but there is nothing wrong with a woman that thinks raising children is more noble and important than advancing her career.

You can suggest that I'm trying to use social forces to compel women to be "barefoot and pregnant in the Kitchen"
I'm not trying to compel anyone to do anything.  My wife chooses to stay home, and if she wanted to go back to work, I'd still love her just as much.
I'm arguing that progressives are trying to use social forces to compel women to "Get out and Work!"
Many in society are using arguments about equality to suggest that women who stay at home are somehow submitting to the will of their husbands.

It's being opposed to Essentialism.  Really, now, why do women get, by default, to stay home if they want?  Because they have unmentionables and estrogen?  Seriously, I'm trying to understand why you think women get to be the ones, by default, to stay home to parent children.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: jack24 on April 10, 2008, 12:27:10 PM
Some people on this thread are saying that it's restrictive to ask mothers to choose between careers or children.  Many women who have children are forced to work due to financial problems.  I don't have statistics to back it up, but it seems to me that a lot of mothers who have to work wish they could stay home with their children.

Women can choose to do whatever they want, but there is nothing wrong with a woman that thinks raising children is more noble and important than advancing her career.

You can suggest that I'm trying to use social forces to compel women to be "barefoot and pregnant in the Kitchen"
I'm not trying to compel anyone to do anything.  My wife chooses to stay home, and if she wanted to go back to work, I'd still love her just as much.
I'm arguing that progressives are trying to use social forces to compel women to "Get out and Work!"
Many in society are using arguments about equality to suggest that women who stay at home are somehow submitting to the will of their husbands.








Are you making a strawman out of your own argument now?  This is not what you've been pursuing all through this thread.


Sometimes I do adjust my opinions based on new perspectives I get. 
But I'm still sticking to my guns on some things.

1: Women don't  "Belong" only in the home, but I believe that the traditional roles work very well
2: Giving birth to, and responsibly raising children is the most noble thing a woman can do.
3: There are natural differences between men and women that make women better at nurturing.  These absolutes are prevalent in studies of evolution or religion
4: Good mothers and fathers are our best line of defense against many of societies major problems.

Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 12:28:37 PM
Dear Rambis,

I think I like you.

Is there a reason I shouldn't?

Love,

Cady

Dear Cady,

I'm a bit of a womanizer who likes short-term solutions until the long-term one comes along. Is that going to be a problem?

Love,

Kurt

Dear Kurt,

I'm glad we're on a first name basis now. I enjoy short-term solutions. I think we'll be fine.

Love,

Cady
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 12:29:57 PM
Jesus told me women are better nurturers? Is that was just happened here?
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: dashrashi on April 10, 2008, 12:30:36 PM
As to the a-hole with the palm tree 'tar and the sister he's ashamed of: You say she made mistakes, I translated this to you thinking she screwed up. Tomato, tomato.

I never said she made mistakes. You should try reading my posts more slowly. It is not in there. Not once.

My bad, you said her situation was less than ideal. Like I said, I'm sure she really appreciates your pronouncements on the idealness (or not) of her situation.

See previous posts.

This is useless. I feel stupid for even getting sucked in to argueing with you. You seem unable to keep up.

You see previous posts. This time I used your words precisely, and I submitted that perhaps your opinions on your sister's life aren't being as well-received as you think they are, because frankly, they're rather judgmental. Just something to consider. If I were her, I'd imagine I'd resent your having such certainty about the quality of my situation.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mugatu on April 10, 2008, 12:31:28 PM
Sometimes I do adjust my opinions based on new perspectives I get. 
But I'm still sticking to my guns on some things.

1: Women don't  "Belong" only in the home, but I believe that the traditional roles work very well
2: Giving birth to, and responsibly raising children is the most noble thing a woman can do.
3: There are natural differences between men and women that make women better at nurturing.  These absolutes are prevalent in studies of evolution or religion
4: Good mothers and fathers are our best line of defense against many of societies major problems.



lol
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 12:32:13 PM
4: Good mothers and fathers are our best line of defense against many of society's major problems.

But how do you feel about puppies and unicorns?

(http://mail2.someecards.com/filestorage/ap_37.jpg)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: jack24 on April 10, 2008, 12:32:50 PM
Cady!
Which of my four statements to you disagree with?  Why do you disagree with me?  If My statements aren't true, what are the true alternatives.
Please don't label me as a religious zealot or a sexist just to get around the argument.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: dashrashi on April 10, 2008, 12:33:15 PM
Sometimes I do adjust my opinions based on new perspectives I get. 
But I'm still sticking to my guns on some things.

1: Women don't  "Belong" only in the home, but I believe that the traditional roles work very well
2: Giving birth to, and responsibly raising children is the most noble thing a woman can do.
3: There are natural differences between men and women that make women better at nurturing.  These absolutes are prevalent in studies of evolution or religion
4: Good mothers and fathers are our best line of defense against many of societies major problems.



What's the most noble thing a man can do?

What if a woman saves the entire world, but as a result, cannot give birth to and responsibly raise a child? Is she less noble now?
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mugatu on April 10, 2008, 12:34:38 PM

What if a woman saves the entire world, but as a result, cannot give birth to and responsibly raise a child? Is she less noble now?

yes

she actually failed at life.  kill self.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 12:36:08 PM
Cady!
Which of my four statements to you disagree with?  Why do you disagree with me?  If My statements aren't true, what are the true alternatives.
Please don't label me as a religious zealot or a sexist just to get around the argument.


Your capitalization is funny. This has struck me throughout this conversation. See your capitalization of "My" in the quoted post. See also capitalization of father but not mother, supra.

I disagree with 1, 3, and sort of 2.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mugatu on April 10, 2008, 12:37:42 PM
What if a woman saves the entire world, but as a result, cannot give birth to and responsibly raise a child? Is she less noble now?

yes

she actually failed at life.  kill self.

assuming you believe that the purpose of life is to ensure the survival of one's genetic composition.

i assume this and that's why i don't help anyone who doesn't share my genes unless it eventually benefits me or my genes.

yup.

this standard is not outside of possibility.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: jack24 on April 10, 2008, 12:37:57 PM
Sometimes I do adjust my opinions based on new perspectives I get. 
But I'm still sticking to my guns on some things.

1: Women don't  "Belong" only in the home, but I believe that the traditional roles work very well
2: Giving birth to, and responsibly raising children is the most noble thing a woman can do.
3: There are natural differences between men and women that make women better at nurturing.  These absolutes are prevalent in studies of evolution or religion
4: Good mothers and fathers are our best line of defense against many of societies major problems.



What's the most noble thing a man can do?

What if a woman saves the entire world, but as a result, cannot give birth to and responsibly raise a child? Is she less noble now?

We're talking about choices here.  If a woman is unable to give birth she does have any choice. 
Men who set good examples for their children are also noble.  I think that family is the most important thing in this world.    What's wrong with that?  Just because my father worked and my mother stayed home due to tradition, doesn't mean they did something wrong.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: just dot on April 10, 2008, 12:38:54 PM
Some people on this thread are saying that it's restrictive to ask mothers to choose between careers or children.  Many women who have children are forced to work due to financial problems.  I don't have statistics to back it up, but it seems to me that a lot of mothers who have to work wish they could stay home with their children.

Women can choose to do whatever they want, but there is nothing wrong with a woman that thinks raising children is more noble and important than advancing her career.

You can suggest that I'm trying to use social forces to compel women to be "barefoot and pregnant in the Kitchen"
I'm not trying to compel anyone to do anything.  My wife chooses to stay home, and if she wanted to go back to work, I'd still love her just as much.
I'm arguing that progressives are trying to use social forces to compel women to "Get out and Work!"
Many in society are using arguments about equality to suggest that women who stay at home are somehow submitting to the will of their husbands.


Ok, I AM a stay at home mother, and even I don't like how you're phrasing things.  First of all, if your wife wants to stay home and is happy with it, more power to her!  Nobody on here has suggested that your wife needs to get out and work.  YOU, however, have suggested that other women need to stay home.  You are the one who is suggesting what a woman's role is or should be.  The point that I (and a few others, I think) are trying to make is that the role of each individual person should be defined by them according to their own personal strengths and/or weaknesses.  If your wife would make a great SAHM and she wants to do that, great!  Don't judge another woman as less *whatever* than your wife because they might choose a different path.

What I'm saying is that you are too hung up on traditional "gender roles."  Women don't always necessarily make the best stay-at-home parents.  Sometimes the father is a better parent, sometimes (usually always) they do a better job as a team.  If you're putting all of the responsibility of parenting off on your wife while you consider your job your only parenting responsibility, your children will suffer for this.  They deserve better, and your idea of the "traditional family" role just sounds like your wife doing all of the work like some sort of employee of yours.  What would you think if your "Queen" suddenly decides that being stuck at home all day, every day no longer fulfills her?  Are you going to understand that she's a human being with complex needs and desires?  Or are you just going to write her off as a crappy mother because she doesn't derive 100% of her self-fulfillment from raising your spawn?
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: TNGA60 on April 10, 2008, 12:40:39 PM
(http://msnbcmedia1.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/051012/051012_britneykevin_vmed_3p.widec.jpg)


Who is the better parent?
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: dashrashi on April 10, 2008, 12:41:14 PM
Sometimes I do adjust my opinions based on new perspectives I get. 
But I'm still sticking to my guns on some things.

1: Women don't  "Belong" only in the home, but I believe that the traditional roles work very well
2: Giving birth to, and responsibly raising children is the most noble thing a woman can do.
3: There are natural differences between men and women that make women better at nurturing.  These absolutes are prevalent in studies of evolution or religion
4: Good mothers and fathers are our best line of defense against many of societies major problems.



What's the most noble thing a man can do?

What if a woman saves the entire world, but as a result, cannot give birth to and responsibly raise a child? Is she less noble now?

We're talking about choices here.  If a woman is unable to give birth she does have any choice. 
Men who set good examples for their children are also noble.  I think that family is the most important thing in this world.    What's wrong with that?  Just because my father worked and my mother stayed home due to tradition, doesn't mean they did something wrong.


You didn't answer my first question.

And I'll modify the second one: she saved the world, literally, saved the entire population of the world from destruction, and doesn't feel like she has time to have children too. Less noble than the most-noble mother?

If your dad worked and mom stayed home because of tradition, but they would have been happier and more effective workers and parents with a different structure, then I would say they did do something wrong--by their own measures. They didn't maximize, n'est-ce pas?
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: dashrashi on April 10, 2008, 12:41:44 PM

(http://msnbcmedia1.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/051012/051012_britneykevin_vmed_3p.widec.jpg)


Who is the better parent?


How in the @#!* would I know? By what I read in US Weekly?

Don't be toolish.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: LHL on April 10, 2008, 12:41:59 PM

(http://msnbcmedia1.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/051012/051012_britneykevin_vmed_3p.widec.jpg)


Who is the better parent?


LOL.  Whatever.  She is very noble.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 12:44:18 PM
If your dad worked and mom stayed home because of tradition, but they would have been happier and more effective workers and parents with a different structure, then I would say they did do something wrong--by their own measures. They didn't maximize, n'est-ce pas?

TITCR
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mugatu on April 10, 2008, 12:45:27 PM
assuming you believe that the purpose of life is to ensure the survival of one's genetic composition.

i assume this and that's why i don't help anyone who doesn't share my genes unless it eventually benefits me or my genes.

yup.

this standard is not outside of possibility.

i wasn't kidding.

i didn't insinuate you were.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Prestjesus on April 10, 2008, 12:45:53 PM
Jesus told me women are better nurturers? Is that was just happened here?

