Law School Discussion

Deciding Where to Go => Visits, Admit Days, and Open Houses => Topic started by: YouShouldFeelPrivileged on April 20, 2009, 07:57:01 AM

Title: WTF Rankings
Post by: YouShouldFeelPrivileged on April 20, 2009, 07:57:01 AM
Just figured I'd make a thread where people can comment on who got pwned and what not in the leaked 2010 rankings...

My take:
IU-B = WTF?  I visited and it did not strike me as poised for a +13 rankings jump  :-\
GW = pwned

What say you?
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: Remarq on April 20, 2009, 08:16:07 AM
I'm glad I passed on the Cuse and their $, even with the Vf'nP they couldn't stay in the top 100.
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: T. Durden on April 20, 2009, 08:26:13 AM
Something seems off. GW and Fordham were clearly victimized by their PT programs (how else would you legitimize such a drop in the face of their employment #ers and median admission #ers?) while GT was seemingly unaffected ... I'm calling shenaningans ;)
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: TTom on April 20, 2009, 08:46:04 AM
Just figured I'd make a thread where people can comment on who got pwned and what not in the leaked 2010 rankings...

My take:
IU-B = WTF?  I visited and it did not strike me as poised for a +13 rankings jump  :-\
GW = pwned

What say you?

Why would your visit give any indication of whether or not IU-B was going to jump? Oh, wait. It wouldn't.
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: YouShouldFeelPrivileged on April 20, 2009, 08:53:37 AM
Just figured I'd make a thread where people can comment on who got pwned and what not in the leaked 2010 rankings...

My take:
IU-B = WTF?  I visited and it did not strike me as poised for a +13 rankings jump  :-\
GW = pwned

What say you?

Why would your visit give any indication of whether or not IU-B was going to jump? Oh, wait. It wouldn't.

The staff was really disorganized and IMHO it did not seem like a quality institution worthy of a ranking boost; if anything, it should have fallen  ::)
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: TTom on April 20, 2009, 08:56:55 AM
Just figured I'd make a thread where people can comment on who got pwned and what not in the leaked 2010 rankings...

My take:
IU-B = WTF?  I visited and it did not strike me as poised for a +13 rankings jump  :-\
GW = pwned

What say you?

Staff disorganization isn't a category in the USNWR. Either is your opinion.

Why would your visit give any indication of whether or not IU-B was going to jump? Oh, wait. It wouldn't.

The staff was really disorganized and IMHO it did not seem like a quality institution worthy of a ranking boost; if anything, it should have fallen  ::)

Staff disorganization isn't a factor in the USNWR. Either is your opinion.

It should have fallen? Why? Do you have anything to support this?
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: YouShouldFeelPrivileged on April 20, 2009, 08:59:39 AM
Just figured I'd make a thread where people can comment on who got pwned and what not in the leaked 2010 rankings...

My take:
IU-B = WTF?  I visited and it did not strike me as poised for a +13 rankings jump  :-\
GW = pwned

What say you?

Staff disorganization isn't a category in the USNWR. Either is your opinion.

Why would your visit give any indication of whether or not IU-B was going to jump? Oh, wait. It wouldn't.

The staff was really disorganized and IMHO it did not seem like a quality institution worthy of a ranking boost; if anything, it should have fallen  ::)

Staff disorganization isn't a factor in the USNWR. Either is your opinion.

Did you mean "neither?"  In that case, I would agree with you  ;)
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: StevePirates on April 20, 2009, 09:00:58 AM
I think that San Diego's leap was pretty impressive.  I wonder if their part time program factored in there. 
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: NMUZ on April 20, 2009, 09:05:03 AM
There are a few surprises to me

IU-Indianapolis- Big fall
Buffalo- Big jump
Syracuse- Drop out of T2

I am sure there are more, but this will get us started
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: T. Durden on April 20, 2009, 09:22:01 AM
I think that San Diego's leap was pretty impressive.  I wonder if their part time program factored in there. 

