Law School Discussion

Applying to Law School => Law School Admissions => Topic started by: benh2os on July 22, 2008, 01:12:14 PM

Title: 170/3.86 Where do I have a shot?
Post by: benh2os on July 22, 2008, 01:12:14 PM
I am looking at IP Law and maybe International Law as well. On my list so far are Columbia, Duke, GULC, GW, UMN, and Washington University in St. Louis. Also George Mason and American as Safeties
Title: Re: 170/3.86 Where do I have a shot?
Post by: justjeffrey on July 22, 2008, 07:32:18 PM
I wish I started this thread.
Title: Re: 170/3.86 Where do I have a shot?
Post by: Laura Roslin on July 22, 2008, 11:24:52 PM
Hey Ben -

Wow, diverse list you have there!  I detect an interest in the NY-DC corridor, the DC area...but then we get UMN and WUSTL, perhaps indicating Midwestern roots like my own.  :D 

I'd say you have a very small shot at Stanford, which is well-regarded for IP - good enough reason to apply, IMHO.  If you're interested in IP, you should also look at Berkeley (they like GPAs). CCN is feasible but not guaranteed - your LSAT might be a bit low, but maybe not.  NYU is your best chance of the three.  Unfortunately, Columbia tends to love high LSATs, which may make it an uphill struggle.  I like your odds at Duke and you should get GULC easily; everything below GULC is a lock.  You don't need the safeties unless you need to stay in DC or want $$$; I'm 95% sure you'll get into GW.  But if you want to be super-safe, I'm sure the other two will give you fee waivers.   ;D

You might want to explore the rest of the T14; I think Michigan, UVA, and NU are all potential options - especially NU.   That said, if you're patent-bar eligible, you're going to be in great shape at a wider range of schools than we lowly social science majors.   ;)  So there might be some sense to taking a scholarship at a lower-ranked school.  GW has a well-regarded IP program, so that might present a good balance.  Good luck!
Title: Re: 170/3.86 Where do I have a shot?
Post by: VirusNY on July 23, 2008, 07:11:47 AM
Out-> HYS

Chances if you ED:
Columbia (30% accepted, 65% reserved, 5% rejected)
NYU (50% accepted, 45% waitlisted, 5% rejected)
Chicago (45% accepted, 50% waitlisted, 5% rejected)
UPenn (70% accepted, 30% waitlisted)
Berkeley (80% accepted, 20% waitlisted)

Chances without ED:
Columbia 20%
NYU 40%
Chicago 40%
UPenn 50%
Berkeley 60%

There is a chance that you might get waitlisted at every single school listed above. Thus, look at the bottom of the t14 as well. I'd say you'll definitely be in at GULC, Duke, Cornell, and maybe Northwestern depending on WE. Out of Michigan and Virginia I think you will be able to definitely snag one and maybe both.

Anyway, good luck.
Title: Re: 170/3.86 Where do I have a shot?
Post by: schmoo on July 24, 2008, 12:00:26 PM
Given your numbers, you're shooting too low.  You safety schools will reject you on the correct premise that you'll end up going to a much better school.

Assuming money is no object, apply to all top 15 or so schools.  You may get money at some places.  Someplace like Texas will very likely give you a fat chunk of change.    You may not have a particularly high chance of admission at HYS, but it's certainly high enough that it's worth applying.

I really wouldn't worry too much at this point whether a school has a strong reputation in intellectual property.  Employers aren't going to worry about this in their hiring decisions -- unless you want to TEACH intellectual property at a law school someday, in which case the issue deserves more weight.
Title: Re: 170/3.86 Where do I have a shot?
Post by: schmoo on July 24, 2008, 12:08:06 PM
Given your numbers, you're shooting way too low.  You safety schools will reject you on the correct premise that you'll end up going to a much better school.

Assuming money is no object, apply to all top 15 or so schools.  You may get money at some places.  Someplace like Texas will very likely give you a fat chunk of change.    You may not have a particularly high chance of admission at HYS, but it's certainly high enough that it's worth applying.

