Law School Discussion

Off-Topic Area => General Off-Topic Board => Topic started by: jack24 on March 20, 2008, 10:04:37 AM

Title: I HOPE Racism will fade away if I do my part
Post by: jack24 on March 20, 2008, 10:04:37 AM
I come from an all white family.  My grandparents are far less racist than their parents were, my parents have some struggles with race, but they try hard not to discriminate.  My siblings and I aren't really racist at all, but we do notice race and racial tension. I believe that my children will not be racist at all.  Skin color will become more like hair color, and people won't make any race based judgements.
It seems (based on the media) that many black churches don't want to let their patrons let go of racism.  I don't think we should forget about slavery or the horrible persecution that my ancestors brought upon the slaves.  I don't think we should forget about the sacrifices of those great individuals that brought change to America.  However, we shouldn't assume that our children will be racist.
Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: jack24 on March 20, 2008, 10:25:30 AM
How do I feel about puppies?  Oh I get what you mean.
I love puppies and sunshine and flowers! Oh goodness gracious, just call me Dorothy! Water and Red Ruby Slippers will solve all my problems!

Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: RTP2008 on March 20, 2008, 10:28:25 AM
Racism affects different races differently.  Just because you and your parents choose to not care about race as much as those before you doesn't mean that other races have the same privilege.  Those affected most by racism aren't presented with the choice of toning down racism.  I'm glad that there are optimistic people like you and your future children, but it seems like (from your post) that you don't get it.  That's ok though.  The fact of the matter is, racism has been around forever.  There are those of us that won't just let it fade away waiting for every White person to take your path.
Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: jack24 on March 20, 2008, 10:34:17 AM
Racism affects different races differently.  Just because you and your parents choose to not care about race as much as those before you doesn't mean that other races have the same privilege.  Those affected most by racism aren't presented with the choice of toning down racism.  I'm glad that there are optimistic people like you and your future children, but it seems like (from your post) that you don't get it.  That's ok though.  The fact of the matter is, racism has been around forever.  There are those of us that won't just let it fade away waiting for every White person to take your path.

I do admit that I'm a bit naive about it.  I'm not from a big city, so maybe I'll learn more when I move east for law school.  I just don't like the idea of black people thinking that all whites are racist.  If I'm successful as a lawyer, and I have a happy suburban family, I hope that people don't just assume that my kids are "rich white racists". They won't be.
Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: familyman on March 20, 2008, 10:36:39 AM
RTP - During college a white friend of mine was walking back from the library, and was jumped by two black guys and called a white mother______ and other racial slurs. A month later, I walked by campus and witnessed a rally on Columbus Day. Two black guys held fists in the air and yelled "black power!. Later that year, walking back from a party minding my own business with my sister I was confronted by three black guys and called a white____ and threatened. In high school, I was in line at a fast food restaurant and a black guy walked up behind me and out of nowhere threatened to kick my ass and called me a white mother____. Unfortunately, RTP, it is not just whites who need to choose to take another path. Recent statements by the good reverand are proof that there are people on both sides of this issue who need to choose a new path. The real question is what we need to do to address past wrongs and move forward. The city I grew up in, like many cities, is divided by a river and by race - one half is middle class white and the other poor black. Looking back, I don't remember any overt racism on the part of any white friends or relatives, but what I do recall is a total lack of engagement with that 'other' side of town. It is as if as a country, we are content to just have the 'other' side of town exist, what used to be called the 'colored district', so long as we don't have to go there. The solution is probably twofold. The rest of America needs to engage with these areas, teach the lessons of success and try to change the culture into one of entrepreneurship, hope and success. Second, the people in these areas need to empower themselves and recognize that elements of their culture itself are self defeating. Looking to recent Hispanic immigrants, Koreans, Chinese etc. who have come here with nothing and done very well, we can find many examples to follow.   
Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: RTP2008 on March 20, 2008, 10:43:33 AM
Great point.  Though it is neither the norm nor is it a adequate response to my post (unless you took it out of context).  I only wanted to point out the fact that racism will not fade away by pretending that race doesn't exist. 

Are there racist blacks who make life difficult for whites?  Yes, I totally agree.

Are there more whites out there who make life difficult for non-whites, than vice versa? How can you argue otherwise.

Racism is a problem for all races.  Some races have to live a entire life under the shadow of racism, while others (black, white, other) are privileged enough to only have to live under it in isolated moments.
Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: jack24 on March 20, 2008, 10:55:24 AM
Racism is a problem for all races.  Some races have to live a entire life under the shadow of racism, while others (black, white, other) are privileged enough to only have to live under it in isolated moments.

So what should I do as a parent?  I'm planning on teaching them real history, and I'm planning on telling them that the majority of the people they meet will not be racist.  I am planning on telling my children that Behavior, not race or class, should be used to choose their friends.  Am I wrong to do that?
Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: RTP2008 on March 20, 2008, 11:02:13 AM
I hope not.  That's what I was taught and that's what I plan on passing along. 