Jesus does not speak to women; he speaks to men who then speak down to women. That way women don’t get confused by all the voices in their heads.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: jack24 on April 10, 2008, 12:46:36 PM
I'm not saying anything about what people should always do.

Let me modify my statements a little bit.

If a man and Woman decide to start a family, one of them should be home with the kids.  I believe that women are better at nurturing and caring for small children, but that doesn't mean fathers are incapable, especially after they get a little experience.

Dash said she didn't want kids because they were a pain in the ass.  (Edit: Dash actually said many women don't want kids because they think kids are a pain in the ass, it is possible she may not think that)
Cady said when she hears a baby scream she gets the urge to shake something.

These two exceptional thinkers seem to have selfish motivations.  I might be wrong, but that is what their statements suggest.
If this trend continues, and the smartest and most responsible people in the world choose not to have children then we will end up overrun with Federline babies.
 
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 12:47:27 PM
Why is it selfish to acknowledge my limitations?
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mugatu on April 10, 2008, 12:49:17 PM

If a man and Woman decide to start a family, one of them should be home with the kids. 


Why?
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: jack24 on April 10, 2008, 12:50:33 PM
Why is it selfish to acknowledge my limitations?
It's actually humble in a way, but that's not a permanent limitation.
If You are impatient now, does that mean it's impossible for you to gain patience?

Selfish, or lazy..  Pick either one or both.

Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: jack24 on April 10, 2008, 12:52:39 PM

If a man and Woman decide to start a family, one of them should be home with the kids. 


Why?

I don't know, because Dr. Laura said so? 
The first five years of a child's life are so critical.  Don't you think you or your spouse should be the one to take care of them?

Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: dashrashi on April 10, 2008, 12:53:30 PM
I'm not saying anything about what people should always do.

Let me modify my statements a little bit.

If a man and Woman decide to start a family, one of them should be home with the kids.  I believe that women are better at nurturing and caring for small children, but that doesn't mean fathers are incapable, especially after they get a little experience.

Dash said she didn't want kids because they were a pain in the ass.  (Edit: Dash actually said many women don't want kids because they think kids are a pain in the ass, it is possible she may not think that)
Cady said when she hears a baby scream she gets the urge to shake something.

These two exceptional thinkers seem to have selfish motivations.  I might be wrong, but that is what their statements suggest.
If this trend continues, and the smartest and most responsible people in the world choose not to have children then we will end up overrun with Federline babies.
 


Way to not be able to read, dumbshit. I never spoke to my own plans. So, try again. This "argument" is muy sucky.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: jack24 on April 10, 2008, 12:54:10 PM
Holy @#!*, it just keeps getting better. :D

eta: I saw that, Dot. And you're thinking of my FB page. ;)

Why do you say the F word so much? 
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: just dot on April 10, 2008, 12:54:11 PM
Why is it selfish to acknowledge my limitations?
It's actually humble in a way, but that's not a permanent limitation.
If You are impatient now, does that mean it's impossible for you to gain patience?

Selfish, or lazy..  Pick either one or both.

You said that you plan on sub-contracting your parenting role off to your wife.  So, does that make you selfish or lazy?
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 12:54:46 PM
Why is it selfish to acknowledge my limitations?
It's actually humble in a way, but that's not a permanent limitation.
If You are impatient now, does that mean it's impossible for you to gain patience?

Selfish, or lazy..  Pick either one or both.



I...don't even know what to say to this.

First, I didn't say I was impatient. I'm terribly patient. See generally this tread.

Second, you're basically telling me that the only reasons I could not want children is that I'm selfish or lazy. Is that what you're trying to say, before I proceed to call you a douchefuck?
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Prestjesus on April 10, 2008, 12:56:10 PM

If a man and Woman decide to start a family, one of them should be home with the kids.  



Not always true. If after having the child the mother got fat and unattractive then the Lord understands that the man may have certain needs. Therefore, the Lord would not see it as inappropriate for the women to work outside the home and to use that money to hire an attractive young caregiver for the child. The Lord could see how this could benefit the child, and the man in reliving the man's sexual needs now that the wife can no longer do so, since she let herself go and all.  
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mbw on April 10, 2008, 12:57:02 PM
Some people on this thread are saying that it's restrictive to ask mothers to choose between careers or children.  Many women who have children are forced to work due to financial problems.  I don't have statistics to back it up, but it seems to me that a lot of mothers who have to work wish they could stay home with their children.

Women can choose to do whatever they want, but there is nothing wrong with a woman that thinks raising children is more noble and important than advancing her career.

You can suggest that I'm trying to use social forces to compel women to be "barefoot and pregnant in the Kitchen"
I'm not trying to compel anyone to do anything.  My wife chooses to stay home, and if she wanted to go back to work, I'd still love her just as much.
I'm arguing that progressives are trying to use social forces to compel women to "Get out and Work!"
Many in society are using arguments about equality to suggest that women who stay at home are somehow submitting to the will of their husbands.


Ok, I AM a stay at home mother, and even I don't like how you're phrasing things.  First of all, if your wife wants to stay home and is happy with it, more power to her!  Nobody on here has suggested that your wife needs to get out and work.

Actually, that's not necessarily true.  I don't think any woman "gets" to stay home, merely because she's a woman.  I think that in each family, the roles of "breadwinning", housework, parenting, financial planning, etc. need to be negotiated due to personal preferences and strengths, as well as benefit to the unit, NOT due to gender.  If SOMEONE wants to remain home with children, or merely because they want to sit and eat bon-bons all day, that's fine as long as it works for both parties.  But I never assumed that I would be the one to stay with the kids without those negotiations and I think it's detrimental to eradicating sexism if this isn't a central tenet of an egalitarian society.

ETA:  I modified and highlighted what I was addressing, so the goddess-formerly-known-as-Dotlyn wouldn't think I was addressing her choices.  I wanted to point out that, yes, someone here was suggesting his wife get out and work, if the only reason she wasn't was because she had unmentionables and estrogen.  ;)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: jack24 on April 10, 2008, 12:58:48 PM
I'm not saying anything about what people should always do.

Let me modify my statements a little bit.

If a man and Woman decide to start a family, one of them should be home with the kids.  I believe that women are better at nurturing and caring for small children, but that doesn't mean fathers are incapable, especially after they get a little experience.

Dash said she didn't want kids because they were a pain in the ass.  (Edit: Dash actually said many women don't want kids because they think kids are a pain in the ass, it is possible she may not think that)
Cady said when she hears a baby scream she gets the urge to shake something.

These two exceptional thinkers seem to have selfish motivations.  I might be wrong, but that is what their statements suggest.
If this trend continues, and the smartest and most responsible people in the world choose not to have children then we will end up overrun with Federline babies.
 


Way to not be able to read, dumbshit. I never spoke to my own plans. So, try again. This "argument" is muy sucky.


Okay, this is where I check out.  Sorry I have "traditional family values"

Dash, once again your bitchiness and your intelligence are running a foot race for your soul.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 12:59:57 PM
I'm not saying anything about what people should always do.

Let me modify my statements a little bit.

If a man and Woman decide to start a family, one of them should be home with the kids.  I believe that women are better at nurturing and caring for small children, but that doesn't mean fathers are incapable, especially after they get a little experience.

Dash said she didn't want kids because they were a pain in the ass.  (Edit: Dash actually said many women don't want kids because they think kids are a pain in the ass, it is possible she may not think that)
Cady said when she hears a baby scream she gets the urge to shake something.

These two exceptional thinkers seem to have selfish motivations.  I might be wrong, but that is what their statements suggest.
If this trend continues, and the smartest and most responsible people in the world choose not to have children then we will end up overrun with Federline babies.
 


Way to not be able to read, dumbshit. I never spoke to my own plans. So, try again. This "argument" is muy sucky.


Okay, this is where I check out.  Sorry I have "traditional family values"

Dash, once again your bitchiness and your intelligence are running a foot race for your soul.


lol

that's what it took? "That's not what I said"?

Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: jack24 on April 10, 2008, 01:04:53 PM
Real quick, I'm getting out of this argument I'm out of my league and outnumbered.
What makes so many of you people mad is that my point of view is still in the majority, but aparently not to many people on here feel that when women stay home, families tend to be happier.

tm,  use your incredible discussion board skills to "express" your values.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: dashrashi on April 10, 2008, 01:05:25 PM
I'm not saying anything about what people should always do.

Let me modify my statements a little bit.

If a man and Woman decide to start a family, one of them should be home with the kids.  I believe that women are better at nurturing and caring for small children, but that doesn't mean fathers are incapable, especially after they get a little experience.

Dash said she didn't want kids because they were a pain in the ass.  (Edit: Dash actually said many women don't want kids because they think kids are a pain in the ass, it is possible she may not think that)
Cady said when she hears a baby scream she gets the urge to shake something.

These two exceptional thinkers seem to have selfish motivations.  I might be wrong, but that is what their statements suggest.
If this trend continues, and the smartest and most responsible people in the world choose not to have children then we will end up overrun with Federline babies.
 


Way to not be able to read, dumbshit. I never spoke to my own plans. So, try again. This "argument" is muy sucky.


Okay, this is where I check out.  Sorry I have "traditional family values"

Dash, once again your bitchiness and your intelligence are running a foot race for your soul.


lol

that's what it took? "That's not what I said"?



WTF. Awesome.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 01:05:34 PM
I want to know what's running a footrace for MY soul.

My impatience and my laziness?









(in the interest of full disclosure, I'm totally both impatient and lazy)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 01:10:38 PM
I want to know what's running a footrace for MY soul.

Just a certain boy in rural Indiana.

Ever insightful.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mbw on April 10, 2008, 01:14:34 PM
Real quick, I'm getting out of this argument I'm out of my league and outnumbered.
What makes so many of you people mad is that my point of view is still in the majority, but aparently not to many people on here feel that when women stay home, families tend to be happier.

Families? Or men?   ::)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 01:17:45 PM
Women are never happy, anyway, right?

I mean, there's always a new pair of shoes to want, or a speck of dust to remove. We can't be satisfied.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: TNGA60 on April 10, 2008, 01:18:20 PM
actually, i think it's pretty much a given at this point that this current generation of women will not be happy.

sorry ladies.

This may have been true until K-Fed was placed back on the market.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: just dot on April 10, 2008, 01:19:31 PM
Real quick, I'm getting out of this argument I'm out of my league and outnumbered.
What makes so many of you people mad is that my point of view is still in the majority, but aparently not to many people on here feel that when women stay home, families tend to be happier.

Families? Or men?   ::)

OOOOH!  BURN!  Good one, MBW.  ::high fives::
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: BearlyLegal on April 10, 2008, 01:23:58 PM
Real quick, I'm getting out of this argument I'm out of my league and outnumbered.
What makes so many of you people mad is that my point of view is still in the majority, but aparently not to many people on here feel that when women stay home, families tend to be happier.

Families? Or men?   ::)

OOOOH!  BURN!  Good one, MBW.  ::high fives::
Seriously?

http://www.alternet.org/story/28621/
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Prestjesus on April 10, 2008, 01:25:04 PM
Real quick, I'm getting out of this argument I'm out of my league and outnumbered.
What makes so many of you people mad is that my point of view is still in the majority, but aparently not to many people on here feel that when women stay home, families tend to be happier.

tm,  use your incredible discussion board skills to "express" your values.


I think I was proving your point quite well thank you very much. Men >>>> dogs >>>> women
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: BearlyLegal on April 10, 2008, 01:27:12 PM
Bears >>>> Foxes >>>> Dogs >>>> People

hth
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: TNGA60 on April 10, 2008, 01:29:09 PM
actually, i think it's pretty much a given at this point that this current generation of women will not be happy.

sorry ladies.

