Law School Discussion

Deciding Where to Go => Choosing the Right Law School => Topic started by: Buzzsaw on May 03, 2010, 01:14:36 PM

Title: How bad is Touro?
Post by: Buzzsaw on May 03, 2010, 01:14:36 PM
Hello all,

So far I've only been accepted to Touro out of the schools that I applied to. I know it's 4th tier. I know thats the lowest tier. But exactly how bad is it? Would I have no chance of getting a law job after it? I am not looking for big law or corporate law, I would be completely satisfied doing public interest or public defense.

So, hopefully if anyone has experience with the school, could u tell me just how bad of a choice it is to go there?
Title: Re: How bad is Touro?
Post by: byebyeny on May 03, 2010, 04:40:33 PM
It's bad. You will have a horrible experience. It wouldn't make it any less painful to attend other cheaper public schools. Law School is a nightmare. and no, it wouldn't make a difference if you think you are smart. Intelligence doesn't count much. It's more about knowing what you are doing. And no, don't go to an expensive private school, your life will be going downhill from that point on.

No offense, just telling you how you will be treated once you enter the legal field, and if you attend a school, you will soon realize what I said above is all true. Good luck.
Title: Re: How bad is Touro?
Post by: Buzzsaw on May 03, 2010, 05:53:35 PM
What I meant is not the experience/difficulty level but rather the quality of the education there
Title: Re: How bad is Touro?
Post by: byebyeny on May 03, 2010, 06:14:33 PM
quality of education in every law school is basically the same. Why? Professors won't teach you the law. You learn the law yourself and demonstrate your skills in classroom. Don't think of law school as a place where you will 'receive' knowledge from the teachers, think of it as a battleground where you go in to kill or get killed. quality of teachers? every law school will have teachers from harvard, yale, standord etc. you will have at least one ivy league graduate professor for one of your first year classes. Why do they say T4 schools such as Touro is bad? Because every law school is bad. At least some of the higher ranked ones (top20) give you some reward/opportunity(well, probably not very likely in this economy). Don't kid yourself by thinking that you will attend a private school to not make much money later but hold some public job. You won't get it. Even if you get it, you won't be able to repay the debt. If you really really want to go to a law school, read some books, do research on your own, don't believe random poster's comments (contradicting, eh?) or do not be too skeptical. Hope this helps.
Title: Re: How bad is Touro?
Post by: bigs5068 on May 03, 2010, 06:24:24 PM
Honestly, any ABA school teaches you the same exact thing I have a friend at Stanford who is a first year that has the same exact textbook as I do and I go to a tier 4 and we are learning the same exact things.  Bottom line the reason the ABA certifies schools is because they regulate the curriculum and they are all the same particularly first year classes. The U.S. News rankings are a complete joke and not approved by any official organization ABA, AALS, and LSAC adamantly states that U.S. is a profit generating B.S. business they disclaim that specficially on their websites. 

No tier 4 is going to fail out half their class or do anything much differently than any other school. Is Touro Harvard not even close! If you go to a tier 4 you won't have people chasing you down for a job, but if you put the work in you will get a job somewhere. You probably won't sit on the Supreme Court or Work in Big law, but if you want to a lawyer then Touro will be fine. You won't be living a jet-setting lifestyle, but not many lawyers do no matter what school they go to.
Title: Re: How bad is Touro?
Post by: Buzzsaw on May 03, 2010, 06:36:24 PM
Thank you guys,

This help me a lot.

From what I have read elsewhere and from what I heard from a person who graduated from a T1 school, I was told that unless you graduate from the top 3 tier schools, you will never find a job and nobody will want to take it if you got your JD from Touro as opposed to NYU or so.

I am not chasing a "jet flying style". While I would certainly like it, I just want a job to practice law and try and help people (idealistic, I know). I know Law School is grueling but I am confident enough in my abilities that I feel I can handle it. I was just worried that with a J.D from Touro, nobody would want to hire me.

Thanks a lot, this helps alleviate a lot of stress that I have been having. Just to explain my situation further, I didnt do too well on the LSAT, but I have great LOR and GPA and applied to only 3 schools that I can commute to, those being Touro, Hofstra and CUNY. Touro and CUNY have a reputation as bad schools that u will never find a job after graduating, thats why I was worried. Touro accepted me, Hofstra put me on the wait list and the last school I am praying will accept me (since I always wanted to go there).