I have two problems with the White approach to racism.  The majority of the White race isn't racist (I sincerly hope).  But the majority does seem to fall into two categories.  The one so overridden with White guilt that they are overly self conscious on their treatment of race. Then there are those who for certain reasons (guilt, ignorance, apathy) feel that racism is a problem that doesn't exist because it doesn't exist in a certain context within their lives.

Most Whites don't feel racism the way that other races do and that could put a lot of pressure on someone like you to do what is right by other races.  Just pay the same respect to all people that you'd want paid unto you.  Can't do much better than that.  If you try and do too much more than that, then you'll only make those who want Whites to be punished for history happy and that's not right.
Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: familyman on March 20, 2008, 11:07:31 AM
RTP - I agree with you. I think one of the greatest challenges we face moving forward is dealing with the structural remnants of racism that still exist that many people refuse to recognize, and also changing the culture in many of these areas to one of empowerment. I just can't reconcile the fact that half of my hometown - and many on this country - is black and extremely poor by saying that blacks there just have to get up and work, or that their situation is entirely their fault. From my experience, overt racism ended with my grandparents. My grandparents were overtly racist. My parents lack a comfort level with race, but are not racist. Our generation was summerized well by Obama the other day. Sure, there are a few out there who are just plain racist. Then there are the rest of us - whites in this example - who don't even like to talk about race bacause we are labeled racist for even expressing certain points of view. I feel that I have legitimate concerns, but I also realize that they are easily misconstrued so I avoid the topic. It is also clear thar Reverand Wright's comments and his huge following are there for a reason, and much of that anger is historical and legitimate.
Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: RTP2008 on March 20, 2008, 11:11:14 AM
Very very true.
Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: Pop Up Video on March 20, 2008, 11:12:01 AM
Every poster in this thread is the actually the OP under different monikers.
Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: RTP2008 on March 20, 2008, 11:15:05 AM
I do feel that the inherency issues of institutional racism will only get worse as the overt forms of racism fade away.  I don't want to end up in an America that says, "Great, we have a Black President, a lady Vice President and the richest woman in the world is Oprah.  We are done with racism."  All the while there are still poor schools or immigrants who aren't privi to a better life do to the color of their skin and the language that they speak.  
Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: Pop Up Video on March 20, 2008, 11:16:56 AM
Every poster except Magic.
Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: RTP2008 on March 20, 2008, 11:17:31 AM
Every poster in this thread is the actually the OP under different monikers.

a sick rendition of the Identy movie?
Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: familyman on March 20, 2008, 11:18:43 AM
We are already seeing this with Obama. All white states voted for him, so racism must be dead and the playing field is level!
Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: jack24 on March 20, 2008, 11:20:06 AM
Every poster in this thread is the actually the OP under different monikers.

I guess I'm just the puppy loving moniker that pretends racism doesn't exist because I'm too scared/lazy to deal with it.
Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: Papa Bear on March 20, 2008, 04:35:00 PM
Here's some interesting reading about race and the law. It covers some theory then applies it:

http://www.law.duke.edu/shell/cite.pl?57+Duke+L.+J.+345

While overt racism may now be less frequent, our tendency to differentiate then generalize from those differences still has important and rather dramatic effects on society. It seems doubtful to me that it will die out by us ignoring it.
Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: Majmun on March 21, 2008, 04:57:34 AM
My grandparents are far less racist than their parents were

according to whom?

Their butler.
Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: jack24 on March 21, 2008, 08:35:04 AM
My grandparents are far less racist than their parents were

according to whom?

According to my grandparents.  I guess it's possible they weren't less racist, but they definitely weren't as vocal about their racism.

My children are going to grow up with black cousins.  They are going to have access to television and the internet where there will be a mixture of faces.  They will have many different races represented in their schools. 
Everyone thinks I'm naive, but do you honestly believe that our children and grandchildren will be as racist as our parents?
The way we end racism is by choosing not to repeat the mistakes of those who came before us.
Unless, of course, you believe that racism is a natural human tendency.
Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: Papa Bear on March 21, 2008, 09:35:12 AM
The problem is that racism, or at least prejudicial thinking, is a natural human tendency.  Given the number of stimuli that the average human must face every day, the mind automatically begins to form stereotypes and prejudices about different things simply in order to comprehend the world quickly enough.

I agree with everything Hammerstein says, but the first paragraph here reminded me of a study that came out a few years back. I pulled this from a quick google search, so it's not the most informative article out there:

Quote
Baby face: Infants know who you are (http://archives.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/parenting/05/16/baby.brains/index.html)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Because of the way human brains develop, 6-month-old babies are better at recognizing certain faces than 9-month-old infants, a new study says.

Even more surprising, those 6-month-olds are also better than adults at some face recognition, it contends.

But there's a catch: It is non-human faces that the 6-month-olds excel at recognizing.