This may have been true until K-Fed was placed back on the market.

what is your obsession with federline?  for that matter why do people pay attention to celebrity personal lives?  don't you have your own lives to attend to? 

seriously, celebrity news makes me very, very angry.

It was just what we in the biz refer to as a call back. No reason to get angry but I agree people should get a life...perhaps we should suggest arguing on the internet about gender roles.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: The Knight on April 10, 2008, 01:35:53 PM
Sorry I'm late.  I had to work today.

I would have gone ahead and won this thread earlier if I had been here.  I apologize for letting you all waste so much time.  Thirty four pages is pretty hefty.

Without any more ado I give you...
Awesome.
http://spikedhumor.com/articles/148748/The-Most-Chauvinistic-Man-Alive.html

I'd like to thank everyone for coming out and giving it their best shot.

Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: TNGA60 on April 10, 2008, 01:36:29 PM
It was just what we in the biz refer to as a call back. No reason to get angry but I agree people should get a life...perhaps we should suggest arguing on the internet about gender roles.

sadly, i think arguing on the internet is more of a life than paying attention to celebrity news. 

"the biz"?
I guess I should end any sarcastic or facetious comment with j/k. my bad.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mbw on April 10, 2008, 01:37:47 PM
Real quick, I'm getting out of this argument I'm out of my league and outnumbered.
What makes so many of you people mad is that my point of view is still in the majority, but aparently not to many people on here feel that when women stay home, families tend to be happier.

Families? Or men?   ::)

OOOOH!  BURN!  Good one, MBW.  ::high fives::
Seriously?

http://www.alternet.org/story/28621/

I didn't yet read the story, Bear (just trying to keep up w/ this thread while single-caregiving the kids) but I actually don't agree with what I said either.  I think for the men Jack is talking about, yeah.  But I think that there are a shitload of men who are not happy with the forced traditional role of breadwinner, and would prefer more choice in the matter, whether it's staying home to parent or eat bon-bons on the couch all day.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 01:42:11 PM
I want to sit at home and eat bon bons on the couch all day.

my classes were canceled today. that's pretty much what i've been doing. minus the bonbons.

Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: just dot on April 10, 2008, 01:43:55 PM
Real quick, I'm getting out of this argument I'm out of my league and outnumbered.
What makes so many of you people mad is that my point of view is still in the majority, but aparently not to many people on here feel that when women stay home, families tend to be happier.

Families? Or men?   ::)

OOOOH!  BURN!  Good one, MBW.  ::high fives::
Seriously?

http://www.alternet.org/story/28621/

Soooo true!  That article reinforces what I was saying earlier.  Too many times people (including men) are forced to make a choice between career and family.  After putting our careers on hold for 5-10 years to raise a family, we never quite catch back up to our working counterparts.  

Still, no regrets here.  I did the best I could with the options I had on the table.  I hope my children will have better ones when they face parenthood.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mbw on April 10, 2008, 01:44:02 PM
I want to sit at home and eat bon bons on the couch all day.

I gotta tell you, disc, that your new avatar drives me nuts, as it looks just like my college boyfriend. (I googled him after I saw that pic, and, omg, he looks just the same, though with somewhat less hair.)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mbw on April 10, 2008, 01:47:24 PM
Was your college boyfriend John Darnielle?  Because if so, I am jealous.

God, I'm so damn old, I had to google John Darnielle.

ETA:  I found out the ex is an executive vp of a major international telecom.  God, I am SO glad it didn't work out. 
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 01:48:13 PM
Mmmm, I don't know, without the bon bons it's just really not as appealing.

you're telling me.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: BearlyLegal on April 10, 2008, 01:59:27 PM
Real quick, I'm getting out of this argument I'm out of my league and outnumbered.
What makes so many of you people mad is that my point of view is still in the majority, but aparently not to many people on here feel that when women stay home, families tend to be happier.

Families? Or men?   ::)

OOOOH!  BURN!  Good one, MBW.  ::high fives::
Seriously?

http://www.alternet.org/story/28621/

I didn't yet read the story, Bear (just trying to keep up w/ this thread while single-caregiving the kids) but I actually don't agree with what I said either.  I think for the men Jack is talking about, yeah.  But I think that there are a shitload of men who are not happy with the forced traditional role of breadwinner, and would prefer more choice in the matter, whether it's staying home to parent or eat bon-bons on the couch all day.
Well, also, there are millions of educated, empowered women out there who don't want to be doing bull work 80 hours a week when they can afford to spend their time raising kids. Working for the man isn't any more noble than raising kids IMO.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mbw on April 10, 2008, 02:03:37 PM
I suppose the name reference is rather obscure, even if the band isn't . . . I figured the song and lyric would give it away.  :-\

MBW, assuming that you're "so old" that you also don't know The Mountain Goats -- highly recommend.  Especially if you're savoring failed relationships.

You know, I just bought an iPod, and downloaded a ton of music that I used to listen to, back in the day and all.  When I put it on shuffle, I realized so much of it was "breakup" music, generally more of the "@#!*-you, you suck" genre than boo-hoo, but still, clearly I went through a lot of failed relationships.  Now it all seems so funny, and I think, wow, was I really that intense about everything?
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Astro on April 10, 2008, 02:16:29 PM

Dash said she didn't want kids because they were a pain in the ass.  (Edit: Dash actually said many women don't want kids because they think kids are a pain in the ass, it is possible she may not think that)
Cady said when she hears a baby scream she gets the urge to shake something.

These two exceptional thinkers seem to have selfish motivations.  I might be wrong, but that is what their statements suggest.



LULZ @ "I can't beat their arguments so I'll just say they have an agenda -- those evil wymenz!"
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: BearlyLegal on April 10, 2008, 02:21:11 PM

Dash said she didn't want kids because they were a pain in the ass.  (Edit: Dash actually said many women don't want kids because they think kids are a pain in the ass, it is possible she may not think that)
Cady said when she hears a baby scream she gets the urge to shake something.

These two exceptional thinkers seem to have selfish motivations.  I might be wrong, but that is what their statements suggest.



LULZ @ "I can't beat their arguments so I'll just say they have an agenda -- those evil wymenz!"

Well I mean they do have an agenda. Not that it's wrong to have an agenda, and not that the agenda itself can't actually be right. But it's pretty hard to deny that the agenda does exist.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Astro on April 10, 2008, 02:21:21 PM

What makes so many of you people mad is that my point of view is still in the majority, but aparently not to many people on here feel that when women stay home, families tend to be happier.


So f-ing what if it actually is in the majority?

I mean, it's clearly the opinion of the majority of men in this country.  I wonder why.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Astro on April 10, 2008, 02:24:59 PM

Dash said she didn't want kids because they were a pain in the ass.  (Edit: Dash actually said many women don't want kids because they think kids are a pain in the ass, it is possible she may not think that)
Cady said when she hears a baby scream she gets the urge to shake something.

These two exceptional thinkers seem to have selfish motivations.  I might be wrong, but that is what their statements suggest.



LULZ @ "I can't beat their arguments so I'll just say they have an agenda -- those evil wymenz!"

Well I mean they do have an agenda. Not that it's wrong to have an agenda, and not that the agenda itself can't actually be right. But it's pretty hard to deny that the agenda does exist.

In the interests of saving time, I didn't want to point out that "agenda" here clearly has insidious connotations.

But now I've had to explain it, so thanks for wasting my time, Bearly.   >:(
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: BearlyLegal on April 10, 2008, 02:27:07 PM

Dash said she didn't want kids because they were a pain in the ass.  (Edit: Dash actually said many women don't want kids because they think kids are a pain in the ass, it is possible she may not think that)
Cady said when she hears a baby scream she gets the urge to shake something.

These two exceptional thinkers seem to have selfish motivations.  I might be wrong, but that is what their statements suggest.



LULZ @ "I can't beat their arguments so I'll just say they have an agenda -- those evil wymenz!"

Well I mean they do have an agenda. Not that it's wrong to have an agenda, and not that the agenda itself can't actually be right. But it's pretty hard to deny that the agenda does exist.

In the interests of saving time, I didn't want to point out that "agenda" here clearly has insidious connotations.

But now I've had to explain it, so thanks for wasting my time, Bearly.   >:(

Well I mean, I don't agree with Jack here, but it's not as if conservative (or for that matter, non-liberal) ideas really get much popular support around these parts. Know what I mean?
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: nike6075 on April 10, 2008, 02:28:11 PM

What makes so many of you people mad is that my point of view is still in the majority, but aparently not to many people on here feel that when women stay home, families tend to be happier.


So f-ing what if it actually is in the majority?

I mean, it's clearly the opinion of the majority of men in this country.  I wonder why.


I'm pretty sure this guy left over an hour ago.  But way to go ahead and get the last word in regardless.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: nike6075 on April 10, 2008, 02:31:42 PM
I'm pretty sure this guy left over an hour ago.  But way to go ahead and get the last word in regardless.

RESPECT THE X!

?
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: nike6075 on April 10, 2008, 02:34:58 PM
I'm pretty sure this guy left over an hour ago.  But way to go ahead and get the last word in regardless.

RESPECT THE X!

?

apparently reese never told you this when i told her to tell you every time Xavier won.

just getting in the last word. blame her.

Cool.  Because I'm not the type of person that has to get in the last word, I'll stay away from talking about Duke living up to their reputation as a bad tourney team.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: nike6075 on April 10, 2008, 02:39:09 PM
I'm pretty sure this guy left over an hour ago.  But way to go ahead and get the last word in regardless.

RESPECT THE X!

?

apparently reese never told you this when i told her to tell you every time Xavier won.

just getting in the last word. blame her.

Cool.  Because I'm not the type of person that has to get in the last word, I'll stay away from talking about Duke living up to their reputation as a bad tourney team.

I will also mention I told you I had Duke out in round two. The bad underachieving Kansas sure was bad and underachieving, no?

(Of course, it wasn't because of bad reputation but because Duke's post game is terrible, like I mentioned. See: 45-19 rebounding advantage for WVU.)

HTFH :)

I never said anything about kansas.  Duke's lack of a post game didn't seem to hurt them too much until march, in case you missed it.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: nike6075 on April 10, 2008, 02:41:26 PM
I never said anything about kansas.  Duke's lack of a post game didn't seem to hurt them too much until march, in case you missed it.

Kansas is another team that has recent bad postseason results. See Oral Roberts, Bradley, UCLA the last 3 years. You can't pick and choose when the nonsense "past reputation" logic applies.

And Duke played in a bad overrated conference and relied on streaky guard play, as anyone who watched them all year knows.

last word.

Boobs.  Your response?
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: nike6075 on April 10, 2008, 02:44:43 PM
There is no better end to this thread.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: nike6075 on April 10, 2008, 02:50:50 PM
Oh for @#!*'s sake.

Nice work fun-killer.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Astro on April 10, 2008, 02:52:39 PM

What makes so many of you people mad is that my point of view is still in the majority, but aparently not to many people on here feel that when women stay home, families tend to be happier.


So f-ing what if it actually is in the majority?

I mean, it's clearly the opinion of the majority of men in this country.  I wonder why.


I'm pretty sure this guy left over an hour ago.  But way to go ahead and get the last word in regardless.

It's a message board.  He'll come back, just like you did.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: nike6075 on April 10, 2008, 02:54:53 PM
Now.  Can someone please update me, preferably in less than five lines, on the past 37 pages of arguing, so that I can jump in rather than doing something productive. Thanks.

- women belong in the kitchen.
- oh no you didn't. nobody puts baby in the corner.
- i believe in family values.
- no, you're a moron.

that's what you missed.

Then boobs.  Don't forget the boobs, dude.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: nike6075 on April 10, 2008, 02:55:13 PM

What makes so many of you people mad is that my point of view is still in the majority, but aparently not to many people on here feel that when women stay home, families tend to be happier.