I really wouldn't worry too much at this point whether a school has a strong reputation in intellectual property.  Employers aren't going to worry about this in their hiring decisions -- unless you want to TEACH intellectual property at a law school someday, in which case the issue deserves more weight.  But if you want to work in Silicon Valley and don't have a connection to the area, Stanford or Berkeley might be good choices.
Title: Re: 170/3.86 Where do I have a shot?
Post by: meggo on July 24, 2008, 12:35:02 PM
I agree with the idea of just plastering the top 15 with your app's since you are a bit of a splitter. You're on the low margin of some top schools, but you also have a pretty decent GPA. What I would do in your case, is to make my supporting app's as compelling as possible. OBviously there are those who make up the 25% margin, and the people who do (ie those with lower gpa's and lsat's than the margin but who are still accepted) are generally accepted on the merits of their supporting documents. So make a compelling case for yourself, apply everywhere, and then judge where you want to go after.
Title: Re: 170/3.86 Where do I have a shot?
Post by: hollowman988 on July 24, 2008, 02:52:19 PM
I agree with the idea of just plastering the top 15 with your app's since you are a bit of a splitter. You're on the low margin of some top schools, but you also have a pretty decent GPA. What I would do in your case, is to make my supporting app's as compelling as possible. OBviously there are those who make up the 25% margin, and the people who do (ie those with lower gpa's and lsat's than the margin but who are still accepted) are generally accepted on the merits of their supporting documents. So make a compelling case for yourself, apply everywhere, and then judge where you want to go after.

He's not a 'splitter.' And his GPA is more than 'pretty decent.'  I guess his LSAT score might be a point or two below your average student at the top handful of schools, but that doesn't mean loads. Plenty of people are getting into Columbia and NYU with those #s. 
Title: Re: 170/3.86 Where do I have a shot?
Post by: meggo on July 24, 2008, 03:29:25 PM
yeah I said "bit of a splitter" but I guess what I meant was he was right on the edge of some school's (like Columbia's) median and while his GPA is going to most likely be the median or higher for some top 6 schools, his LSAT will most likely be lower. Hence the 'bit of a splitter'.
Title: Re: 170/3.86 Where do I have a shot?
Post by: benh2os on July 25, 2008, 05:57:40 PM
Do you think I have a shot at GW ED with the full ride?
Title: Re: 170/3.86 Where do I have a shot?
Post by: hollowman988 on July 25, 2008, 07:41:35 PM
Do you think I have a shot at GW ED with the full ride?

Yup. I got the full scholarship offer after my first LSAT, which was 2 points less than yours, and a GPA more or less the same. I don't know what role various types of work experience and other soft factors contribute, but I'd say you've got a good shot (keeping in mind I don't have any idea how this ED program works).
Title: Re: 170/3.86 Where do I have a shot?
Post by: meggo on July 25, 2008, 07:46:29 PM
But why commit to a full ride at GW if you're likely to get admitted and I'm guessing get pretty decent scholarship money from GULC?
Title: Re: 170/3.86 Where do I have a shot?
Post by: schmoo on July 25, 2008, 09:52:32 PM
You have to get it into your head to aim higher.  I don't know what GW's policies concerning full rides are, but if they're in the business of giving them out, I'd think you'd be in the running. 

But don't be too myopic about money.  Yes, full rides are nice.  But you have to consider the kind of salary you'd be making afterward.  The higher ranked the school, the less you have to worry about grades, the better your chances of landing a $160K job or whatever they're paying by the time you graduate.  If you go to a lower ranked school and have the misfortune of doing poorly your first year, that closes lots of doors that could take years to reopen, if you manage to reopen them at all.
Title: Re: 170/3.86 Where do I have a shot?
Post by: schmoo on July 25, 2008, 10:02:04 PM
Don't be myopic about money.  A full ride is nice, but the better the school you attend, the less you have to worry about your grades, the better your opportunities will be.  If you go to a lower ranked school and have the misfortune of doing poorly your first year, that will close doors that will take years to reopen, if they're reopened at all.
Title: Re: 170/3.86 Where do I have a shot?
Post by: GunnerDore on July 26, 2008, 07:40:13 AM
But why commit to a full ride at GW if you're likely to get admitted and I'm guessing get pretty decent scholarship money from GULC?

Check the last cycle on LSN and tell me how many people you see with money from GULC. Then determine how many of those people don't have a comparable or better offer at a higher-ranked school. Additionally, bear in mind that they don't have a big IP scholarship like the other two big scholarships they offer to applicants interested in international law or some other area of law that escapes me at the moment.

