Law School Discussion

Nine Years of Discussion
;

Author Topic: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?  (Read 16378 times)

Matthies

  • LSD Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 5988
    • View Profile
    • Tell me where you are going to school and you get a cat!
Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
« Reply #160 on: May 08, 2009, 05:57:55 PM »
I agree that law school exam grading is totally subjective and your story about the C+/A is a real eye opener.  Based on what you wrote, however, I think we would draw different conclusions from the same set of circumstances. 

From my perspective, the fact that LS grading is so subjective makes it even more important for the administrative playing field to be totally level.  Form and style matter, even if the official line is that theyíre not supposed to.  Then, the state of mind of the exam taker matters (confidence, nervousness, whether or not he/she is rushing) even more than it would on a more objective test.  In my mind, thatís all the more reason to make sure that no student faces any extra burdens during the test administration than does any other.

Iím not saying this is the only way to see this issue, but thatís how I look at it.

All that said, I still maintain that Miss P and the beaver with leg warmers are Hitler and Mussolini, respectively. ;)  This, after all, is the main point of the thread and we shouldnl't veer too far off topic. 



Yea I certainly think there are different ways to see it. I guess I see it the way I see it because Iíve been through this crap for five years now (JD + LLM/MLS) and like I said to you in another thread, nothing in law school surprises me anymore and Iíve given up trying to make sense of it or thinks itís a fair process, its not.

Another example that just happened to me today. I took my last law school exam ever last tonight. Today I get a call from the registrar asking if I turned in my exam. I start to freak out, yes I turned in my exam! They donít have it. No exam for me. The log shows I turned in my exam but its nowhere to be found. There is no copy of the exam. Iím almost hyper ventilating at this point. My last class, last exam and my test is missing. Not at all my fault, registrar has me as turning it, but its gone. So a few more minutes of reconstructing my last moments turning it in and they are able to figure out it got misplaced on a chair. OMG heart attack averted.

But what if they never found it? What then? What options? Retake the test after I already know the questions and can look up the answers? Take a median grade even though I might have gotten an A and I need this class to make honors? Give me an A because they lost it even though maybe I did C work? If they do that then to make the curve work someone has to get bumped down to a A- that deserved an A.

Its not my fault, but what can the administration do to make it right, anything they do screws me for something 100% not my fault and impossible for me to correct for. Itís a classic no win situation. Nothing they can do will make it fair to me or to my classmates. Thank god I did not have to face that dilemma, but I was ready for it. I was ready to get screwed because sometimes that what happens in life. You do everything right and you still get the shaft. What may seem fair to me, give me an A, is not fair to the A- guy. Itís a no win situation without any fair resolution. Thatís life sometimes, poo happens. Sure I would be pissed and mad, but thatís not going to change the fact that it is a losing situation all the way around and nothing can be done to make it ďright.Ē




Yeah, but so what then?  Do you think that if it had not been found (the exam) you should have failed automatically?  I can't believe you do.  I certainly don't.

I'm not sure what the best way to remedy that situation would be, as you indicate it would be tricky.  But surely automatically failing you for their losing the exam wouldn't be on the table as an option.  Not in my universe, anyway.

Yea no way would I have stood for failing when they had my name in the log, had the log not been there then that could have been a real option I guess. I don't know, like I said its an unwinable situation no mater the outcome most likley I, or possible my classmates get screwed. No fair solution to me or anyone else.

But with 800 people turning in exams every semester I canít be the first person this has happened to, and I wonít be the last. Yes itís the registrars fault if it was lost, but again what to do to make it right? Iím certainly not without sin myself, Iíve lost *&^% that was very important to other people to their detriment. Iím not infallible and neither are the best rules to protect this from happing at the registrars office. Accidents happen. I doubt Iíll make it though my legal career without screwing something up that hurts a client even though I had best inteions.  It would not do anyone any good for me to come on here and female dog about the admistration, mistakes happen. It just happened to be my number that got drawn this time, luckily for me we did not have to chose between evils to fix it.
*In clinical studies, Matthies was well tolerated, but women who are pregnant, nursing or might become pregnant should not take or handle Matthies due to a rare, but serious side effect called him having to make child support payments.

This is wrong.

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1453
  • Dear LawDog3...
    • View Profile
Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
« Reply #161 on: May 08, 2009, 06:26:29 PM »

Dude, as far as I can tell you've never contributed so much a coherent sentence in 15 pages.  All you do is provide over-punctuated commentary rife with "LLOz" and "LLOLers" or whatever because you're some super-cool internet insider type who knows how to party and isn't afraid to show it off. 


Aaaaaaaaand I quote:

I'm going to dissect the OP and then provide the analysis.  If you still don't get it then, well... @#!* off and die.