So f-ing what if it actually is in the majority?

I mean, it's clearly the opinion of the majority of men in this country.  I wonder why.


I'm pretty sure this guy left over an hour ago.  But way to go ahead and get the last word in regardless.

It's a message board.  He'll come back, just like you did.


I never left.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Astro on April 10, 2008, 02:56:49 PM

What makes so many of you people mad is that my point of view is still in the majority, but aparently not to many people on here feel that when women stay home, families tend to be happier.


So f-ing what if it actually is in the majority?

I mean, it's clearly the opinion of the majority of men in this country.  I wonder why.


I'm pretty sure this guy left over an hour ago.  But way to go ahead and get the last word in regardless.

It's a message board.  He'll come back, just like you did.


I never left.


Thou?
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: filet o' fish on April 10, 2008, 03:03:13 PM
  :D :D :D
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 03:48:05 PM

Dash said she didn't want kids because they were a pain in the ass.  (Edit: Dash actually said many women don't want kids because they think kids are a pain in the ass, it is possible she may not think that)
Cady said when she hears a baby scream she gets the urge to shake something.

These two exceptional thinkers seem to have selfish motivations.  I might be wrong, but that is what their statements suggest.



LULZ @ "I can't beat their arguments so I'll just say they have an agenda -- those evil wymenz!"

Well I mean they do have an agenda. Not that it's wrong to have an agenda, and not that the agenda itself can't actually be right. But it's pretty hard to deny that the agenda does exist.

In the interests of saving time, I didn't want to point out that "agenda" here clearly has insidious connotations.

But now I've had to explain it, so thanks for wasting my time, Bearly.   >:(

Well I mean, I don't agree with Jack here, but it's not as if conservative (or for that matter, non-liberal) ideas really get much popular support around these parts. Know what I mean?

oooooh the poooooor put upon conservatives not as lefty as Cady and Dash and our "butt buddies" posters.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: BearlyLegal on April 10, 2008, 03:51:22 PM

Dash said she didn't want kids because they were a pain in the ass.  (Edit: Dash actually said many women don't want kids because they think kids are a pain in the ass, it is possible she may not think that)
Cady said when she hears a baby scream she gets the urge to shake something.

These two exceptional thinkers seem to have selfish motivations.  I might be wrong, but that is what their statements suggest.



LULZ @ "I can't beat their arguments so I'll just say they have an agenda -- those evil wymenz!"

Well I mean they do have an agenda. Not that it's wrong to have an agenda, and not that the agenda itself can't actually be right. But it's pretty hard to deny that the agenda does exist.

In the interests of saving time, I didn't want to point out that "agenda" here clearly has insidious connotations.

But now I've had to explain it, so thanks for wasting my time, Bearly.   >:(

Well I mean, I don't agree with Jack here, but it's not as if conservative (or for that matter, non-liberal) ideas really get much popular support around these parts. Know what I mean?

oooooh the poooooor put upon conservatives not as lefty as Cady and Dash and our "butt buddies" posters.

It'd be nice to have a discussion board where you could debate stuff without pretty significant ideological preconceptions. I mean XOXO is obviously way worse in it's conservative bias, but this place sometimes feels like it's approaching "kill whitey" status.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: BearlyLegal on April 10, 2008, 03:56:01 PM
help, help, bearly is being oppressed!
Nah, I'll survive.

::In strong russian accent::

Next time I hold mouth shut, commerade premier! No need to send off to Gulag!   :D
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mbw on April 10, 2008, 03:56:44 PM

Dash said she didn't want kids because they were a pain in the ass.  (Edit: Dash actually said many women don't want kids because they think kids are a pain in the ass, it is possible she may not think that)
Cady said when she hears a baby scream she gets the urge to shake something.

These two exceptional thinkers seem to have selfish motivations.  I might be wrong, but that is what their statements suggest.



LULZ @ "I can't beat their arguments so I'll just say they have an agenda -- those evil wymenz!"

Well I mean they do have an agenda. Not that it's wrong to have an agenda, and not that the agenda itself can't actually be right. But it's pretty hard to deny that the agenda does exist.

In the interests of saving time, I didn't want to point out that "agenda" here clearly has insidious connotations.

But now I've had to explain it, so thanks for wasting my time, Bearly.   >:(

Well I mean, I don't agree with Jack here, but it's not as if conservative (or for that matter, non-liberal) ideas really get much popular support around these parts. Know what I mean?

oooooh the poooooor put upon conservatives not as lefty as Cady and Dash and our "butt buddies" posters.

It'd be nice to have a discussion board where you could debate stuff without pretty significant ideological preconceptions. I mean XOXO is obviously way worse in it's conservative bias, but this place sometimes feels like it's approaching "kill whitey" status.

I love ya, Bear, but my playpen is the Lefty Blogosphere, and LSD often looks like the National Review blog to me. ;)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 03:59:30 PM

Dash said she didn't want kids because they were a pain in the ass.  (Edit: Dash actually said many women don't want kids because they think kids are a pain in the ass, it is possible she may not think that)
Cady said when she hears a baby scream she gets the urge to shake something.

These two exceptional thinkers seem to have selfish motivations.  I might be wrong, but that is what their statements suggest.



LULZ @ "I can't beat their arguments so I'll just say they have an agenda -- those evil wymenz!"

Well I mean they do have an agenda. Not that it's wrong to have an agenda, and not that the agenda itself can't actually be right. But it's pretty hard to deny that the agenda does exist.

In the interests of saving time, I didn't want to point out that "agenda" here clearly has insidious connotations.

But now I've had to explain it, so thanks for wasting my time, Bearly.   >:(

Well I mean, I don't agree with Jack here, but it's not as if conservative (or for that matter, non-liberal) ideas really get much popular support around these parts. Know what I mean?

oooooh the poooooor put upon conservatives not as lefty as Cady and Dash and our "butt buddies" posters.

It'd be nice to have a discussion board where you could debate stuff without pretty significant ideological preconceptions. I mean XOXO is obviously way worse in it's conservative bias, but this place sometimes feels like it's approaching "kill whitey" status.

Oh lord.

I don't really get this complaint. I mean...I'm sorry more people here aren't stepping up and arguing with you? I'm sorry that there are outspoken posters who are farther left than you who take opposite positions in debate and argue vehemently? What?

There are quite a number of more conservative posters here. Lodge your complaints with them for not speaking up.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: BearlyLegal on April 10, 2008, 03:59:34 PM

Dash said she didn't want kids because they were a pain in the ass.  (Edit: Dash actually said many women don't want kids because they think kids are a pain in the ass, it is possible she may not think that)
Cady said when she hears a baby scream she gets the urge to shake something.

These two exceptional thinkers seem to have selfish motivations.  I might be wrong, but that is what their statements suggest.



LULZ @ "I can't beat their arguments so I'll just say they have an agenda -- those evil wymenz!"

Well I mean they do have an agenda. Not that it's wrong to have an agenda, and not that the agenda itself can't actually be right. But it's pretty hard to deny that the agenda does exist.

In the interests of saving time, I didn't want to point out that "agenda" here clearly has insidious connotations.

But now I've had to explain it, so thanks for wasting my time, Bearly.   >:(

Well I mean, I don't agree with Jack here, but it's not as if conservative (or for that matter, non-liberal) ideas really get much popular support around these parts. Know what I mean?

oooooh the poooooor put upon conservatives not as lefty as Cady and Dash and our "butt buddies" posters.

It'd be nice to have a discussion board where you could debate stuff without pretty significant ideological preconceptions. I mean XOXO is obviously way worse in it's conservative bias, but this place sometimes feels like it's approaching "kill whitey" status.

I love ya, Bear, but my playpen is the Lefty Blogosphere, and LSD often looks like the National Review blog to me. ;)
Hey don't get me wrong - I spend a lot of time on Slate and NPR, and nights are filled with Daily and Colbert, so I hear you, commerade.

Hay! Aren't you the one that wanted to ship whitey off this continent?!  ??? >:( ;)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mbw on April 10, 2008, 04:03:22 PM

I love ya, Bear, but my playpen is the Lefty Blogosphere, and LSD often looks like the National Review blog to me. ;)
Hey don't get me wrong - I spend a lot of time on Slate and NPR, and nights are filled with Daily and Colbert, so I hear you, commerade.

Hay! Aren't you the one that wanted to ship whitey off this continent?!  ??? >:( ;)

No.  I'm an equal-opportunity shipper.  All post-1492 immigrants, regardless of color, get boarding passes. ;)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: BearlyLegal on April 10, 2008, 04:13:06 PM

Dash said she didn't want kids because they were a pain in the ass.  (Edit: Dash actually said many women don't want kids because they think kids are a pain in the ass, it is possible she may not think that)
Cady said when she hears a baby scream she gets the urge to shake something.

These two exceptional thinkers seem to have selfish motivations.  I might be wrong, but that is what their statements suggest.



LULZ @ "I can't beat their arguments so I'll just say they have an agenda -- those evil wymenz!"

Well I mean they do have an agenda. Not that it's wrong to have an agenda, and not that the agenda itself can't actually be right. But it's pretty hard to deny that the agenda does exist.

In the interests of saving time, I didn't want to point out that "agenda" here clearly has insidious connotations.

But now I've had to explain it, so thanks for wasting my time, Bearly.   >:(

Well I mean, I don't agree with Jack here, but it's not as if conservative (or for that matter, non-liberal) ideas really get much popular support around these parts. Know what I mean?

oooooh the poooooor put upon conservatives not as lefty as Cady and Dash and our "butt buddies" posters.

It'd be nice to have a discussion board where you could debate stuff without pretty significant ideological preconceptions. I mean XOXO is obviously way worse in it's conservative bias, but this place sometimes feels like it's approaching "kill whitey" status.

Oh lord.

I don't really get this complaint. I mean...I'm sorry more people here aren't stepping up and arguing with you? I'm sorry that there are outspoken posters who are farther left than you who take opposite positions in debate and argue vehemently? What?

There are quite a number of more conservative posters here. Lodge your complaints with them for not speaking up.
Not much of a complaint as an observation. There are conservatives on here, but the board veterans do tend to lean more to the left - and seniority does have some status attached to it. I don't really care that much if anyone backs me up. I am totally comfortable defending my position by myself against as many people (left and right) as disagree with me (as I think I proved in the WASP thread the other day.)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mbw on April 10, 2008, 04:13:39 PM

(http://irritationx.googlepages.com/emot-nyd.gif)

You have a whole web server of these, don't you?  Probably alphabetized and categorized too.

:::begins developing plans to hack IrrX's emoticon database:::
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Elephant Lee on April 10, 2008, 05:27:05 PM
Can't be bothered to read the whole thread, but did anyone challenge the idea that children are potentially confused by hyphenated names or whatever? There are plenty of people out there with hyphenated names. Anecdotally, has anyone noticed that they have particular identity issues?
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Elephant Lee on April 10, 2008, 05:32:19 PM
Choices would have to be made. Just the same as in the present.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: BearlyLegal on April 10, 2008, 05:54:33 PM
If you think your children will be so retarded that they won't be able to intellectually handle a hyphenated last name, please I beg you do not have children!   :D :D :D
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mbw on April 10, 2008, 06:20:35 PM
Gee, lots of Spaniards (and sundry Latin Americans) have been doing it for centuries.  Guess that's why they're all so screwed up, neh?
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: BearlyLegal on April 10, 2008, 06:23:33 PM
Gee, lots of Spaniards (and sundry Latin Americans) have been doing it for centuries.  Guess that's why they're all so screwed up, neh?
Us slavs have this thing where we take our dad's first name, add to it -ich, and use that as a middle name. Also, many slaves keep their mother's name too.

