Law School Discussion

Specific Groups => Minority and Non-Traditional Law Students => Topic started by: obamacon on April 01, 2007, 10:12:21 PM

Title: Poll: How much longer does AA have?
Post by: obamacon on April 01, 2007, 10:12:21 PM
and...go.
Title: Re: Poll: How much longer does AA have?
Post by: Stand under my Umbrella ella ella, aye!! on April 27, 2007, 06:31:48 AM
4 years if Obama becomes president

20-30 if Hillary

and 10-15 if Republican
Title: Re: Poll: How much longer does AA have?
Post by: CavemanLawyer on May 10, 2007, 09:44:32 PM
Affirmative action will not die in the next 10 years, it will take many more years until people realize that affirmative action policies are inherently unjust, if this ever happens.  The problem is the typical interest group problem.  Those who stand to gain the most from certain policies will express their voice the loudest, while the many who will lose from the policies don't protest at all.  Also, the people who support affirmative action policies are the ones who stand to lose the least from them, while they support affirmative action which does damage to the voiceless and powerless. 
Title: Re: Poll: How much longer does AA have?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 11, 2007, 01:43:38 PM
Quote
Things like welfare and medicare benefit mostly poor white people.  come on man.

There are more whites living below the poverty level than blacks, so that make sense.  Don't try and make it sound like whites (overall) benefit more from welfare programs than blacks (overall). 
Title: Re: Poll: How much longer does AA have?
Post by: leostrauss on May 11, 2007, 02:58:08 PM
The number users of food stamps are white farmers
Title: Re: Poll: How much longer does AA have?
Post by: Stand under my Umbrella ella ella, aye!! on May 13, 2007, 11:47:01 AM
Quote
Things like welfare and medicare benefit mostly poor white people.  come on man.

There are more whites living below the poverty level than blacks, so that make sense.  Don't try and make it sound like whites (overall) benefit more from welfare programs than blacks (overall). 

Nobody benefits OVERALL from welfare programs.  but in dollars spent, it mostly goes to white folk.  I'm not making it seem like anything.
Title: Re: Poll: How much longer does AA have?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 13, 2007, 12:41:19 PM
Then what was the purpose of saying "Things like welfare and medicare benefit mostly poor white people.  come on man."?  What point were you trying to make? 

Quote
but in dollars spent, it mostly goes to white folk. 

Yes, because there are MORE poor whites than there are poor blacks, therefore it makes sense that more money is spent on poor whites.  If there were more poor blacks than poor whites, then more money would be spent on blacks for welfare. 
Title: Re: Poll: How much longer does AA have?
Post by: philibusters on May 15, 2007, 08:03:58 PM
I doubt it lasts more than 25 or 30 more years.  I support AA and think it does more good than harm, yet I think there are probably more efficient alternatives out there and as slow as the political processes move it will move in the direction of exploring alternatives and AA will die a slow natural, possibly painful for its supporters, death.  If it is still around in 30 years that will be an indictment of the political process on their inability to deal with tough racial issues, which would not be good, but actually on second thought that doesn't seem that far fetched so maybe it will be around for  awhile.
Title: Re: Poll: How much longer does AA have?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 15, 2007, 09:16:22 PM
Hahaha, right.  Making up statistics is fun, but pointless.  Great work. I especially like how you can't respond to my comment, so you have to make something up.  Sniff, sniff...  smells like we've got a little racist in here.  Tj, take a bath. 

Title: Re: Poll: How much longer does AA have?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on May 16, 2007, 11:47:19 AM
TJ, I think you are looking for myspace.  This is LSD.  Here, i'll help you out.  www.myspace.com. 


fixed
Title: Re: Poll: How much longer does AA have?
Post by: Louis55 on May 17, 2007, 11:19:18 AM
I don't know which form of AA we are talking about, but I say it will always exist as long as we live in a racially conscious and diverse society where diversity is considered a goal.  We usually speak about affirmative action in terms of the under-qualified black student stealing the spot of the overly qualified white guy.  But even when blacks scores are identical to whites scores, in a racial conscious society where diversity is valued on various levels, admissions officers will try to accept a class of a certain racial, ethnic, cultural, geographic, and gender makeup. 