I was just worried that if I cant get into either of the other two, that I would have to go to Touro and then not be able to find any work because like somebody told me, "nobody will take a person with a Touro JD). I guess that was overexaggerated because this person finished a T1 school.

I have a legitimate interest in the Law and I feel prepared for Law School, in some way, I am even intrigued by the challenge because I never really felt challenged in either High School or College and did well. The LSAT killed my chance to top tier schools, but for some reason I have been awful at standardized tests no matter how much I studied...and I studied extensively for the LSAT...

I know I could take a year off and try again next year, but I dont feel it would be a productive year for me and may actually make my application look worse. I am actually finishing college a few years late due to medical situation and really want to get started on what I am truly interested in.


Thank you for your advice, I sincerely appreciate it.
Title: Re: How bad is Touro?
Post by: bigs5068 on May 03, 2010, 06:51:26 PM
I worked at the New York City Law Department and there were numerous CUNY grads and some Touro that worked there as attorneys. Honestly, if you to law school you can find a job if you put effort in.  That is the bottom line if you get into CUNY you should go there, because it is WAY CHEAPER. 

It is true an NYU or Columbia grad will have a benefit over you no doubt about it and I am sure you pieced that together already, but if you go to law school and you pass the bar you are a lawyer. Simple as that don't get caught up in rankings or B.S. that NOBODY gets a job.  I go to a tier 4 and plenty of alumni are doing just fine for themselves and students have good internships etc. Obviously common sense applies and Stanford or Hastings grad will have an edge over me and I accept that.
Title: Re: How bad is Touro?
Post by: byebyeny on May 03, 2010, 06:55:00 PM
If you got into CUNY, go to CUNY. DO NOT GO TO TOURO. Do yourself a favor. This is not a pride game where you tell those around you that you go to a certain school. Do not merely be intrigued by the law, KNOW WHAT THE LAW IS. Why? As soon as you get to law school, you will be surrounded by the people who are very much INTRIGUED BY LAW. Majority of those students have miserable life for 1, 2, 3 or 10 years or more. Why? They don't know what the heck they are doing. If you still have doubts, think about the moment when you have to write $ 1000 paycheck each month to your lender, for the bad experience you had in an institution where you were bashed and stepped on or (if you are lucky) just totally ignored. Be smart. Be doubtful. Don't just smile and think you will somehow be fine.
Title: Re: How bad is Touro?
Post by: Buzzsaw on May 03, 2010, 07:13:05 PM
Thats the problem, I havent gotten a response from CUNY yet. Only Touro accepted me (Hofstra waitlisted me). I am worried because if I dont receive a response from CUNY next week (by the end), I will be forced to send a deposit over to Touro, or risk not going to Law School at all (if Cuny ends up rejecting me).

If I was already accepted to CUNY, I wouldnt be debating anything.

Thanks.
Title: Re: How bad is Touro?
Post by: Exposition23 on May 03, 2010, 07:30:39 PM
BuzzSaw I'm in the same boat as you. Got my Hofstra Wl letter about two weeks ago. The Touro deposit is due the ned of may and no word from CUNY. When did you send in your apps?
Title: Re: How bad is Touro?
Post by: bigs5068 on May 03, 2010, 07:34:15 PM
Wow Byebye benny law school is hard. Were you surprised by that?  You sound quite bitter? Law school is ridcuously expensive and extremely difficult and stressful. If you are not willing to put in a lot of work and realize that 100K is a lot of money to be boring then you will be as bitter as this guy. 

No matter what law school you go to that will be the case.
Title: Re: How bad is Touro?
Post by: byebyeny on May 03, 2010, 08:12:17 PM
That's just your opinion. I don't believe there is anything wrong with warning pre-law students about the reality. Also, there is nothing wrong with being bitter. Maybe your experience was not hard enough for it to make you bitter. Mine was. Absolutely nothing wrong with saying what my/many of my friends' experiences were. Plus, I wasn't talking to you. You seemed to be doing good? Good for you. Remember many people are not doing so well, and doing well in law school has almost nothing to do with one's intelligence, it has a lot more to do with the way you approach the material. What I intend to do by posting is to make these new students realize what they are getting into. Not such a bad intention, eh?
Title: Re: How bad is Touro?
Post by: bigs5068 on May 03, 2010, 10:08:36 PM
Yea it is your opinion, but law school is hard and it sounds like you were surprised by that. There are people in my school that complain about things and say it is to hard etc. However, that is law school it is hard and demanding and I knew that going in. 

