Law School Discussion

Didn't they get the memo? I'm GAY!

Re: Didn't they get the memo? I'm GAY!
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2007, 06:59:08 AM »
but if you really want to make a point, write your congressman, and ask them to please consider a bill that includes GLBT indviduals within the realm of anti-discrimination legislation in graduate school admissions.

We do that as well...

Re: Didn't they get the memo? I'm GAY!
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2007, 11:14:44 AM »
Unfortunately, the most recent congressional efforts to obtain legalized equal rights for gays/lesbians was tied to the funding bill for the Bush quagmire, Iraq.  Thus, its most ardent supporters felt no choice but to defeat it.       

Bouzie

  • ****
  • 233
  • yummy
    • View Profile
    • Buy This
Re: Didn't they get the memo? I'm GAY!
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2007, 08:27:41 PM »
As a private university Liberty can discriminate agaisnt whoever it wants to all long as its not in violation of any state statutes, and I can't imagine that Virginia is protecting LGBT citizens from discrimination.

Last year I called them and asked them to stop sending me mailings.  I'm gay and some sort of an environmentalist so  had no desire to have junkmail from a hate-inspired university filling up my mailbox.  They said they'd take me off their list but never did.  Bastards.

I guess it worked out pretty well. I'm having a prety good time at my law school that wasn't founded by Jerry Falwell.

Matthew

  • ****
  • 1096
  • Formerly known as /\_-=-M-=-_/\
    • View Profile
Re: Didn't they get the memo? I'm GAY!
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2007, 03:58:18 AM »
As a private university Liberty can discriminate agaisnt whoever it wants to all long as its not in violation of any state statutes, and I can't imagine that Virginia is protecting LGBT citizens from discrimination.

Last year I called them and asked them to stop sending me mailings.  I'm gay and some sort of an environmentalist so  had no desire to have junkmail from a hate-inspired university filling up my mailbox.  They said they'd take me off their list but never did.  Bastards.

I guess it worked out pretty well. I'm having a prety good time at my law school that wasn't founded by Jerry Falwell.

I agree with this, but go even farther.  There should be no law against discriminating against gays for employment, education, or any other type of decision made by a private organization.  I say this, as a gay man, because I believe they have the right to believe that homosexuality is a sin, and they have the right of association to decide who they hire or don't hire or admit or don't admit on the basis of their beleifs.  If they can't do so, should schools have to let in racists, pedophiles, or others who hold beliefs they find objectionable?  If not, then the state has to start deciding what messages are ok to discriminate against and which aren't, and that's certainly not a path I want to go down.  Now for those who say that gay is different, because it's something you're born with, I'd say most schools won't do anything against you for being gay, but for acting on or promoting it, which is a choice.  They can't force me to go to go to their school, and I don't think I should be able to use the force of law to make them let me.

While I object to their policies, as with the Boy Scouts, I ardently support their right to make such a choice.

$Bill

  • ****
  • 990
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Didn't they get the memo? I'm GAY!
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2007, 05:30:57 AM »
As a private university Liberty can discriminate agaisnt whoever it wants to all long as its not in violation of any state statutes, and I can't imagine that Virginia is protecting LGBT citizens from discrimination.

Last year I called them and asked them to stop sending me mailings.  I'm gay and some sort of an environmentalist so  had no desire to have junkmail from a hate-inspired university filling up my mailbox.  They said they'd take me off their list but never did.  Bastards.

I guess it worked out pretty well. I'm having a prety good time at my law school that wasn't founded by Jerry Falwell.