In a study detailed in Science magazine, researchers discovered that the 6-month-olds had no problem distinguishing between individual humans or between individual monkeys. But just three months later, at 9 months of age, while babies could still tell the difference between human faces, they couldn't tell one monkey from another.

"Early in development, the brain is open to any face," said Charles Nelson, a child psychologist at the University of Minnesota. But apparently sometime between 6 and 9 months of age, he said, babies' brains "key in" on the fact that human faces are the ones they need to pay attention to.

As people get older, they get better and better at detecting the subtle differences in the faces they see a lot: human faces, Nelson said. But at the same time, they lose the ability to detect differences in things they don't see a lot.

It's a phenomenon called "cognitive narrowing."

This phenomenon provides an interesting lens through which to view some of the more irrational aspects of human sociology, both in terms of cognitive bias and in perpetuating stereotypes.
Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: jack24 on March 21, 2008, 09:38:42 AM
That's a really interesting study, but I believe that a lot of that can be reveresed.
I lived in China for a few years. At first I had a terrible time distinguishing features, but over time people looked more and more unique. 

Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: Papa Bear on March 21, 2008, 09:45:46 AM
That's a really interesting study, but I believe that a lot of that can be reveresed.
I lived in China for a few years. At first I had a terrible time distinguishing features, but over time people looked more and more unique. 

Sure, but it takes some degree of cognitive effort, which is different than the "ignore it and it will go away" approach you seemed to earlier advocate.
Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: The Knight on March 21, 2008, 09:58:31 AM
Racism affects different races differently.  Just because you and your parents choose to not care about race as much as those before you doesn't mean that other races have the same privilege.  Those affected most by racism aren't presented with the choice of toning down racism.  I'm glad that there are optimistic people like you and your future children, but it seems like (from your post) that you don't get it.  That's ok though.  The fact of the matter is, racism has been around forever.  There are those of us that won't just let it fade away waiting for every White person to take your path.

I disagree.  When I am discriminated against, I choose to not let it negatively affect me.  I HAVE a choice, and you saying I don't is offensive
Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: jack24 on March 21, 2008, 11:13:09 AM
Sure, but it takes some degree of cognitive effort, which is different than the "ignore it and it will go away" approach you seemed to earlier advocate.
[/quote]

I'm not saying "ignore it and it will go away"
I'm saying that my children will probably not be influenced by race, so why do black churches have to insist on shoving "the white man is out to get you" down the throat of their patrons?
Do you think that makes blacks less racist?  no way.
Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: jack24 on March 21, 2008, 11:24:51 AM
Okay, I'm not going to read this thread, because it would just piss me off.  But the title of the thread is so unbelievably wrongheaded that I have to weigh in:  OP, you're a moron.  Big time.

I'm not even going to explain why, that's how stupid I think you are.  Read a book, jackass.

Thanks for that.  I'm a moron because I believe my children won't be racist.  I guess I'll go find a book called "Don't be a moron, jackass!"  That should help.
Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: jack24 on March 21, 2008, 11:31:50 AM
something about baseless assumptions.

I'm confused.  Are you saying I should read a book about baseless assumptions?
Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: jack24 on March 21, 2008, 11:44:18 AM
And you know there is a difference between culture and race right?

People will always prefer the culture they are comfortable with, but that doesn't mean they will automatically judge people based on the color of their skin.  My whole point is that my children will evaluate others based on behavior.  

So what would you suggest I do?  
Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: jack24 on March 21, 2008, 11:53:35 AM
"As they say on XO, SELFPWNED!  You should wikipedia this term: "Sociology."  Moron.

What do I suggest you do?  I don't know.  Quit starting threads about wrong poo?

And listen, truthfully, I think that's cute about your kids.  I hope the same for mine."
[/quote]

Okay, I've already admitted that I might be naive and that I'm apparently no expert on the subject of race.  I also admit that I don't know anything about sociology.  I'm a moron and that's really too bad.

When I lived in China I didn't like their food, music, or holidays.  I liked my culture a lot more than I liked thiers. So am I racist after all?
Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: jack24 on March 21, 2008, 11:57:39 AM
I guess we should change the title of the thread.

Any suggestions?
How about

"You can't judge a book by it's cover or a man by his skin, but it's okay to judge a thread by it's title"

"You're racist, you just don't know it"

"I know more about your family than you do"

"Quit starting threads about wrong poo"

Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: Papa Bear on March 21, 2008, 12:12:27 PM
I'm not saying "ignore it and it will go away"
I'm saying that my children will probably not be influenced by race, so why do black churches have to insist on shoving "the white man is out to get you" down the throat of their patrons?
Do you think that makes blacks less racist?  no way.