All the more reason that this list appears suspect; USD would have expected a similar drop given the incorporation of the PT program details

It seems semi-bizarre to me that a program (GW, with Fordham being similarly situated) with the 13th or 14th highest median admission #ers in the nation (167, 3.75) and the 18th highest NLJ 250 placement by % and 6th by total # is being bumped to 28 by Indiana, Iowa ... William and Mary?!?! It makes sense if (and only if) USNWR factored in PT #ers but apparently this is not the case; USD jumps by how many spots? Something is wrong here.
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: YouShouldFeelPrivileged on April 20, 2009, 09:24:30 AM
I think that San Diego's leap was pretty impressive.  I wonder if their part time program factored in there. 

All the more reason that this list appears suspect; USD would have expected a similar drop given the incorporation of the PT program details

It seems semi-bizarre to me that a program (GW, with Fordham being similarly situated) with the 13th or 14th highest median admission #ers in the nation (167, 3.75) and the 18th highest NLJ 250 placement by % and 6th by total # is being bumped to 28 by Indiana, Iowa ... William and Mary?!?! It makes sense if (and only if) USNWR factored in PT #ers but apparently this is not the case; USD jumps by how many spots? Something is wrong here.

So will we find out in two days that TLS pwned us all?  ???  lol
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: T. Durden on April 20, 2009, 09:27:22 AM
I think that San Diego's leap was pretty impressive.  I wonder if their part time program factored in there. 

All the more reason that this list appears suspect; USD would have expected a similar drop given the incorporation of the PT program details

It seems semi-bizarre to me that a program (GW, with Fordham being similarly situated) with the 13th or 14th highest median admission #ers in the nation (167, 3.75) and the 18th highest NLJ 250 placement by % and 6th by total # is being bumped to 28 by Indiana, Iowa ... William and Mary?!?! It makes sense if (and only if) USNWR factored in PT #ers but apparently this is not the case; USD jumps by how many spots? Something is wrong here.

So will we find out in two days that TLS pwned us all?  ???  lol

hah .. I admit that it seems unlikely. I think that the more likely scenario is that USNWR has officially jumped the shark ;)
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: iamluke20 on April 20, 2009, 11:17:45 AM
If this is legit,  CU-Boulder falling 13 spots is pretty big.
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: kimber1028 on April 20, 2009, 11:21:33 AM
If this is legit,  CU-Boulder falling 13 spots is pretty big.

It's legit. She bought the magazine early from a newsstand in NYC.
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: BurtsBees on April 20, 2009, 11:42:50 AM
If this is legit,  CU-Boulder falling 13 spots is pretty big.

It's legit. She bought the magazine early from a newsstand in NYC.

Pitt fell like 17 last year
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: YouShouldFeelPrivileged on April 20, 2009, 11:44:18 AM
I'm in Ohio and the Case Western fall was another big shocker last year...looks like they want to make a comeback to T50 though.

I guess big movements aren't really that unheard of?
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: Remarq on April 20, 2009, 11:45:50 AM
Penn State @ 65 and Lewis and Clark @ 61. Big moves.
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: Remarq on April 20, 2009, 11:47:04 AM
I'm in Ohio and the Case Western fall was another big shocker last year...looks like they want to make a comeback to T50 though.

I guess big movements aren't really that unheard of?

I hope so :)
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: kimber1028 on April 20, 2009, 11:48:33 AM
USD went up 21 spots from #82 to #61. Talk about a killer leap.
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: TJCCARDCO on April 20, 2009, 11:52:09 AM
idk why anyone would question the legitimacy, because its in a magazine. the other thread that has it on a sheet of paper looks suspect, but this looks spot on! Especially with the new ranking for part-time, how would it not be real? no one is that good.
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: kimber1028 on April 20, 2009, 11:57:04 AM
idk why anyone would question the legitimacy, because its in a magazine. the other thread that has it on a sheet of paper looks suspect, but this looks spot on! Especially with the new ranking for part-time, how would it not be real? no one is that good.