AA will only end when our society becomes a true meritocracy where there is no personal statement nor any other personal information included on an application besides numbers.  Or our society moves back to a time when only one specific group (white males) were granted access to certain educational and occupational privileges, therefore making diversity irrelevant.
Title: Re: Poll: How much longer does AA have?
Post by: Americas_top_trial_lawyer on May 18, 2007, 03:29:16 PM
Well if we had affirmative action for white men for 400+ years in America, I'd suspect we would need to have it for atleast another 400+ years for people of color and white women.
Title: Re: Poll: How much longer does AA have?
Post by: philibusters on May 19, 2007, 08:01:00 PM
Well if we had affirmative action for white men for 400+ years in America, I'd suspect we would need to have it for atleast another 400+ years for people of color and white women.

Not to be picky, but near where I go to school, they just had the 400 anniversary of the landing of Jamestown, in 1607 (The queen of England visited for it). I think Jamestown was the first permanent settlement in present day United States-permanent being the key word as their were earlier attempts.  Not sure on dates of puritans and pilgrims but there were I think in the time frame between 1620-1630, so your 400+ years, is actually just under 400 years.
Title: Re: Poll: How much longer does AA have?
Post by: jillibean on May 19, 2007, 08:16:24 PM
Well if we had affirmative action for white men for 400+ years in America, I'd suspect we would need to have it for atleast another 400+ years for people of color and white women.

Not to be picky, but near where I go to school, they just had the 400 anniversary of the landing of Jamestown, in 1607 (The queen of England visited for it). I think Jamestown was the first permanent settlement in present day United States-permanent being the key word as their were earlier attempts.  Not sure on dates of puritans and pilgrims but there were I think in the time frame between 1620-1630, so your 400+ years, is actually just under 400 years.


Actually St. Augustine in FL was the first settlement- and Jamestown wasn't even permanent. By 1700 it ceased to exist anymore and almost all of the buildings that you see now were just recreated.
Title: Re: Poll: How much longer does AA have?
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on May 20, 2007, 09:36:07 PM


No one chooses to respond to your comments because you're a dense, repetitive fucktard who doesn't actually say anything.

That's fine. Carry on with the shtick, and I'll carry on with mine. We'll see who has more fun ;)


curb the personal attacks please.  thanks
Title: Re: Poll: How much longer does AA have?
Post by: Miss P on May 20, 2007, 09:53:50 PM
affirmative action which does damage to the voiceless and powerless. 

Eh?
Title: Re: Poll: How much longer does AA have?
Post by: flyaway on May 29, 2007, 08:06:09 PM
Well if we had affirmative action for white men for 400+ years in America, I'd suspect we would need to have it for atleast another 400+ years for people of color and white women.

Not to be picky, but near where I go to school, they just had the 400 anniversary of the landing of Jamestown, in 1607 (The queen of England visited for it). I think Jamestown was the first permanent settlement in present day United States-permanent being the key word as their were earlier attempts.  Not sure on dates of puritans and pilgrims but there were I think in the time frame between 1620-1630, so your 400+ years, is actually just under 400 years.


Actually St. Augustine in FL was the first settlement- and Jamestown wasn't even permanent. By 1700 it ceased to exist anymore and almost all of the buildings that you see now were just recreated.

First permanent *English* settlement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamestown,_Virginia

There was a SUPER interesting article on Jamestown in a recent issue of National Geographic.
Title: Re: Poll: How much longer does AA have?
Post by: jillibean on May 30, 2007, 05:45:03 AM
but it wasn't permanent. Sure, it was English and it was the first but its not permanent,and please don't use wikipedia as a source.

Also, that National Geographic article was awesome and a little weird- especially how they ate dogs and rats. I wonder if that account of the guy killing and eating is pregnant wife is true....Hmmm?
Title: Re: Poll: How much longer does AA have?
Post by: flyaway on May 30, 2007, 06:13:03 AM
I guess it depends on the definition of permanent.  No human settlement is really ever permanent.  It seems that Jamestown is widely defined that way compared to earlier settlements, so what was the difference? 
Title: Re: Poll: How much longer does AA have?
Post by: rainmaker10 on June 18, 2007, 02:51:12 PM
Quote
Things like welfare and medicare benefit mostly poor white people.  come on man.