So it's like Bearly Bearly-ovich Bearstein Legal. Telling you dood, kids can handle it! :P
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Ender Wiggin on April 10, 2008, 06:51:08 PM
God, I wish it was the Dark Ages, so we could burn you all at the stake as witches. 

<-----grumbles about growing up in the wrong era.

(http://z.about.com/d/atheism/1/7/7/0/3/WitchBurnStakeBritain-e.jpg)

Yeah, in your hemisphere.  In mine, women were developing agriculture, and hence, matriarchy blossomed during that time.

(http://www.lostworlds.org/a_EtowahGood.jpg)

Oh, really?

(http://www.catastrophism.com/cdrom/pubs/journals/i-digest/1997-2/00sacrif.gif)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Ender Wiggin on April 10, 2008, 07:07:05 PM
Some people on this thread are saying that it's restrictive to ask mothers to choose between careers or children.  Many women who have children are forced to work due to financial problems.  I don't have statistics to back it up, but it seems to me that a lot of mothers who have to work wish they could stay home with their children.

Women can choose to do whatever they want, but there is nothing wrong with a woman that thinks raising children is more noble and important than advancing her career.

You can suggest that I'm trying to use social forces to compel women to be "barefoot and pregnant in the Kitchen"
I'm not trying to compel anyone to do anything.  My wife chooses to stay home, and if she wanted to go back to work, I'd still love her just as much.
I'm arguing that progressives are trying to use social forces to compel women to "Get out and Work!"
Many in society are using arguments about equality to suggest that women who stay at home are somehow submitting to the will of their husbands.

It's being opposed to Essentialism.  Really, now, why do women get, by default, to stay home if they want?  Because they have unmentionables and estrogen?  Seriously, I'm trying to understand why you think women get to be the ones, by default, to stay home to parent children.

Totally playing Devil's Advocate here, but do you really think it happened by default?  I don't want to plagiarize, so I will credit Merriam-Webster for this:

5 a: a selection made usually automatically or without active consideration due to lack of a viable alternative

Whether the alternative was viable is certainly up to debate, but I would tend to think that there are many reasons (good or not?  I don't know) why women, over time, became the principle caregivers. 
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 07:33:20 PM
I feel like it might be important to note, since we're talking about historical development, that being a primary caretaker and being a stay at home mom aren't entirely synonymous.

While I by no means want to denigrate the amount of work that stay at home parents do (I certainly wouldn't want the job; my mother was a stay at home parent and I have tons of respect for her), it's simply not, imo, an analogous position.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 07:35:54 PM
cady, you're taking my last name right?

of course.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mbw on April 10, 2008, 07:37:58 PM
God, I wish it was the Dark Ages, so we could burn you all at the stake as witches. 

<-----grumbles about growing up in the wrong era.

(http://z.about.com/d/atheism/1/7/7/0/3/WitchBurnStakeBritain-e.jpg)

Yeah, in your hemisphere.  In mine, women were developing agriculture, and hence, matriarchy blossomed during that time.

(http://www.lostworlds.org/a_EtowahGood.jpg)

Oh, really?

(http://www.catastrophism.com/cdrom/pubs/journals/i-digest/1997-2/00sacrif.gif)

The carving above is Mayan, from the Classical period (200-900AD) (IIRC, from the ballcourt at Chichen Itza) which in fact correlates to the Dark Ages in Europe.  However, despite a predilection for human sacrifice (including children), and some gender roles, there's pretty strong evidence that Mayan culture was relatively egalitarian.  I recall a number of papers on the subject at a conference in which I presented back in 1994, (all included in a volume, Women in Prehistory (Joyce and Claassen, eds., UPenn Press).)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Ender Wiggin on April 10, 2008, 07:40:34 PM
I'm not saying anything about what people should always do.

Let me modify my statements a little bit.

If a man and Woman decide to start a family, one of them should be home with the kids.  I believe that women are better at nurturing and caring for small children, but that doesn't mean fathers are incapable, especially after they get a little experience.

Dash said she didn't want kids because they were a pain in the ass.  (Edit: Dash actually said many women don't want kids because they think kids are a pain in the ass, it is possible she may not think that)
Cady said when she hears a baby scream she gets the urge to shake something.

These two exceptional thinkers seem to have selfish motivations.  I might be wrong, but that is what their statements suggest.
If this trend continues, and the smartest and most responsible people in the world choose not to have children then we will end up overrun with Federline babies.
 


Um, these three things DO add up to . . . well, not necessarily telling someone what to do, but they are certainly prescriptive statements that carry a heavy moral imperative.

Furthermore, I would really like to try to see you to wriggle out of the usual consequence of the view that "women are better nurturers," which is that "men are better at . . . everything else."

In any case, what you are saying here isn't necessarily that you think that women should be tied to the kitchen, but you ARE saying that a woman who does anything other than be a mother is basically a fish out of water, or not living up to the *only* real potential she has.
 

I won't argue with you whether that's the "usual consequence" of that view, but I think it's entirely possible that women are better at everything (except writing their names in the snow).  What about this scenario:

Woman:  I am better at everything than you are.  We are going to have a child.  It's pretty important that we don't @#!* that up.  I will take care of the little brat, and you try not to @#!* everything else up, dipshit. 

Man:  Whatever you say.  I live to serve.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Ender Wiggin on April 10, 2008, 07:43:58 PM
God, I wish it was the Dark Ages, so we could burn you all at the stake as witches. 

<-----grumbles about growing up in the wrong era.

(http://z.about.com/d/atheism/1/7/7/0/3/WitchBurnStakeBritain-e.jpg)

Yeah, in your hemisphere.  In mine, women were developing agriculture, and hence, matriarchy blossomed during that time.

(http://www.lostworlds.org/a_EtowahGood.jpg)

Oh, really?

(http://www.catastrophism.com/cdrom/pubs/journals/i-digest/1997-2/00sacrif.gif)

The carving above is Mayan, from the Classical period (200-900AD) (IIRC, from the ballcourt at Chichen Itza) which in fact correlates to the Dark Ages in Europe.  However, despite a predilection for human sacrifice (including children), and some gender roles, there's pretty strong evidence that Mayan culture was relatively egalitarian.  I recall a number of papers on the subject at a conference in which I presented back in 1994, (all included in a volume, Women in Prehistory (Joyce and Claassen, eds., UPenn Press).)

And all the people in Europe and Asia were just killing each other?  Egalitarian is a word derived from French and Latin.  I think they had some notion of what it meant to be good to each other as well. 

I really want to agree with you, but I can't cozy up to this argument.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: dashrashi on April 10, 2008, 07:50:21 PM
help, help, bearly's being oppressed! violence inherent in the system!

MARRY ME. And change your name.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mbw on April 10, 2008, 07:57:45 PM
God, I wish it was the Dark Ages, so we could burn you all at the stake as witches. 

<-----grumbles about growing up in the wrong era.

(http://z.about.com/d/atheism/1/7/7/0/3/WitchBurnStakeBritain-e.jpg)

Yeah, in your hemisphere.  In mine, women were developing agriculture, and hence, matriarchy blossomed during that time.

(http://www.lostworlds.org/a_EtowahGood.jpg)

Oh, really?

(http://www.catastrophism.com/cdrom/pubs/journals/i-digest/1997-2/00sacrif.gif)

The carving above is Mayan, from the Classical period (200-900AD) (IIRC, from the ballcourt at Chichen Itza) which in fact correlates to the Dark Ages in Europe.  However, despite a predilection for human sacrifice (including children), and some gender roles, there's pretty strong evidence that Mayan culture was relatively egalitarian.  I recall a number of papers on the subject at a conference in which I presented back in 1994, (all included in a volume, Women in Prehistory (Joyce and Claassen, eds., UPenn Press).)

And all the people in Europe and Asia were just killing each other?  Egalitarian is a word derived from French and Latin.  I think they had some notion of what it meant to be good to each other as well. 

I really want to agree with you, but I can't cozy up to this argument.

There's a difference between people killing each other, and the development and eventual primacy of patriarchy, which, it is theorized (in at least one major theoretical framework) originates, in part, from the wide-scale domestication of animals.  Other than llamas and guinea pigs, there wasn't a lot of domestication going on in the Western Hemisphere, and, hence, patriarchy as we know it, appears to have failed to develop, at least until after introduction in 1492.  But we're now talking the basis of gender anthro in the New World, which, while pretty much in its infancy back when I was involved in the '90s, has blossomed to the point the many men (egads!) now support the evil framework, and thus could fill many courses, let alone threads here at LSD.  We probably really don't want to go there.

However, when I use the term egalitarian when talking about gender vis-a-vis Old World and New, it references equality between sexes and/or genders, not class issues.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Ender Wiggin on April 10, 2008, 08:04:36 PM

I love ya, Bear, but my playpen is the Lefty Blogosphere, and LSD often looks like the National Review blog to me. ;)
Hey don't get me wrong - I spend a lot of time on Slate and NPR, and nights are filled with Daily and Colbert, so I hear you, commerade.

Hay! Aren't you the one that wanted to ship whitey off this continent?!  ??? >:( ;)

No.  I'm an equal-opportunity shipper.  All post-1492 immigrants, regardless of color, get boarding passes. ;)

So Leif Ericson's boys are ok to stick around?
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Ender Wiggin on April 10, 2008, 08:06:39 PM
Can't be bothered to read the whole thread, but did anyone challenge the idea that children are potentially confused by hyphenated names or whatever? There are plenty of people out there with hyphenated names. Anecdotally, has anyone noticed that they have particular identity issues?

Well, I just said that the parents are dorks.  Does that count?  I really don't care if the kids are confused.  They're going to get their asses kicked so much, they won't be talking much.  Nobody will ever know if they're confused.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mbw on April 10, 2008, 08:12:25 PM

I love ya, Bear, but my playpen is the Lefty Blogosphere, and LSD often looks like the National Review blog to me. ;)
Hey don't get me wrong - I spend a lot of time on Slate and NPR, and nights are filled with Daily and Colbert, so I hear you, commerade.

Hay! Aren't you the one that wanted to ship whitey off this continent?!  ??? >:( ;)

No.  I'm an equal-opportunity shipper.  All post-1492 immigrants, regardless of color, get boarding passes. ;)

So Leif Ericson's boys are ok to stick around?

Last I checked, they booked return passage back in the 11th Century.  ;)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Ender Wiggin on April 10, 2008, 08:20:52 PM

There's a difference between people killing each other, and the development and eventual primacy of patriarchy, which, it is theorized (in at least one major theoretical framework) originates, in part, from the wide-scale domestication of animals.  Other than llamas and guinea pigs, there wasn't a lot of domestication going on in the Western Hemisphere, and, hence, patriarchy as we know it, appears to have failed to develop, at least until after introduction in 1492.  But we're now talking the basis of gender anthro in the New World, which, while pretty much in its infancy back when I was involved in the '90s, has blossomed to the point the many men (egads!) now support the evil framework, and thus could fill many courses, let alone threads here at LSD.  We probably really don't want to go there.

However, when I use the term egalitarian when talking about gender vis-a-vis Old World and New, it references equality between sexes and/or genders, not class issues.

Let me separate the issues for a moment.  I think matriarchy might be better than patriarchy, though (as was stated earlier in this thread) I would prefer to do without either.  If some sort of asexual alien invaders come and take over the Earth, that might settle things for us.