It's also been determined that the sheet posted two or three days ago on TLS was legit, as far as the numbers go... it is thought to have been a early mock-up of the article.
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: BigEast5 on April 20, 2009, 11:59:54 AM
Why is University of Maine ranked in the top 100 then also in the tier 3??
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: kimber1028 on April 20, 2009, 12:01:21 PM
Why is University of Maine ranked in the top 100 then also in the tier 3??

Apparently they always do that with the #100 schools. Someone on TLS checked it out in last year's magazine.
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: TJCCARDCO on April 20, 2009, 12:27:39 PM
Everyone is so skeptical over something that really isn't that important until you graduate from law school. It seems to me that if a school in the top 50 is making great strides, the jump of 13 spots of the one school (name escapes me at current moment, bc im typing a paper) to #23 proves that they really dont matter all that much if the school doesn't keep pushing to be the best.

Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: YouShouldFeelPrivileged on April 20, 2009, 12:43:19 PM
Everyone is so skeptical over something that really isn't that important until you graduate from law school. It seems to me that if a school in the top 50 is making great strides, the jump of 13 spots of the one school (name escapes me at current moment, bc im typing a paper) to #23 proves that they really dont matter all that much if the school doesn't keep pushing to be the best.



It might affect someone who just chose a particular school b/c of it's rank to see that it has fallen out of T30, T50 or whatever.  Not that making a decision based entirely on rank is too smart to begin with, and such individuals may deserve their present misery  ???
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: Manwithaplan on April 20, 2009, 02:50:54 PM
USD went up 21 spots from #82 to #61. Talk about a killer leap.

 USD was 65 in 2006, getting back to 61 isn't really a leap because it is just back in the spot it was 3 years ago
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: Ninja1 on April 20, 2009, 07:08:54 PM
Just figured I'd make a thread where people can comment on who got pwned and what not in the leaked 2010 rankings...

My take:
IU-B = WTF?  I visited and it did not strike me as poised for a +13 rankings jump  :-\
GW = pwned

What say you?

I think IU-B's jump has a lot to do with the number of apps received last year. I think they sent fee waivers to damn near everyone and a lot of people, myself included, that otherwise had no interest in IU-B said "why not?"

The only two communications I ever received from them in the 5 months my application was pending (I finally withdrew without ever receiving any sort of decision) were an email and postcard that both basically said sorry for taking so long, but we had a ton more apps than we were anticipating.
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: Ninja1 on April 20, 2009, 07:09:59 PM
If this is legit,  CU-Boulder falling 13 spots is pretty big.

The CU system is dying and I think a good number of people "in the know" realize that and it's negatively impacting their rep.
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: StevePirates on April 20, 2009, 08:05:58 PM
USD went up 21 spots from #82 to #61. Talk about a killer leap.

 USD was 65 in 2006, getting back to 61 isn't really a leap because it is just back in the spot it was 3 years ago

I remember when USD dropped from 65 to 85 and the students nearly rioted against Admin.
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: iamluke20 on April 21, 2009, 07:08:58 AM
idk why anyone would question the legitimacy, because its in a magazine. the other thread that has it on a sheet of paper looks suspect, but this looks spot on! Especially with the new ranking for part-time, how would it not be real? no one is that good.

Yeah everything on the internet that looks real probably is....

I do think this is probably real, for the record.
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: Matthies on April 21, 2009, 08:15:28 AM
If this is legit,  CU-Boulder falling 13 spots is pretty big.

The CU system is dying and I think a good number of people "in the know" realize that and it's negatively impacting their rep.