It seems like Third Tier law schools can do nothing right. In this semesterís Drake University Law School Business Associations exam taught by Professor Doreís, the pages in the exam packets were so woefully out of order that students taking the exam were completely unaware of the last two and most heavily weighted questions on the exam. The pages preceding the last two pages containing those questions were actually a repeat of the ďinstructions pageĒ (incompetently inserted into some students packets at least three times) making it appear that the students were almost finished when there were actually 2 more pages waiting for them. In other words, as the students were looking through the pages and saw the repeat of the instructions they assumed the torture was almost over. By the time Dean Henin and other students realized the error, the students had an hour to answer questions with suggested times totaling an hour and half. Not big deal if it happened to everyone right? Think again. In another stroke of Third Tier School genius, 2L and 3L exams are self-scheduledónever mind the concerns about cheating because that would be too obviousóso only a few (un)lucky ones were affected while everyone else gets to pleasure of taking the exam without having to play scavenger hunt for questions.
 
The Deans havenít issued a resolution to problem but it wouldnít be surprising if they blamed the error on a Third Tier copy machine.
 
In this economyófilled with associate deferrals, layoffs, and forced pay-cutsóstudents at smaller Third Tier schools like Drake are already at a disadvantage in a secondary market like Iowa.  Letís hope the Deans donít punish the responsible students who prepared diligently for the exam to take it early while letting procrastinating members of the course enjoy the benefit of a correctly proctored exam earned on the backs of an unlucky few, like myself.
 
-Anonymous

The Steps

1.  Pages were out of order in the exam.
2.  The instructions page was inserted numerous times in the wrong spots, leading to confusion.
3.  Some students missed the last two questions because of this error... that is, until they had an hour left (rather than the allotted hour and a half).
4.  This was an administration of a self-scheduled exam.
5.  As a result, only a small proportion of students taking the exam experienced this series of events.
6.  Putative: Early exam takers are diligent while later (self-scheduled) exam takers are procrastinators.
7.  Putative: The procrastinators will benefit from this error at the diligent's expense.

Do we agree on this so far?  I would find it difficult to believe that we don't agree on this much.  It's all right there in the post above.

The Analysis

So whose fault is it?  You posed this as the central dilemma earlier, and I don't think anyone really disagrees.

1.  It's not the students' fault that the exam was out of order.  That much is certain.  But that's not the issue.
2.  The issue is this: could the students have prevented any part of this?  The answer is simple: yes.  A quick scan of the exam would have revealed the flaws.  At the most, it would've cost 5 minutes of their time. 
     [A.  Nowhere is it made clear just how many of the students actually made this mistake and lost out on half an hour of writing time.
     B.  We are thus left to assume that all of the students in this particular administration of the exam made this mistake.  I doubt this, but I'll let it go.]
3.  Did this place them at a disadvantage compared to students who took a correctly proctored exam?  Yes.  Slightly.  And here is the error of your argument.
4.  It is fallacious, once the result is known (i.e. that these students "lost" 30 minutes of exam time), to look back and assume that this result is the only (or the most likely) outcome of the particular set of circumstances listed above in Steps 1 and 2.  How does this apply?
5.  A very obvious, simple, and extremely common step would have salvaged the situation completely, putting this group of students on par with any of the other "procrastinators" who did not "suffer" from this odd set of circumstances.  This step, as exam takers are prompted to do before every exam, is to quickly read through the exam to make sure things are in order and things make sense.
6.  You know what?  Hey, that's exactly analogous to the anecdote I related!  You see...
7.  The "procrastinators" are irrelevant here.  They didn't get a substantially different exam.  According to the OP's story, they simply got an exam with a few less pages.  In other words, their exams didn't have duplicated instructions anywhere.  The questions were exactly the same.  They were in the same order.  They had the same time allotments.
8.  It's because of the ease, simplicity, and obviousness of the remedy that would have prevented any of this bitching and moaning (i.e. checking your exam before you plunge into it) that people in this thread who are normally extremely forgiving are turning to the "personal responsibility" argument you detest so much.
9.  That "argument", as you frame it, by the way, is a red herring.  These posters are empathetic.  Most of us have been through something similar.  It really, really sucks.  But given the parameters as framed by the OP, (a) the duplicate pages were really not that big a deal, and (b) the whole situation could've been avoided, so (c) why would you punish wholly innocent students for it?
(10.  Perhaps, if the OP is so "diligent", she might have been more "diligent" in reading through her exam before starting it?  Mmm?)


ETA:  Replaced a key word I accidentally erased before posting.

Comment: next time, respond to an argument BEFORE you pretend someone's just a troll.

(Not that I'm saying I'm not a troll, of course.)
I do not like hats.
I do not like them on bats.
I would not like them near cats.
I would not like them made out of mats.

This is wrong.