However, though I understand (at least in a limited way) why you make pro-Native American arguments, I think they are sometimes overdone.  If human life started in Africa, and the Native Americans wandered over here at some point (from Asia, possibly via Beringia), aren't they immigrants as well (though certainly earlier than the Europeans)?  Some of the arguments, though generally valid, tend towards ethnocentrism.  I'm not going to even try to quantify which races are the most violent, which are more egalitarian, etc.  They all developed under different circumstances, so comparing them more than superficially is, though short of pointless, at least frustrating. 
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: t... on April 10, 2008, 08:28:36 PM
It'd be nice to have a discussion board where you could debate stuff without pretty significant ideological preconceptions. I mean XOXO is obviously way worse in it's conservative bias, but this place sometimes feels like it's approaching "kill whitey" status.

Dude, just be glad you haven't tangled with the Captain, Miss P, or red.

Honest.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Ender Wiggin on April 10, 2008, 08:28:57 PM

I love ya, Bear, but my playpen is the Lefty Blogosphere, and LSD often looks like the National Review blog to me. ;)
Hey don't get me wrong - I spend a lot of time on Slate and NPR, and nights are filled with Daily and Colbert, so I hear you, commerade.

Hay! Aren't you the one that wanted to ship whitey off this continent?!  ??? >:( ;)

No.  I'm an equal-opportunity shipper.  All post-1492 immigrants, regardless of color, get boarding passes. ;)

So Leif Ericson's boys are ok to stick around?

Last I checked, they booked return passage back in the 11th Century.  ;)

Why do only the earliest immigrants get to stay?  Isn't the way of the world that the most powerful win?  Shouldn't the most devious, self-serving people be the ones to get the spoils?  (I certainly don't think so, but that seems to be the way of things.)

It does seem quite unfair, this game of Musical Chairs (with killings added in to spice things up) that nations have always played.  Why shouldn't the losers be allowed to pick up chairs and crack the winners over their heads?  History sure makes it hard to be consistent.  If I support the Native Americans, do I have to also support the Palestinians?  And if terrorism is wrong, wasn't also Wounded Knee? 

The real question is, why are people still looking for sanity and logic on this planet? 

3 a: extreme folly or unreasonableness b: something utterly foolish or unreasonable (credit www.m-w.com again for that)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 08:31:02 PM
It'd be nice to have a discussion board where you could debate stuff without pretty significant ideological preconceptions. I mean XOXO is obviously way worse in it's conservative bias, but this place sometimes feels like it's approaching "kill whitey" status.

Dude, just be glad you haven't tangled with the Captain, Miss P, or red.

Honest.

 :(  am I not good enough?

(ok, I'm not, I know)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Ender Wiggin on April 10, 2008, 08:38:08 PM
It'd be nice to have a discussion board where you could debate stuff without pretty significant ideological preconceptions. I mean XOXO is obviously way worse in it's conservative bias, but this place sometimes feels like it's approaching "kill whitey" status.

Dude, just be glad you haven't tangled with the Captain, Miss P, or red.

Honest.

 :(  am I not good enough?

(ok, I'm not, I know)

Quite the contrary.  You're so frikkin' fun to read, I find it hard to even playfully disagree with you.  You and Dash made my day today.  I even think it's possible that, if you or Dash chose to hyphenate your names, it wouldn't just be pretentious.  (You do have to admit that for many people they just do it 'cause they're dorks.)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Elephant Lee on April 10, 2008, 08:41:48 PM
Can't be bothered to read the whole thread, but did anyone challenge the idea that children are potentially confused by hyphenated names or whatever? There are plenty of people out there with hyphenated names. Anecdotally, has anyone noticed that they have particular identity issues?

Well, I just said that the parents are dorks.  Does that count?  I really don't care if the kids are confused.  They're going to get their asses kicked so much, they won't be talking much.  Nobody will ever know if they're confused.
The only kid I went to school with that had a hyphenated name was really smart and played volleyball at an ivy league school. I don't remember her getting beat up.

It was someone else who had the confused bit.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: t... on April 10, 2008, 08:45:08 PM
cady, you're taking my last name right?

of course.

Are we moving to Utah?
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: t... on April 10, 2008, 08:47:33 PM
It'd be nice to have a discussion board where you could debate stuff without pretty significant ideological preconceptions. I mean XOXO is obviously way worse in it's conservative bias, but this place sometimes feels like it's approaching "kill whitey" status.

Dude, just be glad you haven't tangled with the Captain, Miss P, or red.

Honest.

 :(  am I not good enough?

(ok, I'm not, I know)

No no, dear - you've been masterful in this (and the other) thread.

But dude's talking about raging leftie lunatics with agendas that never relent and, well...

Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Ender Wiggin on April 10, 2008, 08:52:08 PM
Can't be bothered to read the whole thread, but did anyone challenge the idea that children are potentially confused by hyphenated names or whatever? There are plenty of people out there with hyphenated names. Anecdotally, has anyone noticed that they have particular identity issues?

Well, I just said that the parents are dorks.  Does that count?  I really don't care if the kids are confused.  They're going to get their asses kicked so much, they won't be talking much.  Nobody will ever know if they're confused.
The only kid I went to school with that had a hyphenated name was really smart and played volleyball at an ivy league school. I don't remember her getting beat up.

It was someone else who had the confused bit.

There is no way that person did not receive significant ass-beatings. 
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 10, 2008, 08:53:25 PM
It'd be nice to have a discussion board where you could debate stuff without pretty significant ideological preconceptions. I mean XOXO is obviously way worse in it's conservative bias, but this place sometimes feels like it's approaching "kill whitey" status.

Dude, just be glad you haven't tangled with the Captain, Miss P, or red.

Honest.

 :(  am I not good enough?

(ok, I'm not, I know)

Quite the contrary.  You're so frikkin' fun to read, I find it hard to even playfully disagree with you.  You and Dash made my day today.  I even think it's possible that, if you or Dash chose to hyphenate your names, it wouldn't just be pretentious.  (You do have to admit that for many people they just do it 'cause they're dorks.)

why thank you

I totally wasn't fishing for compliments, for the record ;)

Except from t...


No no, dear - you've been masterful in this (and the other) thread.

But dude's talking about raging leftie lunatics with agendas that never relent and, well...



 :-*

True enough.

cady, you're taking my last name right?

of course.

Are we moving to Utah?

I was thinking Arizona.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mbw on April 10, 2008, 08:56:21 PM

There's a difference between people killing each other, and the development and eventual primacy of patriarchy, which, it is theorized (in at least one major theoretical framework) originates, in part, from the wide-scale domestication of animals.  Other than llamas and guinea pigs, there wasn't a lot of domestication going on in the Western Hemisphere, and, hence, patriarchy as we know it, appears to have failed to develop, at least until after introduction in 1492.  But we're now talking the basis of gender anthro in the New World, which, while pretty much in its infancy back when I was involved in the '90s, has blossomed to the point the many men (egads!) now support the evil framework, and thus could fill many courses, let alone threads here at LSD.  We probably really don't want to go there.

However, when I use the term egalitarian when talking about gender vis-a-vis Old World and New, it references equality between sexes and/or genders, not class issues.

Let me separate the issues for a moment.  I think matriarchy might be better than patriarchy, though (as was stated earlier in this thread) I would prefer to do without either.  If some sort of asexual alien invaders come and take over the Earth, that might settle things for us.

Matriarchy and patriarchy are not two sides of the same coin.  Patriarchy subjugates non-males, reducing their power; matriarchy asserts that women have equal status and power, though they might have different gender roles from men.

Quote
However, though I understand (at least in a limited way) why you make pro-Native American arguments, I think they are sometimes overdone.  If human life started in Africa, and the Native Americans wandered over here at some point (from Asia, possibly via Beringia), aren't they immigrants as well (though certainly earlier than the Europeans)?  Some of the arguments, though generally valid, tend towards ethnocentrism.  I'm not going to even try to quantify which races are the most violent, which are more egalitarian, etc.  They all developed under different circumstances, so comparing them more than superficially is, though short of pointless, at least frustrating.
 

That felt a little condescending, but I'll overlook it (and not be so sensitive.)  My original post was half joking, a means to point out that the patriarchy which allowed the mass execution of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of women in Europe was rather culture-specific - I was in fact gently chiding your for your Eurocentricism.  Hence the closing emoticon.

Are NDNs immigrants?  Maybe (see Vine Deloria), though when (sites in SA dating to 40KBP, Beringia to 14KBP) isn't certain.  Clearly long before "civilization" of any kind, and long before most groups were permanently established anywhere else around the globe.  If we're immigrants, so are everyone else, and thus no one has a claim to nationhood.  And I don't really ever argue who was more this or that, because, frankly, over both time and space, everything is constantly changing (though we won't talk about how NDNs are expected, in order to be viewed as "authentic", to be static, unchanged from 1491.  In Canada, it's the law.)  However, patriarchy, along with animal domestication, dual-host pathogens, wheat, steel, etc., appear to have been generally missing throughout much of the Western Hemisphere, as far as we can detect.  Of course, many Processualist archaeologists will argue it can never be detected.  I just happen to be a Post-Processualist. ;)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Ender Wiggin on April 10, 2008, 09:08:48 PM

There's a difference between people killing each other, and the development and eventual primacy of patriarchy, which, it is theorized (in at least one major theoretical framework) originates, in part, from the wide-scale domestication of animals.  Other than llamas and guinea pigs, there wasn't a lot of domestication going on in the Western Hemisphere, and, hence, patriarchy as we know it, appears to have failed to develop, at least until after introduction in 1492.  But we're now talking the basis of gender anthro in the New World, which, while pretty much in its infancy back when I was involved in the '90s, has blossomed to the point the many men (egads!) now support the evil framework, and thus could fill many courses, let alone threads here at LSD.  We probably really don't want to go there.

However, when I use the term egalitarian when talking about gender vis-a-vis Old World and New, it references equality between sexes and/or genders, not class issues.

Let me separate the issues for a moment.  I think matriarchy might be better than patriarchy, though (as was stated earlier in this thread) I would prefer to do without either.  If some sort of asexual alien invaders come and take over the Earth, that might settle things for us.

Matriarchy and patriarchy are not two sides of the same coin.  Patriarchy subjugates non-males, reducing their power; matriarchy asserts that women have equal status and power, though they might have different gender roles from men.

Quote
However, though I understand (at least in a limited way) why you make pro-Native American arguments, I think they are sometimes overdone.  If human life started in Africa, and the Native Americans wandered over here at some point (from Asia, possibly via Beringia), aren't they immigrants as well (though certainly earlier than the Europeans)?  Some of the arguments, though generally valid, tend towards ethnocentrism.  I'm not going to even try to quantify which races are the most violent, which are more egalitarian, etc.  They all developed under different circumstances, so comparing them more than superficially is, though short of pointless, at least frustrating.
 

That felt a little condescending, but I'll overlook it (and not be so sensitive.)  My original post was half joking, a means to point out that the patriarchy which allowed the mass execution of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of women in Europe was rather culture-specific - I was in fact gently chiding your for your Eurocentricism.  Hence the closing emoticon.

Are NDNs immigrants?  Maybe (see Vine Deloria), though when (sites in SA dating to 40KBP, Beringia to 14KBP) isn't certain.  Clearly long before "civilization" of any kind, and long before most groups were permanently established anywhere else around the globe.  If we're immigrants, so are everyone else, and thus no one has a claim to nationhood.  And I don't really ever argue who was more this or that, because, frankly, over both time and space, everything is constantly changing (though we won't talk about how NDNs are expected, in order to be viewed as "authentic", to be static, unchanged from 1491.  In Canada, it's the law.)  However, patriarchy, along with animal domestication, dual-host pathogens, wheat, steel, etc., appear to have been generally missing throughout much of the Western Hemisphere, as far as we can detect.  Of course, many Processualist archaeologists will argue it can never be detected.  I just happen to be a Post-Processualist. ;)


I am certainly not going to say that men and women are equal (though I will leave it to you to decide, or discover, which gender I believe to be "superior"). 