Meh, they got a big jump last year becuase of the new building = mucho money spent per stududent, so falling is not unexpeted given they don't have that expenidutre anymore
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: non parata est on April 21, 2009, 08:30:37 AM
IU-B also got a big donation this past year, big enough for them to name the school after the donor.  Don't know if that had anything to do with it, but it's something to consider.
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: Good Teacher on April 21, 2009, 10:31:15 AM
I'm amazed out how submitted some people are to the US News Rankings.  What makes this periodical so trustworthy that hundreds of people on this site logon everyday to discuss who's poised for a "bump" or what tier US News puts them in?  If I'm not mistaken, the rankings are largely based on the LSAT scores of the incoming class (which has nothing to do with the quality of its faculty or resources) and public perception (which is sometimes based on the respect brought by a good football/basketball team or a past history of being exclusive). 

In sum, the way they've chosen to rank law schools lacks credibility and it should not be recognized as such.  They would be less deceptive if they called their system "Top Scoring Incoming Law School Classes" or "America's Most Popular Law Schools"
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: T. Durden on April 21, 2009, 10:44:00 AM
haha if that were the case GW would be t18 (if not higher), not t, uh, 28. for the past 2 years, GW FT medians: 167, 3.75. fordham is right there with GW is terms of admit stats. apparently USNWR has adopted a new formula that factors in a host of other variables from the PT programs which explains the 28 and 30 rankings. seems a bit ridiculous to me. why penalize the FT programs with PT data? whatever, hardly matters. GW and Fordham still placed 43-45% of their graduating classes into NLJ 250 firms last year; this is the only stat that really matters.
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: TeresaPinfold on April 21, 2009, 10:58:36 AM
Actually I think the problem is that most of the ranking is not based on real, meaningful factors like LSAT. A ranking based purely on a LSAT/GPA index would probably be more accurate, but it wouldn't be worthy of a lucrative magazine edition.
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: Remarq on April 21, 2009, 12:02:55 PM
I'm amazed out how submitted some people are to the US News Rankings.  What makes this periodical so trustworthy that hundreds of people on this site logon everyday to discuss who's poised for a "bump" or what tier US News puts them in?  If I'm not mistaken, the rankings are largely based on the LSAT scores of the incoming class (which has nothing to do with the quality of its faculty or resources) and public perception (which is sometimes based on the respect brought by a good football/basketball team or a past history of being exclusive). 

In sum, the way they've chosen to rank law schools lacks credibility and it should not be recognized as such.  They would be less deceptive if they called their system "Top Scoring Incoming Law School Classes" or "America's Most Popular Law Schools"

40% of the ranking score comes from the lawyer and judge assessment score... so, pick another name for your rankings.
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: Good Teacher on April 21, 2009, 01:14:03 PM
I'm amazed out how submitted some people are to the US News Rankings.  What makes this periodical so trustworthy that hundreds of people on this site logon everyday to discuss who's poised for a "bump" or what tier US News puts them in?  If I'm not mistaken, the rankings are largely based on the LSAT scores of the incoming class (which has nothing to do with the quality of its faculty or resources) and public perception (which is sometimes based on the respect brought by a good football/basketball team or a past history of being exclusive). 

In sum, the way they've chosen to rank law schools lacks credibility and it should not be recognized as such.  They would be less deceptive if they called their system "Top Scoring Incoming Law School Classes" or "America's Most Popular Law Schools"

40% of the ranking score comes from the lawyer and judge assessment score... so, pick another name for your rankings.

To that truth I've already offered "America' Most Popular Law Schools" as a possible name so I'm covered.  ;D
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: m1ss_uNdeRst00d on April 21, 2009, 06:18:10 PM
There are a few surprises to me

IU-Indianapolis- Big fall
Buffalo- Big jump
Syracuse- Drop out of T2

I am sure there are more, but this will get us started

Where is UB now?
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: m1ss_uNdeRst00d on April 21, 2009, 06:24:44 PM
Nevermind. I found it. Up 85 - go UB!!!
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: Number81 on April 21, 2009, 07:37:01 PM
Actually I think the problem is that most of the ranking is not based on real, meaningful factors like LSAT. A ranking based purely on a LSAT/GPA index would probably be more accurate, but it wouldn't be worthy of a lucrative magazine edition.