This is no offense to you, but I am just curious did you go to law school straight from undergrad? I notice the people at my school  that went straight from undergrad are the most unprepared and complain the most.  I am just curious if that was your case or not.
Title: Re: How bad is Touro?
Post by: byebyeny on May 03, 2010, 10:23:46 PM
Yes, I was. Many 1st year students who come straight from the undergrad are more likely to be unprepared because they were in school just couple months before they started law school. We all know undergrad education is largely about getting spoon-fed knowledge/expressing your opinions. Not only that, the last year of college is considerably more work(larger amount of info to memorize, more papers to say what we THINK is right, etc) After doing all that stuff, you just want to forget about school for a while, and naturally, when you get to LS, you find yourself very unprepared. Unless you are the son of a judge or have siblings who are lawyers, dramatic change in academic setting can be a problem. Having said all that, I don't want to exaggerate the problem, but still, it's better to warn and warn some more than just say 'be happy now and work hard when you get here' I don't think being cynical about people who complain is the way to go. I belive better approach would be try to suggest different approaches and helping people understand that what they are about to get into is a new world. If you have been attending law school for a while, you know it's an unfair game. Life/job opportunities are unfair game. Undergrads (usually) don't fully realize that, esepcially if they got 4.0's and 165 LSAT that confirms their supposed intellectual superiority.
Title: Re: How bad is Touro?
Post by: bigs5068 on May 03, 2010, 11:31:26 PM
I agree 100% I really don't think they should let people in straight from undergrad. You pretty much said what I say on this board all the time, school is nothing like the real world. 

Law School is a little tougher, but a breeze compared to the pressure you will be under if you are an actual attorney. On a final you just need to choose between answers A or B. If you are a real life attorney you make choices that could potentially ruin someone's life or cost someone a million dollars that is real pressure and that is what law school prepares you to do.

I would highly recommend to anyone considering law school to work as a paralegal for a year or two or at least in some substantive job. If you go to law school straight from undergrad you will probably be unprepared. I am sure there are exceptions, but it is not a good idea, because undergrad is a breeze like you said. 

Furthermore, getting a good G.P.A. and a good LSAT score says you have the potential to be a good law student. Just like a 7'0 has the potential to be a good basketball player. However, many there are many 7'0 guys that don't make the NBA and plenty of 6'6 guys that do. Potential is nothing without the appropriate work ethic and life is hard and potential means jack in the real world. 
Title: Re: How bad is Touro?
Post by: byebyeny on May 04, 2010, 12:36:06 AM
You are right on the real job comment. Legal work affects peoples' lives. Would partners teach you the secret of practice? No. Possible consequences are much more severe than merely failing out of school.

GPA/LSAT could be an indicator of aptitude, but then again, aptitude doesn't mean jack sht if you don't know how to play the game. Law school/practice/life/financial management are unfair/difficult because there are certain rules that are well accepted/generally supposed to work if applied correctly, but no one will teach you the rules. Figuring it out is the part that troubles most people.

In this sense, most liberal arts education one receives in college is totally useless. College graduates think they can make rules/arguements (this is well demonstrated by 'jumping to conclusion' mistakes made by numerous law students who think they know what they are doing, but in fact have no clue how to make legal arguments)

I mean, that's horrible quality to have for someone to start law school(or real life). I think paralegal working experience may be valuable not necessarily because you will somehow learn the law from the lawyer guy you are working for, but because your experience of working in a busy legal office and 'seeing' the seriousness of this business called 'the law'. To maximize the benefit of such working experience, I would recommend the paralegals to actually learn substantive law/legal writing skills while they are at it. (But then this would be a bit to much to expect for those who are working full-time)
Title: Re: How bad is Touro?
Post by: mnewboldc on May 12, 2010, 10:08:32 AM
I hear from a lot of students who are headed to T3 or T4 schools that they "don't want" biglaw, etc., and that they'd be satisfied with something more modest. That seems like a reasonable goal, especially to the 0L's trying to make sense of a very muddled employment picture.

I have a friend at a T4 school who says that, of his 3L class of 170 students, about 5 have jobs.

According to another post only 1/3 of the recent graduates at UMinnesota (T25) have responded to an employment survey.

There are plenty of 3L's up here who are still looking for work.