I wasn't trying to sound (or be) condescending, so if I did (or was) I apologize.  I agree with most of what you say, and very often support your positions, but I thought you at least oversimplified that one.  People, not races, are brutal and oppressive--certainly not all of them, but also not exclusively one group of them.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Ender Wiggin on April 10, 2008, 09:16:19 PM
I just happen to be a Post-Processualist. ;)


As long as you admit it.   :o
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mbw on April 10, 2008, 09:22:18 PM

I love ya, Bear, but my playpen is the Lefty Blogosphere, and LSD often looks like the National Review blog to me. ;)
Hey don't get me wrong - I spend a lot of time on Slate and NPR, and nights are filled with Daily and Colbert, so I hear you, commerade.

Hay! Aren't you the one that wanted to ship whitey off this continent?!  ??? >:( ;)

No.  I'm an equal-opportunity shipper.  All post-1492 immigrants, regardless of color, get boarding passes. ;)

So Leif Ericson's boys are ok to stick around?

Last I checked, they booked return passage back in the 11th Century.  ;)

Why do only the earliest immigrants get to stay?  Isn't the way of the world that the most powerful win?  Shouldn't the most devious, self-serving people be the ones to get the spoils?  (I certainly don't think so, but that seems to be the way of things.)

It does seem quite unfair, this game of Musical Chairs (with killings added in to spice things up) that nations have always played.  Why shouldn't the losers be allowed to pick up chairs and crack the winners over their heads?  History sure makes it hard to be consistent.  If I support the Native Americans, do I have to also support the Palestinians?  And if terrorism is wrong, wasn't also Wounded Knee? 

The real question is, why are people still looking for sanity and logic on this planet? 

3 a: extreme folly or unreasonableness b: something utterly foolish or unreasonable (credit www.m-w.com again for that)

Well, there are a number of NDNs (Tim Giago) who argue that Wounded Knee was NDN-on-NDN terrorism, and despite my currently sporting an avatar of Anna Mae Aquash (on the left), I can see his point (I'm not a big AIM fan.)  I do, however, support Palestinians, along with most other indigenous peoples.  Should we be cheering, go China! Squash those Tibetan monks!  How about Aboriginals in Australia, Maoris in New Zealand, Zulus and Timorese.  Do we say, eh, @#!* all indigenous rights - Euros beat you with superior germ warfare (developed from co-habitating with sheep, cows and chickens), so eat dust, or better yet, assimilate.  And if so, why does the US recognize its few hundred treaties, and those of its antecedents, with its "domestic dependent", i.e. subjugated, indigenous populations?

I expect you're playing devil's advocate here, as I don't take you for someone who would seek to quash indigenous rights.  You just don't fit that type ;).
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mbw on April 10, 2008, 09:26:16 PM
I just happen to be a Post-Processualist. ;)


As long as you admit it.   :o

I'm a protégé of Wobst.  "We study dead people's garbage."  ;)

ETA:  LOL, found the title of his latest book, Indigenous Archaeologies: Decolonizing Theory and Practice.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: obamacon on April 10, 2008, 09:33:50 PM
I live in the south and it is still very common for the wife to take her husband's name

You say that like it isn't common elsewhere.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Ender Wiggin on April 10, 2008, 09:44:41 PM

Well, there are a number of NDNs (Tim Giago) who argue that Wounded Knee was NDN-on-NDN terrorism, and despite my currently sporting an avatar of Anna Mae Aquash (on the left), I can see his point (I'm not a big AIM fan.)  I do, however, support Palestinians, along with most other indigenous peoples.  Should we be cheering, go China! Squash those Tibetan monks!  How about Aboriginals in Australia, Maoris in New Zealand, Zulus and Timorese.  Do we say, eh, @#!* all indigenous rights - Euros beat you with superior germ warfare (developed from co-habitating with sheep, cows and chickens), so eat dust, or better yet, assimilate.  And if so, why does the US recognize its few hundred treaties, and those of its antecedents, with its "domestic dependent", i.e. subjugated, indigenous populations?

I expect you're playing devil's advocate here, as I don't take you for someone who would seek to quash indigenous rights.  You just don't fit that type ;).

To save me from endless googling, would you please tell me what is an "NDN?"  I am still trying furiously to compensate for all of the brain cells I have destroyed, but for now there are large gaps in my knowledge.  (It's amazing that I am able to hold a reasonably intelligent conversation with what little brain power I have left.)

It's usually a pretty safe bet that I am playing D.A., because I usually am at least part of the time. 

You could say that, when we support the right of the most powerful to dominate those who are unable to stand before them, we are simply mirroring what happens in nature.  The strong survive, and the weak do not.  Perhaps that is a better guarantee of the survival of the human race. 

But then the argument could made that, in supporting the primacy of those nations who achieve their status through conquest, we are simply setting ourselves up for Armageddon. 

Either way, it's ironic that (probably) the only way to stop the perceived injustice is for the "righteous" to band together and kill the "oppressors."  (Ironic because, as soon as they are in power, they will become as bad as anyone else who has ever held power for long enough.) 
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mbw on April 10, 2008, 10:06:45 PM
If you say the initials out loud, you'll get it. N-D-N.  ;)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Ender Wiggin on April 10, 2008, 10:37:49 PM
If you say the initials out loud, you'll get it. N-D-N.  ;)

I assumed that was at least part of it, but I thought there would be more.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mbw on April 10, 2008, 11:01:16 PM
If you say the initials out loud, you'll get it. N-D-N.  ;)

I assumed that was at least part of it, but I thought there would be more.

eh, we're simple people. Plus, it's a way to get around the whole Native American vs. American Indian crap.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: dashrashi on April 11, 2008, 06:25:39 AM
help, help, bearly's being oppressed! violence inherent in the system!

MARRY ME. And change your name.

Don't tell me you're a Celtics fan.  >:(

Merely a Python one.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Astro on April 11, 2008, 07:27:08 AM

Matriarchy and patriarchy are not two sides of the same coin.  Patriarchy subjugates non-males, reducing their power; matriarchy asserts that women have equal status and power, though they might have different gender roles from men.



Hmm...  I don't know if I agree.  I think this definition is a bit self-serving.  It's a little too rosy. 
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Astro on April 11, 2008, 07:29:46 AM
I do, however, support Palestinians, along with most other indigenous peoples.  Should we be cheering, go China! Squash those Tibetan monks!  How about Aboriginals in Australia, Maoris in New Zealand, Zulus and Timorese. 


Who, do you believe, is picking on the Zulus now?
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Astro on April 11, 2008, 07:53:53 AM
I do, however, support Palestinians, along with most other indigenous peoples.  Should we be cheering, go China! Squash those Tibetan monks!  How about Aboriginals in Australia, Maoris in New Zealand, Zulus and Timorese. 

Who, do you believe, is picking on the Zulus now?

the Xhosa.  duh.

Well, that would be the correct answer, but then the analogy doesn't quite hold, considering it was the other way round a little more than a century ago.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Astro on April 11, 2008, 08:02:15 AM
I do, however, support Palestinians, along with most other indigenous peoples.  Should we be cheering, go China! Squash those Tibetan monks!  How about Aboriginals in Australia, Maoris in New Zealand, Zulus and Timorese. 

Who, do you believe, is picking on the Zulus now?

the Xhosa.  duh.

Well, that would be the correct answer, but then the analogy doesn't quite hold, considering it was the other way round a little more than a century ago.

i didn't comment on the analogy.  i was just answering your question.  why are you so damned demanding?

Because you're always making trouble!   >:(
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Astro on April 11, 2008, 08:26:02 AM
Because you're always making trouble!   >:(

but that's just what i do.

i also build bomb shelters for when lsd crashes.

That's a lie.

Nobody trusts you because you're a liar.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Astro on April 11, 2008, 08:43:04 AM
help, help, bearly's being oppressed! violence inherent in the system!

MARRY ME. And change your name.

Don't tell me you're a Celtics fan.  >:(

Merely a Python one.

Seriously? That's all it takes?

He didn't even get the quote right.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: filet o' fish on April 11, 2008, 08:50:35 AM
That's a lie.

Nobody trusts you because you're a liar.

you're right, everything i say is a lie.

 :)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: dashrashi on April 11, 2008, 09:05:54 AM
help, help, bearly's being oppressed! violence inherent in the system!

MARRY ME. And change your name.

Don't tell me you're a Celtics fan.  >:(

Merely a Python one.

Seriously? That's all it takes?

He didn't even get the quote right.


TITCR.

Be that as it may, it was the perfect rejoinder to the rather-whiny "This place is so liberal, gawd" thing.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Astro on April 11, 2008, 09:08:30 AM
help, help, bearly's being oppressed! violence inherent in the system!

MARRY ME. And change your name.

Don't tell me you're a Celtics fan.  >:(

Merely a Python one.

Seriously? That's all it takes?

He didn't even get the quote right.


TITCR.

Be that as it may, it was the perfect rejoinder to the rather-whiny "This place is so liberal, gawd" thing.

The perfect retort would've been, "No-one is to stone anyone until I blow this whistle!"
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: TRad on April 11, 2008, 12:57:55 PM
What a great discussion, for the most part.  This thread engendered so much interest in part because we no longer have a social consensus and that's a good thing.

Many posters here were adament that their prescription is the right way.  This seemed particularly true of those who defended traditional values.

The thing to realize, though, is that life rarely rolls out the way you think it will.  Mom might stay home for 10 years with the kids and find herself on the receiving end of divorce papers.  Mom might intend to work and end up with a kid who has special needs.  Dad might intend to work and get fired or disabled.  Husband and wife find that they can't have kids after all; thus rendering their arguments over a hyphenated last name into a tragic mockery.

I married young, took my (now ex) husband's name, had babies young and stayed home with them -- all the things that posters here are sooo sure make for a stable and solid home.  When I finally worked, I went into teaching (the most family friendly of professions).  NONE of these choices granted the guarantees that are assumed givens by some posts here.  Just a case in point....

Women and men are equal in dignity and value.  We all deserve the right to develop the fullness of our personalities.  How that is done is best navigated by individuals and their families in a highly individualistic way -- what works for one family may not for another.  We need professional options that allow ALL of us to have families too and experience the entire range of family life from diapers to baseball games.

That said.... I still use my ex-husbands last name as I have done for the past 21 years (Good Gawd I feel old typing that!  :o).  I will be changing back to my original name before law school.  My two kids (high school and middle schoolers) will, of course, keep the name we all used to have.  If I remarry again in say, 5 years would I change my name again? 

No. My point here is that life is tricky.  The simple answers that seem to fit in the hypothetical don't always fit in real life.  Be thoughtful.  Be flexible.  Be respectful.  Those are the best prescriptives that I can think of; the rest is just detail.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: BearlyLegal on April 11, 2008, 09:31:13 PM

Matriarchy and patriarchy are not two sides of the same coin.  Patriarchy subjugates non-males, reducing their power; matriarchy asserts that women have equal status and power, though they might have different gender roles from men.



Hmm...  I don't know if I agree.  I think this definition is a bit self-serving.  It's a little too rosy. 

I was thinking the same thing - In a matriarchy, by definition, women have more power than men.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: xdhbc on April 11, 2008, 09:54:48 PM

Matriarchy and patriarchy are not two sides of the same coin.  Patriarchy subjugates non-males, reducing their power; matriarchy asserts that women have equal status and power, though they might have different gender roles from men.


Hmm...  I don't know if I agree.  I think this definition is a bit self-serving.  It's a little too rosy. 