Good point, but I disagree.

USN&WR isn't simply listing the "most selective law schools" (and even in that case, merely factoring LSAT/GPA is insufficient).  It is listing the 'best' schools.  Your academic experience will be enhanced when you have a library with plenty of resources and space, when your professors are of high quality, when the school spends money on enhancing your experience, when the school provides the ability to summer in a good firm that will give interesting work (employment %), and when other students are very smart.  All of these factors are relevant in assessing the quality of the legal education.


That said, I don't think USN&WR is perfect.  I think it could add some measurements, use different proportions to come up with rank, and measure things differently.
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: Matthies on April 21, 2009, 07:54:10 PM
Actually I think the problem is that most of the ranking is not based on real, meaningful factors like LSAT. A ranking based purely on a LSAT/GPA index would probably be more accurate, but it wouldn't be worthy of a lucrative magazine edition.

Good point, but I disagree.

USN&WR isn't simply listing the "most selective law schools" (and even in that case, merely factoring LSAT/GPA is insufficient).  It is listing the 'best' schools.  Your academic experience will be enhanced when you have a library with plenty of resources and space, when your professors are of high quality, when the school spends money on enhancing your experience, when the school provides the ability to summer in a good firm that will give interesting work (employment %), and when other students are very smart.  All of these factors are relevant in assessing the quality of the legal education.


That said, I don't think USN&WR is perfect.  I think it could add some measurements, use different proportions to come up with rank, and measure things differently.

I’d go for gladiator style combat between each schools “hero” the self appointed gunner champion in a fight to the death using flails and tridents. The longer you schools gladiator lasts, the higher the ranking, until out of the two reaming battlers, one must choose between letting the defeated live and get the accolades those with a heart in legal academe, or instead go for his own glory and slit his or hers throat and become EIC of the Law Review. Payperview of course, with Nancy Grace doing the announcing, and adoring fans from each school watching with anticipation to see if their classmate remains alive long engough to get the school a respectable rank, but die himself so you don’t have to complete with him for grades or jobs next semester.  It appeals to all law students on so many different levels.
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: YouShouldFeelPrivileged on April 21, 2009, 07:57:33 PM
Actually I think the problem is that most of the ranking is not based on real, meaningful factors like LSAT. A ranking based purely on a LSAT/GPA index would probably be more accurate, but it wouldn't be worthy of a lucrative magazine edition.

Good point, but I disagree.

USN&WR isn't simply listing the "most selective law schools" (and even in that case, merely factoring LSAT/GPA is insufficient).  It is listing the 'best' schools.  Your academic experience will be enhanced when you have a library with plenty of resources and space, when your professors are of high quality, when the school spends money on enhancing your experience, when the school provides the ability to summer in a good firm that will give interesting work (employment %), and when other students are very smart.  All of these factors are relevant in assessing the quality of the legal education.


That said, I don't think USN&WR is perfect.  I think it could add some measurements, use different proportions to come up with rank, and measure things differently.

I’d go for gladiator style combat between each schools “hero” the self appointed gunner champion in a fight to the death using flails and tridents. The longer you schools gladiator lasts, the higher the ranking, until out of the two reaming battlers, one must choose between letting the defeated live and get the accolades those with a heart in legal academe, or instead go for his own glory and slit his or hers throat and become EIC of the Law Review. Payperview of course, with Nancy Grace doing the announcing, and adoring fans from each school watching with anticipation to see if their classmate remains alive long engough to get the school a respectable rank, but die himself so you don’t have to complete with him for grades or jobs next semester.  It appeals to all law students on so many different levels.

Haha! But wait...
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: non parata est on April 21, 2009, 09:57:47 PM
Aren't we ignoring the real question here?