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1453
  • Dear LawDog3...
    • View Profile
Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
« Reply #162 on: May 08, 2009, 06:32:21 PM »
My opinion is that, if the administration makes a mistake that's likely to disadvantage some students, they should make up for it.  As I admitted, there's a lot of grey area.  Still, I think that there are at least some situations that can and ought to be remedied.

And, within this context, you're wrong.

1.  This mistake did not lead to a severe disadvantage.
2.  The potential remedies are unfair to other students.

Now please stop creating alts to populate this thread in your own support.  You're completely transparent.  We played your game for a while because it's kind of fun, but you should know that it's not particularly novel.  If you feel so aggrieved, try talking to your Dean again.  If they tell you to @#!* off a second time, it's because they're right.  But who knows, maybe your diligence will pay off, oh Diligent One.
I do not like hats.
I do not like them on bats.
I would not like them near cats.
I would not like them made out of mats.

ISUCKATTHIS

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 261
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
« Reply #163 on: May 08, 2009, 06:43:55 PM »
My opinion is that, if the administration makes a mistake that's likely to disadvantage some students, they should make up for it.  As I admitted, there's a lot of grey area.  Still, I think that there are at least some situations that can and ought to be remedied.

And, within this context, you're wrong.

1.  This mistake did not lead to a severe disadvantage.
2.  The potential remedies are unfair to other students.

Now please stop creating alts to populate this thread in your own support.  You're completely transparent.  We played your game for a while because it's kind of fun, but you should know that it's not particularly novel.  If you feel so aggrieved, try talking to your Dean again.  If they tell you to @#!* off a second time, it's because they're right.  But who knows, maybe your diligence will pay off, oh Diligent One.

Now you're accusing me of being the Drake university student who started this thread?

Dude, you're a f@cking freak.  I'm a patent agent in a large city on the east coast.  I didn't even know where Drake university was until I googled it.  In fact, no offense to OP, when I read the thread the first time I thought it was Duke.

You're an ass and you are not worthy of my time. 

luke

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 501
    • View Profile

This is wrong.

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1453
  • Dear LawDog3...
    • View Profile
Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
« Reply #165 on: May 08, 2009, 06:46:40 PM »
must be finals time

Hilarious. 

I hate this incarnation of you.  Much too schoolmarmish.
I do not like hats.
I do not like them on bats.
I would not like them near cats.
I would not like them made out of mats.

This is wrong.

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1453
  • Dear LawDog3...
    • View Profile
Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
« Reply #166 on: May 08, 2009, 06:50:32 PM »
My opinion is that, if the administration makes a mistake that's likely to disadvantage some students, they should make up for it.  As I admitted, there's a lot of grey area.  Still, I think that there are at least some situations that can and ought to be remedied.

And, within this context, you're wrong.

1.  This mistake did not lead to a severe disadvantage.
2.  The potential remedies are unfair to other students.

Now please stop creating alts to populate this thread in your own support.  You're completely transparent.  We played your game for a while because it's kind of fun, but you should know that it's not particularly novel.  If you feel so aggrieved, try talking to your Dean again.  If they tell you to @#!* off a second time, it's because they're right.  But who knows, maybe your diligence will pay off, oh Diligent One.

Now you're accusing me of being the Drake university student who started this thread?

Dude, you're a f@cking freak.  I'm a patent agent in a large city on the east coast.  I didn't even know where Drake university was until I googled it.  In fact, no offense to OP, when I read the thread the first time I thought it was Duke.
 

 :D :D :D
I do not like hats.
I do not like them on bats.
I would not like them near cats.
I would not like them made out of mats.

Matthies

  • LSD Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 5988
    • View Profile
    • Tell me where you are going to school and you get a cat!
Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
« Reply #167 on: May 08, 2009, 09:04:54 PM »
serioulsy how in the hell did this thread get to 18 pages in two days? I start athread about the compleat meltdown of the legal industry and it gets like five hits, this drivel spans on and on. And where the hell is Drake anyway?
*In clinical studies, Matthies was well tolerated, but women who are pregnant, nursing or might become pregnant should not take or handle Matthies due to a rare, but serious side effect called him having to make child support payments.

ISUCKATTHIS

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 261
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
« Reply #168 on: May 08, 2009, 09:06:31 PM »
Drake is somewhere in Iowa.

Matthies

  • LSD Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 5988
    • View Profile
    • Tell me where you are going to school and you get a cat!
Re: Drake Law Faculty Bumbles Writing Exams, Will Students Suffer?
« Reply #169 on: May 08, 2009, 09:10:03 PM »
Drake is somewhere in Iowa.

is it ranked below me so that I may mock it?

Also this thread is geting more hits than an AA oone, I may have to kitty bomb it
*In clinical studies, Matthies was well tolerated, but women who are pregnant, nursing or might become pregnant should not take or handle Matthies due to a rare, but serious side effect called him having to make child support payments.