I guess I don't fully understand why you think your children will not be influenced by race. Take my children for instance, all of them white. They are not subject to the same societal pressures and prejudices as, say, a Pakistani person, a Chinese person, or an African American person. I can't deny, nor can they, that their upbringing, opportunities, and life trajectories aren influenced to some degree by their race. It's not bad or embarrassing to admit that. In fact, it's probably better. To think otherwise is essentially to deny that culture, history and interracial dynamics have (or should have) any lasting effect, which is patently false and really just a tenuous rationalization for prescribing a certain sphere of acceptable behavior which excludes those on the "other side" of culture, history, and interracial dynamics.

If your children are any less racist than you, then it's because society as a whole progresses in understanding and dealing with racial prejudice, both explicit and implicit. If we don't recognize it's a problem, we have no reason to progress. Who then will help us recognize it's a problem? Are white people going to effectively advocate for the people they oppress? Not most of them.

I realize Rev. Wright wasn't advocating so much; instead his sermon was a matter of a black man preaching to mostly black people about the causes and effects of racism. You're suggesting black people not do such things. I can think of only three ways to rationalize this normative decision. First, you might think people should just let bygones be bygones, but you've specifically renounced this approach by saying we should learn from our past. Second, you might think there's anything to be gained from commiseration with those who best understand how they feel. But this is something all people do when they're bothered by things. Take, for instance, law students. I hear 1Ls complaining just about every other day in the hallway about how they hate law school, they have a problem with some professor or they don't want to do their legal writing. Even if you think there's no rational benefit to such commiseration, that's how people work, and demanding otherwise denies their human nature. Last, and possibly more likely, you might deny they currently face any of the racial prejudices they claim. If that's your argument then I suggest you make it and we'll see how things go.
Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: RTP2008 on March 21, 2008, 12:57:08 PM
Racism affects different races differently.  Just because you and your parents choose to not care about race as much as those before you doesn't mean that other races have the same privilege.  Those affected most by racism aren't presented with the choice of toning down racism.  I'm glad that there are optimistic people like you and your future children, but it seems like (from your post) that you don't get it.  That's ok though.  The fact of the matter is, racism has been around forever.  There are those of us that won't just let it fade away waiting for every White person to take your path.

I disagree.  When I am discriminated against, I choose to not let it negatively affect me.  I HAVE a choice, and you saying I don't is offensive


You seem to get offended easily especially since I never referred to you. Some people don't have a choice but while you and others like you are marching in the "Racism isn't so bad parade" there are others who don't have a choice. How many people choose to learn in poor schools, get down tracked in the good ones, experience extra difficulties in jon searching and voting?  How many people choose to fit the description, qualify for random checks in the airport, get shot by mexicans in LA or beat up by blacks in Atlanta, or mutilated in darfur for being different. Racism affects those without a choice more than anyone else. Don't discount any of it because you choose to not see anyone elses problems as negatively affecting you.

Learn to read, keep an open mind, don't be so sensitive and enjoy the parade. Hopefully the rest f the world can join you one day.
Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: dashrashi on March 21, 2008, 01:06:53 PM
Reezy's got it right on institutional racism, which is the crux of why the OP is wrong. DISMANTLING is needed. Passivity is not enough; we'll need activity if we hope to actually solve racism, and not just the most outward manifestations of it.
Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: jack24 on March 21, 2008, 01:28:36 PM
I didn't know I had a profanity filter turned on.  I wonder what people are really saying to me.
I just want to thank everyone for your comments.

Bearly Legal:
You made a lot of good points. I'm mostly examining this in the context of friendship.  I doubt my children will have any reason to choose their friends based on skin color.  If I used skin color to choose my friends then I wasn't aware of it. 

Reezy:
You're pretty funny.  I'm sorry you think I'm a moron. Now stop being a jackass.  Tell me what you think I should do better.

Dashrashi:
What do you mean by "Dismantling"? 

Everyone Else:
I am speaking about this issue from my point of view.  Apparently nobody thinks I know what I'm talking about.  Does everyone out there really disagree with me?  Don't minorities now have equal rights as far as the law is concerned?  What else can we do other than teach the next generation that all men are truly created equal?




Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: dashrashi on March 21, 2008, 01:36:32 PM
I didn't know I had a profanity filter turned on.  I wonder what people are really saying to me.
I just want to thank everyone for your comments.

Bearly Legal:
You made a lot of good points. I'm mostly examining this in the context of friendship.  I doubt my children will have any reason to choose their friends based on skin color.  If I used skin color to choose my friends then I wasn't aware of it. 

Reezy:
You're pretty funny.  I'm sorry you think I'm a moron. Now stop being a jackass.  Tell me what you think I should do better.

Dashrashi:
What do you mean by "Dismantling"? 

Everyone Else:
I am speaking about this issue from my point of view.  Apparently nobody thinks I know what I'm talking about.  Does everyone out there really disagree with me?  Don't minorities now have equal rights as far as the law is concerned?  What else can we do other than teach the next generation that all men are truly created equal?