There are more whites living below the poverty level than blacks, so that make sense.  Don't try and make it sound like whites (overall) benefit more from welfare programs than blacks (overall). 

Clearly, there are more white people in the United States than there are black people, so, of course, there will be a greater amount of whites in any category than blacks. Other than prison/death row statistics, where blacks clearly outnumber whites, the white population will always be greater than that of the black population.
Title: Re: Poll: How much longer does AA have?
Post by: Titus on June 19, 2007, 04:25:51 PM
I think affirmative action will always exist. As for its enforcement, I think it will go down as we perceive ourselves to be a more diverse society, regardless of whether or not the perception is true.

As for the welfare comment, I think the question would be better structured based on a percentage of a particular race rather than the whole US. For example, if my fake sample includes 10 whites on welfare, 2 blacks on welfare, one black not on welfare and 30 whites not on welfare, then more whites (as a total number) would be on welfare. However, a greater percentage of blacks would be. Therefore, it could be argued that "more" blacks are on welfare as a percentage and benefit more, although they get less money.
Title: Re: Poll: How much longer does AA have?
Post by: Stand under my Umbrella ella ella, aye!! on July 11, 2007, 09:22:43 PM
I think affirmative action will always exist. As for its enforcement, I think it will go down as we perceive ourselves to be a more diverse society, regardless of whether or not the perception is true.

As for the welfare comment, I think the question would be better structured based on a percentage of a particular race rather than the whole US. For example, if my fake sample includes 10 whites on welfare, 2 blacks on welfare, one black not on welfare and 50 whites not on welfare, then more whites (as a total number) would be on welfare. However, a greater percentage of blacks would be. Therefore, it could be argued that "more" blacks are on welfare as a percentage and benefit more, although they get less money.

listen to what I am saying.  Welfare benefits MOSTLY.  POOR.  White people.  people are not percentages and fractions.  if I have 10 white people and two black people on welfare out of 50 whites and ten blacks its really about WHITE people, it just so happens a few blacks benefit from it.  if it was just those two black people the program would not have existed in the firstplace.  the program was an answer to the amount of whites enmasse who needed/need such programs.  black people benefit in an ancillary capacity - even if we make up a tenth of the population and a third of the rolls.  that said, that 2/3rds is enormous and is what keeps the programs in existence.  at any rate, as as the black to white ratio rises we will move away from such programs.  I'm intuitive like that, and I know many will make the argument that blacks benefit more from welfare than white people.  and before you go screaming angry black man, I feel bad for those massive amounts of poor white people who will not have these programs to benefit from.  whereas others wouldn't even acknowledge there existence but for all the black people on welfare taking their tax money...   
Title: Re: Poll: How much longer does AA have?
Post by: philibusters on July 12, 2007, 05:39:26 AM
I think affirmative action will always exist. As for its enforcement, I think it will go down as we perceive ourselves to be a more diverse society, regardless of whether or not the perception is true.

As for the welfare comment, I think the question would be better structured based on a percentage of a particular race rather than the whole US. For example, if my fake sample includes 10 whites on welfare, 2 blacks on welfare, one black not on welfare and 50 whites not on welfare, then more whites (as a total number) would be on welfare. However, a greater percentage of blacks would be. Therefore, it could be argued that "more" blacks are on welfare as a percentage and benefit more, although they get less money.

listen to what I am saying.  Welfare benefits MOSTLY.  POOR.  White people.  people are not percentages and fractions.  if I have 10 white people and two black people on welfare out of 50 whites and ten blacks its really about WHITE people, it just so happens a few blacks benefit from it.  if it was just those two black people the program would not have existed in the firstplace.  the program was an answer to the amount of whites enmasse who needed/need such programs.  black people benefit in an ancillary capacity - even if we make up a tenth of the population and a third of the rolls.  that said, that 2/3rds is enormous and is what keeps the programs in existence.  at any rate, as as the black to white ratio rises we will move away from such programs.  I'm intuitive like that, and I know many will make the argument that blacks benefit more from welfare than white people.  and before you go screaming angry black man, I feel bad for those massive amounts of poor white people who will not have these programs to benefit from.  whereas others wouldn't even acknowledge there existence but for all the black people on welfare taking their tax money...   