OP: Berkeley, Columbia and NYU are probably going to be your best bets for reaches, but since you're interested in IP, go ahead and shoot an app Stanford's way too. Duke has a really good IP program and is probably somewhere in between a target and a safety. Here's where I'd apply:

Reach: Stanford, Berkeley, Columbia, NYU
Targets: Michigan, Duke, Virginia, GULC
Safeties: Vandy, GW, WashU
Title: Re: 170/3.86 Where do I have a shot?
Post by: Budlaw on July 26, 2008, 08:47:58 AM
These types of posts are ridiculous. I'm pretty sure the OP already knows where he had a shot. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. Also, if you do have a 170/3.86, you're obviously a smart individual, so why ask the obvious unless you want someone to stroke your ego?

 ::)
Title: Re: 170/3.86 Where do I have a shot?
Post by: meggo on July 26, 2008, 10:19:30 AM
I kind of agree Budlaw, but ah well.

Sorry, I know nothing about the inner workings of GULC my point was more along the lines of what schmoo was getting at. Why take a full ride from GW (I chose GULC because it seems the OP would easily get in with their numbers and it is in DC like GW) when they are likely to get in at a better school with money, though perhaps not a full ride.
Title: Re: 170/3.86 Where do I have a shot?
Post by: MorningYellofHorror on July 26, 2008, 06:14:05 PM
Even if this kind of post is ridiculous (and it's not), posts about how ridiculous this kind of post is are necessarily more ridiculous.  You can tell what kind of thread it is without even opening it, so don't open it.

To the original poster, definitely apply in the middle of the top fourteen (Virginia, Michigan), as this is the statistical sweet spot for you.  Boalt may be the best school you have a great shot at getting into, but I'd apply at NYU, Columbia, Chicago and Stanford if application fees aren't an issue.

Also, do not apply early decision at George Washington.  Even with a full ride, its value over, say, Duke or Georgetown for IP or international law is debatable, and it'd be a real shame to pass up Michigan or Boalt. And how would you get a full ride applying ED anyway?  Does GW offer some sort special application process?  Ordinarily, ED means passing up merit aid. 

Either way, GW is a safety.  Hell, UCLA and Texas are probably safeties, too, so I wouldn't bother with American, Minnesota and company unless you have a compelling reason to attend one of those schools.
Title: Re: 170/3.86 Where do I have a shot?
Post by: benh2os on July 26, 2008, 07:36:36 PM
Money is a real concern of mine so the offer that GW has (if you get in ED you get a full ride) is very appealing. I had an idea of where I had a shot but I guess my real question is where do I have a shot that will give me some aid. I do not have the means to pay the full tuition at any school, nor do I want to leave school with a ton of debt. Maybe you could tell me if I am over thinking the debt issue. Sorry if this post seemed like I wanted someone to stroke my ego but I am not very confident. I am only 20 and will turn 21 may before law school, my softs are good but not great, and I am unsure of taking on a ton of debt when I know I do not want to work in a huge law firm. I would prefer a clerkship, to teach, or to work in a smaller boutique firm. Again maybe I putting too much importance on debt and not enough on career prospects?
Title: Re: 170/3.86 Where do I have a shot?
Post by: MorningYellofHorror on July 26, 2008, 09:25:24 PM
You are.

At every top 14 school, graduates below the median either get or have the opportunity to get NLJ250 jobs paying market or better.  Market is now 120K/year plus bonus and 160K+ in New York and parts of California and Texas, and it's likely to be a fair bit higher in four years.  There are also government, academic and midfirm/boutique firm jobs that pay very well at entry level, if BigLaw isn't your thing.  While it is frightening to take 100K+ in debt, it's a sound investment.  And listen, you're hardly alone.  Very few of us have the savings (or parents) to pay cash for a JD.

What's far more important is what you want to do.  International law is tough to get out of any school and much tougher outside the top fourteen.  IP is booming and pays very well even outside BigLaw, so if you've got the chops for it those loans won't be any trouble.  For clerkships (federal, which is what I imagine you want), it's important to go to a top school.  For academia, it's essential and you need to make a push for the top six.  The average career prospects are vastly different between the top fourteen and the 20-25 range you're looking at (and shouldn't be anyway-if you want big scholarships, you'll likely get them from UCLA, Texas, Vanderbilt).