"Equal rights are far as the law is concerned"--well, sort of. But if you're significantly more likely to get a death sentence if you're black and killed a white person than if you're black and killed a black person, or white and killed a white person, or white and killed a white person...I'd say at best the answer is going to be "yes and no." And I think that part of the dismantling of that trend has to be talking about it openly, owning it as our problem, analyzing it, and taking steps to erase the possibility of it ever happening again. A very active process, and not one we can hope time will accomplish on its own.
Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: jack24 on March 21, 2008, 01:40:18 PM

...I think that part of the dismantling of that trend has to be talking about it openly, owning it as our problem, analyzing it, and taking steps to erase the possibility of it ever happening again. A very active process, and not one we can hope time will accomplish on its own.
[/quote]

I'm not saying that time will heal all wounds.  I think that actively teaching our children and the next generation to be tolerant, just and wise is a VERY effective way of fighting racism, don't you?
Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: dashrashi on March 21, 2008, 01:45:37 PM

...I think that part of the dismantling of that trend has to be talking about it openly, owning it as our problem, analyzing it, and taking steps to erase the possibility of it ever happening again. A very active process, and not one we can hope time will accomplish on its own.

I'm not saying that time will heal all wounds.  I think that actively teaching our children and the next generation to be tolerant, just and wise is a VERY effective way of fighting racism, don't you?

[/quote]

No one on these juries hold explicit racist attitudes; otherwise they'd have been struck by any competent lawyer. But this is happening anyway. So I don't think this is something we can deal with via changing individual attitudes. We have something in our system, embedded there, apparently, in the way we do things, that is making this outcome happen. Which is racist, and unacceptable. So I think that we need to reexamine the process, because right now, it's not looking like equal rights under the law.
Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: jack24 on March 21, 2008, 02:07:51 PM
Dashrashi:  if what you say is true then we do need to examine the process and fix it. 

But nomatter how you look at it, people shouldn't think I'm stupid just because I believe that my children will be better than I am.

I think we all need to remember that EVERYONE has to do their part.  I've identified that at this time in my life I need to focus on raising my kids to be good people.  That doesn't mean that I wont do what's right if I get the opportunity to defend victims or right the wrongs of society.  Don't mistake my optimism for indifference, and don't mistake my hope for ignorance.



Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: dashrashi on March 21, 2008, 02:19:28 PM
Dashrashi:  if what you say is true then we do need to examine the process and fix it. 

But nomatter how you look at it, people shouldn't think I'm stupid just because I believe that my children will be better than I am.

I think we all need to remember that EVERYONE has to do their part.  I've identified that at this time in my life I need to focus on raising my kids to be good people.  That doesn't mean that I wont do what's right if I get the opportunity to defend victims or right the wrongs of society.  Don't mistake my optimism for indifference, and don't mistake my hope for ignorance.





I think what people are generally saying is that "examining the process and fixing it" might be the exact opposite of "letting racism fade away." Believing that your kids will be less racist is, ultimately, neither here nor there, but people are also disagreeing with your evidence for believing that generations are naturally less racist than those who came before, which seemed to be the gist of what you were saying.
Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: jack24 on March 21, 2008, 02:27:57 PM
I think what people are generally saying is that "examining the process and fixing it" might be the exact opposite of "letting racism fade away." Believing that your kids will be less racist is, ultimately, neither here nor there, but people are also disagreeing with your evidence for believing that generations are naturally less racist than those who came before, which seemed to be the gist of what you were saying.

I don't think generations are naturally less racist, but I do think that society is causing less racism than it was before. And at least people are being more respectful even if they harbor ill feelings for a particular race. 

Do you have any evidence to suggest that people are becoming more racist?





Title: Re: Racism will fade away if we'll let it.
Post by: dashrashi on March 21, 2008, 02:36:57 PM
I think what people are generally saying is that "examining the process and fixing it" might be the exact opposite of "letting racism fade away." Believing that your kids will be less racist is, ultimately, neither here nor there, but people are also disagreeing with your evidence for believing that generations are naturally less racist than those who came before, which seemed to be the gist of what you were saying.

I don't think generations are naturally less racist, but I do think that society is causing less racism than it was before. And at least people are being more respectful even if they harbor ill feelings for a particular race. 

Do you have any evidence to suggest that people are becoming more racist?







I think undercover racism is becoming more prevalent, actually. Anti-affirmative-action stuff and all the rest of the backlash could easily be construed as society (esp. in terms of the system) actually being more intractably racist than it was in 1973, say. Perhaps it's even more insidious now that people can dispute that it's racist. Perhaps.

