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Author Topic: What Test Should I Take To Get A Baseline Score  (Read 2973 times)

ptoomey

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Re: What Test Should I Take To Get A Baseline Score
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2009, 02:37:37 PM »
Jeffort,

No hard feelings here. I understand the need to keep the information here untainted.
There's too much at stake.

I'm definitely not planning to take the Dec LSAT. I'm looking at next June at earliest.
I learned a hard lesson in the perils of under-preparation as an undergrad - I have a 2.6
GPA to prove it. If I do this, I'm going to do it right, and try to put at least 200 - 300
hours of prep time in.

Thanks for the heads up on the authenticity of prep materials. The Powerscore books
seem to get mentioned here a lot. Do they use real exam questions?

Since you've been teaching for many years, maybe I'll take you up on your offer to answer
questions. I'm most confident in my ability to do well on the Logic Games section, because
I've been doing software development for many years. So I essentially solve logic puzzles
for a living. I know the Logic Games on the LSAT are a very specific kind of logic puzzle,
but what I'm saying is that I feel like I probably have the aptitude to do well there with
enough practice.

What I'm not confident about is the Reading Comprehension section - I read like a 5th grader:-)
Well, maybe an 8th grader. In your experience, is it possible to make significant improvement
there? I know it depends on the individual, but can you give me an approximate range of what
you've seen as far as "number of questions improved by".

What about Logical Reasoning? I think I'll be alright there, but it seems like a cross between
reading comprehension and logic, so I'm not so confident. What do you typically see there as far
as number of questions improved by?

While we're at it, I might as well ask the same question about Logic Games. What kind of improvement
do you typically see there? I'm not looking for a money back guarantee - just a ballpark idea of what
kind of improvement people see. Maybe I should start a new thread in the admissions forum asking this
question.

btw, anyone have any advice on how to search this forum. Has anyone had luck using google and providing
the site name? I'm going to try that right now and report back.
I'll try "lsat shill ptoomey site: lawschooladmissions.com"

Just busting chops Jeffort - hope to hear back from you.
Thanks for all the info.

EarlCat

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Re: What Test Should I Take To Get A Baseline Score
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2009, 03:12:26 PM »
We should all pitch in to buy Andrew something really nice for Christmas so maybe he'll get the search button fixed for us. 

Unfortunately, the google search on the home page doesn't work real well.  Best way I know to search is just go manually, or if you know who posted something you want to find, go to their profile and browse their posts.

ptoomey

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Re: What Test Should I Take To Get A Baseline Score
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2009, 03:32:24 PM »
We should all pitch in to buy Andrew something really nice for Christmas so maybe he'll get the search button fixed for us. 

Unfortunately, the google search on the home page doesn't work real well.  Best way I know to search is just go manually, or if you know who posted something you want to find, go to their profile and browse their posts.

Thanks, I did find someone's posts through their profile once, and then I couldn't figure out how to do it next time I tried. I searched for them by name. Is that on the main page? I'll go check and figure it out.

btw, I just tried going to google and typing in "lsat shill ptoomey site:lawschooldiscussion.org", without the quotes, and it found this thread. Not sure how well other searches would work though.

It would still be nice to have a built-in search capability. I'll pitch in.


ptoomey

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Re: What Test Should I Take To Get A Baseline Score
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2009, 03:38:45 PM »
OK, I just tried that same search from the LSD home page and it works from there too.
Somehow I missed that search function on the main page. Thanks. It seems to working OK
for me so far.

Jeffort

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Re: What Test Should I Take To Get A Baseline Score
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2009, 06:37:03 PM »
Jeffort,

No hard feelings here. I understand the need to keep the information here untainted.
There's too much at stake.

I'm definitely not planning to take the Dec LSAT. I'm looking at next June at earliest.
I learned a hard lesson in the perils of under-preparation as an undergrad - I have a 2.6
GPA to prove it. If I do this, I'm going to do it right, and try to put at least 200 - 300
hours of prep time in.

Thanks for the heads up on the authenticity of prep materials. The Powerscore books
seem to get mentioned here a lot. Do they use real exam questions?

Since you've been teaching for many years, maybe I'll take you up on your offer to answer
questions. I'm most confident in my ability to do well on the Logic Games section, because
I've been doing software development for many years. So I essentially solve logic puzzles
for a living. I know the Logic Games on the LSAT are a very specific kind of logic puzzle,
but what I'm saying is that I feel like I probably have the aptitude to do well there with
enough practice.

What I'm not confident about is the Reading Comprehension section - I read like a 5th grader:-)
Well, maybe an 8th grader. In your experience, is it possible to make significant improvement
there? I know it depends on the individual, but can you give me an approximate range of what
you've seen as far as "number of questions improved by".

What about Logical Reasoning? I think I'll be alright there, but it seems like a cross between
reading comprehension and logic, so I'm not so confident. What do you typically see there as far
as number of questions improved by?

While we're at it, I might as well ask the same question about Logic Games. What kind of improvement
do you typically see there? I'm not looking for a money back guarantee - just a ballpark idea of what
kind of improvement people see. Maybe I should start a new thread in the admissions forum asking this
question.

btw, anyone have any advice on how to search this forum. Has anyone had luck using google and providing
the site name? I'm going to try that right now and report back.
I'll try "lsat shill ptoomey site: lawschooladmissions.com"

Just busting chops Jeffort - hope to hear back from you.
Thanks for all the info.


Glad to hear back from you ptoomey and that our minor 'spat' is water under the bridge so to speak. 