I was thinking the same thing - In a matriarchy, by definition, women have more power than men.

Perhaps what she meant was that in a society run primarily by men, women are subjugated, while in a society run primarily by women, men would have equal status as women.  I'm not saying that's what I think; I'm just suggesting it as a possibility for what MBW meant.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Astro on April 11, 2008, 10:28:46 PM

Matriarchy and patriarchy are not two sides of the same coin.  Patriarchy subjugates non-males, reducing their power; matriarchy asserts that women have equal status and power, though they might have different gender roles from men.


Hmm...  I don't know if I agree.  I think this definition is a bit self-serving.  It's a little too rosy. 

I was thinking the same thing - In a matriarchy, by definition, women have more power than men.

Perhaps what she meant was that in a society run primarily by men, women are subjugated, while in a society run primarily by women, men would have equal status as women.  I'm not saying that's what I think; I'm just suggesting it as a possibility for what MBW meant.

I'm pretty sure that's what she meant.  Which is why I said I think the definition is self-serving and a little too rosy.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: xdhbc on April 11, 2008, 10:39:23 PM
I'm pretty sure that's what she meant.  Which is why I said I think the definition is self-serving and a little too rosy.

Perhaps she can provide examples of matriarchies in which this was the case.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mbw on April 11, 2008, 10:42:52 PM

Matriarchy and patriarchy are not two sides of the same coin.  Patriarchy subjugates non-males, reducing their power; matriarchy asserts that women have equal status and power, though they might have different gender roles from men.


Hmm...  I don't know if I agree.  I think this definition is a bit self-serving.  It's a little too rosy. 

I was thinking the same thing - In a matriarchy, by definition, women have more power than men.

Perhaps what she meant was that in a society run primarily by men, women are subjugated, while in a society run primarily by women, men would have equal status as women.  I'm not saying that's what I think; I'm just suggesting it as a possibility for what MBW meant.

I'm pretty sure that's what she meant.  Which is why I said I think the definition is self-serving and a little too rosy.


Et tu, J?

Matriarchal Society: Definition and Theory
By Heide Goettner-Abendroth

Introduction:

The relationship between Modern Matriarchal Studies and the Gift Paradigm

There are important analogies between modern matriarchal studies and the gift paradigm.

The subject of matriarchal studies is the investigation and presentation of non-patriarchal societies of past and present. Even today there are enclaves of societies with matriarchal patterns in Asia, Africa, America and Oceania. None of these is a mere reversal of patriarchy where women rule -as it is often commonly believed -instead, they are all egalitarian societies, without exception. This means they do not know hierarchies, classes and the domination of one gender by the other. They are societies free of domination, but they still have their regulations. And this is the fact that makes them so attractive in any search for a new philosophy, to create a just society.


From http://www.gift-economy.com/athanor/athanor_005.html. That was a quick google.  I can provide a much more detailed bibliography if you'd like.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: xdhbc on April 11, 2008, 10:57:08 PM
I have heard that the organization of hierarchies is in and of itself a male-driven activity.  That's probably something of an overgeneralization, but still.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Ender Wiggin on April 12, 2008, 06:57:46 AM

Matriarchy and patriarchy are not two sides of the same coin.  Patriarchy subjugates non-males, reducing their power; matriarchy asserts that women have equal status and power, though they might have different gender roles from men.


Hmm...  I don't know if I agree.  I think this definition is a bit self-serving.  It's a little too rosy. 

I was thinking the same thing - In a matriarchy, by definition, women have more power than men.

Perhaps what she meant was that in a society run primarily by men, women are subjugated, while in a society run primarily by women, men would have equal status as women.  I'm not saying that's what I think; I'm just suggesting it as a possibility for what MBW meant.

I'm pretty sure that's what she meant.  Which is why I said I think the definition is self-serving and a little too rosy.


Et tu, J?

Matriarchal Society: Definition and Theory
By Heide Goettner-Abendroth

Introduction:

The relationship between Modern Matriarchal Studies and the Gift Paradigm

There are important analogies between modern matriarchal studies and the gift paradigm.

The subject of matriarchal studies is the investigation and presentation of non-patriarchal societies of past and present. Even today there are enclaves of societies with matriarchal patterns in Asia, Africa, America and Oceania. None of these is a mere reversal of patriarchy where women rule -as it is often commonly believed -instead, they are all egalitarian societies, without exception. This means they do not know hierarchies, classes and the domination of one gender by the other. They are societies free of domination, but they still have their regulations. And this is the fact that makes them so attractive in any search for a new philosophy, to create a just society.


From http://www.gift-economy.com/athanor/athanor_005.html. That was a quick google.  I can provide a much more detailed bibliography if you'd like.

Why would you even call an egalitarian society a matriarchy?  It seems to me that they are two different things. 


Main Entry:
    ma·tri·arch
Pronunciation:
    \ˈmā-trē-ˌärk\
Function:
    noun
Date:
    1606

: a woman who rules or dominates a family, group, or state; specifically : a mother who is head and ruler of her family and descendants




Main Entry:
    egal·i·tar·i·an·ism
Pronunciation:
    \-ē-ə-ˌni-zəm\
Function:
    noun
Date:
    1905

1 : a belief in human equality especially with respect to social, political, and economic rights and privileges 2 : a social philosophy advocating the removal of inequalities among people

www.m-w.com
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: xdhbc on April 12, 2008, 07:10:02 AM

Matriarchy and patriarchy are not two sides of the same coin.  Patriarchy subjugates non-males, reducing their power; matriarchy asserts that women have equal status and power, though they might have different gender roles from men.


Hmm...  I don't know if I agree.  I think this definition is a bit self-serving.  It's a little too rosy. 

I was thinking the same thing - In a matriarchy, by definition, women have more power than men.

Perhaps what she meant was that in a society run primarily by men, women are subjugated, while in a society run primarily by women, men would have equal status as women.  I'm not saying that's what I think; I'm just suggesting it as a possibility for what MBW meant.

I'm pretty sure that's what she meant.  Which is why I said I think the definition is self-serving and a little too rosy.


Et tu, J?

Matriarchal Society: Definition and Theory
By Heide Goettner-Abendroth

Introduction:

The relationship between Modern Matriarchal Studies and the Gift Paradigm

There are important analogies between modern matriarchal studies and the gift paradigm.

The subject of matriarchal studies is the investigation and presentation of non-patriarchal societies of past and present. Even today there are enclaves of societies with matriarchal patterns in Asia, Africa, America and Oceania. None of these is a mere reversal of patriarchy where women rule -as it is often commonly believed -instead, they are all egalitarian societies, without exception. This means they do not know hierarchies, classes and the domination of one gender by the other. They are societies free of domination, but they still have their regulations. And this is the fact that makes them so attractive in any search for a new philosophy, to create a just society.


From http://www.gift-economy.com/athanor/athanor_005.html. That was a quick google.  I can provide a much more detailed bibliography if you'd like.

Why would you even call an egalitarian society a matriarchy?  It seems to me that they are two different things. 


Main Entry:
    ma·tri·arch
Pronunciation:
    \ˈmā-trē-ˌärk\
Function:
    noun
Date:
    1606

: a woman who rules or dominates a family, group, or state; specifically : a mother who is head and ruler of her family and descendants




Main Entry:
    egal·i·tar·i·an·ism
Pronunciation:
    \-ē-ə-ˌni-zəm\
Function:
    noun
Date:
    1905

1 : a belief in human equality especially with respect to social, political, and economic rights and privileges 2 : a social philosophy advocating the removal of inequalities among people

www.m-w.com

Maybe because the society that's described by your definition of "matriarchy" does not actually exist?  It might be that certain societies were called matriarchies solely because of their lack of patriarchal organization, but that they were just "egalitarian" societies all along.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: mbw on April 12, 2008, 08:03:22 AM
^ (don't feel like quoting everything before coffee)

Bingo.  And because some societies, upon first glance, had features which made them outwardly look "matriarchal", such as being matrilineal and/or matrilocal, so they were automatically categorized as such. 
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Ender Wiggin on April 12, 2008, 10:21:19 AM
^ (don't feel like quoting everything before coffee)

Bingo.  And because some societies, upon first glance, had features which made them outwardly look "matriarchal", such as being matrilineal and/or matrilocal, so they were automatically categorized as such. 

Why would you continue to refer to them that way, if you know that's not what they were?  It's confusing and misleading.  I would think that, at least since the time it was decided that what you just said was true, this would be one of the first things that someone would clarify in a discussion about this issue (especially when dealing with people who would not have been expected to have previously given it much thought).

Edit:  I'm not trying to be a male private part.  I'm really curious. 
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Jolie Was Here on April 12, 2008, 11:18:57 AM
Wowza.  I just read the whole. damn. thread.  Y'all have covered it all without me, but I just wanted to share that in reading, I realized that I've never ever had a bonbon.  (Or a baby, for that matter.)  What have I been doing with my time?

<--- wails at the cold and lonely desperation of her empty life, finds solace on the internet.
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Ender Wiggin on April 12, 2008, 12:09:05 PM
Wowza.  I just read the whole. damn. thread.  Y'all have covered it all without me, but I just wanted to share that in reading, I realized that I've never ever had a bonbon.  (Or a baby, for that matter.)  What have I been doing with my time?

<--- wails at the cold and lonely desperation of her empty life, finds solace on the internet.

I hear bonbons are better, but I've never tried a baby with chocolate, so....
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 12, 2008, 12:09:29 PM
Wowza.  I just read the whole. damn. thread.  Y'all have covered it all without me, but I just wanted to share that in reading, I realized that I've never ever had a bonbon.  (Or a baby, for that matter.)  What have I been doing with my time?

<--- wails at the cold and lonely desperation of her empty life, finds solace on the internet.

not fulfilling your destiny as a woman, that's what you've been doing with your time  >:(

(hi!)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Majmun on April 12, 2008, 12:43:15 PM
Wowza.  I just read the whole. damn. thread.  Y'all have covered it all without me, but I just wanted to share that in reading, I realized that I've never ever had a bonbon.  (Or a baby, for that matter.)  What have I been doing with my time?

<--- wails at the cold and lonely desperation of her empty life, finds solace on the internet.

On first glance I read this as bonobo and thought "Wow, this thread took a turn for the worse."
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Majmun on April 12, 2008, 12:48:32 PM
Wowza.  I just read the whole. damn. thread.  Y'all have covered it all without me, but I just wanted to share that in reading, I realized that I've never ever had a bonbon.  (Or a baby, for that matter.)  What have I been doing with my time?

<--- wails at the cold and lonely desperation of her empty life, finds solace on the internet.

On first glance I read this as bonobo and thought "Wow, this thread took a turn for the worse."

Uh, it took you until this point in the conversation to come to that conclusion?

For the record, in terms of vileness   

Bestiality>>>>>>internet sexism arguments
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Jolie Was Here on April 12, 2008, 12:58:25 PM
Well, I mean sure.  If you want to go there.  I've never had a bonobo either.

<-- loves monkeys, but doesn't LOVE them. 
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Jolie Was Here on April 12, 2008, 01:16:16 PM
<--- has had a bonobo

<--- liked it

<--- Patient Zero (too far?)

You're too young, dollface.  :D
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Ender Wiggin on April 12, 2008, 01:46:23 PM
<--- has had a bonobo

<--- liked it

<--- Patient Zero (too far?)

She looks a little disappointed.

(http://www.petterik.nl/bonobo.jpg)
Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on April 12, 2008, 03:19:52 PM

she looks wistful to me

:D

Title: Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
Post by: BearlyLegal on April 12, 2008, 05:42:26 PM
<--- has had a bonobo

<--- liked it

<--- Patient Zero (too far?)
LMAO :D