All I'm saying is that if you don't have any evidence for your position that "people are less racist" beyond your own intuitions, then it's irresponsible to suggest that racism will go away as a problem as a matter of time and erosion, especially what with the selective way you're defining "people are less racist" and how little that has to do with so much of America's race problem. 
Title: Re: I HOPE Racism will fade away if I do my part
Post by: jack24 on March 21, 2008, 02:58:01 PM
Fine, you win... I guess society is more racist, I mean goodness... If affirmative action existed in the 1920's people would have accepted it with open arms!  Tiger woods must have magically hypnotized people, White people don't REALLY like to watch him golf.  And we must be racist! I guess the only reason Obama is getting the majority is because he's got a white grandmother. It couldn't be because our country is ready to choose based on qualifications and not skin tone.
You got me... you're brilliant!
Title: Re: I HOPE Racism will fade away if I do my part
Post by: dashrashi on March 21, 2008, 03:20:13 PM
Fine, you win... I guess society is more racist, I mean goodness... If affirmative action existed in the 1920's people would have accepted it with open arms!  Tiger woods must have magically hypnotized people, White people don't REALLY like to watch him golf.  And we must be racist! I guess the only reason Obama is getting the majority is because he's got a white grandmother. It couldn't be because our country is ready to choose based on qualifications and not skin tone.
You got me... you're brilliant!

I think it's clear now that you're being excessively narrow in how you define "racist." Not to mention conflating eras--now it's the 20s we're talking about?

I seriously don't think that Tiger Woods can be held up as an example of how far we've come on race when the death penalty is still so disproportionately applied as I described above. And I think that to persist in doing so, when it's been explicitly addressed that institutional and systematic racism are much more of an issue than people's purported external attitudes, borders on the disingenuous. For what it's worth.
Title: Re: I HOPE Racism will fade away if I do my part
Post by: jack24 on March 21, 2008, 03:26:56 PM
I already told you that I aggree we need to fix the problem with the death penalty.

I'm talking about society as a whole, not just the justice system.  The best way for me to measure how society thinks is by how they spend their money and what news they are most interested in.

Obama, Oprah, and Tiger are 3 very strong examples of people who most likely wouldn't have been able to succeed in their efforts if this were the 1970s.  
Have we acheived true equality? Maybe not.  But I believe that there are more opportunities for minorities than there were in the 1970s.

I define racism as a belief that one race should have more rights and opportunities than another.  
Title: Re: I HOPE Racism will fade away if I do my part
Post by: jack24 on March 21, 2008, 03:43:14 PM
Okay, I'm admitting that my defenition is too Narrow/Incomplete, but my definition isn't wrong.
I'll try to do what I can.  None of you have tried to answer my question though.
What should I do?  What can an individual do to help?

I have one partial solution and you basically mocked it.  

We need to strengthen the family and
strenghten the educational system.

Go ahead and mock that too.
Title: Re: I HOPE Racism will fade away if I do my part
Post by: dashrashi on March 21, 2008, 03:47:49 PM
I already told you that I aggree we need to fix the problem with the death penalty.

I'm talking about society as a whole, not just the justice system.  The best way for me to measure how society thinks is by how they spend their money and what news they are most interested in.

Obama, Oprah, and Tiger are 3 very strong examples of people who most likely wouldn't have been able to succeed in their efforts if this were the 1970s. 
Have we acheived true equality? Maybe not.  But I believe that there are more opportunities for minorities than there were in the 1970s.

I define racism as a belief that one race should have more rights and opportunities than another. 


The bolded strikes me as idiosyncratic and decidedly not universal. Sounds to me like you're picking your methods based on what results you'd like to see. Many other ways of measuring "how society thinks"--surveys, what they do in the jury box, etc, etc, ad nauseum. Your way of measuring is decidedly not the way, and I hope that you can see that. I'm trying to remain civil, but I really am starting to get the sense that you're cognitively invested in not seeing the forest for the trees.
Title: Re: I HOPE Racism will fade away if I do my part
Post by: dashrashi on March 21, 2008, 03:51:45 PM
Okay, I'm admitting that my defenition is too Narrow/Incomplete, but my definition isn't wrong.
I'll try to do what I can.  None of you have tried to answer my question though.
What should I do?  What can an individual do to help?

I have one partial solution and you basically mocked it. 

We need to strengthen the family and
strenghten the educational system.

Go ahead and mock that too.

People are objecting to the fact that what you're now calling a "partial" solution you initially presented as a total solution. Which, forgive my language, is horseshit to a very high degree. Sure, people should "teach" their kids to be "less" "racist." But if one really wants to fix the problem, one can do many more things, including but not limited to dedicating one's career to exposing and working to reverse institutional racism. And it is my belief (shared by many others) that simply "teaching" our kids to be "less" "racist" will never be enough to fix America's race problem. And your initial saying that it would be enough was, to be generous, facile and short-sighted.
Title: Re: I HOPE Racism will fade away if I do my part
Post by: jack24 on March 21, 2008, 04:02:28 PM
Reply to Dash:

I know you haven't read the whole thread, so you probably haven't seen that i've admitted multiple times that I'm naive because I live in a community that really doesn't send anybody to death row.
I'm open minded, and I changed my opinion early on in the discussion.  I understand why you didn't want to read all 7 pages, because you're probably busy being smarter than everyone else.