For the most part didn't Bill Clinton kill welfare? 
Title: Re: Poll: How much longer does AA have?
Post by: 1654134681665465 on July 12, 2007, 01:09:02 PM
Quote
whereas others wouldn't even acknowledge there existence but for all the black people on welfare taking their tax money...   

I don't care who you are or what color you are-stop taking tax payer money.  I do believe that there are some who honestly do need government assistance, however, the majority of people on welfare are using it as a crutch instead of a helping hand. 
Title: Re: Poll: How much longer does AA have?
Post by: philibusters on July 12, 2007, 04:23:05 PM
Quote
whereas others wouldn't even acknowledge there existence but for all the black people on welfare taking their tax money...   

I don't care who you are or what color you are-stop taking tax payer money.  I do believe that there are some who honestly do need government assistance, however, the majority of people on welfare are using it as a crutch instead of a helping hand. 

I can sort of agree with that.  I don't mind giving tax payer money to those in need, but I also acknowledge that it does give at least some people a dis-incentive to work.  You def. can't live large off welfare, but the problem was that it was poor unskilled people receiving it and thus they weren't going to earn much, at least initially in the workforce.  In fact, a lot of them probably would have started at min. wage and thus it was easy value their leisure over the difference between working and welfare.  Its somewhat analogous to stay at home mom's, there are a lot more stay at home mothers wth a high school education with earning potential in the 20,000's than stay at home moms with M.D. with earning potential in the hundred of thousands of dollars. 
Title: Re: Poll: How much longer does AA have?
Post by: biomed engineer on July 16, 2007, 07:42:08 PM
The policy was outlawed in a few states.  I moved to Florida in 2002 and discovered that affirmative action had been outlawed two years later.  During that time (1999-early 2000), there were large protests against the pending ban.  Minorities organized a pro-AA demonstration near the state legislature buildings.  But the policy was banned.  In the aftermath, the tension has largely faded.  I have lived here five years, and I have never witnessed another minority complain that it is gone.  I am Apache Indian.

However, when I have blogged about it by simply stating historical facts (i.e. above), I have gotten hate mail from other minorities outside of Florida who still want affirmative action to stay alive at their state or school.  As I stated earlier, I had NOTHING to do with the ban of 2000 in FL.  I was living in Colorado at the time.  However, like other minorities, I have managed to stay successful in college by merit alone without any AA policy.  Minority enrollment has actually increased.  Life goes on.

I am not naive though.  I know that the AA discussion still brings a lot of tension on college campuses where the policy still exists.  I know that some anti-AA students hold affirmative action "bake sales" to protest the policy, which usually brings a lot of tension.  At Colorado's Medical School, a white student told me that many other whites don't see the minorities as having earned admission by merit alone, which is ironic.  I knew minority medical students who had MCAT scores in the mid-30s.  So Colorado still has tension, but it might be outlawed over there in 2008.  The same might occur in Arizona.  It depends a lot on Ward Connerly.  He and Jennifer Gratz led a drive to outlaw affirmative action in Michigan.  They are concentrating on more states. 

Here in FL, affirmative action is already gone, so it's really a non-issue.  I have lived here for five years and interacted with many other minorities.  I have never heard them complain that it is gone.  I have heard people (both whites and minorities) complain about FEMA or gas price gouging after hurricanes (i.e. Hurricane Charley of 2004 or Ivan; not to mention Katrina, which also hit Miami).  But I've never heard any harsh arguments about affirmative action.  They did occur back in 1999-2000 within the protests, but that is from another time.
Title: Re: Poll: How much longer does AA have?
Post by: philibusters on July 17, 2007, 07:50:23 PM
I support AA, but I always find it interesting to hear for a person with minority status who doesn't support AA.  AA is more about group justice, history, the political system, its not about individual justice.  I think AA probably creates more lawyers, more college grads, et cetera, and it helps a lot of minority students have opp's that might not have been offered to them.  However, AA does affect some people of minority status negatively, I don't think that much can be denied, I just think the benefits outweigh the negative.  Why don't you support AA?