Bottom line-debt should be a consideration, but with your numbers it shouldn't be the most important consideration.  If you're really worried about it, use it as a criterion when picking between top fourteen schools, but don't short sell your career for a hundred thousand bucks.
Title: Re: 170/3.86 Where do I have a shot?
Post by: Budlaw on July 27, 2008, 01:19:24 PM
Even if this kind of post is ridiculous (and it's not), posts about how ridiculous this kind of post is are necessarily more ridiculous.  You can tell what kind of thread it is without even opening it, so don't open it.


Actually it is a very ridiculous post. Common sense dictates that the OP would just apply to every top 20 school and see where he lands. Its that simple. He knows that, and so does everyone else.

And BTW, posts about how ridiculous a post's comment on the ridiculousness of a post is even more ridiculous than all other posts.  ;)
Title: Re: 170/3.86 Where do I have a shot?
Post by: MorningYellofHorror on July 27, 2008, 03:00:19 PM
No.  I came into this thread to answer a set of legitimate questions (and it's abundantly clear he had legitimate questions now).  You came into this thread to complain about it.  It happens all the time at forums like this, although rarely to people with 170 or lower, and is really tedious and unhelpful.  It's clear what the thread is about-if you don't like it, just don't open it.

The only people who don't have anything to ask that we can help answer have 4.0/180.  Even if it's just for reassurance or anecdotes or general advice, a poster with 170/3.86 (especially one who was considering binding ED at George Washington) has every right to seek advice here.
Title: Re: 170/3.86 Where do I have a shot?
Post by: Budlaw on July 28, 2008, 12:47:37 PM
No.  I came into this thread to answer a set of legitimate questions (and it's abundantly clear he had legitimate questions now).  You came into this thread to complain about it.  It happens all the time at forums like this, although rarely to people with 170 or lower, and is really tedious and unhelpful.  It's clear what the thread is about-if you don't like it, just don't open it.

The only people who don't have anything to ask that we can help answer have 4.0/180.  Even if it's just for reassurance or anecdotes or general advice, a poster with 170/3.86 (especially one who was considering binding ED at George Washington) has every right to seek advice here.

Just like I have a right to comment on these types of posts as well. If you don't like my comment, then just don't respond to it.

Also, what exactly have you answered that the OP probably didn't already know? I know you like to think that you are being helpful, but in reality, you're not. You aren't adding anything to the table that is not known by anyone already. This is exactly why I think these types of threads are ridiculous. Everyone (like yourself) is just passing on ancedotal knowledge that can be easily attained by just skimming through previous posts. What you have said has been said a thousand times before. In fact, you're probably just regurgitating something that you've read or heard before as well. You (and everyone else who tries to give "advice" on these types of posts) aren't reinvinting the wheel, you're just retreading it.

So yes, I came onto this thread to complain about it. Because quite honestly, I get a little sick of people asking age old questions and then having people like you come along to give age old answers.

And please don't think that I'm personally attacking you or the OP. I'm just stating my opinion on the "ridiculousness" of this type of post.  ;)
Title: Re: 170/3.86 Where do I have a shot?
Post by: MorningYellofHorror on July 28, 2008, 01:09:27 PM
Yes, and again, it's silly and unhelpful.

At any rate, the original poster was thinking about applying ED to George Washington.  There are things he clearly doesn't understand about law school debt and salary statistics, yeah?  Or about his competitiveness for scholarships at better schools?  Yeah, he could find out by digging up the statistics for himself, but instead he asked and several posters (other than yourself) were happy to oblige him as they've been obliged in the past.

More than anything, I think what function these threads serve is psychological.  Many people are going through this process by themselves.  It's comforting to hear from people who have gone through or are going through the same things, and quite often (as in my case) a lot can be learned in the process.  I've since verified what I've heard here with statistics and conversations with my prelaw adviser, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate hearing all the same stuff at these forums first. 

You certainly do not have to like it.  I think it would be polite, however, to let it alone. 
Title: Re: 170/3.86 Where do I have a shot?
Post by: MorningYellofHorror on July 28, 2008, 08:50:44 PM
Just to add, because I've made this comment myself to friends and family when discussing the things I've learned at places like this, I understand where you're coming from.  90% of what happens here is pretty much people who registered yesterday asking for the advice of people who registered last week. 

I still think it's helpful.  Some people haven't discovered the fattening wonders of LSN.  There are people who have visited or who have just gotten in or, even better, who've been at a school for a year or two.  And if nothing else, it's a community around what is a very cold, mechanical process, the nuances of which excite no one but law school applicants (and not even all of them).