Planning ahead and prepping to take the June 2010 LSAT, especially given your other life responsibilities you mentioned sounds like a good idea.  That would give you time to really dig in and get ready for it as well as balancing everything else you have on your hands. 

Yes, the PowerScore books and classes use authentic licensed LSAT questions.  As for self study books for prep, the PS books are by far the best.  I've read and reviewed all of them and compared them to most of the other ones out there over the years. 

Yes, improving your performance on the RC section is very much doable but it is typically the hardest section to improve ones score on, with one of the main factors behind that being that since it is the most boring and tedious section, students tend to avoid it and not dedicate time to practice and review it during study/prep time. 

The logic game section is typically the easiest to improve upon for most people that hit it head on since it is extremely formulaic. 

I suggest that you resist and delete from your mind the thoughts that invite you to spend time comparing yourself to the averages of previous test takers while prepping to try and predict your future improvement/score.  Instead, use that mental power and time you have available to dig into the materials and work on doing things to improve your score.  Statistically, an average represents a group of people, not an individual, and is not a good way to base your decision about how hard to study and work to improve your final score on the real test day. 

Most people (with rare exceptions) totally suck and end up with a low score on the first full real timed LSAT PT they take.  That score is just your baseline/starting point going in cold and is meant to be used to guide your focus in terms of weak areas and strong areas in order to guide your study focus.

Many many people have improved substantially from first timed practice test to final test day score due to dedicated proper study and instruction.   I'm one of those people.  The first full timed LSAT PT I took, going in cold without any prep and no clue about the substance of it and just showing up with some pencils to the first day of a prep course I scored a 151 or 152 (forgot which) and my final score on an administered LSAT that counted is 177.

Basically, you have to want it, put in the work, and fight for it using quality resources and spending a lot of time studying, reviewing and practicing everything unless you are one of the super rare 'naturals'.


ptoomey

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Re: What Test Should I Take To Get A Baseline Score
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2009, 07:42:43 PM »
Thanks for the feedback Jeffort.

I'll definitely pick up the PowerScore books.

Interesting about the Reading Comp section. I can see how that could happen.

You're right about obsessing about how much I can improve my score. I haven't even taken a diagnostic test yet and I'm worrying about how much I can improve. There's a reason though. Since I'm going to be a splitter at best, I'm worried I won't be able to get into a law school that will be good enough to warrant all the effort.

I don't want to dump a bunch of hours into all of this, if in the end, I won't be able to get into a decent school, especially with the economy the way it is. There's really no way of knowing though, so I'm just going to have to put some time in and see how much I can improve.

The problem is I probably need a minimum of 171 to be Considered(according to lawschoolpredictor.com) at Fordham, and that's where I'd like to go. That's a pretty big goal. If it's achievable, I'm up for the work, but I just don't know how high I can possibly score, so I was trying to get a feel for how possible it is to beat the LSAT. I was thinking Brooklyn would be a good enough school, but the more I read about the oversupply of graduates out there right now, I'd be afraid to take the risk.

I know there are probably plenty of people on here at Brooklyn and lower ranked schools, and I don't mean that as an insult. For all I know, I won't be able to score high enough to get into CUNY. But the employment picture out there is scary. It actually doesn't sound like there are many schools that will be a sure thing as far as finding a job, even with good grades.

It's all just a guessing game at this point, though, so I guess I'm just going to have to put in some hours and see how much I improve.

Thanks for all the info.

Atlas LSAT Teacher

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Re: What Test Should I Take To Get A Baseline Score
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2009, 03:41:03 PM »
Some of the basics:  DO NOT study and practice with non authentic LSAT materials that did not appear on a previously administered LSAT.  I looked at the Atlas site and they offer many 'fake' LSAT questions/logic games that were not produced and administered by LSAC and therefore are not REAL LSAT materials. 

The lengthy development, pre-testing, and various other quality control procedures that are based on and controlled by a ton of complex psychometric factors LSAC employs for every question that appears on an administered test in order to ensure they administer a consistent standardized test every administration cannot be duplicated by others.  To say it simply, Friends don't let friends practice with fake LSAT materials.

There are about 60 or so authentic previously administered LSAT tests available for students to use for preparation, so there is no shortage of real materials to use and therefore no need to resort to using synthetic materials.   

Get more authentic LSAT test questions and study, practice and review with those and if you are going to self study rather than hire a tutor or take a class from a quality prep provider, make sure to get quality prep books that only use real LSAT questions.  The Nova press book does not qualify as a quality LSAT self study resource and most of the LSAT prep books you can find on the shelf at book stores are terrible in terms of properly preparing you for the exam. 

For the record and since our name came up, I agree with Jeffort -- your practice should primarily be done with real LSAT questions (which is what we use in our books and courses).  The main reason we write games is to challenge our teachers to understand the inner workings of an LSAT question.  It's actually a good exercise that you might want to try -- start by simply writing a question for a game.  Also, there actually are not that many examples of each specific game type (particularly advanced ones), so we decided to increase the pool with some tougher ones. 

Anyway, good luck with your prep (unless you're really me, in which case I'm just saying that to myself)! 
Noah Teitelbaum
Atlas LSAT Teacher & Director
http://www.atlaslsat.com

Mitchell

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Re: What Test Should I Take To Get A Baseline Score
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2009, 03:46:15 AM »
Anyway, good luck with your prep (unless you're really me, in which case I'm just saying that to myself)! 

With all your shameless self-promotion, you guys don't need shills.
Mmmmmmmitchell