When do the new Cooley rankings come out?
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: Tetris on April 21, 2009, 10:45:42 PM
Aren't we ignoring the real question here?

When do the new Cooley rankings come out?

No kidding.  Nothing will make us Sixigan Michigan students feel better than seeing us ranked above Yale.
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: LawDog3 on April 21, 2009, 10:56:57 PM
Actually I think the problem is that most of the ranking is not based on real, meaningful factors like LSAT. A ranking based purely on a LSAT/GPA index would probably be more accurate, but it wouldn't be worthy of a lucrative magazine edition.

Do you mean this? Almost every human being I have ever heard speak about the rankings, even those who staunchly support the LSAT as an indicator, say that too much emphasis/weight is given to the LSAT in rankings. One negative outcome is that schools wind up catering to the USNWR rankings when selecting candidates, instead of giving holistic reviews of applicant files and selecting students they would otherwise love to admit.
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: m1ss_uNdeRst00d on April 22, 2009, 04:29:27 AM

[/quote]

I’d go for gladiator style combat between each schools “hero” the self appointed gunner champion in a fight to the death using flails and tridents. The longer you schools gladiator lasts, the higher the ranking, until out of the two reaming battlers, one must choose between letting the defeated live and get the accolades those with a heart in legal academe, or instead go for his own glory and slit his or hers throat and become EIC of the Law Review. Payperview of course, with Nancy Grace doing the announcing, and adoring fans from each school watching with anticipation to see if their classmate remains alive long engough to get the school a respectable rank, but die himself so you don’t have to complete with him for grades or jobs next semester.  It appeals to all law students on so many different levels.
[/quote]

I'm in. Let's go.
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: TTom on April 22, 2009, 08:26:16 AM
Actually I think the problem is that most of the ranking is not based on real, meaningful factors like LSAT. A ranking based purely on a LSAT/GPA index would probably be more accurate, but it wouldn't be worthy of a lucrative magazine edition.

Good point, but I disagree.

USN&WR isn't simply listing the "most selective law schools" (and even in that case, merely factoring LSAT/GPA is insufficient).  It is listing the 'best' schools.  Your academic experience will be enhanced when you have a library with plenty of resources and space, when your professors are of high quality, when the school spends money on enhancing your experience, when the school provides the ability to summer in a good firm that will give interesting work (employment %), and when other students are very smart.  All of these factors are relevant in assessing the quality of the legal education.


That said, I don't think USN&WR is perfect.  I think it could add some measurements, use different proportions to come up with rank, and measure things differently.

I'm in total agreement.
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: Ninja1 on April 22, 2009, 12:50:31 PM
Actually I think the problem is that most of the ranking is not based on real, meaningful factors like LSAT. A ranking based purely on a LSAT/GPA index would probably be more accurate, but it wouldn't be worthy of a lucrative magazine edition.

Good point, but I disagree.

USN&WR isn't simply listing the "most selective law schools" (and even in that case, merely factoring LSAT/GPA is insufficient).  It is listing the 'best' schools.  Your academic experience will be enhanced when you have a library with plenty of resources and space, when your professors are of high quality, when the school spends money on enhancing your experience, when the school provides the ability to summer in a good firm that will give interesting work (employment %), and when other students are very smart.  All of these factors are relevant in assessing the quality of the legal education.


That said, I don't think USN&WR is perfect.  I think it could add some measurements, use different proportions to come up with rank, and measure things differently.

I’d go for gladiator style combat between each schools “hero” the self appointed gunner champion in a fight to the death using flails and tridents. The longer you schools gladiator lasts, the higher the ranking, until out of the two reaming battlers, one must choose between letting the defeated live and get the accolades those with a heart in legal academe, or instead go for his own glory and slit his or hers throat and become EIC of the Law Review. Payperview of course, with Nancy Grace doing the announcing, and adoring fans from each school watching with anticipation to see if their classmate remains alive long engough to get the school a respectable rank, but die himself so you don’t have to complete with him for grades or jobs next semester.  It appeals to all law students on so many different levels.