You think i'm stubborn and stupid because I'm unwilling to see the forest through the trees.  I sort of care what you think, so I'll do my best to explain.

I believe in taking on challenges that are in front of me, and at this moment in my life, I'm focused on raising my children.  As a result, I see their purity and their goodness and I have a hard time believing that, given societies ongoing evolution, children will harbor the same ill will toward other races.

I think we are less racist than we were 30 years ago.  I don't really care if you aggree.
I think the most important thing I can ever do is to be a good father.

Thanks for being civil.  I wouldn't want you to be uncivil toward someone you don't know anything about.  
Title: Re: I HOPE Racism will fade away if I do my part
Post by: dashrashi on March 21, 2008, 04:11:24 PM
Reply to Dash:

I know you haven't read the whole thread, so you probably haven't seen that i've admitted multiple times that I'm naive because I live in a community that really doesn't send anybody to death row.
I'm open minded, and I changed my opinion early on in the discussion.  I understand why you didn't want to read all 7 pages, because you're probably busy being smarter than everyone else.

You think i'm stubborn and stupid because I'm unwilling to see the forest through the trees.  I sort of care what you think, so I'll do my best to explain.

I believe in taking on challenges that are in front of me, and at this moment in my life, I'm focused on raising my children.  As a result, I see their purity and their goodness and I have a hard time believing that, given societies ongoing evolution, children will harbor the same ill will toward other races.

I think we are less racist than we were 30 years ago.  I don't really care if you aggree.
I think the most important thing I can ever do is to be a good father.

Thanks for being civil.  I wouldn't want you to be uncivil toward someone you don't know anything about. 

I read the whole thread. But thanks for the "smarter than everyone else" thing. I'll agree that I certainly am smart enough to recognize an insult when I see one! So...probably I'll start behaving true to form and tell you to shove your snide little remarks in the proverbially appropriate place for them. Goodness knows I wouldn't want to confuse the regulars.
Title: Re: I HOPE Racism will fade away if I do my part
Post by: Majmun on March 21, 2008, 04:18:06 PM
But how do you feel about puppies?

They taste like chicken.
Title: Re: I HOPE Racism will fade away if I do my part
Post by: jack24 on March 21, 2008, 04:24:11 PM
I read the whole thread. But thanks for the "smarter than everyone else" thing. I'll agree that I certainly am smart enough to recognize an insult when I see one! So...probably I'll start behaving true to form and tell you to shove your snide little remarks in the proverbially appropriate place for them. Goodness knows I wouldn't want to confuse the regulars.

Apparently I'm too full of crap to fit any more in my proverbially appropriate place.

I guess I have too much faith in the goodness of people.  Maybe I should choose a different profession?  I guess I just believe that family holds the key to solving some of the worlds worst problems.  Good mothers and good fathers working together can make a big difference, and apparently many of you believe that I'm full of (Insert preferred expletive)  I guess it's naive to believe that people are less racist when they are raised in a home with a responsible mother and father.
I guess it's naive to believe that as people are less racist, that society will become less racist.
I'm just a dreamer!  but I'm not the only one.

It's been so much fun to have this discussion with all of you. I'm not generally regarded as a naive idiot, and I feel like this has been good preparation for the future.
Thank you for your opinions
Title: Re: I HOPE Racism will fade away if I do my part
Post by: dashrashi on March 21, 2008, 04:28:21 PM
I think we are less racist than we were 30 years ago.  I don't really care if you aggree.

it's good to not care about whether or not random people on the internet agree with you.  it indicates a degree of normality.

<---disagrees about level of racism.

I read the whole thread. But thanks for the "smarter than everyone else" thing. I'll agree that I certainly am smart enough to recognize an insult when I see one! So...probably I'll start behaving true to form and tell you to shove your snide little remarks in the proverbially appropriate place for them. Goodness knows I wouldn't want to confuse the regulars.

thanks for that.  i was getting a little thrown off.

Always a pleasure, never a pain. (I admit it, it was for you specifically. And CACougar. But mostly you.)
Title: Re: I HOPE Racism will fade away if I do my part
Post by: BearlyLegal on March 21, 2008, 04:36:50 PM
Wait, people really think the world has gotten more racist than 30 years ago?  ???

The rest of this I could go with, but that last part I really have to doubt. Sure, the Civil rights movement was in full swing in 1978, and there was more support for things like AA; but the reason AA is being undercut is because so many middle class blacks are getting into good schools now. 30 years ago, there was no such thing as a middle class black person.

Obama is doing phenomenally well. 30 years ago, his campaign wouldn't have even gotten off the ground.

I think the reality is somewhere in between. Racism exists, and it will probably never fully go away - but things are getting better.
Title: Re: I HOPE Racism will fade away if I do my part
Post by: dashrashi on March 21, 2008, 04:38:09 PM
i don't even know what's sarcastic and what's not anymore.