I agree with this, but go even farther.  There should be no law against discriminating against gays for employment, education, or any other type of decision made by a private organization.  I say this, as a gay man, because I believe they have the right to believe that homosexuality is a sin, and they have the right of association to decide who they hire or don't hire or admit or don't admit on the basis of their beleifs.  If they can't do so, should schools have to let in racists, pedophiles, or others who hold beliefs they find objectionable?  If not, then the state has to start deciding what messages are ok to discriminate against and which aren't, and that's certainly not a path I want to go down.  Now for those who say that gay is different, because it's something you're born with, I'd say most schools won't do anything against you for being gay, but for acting on or promoting it, which is a choice.  They can't force me to go to go to their school, and I don't think I should be able to use the force of law to make them let me.

While I object to their policies, as with the Boy Scouts, I ardently support their right to make such a choice.

Boy Scouts receive gobs of federal funds though.  If the BSA was, say, Augusta National, then sure, the private institution has the right to dictate membership requirements.  But the BSA (unlike Liberty Regent and Ave) is a public institution, at least to a greater extent.  They do have a federal charter, and since that is the case, it should be open to boys of all creeds and distinctions.

Miss P

  • *****
  • 19300
    • View Profile
Re: Didn't they get the memo? I'm GAY!
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2007, 05:58:58 AM »
As a private university Liberty can discriminate agaisnt whoever it wants to all long as its not in violation of any state statutes, and I can't imagine that Virginia is protecting LGBT citizens from discrimination.

This isn't true, actually.  Private institutions are bound by federal anti-discrimination law through the commerce power, with very few exemptions (e.g., employers of fewer than 15 people). (Or did you just mean that it can discriminate against people who aren't members of the federally protected classes?  If so, that's closer to true.) :)

Last year I called them and asked them to stop sending me mailings.  I'm gay and some sort of an environmentalist so  had no desire to have junkmail from a hate-inspired university filling up my mailbox.  They said they'd take me off their list but never did.  Bastards.

TITCR.  I'm pleased that, of these schools, only one sent anything to me (2005-2006 cycle), but I just called and politely asked that they take me off the list and mentioned that I was making a special request because I opposed the school's position on homosexuality among other issues.  I did manage to get off the list -- or else they were only planning on sending me one viewbook in the first place.  

I agree with this, but go even farther.  There should be no law against discriminating against gays for employment, education, or any other type of decision made by a private organization.  I say this, as a gay man, because I believe they have the right to believe that homosexuality is a sin, and they have the right of association to decide who they hire or don't hire or admit or don't admit on the basis of their beleifs.  If they can't do so, should schools have to let in racists, pedophiles, or others who hold beliefs they find objectionable?  If not, then the state has to start deciding what messages are ok to discriminate against and which aren't, and that's certainly not a path I want to go down.  Now for those who say that gay is different, because it's something you're born with, I'd say most schools won't do anything against you for being gay, but for acting on or promoting it, which is a choice.  They can't force me to go to go to their school, and I don't think I should be able to use the force of law to make them let me.

While I object to their policies, as with the Boy Scouts, I ardently support their right to make such a choice.

I had understood Bouzie to be making an empirical rather than normative claim, but in any case, I disagree.  I know you're gay; I can't imagine why you would equate homosexuality with such antisocial behavior as racism and pedophilia.  Religious identity is a significantly more apt metaphor.  I doubt any of us think that private businesses and organizations should be able to exclude, say, Jews, or to tell Jewish people, "You can come here, but if you do, you can't practice your religion."  It doesn't depend on the innate or environmental or chosen status of religion; we just don't think it's a fair way to decide whom companies should hire or accommodate.  Or at least this is the prevailing view.

Re: Didn't they get the memo? I'm GAY!
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2007, 06:04:36 AM »
Admissions offices are actually pretty small.  There's a good chance someone higher up would get your message, especially if you ask for them.