Best system I've ever heard on several levels.
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: YouShouldFeelPrivileged on April 23, 2009, 09:21:55 AM
I think that San Diego's leap was pretty impressive.  I wonder if their part time program factored in there. 

All the more reason that this list appears suspect; USD would have expected a similar drop given the incorporation of the PT program details

It seems semi-bizarre to me that a program (GW, with Fordham being similarly situated) with the 13th or 14th highest median admission #ers in the nation (167, 3.75) and the 18th highest NLJ 250 placement by % and 6th by total # is being bumped to 28 by Indiana, Iowa ... William and Mary?!?! It makes sense if (and only if) USNWR factored in PT #ers but apparently this is not the case; USD jumps by how many spots? Something is wrong here.

So will we find out in two days that TLS pwned us all?  ???  lol

hah .. I admit that it seems unlikely. I think that the more likely scenario is that USNWR has officially jumped the shark ;)

It's official  >:(
lol
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: T. Durden on April 23, 2009, 03:29:03 PM
I think that San Diego's leap was pretty impressive.  I wonder if their part time program factored in there. 

All the more reason that this list appears suspect; USD would have expected a similar drop given the incorporation of the PT program details

It seems semi-bizarre to me that a program (GW, with Fordham being similarly situated) with the 13th or 14th highest median admission #ers in the nation (167, 3.75) and the 18th highest NLJ 250 placement by % and 6th by total # is being bumped to 28 by Indiana, Iowa ... William and Mary?!?! It makes sense if (and only if) USNWR factored in PT #ers but apparently this is not the case; USD jumps by how many spots? Something is wrong here.

So will we find out in two days that TLS pwned us all?  ???  lol

hah .. I admit that it seems unlikely. I think that the more likely scenario is that USNWR has officially jumped the shark ;)

It's official  >:(
lol

haha apparently so

i understand what USNWR is trying to do but this is scorched earth. i'll put it like this: a school like GW with t15-17 median admit stats and t18 NLJ250 placement will *have* to react in some form or fashion as the new ranking will adversely impact its ability to both place its current students and recruit students of equal or superior caliber. so what recourse does GW have? should it stop gaming its #ers? it never did game its numbers to begin with. the FT class of '11 is the same size that the GW FT division has historically been; ~510 or students. all 510 students in this FT division contribute to the 167 / 3.75 medians. the same theory applies to the FT employment stats. so why the drop? well, the answer is simple: the night school.

if there is any recourse to be taken, it now lies with the status of the PT division. that's it. USNWR has overreacted in a major way and now the status of virtually every PT dept in the country will have to be reconsidered. it's unfortunate that a 3rd rate pub like us news has the power to shape the system in such a way.

http://www.princetonreview.com/schools/law/LawBasics.aspx?iid=1035863

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=61206
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: GhostofTomJoad on April 26, 2009, 01:10:47 AM
Actually I think the problem is that most of the ranking is not based on real, meaningful factors like LSAT. A ranking based purely on a LSAT/GPA index would probably be more accurate, but it wouldn't be worthy of a lucrative magazine edition.

Good point, but I disagree.

USN&WR isn't simply listing the "most selective law schools" (and even in that case, merely factoring LSAT/GPA is insufficient).  It is listing the 'best' schools.  Your academic experience will be enhanced when you have a library with plenty of resources and space, when your professors are of high quality, when the school spends money on enhancing your experience, when the school provides the ability to summer in a good firm that will give interesting work (employment %), and when other students are very smart.  All of these factors are relevant in assessing the quality of the legal education.


That said, I don't think USN&WR is perfect.  I think it could add some measurements, use different proportions to come up with rank, and measure things differently.