So the problem with schools in the T3 or T4 (and, in this economy, down deep into the T1) isn't that the education they provide is demonstrably different from that up here, or that they don't provide an opportunity to perform high-paying legal work. The problem is that there is very little legal work out available at all right now, and whatever is out there is going to be taken by us, not by people at Tuoro and other schools of that ilk.

Good luck with your networking.
Title: Re: How bad is Touro?
Post by: janeycotley on May 13, 2010, 04:18:55 AM
nice post, you know a bad person can measure in heart,expression and in aura not in face, because not always ugly person looks like a bad one! almost all of them are very nice and kind
Title: Re: How bad is Touro?
Post by: janeycotley on May 13, 2010, 04:22:42 AM
you know you can consider a person if he/she is a bad or not, because you can fell its essence aura, movements  and etc. not always ugly people are bad because there is a time when people saw a ugly one they are bullying it and trust it like a bad one
Title: Re: How bad is Touro?
Post by: bigs5068 on May 13, 2010, 05:19:17 PM
In response to the Cornell guy's post he is absolutely the legal profession is down and so is everything global recission. My dad was an engineer for Boeing and after the Cold War ended the industry had a massive reduction and aerospace engineers were having an incredly tough time finding a job, but sure enough new conflict openend up and now it is a booming industry again.

Right now Real Estate is an utter mess the economy is a mess and lawyers are a service industry and if nobody is doing anythhing lawyers won't have work.  That is the problem right now.

The economy will pick up and America has gone through numerous recissions and it has nothing to do with the quality of your school etc right now.  It is just a matter of supply and demand and right now is a terrible time to gradute from law school, but your degree lasts a lifetime and the industry will pick up. 

A guy who graduated with Aerospace enginnering degree in 1991 had few if any opportunities, but it picked up and it is a good degree to have right now and for the last 10 years it is been so that degree the person earned in 1991 lasted until the present and now he probalby has a good job.

If you graduate law school in 2009/2010 it is not a good time, but it will pick up again and that degree will last a lifetime and things pick up.

Furthermore, coming out of any type of education it is very difficult to get a job. Particularly if your not at Harvard etc, but most t-3/t-4 students know or should know you will have an uphill battle, but plenty of people figure it out.

So in response to the OP if you want to be a lawyer go to Touro if that is your only option. Touro is not Harvard and if you are going to law school expecting to get rich don't go. If you are doing it because you want to be a lawyer then go.
Title: Re: How bad is Touro?
Post by: stareindecisis on July 04, 2010, 10:48:28 PM
Response to the Original Post:

This is purely anecdotal, but the last lawyer I hired to represent me (in traffic court) was a Touro grad working in North Carolina.  He has his own practice there (and NC, as you may know, has plenty of lawyers from plenty of great NC law schools).  He also teaches and judges moot court at UNC Law. 

You've probably made a decision by this point, but I wanted to inject one bit of positivity into this somewhat disheartening thread. 
Title: Re: How bad is Touro?
Post by: bigs5068 on July 05, 2010, 09:56:46 AM
It is this crazy phenomenon that has been happening where law schools teach their students to be lawyers. The reality is if you are good people will figure it out and if your not it will get figured out no matter what school you go to or where you came from. That applies to every single profession not just the law. Jamarcas Russel No #1 Overall Pick, College Champion etc cut after 3 years in the league and known as one of the worst NFL quarterbacks in history.  Tom Brady drafted #221 or somewhere around will be a hall of famer and may the best quarterback of all time. 

It really doesn't matter that much where you came from it is the results you get in the real world. Certainly it helps to be a #1 draft pick or to go to Harvard Law School, but you still need to prove yourself no matter where you came from. If someone goes to TimBuktu State and they throw 100 touchdown passes, or win 100 trials, or make genius business decisions, whatever it may be they will be considered good at their profession.

If you are #1 draft pick and you can't complete a pass you will go down as not very good, if you went to Harvard and never win a case you won't be considered very good, well Wall Street that is all need to say those guys probably all went to great schools and they went to the point of ruining the country they are idiots. George Bush went to Harvard, but I don't think anyone considers him a genius. Obama also went to Harvard and although I don't agree with a lot of his stuff, I think he is very intelligent and I would hire him as a lawyer in a second. Two guys from Harvard one I think is smart the other not so much just continues to show it is up to you not your school to be good at your profession.