Keepin you on your toeses!
Title: Re: I HOPE Racism will fade away if I do my part
Post by: Papa Bear on March 21, 2008, 06:29:03 PM
Wait, people really think the world has gotten more racist than 30 years ago?  ???

Some things are better, some things haven't changed, others are now worse. The biggest change is that what's left of racism is sort of underground; it's systemic and unconscious, making it easier to deny. It's there if you look for it, though. Take for instance the punditry fretting over Obama calling his mom a "typical white woman," or Bill O'Reilly's comment about Sylvia's, that he "couldn't get over the fact that there was no difference between Sylvia's Restaurant and any other restaurant in New York City. I mean, it was exactly the same, even though it's run by blacks, primarily black patronship." Why would that be surprising to him? Because he expects less.

I usually don't target Bill O'Reilly because it's like shooting at the side of a barn, but in this case it was the perfect quote to demonstrate what I'm talking about. He doesn't think it's racist, and several other people don't think it's racist, and it's true that it's not really overt racism. There are very egalitarian, very socially conscious individuals who are very unlike Bill O'Reilly in their politics, yet still express similar sentiments.
Title: Re: I HOPE Racism will fade away if I do my part
Post by: Susan B. Anthony on March 21, 2008, 06:38:01 PM

I define racism as a belief that one race should have more rights and opportunities than another. 


I define a refrigerator as a thing in a house.

:D :D :D :D :D

Well done.
Title: Re: I HOPE Racism will fade away if I do my part
Post by: BearlyLegal on March 21, 2008, 06:39:56 PM
Wait, people really think the world has gotten more racist than 30 years ago?  ???

Some things are better, some things haven't changed, others are now worse. The biggest change is that what's left of racism is sort of underground; it's systemic and unconscious, making it easier to deny. It's there if you look for it, though. Take for instance the punditry fretting over Obama calling his mom a "typical white woman," or Bill O'Reilly's comment about Sylvia's, that he "couldn't get over the fact that there was no difference between Sylvia's Restaurant and any other restaurant in New York City. I mean, it was exactly the same, even though it's run by blacks, primarily black patronship." Why would that be surprising to him? Because he expects less.

I usually don't target Bill O'Reilly because it's like shooting at the side of a barn, but in this case it was the perfect quote to demonstrate what I'm talking about. He doesn't think it's racist, and several other people don't think it's racist, and it's true that it's not really overt racism. There are very egalitarian, very socially conscious individuals who are very unlike Bill O'Reilly in their politics, yet still express similar sentiments.
I'll grant you that, but 2 things:

1) O'Reilly is both older and less refined than the vast majority of our generation.

2) Though you are right that the undercurrent of racism is there, it hasn't gotten worse. There has always been an undercurrent of racism. What's really changed is that a brown-skinned man can win "white" states against an incredibly popular white opponent. I am not saying that racism doesn't exist - it clearly does. I'm just saying that we shouldn't be in denial about the significant progress that we have made. Obama put it really well: with every generation things get a little better.
Title: Re: I HOPE Racism will fade away if I do my part
Post by: BearlyLegal on March 21, 2008, 07:07:32 PM
Okay, I'm admitting that my defenition is too Narrow/Incomplete, but my definition isn't wrong.


Somebody PLEASE stop this lollercaust.
Holy *&^%, Reezy! Where ya been, dude?
Title: Re: I HOPE Racism will fade away if I do my part
Post by: Papa Bear on March 21, 2008, 07:09:36 PM
Holy poo, Reezy! Where ya been, dude?

I think the pottymouth-filter on this board is hilarious. Poo. :)
Title: Re: I HOPE Racism will fade away if I do my part
Post by: dbgirl on March 21, 2008, 07:37:16 PM
Wait, people really think the world has gotten more racist than 30 years ago?  ???

Some things are better, some things haven't changed, others are now worse. The biggest change is that what's left of racism is sort of underground; it's systemic and unconscious, making it easier to deny.

Right.
Look at some of 1970s TV shows - All in the Family and The Jeffersons for example.  In the 1970s, race, stereotypes and interracial marriage were openly discussed on these shows.  Now we just pretend that everybody gets along just great. 
Title: Re: I HOPE Racism will fade away if I do my part
Post by: BearlyLegal on March 21, 2008, 09:13:05 PM
Wait, people really think the world has gotten more racist than 30 years ago?  ???

Some things are better, some things haven't changed, others are now worse. The biggest change is that what's left of racism is sort of underground; it's systemic and unconscious, making it easier to deny.

Right.
Look at some of 1970s TV shows - All in the Family and The Jeffersons for example.  In the 1970s, race, stereotypes and interracial marriage were openly discussed on these shows.  Now we just pretend that everybody gets along just great. 

We do?! O_O

::Points to other posts in this thread for initial corroboration::