I’d go for gladiator style combat between each schools “hero” the self appointed gunner champion in a fight to the death using flails and tridents. The longer you schools gladiator lasts, the higher the ranking, until out of the two reaming battlers, one must choose between letting the defeated live and get the accolades those with a heart in legal academe, or instead go for his own glory and slit his or hers throat and become EIC of the Law Review. Payperview of course, with Nancy Grace doing the announcing, and adoring fans from each school watching with anticipation to see if their classmate remains alive long engough to get the school a respectable rank, but die himself so you don’t have to complete with him for grades or jobs next semester.  It appeals to all law students on so many different levels.

This was the single funniest post I've ever read on Law School Discussion.  I laughed for several minutes after I read "and adoring fans from each school watching with anticipation to see if their classmate remains alive long enough to get the school a respectable rank, but die himself so you don't have to compete with him for grades or jobs next semester." 
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: Slumdog Lovebutton on April 26, 2009, 02:52:32 AM
I'm amazed out how submitted some people are to the US News Rankings.  What makes this periodical so trustworthy that hundreds of people on this site logon everyday to discuss who's poised for a "bump" or what tier US News puts them in?  If I'm not mistaken, the rankings are largely based on the LSAT scores of the incoming class (which has nothing to do with the quality of its faculty or resources) and public perception (which is sometimes based on the respect brought by a good football/basketball team or a past history of being exclusive). 

In sum, the way they've chosen to rank law schools lacks credibility and it should not be recognized as such.  They would be less deceptive if they called their system "Top Scoring Incoming Law School Classes" or "America's Most Popular Law Schools"

40% of the ranking score comes from the lawyer and judge assessment score... so, pick another name for your rankings.

To that truth I've already offered "America' Most Popular Law Schools" as a possible name so I'm covered.  ;D

Okay, Magnus, you've made this exact same post twice, and I'm really shocked at the lack of insight it shows.  Have you ever tried to get a job in the legal market?  Are you familiar with the blinding importance of the opinions of judges and attorneys regarding the quality of a school?
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: NYCFed on April 26, 2009, 05:11:31 AM
Has there been much discussion of the new rankings incorporating part time programs' UGPAs and LSAT scores into the regular rankings?
Title: Re: WTF Rankings
Post by: Matthies on April 26, 2009, 05:43:51 AM
Actually I think the problem is that most of the ranking is not based on real, meaningful factors like LSAT. A ranking based purely on a LSAT/GPA index would probably be more accurate, but it wouldn't be worthy of a lucrative magazine edition.

Good point, but I disagree.

USN&WR isn't simply listing the "most selective law schools" (and even in that case, merely factoring LSAT/GPA is insufficient).  It is listing the 'best' schools.  Your academic experience will be enhanced when you have a library with plenty of resources and space, when your professors are of high quality, when the school spends money on enhancing your experience, when the school provides the ability to summer in a good firm that will give interesting work (employment %), and when other students are very smart.  All of these factors are relevant in assessing the quality of the legal education.


That said, I don't think USN&WR is perfect.  I think it could add some measurements, use different proportions to come up with rank, and measure things differently.

I’d go for gladiator style combat between each schools “hero” the self appointed gunner champion in a fight to the death using flails and tridents. The longer you schools gladiator lasts, the higher the ranking, until out of the two reaming battlers, one must choose between letting the defeated live and get the accolades those with a heart in legal academe, or instead go for his own glory and slit his or hers throat and become EIC of the Law Review. Payperview of course, with Nancy Grace doing the announcing, and adoring fans from each school watching with anticipation to see if their classmate remains alive long engough to get the school a respectable rank, but die himself so you don’t have to complete with him for grades or jobs next semester.  It appeals to all law students on so many different levels.

This was the single funniest post I've ever read on Law School Discussion.  I laughed for several minutes after I read "and adoring fans from each school watching with anticipation to see if their classmate remains alive long enough to get the school a respectable rank, but die himself so you don't have to compete with him for grades or jobs next semester." 

Thanks my rating system for german por useing 1-5 barf bags was legendary, but I d-dubed it.