Matthew

  • ****
  • 1096
  • Formerly known as /\_-=-M-=-_/\
    • View Profile
Re: Didn't they get the memo? I'm GAY!
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2007, 06:11:07 AM »
I had understood Bouzie to be making an empirical rather than normative claim, but in any case, I disagree.  I know you're gay; I can't imagine why you would equate homosexuality with such antisocial behavior as racism and pedophilia.  Religious identity is a significantly more apt metaphor.  I don't think any of us think that private businesses and organizations should be able to exclude, say, Jews, or to tell Jewish people, "You can come here, but if you do, you can't practice your religion."  It doesn't depend on the innate or environmental or chosen status of religion; we just don't think it's a fair way to decide whom companies should hire or accommodate.  Or at least this is the prevailing view.

I didn't equate the behaviors in terms of their morality or anything like that, I equated them as something that some groups revile, which the government would have to say this is ok, but this isn't.

I disagree.  I do believe private businesses and orgiizations should be able to discriminate on religion.  Should a Christian Church not be allowed to insist that a person they hire as a secrtary be Christian?  How about their pastor?

Miss P

  • *****
  • 19300
    • View Profile
Re: Didn't they get the memo? I'm GAY!
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2007, 06:26:01 AM »
I had understood Bouzie to be making an empirical rather than normative claim, but in any case, I disagree.  I know you're gay; I can't imagine why you would equate homosexuality with such antisocial behavior as racism and pedophilia.  Religious identity is a significantly more apt metaphor.  I don't think any of us think that private businesses and organizations should be able to exclude, say, Jews, or to tell Jewish people, "You can come here, but if you do, you can't practice your religion."  It doesn't depend on the innate or environmental or chosen status of religion; we just don't think it's a fair way to decide whom companies should hire or accommodate.  Or at least this is the prevailing view.

I didn't equate the behaviors in terms of their morality or anything like that, I equated them as something that some groups revile, which the government would have to say this is ok, but this isn't.

I disagree.  I do believe private businesses and orgiizations should be able to discriminate on religion.  Should a Christian Church not be allowed to insist that a person they hire as a secrtary be Christian?  How about their pastor?

Yes, but some groups also revile black people, right?  Surely the analogy has to depend on something more than mere opprobrium from some corners.

And there are (probably fair) exemptions in non-discrimination laws about religion that exempt religious employers from having to hire outsiders for positions related to religious duties.  Does the church secretary or janitor perform a religious duty?  Probably not.  I don't think the church should be able to discriminate in hiring for those positions absent an affirmative showing that hiring an outsider would impair the church's mission or message.

Matthew

  • ****
  • 1096
  • Formerly known as /\_-=-M-=-_/\
    • View Profile
Re: Didn't they get the memo? I'm GAY!
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2007, 06:31:10 AM »
I had understood Bouzie to be making an empirical rather than normative claim, but in any case, I disagree.  I know you're gay; I can't imagine why you would equate homosexuality with such antisocial behavior as racism and pedophilia.  Religious identity is a significantly more apt metaphor.  I don't think any of us think that private businesses and organizations should be able to exclude, say, Jews, or to tell Jewish people, "You can come here, but if you do, you can't practice your religion."  It doesn't depend on the innate or environmental or chosen status of religion; we just don't think it's a fair way to decide whom companies should hire or accommodate.  Or at least this is the prevailing view.

I didn't equate the behaviors in terms of their morality or anything like that, I equated them as something that some groups revile, which the government would have to say this is ok, but this isn't.

I disagree.  I do believe private businesses and orgiizations should be able to discriminate on religion.  Should a Christian Church not be allowed to insist that a person they hire as a secrtary be Christian?  How about their pastor?

Yes, but some groups also revile black people, right?  Surely the analogy has to depend on something more than mere opprobrium from some corners.

And there are (probably fair) exemptions in non-discrimination laws about religion that exempt religious employers from having to hire outsiders for positions related to religious duties.  Does the church secretary or janitor perform a religious duty?  Probably not.  I don't think the church should be able to discriminate in hiring for those positions absent an affirmative showing that hiring an outsider would impair the church's mission or message.

It's really a futile discussion at this point, as we just have different views of government.  I see their involvement in any aspect of private hiring as undesirable and you see it as justified.